 Welcome everyone to the May 11th meeting of the wards one and eight neighborhood planning assembly. I believe that we have three people here in the room. Do you want to introduce yourself. I'm Keith bills graph and university terrace and Ward eight. I'm Tom Darenthal I'm the facilitator tonight. I'm from Ward one. And online, it looks like we have three people Jonathan Jonathan chapel circle. North prospect street and Ward one and a member of the steering committee. There's an echo. Kathy Kathy all well. It's one and eight East district school commissioner and I live in Ward one. And Kathy, I mean, Cindy. Yeah, hi I'm Cindy I live on East Avenue and Ward one. And Jack. Hi, everyone, Jack can't send the East district city counselor. I live on college street and more day. Right. Welcome to tonight's meeting. We're going to start with speak out. So if people have things that they want to bring up. Now's a good time. If you're online and you raise your hand. Hopefully I'll be able to catch that or can they just show a hand, a virtual hand. And then, so Cindy, you want to start. I can't hear you. You're on mute. Sorry, I thought I'd unmute it. I'd just like to ask that at a future meeting, we talk about transportation on East Avenue, both sidewalks and the road. And I think that's one of the DPW's plans for traffic calming. They, they'd promise they'd get back to us and it's been quite some time. We'd love to hear what DPW is doing and my guess is there might be other think topics should Chapin or somebody from DPW come to another meeting, a future meeting. That's it. Was there anyone who that you've been in contact with that we should contact to. Well, I've been going to Chapin because some of the folks that work for him, frankly, are not as responsive as they could be. So, and I understand there's a, there's some turnover there. So I would suggest starting with either Chapin or Nicole Losh. Okay. And the high level chain we can get the better because. Yeah, obviously. Okay. I have a letter from and Brenna that she wanted me to read tonight. Hi Tom, and Keith, I wanted to respond to Emily's comments at the MPA. So thanks for the opportunity. I live right across the street from her. I disagree with her that college students are not a huge part of the housing problem, at least in the downtown neighborhoods. The market forces definitely favor converting former single family homes or duplexes into college student housing. Students reported student body numbers are incredibly hard to make sense of, but the numbers seem to keep drifting up. The goal of the city should be to prevent the conversion of entire neighborhoods of student housing, and even to convert some existing student rentals to long term tenants when possible. This was the whole point of the neighborhood project. The city needs to be part of that goal. I'm very happy they are building on the Trinity College campus, but I'm less convinced that it wasn't that I was then I was in the beginning that this is going to have the desire to impact. Second is single family homes. There aren't many left in this neighborhood, but there are people with families who would love to have a single family home. There are more families and children. The city also needs more one and two bedroom apartment, but both things can be true and can be a goal. I am fully in support of moving ahead with city place, and I'm hoping the former why will be converted to housing, open to everyone and not just students. Third, when UVM students graduate, they can't afford to live here and they move away. The neighborhoods need more recent college grads who are working and ready to become permanent members of the Burlington community. Hell, maybe even long enough to start families on their own. And. Okay, thanks. Richard anything. Anything else from people online. Okay, we're going to move forward then to city council updates. I've got three things on on the agenda. It's the Trinity Trinity project city place and public safety and Jack, I think you're the loan counselor representing the city council tonight. Okay, yeah, I can, I can speak. I don't have a ton on those items. I was just messaging with Brian Pine, the former city counselor and director of the community and economic development office, which is from the city side, the lead on the city place project. And he let me know that there's going to be an update coming very soon. And with these updates, you know, it's, it's usually a mix of what they're able to share in public session as well as executive session for council, but we haven't gotten any public or executive session updates in quite a while on city place, but he's telling me that it's coming very soon. So should have more information on that. But, you know, the last time we did have updates, it was, you know, pretty promising that things were moving forward. Finally. And then in terms of the Trinity, similarly, we haven't had a super recent update on that. I can ask Brian about that as well. And if he if he gets back to me during the meeting I can give any updates he has on that front. And something I definitely wanted to let you all know about it's not in those three categories, but on Monday we actually change the criteria for the property tax lag relief program. I'm not sure if you all remember this but back in, I believe October the council had passed a program to basically give give property tax relief give direct basically give money back to property tax payers who saw a large who are income sensitize and who saw a large increase in their assessment due to the reappraisal last year. And we actually adjusted the criteria for that so there's probably some new folks that are now eligible. So if you own property and it's worth less than $550,000. It's increased by more than 40% through the reappraisal, you're eligible and and you have to also be receiving a state property tax credit meaning your, your income is low enough to get a state property tax credit. You're eligible to get money from the city to cover the lag and in the updated credit. So, yeah, hopefully that applies to some folks in. You know who are listening or people you know I didn't I didn't see the breakdown by by Ward of of who this is going to impact but previously it was 500,000 was the cutoff for the property value and it was had to be a 50% increase. And it was $550,000 and it only has to be a 40% increase that you experienced due to reappraisal so it's a bigger group of people now that are eligible for that. Excuse me, Jack, but my understanding is the city will be contacting people who, who they believe are eligible is that right. Yes. Yeah, great. Yeah, the city will if for some reason you if you feel like you fall into that and you're not getting contacted definitely let me know but yes. I think it's for everyone in that category to get something in the mail saying you're eligible for this money. You do have to have been impacted economically by covert though as well is the other criteria. So, yeah, I have to just step away for just two seconds to pull something off the stove but I'm happy to answer people's questions and talk about. People want to talk about but I just wanted to give those updates. I'll be back in two seconds just going to take something off the stove. Great. Do folks see I do folks have questions or issues they want to discuss further Jonathan. This week, several of us on my street and see reassessments of our houses. We all got big reassessments last year mine was 58% well since 2018, and we got another reassessment just this week and what's that all about. That's interesting Keith yeah that's that's the first I've heard of that. So I'm not sure but I can I can definitely email the assessors office and just ask them what you know what's going on right now around that. It could be. Go ahead. No no Cindy go ahead. I was just going to make a joke that we had so much fun last time around why we do. Did you close any permits in the past year. Keith. I did get a permit of occupancy two weeks ago. I mean it's possible that if you close the permit they went and took a look again but you should definitely you should, you got till I think the 19th to appeal it and you definitely should. What I have to appeal it. It's a new, it's a new assessment right so if you like it. It's great if you don't like it then you should ask. I don't, I don't, I have no they gave me no reasons why why they increase increase so I guess we got to start somewhere. If it's helpful Keith all the email the city assessors office and CCU and just ask them why this is happening you said it wasn't just you you said it was a few people right. Yeah was several people and they were as surprised as I was, I don't know. Okay. So, Jack just for your, you probably know this but you would not be the only city counselor who was, who is helping out people who got reappraisals. So I would definitely urge if you can ask them ask the assessors office. I had another question. It's about just cause eviction and the governor's veto of it nice. I've supported just cause eviction all along. I think it's a good thing but when the governor vetoed it. I started to give some thought to what are the disadvantages what are the problems now he has his own set of concerns about it that caused it to be to be vetoed and then certain legislators had their opinions which made it not get overridden. But I started thinking about Burlington and I started thinking about the East District. And what is there in and I don't remember all the details of the of the ordinance but are there are there any controls in in the just cause eviction. It seems to me that if it's harder for a landlord to to evict tenants. So landlords may tend to work towards putting transient renters into their homes like students, because then they're pretty much assured turnover in the course of a couple of years. Is there anything in that in the ordinance that would that would disincent that I don't I don't think so I'm trying to think about it. Yeah I don't I don't think there's a distance well to be clear there's no ordinance right this was we we saw this charter change and if it had been approved we would have then made ordinances and we could we could but we could put whatever we want in the ordinance as long as it complies with the charter change so we had we would have the ability to put in you know different restrictions and such the charter change lays out some out of bare minimum exemptions to the ban on no cause evictions there's baked in but we could also do others by ordinance as well but that's not going to happen because we didn't get the charter change so yeah I don't think there was anything baked into the charter change that would specifically address what you're saying Jonathan. If it had passed it would be a worthwhile discussion of, you know how to potentially look at that in the at the ordinance level but we, we don't have the authority so it's a difficult one to get at anyway because you know how do you how do you a question people about their long term plans and it's but it's an interesting point Jonathan. Jack, I wanted to ask a question about the tax the property tax relief, just yeah, is for perspective and round numbers how many properties do you think are going to be impacted by that. Yeah, I wish I had the exact number right at my fingertips. I think it was in the range of maybe between three and 400 additional properties that we're now bringing in to the program. And the reason we did this is because the first round of relief, we allocated I think it was a million dollars towards this program when we opened it in October and many of the people that were eligible that were potentially eligible because again we don't know who was impacted by the pandemic or not that's the one variable where we can't pull data on that. But either way like it didn't get a lot of the people that we thought were maybe eligible didn't apply or didn't apply for it didn't receive the relief and so we have a lot of money left over so we decided to actually expand it. We are going to reach back out to all of the initial people that were in the first pool as well as these extra this extra group which I think is like in the 300s. Yeah, that it was mostly the the lowering of 40% increase to 50 50% increase down to a 40% increase. That was where the bulk of the new properties became eligible, raising the property value up to 550,000 only added less than 100 new properties I forget the exact number. Okay, but you're talking about hundreds of properties, not a few thousand. I think it was in the 300. Yeah, between 300 and 400 that are now eligible and they get you the max anyone could get is $2,000. It's really this is a one time program to supplement the fact that the state, you know the state property tax credit. There's a lag where you wouldn't get the full credit until a year later that that you were entitled and so this is really meant to fill in that gap and make sure that you're getting that you're not getting hit for one year with this much higher than you normally would. Thanks. Yeah. Jack, thanks for explaining that. I'm pretty sure that we would qualify for sex year 2022 but not for 2021. How does one go about that because my wife retired and we lost her income so that makes a quite a difference. Yeah, we might want to talk offline about that and figure out if you're eligible based on current income versus because yeah, I think the program is based on what you previously most received as a property tax credit rather than current income. So, yeah, send me an email and I can I can see if if you would be eligible because that's a unique situation. Yeah, yeah, great. Thank you very much and and being affected by COVID is a bit subjective isn't it. Yeah, we didn't get super specific in the council resolution so I think it is somewhat at the discretion of, I think it's the, yeah the CAO's office whoever on the administration is implementing the program. I think it's pretty discretionary. If someone's, I think if someone basically says says here's how I was impacted by COVID. And it, and it, you know, it passes the straight face test I don't know exactly I'm, I don't know exactly how they determine whether or not that's true or not. Okay. Okay. Thanks very much. Yeah, I don't I don't think it's a super high bar I don't in order to show the city that you were in fact impacted I don't think you have to like provide a bunch of documentation to show that. But, yeah. Thanks. Are there other questions for Jack seeing none. Jack thank you very much. Thanks everyone. We're going to move to the school board commissioners update. I don't hear if my camera's off it's because I'm getting food and stuff but I'm listening to everything's just want people to know that even if my camera's off I'm always listening so smell it. Hi, so S 287 passed in both the Senate and the house and is sitting on the governor's desk waiting to be signed into law. So I personally and I know the whole school board wants to thank everyone, all of you that were letters that telephone that talk to your legislators and I also want to also thank the city council for having written a letter of support for this. It's, it really wasn't they admitted it was people all across the state, coming out in support of this thing so it's wonderful. It's, it's been passed with all the weights intact. There are a few things on it that we'll have to see they've, they want to the state to hire for people in the department of that to oversee parts of it and they want studies done on parts of it but, you know, the way it looks right now it will be also will be in 2024, it will be enacted so that we will start seeing those the difference in tax. You know what what we pay in taxes and how much our taxes will produce for education in in this city. And the other thing I was asked to and does anyone have questions on that. One quick question. Cindy, why don't you go first. I just was hoping Kathy that you could explain briefly what the act is I'm not sure that everybody that's watching will will know what that what the act involves. Well, it's, it is the waiting study and that is that students up until now students have always been weighted in education so we know that it costs more to educate a child in poverty. A child who English is not their first language costs more to educate a high school or a middle school kid than it does a grade school kid. And in order to equal out the funding for education. Children are counted as one child, if they happen to be English, learning English as a second language. They get, I don't remember in the weights there's a certain like they get counted then is two and a half children. And if they're living in poverty they get counted for two I think it was 2.3 I don't know the exact weights on them. But there are different weights put on them. These weights were not correct when Act 60 was enacted in 90. I don't remember 98 something like that in the 90s late 90s. They didn't have the correct weights that they didn't do any scientific study on those weights they just kind of put weights to the kids what somebody thought was how much more it will cost to to educate that child but in the meantime I mean there are studies that have been done and so there was a big study that the legislature had paid for, which was UVM Rutgers University, and the American Institute of Education, did this huge study on the weights and what was the most equitable weights put on education educational differences across the country and looked at it at Vermont and act 60 and 68 how we fund education so on the on the when the tax is coming in for education. We are, we have one of the most equitable laws in the country, but in how we then divvy that money up amongst our school districts, we were kind of way off the mark and this s 287 will now make that all far more equitable but believe me, it's not all over but this is a huge step in the right direction for Burlington and for one new ski. And, oh and I didn't say also for children, living in rural sparsely populated areas that was another weight that that people were doing. Thanks, Kathy. Is there any other questions. Yeah, I had a quick question you said that the House and Senate passed it. Now, is the governor expected to sign it. Well, someone told me they heard today or yesterday on the radio that he's planning to sign it. He just hasn't signed it yet. I mean, as long as he doesn't veto it we're okay if he doesn't sign it. It's not going to long when the when the legislature closes on Friday but but it would be nice to know that he supports education and the equity of education. So, let's hope he signs it. He's, he told someone evidently that yes he was planning to sign it. He just went. So, and anybody else have any questions on that. And the next thing I was asked to talk about was the high school, the, you know, which one of the concepts was the one that we voted on in the school board. This is a large picture of an I don't know if I this it was, it was see and if I hold it up tell me if you can see that it, it will face directly on to Institute Road with what I'm seeing on the right is going to be towards North Avenue. And, and pretty much this is the only thing we were voting on it, it is of the five that we were given to choose from. It was the most economic. I'm not going to say the cheapest because none of these are exactly what probably anybody would call cheap but they. It had everything pretty much that we could want now the whole inside of this building and everything about heating, because they are looking into geothermal to do that. If it's possible on that site if there is geothermal that has been planned to be put into there as well but this, the sighting of it. All five buildings were pretty much the same size. It's just because that's the size we're going to need. And this one was see was 100 and 181.3 million is what. And we literally had to just get this done in order to start for them to start doing really the plans inside with everything that entails and then we will have more of an idea of what it is truly going to cost and what is the price tag we're going to put out to the voters. And that has to be finished by the end of August to be on the November ballot. So that's kind of the push there will be there will be other input gathering meetings for the community. There'll be other questionnaires that will go out I assume many of you saw the questionnaire that went with this. Because we got the feedback from what everybody in the city had answered to kind of make that decision we got kind of the gist of what people were willing to pay for. And I will say we had, we just had a meeting last night and we are now starting to go out and look for other funds so I eat Tom I will get a hold of you but it was just last night. Okay. Good. I think there's a, there's a new owner of Twitter who has pretty deep pockets. Oh, wonderful. So is there any more questions anybody is there something I missed that you want to know. I've got a question, a school question but it's not about the high school. Oh, okay. Answer and sure. Go ahead. There was, I guess during the beginning and middle of the COVID. There was federal funds to support school lunches. Yes. And now what I've heard is that people who have family income of less than $30,000 or more than. The $30,000 family income cut off and if you make more than that then you don't qualify for a free lunch. Is that true and I don't know if it's that I'm, I'm not sure what the federal poverty guidelines are, you know exactly. That's how it used to be, but Burlington, and, and this is still the question out there for the last, though, many years before so five years before COVID ever started. We had such high free and reduced lunch counts at most of our schools that the whole district got free and reduced lunch. There was breakfast, lunch and dinner, and a snack free to all children in Burlington. And they change now with this. I don't know enough about what is going on now I know there was, there was a bill in the House and Senate, asking to use monies from the recovery for one year to continue that free and reduced lunch for all schools but a lot of that depends truly on how economically well off a district is whether everybody in it is free and reduced or not, and I just know we were further. But if, even if that continues I don't know if there's changes that are going to come I don't know what you heard Tom. It was that hunger free Vermont was an advocating using some of the surplus funds to do a study of one year to see what the effect of having free and reduced lunch continue. It seemed unreasonable in that hey if we think we've already done this so we know that it has an impact. And so if we want to continue let's just do it, but to just say we're going to study it more seemed disingenuous. I think we should do it. I just think that we should just say we're going to pay for it. But then, but the money that's there is only for one year, there's only enough in the, in the COVID money to do this across the state for one year. So, and, which would be fine to do it, but I don't even know whether that past or not I know. There was a lot of talk but I don't think they have have decided all the excess funding in the state education fund where they're going to spend it yet. So. Okay. We have other questions and education. Keith. If I could just question. Kathy when I look at the picture that you showed in the paper, they seem to have up in the upper left corner. Administration building. Yes. Administration building. No. Yes, it is. It is proposed there and the site could be used but that it came to so much more money that this the superintendent said no that we would put in for another time. No, it's not being built when the high school is being built. And any other questions, Jack, did you have, were you going to say something? Yeah, I had, I had my virtual hand raised. I just wanted to say, well, first of all, great news about the geothermal Kathy I'm glad to hear that you are looking at that for the height new high school. You'll see, I just wanted to say about the waiting at the, you know, the state level change that that's huge. I just really want to thank you, Kathy, you've been such a strong advocate on this for so long and it's a really big deal. It's really important for everyone in Burlington and all these other communities that have been getting short changed. So just want to thank you. I'm a little hesitant to celebrate early and I don't know what's going to happen. This is this is pretty monumental so thanks for sharing it and just thanks for all your work on it. Thanks. But also thank you I don't know if you heard because you were off but please give our thanks to the city council because it meant a lot having the city council backing us on this as well. I can't hear that and yeah it was it was easy. I mean, you know, it was easy for us to do that but I think you've done a lot of like work so super meaningful and yeah really glad to hear that's finally happening. Yeah, I am too. Thanks. All right, there's no other questions. Kathy thank you very much. We're going to move ahead to the community development block grant update is Cindy still. I am on. Hi. Hi. So, is Hannah honest. I don't believe she is. My intent tonight was to describe what what the community development block grant sorry because I think the term gets thrown around a lot and I don't know if people understand it so I just wanted to quickly go over what that is. And that is it's a program. So federal program and illustrated administered by HUD and HUD makes grants to communities like Burlington, and then Burlington has the opportunity to use that money to assist low and moderate income households with a number of different points, and that includes affordable housing, economic opportunities and addressing barriers there too, and suitable living environment and that's that includes things like providing assistance to victims of domestic violence that kind of thing. Burlington gets this chunk of money. There's an advisory committee that Hannah and I both said on that works with with CEDO the Community Economic Development Office to make to allocate the amount of money that we have, and we were quite lucky this year and that the amount of applications that are the dollar value of the applications that came in was moderately close to what we had. Most of the entities that put in for funding received close to if not all of what they had applied for, and there are a number of them and my memory is not that good. So I just, it would, if you're interested in which applications we've recommended receive how much money I'd encourage you to go to the city website, because it would take quite a bit of time and I probably wouldn't get it quite right of who got how much. But generally speaking, most of the applicants received close to what they'd asked for. So, a lot of great applications and a lot of good work going on out there. So, there was a broad overview I was hoping that Hannah would fill in some of the details but unfortunately she's not here so any any questions or Hannah might come in 1020, 720. Just to comment, we're running ahead of schedule. Okay. It's about 711 now and the site I'm most familiar with is 720, maybe an hour or two. I couldn't quite understand that Tom but may I suggest that if Hannah has information about details that she wants to about particular projects that she wants to add that if she comes in at 720, then we'd give her the opportunity to do that. Sure. In the meantime, do people have particular questions or Great. Thanks. Well, we're in a certain unusual position because we're usually struggling to make up a few minutes and keep ourselves on track but it turns out that where it's here at 712 that our next I know which is the main item tonight is a housing panel. I was just saying, I'm not sure if you heard it that we are running a little bit ahead of schedule. So you're saying that this time was very, very good time. Propitious. We planned it that way. All right, and even you're going to do is like the experience previously is putting forward a set of questions and then the audience can ask their questions. So it seemed like the appropriate things right. Focus on housing situation in the district. And this is kind of a momentous month for those of us who live in the student rental area because they're going to be, be saying goodbye to a lot of our neighbors. And we're going to welcome me to the whole new set of neighbors after two months. It's a big time our students are ready for exams and they'll be leaving sometime three down the end of the month and with the welcoming people on our streets. So it's time to talk about housing and housing situation in the district. I'll just go through the questions and try to make your own comments. Obviously, you know the way perspective, but I'll let you answer the question. So I'll leave you on. I'll go back. It's fine. I'll get clarified. I'm sure that people in the audience will clarify, ask clarify questions. Okay. Yeah, so I can take this first one. Brian and I will kind of trade off as applicable, but at this time, the only proposal that the planning commission has heard about is the University of Vermont's proposal to the City Council and the planning commission. And so that is one of the major items that's on the planning commission's work plan for the coming months. In both the presentation from at the city council and the planning commission. Richard Kate from the university delivered the kind of context for what the university is thinking about for Trinity campus, as well as some specific requests for us to revisit the zoning. At this time, that's our main focus at the planning commission level. And I would just add, I think Keith is that the planning commission, you know, really handles land use and policy. They don't review specific development proposals. And so it was kind of like a question that had both. What are you looking at for land use and policy maybe and also what developments do we know about. Student specific. So the DRB reviews specific projects whereas the commission is the entity of course that looks at policy and and implementing or putting policy into effect for the land use goals of the city. But the university has mentioned in conversation I believe it was mentioned in public public session. When last time we had a presentation and Lisa's here she can certainly correct me if this isn't correct but that this is the beginning of what the university is is envisioning as far as expanding the supply of student housing that Trinity is the focus now but that that is something the university has indicated is that there are areas near watermen and to go spree in that may in fact be, you know, not too far down the road for repurposing and it would require some rezoning as well. There's a lot of surface parking there I don't have any acres but there's quite a bit of surface parking lot. There's a lot of space between those properties and I don't think the hospital is going to hold on to to goes bring in as a as a use forever so there's some opportunity there as well. Right. I think that as you mentioned at the beginning Keith, housing is a big focus of the cities right now, whether that is within our departments or the planning commission or and many other and a big part of that work is trying to identify places in the city where we can make our zoning policies our land use policies that Brian was talking about make it easier for us to create new homes. And that's really to help us create new homes of all types. So one of the things I think within that kind of framework that will have the biggest impact on the area of the city that you all live in those specific kind of streets that you mentioned Keith. Is really this Trinity campus zoning amendment and trying to help work with the institution to identify how that zoning could be more permissive of them building a large number of student beds on the Trinity campus. And like Brian said to, you know, after Trinity were certainly open to talking with the institutions about other on campus sites and areas of the campus, if we need to consider other zoning amendments to help enable the reuse of of parts of campus to accommodate more beds, you know, we're certainly happy to be a partner in that conversation as well. But yeah, definitely from the perspective of how do we address the housing challenges and the housing availability. challenges for both, you know, long term residents and student residents who might be here. A big part of it is helping identify more places for people to live. So that's a big focus of our work. And I would just add that the. The work that the community did the city planning CEDO community residents, many of folks in this meeting were involved around the Burlington neighborhood project is something that contained a number of goals and objectives that were aimed exactly at what you're referring to key to this question, creating more balance is something that, you know, is, I think a pretty widely held as a consensus that we need to constantly strive for, you know, ensuring that we have, you know, more heterogeneous neighborhoods and not have, you know, very significant out of balance in terms of honestly students living off campus I think is just, you know, to be not to target or to sort of blame students for all the problems but in some neighborhoods, there are, you know, real quality of life challenges because it's just a preponderance of students living in neighborhoods and so I think we all know we've all seen it we've all have friends some people in this, these words in your words live right among significant numbers of students and it just presents real, real challenges that were identified in that neighborhood project. And some strategies that were included, the specific strategies that I think we lost some, some progress on, lost some ground on during the pandemic, or specifically around the idea of of an employer assisted model for housing. So that the big employers the university in the hospital the biggest ones would find a developer program that would really incentivize their own staff to be able to live, you know, in the neighborhoods adjacent to their institutions bringing, bringing a whole bunch of benefits to that. And also there was an idea to target the acquisition of some of some key properties. Money is always the greatest hurdle but it's, it's not impossible we just have to kind of redouble and refocus and we did. I think we lost some of that focus over the last few years during the pandemic and you know I've always this is something I've always believed we as a city need to be more deliberate about. Brian, I'm going to stop the question right there since you brought up the neighborhood project. Did you want to say anything more about that than you've already said. Only that, you know, some of the goals of that project are either underway or several of them have been accomplished but much of the stuff that we're talking about right now. And I'm very specifically around rebalancing the you know sort of occupants of housing in the near University neighborhoods we we've we really didn't, we didn't get we didn't make any real no noticeable progress on that and I'll be honest and Frank about that and I'm just I'm disappointed in that. Well, and I will just add to that Keith to that really coming back to what I had mentioned about thinking about places within the city that we could help facilitate the creation of new housing like on campus. I think that was also part of the goals of the neighborhood project so in that sense we are continuing to move forward on the policy side of things, even while some of the other kind of programs and specific strategies that were in the plan have fallen behind so. Thank you. With UVM having received a record 30,000 applicants for entrance to the university this fall with the probability of a larger freshman class. And let's also acknowledge their expanding your graduate student programs. What plans does the city have to assist the long term residents in the university area to revitalize their so called neighborhoods. I would. I haven't talked to anyone this week or lately from UVM about sort of the enroll actually I talked to Joe Spidel a couple weeks ago about enrollment and whether the applicant pool, while it got much larger does that automatically correlate to an increased first year student body, or the incoming class is going to be roughly the same and and you know Joe said that the university is not looking at to increase the size of the incoming class, despite the fact that the application pool got quite a bit larger that I think is, you know driven by a few applications. One is SAT tests were made optional last year, maybe during the 21 year and so that has started to have an impact in terms of how many applications come in, and I believe they're seeing applications from parts of the country. They lost a significant chunk of the international applicants but parts of the country that never had many applicants are starting to show up in the application pool. And you know that's changing a little bit UVMs mix but their, their standards for admission are still still considered pretty high and so maybe Lisa can help us with what's UVM looking at in terms of growth in actual enrollment, even though, you know, because of the class the application pool got so much larger. But again that that could be not a good correlation to enrollment. Yeah. Would you like to talk about how are you. Thanks Brian know I think you had it correct it's, we did have a record number of applicants this year. We'll always hear people say enrollment is a little bit art and a little bit science so we admit a certain amount of students and we hope that we got the right number that's going to come but I'd say, essentially we're expecting about the same number in the fall as we have this past fall so not looking to grow a lot there. And I think, sorry. Go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say that, you know, a big part of our work. So far on thinking about the Trinity campus owning is just trying to be more collaborative with UVM to understand how their enrollment and housing trends are changing on campus. So they've been doing a lot of work and I think that they've, they've talked to you at these NPA meetings about some of the work they've been doing around understanding what their students are looking for in terms of housing, as well as trying. I'm personally trying to better understand some of the factors that are influencing that demand for both applications and then how that will ultimately impact the university's enrollment trends. You know, looking historically and I think even as recently as this year we have seen that there have been changes year over year, sometimes decreasing sometimes increasing. And we've really been trying to stay more up to date on what the factors are that influence those changes, and how much of them are kind of indicators of a longer term trend that would suggest that their enrollment would be either increasing or decreasing. So I think that's something we're trying to be more collaborative with them about. And then, you know, I feel like I keep saying this but I do think it's really important that, you know, ultimately from our perspective or from my perspective I should say, really working with them to try to identify ways that the university can start to implement, you know, multi year plans for building housing on campus or, you know, kind of campus supportive housing near the institutions. And that's being a really important thing for us to make sure that we have the foundation in place for from a land use policy and a zoning perspective, particularly if there was to be a situation where the institutions experienced a sustained period of growth and needed and wanted and or wanted to build more housing on campus to make sure they could do that. So, again, just trying to trying to be more collaborative about understanding those trends. But also making sure that the policies are supportive and really help facilitate creating more housing on campus. And we really appreciate those collaborations. I just wanted to say that we are seeing more California cars on our street and we've ever seen before the house next door has three students from California and another students from Montana so you reached wide for this year's class. So, but the issue is not, is not students. I just want to be clear, this issue for most of us and that our homeowners is that we feel that that the priority for rental unit should be for people who are not who are out of the student phase of their life and in starting a career family, etc. In order for the prosperity of Burlington to grow. It's not, it's not an anti student thing, we have great, we have great relationships with our students. And, but I just wanted to be clear that we're talking about what's the priority for the limited housing in this area university area. Is it all for students or can it be for a new, we have a new family that keep moved on to our street and right off they had a new baby. So it changes the whole atmosphere on our street. So those are the kind of people we'd like to see have it some of the living units within. I'm just specifically talking to Ward eight because that's what I know about the best right now. I want to go on and I've been around a long time, and I ran for Alderman and 85 and I talked about the same thing so it's not something that I haven't talked about for a long time. Senator Sanders administration tried to solve some of the city university relationship issues by sending the university and medical center a tax bill to alleviate the financial impact of their presence in our city. The doctors still talk about how they hate Sanders. The decision was just objected to the request, but later negotiated a settlement. So that they pay in lieu of tax amount, you'll be in housing policy policy has a significant impact on the East District's housing. What steps, what steps can the city's administration now take to create and improve balance of students and residents in the student rental area. Yeah, Keith I well maybe Brian remembers that I certainly wasn't here when that happened but I was going to add I would like to have seen the reaction but I was going to add that Keith ran in 1985 and and perhaps this, this individual on this at this end of this call maybe was very much part of his campaign. And we didn't pull it off but we came close and Keith has stuck with it ever since so he gets an award for 37 years of dogged commitment, even when he hasn't won all the time right. That's right you don't have to win to get your point. Yeah, I mean I think, again, specifically thinking about the point that you were just making Keith to about. When you're talking about balance you're talking about how do we make sure the housing near campus is also attractive and available to young families or working professionals older adults, whoever it might be. I think one of the things that we have talked about, especially in thinking about the Trinity campus and how the institutions could facilitate more housing there is thinking about how, at least from the policy side how we make sure that they can develop in a way that has lots of amenities and is a type of housing that could be attractive to more of their students, maybe some upperclassmen, maybe graduate students, really to help so that there's a more attractive option that those individuals might be interested in moving to to help alleviate some of the pressure on nearby neighborhoods, especially thinking about areas of the campus that are easily accessible and desirable areas of the campus. So, you know, that's a big thing that we've been talking about is, you know, could any kind of development Trinity campus also have a cafe or, you know, something like that would that would really make it be kind of a rich and that would help attract some of the students into the campus area. And then beyond that I think again, you know Brian had mentioned some of the goals that the neighborhood project has that are really trying to look at ways to help facilitate other people having access to housing, and especially addressing the affordability aspects of that housing. And I think, you know, similarly some of the work that we're doing to try to create more housing options of all kinds throughout the city will kind of help expand as well, the available housing that people have to choose from so I think kind of together those things really helping provide more options will start to have an impact where other programs can help to. I don't know Brian if you wanted to add anything. Well, Megan the, the goal of course is, is one that I think we all agree on it's really just a question of what are the strategies what are the, what how are we going to get there. And I think I think we need, I honestly think we need more, like the conversation more dialogue and more focus on this to get us out of just the sort of broad sort of sweeping goals portion and we're doing it. I mean, the Trinity rezoning is a great example of, you know, putting goals into action, you know, a rezoning of the area where Waterman parking lot and to go as Brian is would be a significant positive trend. But we have other initiatives that were embedded in that that neighborhood project that I think really deserve deserve more focus and attention to just that's where I would steer. We receive a significant amount of a little tax money counselor Shannon gave me the figure a couple years ago 12 million I don't know what it is now or if that was true then I don't I didn't. She just said that number. And I just wanted, I don't know what the most recent amount is, or if that was even near the number, but what is that money is that money go towards the general revenue of the city or is it helping out neighborhoods that are totally impacted by the UVM is housing policy. Sure, the, the amount I would add is, I don't think UVMs portions anywhere near 12 million that might have been that might have been the total payments and move taxes that the city gets right at some point in time maybe but we did actually, you know, Keith in in response to this question we did look at the, the current fiscal year budget, and we know that UVM was budgeted to pay about $1.4 million in fees for service to the city just this year. And I think that helps to support our public safety departments police and fire. This also includes what we call an omnibus payment which just goes to the general fund to help support different city services. And I think, you know, over the course of a year, the institutions all of them may encounter other types of fees. If they own any property that is still taxable and is not tax exempt they would pay taxes on them and, you know, permitting fees and other types of fees that anyone would pay in the city I believe they still pay. You know, we haven't directed the dollars and there was one more fee that many, many people don't notice but on your bill, your utility bills a very nominal amount each month called the franchise fee, and the franchise fee is actually a pretty clear policy directive from the decision in which said, essentially the utilities you're going to pay a nominal fee two or 3% is going to go charge to you as utilities public and private for the right to run your utilities across the public right away you're using the public right away to conduct your business. And, and while it sounds like just another tax that gets passed on to average people. In fact the university in the hospital that don't pay property taxes pay very significant franchise fees like we're talking significant numbers are paid in the franchise fees so for every dollar raised with a franchise fee, the nonprofit tax exempt institutions pay about 35 cents of every dollar the city collects comes from entities that otherwise wouldn't be paying taxes so that's an example of you know sort of creativity around raising revenue away from the property tax and it is a really innovative way to ensure that the institutions can also contribute to the cost of city government but none of these funds are directed at your question Keith which is are these used specifically to mitigate direct impacts in the near university near campus neighborhoods and the answer is they are not the only the only exception that I'll say to that is and I know you're all very aware of this and in previous years at times, the institutions would help a fund increased foot patrols with the BPD and so that was something that they were paying for and was specifically to be supportive of the neighborhoods that you all live in. Thank you. A development plan submitted to the city by a company like higher ground receives rigorous scrutiny with numerous requests for impact studies on its neighbors, including noise and traffic. Shouldn't UBM be held to the same standard when it's enrollment overflows into the housing on the surrounding streets of the university. I think this is a great question Keith and ultimately I think the most direct answer is really an unsatisfying one but I do have some other things to add to it. So you know first and foremost, you know the zoning ordinance doesn't specify that a certain amount of the institutions enrollment has to live on the campus so we don't really have a standard as part of the development review process that we could use to say, you know your meeting or not meeting the standard. But I will just say, you know, most of the institutions projects are of a big enough scale that they are required to go in front of the city's development review board, sometimes even through the state permitting process act 250 which I'm sure you're very aware of. So those are forums for us to have a closer inspection about some of the impacts not necessarily on enrollment but on some of the impacts of these campus development projects. One other thing I'm not sure how many folks are aware of but we do also require through the zoning ordinance that the institutions all of the Hill institutions actually prepare a parking management plan at least every five years. And this includes an analysis of where people live and work on the three institutions campuses and in our community. Any projected changes in enrollment or the number of beds or the number of employees, all for the purpose of helping to analyze their parking demand and their potential strategies that they'll use to address their parking demand, but also helps us give a bigger focus on kind of across the entire system, all of the campuses and the entire campus area. You know what are really the things that are happening and what are the things that they anticipate to happen on the campus in the next several years so it is a kind of a rigorous process for them to share some of their planning initiatives and help us better understand what their balance is looking like in the future. And I note that that is a joint institutional parking management plan do I have that. Yep. There's no reason why that couldn't include a discussion of enrollment and housing, I mean it doesn't have it now, but it probably could be a useful thing to do on a periodic basis to both. Just talk about any anticipated changes in enrollment in the next, you know, whatever period of time they're preparing it for, as well as any potential changes in the numbers of bed, that's on campus. Because those all, you know, impact their parking demand at the end of the day. The next question you may have answered it if you feel like you have nothing else to say about it. That's fine, we'll go on. I should, should the planning commission and CEDA recommend to the administration that the city require you'll be able to present a multi year plan to build more living units on campus and an East District to decrease the demand for housing by students on surrounding neighborhood streets. And I have a whole lot to add besides what I just described about the parking management plan process. So, okay. I think I think you've covered everything that my questions asked so I'll leave it to the facilitator now to ask if anybody else has any questions. Sounds good. Richard questions. A couple of questions. First of all, Megan and Brian, thank you very much. It's quite interesting. I'm kind of a great believer in leverage, which we don't seem to do very much of. And I'm interested to know to the extent to which the city works with developers to propel a development to fruition. I'll give you an example is that there's a development that's been before the DRB and the planning commission for about seven or eight years. It's, it's arguable what the unit number is at the moment. It's going to go to an act to 50 hearing or a second act to 50 hearing I should say, later on this year. And it's close to the Trinity campus and the developer is a total prick and won't moderate the number of units he wants to put in a very, very precarious. geographical location, which hangs over the ravine above Riverwatch if you can imagine that. To what extent can, and you could look at any development that's possible from a city place down to what extent is the city working with developers to really move things along to grease the wheels of any project. The one that's, I talked about when I started. I don't know how many beds it could be but the neighbors are fighting it vigorously. And so are some geological experts. The modest development could may facilitate 100 beds, I don't know, but if you multiply that by the number of wards we have, I bet there are developments like that, all around the city that are just in the sort of frozen zone. And I'd like to hear your thoughts on that I got a couple of other things but but that is something that I think the city can be proactive on. The answer is from our department anyway is we I would say there are times when developments are proposed that require land use changes zoning changes and in exchange, there's often like a sort of a trade off if you will perhaps an increase in the percentage of the inclusionary units the affordable units, or maybe the dedication of some land to set aside for public access or public benefit and I think of Cambrian rise. I think of the, you know, certainly the initial intentions around city place. And, and those are some examples that the city plays a more involved role in. Richard like there's, you know, there's examples of that while there's like over on Grove Street, which turns into patch and road the old sd Ireland. Not a lot of city involvement per se, really just sort of the regulatory regimen of getting through the permitting process and the inclusionary affordable requirements are you know something that our office handles but it does it varies quite a bit I'd say not. I don't know who's actually the developer on Fletcher place anymore if it's still the original or if it's been handed off to a different developer I'm not even aware of, of who that developer is right now if it's it's still fun check image. Yeah, it keeps on changing the company that's the vehicle for it but that's him. I don't know that our office has had any role whatsoever except to review for the purposes of compliance with the inclusionary housing proportion of the zoning ordinance and that's, that's a, you know, that's our requirement to do that and we have to ensure that but beyond that. There's no other involvement in that project, but should you. I'm not sure you do are you asking my opinion is that interesting. Well, I'm asking. Well, we keep on hearing about housing shortage and that sort of thing. So what is the city really doing at a grassroots level with developed by the developer project by project to move them along. We have, I think Megan can speak about some changes to the process, like form based code and initiatives like that. I think primarily the city is is best at ensuring that our policies and procedures really work to facilitate the kind of development that we need and want as a community. I don't, I don't see us having the capacity or bandwidth to do like a developer on Bootsman, so to speak, which would help walk people through that has been discussed in the past and I know some communities do that. It hasn't gotten a lot of political support. The idea has not been supported in Burlington as a way to use city funds to get developers through the process so I'd like to hear what Megan thinks about it though. Yeah, no, I think I also think this is a really good question Richard and, like I said, to one of Keith's questions kind of an unsatisfying answer that, you know the city doesn't typically intervene in those types of projects unless it's that, you know, like Brian said we have some sort of a development agreement to help facilitate other community benefits but we certainly don't do that for every development project citywide. I hear you about, you know projects getting stuck installed and from my perspective a big part of what the Planning Commission has been working on for my entire tenure is trying to identify areas of our ordinances that often get people stuck and obviously we can't address every one of those issues because sometimes they might be financial or outside agencies that create some of those barriers but as Brian mentioned we are trying to at least create as few opportunities for that stalling to happen from a policy perspective before a project even gets, you know, designed. Well, nothing's getting built, and people are spending thousands and thousands of dollars every year, the developer, Montpelier, every interested party, and, and the residents who ranked von Turkovich came to an MPA, admitting that his development would trash the property values. That's the exact words he used. So, you know, it seems, it seems a silly old circle with no sign of an amicable resolution unless someone takes the bull by the horns and says, So, right, we're either going to put in a 50 unit project, which would be, I don't know whether that would be acceptable to the neighbors, but something of modest scale, but actually get built. Anyway, I've made the point I think that frustrating as a, as a, as an interested spectator. Jonathan, you've got your hand up. Thanks, Tom. First, Brian and Megan, I really appreciate your coming to the meeting and joining this conversation. Obviously, you know, this is really important to people in the East District. Let me start with a very short, I hope a short rant, and then get to my question. I'm wondering, I like and appreciate the Trinity campus project, but I'm not sure that I like the language that's used about it. I would like people to think about new projects, whether it's Trinity or von Turkovich's or whatever, in terms of the metrics and the metrics should be what is it going to do to the vacancy rate in the city? What is it going to do to rental rates in the city? What is it going to do to affordability for apartments in the city? Because those are, that's the crux of it. A number of beds on a university campus is a fine number, but it doesn't say anything about what it does to the city. And I think our greatest concern I think in administration, residents in the community are how can we make our city better? So that's my rant. The question has to do is back on the neighborhood project and I think the study was fantastic. And I think I remember Brian, the CDNR meeting where you handed the neighborhood project from the city council to your current position. When can we expect to see work done on phases two and three, the slowing down of conversions to rentals and actually bringing some of that property back? And I understand they're kind of big deals. But I think we all understand that COVID was crazy and there were a lot of distractions, but we're getting past that now. When do you think we can start to really talk about figuring out some of those plans that are in the neighborhood project? Jonathan, I wish I had prepared better for this one because I don't have much of an answer other than to say we are currently very focused on the homelessness efforts that we have underway. And that's extremely consuming of our limited staff, but we're not ever going to lose track and lose sight of the fact that those recommendations contained in that report are something that there's a lot in there. We spent a lot of time on it. The community spent a lot of time on it. It was an investment and it's not forgotten. I hate to make a promise that I can't keep as far as when we're going to get back to it, but the urging is not lost on me. The fact that we have not returned to it in the year that I've been back at CEDO is something I'm not actually very, I'm not proud of that fact, I would say. Again, I try not to over promise under deliver so my commitment is as simple as is not bringing it back for consideration for exploration for further development of some of these concepts because a lot of those are ideas that have been tried elsewhere. And, you know, they're fairly, I think they're proven concepts so I think we just need, we got to get the, we got to get the political will going and that's something that, you know, your support as citizens is important in that process. I was going to say, I think that there are parts of this that the city could help advance, you know, through, especially through exploratory phases, and then ultimately as Brian mentioned, a lot of those phase two and phase three goals are going to be very cost intensive and so I think to the extent that there is an interest in exploring how to fund those I think that'll be a really important piece of how successful we are moving them forward. Jonathan, if I could also just speak to your rant, because I appreciated it. I wanted to share it doesn't look like you have the chat on but I can share it with Keith and Tom that the city, just a few weeks ago launched the first kind of iteration of a housing dashboard that my office is creating. It will be built out more over the coming months but the purpose of it is to try to better keep an eye on those metrics that you mentioned about, you know, how are we helping or how are we progressing towards our goals of not only having more housing but of affecting food and affordability and all of those things so we've put together a few key pieces of the dashboard that look at homeowners and renters overall housing unit changes in the city, and some information about the condition of housing and so I'll happily share a link with your facilitators to circulate in your minutes as well. Thank you very much. And I would just add to what Jonathan mentioned that we you hit it right on because there had been a 20 year period where there were no new student beds added from 73 to 93 and in 93 redstone apartments opened up just you know that south portion between traditional redstone campus and the country club and rental rates leveled off for two years and vacancies went up and you know as a result, simple supply and demand law of economics, conditions improved and like, like a number of important policy objectives were achieved so those are, that's really an important point to put to include is we need to be able to measure and point to that because that's really you're right that is the goal. Anything else Jonathan. I'm good. Thank you very much. I actually got a sort of a question but sort of a comment and that's, you know, here in words one and eight, what you hear from us is the, the big facility, you know, in our words and that's the hospital, and that they're bringing more students in housing, but the hospital is also bringing in our employees. And from an employee point of view, it's not just the hospital I mean we've seen things in other parts of Burlington, where dealer comms come in, and these are good jobs I mean it's not like we don't want this kind of job in Burlington, but there's that and Hulu and a little bit outside of town there's now beta which is going to grow into hundreds of employees and how, how do we react to employers bringing in more increasing demand for housing. We're pretty welcoming to say, these are good jobs and those three places I think are bringing in, you know, pretty clean jobs well paying jobs stuff that we want to see but how do we balance that with the band that that's going to put, at least in Burlington probably the whole county for housing. That's a great question Tom and I think in part I'll say it comes back to our efforts to try to help set the table as much as we can from a zoning policy perspective to enable more homes to be created. You know I was really encouraged by hearing the news while it's not going to be located in Burlington but I was really encouraged to hear the news that UVM Medical Center is going to build some apartments for their employees. And, you know, I hope that that will be, you know that they'll be a bit of a leader in that regard in terms of other large employers thinking about, even if it's not actually building housing if there are other ways that they can think about supporting employees to get access to housing as well. I was actually just at a conference and was hearing a lot about other efforts and big employment hubs about similar efforts to try to really promote employers, creating and helping their employees get access to housing and so I think that's another really important thing for us to continue to think about as part of, you know the city's economic development work so. And it is, it is where the employer assisted housing concepts there's lots of flavors of that idea but that really makes a direct link there are examples of policy that's often referred to as linkage, which I got Peter Clavel tried to initiate linkage basically as you create jobs if you reach a certain scale, we're also going to expect you to contribute to a regional housing trust fund and the trust fund is going to be used to ensure that we create housing close to the jobs rather than having this sort of spatial mismatch where jobs are all out in the burbs and people are, you know, living in Burlington and runuski and having to schlep way out there to get to their job so you know this does it does beg the question about regionalism and what we can do regionally because there's only so much that one city or you know one neighborhood in a city can do in terms of meeting the growing demand that's created by new jobs and you raised a good point there that you know these jobs are something we all feel generally pretty positive about their support families people can sort of set down roots but where they're going to set those roots down if you know the average home in Burlington is now assisted, I think it's 450 460 something like that. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Jonathan you have another question, or is your, your hands. Sandy does Sandy does just, you can lower my hand. I have a cup I have a comment and just a couple of questions to throw out first. Some of you know I'm in real estate some of you don't, but not to really put a damper on everything but I haven't checked this week. But as of last week, on average for all of Chittenden County, 19 towns. There were 50 homes available at any price range. 50. Half of them were over 600,000. We have a house around the corner from us at the top of noise street 1300 square feet and it went under contract I don't know what it'll sell that for just under $630,000. It is jaw dropping. There is no housing. And the housing that comes is taken up very rapidly. Most homes are going at least 50 to 100,000 over asking price. And if you're not cash you're not in the game. And they're coming from all over the country here so not to put a damper on it but when you talk about housing. It is, I've never seen it and I've only been doing this since 83 so just to let you know. I was really glad Brian to hear you mentioned one thing that I was going to ask about years ago is on the planning commission, the regional planning commission. And I just hadn't heard any conversation was all about Brolin tins problems and Brolin tins going to solve the problems. We can't do it. This camp, even UVM campus it spreads into, you know, South Brolin tins. I don't know how one does it but we had, we need more people at the table when you skate Burlington at the South Burlington to solve any of the housing problems. Burlington cannot and should not take this all on on its own shoulders. And that's just a comment. So quick questions, I don't know who can answer any of them. There used to be a big difference in the non homestead rate which helped to discourage parents from buying houses. That used to be that 22%, I think right Brian, I think that down to what five or six percent I mean it's almost not. So I don't know how that works, but that's just a concern because that was one way to sort of discourage my dad from buying a house for Susie and Tommy. The other quick questions I have is, I don't know whether UVM has any interest but I'd love to see it with the dry campus status. It pushed a lot of problems into the neighborhoods. And I think that was just a really inappropriate way to solve their problems. A couple of quick things. Does anybody have any rumors about what's going to happen with the convent? Anybody? It's like this is the biggest secret in town. That thought crossed my mind in this conversation, but I don't have any information on it. I really don't. Well, I can tell you, nobody sees it. Anybody here is please share. Just a quick question. Is the convent empty? Yeah. Actually, you know who's using it is the school. Monterey Christie is using it, I believe. But not where they're not. I heard that that was sold because Sarah Holbrook was asking about that. And it got sold, right? Very early on after they, it's been sold to someone. The question is, who's it been sold to and what are they planning to do with it? But it was sold whenever, I don't know, they had a big sale of all the furniture and everything in the convent. I think they got rid of stuff. Are you sure? Yeah. The person itself has been sitting there vacant for quite a few years. I know one developer who took a look at it and it was so costly to even consider bringing it up to standards. He walked away from it. I think the only person that's even remotely possible would be for UVM to pick it up. I know that they have an engine. It's a big property and it is vacant. And it's been vacant for a long time. Anyway, just a question, if anybody do share if you hear about it. And the last quick thing is when I think you're talking about working with UVM to build housing that year round if I hear that correctly. So that we don't have housing that's sitting empty for three months out of the year there. I have heard from employers and whatnot where they're bringing in temporary help that would be happy to live in some of these residential places. I don't know whether UVM can do that because there would not be students. But I walk around that campus in the summertime and it's like my private park. There's no one there. It's a big wasted amount of land and housing. Anyway, just some quick thoughts on that. And I went to hold my breath that the housing market's going to improve based on the fact that rates have gone up stock markets tanked hasn't slowed the people flowing in here with bags of cash one I ordered just to let you know. That's my evening summary. It really is a disappointment to hear that Sandy I know we have a new planner who's been trying to find a house here in Burlington and he's been experiencing that firsthand so I was interested to again I was just at a conference and a lot of the speakers were talking about the ways that their communities are trying to address housing. And it, it does sound like this issue of cash buyers and really hot markets is something that is shared among lots of communities, to the point where even some of these really models of, you know, workforce housing and employer assisted housing programs just aren't able to compete and so it does feel like it's a time that we have to be more innovative and think about different ways to approach it. I don't have all the answers for what that means yet but it's definitely something that we heard a lot about. Now, and I think the hope is that eventually this will calm down. I think some of this right ironically in our area being driven by climate change people are tired of that you know the battles of fires in California. Maybe they want to get away from the crazy politics in certain areas. And it's, it's not any one thing, but I can tell you that I've, I've never seen I've seen a lot of different markets in my years. I've never seen anything like this, and I don't think anyone else has and nobody knows what to do about it. I would say that maybe take a deep breath and don't make too many decisions in this environment, because hopefully it won't be a forever thing. I do. Oh, the only thing I was going to add. Sorry, I thought somebody told me to go. The other thing I was just going to add based on what Sandy just said. When she mentioned that you know this, we've been talking a lot about Burlington Burlington's doing and you're absolutely right that there are, are both, you know, opportunities and challenges that we have that are bigger than just Burlington. So the one thing that I was going to say is I know that there is a pretty large coalition of people throughout the region that are interested and are trying to focus energy around the housing challenges that we're experiencing. So I don't know if many of you have heard of the building homes together campaign, which is something that the regional planning commission convened. And they, they looked at work that the Vermont housing finance agency has done, and are really trying to understand, you know, what does it, what would it look like what would it take for us to make a dent in our housing availability and affordability challenges, and have set a target for how many homes really need to be built how many market rate homes and how many affordable homes need to be built in our entire region in order to help us solve this problem. So through their housing committee that they have at the regional planning commission level, through the housing committees of individual municipalities throughout our county. I know that each one of us are trying to take whatever steps we can to try to help with that regional goal. So it was a really great point Sandy. I have a comment I wanted to, I wanted to what Richard. Oh, go ahead. Thanks. I've mentioned it to city council a couple of times went on this topic of city place. And I have no idea what the current situation is so I don't know whether this is relevant. It's an idea that I thought was a decent idea. The city place is never going to be a neighborhood. So we ought to leverage that property for everything that we can possibly do as a as a city say screw affordable housing requirements. And the rest of it make sure it's environmentally good. But we don't care if they're, I don't think people really care whether they're million dollar or three million dollar condos in there, but the kicker is any money that a developer makes from profiteering on not complying with affordable housing. In a public trust land trust or Champlain housing or something run by the city or the county, I don't know. You know the organizations and dedicated to restoring refurbishing remodeling properties in the neighborhoods, so that we can recreate affordable housing where people actually want it wants to live and generate vibrant neighborhoods around the city. I don't have any feedback on that so probably everyone thinks it's a hair brained idea but it seems, it seems to me but it's just another way in which we, we can propel development forward in a way that suits everyone. I'm actually not here brain Richard because it's included as a option depending on the zoning track that it's in the census track I'm sorry the census track not the zoning track. There's a provision that says essentially if you have a development that is located in a neighborhood that is already has a, an income mix that is, let's just call it mixed income. You can do what's called a payment in lieu of developing the units on site so that is it, I don't know if that would qualify that location, but the idea is not completely farfetched and is included in the current ordinance today you can do that the payment in lieu. Yeah, it's a little different I hear what you're suggesting, but it's it's sort of the upfront way that somebody can say you know instead of providing these units I'll pay into the housing trust fund. And capitalizing on the profit they would make by not complying later which is what I hear you're suggesting so. My thought is that there's a lot of dilapidated housing around in all parts of the city. It should be in our vested interest in our communities vested interest to re restore or refurbish these properties. In a way that conforms with the 2030 20, where are we 2030s 2040s, rather than some hybrid carving up of properties that are then left to deteriorate. Yeah, and I know I do know that this issue to have housing quality is something that the state of Vermont's how does it agency of commerce and community development has been thinking a lot about so within Burlington we have a couple of districts that are designated by the state that help bring resources to property owners such as tax credits and other types of funding incentives that they can take advantage of to help them with, you know, creating more accessible spaces bringing them up to code. And I know that there has been an effort in the legislature to expand some of those benefits into areas that, you know, would include some of the neighborhoods that we're talking about. I'm not sure what the status of that is but I know the state has really been trying to put some money behind efforts to really bring properties up in terms of their overall code compliance and quality. Yes, I want to kind of connect two ideas. I've been watching for a hill and all of the, all the growth there and a lot of those people there are coming into Burlington with their cars are walking to the campus. It's it's I that has grown quite fast I think probably because of the the issues of a vacancy low vacancies in Burlington, and we see that I'm Farrell drive how the fast that went up. And then I'm I'm on I'm on the vestry at Cathedral of St. Paul's and you know we do these three cathedral square. And I was talking to the executive director of Cathedral Square and I said, how can we can't take over the property of the immaculate conception the cathedral for the Catholics, and build another, like we have three cathedral square at Cherry Street. And the first thing out of her mouth was is it's very difficult to develop in Burlington. Is that one of our reasons why we're not developing more is because people perceive it's very difficult to really go through the process of developing. I can't imagine how we would have got what we have now at three cathedral square on Cherry Street in the 70s, if we had to do it now I don't think we'd have questions about a type and everything else. And they are, they've, we've become the three cathedral square, the largest independent provider of housing for seniors and just disabled people. Yeah, Keith it's a really good point and I'll say that I think that there is some of that sentiment about it being difficult or even impossible to build in Burlington that is true. And some of it that may be sort of a self fulfilling prophecy and in ways. I know I, I feel like I keep saying over and over again what we're trying to do with zoning but that is another big part of the reason why we've been trying to do the work that we've done with the planning commission and the city council. In the past, you know, at least 10 years probably is to try to identify what are those sticking points that make it difficult or impossible to build in Burlington. Are they serving us well, or are they things that, you know, we could think about altering that, you know, this ranges anywhere from where do we require parking. You know, how do we require, or could we require buildings to meet certain design standards in exchange for going through a lengthy kind of subjective development review process. You know, and lots of tweaks in between so I think that there are a lot of things on our radar that we've heard over the years that, you know, maybe we're real challenges about building in Burlington. Some of it may have to do with land cost. Some of it may have to do with just the nature of the city being largely built out. Unlike some of our neighboring communities, we don't have open green land that easily be turned into single family development tracks and so when you think about what the kind of complex challenges are with building in a dense core community like Burlington, they're they naturally come with more complications or costs. Not all which need to be kind of the death of a project but we're definitely looking at what are the things that are within our control as a community that we can try to help address to make it so that Burlington's not impossible to build in. Predictability has real value to organizations like Kim Fitzgerald is someone I know very well and her development director Cindy Reed. They've been very successful at Cambrian rise the old St. Joseph's orphanage on North Avenue, because they had a development partner that was able to basically lay the groundwork for that development and predictability they knew exactly what they're going to get to build. And that's Eric Farrell got the permits that was he he went through that process he took the risk he made the upfront investment. And that was a collaborative with the city because there was this 12 acres that became essentially public public land and public park on that property so that was a great example but you know it is there's there's some of that that is a true Keith around it being more difficult we have, you know we have a fire code requirement that is extremely demanding and public safety is really important so I think most of us would probably think that those requirements are really, you know, have good value, but there's a trade off to that there's a real trade off so it's it's it's a point that's not lost on myself or or most of us in the city government. Any other questions. I think Councilor Hanson might have his hand up or is it. No, there's a hand up there maybe your way. Oh yeah, that confuses people. I appreciate that you two years into the pandemic the hand is still there. I've seen a lot of people get confused by that. That's it. That's it Jesse. I'd like to just close this by making a comment and that's it, you know, in Burlington there's a lot of in every word there's a lot of new views and we are in words one and eight, you know, really pushing this housing thing pretty hard. I want to add on you guys to bring the city together, because there are there may not be a lot of large develop tracks but there are some tracks that where we could add housing. One that comes to mind right off is there's some land for sale on Pine Street on the lake side of Pine Street. I don't know anything about the zoning or anything. It's close to the barge canal. But, you know, why couldn't that become a big housing project or something, you know, like 678 stories would like you. I mean it could be quite a fabulous thing and it's right on a major road. There's a lot of tourists there. It's walkable to a lot of places. I'm not saying that it's possible. I'm just saying there's a lot of reasons why you would want to strongly consider something like that, but we had a presentation here either last month or two months ago and people said, No, we don't we think that should be forever while. We're depending on you guys to hurt all the words together to say look there's trade offs and here's what your board needs to contribute to make this work. That's a great invitation Tom I think we'll have to come back and discuss the rezoning of the south end with you. But seriously, I was going to say I appreciate that point. And I appreciate you inviting us here I know that this is not the first time Brian and I have been here even just this year alone so I do appreciate all the work that you all are trying to do to advance the housing conversation and I agree I think we're really trying to think about different areas of the city and what different areas of the city can contribute so that we're all doing something so. And wards one and eight can start the new movement the Yimby movement right yes in my backyard. Yes. Well thank you very much for coming. Thank you so much for having us and your focus is needed. Thank you. Before we close the meeting. Hearing none. I know I know there's an item on the agenda for local or coupons but I think everyone who's here actually has one. So, we're going to do local or next time. Can I plug something since we're ending early. I just want to plug. So the transportation energy and utilities committee which I'm the chair of. We're meeting on the 23rd of this month at five. It should be a hybrid meeting at Department of Public Works or on zoom. One of the big topics of conversation is going to be the sidewalk plan that for the city which is still not set in stone we approve the funding but the exact you know streets that are going to get rehabilitated this year is not totally set in in stone and Cindy cook and others have advocated strongly around the staff and so I just would welcome anyone to come to that to learn more about the process and advocate as well at that meeting. So, can you tell me the date again. Yeah, so Tuesday, May 23 at 5pm. And you're right that I'm advocating for East Avenue but above and beyond that I'm advocating for a more thoughtful process in terms of how sidewalks are prioritized, and I just don't think we're there yet. And so, yeah, I'm really glad that you're working on this I really appreciate that. Yeah, this is definitely a space not just for the immediate plan but for how we do things as well. And so this will be a good I think conversation for that and. Yeah, I hope you can make it I hope anyone who's interested can make that. Thanks a lot for your check. Thanks. Jack, as you know word wordy is very concerned about the redistricting, and we want you to, we want our basic goal is to get a balanced community where we have accessibility to all voters, and that we feel that we that everyone can be become a neighborhood rather than as we are right now. And so redistricting for those of us who are living in this ward for many years or a couple years, it's one of those things we're very concerned about. We're not really feeling that we have a Democratic ward right now. Yep, totally totally understand it capital D I'm talking about a representative democracy. Of course yeah no I totally understand that and we are going to have, I believe at our next council meeting on the 23rd. We're going to have a report back I don't know if Megan left or not but on potential ways forward with redistricting both looking at draft maps but also configurations because we haven't. We haven't made any decisions about the size of the council, or the maps so thanks for sharing that I definitely agree and hear that and it's very much alive, a live issue and coming up in our next meeting so please if you can make it, please do. All right, well thanks everyone for participating and we will look forward to seeing you next time. Thanks everyone.