 Welcome to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe, your host for the chats. I produce the fireside chats with mistress Joanne Gaddy. Today I'm in London, England, in the studios of Matt Spike in Soho. I'm extending special thanks to Matt for enabling us to use his studios to film a very, very wonderful chat today. My guest is Susie Kruger. Let's go ahead and go right on into things. Okay. When we were preparing for this chat, you were telling me a lot about your history, which is very rich, very colorful. Tell us a bit about your early life, your growing up time. Oh, well, I grew up in New Jersey and just a regular normal childhood. Went to school, play a lot of sports, oh, dealt with a few drugs. And then I worked in the police for a little while. I moved to Boston where I graduated from Northeastern. I went on to do insurance fraud for four years. I tried to get into the police then, but it wasn't meant to be. And then I came over to England in 1990, and yes, I decided to live here. But you came out very, very early. 14. You also mentioned that your stepmother is a lesbian. So it kind of made things a little bit easy because I think my dad came home with Carter in bed with a woman, but that's what happened. So they were going through a divorce. And then I thought, oh, well, here's my chance. I might as well just say I'm gay. Although my father probably used to read my mail and just a couple of things along the way, but yeah. So, and then when I was about 16 or 17, I did go to gay bars with my mom. She did her thing and I did mine. And yeah, it was like that. It wasn't, coming out wasn't difficult, but I have suffered the consequences since then on numerous occasions for being gay, definitely. How do you mean? Okay, so I did join the Navy and I got kicked out, but I sort of instigated that. So I went into the Navy and when I was right before my 18th birthday and I was told after a few weeks, I wasn't accepting of the discipline. There was lots of gay women though, that was fun. But yeah, I told them I was gay and yeah, they kicked me out. Wow. Within not long. I probably was in boot camp in Orlando, Florida probably for about three weeks, maybe four. And it took them about two weeks to kick me out. I would have done it differently if I was older. What would you have done differently? I probably would have stayed in. Okay. It was fun, but I just, the discipline and yeah, I struggled with discipline. But the other women were quiet about being gay? They weren't open? Well, everybody wanted to be, you know, join the military and be in it. So, but you could tell who was gay. Yes. I had a little, you know, this and that. A little kiss here and there with some other young girls. Yes, we did manage. But let's take one step back, going out with your mother. Tell us about that. What was going through your mind? That had to be something very interesting. It was and people were really surprised. But you know, my mom took me to, we used to go to, I can't remember the name in East Orange, New Jersey was a huge gay club. And obviously I wasn't driving then. So she would drive and I'd go with her and she would hang out and socialize with her friends and I would make friends. Wow. And then we went out in New York City quite a few times to there was a few got one, six in my mind was called the Duchess. That was probably 1979, 1980. And we went there a few times and she would do her thing and I would do mine. Cause they, you know, there was a lot to be lots of young girls there. Wow. Probably 19, I don't know how, but you know, back then, yeah. And you discovered the leather scene in New York City in the late seventies. Now that was an iconic time in the leather community. It's always been something that everyone's wished they'd been able to have enjoyed and experienced. Tell us about some of the places that you experienced and that you saw. You're talking the mine shaft. There was, I mean, I didn't go in any into the men's leather cruising because obviously they were men only, but we used to go to this one place called Hellfire. And it was in the meat packing district and you would go down these dingy old stairs and they'd have a bar in there with ping pong paddles around the bar and then you could get a beer with a drink ticket or something, but it was a sex club. And I used to go there with a couple other young dykes and we just went there. I don't know why we went, it was for fun or something to do. Or we couldn't get the train home back to New Jersey or something. And that did open to my eyes to a lot of stuff then. Tell us more about that. Hellfire. Why did you go there of all places? It was just something, it was not out of a fetish or a sexual interest because that side of me I wasn't really aware of just yet. It was just a place that my friends thought were really cool. So we went and I think some of my friends were friends with, there was a couple of women's who were professional Dominic sisters. So that's, so we kind of all went with them and let them do whatever and then we would hang out there and drink a few beers, yeah. So tell us about your thoughts going in there. What did you see, feel, experience? I saw a lot, you know, because in the back of the club they had cubicles and so, you know, there'd be, it was a cruising place. I mean, it was for all sorts of people, not just gay. It was a very mixed thing. So I think there was a woman in there once and there was a big line of guys waiting to have sex with her. I thought that was fascinating. And my friend's friend had, I guess a customer, but she was a Dalman. She was, you know, doing all sorts of him on the stage. I did see people having sex with a dog once, a Dalmatian. Yes, they had it on the stage because I remember the bar was here and they had some sort of center stage thing. And then behind it was all the play areas or cruising rooms. And yeah, it was interesting. I only went there a few times. It wasn't like we went there all the time. We went a few times. Was anything off-putting, shocking? I think the dog thing was a little bit freaky. I mean, I was only 18, 19, yeah. I'd been chucked out of the Navy by then. I was at a loss of what to do. So I was hanging around New York City, clubbing. What other places did you visit? That's it. I only went to the lesbian bars. I didn't go to any of the bigger clubs and I was only hanging around for a short while because then I went to Boston to go to school. Then I got into university and so I went out. And also at that age, I didn't have a whole lot of money. I was a working student, so I really didn't go out a whole lot. Oh, I see. And I was playing rugby. That was one of my passions. So I spent a lot of time with rugby. But you've mentioned the lesbian bars. You mentioned a bar called Duchess. The Duchess? Yeah, that was a big one. It was right on the corner of Seventh Avenue. There was another one. I'm sorry, I can't remember the names. There was quite a few, yeah. How was the scene then for the women? Fab, fab, fantastic. They were always busy and crowded, wherever you wanted to be, loads of women. Yes, totally. Anything unique about any of that that you experienced? It's not like that now. Yeah. It's totally not like that back then, like it is now. So it was my, I just seemed to be, there was a lot more women going out and there was a lot more clubs around than there. But I don't, you know, I live here. So I haven't been out. And last time I went out in New York City, it must have been years ago and there was some party on Wednesday night before Thanksgiving in Central Park. But I couldn't relate to it because I've been living here for such a long time. Yeah. I could not relate to the women and all what it was about. Yeah, I remember that. So I never have gone out since. Wow. Tell us about your first visit to London in 1988. You said it was eye-opening. Yeah, so I came over here in 1988 and there was a women's leather party called Chain Reaction and it was at the Market Tavern and I went there once and I've never seen anything like it. It was probably my first experience of what a dildo was. Ah. And all the women were dressed in leather and they had shaved heads and really anarchist sort of, yeah. I don't know how, just tough. They were tough women. They had a sex show. I'd never seen that before. Yeah, it definitely was eye-opening. And there was actually back then there was quite a few women's parties and clubs and it was a big movement. It was quite political. How do you mean political? Political in terms of that, having gay rights, yeah. It just felt political. I mean, you know, there are people who are like, yes, I'm gay, what are you gonna do about it? Type thing. I see, I see. That sort of thing, yeah. Well, there had to be a lot more available than we have in London today. So what sorts of things stand out for you that were so popular then? There was a lot of more clubs and bars for women back then for sure, definitely. And a lot more women I felt going out. But the thing is, I actually had no go out. Women's seat anymore here. No, I don't at all. So why did you choose to move to London? Of all places in the world, why here? I love it here. I love it forever. It's my home. Because I just, I don't know if you believe in this stuff. I probably lived here in some sort of past life. I'm really connected to London in many ways. And I've made a success from the minute I got here. So it worked out. It was meant to be. I thought I felt living in the States was quite restrictive. You know, I've graduated from college in 1986 and I went on to, I had a good job. I did insurance fraud, I had a nice apartment and I felt restricted and I wanted to do and experience something different. So what made London so different? Back then it was really much more bohemian and it wasn't quite set in a set of rules like you have, like you do now. You know, and I thought Boston, as much as I love it was quite conservative and over here it wasn't, you know, back then I shaved my head and I dyed a bleach blonde and I didn't want to work nine to five. And, you know, I actually started using drugs and drinking too, yeah. Just partying, I wanted to party. So I moved here. You could drink beer or the tube and there was loads of things to do here and I find, yeah, there was a lot more opportunity here. Well, free medical here, finding a place to live. It just felt, not, it's not now but felt more supportive than for you to have an alternative lifestyle would be my, what I'm trying to say. What do you miss today that you've had in those days? My youth. No. No, I'm don't, I'm really happy. I don't miss, everything is good. That's quite a thing. My business is really successful. I have a nice place to live, I'm happy, yeah. Okay. You know, and I have a lot of connections here. I don't miss anything. I mean, you know, that was my... Were there any adjustments you had to personally make in order to feel comfortable living here, coming from another country? Well, yeah, I have to say, when I initially, when I moved here it was really difficult. I had to get used to people's customs here. I got fired from a lot of jobs initially because of my mouth and English people are very different. I'm different. Americans are very different to English people. Just the language and the mannerisms and things like that. Yeah. For example? I just, people thought that I was rude. Too blunt? Yes. Ha ha ha ha. Yeah. Yeah, loud American, that kind of thing, yeah. So it took a few years. Also, I didn't come here with much money and, you know, London was relatively expensive, what still is, but back, you know, so making a lot less money than I was used to and trying to work on that. Like, for instance, I had a car and driving license and I, when I moved here in 1990, I didn't use it for 10 years. I just took public transportation, you know, just things like that. I did struggle though. I have to save it the first few years to get it. And then I'd often dream when I'd wake up that I was still in the States. And I, but I was living here. I gave up a lot. What did you give up? Well, my job and my home and everything like that. And I gave away all my stuff to try and start a new life. So yeah, the first few years I did probably, probably four years until I finally found my feet. Okay. That's quite a while. Yeah. What was the clip club? Oh, yeah. Well, I guess going on from chain reaction, they kind of folded and that didn't work out. And I was working at First Out, which was a vegetarian cafe. It's closed now. It was over here in center point. And just, you know, it was gay and women come in. There was an opportunity. There was a woman there and she was working at a strip joint on Good Street. And then she invited me to check her out, which I did. Nothing ever happened. But the owner was gay, Kathy. And she said, but I organize a party for her. It definitely wasn't my calling, but it just went from there. Okay. So I organized a few parties. I thought of the name clip club. And sadly, yes, I got in trouble for this. I took the name from a party from New York. Yeah. The promoter had come actually come over to London and told me off. Wow. Yeah. Julie is her name. Yeah. So what did you have to do about it? Nothing. She just said, you know, she didn't. She was cool about it, but she wasn't. Initially she was pissed off. Fair enough. Yeah. So tell us about these parties. So the clip club. So it was like on a Thursday night and I did it for a few years. And it was women coming in their fetish gear. It was women only. And I used to do little theme nights. And yeah, yeah. We had a little play room and played really good, hard music. Yeah. People just came to the weather gear because there wasn't anywhere for a women only space back then for women to wear any sort of fetish gear or whatever. Oh wow. Or to be open sexually. There wasn't. If there was lots of clubs and parties, but nothing like that. Okay. What evolved for you? Again, somebody called hold of me and offered me a venue in Fox hall years ago. It just started like that. Okay. It just, I thought, okay. So the women only thing is not really much of a, you know, you only get a small amount of people. I should open the doors and try to make it mixed. And that came from the fact that there was a club called Sadie Mazes on a Friday night at the lesbian gay center in Clarkinwell. But they closed down. So we were like, oh no, nowhere to go. So I just started from that. Okay. You said that in this time, you did, you really did hardcore sex. So what does that mean? Tell us about that. Well, you mean hardcore sex. As in, I told you we do hardcore sex. You said that in those days that that was something. The shows we did were pretty hardcore. I mean, you know, people actually having sex on stage or water sports or fisting or scar vacation and loads, lots of stuff that people hadn't been doing. Sadie Mazes would have an occasional spanky, spanky show, but we just ripped the head off that and went on to push it really far. Was this something you encouraged or did this- Absolutely, always. How did you go about encouraging these people? We don't, just letting people get on with it. People always say to me, oh, what's the rules here? I said, well, there isn't any. Okay. What can we do on stage? Well, whatever you want. Okay. So we weren't restrictive and what people were allowed to do. We encouraged a sex base, always, always. Yeah, always. That's what keeps me ahead of the game now. Okay. Yeah, the fact that I really, this allowed people to just get on with it. What connection do you have with the character of Freddie Krueger? Mm-hmm, none. Yeah, that name was given to me by another club promoter a very long time ago because I was on the door of a club at Beth, which was really popular for a few years on a Sunday and I wasn't letting very particular about who was coming in. So another promoter started calling me for, oh no, that's Freddie Krueger on the door. Okay. And that stuck, that's how- I just said, well, I just said, okay, then I'm Suzy Krueger then. Well, why not? Okay. And I've adopted that name so it sounds better than Whitehead. So it's a badge of honor for you. It is, yes. And I've known for that. So yeah, I said, Freddie Krueger, I guess maybe I was frightening. Maybe I was, I was scary. After being on, I'll be on cocaine for 24 hours, then I have to go to work on a Sunday night. I wasn't in the mood. No. And I would just say to people, you're not coming in. Yeah, I wouldn't do that now. What were you looking for in those days? What was the delineation? Looking for- What, who would you let in or turn away? Oh, the promises were that you were gay. Because a lot of people who weren't gay were trying to get in. So that was what we were trying to just keep it like that. You know, keep it an exclusively gay clone. Oh, okay. That's all. All right. You said that you were independent, that you did things your own way and that you didn't fit any molds. Why is that? How was that? Well, there isn't any female in all of the world that I know that runs gay men's fetish sex party. Do you know? I don't know. You're the only one. Yeah. That for a start. So what are your thoughts on that? I love it. What about it? What do you love about it? That I'm the only one that does it. That makes me unique. Yeah. That people know me for that. Yeah. You said you're the only woman in the world or at least in the UK that does what you do. Does it feel like an honor to you? It does. I've been known by so many, I've known by so many guys and that they own, hey, lots of porn stars in the sex industry. Well, yeah. I like that. Okay. I get into all the, if I wanted to, if I went out like in Europe, I could go to men only parties if I wanted to. You do parties all over Europe, but you've had problems being a woman in some of these venues. I recall you saying that at one time you had a problem with one of the events in Paris. Recently, yes. It's also a hindrance because people treat me differently. The people I do business with talk to me differently and I'm sure if I was a man, it'd be a little bit different sometimes, but it's just a battle I always have to fight, always. So yes, in Paris, I did do a party there recently and it was a disaster. Not only that, one of the cleaners wouldn't allow me in the club to the point where he actually assaulted me, which is a first. Yeah, he pushed me. Why was- And I was in my rubberist in the street at 11 o'clock at night. What does he think? I was going shopping. Wow. But yeah, it was very unpleasant that the, you know, that's a club. I don't know if I should name it, just say it was a club in Paris. And I have had people come up to me and look me up and down and it's like, this taste was tough. You're in my party. If you don't like it, leave. Let's explore being a woman in this situation a little bit more because I think that brings some unique issues to you because here you're doing gay men's themed parties, but you're a woman doing this. Yeah. How are you? But I'm gay though. I'm not a straight woman. Lots of people ask me if I'm straight or where's my husband or where's my kids? I'm like, are you kidding me? No. But so I might be a woman, but I am gay. So I'm gay like my customers. I'm not a straight woman. I think that would be kind of weird. Do they, are you treated differently by, for example, other promoters or venues? Yep. Tell us about that. Just the way that they deal with me sometime or maybe it's just some people are, yeah, they try to manipulate me or bully me. I'm not quite sure they would do that if I was a man. How do you manage that? I fight back. How do you do that? But in my old age, I just let them get on, I just get on with it and try and get what I need in a different tactic was before I'd be really aggressive and very argumentative, but I don't do that anymore. But yeah, I just feel I always have to fight my corner. Yeah. Always. Yeah, I would agree that if you were a man it probably would be. A little bit easier. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel- And I think some people don't like it that I am a woman. Yeah. Why not? Misogyny. Oh, of course. Definitely. Do you feel you've opened doors? Do you feel you've blazed a trail for other women to come behind you? Well, I hope no one that does my job come behind me, I'd be really pissed off. I'm glad if I have, but I don't even think of it that way. Yeah, I'm not trying to be a trailblazer for another woman. I'm trailblazing for sexual liberty for people to have a space in which they can come and enjoy themselves and let their hair down. That's what my thing is. Okay, okay. That is different. Yeah. Yeah. How do you feel you've succeeded in doing that? I know I have. I've been going, this club's been going 15 years and I'm still very popular. I mean, not me. The club is still very popular and we get new customers all the time. And you do these all over the place. What are some of the main places where you've done this? I have a regular stint at the Boots, which is a men only sex club in Antwerp. Yes. Yep, quite like the Boots. I just started doing it in Italy and at a sex club called Opochina in Padua. It's very small. Where else have I been? Everywhere. I just did Grand Canaria two weeks ago for the fetish week. I was the only female there. There was thousands of guys, thousands. And I had a very successful party on a Thursday. Yes, we do Grand Canaria, their fetish week. It depends. Different things crop up here and there. I mean, some work, like Paris, that didn't work. Why not? Just because it wasn't busy. Actually, there was a terrorist attack that night. Sadly, there was a stabbing down the road in the opera, six people, five people, with police and guns everywhere. Coupled with the fact that they are very fraught on with women. Their attitude towards women is terrible. So, on that night, yeah, it depends. Yeah, I mean, people, I get asked all the time to do parties here and there and if I like it, I'll do it. Where would you like to go if you could choose a place? I'm happy with what I have. Maybe, ah, I'll tell you, we wouldn't mind doing something in New York City, but I don't know how this sexual element there works. I did do a party in LA years ago for Gay Pride and it was okay. It wasn't great. The promoter was a crystal meth addict and he kind of left me on my ass when I got there. So I just, I actually had to borrow about 5,000 pounds to get us out of that because it just, it didn't work. And then they've got rules about you can't have sex on the same premises as you serve alcohol and yeah. I hear a lot of people in the fetish community saying that a lot of sexual activity is actually going underground due to restrictions like sex in the premises where alcohol is served has created a lot of trouble. How have you worked around that? Well, we don't have that problem here. I mean, it's taken a long time, but I mean, I've always gotten by just in that gray area of having sex on the premises when there's a bar. There isn't exactly a license for it. I did lose the club in 2002. I was shut down by the police after an investigation. Nothing actually happened to me, but the club was closed down, but I think there was some other political stuff going on behind it. So, but I started up again and whoever tried to close me down tried again, but this time it didn't work and here I am. So, I don't know, how do we, we just don't have any trouble. Okay. We don't have problems in my club. I think the police would rather that than people shagging in the bushes or out in the street. They come inside the club and you know, we don't have fights and stealing and things like that. So, police do know of me for sure, but yeah. Tell us about Hard-On. You just celebrated the 15th anniversary. It's very successful. So, tell us about that. How do you feel about that? I'm very happy with it. I'm very, it's taken on a new life. I started it in 2003 at a venue. Actually, I had retired in this couple. There were swingers invited me. It's a long story, but they just asked me several times and they said, okay, we're going to call it Hard-On and you're going to promote it because you're really good at it. I said, okay, I'll do it. So, and we started out and it was in a club in London Bridge, which actually got shut down by the police, but nothing to do with me. It had to do with the church of England, which was next door. I didn't want that sort of stuff going on in their neighborhood, the Archdeacon or whatever. But, yeah, I mean, we've had some down years. You know, we've lost our shine with the birth of apps. So Grinder and Recon and Scruff and BBRT, but that was a real big thing because I was offering a space to have sex. So people thought, well, we can just go on and up and have sex and we don't need to go out and pay to get in and you can't smoke in doors and anything like that. But I think we're having a rebirth. People are probably sick of those apps now. They've had their, they've had their day and right now we're having our day. Okay. It kind of went like that. It kind of went, you know, when I first started out, I was really busy and then it just dropped down and now it's picked up again. I think, yeah. No, please. I think people have got a little bit disenchanted with the apps a little bit of wasting time. This is what I say about hard on. You can come to my club, you can try before you buy. You can have sex with, I don't know, 20, 25 guys in an hour for 15 pounds. Or you can sit at home on the app, going through hundreds of people who are lying about who they are and what they are. And then they come to your house and there's no chemistry and then you've wasted your time. If you come to Hardin, you go in there and you just look, oh, I like him. I like him. And just carry on like that. That's what we have the advantage. Fantastic. You said you modeled the London fetish scene. Well, I was actually kind of kidding, but I mean, I don't want to be that big headed. But I probably did, I probably have opened up the doors to a lot of people because I have to say, the formula that I use for my club has been emulated by everyone and their mother. Okay. All over. I started out before anyone else with sex shows and a playroom, no one else was doing that. I started that in the 90s. Now everybody does it, everyone. Which is fine. I'm happy. I still do it. But yeah, something like that. I think that Fist created, that was my first club, created an atmosphere of sexual liberty for boys and for girls, men and women. I mean, there was Sadie Mazes, but Sadie Mazes was a little bit tame. And I have to give them credit. I mean, that was groundbreaking on Friday night. But they didn't have sex on the premises. They had a couple of spanky, spanky shows where we just went, oh, let's just go a little bit further. And so we've been like that. In that respect, I have created something here in the gay scene that no one else had. Okay. Definitely. How have customers' tastes changed over the years? In terms of their, in terms of the fetish, their clothing, yes, not so many people wearing leather these days. There's more sports gear and rubber, I think. Well, coming to my club, I know there's still a big audience, but I'm probably, it's not as big as it was. There is still an audience for it, as you can see when you go to Europe and Backstreet. But as for my parties, it's taken, it's become a less of a dress code than it is to sports kit or rubber. I mean, lots of people wear leather harnesses, but the Muir cap and the, you know, and the boots and the chaps and everything like that, I still, I find it very sexy. That's what I grew up on. But, and also I think it's very expensive. Yes. And I get, my crowd is actually getting younger and they don't wear it. Where are you seeing the older people? Are we simply placing out of the community? I hope not. Well, I'm in my fifties. We still get them, but they probably just, maybe they don't come to heart on them. But it's, I, it's still a thing. I'm just saying for us, coming to my club, leather wearing the full gear is not as popular as it used to be. When I did Fist in the 90s, it was very popular. Everybody wore leather. Definitely. And the clip club. Definitely. I certainly did. Yeah. But not so much now. We're looping back a little bit. When we were preparing for this interview, you said you're often seen as a bossy bitch. Why is that? Well, because I always, like I was saying, I have to fight my corner. No one, I guess as a society as a whole, they have an issue with strong women, don't they? There is an issue with strong women. And if there is a strong woman, she's a bitch. That's because, oh my God, she's a bitch. And because I have to fight my own corner because I want things done the way that I want to do, I have to be forthright and very strong with it. So, and I'm, you know, even on Saturday night, if I'm telling the guys this is how I want something done, do it. Yeah. That's what I say to them. Don't argue with me if I'm telling you to do something, it's because I know what I'm talking about. So just do it. So maybe that might be people don't like it. But yeah, they do probably think that I'm a bossy bitch. I actually don't care. That's fine. You're getting the work done. Yep. Then my parties are good. So I must be doing something right. If I was a bossy bitch with an empty club, then I think, okay, well, maybe I need to change. So many people in the community, anybody that takes a project like you're doing or even like I'm doing or other people do, we are often criticized saying, other people saying, well, I could do a better job or why isn't it being done like this? How do you feel about that? Yeah, well, we're all humans and everyone has their own opinion of how they want something done and the people criticize me or whatever I'd say. If you can do it better, then be my guest. Yeah. Go ahead and try. So I'm okay with that. You know, we're in the public eye, you're sticking your neck out. There's always gonna be someone who doesn't like it or doesn't like what you do or whatever. Yeah. Always someone. Just like the trolls on social media, you know, and I just ignore it or I block it. I don't get into any sort of whatever, very rarely will I say something. You never win. You won't win. You will never win. Yeah. Is there a key to your success? Is there something specific to which you can point and say that's why I was successful? I've been working very hard for 27 years. I work very hard. I am dedicated to my job, dedicated. I eat and sleep it constantly. So it makes it difficult to have a relationship. But I'm happy with that. You know, that's why I'm a hard worker and I'm fair. So I think that helps. And I care about all of it. Yeah. Talking about relationships. You said if you were a man, you'd have a thousand. Oh yeah, I would have slept with them all. But as a woman, why don't you have a thousand girlfriend? I don't go out on the woman scene anymore. Women don't cross my path really, because I'm in a male industry. Okay. Very rarely is there... And you don't seek out the company of other women? No, I have some friends that are women, but they're not gay. Okay. Yeah. Maybe that'll change, but that's where I am right now. Okay. But I would rather I'm happy to just work. All right. How long have you been sober? What brought you to that? 18 years. Oh, well, you know, after 10 years on cocaine, you sort of get bored of it. You get bored of it. And it was probably destroying my life in the end, or actually my emotions. And even though I could run my club from bed, from my bed, I just didn't want to carry on doing that. I probably would have been dead by now, because I really partied a lot, and got myself into some bad situations with not very pleasant type people. So, and I was just sick of it. Had to stop. It wasn't fun anymore. It wasn't fun. Using drugs at home on your own. It was a very lonely place, and being in a bad mood. Five days out of seven. Yeah. So I stopped. Did you go through the whole? I did. I went to treatment probably about five months. I did 30 days in a treatment center in Bournemouth. Now, Devon, and then I did a few months up here in Clapham, because I still wanted to carry on working my club. So yeah, things were just better for me. Just better. So you feel your life is much better now? 100%. Okay. I, you know, taking drugs on a regular basis. I was like, ugh, no. Also, as you get older, your tastes are different. I'd rather go on holiday, and sit around for three days on cocaine. Do you, what have you to say to the younger people in the community who are getting involved in all the drug scene? You know, pace yourself. Uh-oh. Yep, you'll get bored of it. Patience, you have to experience it. Obviously, clubs and drugs and all that around. Sex and drugs is a big thing. You have to experience it, I think. Decide whether you like it or not. Do you see a lot of people find difficulty? With the crystal meth, yeah. Is it killer? Do you take a stand with your hard-on parties? No. Okay. Wait a minute. We have, we had an issue with G, but it's kind of quieted down now. Initially, if we had a customer and they pass on a gene, if I went through their socks and found it, then I would borrow you for life, but I don't do that now. It's not as bad as it was. We had a period of time when it was very bad. Having to ring an ambulance all the time and babysit someone all night. It's tedious when we've got a party to put on. You know, if you can't. So, yeah, we're not super strict. Okay, okay. No, I don't take judgment on that. I mean, I did it. Yeah. I just wondered maybe for, you know, legal issues or something, whether that... Oh yeah, well, you get searched when you come into the club and you're not gonna be going to the club and see people chopping up lines on the side. Like, other clubs I've been into. But, yeah, it's not like that, but we're not policing it. Okay. That'd be like I've heard. Like, yeah, I've heard some stories of other venues where they really are very invasive in their searches and stuff like that. I find that really not nice. We're not children. Yeah. I think alcohol, if anything, is a destroyer in social, in opposed to drugs. I mean, in terms of people fighting and stuff, we've never had a fight in my name, my party's ever. Never. But alcohol and other, yes. At all, yeah. But anyway, it's a part of life drug, so yeah. Okay. It's not for me. All right. Anymore. What are your thoughts about the men who think you're straight? Oh, my God. How naive. I just, I guess, I'm shocked when people ask me that. Where are my kids? I mean, what the, really? Yes, I find it surprising. I look like a lesbian. Ha, ha, ha! But then, man, I just think some guys, gay guys, so I do have no idea about women or have no sort of connection. For them to ask me, is that your husband on the stage? I just, what, the, really? I find, I just can't believe it. I'm like, no. Why would you even think that? Yeah, I've had people ask me that. Why are you, why is there a straight woman in here? Well, where is she? Ha, ha, ha! Not me. So it's almost how dare you think I'm straight. Yeah, yeah, actually, yeah. I find that shocking. Mm-hmm. Ha, ha, ha! And you said that many gay men have no concept on lesbians. I think so. Yeah, about lesbians and lesbian sex and things like that. But then I guess, you know, looking back before I started doing this, I had no idea about fisting or water sports or felting or everything else. You know, I just learned it as you go along. So that's probably why. Okay. All right. What are your thoughts about the current leather BDSM, kink fetish scene? Long may it survive. Do you find it as liberating as you knew or? It was underground back then. So it felt like we were doing something really naughty. It was very much underground then and now it is and it's quite, like the gaze being gay in general, it's quite homogenized, it's more acceptable, everyone does it, it's so popular. So yeah. But do you think that's dumbed down anything or watered it down? In terms of what, way people dress, yeah. Okay. Yup. The sex play, the fetish play. Oh no. Well that hasn't dumbed down, not in my club. Okay. Definitely not. But back then probably there was a lot more, the BDSM sort of type thing. I don't see so much now, it's more about sex. Oh okay. As opposed to, yeah. All right. Where do you see your work and your parties going in the future? I'm just gonna carry on doing it while I always have an audience. So I'm not intending on taking over the world or buying my own club, I'm happy with what I have. Okay. Yeah, that's okay. If you could go back in time and change any part of your history, what would you change and why? I wouldn't change it. I would say, I was gonna say the drugs but then I experienced a lot through my drug use. So it's part of my life, it's okay. So no, I wouldn't change it. I probably would have changed some of the women I went out with, but you know, whatever. It's all good. What's the biggest misconception about you? That I'm straight. No, I don't know. I don't know, that I sleep in a dungeon. I don't know, I don't know. I don't, you know. Oh no, what do you think, Sam? What would be your misconception? The biggest misconception about you is that you are a bitch but you're so not. I'm not, no. At work, yes. If I needed to, I know that if I was in trouble I could call you one hand. Oh, one ton of percent. Maybe you can't get me. Yeah. There is, oh really? Okay, so there you go. That people think that I'm like a cold-hearted bitch and I'm not. Okay. It's just because of what I'm do, I have to sort of fight my corner like I keep saying which I feel like all the time and if someone's trying to take it from me or take advantage of me or steal something from me it's endless, always. But if people, I'm very good with my friends and fare with my guys that work with me, yeah. I would never hurt anyone or steal or something like that, it's not, I wouldn't do it. Maybe that's what Sam said. Well, I'm very grateful that despite having injured your foot. Oh yeah, silly. That you've been able to come here and do this interview with me and I thank you very much for being part. Oh, and thanks for asking. Of Inside Leather History. Yay! By our side chats. Okay. Bye. Thank you very much, Susie.