 be short, right? A couple of pages plus some reference documentation, but I think it'd be great to just have a maybe a side conversation with you on how your experience differs from mine or what publications you've already seen out there because there isn't a whole lot, especially on the clinical side, and Rich, that's where I'm going to recommend that we focus. Oh, that's fine, yeah. And I think, yeah, Wendy has great experience in this space, and so I'd love, yeah, I'd love that you guys can get together and work on this together. Would that be okay, Wendy, if I reached out to you directly? Yeah, that would be excellent. And yeah, the number of publications now has greatly increased. It started to increase again to 2018 and 2019 already. I think I have collected about 75 or 80 academic articles and blockchain in my personal library alone. So I keep searching, I search regularly just so that I can stay on top of the literature, and then every time I find an article, I add it to EndNote so that I can log it correctly, and then I can go through and make sure all the keywords are in there. I often add more keywords. And so I'm seeing a huge increase. One of the big challenges that I'm seeing though, Logan, is that most of them are just kind of introductory articles or like use cases. And I think that our community is ready for a lot more detail and meat that would help them actually implement some different blockchain cases or that would help them understand more details about what the obstacles are and help them overcome the obstacles. So I'll try and focus on that. I don't want to take over the richest call here, but I guess the specific things in terms of my research right now is that I absolutely agree with you that there are more articles, there's more PR going on, but there's in terms of finding actual people who are applying blockchain to evidence-based medicine, which is where I'm focused. There's almost none. I agree with you. So I'm going to interject. So this is getting to be a really good conversation. We'll have it offline. Yeah, and when we come back around to the update for the team, I'll add a comment as well because I'm excited to hear what Wendy's been doing. Well, so we are just past the top of the hour, so I wanted to say good-bye to everyone. We have some folks just now getting online. So good morning to Steven and Jeff. How are you doing, Jeff? Okay, thank you. Good to have you on. I think I saw you on last time, too, and I didn't say hello. Yeah, briefly. I was a little late. Okay, and that's been that's been lauding over me for the past two weeks, though. All right, so as always, first thing we want to do is go to the anti-trust slide, and I am sharing my my desktop. Please review this at your leisure. It's always available, and the upshot is be a good person. Oops, so with that said, let's see. So I don't see anyone. Is that Steven Elliott I see on the call, or is that just someone named Steven? Yeah, it is Steven. Okay, I know that's Steven. I usually change it, but okay. I was just looking to see if we had anyone new on the call, and so I'm just just sort of walking the list. These are some of the old-timers, so good. Oh, there we go. My world is right again. Oh, good. The weekend will be good. All right, well, let's let's sort of move through. Does anyone happen to have any kind of community announcement? They want to share regarding in blockchain or Hyperledger particularly. So, so I'll just sort of introduce something. So we do have a quarterly report that came out for Hyperledger, and it's a it's a deck of slides. David, sort of my contact with Hyperledger leadership is David Boswell. And I just saw a deck go by. I've asked him to generate a PDF and keep it up on Google Docs. And then I can share the link because I don't I don't I don't want to necessarily share a whole slide deck. But as far as quarterly report goes, Hyperledger continues to grow. The SIGs and work groups continue to grow. So there's some good discussion going on with with with respect to the technical steering committee TSC about trying to find better ways to get work groups and SIGs to communicate, which is fantastic for those of you that were on the call. I think it was last call or call before we had Vipin on the line and he talked and he drives the identity working group. And so he's all for trying to find ways for us to communicate better across group. And then in in line with that, I'm working with leadership as well to get all the SIGs to communicate sort of laterally as well. So we can sort of cross-pollinize and even even as it relates to just getting our sort of our wiki all synced up properly. So so that's kind of I mean this is all infrastructure stuff. So it's not it's not shiny particularly, but it's more logistics and organizational kind of the the side effect of all the growth that's been going on within the Hyperledger organization. So that said, let's move to our subgroup updates. And for patient, I don't see Benjamin on the line and that's not good. I think I'm seeing a pattern here. So I need to contact, I need to talk to Ben. I do know they've been having meetings. I don't know. I haven't heard from him in a while as to what they're doing specifically. So that's on me to sort of follow up. And then Ravish couldn't be on the call. He contacted me and he let me know and I think I've got a note from him. I don't know. Can you see that note? I'm just wondering if you can see this really small. Oh, okay. So I'll read it. Thanks Alan. So he has three things he wanted to update me on. So some of the previous members are back and active now and they're reworking the paper and the paper that they've been working on is sort of a kind of a due diligence on on on blockchain when when there are needs and where when there are not needs. It's sort of that sort of filter, but it's it's the idea is it's scoped around the payor space, but could be sort of recycled outside of that. What's ironic a little bit about that that paper is I host the the Seattle area hyperledger meetup. And this exact conversation came up at last night's meetup, which is boy, and the topic happened to be we have a local coffee company that's using blockchain for supply chain. The question came up and said, well, why can't you do with a sequel database? It was a very interesting conversation. So that that aspect continues and that's some of the work that revision his team are trying to sort of scope. And I'm sure when he has when he has seen these kinds of papers come and go, it's we're still in some some cases struggling to understand when blockchain is most vital. He has a survey open. This is open to all membership, just to get some ideas on on continued direction with the pair subgroup. And then this is a little cryptic and I need to follow up. He says he's planning for a physical event in the area to get more membership. So I don't know the details on that. And so I need to follow up with him on that. But but anyway, so that's where we are for payer. And Steven, you want to give us an update? This is getting exciting with with the work that you've been doing with health care and repability. Unmute, sorry. So it's it's fits and fits and starts, right? So we have got a reasonable charter and mission statement to move forward. I think the current task now is for me to work with you, Rich, to frame an introduction to the general membership and sort of mod this. Unfortunately, I'm very much occupied. I'm on a project that's losing people and they're not moving a go live date for me. So I have to pick up places and work in order to see my day job through. So I'm going to have to find time. I don't know if it's going to be this weekend, but I'm going to try and get it done before the end of the month so that we can start meeting sometime in April. I'm really excited about it. Although I think that we're going to get a little sidetracked because from my participation in the developer and the interoperable interest groups, they are having a lot of difficulty doing anything more than very small deployments of hyperledger fabric. And there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of changes, a lot of things going on. So I hope we don't get sidetracked anyway. We need to start working on defining what interoperability is, how we're going to represent that. So there's a lot of work to be done before we actually start building out the blockchain, but I can see that that's going to be not just a task for us to persist artifacts and assets on the blockchain and be able to retrieve them, but the blockchain itself, the hyperledger fabric blockchain. So I'll just add that the charter that you and Sonia put together is excellent. In fact, I'll make the statement and I could be jumping the gun. I think the charter is ready to go and I should have posted a link here for people to get to. I'll do that sort of posthumously. Yeah, I think really the next step as you point out is we just need to put together an introduction and get it out to membership. And you may want to work with Sonia on that as well if she's got spare cycles. So she may be doing a sort of first draft and then you can do an edit pass on it. But this is, as I think most people know, this is probably sort of really our first subgroup looking at sort of a bottom-up approach instead of a top-down approach, which is looking more at more generic services that could be used and recycled in other contexts. And so that's a very powerful way to approach a subgroup. And so this is, that's, to me, this is the exciting part. This is an interesting experiment. And I think it's the right way to go forward. So, yeah. And, you know, Steven, if you want, I mean, I think it's sort of a chicken and the egg thing. If we get that introduction out, you'll get a lot more resources that'll, you know, in turn sort of help you prioritize and put resources to the work that you're doing. So it'll take some of the pressure off of you, I think. Well, one of the things that we want to do is to be able to actually run this as a code development subgroup. In order to do that, we're going to need to have a code repository and some effective way of documentation you know. I don't know if the Wiki is the best place to do software design documents, that sort of thing. We can also do that in Google Docs or that sort of thing. But we'll also need to organize the work in order to do that. We'd like to use something like Jira. So I'd still like to reach out and see if we can't get the hyperledger management to provide us with those tools to be able to do that work. I think it'll make it a lot easier. We're going to have to do it one way or the other. Having the tools to do it would be sweet. Yeah, I think so we've contacted leadership and they're good to go. They just need sort of the problem statement. And I think that introductory email is a great sort of way to summarize it as well as a pointer to the charter because that's really all we need to have. Okay. Going forward, yeah, we've got resources available available to us from that respect. So yeah, this is this is really exciting. I did someone go ahead. Yeah, just going to say, hey, Stephen, this can all good. If you need some help with the charter, dude. Ken. Good to hear your voice. What a surprise. I know that voice. And good morning, Ken. I didn't see you on the call, but good to have you as well. Yeah, sorry. I joined late at a conflict earlier. So no problem. Good to have you on the call. Good. Good. So one thing to reach before you move on, Stephen and Ken and all others interested in interoperability. CMS had a webinar this week. So it was entitled CMS and ONC enabling data interoperability across the continuum. That's the care continuum. What attracted my attention when I sat through 90 minutes of our government talking to us about something that it's they make horribly complex and ugly. It is that they are focusing on something and they're calling their data element library. The reason why I believe this might be interesting to you is that all interoperability issues involving existing health care records are going to have to work through the issues around the current code sets and ontologies that are a part of health care. And so there's like a 50 page slide deck that I picked up from this. I'll be more than happy to place it somewhere or send it to you. Yeah. So that would be outstanding Logan and I'd appreciate it. Yeah. If you can shoot me the deck or a link to the deck and like I said, I'll turn it. I think usually most people PDFs are easy to sort of manipulate. I'd be happy to turn it into a PDF and then we can post it here. So that would be great. It's actually a PDF. I will forward. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So the thing that attracted my attention on this was that it's entirely focused on specifically in post acute care, yeah, which is addressing all of the issues that I want to see blockchain actually be succeed in health care marketplace. So I will forward that to you, Rich. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks Logan. Appreciate that. Okay. Good. So let's move on to our teams. So I talked briefly with Ravish. I want to say about a week or so ago. So the Wiki redesign continues and really at this point, it's migration over to confluence and we're still sort of mired. I don't think we're moving as quickly as we should. So that's really again, a question of resources. And so Ravish has continued to work that and again, part of this conversation, why it's moving as slowly as it is, is because we're trying to sync up with the other SIGs. And we do have new SIGs coming online. Like I said, we're sort of in a high growth phase here and it's interesting to try to keep everyone sort of synced up. So that's where we're at with that. And then as far as academic research team goes, Logan and or Wendy, did you want to sort of summarize where you're at? This is Wendy. I haven't been involved in any formal activities with this yet. So I am afraid they don't have much to contribute. The only thing that I have Rich is that I'm interested in all of the publications that you've already done. Thank you to you and to Adrian in terms of a great stepping off point in terms of the draft that's already out there. I'm trying to really address the specific issues that you mentioned in that draft, which is or specific needs and that is recommendation of use cases of the answer. We all know the problems with the implementing of blockchain within the healthcare in a very traditional oriented healthcare or healthcare industry that we have in the U.S. and worldwide. Hopefully what I'm going to recommend to you, Wendy and to Adrian is to try and drive to some very specific use cases that we can approach academic medical centers to see if we can find some partnerships to move forward. Yeah. And this is sort of the follow-up from the conversation at the top of the hour. Wendy, if you'd like to, I'd love to have you do so, I'd love to have you do so. If you could share some of that library of academic papers that you have available, if they're publicly available, I'd love to see if we can maybe create a wiki page as a reference. I know we started that several months ago and as we see interesting links in the blockchain space, particularly as it reflects sort of academic thinking and process, we kind of make a note of it. So I'd love to reprise that. Well, one idea I have is that as part of creating my in-note repository, I have made sure that each article has an abstract or the first few paragraphs and that I can export, I think I have 355 right now and I can export the list of the citations, the link to where it's found, and I added a note onto the link as to whether it involved a subscription or not, and the abstract. And so then anyone on the team could go through and identify whether the abstracts meet their needs and then click on the link and then obtain the article. If the article involves a subscription, I have it. I still have access to the university library so I download what I need and I could provide that to any individual privately. Oh, perfect. Oh, that would be fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, we'll take care of that offline. Just feel free to contact me through email and then we'll do that. We'll build a home for it, but that would be fantastic. Okay, perfect. Thank you. Alrighty, so a couple of old business items, and this is obviously kind of a light morning. This is great. This feels good. We have quarterly reports coming up. This is kind of a we're getting back into a groove. And again, from a historic sort of perspective, we went through kind of a reorg mid to late last year. And so we're getting back into quarterly reports. So if you happen to be a lead of either a subgroup or a team, I'm going to be asking you to sort of summarize the work that you've been doing over the past quarter, which is really beginning of the year. And that'll get reported out mid month, next month in sort of a summary page in the Wiki. It's a pretty straightforward kind of a quick thing to do. But just keep that sort of front of mind as we sort of move forward and I'll be generating email if you happen to be a lead. And then we, you know, so I wanted to get through this conference report finally because we didn't have time last time around. The upshot is for the HIMS conference back in February, there were two things that came out that I wanted to just bounce off of you. And I know we've sort of talked briefly on it. I just don't feel like we came to conclusion. And Wendy sort of touched on this or I'm actually, I think might have been logging the touch on the notion of use cases. And to put some context to this at the conference, I was very surprised that we had so many people asking us, well, where are your use cases? Which to me is odd only in that my sense was it was folks were asking to try to, you know, fit the square peg in the round hole, which is really just to, you know, another way to frame it is to maybe try to justify a blockchain solution, looking at it through the lens of blockchain as a technology and then trying to apply it versus we, you know, gee, we ought to sort of work the problem and then fit the solution to the problem. So I'm always just worry about it. But you know, on hindsight, I guess it does make sense. It does, I think it probably does help that if we do generate, say a list of use cases, we may, you know, folks newer to the blockchain technology space might have a better sort of sense for when the technologies are useful and when they are not. So, you know, maybe thinking of these as examples might be the right way to go. So anyway, so I just wanted to put that to the group here. We, you know, we really, we really haven't done use cases. I mean, we have a long time ago, and then they just sort of sat idle. But would people be in favor of sort of reprising that? And, you know, again, we can create a new page that, you know, we can point people to and say, here are some of the use cases that sort of demonstrate the true value of blockchain technologies. I'll open that up to the group. Yeah, I'll jump right in real quick, Rich. I think it would help for people to kind of wrap their head around. Yeah. What's not, that's the main reason. I mean, it's a trade off whenever you run the risk of pigeonholing. Yeah. Yeah. But it gives people a way to find, you know, basically signage, if you will, to figure out how they could potentially even think about something like blockchain. Yeah. It makes it easier to answer those questions of why don't you just use a SQL server? I don't understand. Okay. So, so I'd like to hear from others on this. I mean, and then I'll tell you sort of what our way forward would be for this. Anybody? Oh, am I going to have to pick someone? All right, Alan, you're up. You're the first one in my list. So go, Alan. I think, I think I can contribute to use cases. I donated that design flow for helping business people, you know, understand if, you know, this is the right approach for them. You know, we could build off of that. Okay. And so the notion of use cases is valuable in your, in your, from your perspective. Yeah, because otherwise they're going to try to chain wash everything like you said. Yeah. Okay. All right. I mean, the conversations that we've had, you know, like, you know, CVS is can we, can we do everything in blockchain? Well, there's probably a lot that we can do, but a lot of the limitations we found are, you know, identity based. If we don't have a good strategy on our identity, we're going to build things are going to be overly complicated, you know, in the future when everybody's got a blockchain, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Good. Good. All right. Anybody else want to weigh in on this? I guess the one thing that might be helpful is that in after doing my non systematic review of what's out there in terms of publications, it's clear that there's a lot of commercial work that's going on at healthcare or on blockchain. I mean, if you look at, you know, both the funny financial and administrative side, which is not a bad place to be communicating the value of what the technology can do, there's supply chain initiatives, whether it's equipment or pharmaceuticals, there's financial applications out there based on blockchain. Now they're being delivered like clearing house apps. And there's a number of companies and startups that are working in the clinician and organizational credentialing area, which fit right very well into blockchain and smart contract areas. It's, as I mentioned, though, at the top of the discussion top of the hour, there's, there's a very, there's a lot of suggested use cases out there around the patient actual practice of medicine or work clinical side, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Well, so the sense then is that it, I think I'm hearing that it makes sense. Does anyone else want to contribute the review? So I think that the use case is a visual clue as to what needs to be done. But I don't think in and of itself it demonstrates the, or highlights the features in the blockchain that make sense. So many people think of blockchain. And rather so as a distributed ledger, but there's a lot more to it, especially when you get to things like permissioned and private and public and where those nuances make sense in a use case. Our use case here is interoperability. So we will be focusing on a policy that will probably substitute, you know, something like a work or other policies, so policy of interoperability. And these kinds of things don't, you don't, they don't get surfaced in the use case. So I think the use case, once it's talked through, it's quickly, yes, you could do this with, with, with, with MySQL or SQL database. But you're going to quickly find that managing consent management, doing things like interoperability, it's going to be very, very difficult if you just have a MySQL database and everybody's putting data into it. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. That's, that's kind of what I was alluding to Steven is exactly that. And I would argue if you take it right and you, as part of the development of any sort of use case, we probably need to call out those key points of differentiation and that, that should just be part of the development of the use case where, again, we're now, we're shifting the conversation away from, well, what is a black chain to here are the strengths within this use case? I totally agree. So I, yeah, use cases are really important because it, you know, I think it provides you a workflow and you know, this is going to happen is going to happen, but it has to be, has to be framed in, well, this is what a blockchain brings to the conversation. This is not what, this is not what SQL brings this conversation. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good. Okay. So I think what we'll do is I'm going to, I'm going to put, I'm going to generate an email, it'll go out to membership and really what we want to do is develop a team that could start to develop, you know, build out and collect use cases and then what we could do then is bring them back to either probably to this group on our general meetings and maybe, you know, use that as a way to sort of vet the list so that we can sort of keep up on where we are with our use cases and whether we see them as, you know, demonstrating good value in blockchain technologies or, you know, kind of that bending backwards to sort of fit things in sort of sideways. And that's that again, that's kind of my concern is I just don't want, I don't want us to try to communicate something that is subjective or anything but objective. So I, but again, like I said, this, the message was absolutely clear from the conference. It seemed to be one of the number one questions, where are your use cases? And so okay, so we will do so. All right. So yeah, so I expect an email. Does anyone on this call want to want to sort of be the point person for this? And then I'm certainly help happy to help sort of facilitate everyone jump in. Well, there are so many use cases from the academic literature. Do you want to start by seeing us already out there or? Yeah. So, so actually, good idea, Wendy. I mean, what you have maybe, maybe sufficient for us to sort of parse out and just, you know, break, break that out so that we can have, you know, sort of pre-populate our use cases almost in almost immediately using the literature that you have available to you. Yeah, there's no sense recreating the wheel. Good idea. Yeah. Some of the use cases are well developed. Others are just theoretical. So it's, I guess, it's up to us to go through them and determine which are really which really contribute to the cause that we're trying to put forth. Yeah. And I think the, you know, the end goal here, as I imagine it, would be something on the wiki that people can go to and just use as a reference to go. Gee, I have an idea for using blockchain technologies and I'm not quite sure if it's the right fit. And then, oh, look here in this, you know, list of use cases, that seems to be about what we want to do. So that maybe demonstrates some, some sort of value or acknowledgement that the idea is somewhat sound. Or I think, as Ken pointed out, it's just, it's a great way of sort of understanding by example, where the value of blockchain technologies is and then sort of where it goes on to find. So, yeah, thanks Wendy. Yeah, that's a great idea. Okay, and then so the other aspect of this, which is maybe a little less pronounced is I did get questions about blockchain governance, which is really sort of long term understanding of how do you manage these, these sort of this newer technologies, these newer technologies. And it goes to, you know, more IT management and sort of what the technical understandings are, what the policies need to be, that are somehow unique to blockchain technologies, specifically, specifically. And then sort of longer term, you know, what I would imagine would be, and I'm coming from a technical point of view, DevOps, which is how do I make updates and that, you know, I don't lose my data if I make updates and so forth. Is this something that we want to try to address at this stage and within this special interest group? This is, can you hear me? This is Jeff. Yeah. Hey, Jeff. I think this is a critical thing. What we're, what we're, what we're discussing though, is really something more generic than specifically healthcare. That doesn't mean we can't do the heavy lifting if no one else is, but, you know, in the, in the use case discussion, really a lot of that is very much in parallel to what we're trying to do in the payer subgroup coming up with this framework for evaluating use cases that determine if they're, they're legitimate applications for blockchain. And the governance is again, something a lot more generic that really applies across the board. You mentioned some of the issues about the data, but you also have the issues of, if you change something in the way the blockchain is, or the application is structured, do the members still want to be members? Yeah. Have you alienated people and, and I'm not sure, you know, yeah, it's a really critical area. And, and if no one else is taking it up, I think it's important to be taken up and maybe so if we have the interest, we can start doing it, but it really requires, it's really something that's kind of should spread across all of hyper ledger, in fact, all of blockchain. That was going to be my, my comment before, before you, that seems to be a global concern. And because if I'm making changes to whether it's the application, the smart contracts, functionality, whatever it is, it doesn't matter if it's health or otherwise, it's, it's an inherent feature of blockchain. So I guess my question would be, is there something already going inside of another of the things? Yeah, exactly. And so Ken, I just wrote down, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm, I'll take this, I'm gonna push this up to leadership and ask them the question, since this is sort of something that to me is, is a little more cross cutting. You know, who wants to own this or who's doing work currently in this space and how do we sort of at least monitor the work that's going on in the space? And then, you know, if nothing's going on, how do we get something that, you know, is maybe crossing or cross work group to, to sort of facilitate? So contributing, contributing totally makes sense, but anything we would run into any other implementation, regardless of vertical, would run into as well. Yeah, yeah, excellent point. Excellent. Okay, well good. So I'll take that. And like I said, I'll run this up through membership, through leadership and sort of see where, where folks stand on this. Because yeah, this is absolutely very, very good point. This is absolutely something bigger than, than healthcare. You know, I think the way the question was framed was, you know, more from a healthcare policy perspective. And of course, you know, as we all kind of know, healthcare is steeped in policy. We seem to love our policy because we're so, I think, in part, so closely wedded to academia. And so, but, but yeah, I think you're right. It makes absolute sense to sort of maybe see this from a, from a different perspective, a much broader perspective. So I have a note here, I'll, I'll take that action. Okay, and then we've so new business and this is a little bit exciting. Because this is really scratching the itch that came out of the, our membership survey. And this specifically out of the survey results, people wanted, you know, more sort of interaction with the, with the healthcare community and what people, what other people are doing with blockchain technologies. And so out of the HIMS conference, I met David Holding. He's with Microsoft Corporation. So for me, he's, you know, not too far away. We're both the Seattle area. He happens to be the principal healthcare lead. And he gave a great presentation at the blockchain symposium, the day before the conference, which was very, very, I think, well accepted. I think we were about 95% full, which was amazing for a first time event. And his focus is really on, and I don't want to get too much away, but the notion of using blockchain technologies and some of the security implications that come from that. And I've asked him if he could reprise his talk, he said, yes, he would love to. And I got sort of, I got a double dip from him. So he's going to also speak at our local Seattle hyperledger meetup as well. I think June, July, but we've got him at the beginning of April. So our next HC SIG general meeting, which is this forum, we'll have David speaking for probably half an hour or so and then Q&A for the rest of the time. So we'll have, we'll have next meeting really set up for him to come and speak. And this is exciting because again, like I said, from my perspective, this is sort of helping to address some of the questions that came up in our membership survey. And so anyone on the call, if you know someone or you want to, you yourself want to present to membership, this is the right forum to do so. Someone wants to get a little more commercial and they have something that they want to show off. I'd be happy to, you know, to make the time to do so. Any thoughts or insights, commentary on this? Okay, so that's kind of it. We're, like I said, we're kind of late this week. So if anyone, I'll open this up and let's think big, let's talk about the SIG at a general level. Where do we want, and I always ask this, this is, I've been told I'm a critical person, so I take that as a compliment. But, but maybe not. But anyway, I always look at ways to improve things. So I'm going to, I'll ask this to the, to the group today. What do we want to see changed with this HC SIG? And I, you know, it sounds like a loaded question. It's really not. I'm trying to be as, about as objective as I can. Nothing. It, we're perfect. I'm not, I'm not buying it. Can you hear me? Yeah, your mic's still on. All right. It got suddenly very quiet. You know, I'm happy, you know, like I said, I'm a critical person. So I love, and Jeff, I'm surprised that, that you're not chiming in. Jeff and I are very, we both come from the critical world. We like, not cynical, mind you, critical. I laugh, but I don't have a comment. Okay. All right. Well, keep, keep your, you know, keep, keep thinking. My, my interest is to continue to grow this, this SIG, where I think we're on a thousand members or so. You know, my concern is whenever I get notifications when people get added to the SIG list and when people drop off, and it's a, it's a very, very large special interest group. And it, you know, part of that is because of what happened last year with sort of the spin up with cryptocurrencies and people, you know, really had an interest in, in the whole blockchain technologies. So we've gone through what's called a crypto winter for most people, I'm sure you know that. And so, but my interpretation is whenever I see someone drop off of our SIG, I go, gee, what could we have done to have kept that person? And so I, I don't focus on the new people getting added to the list. I, you know, I obviously, I care more about people that are dropping off. So again, this is, I'm trying to be about as objective as I can. If there's anything that you see that you'd like to change in any way, shape, or form, please, you know, please feel free to speak freely on that point. Okay. Well, take, take that one for the weekend. And, you know, if you want to contact me via email, feel free to do that as well, or, you know, run it through the full membership listserv as well, if that's more appropriate. And if there's nothing more to be said on that, our next meeting is the fifth of April. And again, like I said, David holding will be our special guest. He'll be speaking about the work that he's been doing through with Microsoft Corporation on their work in blockchain technologies. Anything else? Anybody? All right. We, well, I think we stand adjourned. So thanks, everyone. Have a fantastic weekend. And we'll see you in a couple of weeks. You as well. Take care. Thank you. Take care. All right. Thank you. Take care. Thank you.