 glad you all are here in the main charitable mechanics association library one of the best rooms downtown. We're here for the third installment in the makers at the hall series showcasing makers talking together about what it is to make things in Portland and this is a series of lectures ongoing the last Wednesday in every month. So next month we're going to have Doug Green speaking the summer is TBD we're looking to have a social event for makers in July a panel discussion in August so we've got a lot up and coming. The series is generously supported by the Warren Memorial Foundation so thank you to them for that and tonight we have Kate Anker with us from Running with Scissors and I'm going to hand over to Kate to give us an idea of who she is what she's done and then we'll move from there she and I'll chit chat and then bring you all in. Great. Well thank you for having me I'm really not only pleased to be speaking here but that this is a series that you're doing I think it's really important and it's really interesting in our community to bring light to makers of all variety and share it with with everyone. So I've always been a maker I guess you know maker of mud pies when I was a kid maker of great fantastic messes in my bedroom as a child and and I grew up with makers I grew up in the Midwest my father was a carpenter my mother was a weaver and there were just always artists and makers and I've kind of recently but they never described themselves as such so I kind of started thinking about them as farmer artists they were just it was just something that they they did and it was always a part of their life and I didn't realize that until of course I went away and had some distance to what a gift that was to be around. I didn't follow any kind of linear path like most makers although I'm always astonished by people who do find that linear path and just go for it very awestruck by those people who can do that. I always knew I would be doing artwork in some form of my life so I went to school however I also love science I went to school pre-med thinking art would just be my side gig and by about sophomore year I fully switched to art and Asian studies studied Japanese and printmaking and ceramics and spent some time abroad and really got some fantastic experience that way but again just kind of always circling this path of making never really gravitating to one medium and worked as an apprentice after college so I had the this was a really traditional Japanese apprenticeship even though it happened in the Midwest the man I worked for had studied in Japan and became a master potter so we did everything you know working our way up we were apprentice one apprentice two apprentice three and everything was very hierarchical and like that and then I came to Maine actually for a internship in bookbinding I again went another route after ceramics and explored that for a while fully intended to just spend three months out here but darn it's just so beautiful my parents after you know 17 years keep saying so you're probably not moving back I am now married with two children and both of us have entrepreneurial jobs here in Maine so yeah mom and dad if you're watching I'm not coming back and then I also when I moved out here I kind of put the ceramics aside and was doing bookbinding and printmaking and so I opened up a restoration bookbinding and letterpress business that I ran for five years out of the state theater building and a couple other studios in Portland and South Portland had the experience of moving a letterpress and 20 cases of lead type around way more than any of my friends want to remember or think about and and then after five years my husband and I had purchased a an apartment building to live in and we rehabbed it floor by floor which was also another intensive learning lesson as a maker of a different sort and then we we ended up having to sell the business had some had my first child and found myself all of a sudden as an artist and a maker without a home so I stumbled upon running with scissors studios and to rent time on their printing press and started working there that was 2006 so about ten years ago and I worked very happily in two different places that they had their space and then about in June it'll be five years that the owners the founders came to me and asked if I'd be interested in buying the business so never thought that I would be but again it's not that linear path it was a whole lot of circling and wiggling and everything but it was this aha moment of the combination of so many different paths in my life coming together and so that's when I became the owner and director of running with scissors which is segue into so running with scissors is now a 13 year old artist studio organization that was started by three women who met during art school at a couple different schools USM and Mecca and they left school realizing they're missing three really important elements community space and equipment and so they decided to do something pretty crazy and made this group and it's grown ever since then and we are now in our third and hopefully final building we moved about three years ago and we were about 15 artists when I bought the business in 2011 2011 and we're now 58 artists so we're we're really really excited and I think as we'll be discussing it it gives a lot of a lot of testament to the growth and the strength of the creative community here in Portland and around so that's kind of what running with scissors is in a nutshell but yeah I sure do great come on in so you talk a little bit right at the beginning about how you you were a maker from little yeah and I think most of us can sympathize with that for sure being a maker as a little person and but you had the extra fortune to have adult makers around you and now you're in a building with 58 and now you use the word artists but they're making things and so we've had conversations you and I about what that word is this is a big buzzword right now this word maker what does that word mean for you today right now and who are who are the makers of Portland in your experience yeah I think I think maker is something that's having a bit of a resurgence I looked it up in the dictionary today just as I was trying to explain to my children you know what a maker is and they of course kept asking well why is it this well why is it that you know oh I better go to the dictionary because you keep asking and it was really interesting to see the traditional sense was a person or a company or an entity that makes something I thought well that's pretty big you know that's and then the urban definition was more in line with where my feelings are it was a person a person who has passion about creating something with their hands and then it said it was also tied to kind of the maker movement which is also incorporates sharing of ideas sharing of knowledge and figuring out ways together to do it whatever it is you want to do the way I interpret that is also in a fairly broad sense you know I think that I enjoy visualizing you know culinary makers and more industrial makers welders and woodworkers and but then I also you know painters and print makers so again it's I think for me it's someone who is passionately creating something with their hands and in today's culture I think it also involves a lot of community around either sharing of ideas or sharing of work I think that I was thinking about this and I was trying to explain that I also think about it a little bit like a square in a rectangle for the terms artist and maker and that you know I said well I feel like an artist is a maker but is a maker an artist and where does that come in to play similarly you know not all it's I'm gonna get it wrong because I'm not a mathematician because the yeah not all rectangles are squares but all squares are rectangles yes thanks dad so I think that I think it's a term that has evolving means for me meaning for me and I think I find that it does for a lot of even the makers that I talk to and I think there are maybe levels of makers as far as their intent on what they they do with what they're making and I think that that's really fascinating and like any kind of movement I think that terminology and that layering kind of evolves and and it kind of has to learn who it is and what it is and you know so I think that that is I think we're in an interesting time and so yeah yeah and that touches so many like deep like questions with a really long history yeah I'm reminded hearing you talk of the way that the arts and the crafts have had a similar is every craftsman an artist is every artist a craftsman and I feel like you know those are words that we're having that same you know doing the same dance over time and and to the the word mechanics in this room in this building yeah that word too was a really broad word which I realize is in that little play within a play in Midsummer Night's Dream the rude mechanicals come out to make their play and they're all you know a tinker and a right that's who they are too yeah so this is an old an old question yes renewed for our time yeah yeah it's the debate of the arts and crafts from the 60s and you know 50s coming kind of back around and I I think that anytime you have discussion about that it well one it indicates that people are really interested in that they're interested in making they're interested in what we do with our hands and our creative expression and I think you know discussion and even disagreement because I know there are a lot of people who will disagree and say well no it really has more to do with technology and you know that kind of the inner play possibly of technology and fine art and you know I think bring it on let's have those discussions let's yeah because it means that we're actually thinking about it and exploring and then usually when you do those things growth happens so you know that is what excites me about a lot about the maker movement and so yeah me and in Portland who who what are what are makers doing in your estimation here in Portland yeah you know there are communities all over the place but yeah this is ours yeah yeah no I think I think we have a really interesting and diverse group of makers right we have you know we have a blacksmith a traditional blacksmith and we have groups like open bench project doing really fantastic you know more industrial hands-on educational things we have also great film and video happening and you know this kind of collaborative co-working happenings in so many a culinary is really obviously we're in Portland and it's to all of our benefits that we have always fantastic you know culinary makers but I think that it's even more I think you know I've been approached by people to they can they build a tiny house in our parking lot you know with a tool library we have the resilience hub we have and they're all making things rocket they call them rocket chimneys yeah the rocket stoves they're amazing they're amazing and yeah and fantastic and you know I just down the street from us I mean if you just look at East Bayside as a little microcosm of the greater community of Portland you know we have weavers and people sewing you know there's a slow clothing movement along with a slow food movement and a gathering of stitches having these great workshops on how to make your own patterns again and you know I mean my mother made all of our clothes and I was little and you know I didn't think anything of it until later and I thought I have no idea how to make my own underwear this is fascinating why would I ever do that but that's incredible that you did thank you so I think I think we have all kinds of makers and I think it's a really rich culture so I mean I could name so many there are some makers that I would like to see more of I'd love to see glass blowers and sculptors more coming in those take a lot more infrastructure so they're a little bit harder to infuse into a community on that kind of more DIY scale but I feel like again as all this attention and interest is happening those bigger um communal things infrastructure can also be born so so making so many glass makers out there yeah let's do it yeah and I feel like that's an interesting comment how you know we're getting critical mass of other kinds of makers who aren't blowing glass but the glass blowers might want to come and join the party right um it's a great party it's a great party yes and so we were talking earlier too about um how did you say it just a minute ago about the sort of levels at which people are involved in making it's not everybody is making their living making their whatever they make not every painter is making a living as a painter right every everybody not everyone who cooks even cooks very well is making their living right um cooking but some people are and some people are are wanting to and trying to yeah and I'd love to hear what you think that's like for people in portland who are trying to take it to that level to to make a living as makers and what challenges people face how does that how does that go yeah um I think that like any small business there are a lot of challenges obviously but I think that the um the artist the maker the creator of um you know a small business uh with a product it's um it's uh I think it's really challenging here I think we have a lot of interest we have a lot of support we have you know these people um this community that's really interested in the handmade in um what people are making but there also reaches a little bit of a level of critical mass where um I think you know there there's just so many people who are maybe selling their items and only so many people here in our community um but I think that you know they can buy them so I think it's there's some challenges challenges there um but I constantly kind of trying to talk to people about if we switch 10 percent of our purchasing like we do like we have for um local farming local agriculture to local locally made products um everywhere from you know finding someone in Maine to or in portland to um you know take your your wedding photos or make your dishes or your clothing or you know your artwork for your walls um it really all that money just funnels right back into our our central community so I think that there are some challenges of of education and just getting you know continually getting the word out that this is a wonderful thing but we also need to support that wonderful vendor it will kind of go away won't be sustainable um and then I know you and I've also talked about um the challenge of having all these makers selling in a similar format online or in local fairs um sometimes the person who is trying to make a living at it is at a table or a booth next to someone who um who doesn't need to be making a living or isn't really the focus and the person who's really trying to make a living is pricing their work at a level that um you know they've worked out all the cost of goods and their overhead and they're really trying to um price their work accordingly and the other person um might not have that same focus and therefore the competition is really is tipped the kind of the economic bar is a little wonky at times and I know that's something that our artists struggle with a lot is just how do you you know as we said it's one thing to compete with um items made maybe out of the country um that are at a lower price but when you're looking at two locally handmade items and one is a fraction of the price of the other and they're both equally well made how does that um how can we level the playing field a little bit um and you know that's something that we try to work on and discuss in our community of makers um but it's also kind of a again a bit of that education for the the greater community so I think that's a struggle I think um obviously um being that often one person show of the designer maker bookkeeper you know 17 hat wear is is a real is a real struggle and um the scale at which um you know a lot of makers can move is very slow it isn't um you know like the start of a community there's a lot of buzz with startups and um but they're really interested in rapid growth and scalability whereas someone who can throw 100 mugs in a a week you know they might not be able to throw any faster than that and um or they might be able to go slightly faster but there's a limit to how quickly they can scale and how you know what kind of room there is for them to grow so I think that growth is a lot slower and economic times can shift very quickly and and um just the the culture and the way um our technology works um and when I had my business many years ago um 10 12 years ago um you know it there weren't all these internet platforms that I could sell on so it was really challenging to meet my customers in a way that's much different now and in five years I'm sure there will be things that we have no idea even you know will exist for people to have for sale platforms and marketing and you know all these things you'll just have a hologram when you hand it right over to your client and um whatever but um I think that you know technology is a big thing for someone who does a traditional craft trying to keep up also to be you know learn HTML or coding or whatever to just be able to meet the demand of the culture um the rapid growth of that part of the business is um not a skill set that everybody has that they can have that many different hats that they can wear well yeah so yeah wow so it sounds like if I've heard you right you'll correct me if I go astray sure um but it sounds like like someone who really loves throwing pots and wants to make a living throwing pots has all sorts of like if I it sounds like there are like two main things like one is having to do everything which is problematic yeah um and I think it's faced by any artists like a lot of people face those those issues being their own selves but this issue of scale seems also really fascinating yeah um because there's the personal scalability and many people choose making pots because they don't want to throw more than 100 months in a day right that is the that is the human limit right right I don't know I'm not I'm not gonna say that's the limit because I will be called out by all my ceramic artists what did you say that yeah yeah so so the scale of production is one thing but then this technological thing I think it bumps up against what we what you were saying earlier about you know local spending your dollars locally in a really interesting way doesn't it because then the one hand being able to sell online helps you by broadening your market base so it's really easy to scale up your market base yeah at least technically right um but that also puts you in an interesting place in your local community and as a localist you know from here in Portland Maine if I can see all of the letterpress printers in all of the US then suddenly right you're competing with the whole of America yeah um who are maybe yeah which is just gosh that might be a lot of people it is a fast-growing trend yeah um yeah yeah it is and I think that that's um that concept of of growing I mean if you have a business you want it to grow and do well and you know either sustain itself hopefully or um or really um thrive and I think there's all kinds along the way there's all kinds of um hurdles that you know you kind of start very locally and you know you may reach that broader community very quickly and I think that is one of the you know fascinating things with our technological advances that we can um and many people here um do that you know they they live and work here the quality of life is something that um I mean you know we all cherish it's what kept me here um but um making that livelihood based on this direct community for a lot of people might be very difficult so um you have to kind of maybe not with every everything but choose do I stay in focus locally do I try and reach a broader base how again does that relate particularly if you start locally and report yourself to be you know local certain people don't have issues with it and sometimes the business does it really is um it can be a tricky situation for for locals sure yeah yeah one of the many interesting dances we're all having to do right now isn't it yes yeah yeah yeah and so speaking of like how can how can we support people who are like doing that crazy thing like taking that big risk and try and and try to put themselves out there yeah and make their living on their craft how can we how can we help yeah should we help yes yes yeah yeah I I think that um it's it's being well first of all just being aware you know that there are all of these um various outlets for um purchasing right I mean if we're consumed looking at ourselves as consumers of products of services um to really try to put into practice looking very close um to home first before jumping to um the internet to just find the easiest thing that might be you know in California or New York or wherever but um taking maybe a little bit more effort to just say I wonder if I could get a whole set of dishes for my wedding locally made yes you can I just want to say you can and they're beautiful and wonderful you can you know your clothing there's so many things that you can um get just you know steps away from your home and I think if we even just could put into practice um doing just just a little bit more and making um other people your friends and co-workers aware that you're doing it I think then you're just spreading the word that hey there are a lot of people here and we may know about them but it's one thing to know about and another thing to actually go and seek them out and purchase their work and it's it's actually interesting I have some very good friends who come to our big um open studios which are in the spring and the winter little plug um around mother's day and and the seasonal holidays in the winter um and they say why I'm saving up you know to come to your two big events so I can get you know the work from these artists that I love and I said that's fantastic that's great but did you know you can actually call them up anytime you want and like hang out in their studio and talk to them directly and you know have that same um experience of getting it directly from the from the maker um anytime you want and it's you know it's just that communicating and that educating and I think if we all just keep talking about it and keep encouraging each other to consider it and to kind of get it into our habit into our practice um of our you know just kind of um voracious consumer nature um we're going to consume so we can consume from local makers then I think that the return it's been proven time again is just enormous um you know to the community to keep that quality of um vitality and enrichment um and just the economic situation um you know if I buy things from my neighbor she can turn around and buy things from myself and my husband and you know it just it comes full circle so you know the buy local it's there for it's there for a reason it works for sure and it's nibble too because I remember that when was it I had that I had a hook situation there was odd corner in our house I hope it I hope it turned out all right it sounds awful no but it was you know it was the moment that our blacksmith could sort it out in a second yeah but because none of the Ikea solutions yes would fit and I thought you know that's the trouble like it's one thing you know scaling up production yeah you lose a certain kind of new illness yeah because if I could call the blacksmith and say look there's that weird corner yeah in his house what can you do he would say well you can do this or this or this and we could talk about it and do exactly what that corner right or exactly your own body shape and fit um just so by your tailor so I think those are yeah there's nimbleness and yeah um sort of precision our advantages that come to sometimes oh definitely definitely talking straight to you yes making a thing for you yes exactly and um and you know I think that the really wonderful thing about you know the more I talk to people they say oh that's so great well did you know there's also this person who does this and no you know tell me about it and it's like this is fantastic you know so it's it's um it's really it can be really addictive to realize that you can you know just get these things local and there's um there's also such a richness that comes from being able to say you know oh like the person who made my bag well let me tell you about her oh she's amazing and you know and the leather comes from here and I learned this about how you sew these things and you know um just when I give a gift I know that I can not only just give an item I can I can give it with this incredible story that goes along with it and um I think that that's something that you know we all have our phones and our technology and we everyone says we're so um becoming so separate from each other and distant because of that I think that this maker movement is a fantastic way to bring us all closer and bring our stories because when we make something we make it um from our our body and our person and everything that's inside of us and so then when we sell it or share it with somebody else then that's just you know a connection that is so unique and strong and and it's powerful wow it's powerful it's powerful it is yeah yeah yeah and now so in a way picking up there because you've talked a lot I feel you've made this motion a lot about hanging it together yeah um do you want to say a little bit about where you fit because it seems to me that that might be one of the things you do yeah um yeah and I do it more and more often um one of my personal and Running with Scissors missions is to elevate the the artist that we have the um and by that I mean their their opportunity to be able to create what they want if that's through equipment or community support or space um but also through connections um we are you know we have this power in numbers now which is really what I had hoped would happen but with 58 come together um it's it's um given us a kind of strength that's really interesting and um so I'm one of the things I'm trying to do is kind of trying to take advantage of that and connect artists with um local businesses um I met with edge compoters today who are doing we're starting to do a partnership with um this is the second month that they're highlighting one of our artists in their stores and um really giving an experience to our artists that um you know they maybe wouldn't have otherwise been able to to do um we're working with um a couple other local businesses and designers um and just making those connections so I do a lot of introducing connection making um talking with um a wide variety of um businesses designers um and just kind of working to build that knowledge base for them that again they can go um and and meet directly with an artist and get something very specific for their business for their um staff for their um design line um and it's really um it's really something I enjoy a lot um because seeing that connection happen I know that both the artist in our community and my local businessmen or um service provider has found a solution to their problem that's unique and um more sustainable to the community so it it me it you know handles things on a lot of different levels so um I do a lot of that and then just talking um as our community internally about the business struggles the how do we um handle these in a creative and communal kind of way and um so that's also a really important part of um kind of you know all of us rising up together and we're all at different levels you know 58 people on their creative path um I always say that I try to meet someone where they're at find out where they go they want to go and then try and figure out well how do we you know how do I play a role in that and sometimes it's you know just be here when I need you um and and sometimes you know it's it's um just the process of talking through things and you know um um introducing them to people and that I've met and kind of cultivated relationships with and everything so so it's um yeah it's fun sounds like one of the things you're doing is making community aren't you I'm making community but it's true but it's true you know that's an invisible yeah sometimes invisible version of making but it's real yeah it is and I think um I mean I feel extremely fortunate that you know I get to make community with fantastically creative people every day so you know it's it's pretty pretty awesome um and they make it a lot easier by being being that way but they're definite you know hurdles and such um to to work around but they're you know creative problem solving is what makers and creatives do do well so it's what we kind of search out in a possibly masochistic way you know why do I look for the problems to solve because then I just have to solve it you know but um but you know thank god there's so many problems to solve so we can we have job security forever um where yeah and if it were too easy you have to make a problem first yes it's true it is yes yeah good at making problems as well that you have to solve so yeah just ask any of the artists they will probably attest to that I bet I bet wow well I think this might be a great moment to open it to the floor and see what you guys think what what questions might have come up as we've been talking what sparks your interest yeah and that's it so some some subcategories of makers or communities within Portland have started bending together and acting as a community I think the best example is the brewer skill yeah which has done a lot and had probably far more of an impact than they could independently from one another definitely and it seems like with the density of makers in Portland there's an opportunity for the makers to come together and have a similar voice and I don't know if you might speak to that um yeah I I agree I think that you know it's one of the reasons that when I bought running with scissors very quickly you know I realized there's there's strength in numbers we all have similar problems that we can help each other with and and and to that effect you know celebrations that we can share and learn from from each other I think it would be very powerful to see more of a formalized maker artists I know there's the artists union that many artists subscribe to and are a part of I think that to some degree you know as I said we're kind of in this evolving terminology of what is a maker and so I think there are definitely factions of the makers that that will gel together a little bit easier than kind of the really broad scope of them but I'd be really interested to see I know well this this organization yeah definitely role and bringing together that big tent of course and and doing something like that I would love to see that I think it'd be great I firm believer in in individuals and groups coming together and ways to you know lift all votes and so that happens you know let us know talk to us yes yeah okay there we go I'm there um but I do think it's um um you know I so when I said I purchased running a scissors it sounded kind of easy like it was just a natural thing to happen um but really I'd been an artist and a maker in Portland for you know many years and I filled out many surveys that you know different groups had had sent out asking questions like do we need an artist collective do we need studio space do we need what do we need and you know dutifully filled out my surveys and I kept kind of looking around for okay well I'm done my job and I'm waiting you know when's it going to happen and so when um all right and Susie um said they were going to sell my first inclination also was oh my gosh 15 of us are going to be studio lists you know what are we going to do who's going to come in and again I kept looking around going you know someone's going to do this right and when you look around the room I've heard it termed if you look around the room and you know someone's being a jerk and you can't figure out who it is it might be you so I kind of had that same feeling of not being a jerk but just um you know I've been looking for someone else to do it and then I realized oh wait a minute I actually I think I think this is me I think I'm supposed to to take this on and so I think that you know if that happens with um the mechanics all you know that there are often you know we get caught up in in realizing that we're saying something over and over again like I think this would be great to have happened I think this would be great don't you think it'd be great it'd be great oh maybe I'm supposed to do something about that because I keep saying it um I think there are a lot of people who probably have similar ideas and thoughts and so also kind of going out and you know not saying it has to be one individual but finding those other groups or individuals who are kind of saying the same thing kind of going who's going to do this who's going to make this happen say hey don't you think maybe we could all come together and and make this happen and um you know makes the job a lot easier if there's more of you so yeah so then so that begs the question what is what are the recurring themes for you that you keep hearing over and over where wouldn't it be great if wouldn't it be great if yeah these are potential acts that we could potentially think of so it's a dangerous question to ask a creative as we talk about certain things yes yeah um so the big one that we heard when I initially um started you know and I made this really kind of groggy awkward shift from hey I'm one of the makers to rents do um that was a really it was a strange transition um but as soon as I did that my ears were also open to okay I've been hearing my friends who are working in the fire arts saying my building just got sold or the zoning change so ceramic artists were kind of the first group that we heard a lot of people saying I don't I lost my studio I I can't have my kill in the basement of my apartment anymore which actually kind of makes sense um and um so that's when we built out the basically center so we um really consolidated that group of people who were kind of making the most noise about losing their space that and also jeweler's metalworkers so we also made sure that we could accommodate um those we don't have a collective metalworking studio but we have the ability to um serve uh metalworkers on a small scale not welding and such but um jeweler's particularly and so those were really some of the first kind of big things um that we heard and you know we filled up our ceramic studio within the first three months you know went from two to 20 um in three months so that was you know a clear okay that was what we were hearing was true um and that's actually our fastest growing group is the ceramic and fair artists um but to that extent like I said um I'm not just wishing there'd be glass studio I do hear glass artists I I get calls um you know I'm I'm moving up from Florida I had a studio in New Hampshire do you know of any um you know buildings even just you know do you have any buildings you know of anybody with a glory hole um so I hear a lot of that um woodworkers um a lot of furniture makers um who need a thousand square feet that's affordable and that's the trick um I've been working with um one of our um actually as a volunteer um we were trying to do something in house um at a level which really coming back to that scale issue just wasn't going to work inside of the scale that we have going on at Running the Scissors um and so I'm working with him trying to find a place locally where Running the Scissors could be a kind of um partner in it more of a supporting partner um but it would also have some reciprocation with um the woodworking studio that would be at a more um upgraded level but really finding a location that you can have that kind of square footage an industrial setting that isn't being um I mean the rates that I've been seeing are pretty daunting for anything you know within a radius of the people that we're hearing so I'm hearing a lot of you know what it is in some way yeah yeah like the portable housing yeah you're going to be on the yeah floor or anywhere near it yeah and so I suppose because that sounds like a bunch of different groups of people with really specific needs yeah that have the same baseline yeah which is affordable space yeah and so what would advocacy for something like that look like because it seems like you know we at the mechanics hall we probably can't rent out square footage to you know the glass artists yet as far as I know yeah I see Sam look at Tom I don't know if he has something that works he puts something in the base I think that Tom has been talking about for a while yeah and an idea that we've been trying to advocate for and you know to be sort of very it's difficult and still to convince the powers that would be and people to subsidize things like that when you could rent it out bad market range or whatever and so I suppose that raises an issue like it's one thing for an organization like ours to just to think well okay our pressure point would be to to take on a space and and be the subsidizer but something else would be maybe more in line with the education element that you're talking about so maybe how would people in need of creative spaces all over Portland come together and what would they say what would that unified voice say yeah how would that voice be saying it yeah I think it you know very well how difficult it is to pull together a I mean to pull together a self-sustaining in a way even subsidized there has to be a way to make it sustainable in our current community in the parameters that we have and I say that kind of in a way that Maine and Portland are wonderful we have this incredible group of creative people of you know people who want to be who are here for a reason but we also are you know somewhat isolated in our northern northeastern geographical position our population isn't always I just don't know if it's necessarily always there to support things in the way that we want them to be supported in I think it could be but I I wonder about that I feel like I go down that path and I find that's where I hit my head on the ceiling is you know when you kind of quantify it out can this be supported in this way now I have talked to I that being said I've I've thought about that in the more traditional sense of you know a non-profit subsidized maybe by the city or something like that but I think there's a lot of interesting models that are occurring in communities similar that are more of that community purchasing the coming together of again not waiting for someone else to do it but really figuring out outside the box way to own what we want to see happen for a while I was looking at some creative real estate you know options with different people who are interested in those things but it takes a lot of organizing and getting people to be on the same page and have the same interests and have the patience to have it matriculate in the way that you know slow moving large projects do and patience is is hard in our rapid paced world these days you know so I think that I don't know I wonder if it isn't more these smaller entities coming together being independent but being in a collective together so there's skin in the game there's a communal interest but the burden isn't on one overseeing group or subsidy or you know grant because you never know who is going to be in charge of the the grants or the laws or whatever the amount that's going to get released to creative groups and that might last for five years and then it's gone and then you're you know have that challenge so I think I was thinking about the public market house which is the public market yeah those two great things you know very real very realistic the businesses who are there are making work in a very real way versus the government run version that was grandiose right far too far too much than it could chew and that fundamentally didn't work financially and I think that there are ways I mean before we were in the building that we're currently in there was a project that I was working on where I had that more encompassed kind of hive of running with scissors is this part this studio element but then let's have three or four other entities that are you know more industrial more food production you know just that could work really well together and be supportive and also need that kind of space and then have a communal center and store and everything and it was it was really tricky we were very close but I I find that it can happen even in a neighborhood like East Bayside and it can happen in a bigger way as long as there's this kind of underlying idea it it can't it's harder with the things like you know bringing a glass studio together and a wood a large wood studio but I think that I think there's a lot of buzz about that happening and I think you know it'd be great to figure out ways to say oh you're working on this I know you're doing this hey I know this other person's doing this what if you guys looked at space together and you know try to figure out a way to do that but again everyone's path happens at a different speed so one group might be really fast on their track and the other group might be slower and how can you get them to kind of come up together just free information there's some discussion it's it's advancing fairly quickly about converting the general store okay public works yep into an apprentice training facility awesome you know that's 36,000 foot yeah print with another 6,000 yeah but that involves the union who fortunately have money yeah yeah so that's that's kind of advancing at this point but the question is is the remaining four acres yeah that I would like to I'd like to see converted into an economic development zone but also those thousand square foot manufacturing spaces that are impossible to find important so yeah thousand two thousand square feet at an affordable rate is highly coveted by either a small production or you know a new business and they're they're they're very very difficult if not impossible to find and so that would be that would be really exciting um oh yeah can I ask some non-space I'm I'm thinking and I you know I'm thinking selfishly about this organization and we're not going to solve the space issues for making movement in this building but what could this organization do that had to do with promotion or had to do with bringing people together so they met each other you talked about making these connections or what could we do about training in certain areas that you have people who have uh are artists one sort or another and they have come together and all of a sudden they have to run a business and they're like do what how can yeah is there a training piece there that would be useful what are the various things you know we've sort of got the organization we've we have a mission yeah we don't really know clearly what those needs are that we could actually be fulfilling yeah I think you really touched on something that is is so important is um just going out and and really connecting with people and finding people in a way that's you know direct and not through the internet right because if you're somebody who's looking to you know be an apprentice or be work with somebody else and you're also on the other side you're that small business or creator you may not know what avenue how to find that other person and and we so often just go we think that this is the only way to find someone and you know more often than not the people who really need help from the person who might just be down the street they aren't putting that anywhere or anywhere that both of them know where to go to find it so I think it might be really interesting I mean this is really lovely just to sit down and talk about things what a novel idea um yeah um but really to have um that kind of forum where you know you are reaching out to the group of people who um want to want to learn want to be of assistance and then those who really need help and I know it's tricky because a lot of those people who are needing the help are often so like this that they can't even see that there's someone just over here going I know how to help you just come to this thing and you're going to meet all these people who can help you um so I I think again that's one of the roles where I see myself um a little bit like a mother hen I'm always with my artists saying hey did you know did you know did you know there's this there's this thing you can go to and you know more often than not they're like could you just stop talking to me um it's trying to work I like I know but I know somebody could help you work smarter and that is hard um you know I also need to take my own advice but um I think that finding those connectors I know two degrees of Portland does a really good job at connecting certain groups but I think that there might be groups that need to be reached out to to say hey we would love to connect you with um you know these other traits people when I when I did the traditional Japanese apprenticeship um I really kind of I really wasn't going to go back to ceramics but this man was so compelling I thought I have to work in the studio regardless of what it does to me um but um I had never considered an apprenticeship in this day and age you know as at this traditional very traditional sense of you know a certain length of time that you're with someone and you're mastering these certain skills and going up this kind of progression I think there there would be a lot of interest in that and I think there'd be a lot of people who would be amazed to find out how much somebody who's interested in in learning those skills um you know can enrich their own business and their own creative path so I guess that doesn't really give you an answer but just that that really trying to connect in a face-to-face way I think is really powerful directories are great you know lists of people are great but somehow trying to bring people just in front of each other and I know that's as we were saying it's really hard when there's a million fascinating things in Portland to do every night to choose yes I'm going to go out and a limb and do this but I think you know to your point of organizing the makers I think the more organizing we can do in supporting each other on those paths the more likely connections are going to happen and the more likely you know it's that grassroots community organizing you know just get right back to that technology is great for you know your calendar and all kinds of things but nothing beats just meet and face-to-face ways to face thank you this is really fun