 My name is Dan Mogulov from the Campus Office of Communications and Public Affairs, and welcome to this edition of Campus Conversations. We're joined today by Vice Chancellor Oscar Dubin, the Vice Chancellor for Equity and Inclusion. I'm going to read a brief bio, and then Oscar will have a few opening comments, and then we'll dive into the questions. Oscar was appointed Vice Chancellor of Equity and Inclusion at UC Berkeley on July 1, 2017. In that capacity, he leads campus-wide efforts to broaden the participation of all members of the campus community in support of the university's mission of access and excellence. Working with the university community, Dubin is responsible for implementing programs and services that lead to academic access and success for students, enable pathways to leadership and advancement for staff, and provide equity for all. Before his current appointment, Oscar serves as the Associate Dean for Student Affairs and Associate Dean for Equity and Inclusion in the College of Engineering. In these roles, he guided programs to recruit and retain students from historically underrepresented groups, supporting efforts to achieve a more diverse faculty, and ensuring that the college fosters and maintains a welcoming and inclusive environment. For those efforts, he received the 2016 Chancellor's Award for Advancing Institutional Excellence and Equity. Dr. Dubin, notice I'm changing from Vice Chancellor to Doctor now, is a professor in the Department of Materials Science and Engineering and Faculty Science at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. He received a BS from UCLA in 1989, and an MS and PhD from Berkeley in 92 and 96, and joined our faculty in 2000. And so without further ado, a few opening comments about where things are and where you're headed in your division, and then we'll move on. Well, thank you very much, Dan. Thank you very much to all of you to join me here in this conversation. I'm certainly looking forward to your questions and also being able to share what I've learned over the last couple of years, and also where our Chancellor and Campus Leadership is visioning the work of E&I moving forward on campus. Say a little bit about the E&I division. We are about 170 strong, and we do work across many, many groups around pre-college engagement, around supporting our students here for success, working on faculty and staff diversity issues, and also working in general on campus climate. Oftentimes we are, when the word campus climate is used, that's something that is really connected to our division, but in reality, we are just there to support you all in promoting a positive campus climate and identifying those actions that we can take to make sure that the campus is welcoming and supporting to everyone on our community so that they can be successful, so that you can be successful, so that I can be successful. So it really is about feeling belonging across the board. I do wanna say one thing is one of the things that I really want us to think about in the conversations that we've had a lot around diversity. We are at a point where the university is really redefining itself, transforming itself in what it wants to be as a leader in higher education in the 21st century. I know we're already almost two decades into the 21st century, but we still have a long way to go and understanding how the future of Berkeley involves the university responding to being responsive and informed by the diversity and the rich multiculturalism that exists in California and beyond to meet our mission of educating future leaders, future change agents, and also to produce research and knowledge that is relevant to all of us. And I think that's really that journey that Chancellor Chris often talks about. My goal in particular is to really make sure that we are promoting belonging because when we promote belonging, when we can bring our full authentic selves to every dimension, every part of the campus, that's when all our talents really come to bear on the very, very important issues that we have to deal with. I see this in research, I see this in teaching, I see this in service as myself as a faculty member, and I certainly know that you all value what the importance is of promoting belonging so that we can all bring our talents to really address the important issues and work in the best way possible together. Thanks, so it was interesting. Just yesterday I got a call from a reporter at the Chronicle of Higher Education wanting to know what our response was to what she perceived to be growing opposition or skepticism about diversity infrastructure. And in fact, we've had inquiries from right-wing media outlets asking about what they termed the exorbitant sums that we spend on diversity and infrastructure, and clearly there's some skepticism. When I went to college, there wasn't a division of equity and inclusion. What's the case? What's changed? Why is that, in your opinion, a necessary part of a campus administration of campus services and programs now? So I'll say it's not my opinion, it is a fact that we need to move into these spaces. And it's not just something in the academy, it's really a conversation that is happening across the nation, in other countries, when you think about just using just a term diversity, how much is it being used now, more than it was being used even five or six years ago in our conversation, in our political conversation, but also in industry. So there is a real hunger and need to understand what this idea that we need to serve more diverse populations. And I'm gonna take it now to specifically say to a place like UC Berkeley. The fact is that an institution like UC Berkeley was built by white cis male scholars and leaders, and that's not what the future of the society looks like in terms of what higher education needs to serve. We need to be involved in co-creating a university that embraces the rich history of the campus in the parts that it has done well, but also co-create, co-reform, and co-transform the institution so that it is meeting the needs of society as we see now, not a society that we saw say when this campus was first founded. So it really isn't about rejecting a structure, it's about understanding that structures need to evolve as we need to understand who their structures are serving. And that is happening in the tech industry, it's happening in other parts of society as we become more multicultural and more diverse. The structures that we have now, they've worked so far for society, but we're not the same society we were even a few decades ago and we need to understand how can we be as nimble and as responsive and as impactful in our structures and our systems to address society today. And I see that as an essential part of not just UC Berkeley, but as UC Berkeley, we have a special responsibility since people look to us for leadership in that space. And so it's not restricted to just universities, it's something that I think is a conversation we're having across the board. And it's super important, so yes. So beyond evolving society, to what extent do you also think that the growth of importance and profile of the diversity and the equity inclusion infrastructure is also a response to changing student needs and interests and expectations of what sort of support and services and programs they'll get when they go to college, has that changed? It has changed because we're serving a different society right now. So when you look at who was here, just all you have to do is look at the old photos. If I were to come here and look at the alumni from say the 50s, the 40s, the 60s, and you look at who alumni are now, we're here in the alumni house, it's a different community. So what we really need to do is not reject all the structures that have built this great university, but understand that it is not necessarily positioned to serve the society that we need now, the students that we now are faculty and staff who are engaging in these existing structures that need to be helped to move forward. And so that's one of the things that I see you and I doing. We are kind of that arm that is helping, not responsible for the change, but helping the rest of the campus affect the change that it needs to have around making the curriculum relevant, making sure that the needs of our richly diverse multicultural students are being met, understanding that faculty leadership and staff leadership matters. We always want to see ourselves and our leaders, and that really inspires us to do even better. So all of these parts are parts that you and I is involved in, and we are there not to hold that, but to help and support the rest of the campus move forward in these spaces. So what do you think the skepticism is about and why somehow diversity has become a politicized issue? Is it a matter of racism, or is it a matter of a different vision of what an institution of higher education should be about? How do you see that? I'll say yes and yes. I think it doesn't have to be an either or. I think depending on what areas we're talking about on campus, on this campus or other campus, it could involve from racism to inertia, you know, especially I think there's a special challenge with an institution like UC Berkeley, which has been associated for so many years with excellence. So if you're an excellent institution, why do you need to change, right? And that's how we think about diversity and inclusion being a part of that change process. But the fact is is that excellence in my view has, there's a certain relativness around what is excellent. So what was excellent 100 years ago is now being defined in a different way in terms of how it is excellent. And I think, I do have an example. I was thinking about this because this comes up pretty often. I'm a big fan of, I'm not a big athlete, but I like sports analogies quite a bit. And I was thinking about, for example, basketball. Who is an excellent basketball player? If you had to say before the three-point line came to exist, if you could shoot a basketball from mid-court, it was still worth two points, and that wasn't deemed necessarily as excellent. But now with the three-point line, that's a structural change that's something that has happened in the game, suddenly shooting above beyond, what's the three-point line, was it 23 feet or what is it? It's something like that. Suddenly, that is a metric of excellence. So that's not anything, that's something that has evolved in terms of what is viewed as excellent. We have that type of same situation in the academy because when you think about what our mission is of, our mission is on creating knowledge, on educating our students to become leaders and change agents. In what context are our students going to become change agents? What is relevant knowledge in society now compared to what it was 50 years ago? So there is a certain, I would say, temporal context to how we view excellence and how we position ourselves as an institution and leading the way. So I wanna go now to the, in December, the Chancellor Chris sent out a message about the Undergraduate Diversity Project. That's right. Talk to us a little bit about the significance of that message, also about the goal that's been established to become a Hispanic serving institution, I think in 10 years, right? In 10 years or less. 10 years or less, sorry. And the challenges we face to do all that given that we live in a state where Prop 209 is the law of the land. So about those three are sort of the significance of that message, the whole HSI subject and some of the challenges. Okay, so as you all know, the laws of the land say we do not use race, gender and other identities to hire or admit. So every student who is coming in to the campus has been admitted by their own merit and the review of their application, not based on their racial identity or gender, but based on what they're going to contribute, their potential to contribute to the campus. The fact is that we have more applicants who are amazing than we can accommodate to the campus. And I think that's where the conversation, part of the challenging conversation is. Defining excellence, like I just mentioned before, how are we defining excellence and merit as opposed to qualification in an application process? But I just want to reiterate that regardless of the diversity efforts that we are embarking on, it's not about changing or circumventing any law that exists here on campus. So I just want to say that first. I think the professor, Chancellor Chris statements around diversity, I think really have reverberated in our communities. I think now our communities are thinking about how will that really come to fruition? HSI is one of those. HSI meaning Hispanic Serving Institution. What does that mean? In the Department of Education, it means that 25% of the undergraduate students being served here on campus are from a Latinx background. There are also additional criteria around costs of attendance and around student, the demonstrated student need that that population or the campus overall has for undergraduates. So it's a little bit more complicated than just ethnicity. But I think what's important in this case is to really understand that even if we hold admissions constant so we're not changing anything there, we could do a lot to help students to become more attractive or I'll say more compelling candidates by just helping them, for example, not just in preparation, but also helping them understand the admissions process, helping understand what it means to fill, to write a compelling set of statements, of four statements. What does it mean to think of Berkeley as a place that is their dream come true to come here? The fact is that Berkeley is gonna continue to be highly selective unless something changes dramatically UC-wide. So it's not really about changing that selectivity. We could work in the margins on that but it's really making sure that we are reaching out, engaging our high school students and our community college students to consider Berkeley as an opportunity that they just can't pass up in applying for because it's just so compelling to be here. There's another side of that which is what happens here on campus. So it's not just about saying, well, we are a great university, we have, this is an amazing university. Every time I come here, I think and I talk to students and see what they're doing when I see what faculty does, when I see the spectacular work that staff performs here. This is an amazing place. So, but sometimes that narrative doesn't translate into what students are hearing, what they're, what the message is that we are sending to students to make them interesting in making Cal one of their destinations. So it can't be, oh, we're so good, you just are going to apply because you assume you want to come to a good place. It can't be that. It has to be, why do you belong here? What are we doing to encourage belonging of you with your, in your experience that is going to be relevant here? So, if I am a student who does not see other students like me on campus, that's a challenge because what's the message that I'm sending? I'm sending the message that Berkeley isn't for you. So that's why encouraging diversity but also encouraging belonging of all of our diverse populations here on campus is instrumental to sending the message that this is Berkeley is a place for everyone. It's still competitive, it's still rigorous. We need to meet you where you're at, not just tell you come where we're at. And that's part of the work of UNI. So, but it really is that interplay of engaging before students come in but also making sure that students see that this is a place where they belong and that the place that they should aspire to. It's like going to the Olympics. We're not all can become Olympic athletes but we all can have dreams of, my daughter does gymnastics for leisure. Maybe she's dreaming about going to the Olympics even though she's likely never to go to the Olympics but you can still aspire to that and that aspiration itself is a huge gift that allows you then to go and explore yourself, challenge yourself and realize your potential. So we're gonna dive into some of the questions that have come from the audience. And the first one is equity and inclusion is often and in parentheses unfairly seen as the campus PC police. I'm assuming that's political correctness. Can you take a moment to respond to that and talk about your specific goals for your office? And I think behind that is some concern that maybe we talk the talk well but when it comes to sort of walking the walk and specific goals and metrics and all the rest that maybe there's a disconnect there. So think about sort of that broader context. You're gonna have to read the question again because the part E&I is often Sure. That distracted me. No worries. E&I is often seen as the campus PC police. Can you take a moment to respond to that and talk about your specific goals for the office? So this is, E&I is here to serve the rest of the campus on being able to promote belonging for everyone. So we are not the holder of that. We are here to help others. It is the case that sometimes if it's a campus climate issue, by the way, we're going to have a campus climate survey. It should have launched Monday but we had a little glitch but we are going to, it's launching, do we know? It's gonna be launching very soon and you'll have two months to fill it out. I really ask and urge you to help us gain information about us so that we can do better. So that's my only, that's a plug that my experience survey it's gonna be coming out. But I'm going to say one thing around, the word political correctness has its own political implications. I would argue that if political correctness means I respect you for you who you are and I'm going to agree to disagree while not insulting any part of who you are in your multiple identities, we all hold multiple identities, then I'm for political correctness. What is wrong with having that level of civility with each other? And I think to say that you and I is doing that, I welcome that. I welcome that opportunity for us to find ways to engage with each other for who we are, respect our differences, but understand that we are coming from different places and we can still have a conversation. To me, that is really at the heart of what I would call the way I see what political correctness is. So now those political correctness mean that I'm going to, I'm free to attack someone based on an identity that they might hold. Well, free speech means that so long as you're not in some areas that you can say things that are rather heinous, right? And that's part of the free speech that's the price that one pays for having that incredibly important right. But it doesn't mean that I have to endorse that behavior. And I think, again, sometimes PC is couch in that context, but I think if we all want to be productive in collaborating with each other, we have to accept all of who we are and be able to agree to disagree while understanding that it's the fullness of who we bring to the table in ourselves that really makes a difference of why Berkeley is so special. And so I'm happy to hold that. And I think that my goal is to make sure that I support all of you in holding that too of having those conversations, respecting each other for who you are in your fullness and being able to agree to disagree. And the specific goals that your office has. All right, so right now we have a number of specific goals. Our goals have evolved a little bit as we have, as the chancellor has moved forward with her vision and also with the strategic planning process. But there is no doubt that a couple of concrete goals are really to make sure that the work of equity and inclusion is really that we are connecting and engaging all of you beyond our division. So one of my personal goals is always to find ways to make sure that while we are promoting an inclusive climate in our spaces that we are also creating and supporting you in creating inclusive climate in your spaces because it can't be that we're okay here in most of our spaces and there are challenges over here. So that connectivity across campus is really important. I specifically see that to be really important in the academic units. I think the fact is that we are a faculty governance institution and so we need to get all our faculty or as many as we can engage on the mission of equity and inclusion on the mission of co-creating the institution of producing belonging by co-creating all together. So that happens through having leadership in staff and faculty that reflects who we are. So one of some we have initiatives working there working with our campus partners. It means that we're going to work on making sure that we pursue HSI, this increase the population of Latinx students but not just for the numbers but for what it reflects about how making sure that Cal is seen as a place that is welcoming not only to Latinx but to others. Right now you may know that at least over 50% of California public high school graduates are Latinx but we are less than 15% of the undergraduate population. So what is that about? We are working on those types of issues as well. Other things that we are working on of course are on African-American initiative, right? Making sure that our community African-American community not just students but also faculty and staff are also feeling that they belong here, that they feel belonging so that we can benefit from the talent and the richness of that community in our enterprise. There are issues. We also work with there are a number of faculty diversity initiatives that we're working on because that is something that we work with the vice provost for the faculty on moving forward. But I think ultimately the way I want our work is about helping the campus make sure that every member of our community feels valued and supported for success in their work and that is our students, our staff and our faculty and that to me goes back to this issue of belonging where we wanna feel that we can bring our full authentic selves to all parts of campus and that means that we need to be quote creators of the very structures and policies and practices that are impacting that local environment. And all our programs are really designed to help move that forward, helping the institution meet our community members where they're at to the extent that we can rather than always asking everyone to say this is where we're at and you need to come here, change to those structures that I talked about initially, those structures that are initially designed to serve a different community and population. So these next two questions I think go to the heart of some concerns people have or a certain degree of dissonance. They hear words about co-creation but what they see around them, around campus stands in contradiction to that and I'm gonna read both of the questions here. The words diversity, tolerance and community are tossed around a lot but the real work actually includes not just a seat at the table but true power sharing is the university position to work toward power sharing even as the chancellor's cabinet is overwhelmingly white. The second one, which is related, do you have a divisor's suggestions on how to manage the white fragility of department and institutional leadership and are there resources available to support the staff of color who often take on the educational slash emotional burden? So again, I think you roll these up into, there's a pretty clear picture being painted by these pictures and how do you respond? I must say that I've been on this campus for almost 30 years. It'll be 30 years in August. I came here as a graduate student. I've been a faculty member for almost 20 years. So there are always challenges. I think that's true of any organization. I feel very fortunate to be frank with you to have the opportunity to work with the leadership that I work with now. I find allies. I have allies in those conversations that you've mentioned. We need to have allies and we need to have allies who don't look like us. And I think that when I think of myself as a Latinx faculty member, when I was in grad school, didn't know really any other Latinx engineering PhD students. But I found allies and I found ways to understand what it means to, I need to be in community, I need to be in multiple communities. Some communities fulfill one part of my need as a person, as a human being, as a Latinx person, as a male. There are other communities that fulfill other types of needs that I have. Those could be intellectual, around research, whatever my persons are. Being able to go across communities is very important because we are not in a place where one community will address all of our needs. The important part around this is that sometimes it's not easy to go across from one community to another. We go from one community where we feel comfortable, we bring in our full authentic selves, then we go to another community where I have to check a part of who I am. I won't maybe bring my Latinx in a certain space. And so navigating through that is really what we're trying to eventually disrupt so that I can always not worry about what space I'm entering, but just being in that space in that moment. When it comes to leadership, it's very similar. I need to, if I am not bringing my full perspective to say cabinet, I am not doing my job. So that's where I sometimes get out of my comfort zone and say things that maybe I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable or why do I have to say that, but at the same time, I know that I have allies in that cabinet. And while they may not look like me exactly, I don't look like them, but I know we are working together to resolve issues that will impact the campus and making sure that we're always there working together on that is really important. And I think that frankly, if I didn't feel that way, I probably would have not done this job. And I had this amazing, I would say, I had this amazing job over in the Hearst Mining Building where I'm a professor. And so long as I feel that I can make change, that I can be in partnership and allyship, I see some of you here. I think that's what change is about. It's not always waiting for that perfect circumstance, but sometimes understanding that you find allyship in places that you don't normally would expect and you move forward with that and really then create something that will be in the benefit of many others. In terms of wide fragility, I would say that we are all of us, whoever, I'm not going to judge others what it means. I think the important thing we always need to understand is how is this, how is any organization, including UC Berkeley, how is it structured around power and how is the structure around privilege? And those are things that are not always transparent, but they're always operating one way or another throughout our organizations. And it is sometimes hard to explain that, but it's certainly something that we always need to have that conversation and to eventually be able to do what I was mentioning before, which is accept each other's in our wholeness and then agree to disagree. Move on to a related subject, but we've seen particularly, I think in the context of rising tensions between the United States and China, the chancellor just put out a message having to do with unfortunate interactions. We're also getting a lot of scrutiny from the outside about our relationship with graduate students from that country and faculty and corporate partnerships and all the rest. In the context of that, here's the question that came from the audience. What is the UC's vision for supporting and valuing our international student population? Often international students are left out of equity and inclusion efforts that primarily focus on, I think it says, domestic diversity. International students may also identify as first generation, people of color, et cetera, while also facing issues related to nationality, immigration status, and culture. So I think the request here is just to sort of address efforts, priorities, values, and commitments around that portion of the campus community. So I'll say that's actually something that is very important and relevant to someone in my space because as you may know, the field of engineering, the college, is actually richly diverse. And we have, I have faculty colleagues, I have my department, I have students who have been international students. I think that we can never underestimate the important, and I'll say crucial value, it is to have that global engagement. And the way I mentioned it is, the way I think about it is that when we're trying to affect change, say, in either creating knowledge or developing a vision for what society can be like and should be like when we have those aspirations, whether it's a green economy, but also very other social justice issues that Berkeley is, people look to Berkeley, say around disability. We were the leaders in the disability, disabled students' revolution that happened decades ago. We are known internationally for that. If we don't engage with a broader global community, then we are not going to be able to have the type of impact that others are asking us to have. So I think that's a really important part. The other important part is that it is important as we become more globalized for our own students to understand what does it mean to engage with a student from other countries, other, not just, what does it mean to engage with students from other states, right? So just that whole picture around what diversity really means is essential. Now, there are very specific situations that are happening with China and the US. And the fact is that the national dialogue and climate does come to bear, not just in this space, but in other spaces on Berkeley, because we are that stage where many want to come and stake a position. I think I really supported, I supported Chancellor Chris and Vice Chancellor Katz's statement that we really, community is community, it's everyone. And while it is a fact that we as a division are working to support groups in particular that have experienced historically high levels of marginalization, that is our responsibility. That's a societal responsibility that is in our societal context. That is really important. It doesn't mean that when we have opportunities or when we can have strategies to engage the community more broadly that we don't, we do that actually also. But we also have a responsibility to the side we have here today with our context. So I'm gonna say like this year, this year is the 400th anniversary when the first ship arrived with Africans who came here against their will as slaves. That's this year, 400th anniversary. We have a special and unique obligation to address issues around the African American community around the history and acknowledge the history. We can say the same with so many, with the Native American community. We can talk about the Chinese Exclusion Act and how we discriminated and perpetrated injustices to other communities. So our job as a university, a public university in California, in the US is really to address many of these issues as we're also trying to serve and also engage a global community. And that happens to graduate students, happens to visiting scholars and others and they are an essential part of our campus as well. So the next one is seemingly simple but I think it's a complex question in some ways goes right to the heart of what you've been talking about. And it is, what are the, what institutional barriers do you believe exist that contribute to our chronic under-representation? Reading from the question. Okay, so on chronic under-representation there are different populations. So for example, I will say right now one of my major concerns and something that I think a lot as a leader of the UNI division is a chronic under-representation of a faculty and staff leadership. That is a certain challenge. That has to do, what I would say is around practices and hiring, visions that replicate around what we determined to be excellent or most qualified. So I just wanna stop you just for a second. So you would say hiring practices are an example of an institutional or institutionalized barrier that we currently have, the way we hire people? Yes, I'm gonna say that. So it's not that we're violating the law but we fall into certain practices that happens, that I see it in every dimension. So it's not around not going through the process but it's understanding. How are those search committees formed? Are we using a rubric to identify the most qualified candidate? Or are we using other types of connections that lead to someone rising to the top? You mean like who they know? Who they might know? Or yes, I'd say that would be an example. So I don't think that it's something that there's this idea of say for example, racism without racists. So we may all embrace not being racist but it still doesn't mean that racism is not going to exist because the very structures that are there have been leading to that type of disparate impact based on race, ethnicity, gender, what have you. So when I'm talking about, when I say that we could do better in hiring, we could be more intentional about how we design our hiring committees. What are our best, our practices around identifying a rubric that is identifying what are the specific qualifications and only, and looking at those and evaluating the candidates for those as opposed to oh it's not a good fit. And I'll say it's not just around staff, it's around faculty. Happens all the time, right? So I see that, it's this kind of self reproduction that sometimes happens. So I think from the faculty and staff, I think that we are actually taking measures and that's what makes me very excited. I think there's a real intentionality around understanding this is how hiring practices need to change and I'm not saying just around staff but also around faculty and being more intentional about making sure that we're not falling back to those comfortable practices that haven't always been equitable. When it comes to, I would say, graduate students are, I'm gonna punt on the graduate student piece, not because it's important but because it's so important that a lot of people are involved in that process. Every single department, for example, is involved in that process, which is different from undergraduate admissions. When you think about undergraduate admissions and you think about, well, we have this demographic in California and we have this demographic on campus, I personally think that our campus is actually quite diverse but it's not diverse in the way that is reflecting what that potential input is within California. And so what does that mean? That means actually if you start looking at the numbers, there are things, and I always bring this up, many of you may not know that when you look, I say number of applicants for freshman admissions, college admissions from California. Northern California UCs receive around 20,000 fewer applicants from Californians than Southern California UCs. So when you look at a UCSD, UC Santa Barbara, UCLA, compare us to UC Berkeley, UC Santa Cruz, UC Davis, the Delta, the difference is 20,000. So what does that mean, for example, in the Latinx community? It means that we are receiving 8,000 fewer applications from Latinx students than, say, UCLA. So we have very similar admissions rate but the pool looks different. We are not yielding in some of these populations in the same way we need to. Why? Because we have a different narrative than maybe UCLA might have, even though, again, that admissions bottleneck is very similar. So I think that's partly what Chancellor Chris is mandating that we do in these workgroup, which is what are really understanding, what are we doing to really understand that landscape and then be very tactical about how we're going about in achieving our goals. We're not changing admissions in terms of what has been dictated by the Academic Senate. We're not using race, we're not using gender to impact admissions. What all we're doing is we're reaching out and saying, take a look at Berkeley, that's what we need to do. And then on the other side, we need to say, this is how it would look like for you to be here and let us connect you with students and communities that you might have a connection with so you can see what it means for you to be here on this campus and that be a positive experience. And that's what we need to do as any and I, but also in the campus at large. So before we go on, I just want to note our, the campus human resources lead, Jill Magnus was just here and had to leave, but she shot me a look and I'm pretty sure I understood what that look was and that meant was to remind everybody that the Chancellor is going to be sending out a message in the next couple of weeks, parallel to the undergraduate and faculty messages about campus plans initiatives around staff diversity. Yes. Which I'm very excited about by the way. I think there's just a lot of things going on and then there'll be one following up that about graduate students. So the Chancellor is going step by step through the different constituencies. They're all important. There's a lot of exciting work happening. There's a lot of heavy lifting. Some of you all can see that. I know that change sometimes doesn't happen at the time scale that we wanted to, but we need to always be consistent so that we make sure that the change does happen. I'll say I have a daughter here at Cal now and I want this university to be as good as possible for her. And so that's, you know, I think about it through that lens as a parent now. I think about it as an alum. I know there's a lot of heavy lifting, but things have changed. So for example, when I mentioned that when I was a grad student, I didn't know any other Latinx engineering grad students. I knew other social science grad students, but not engineering grad students. Now there is a group that has a membership of around, I think it's like 40 or 50 Latinx grad students. And those are just the ones who are active in the group. So things are changing. They're not changing at the rate that I would like. I think there's not changing at the rate that most of us would like, but change is happening and we need to be consistent and persistent. So I want to drill down into one area based on a question that another question that was submitted here, and it's about faculty diversity. Yes. And again, the question that's looking for specifics. What does success look like 10 to 15 years from now in terms of faculty diversity? And number two is which or what institutions do you personally emulate in terms of faculty diversity? And I assume that means, is there an institution out there that we should maybe muddle ourselves after because they've figured out how to do this? I'll say that in my view, I'm not, I can't, I'll start with the latter. I can't say that I can name an institution that is just hitting it out of the ballpark in this space. As I mentioned around hiring, there's a lot of self-replication happens a lot in hiring. I think we've moved a long way in recent years around hiring faculty and understanding that excellence isn't just from my own personal lens, but it looks different, it can look different and trying to understand that. I think we have a lot of allies now that are really, sometimes intentions are there, but the allyship doesn't happen because it's not knowing how to go about being an ally. But I think that we are moving forward in that space. I think the work that happens in the office for faculty equity and welfare with Angie Stacey, Associate Vice Provost, is pretty phenomenal right now, it's data-driven, but it's also very practical around what are the types of practices that we need to do to transform the institution. We are here for a long time faculty, so that we are 1,500 faculty. We hire on the order of 50 faculty per year. This year, we're actually moving forward to hiring a little bit more, trying to get to around 75 to 80. But when you think about it, it's a very small share of the total. So how do you expect change? So my goal to be honest with you is not, I think it's important to have diverse faculty, but it's also important to make sure that the faculty members who are hired hold the principles of belonging, of equity inclusion as valuable parts of how they see their work to impact. Not just in the intellectual side, but also in how they serve and how they teach. So in my ideal world, yes, let's continue with this vision towards diversity and diversifying the faculty, but really let's think about what it means for us to support our faculty members to perform, to having a pedagogy that's more inclusive, to help our students to be more collaborative across differences, to have curriculum that not only speaks to one group, but speaks broadly to the rich diversity of the campus. You know, I think there are certain areas where that happens. You know, I think ethnic studies is one where that happens, but it can't be just left to certain units to carry that identity piece. We all need to find a way of how are we connecting with the future generations of change agents, of innovators, of entrepreneurs, of community activists, and it can't be just with the same old thing. It's really creating that, teaching that content that is relevant to their lives and that's part of what it means for the campus to meet them where they're at. So it's all of these other pieces. It's having bona fide processes that lead to hiring that is not biased in ways that they have been historically. So it's not just about how the faculty itself looks, but it's also about what are our practices, how are we pursuing our teaching, how are we developing curriculum, how are we exploring different areas of intellectual pursuit and have those areas be valued. So it's all of these broader things that of course helps when it's a diverse faculty, but it doesn't have to be that way because we don't, people of color don't hold it all and certainly faculty of color can't hold all of that because that is a really unreasonable burden as well. So we have about 150 faculty I'll say who are African-American, Latinx and Native American and the Native American number is extremely small. We have a new initiative that we've launched and then those searches will happen next year around to diversify what I would say Native American thought and Native American service to the Native American community. So those that combine. So and we will have other types of initiatives, cluster hires that will happen in subsequent years. So I mean, it sounds like the measures of success are to some degree numerical, some degree process, some degree policy, some degree just a feeling that people have of belonging and representation. Is that right? I say that's true, but we can't measure progress by factors that we can't measure. Progress needs to be measured by measurables so we need to find ways to measure belonging. It may not be just a survey but it could be other areas around are we closing equity gaps, right? How are those equity gaps associated with belonging? So it really is not just about the numbers but it really is making sure that if we have measures for success that for impact that those actually are measurable. So we just can't say, oh, we did a good job. We see this anecdote of X, Y and Z. It really has to be measuring success with measurables not just saying, oh, we move forward. Got it. Another question again addressing a different part of our community and the questions are amazing and the extent to which you really, I think we get a feel of our challenges but also of what this campus is made of. It goes as so. So often queer and transgender folks must choose between being stealth, not out, at work in class or explaining their existence to professors, other students and staff. Are there specific actions Cal is taking to educate all parts of community, of our community, about the unique needs and experiences of the transgender community? How can we shift the onus of educating from marginalized trans folks to cis folks who don't have to deal with transphobia on a daily basis? Oh, thank you for that question. I think that is really a truly important question. There is a body represented by faculty, staff and students that does advise the chancellor around these matters but what I would say is that action does, we need to demonstrate action in this space. Of course the Gender Equity Center is an area where that really helps our students but it's not just about students, it's about the entire community. One of the things that I'm extremely pleased about is that as we, I think everything has to start from the top. So one of the actions that is going to take is that the cabinet is going to have, I would say a guided conversation. I don't want to say training, that's not what it is. We're gonna have a guided conversation around transgender awareness. What does it mean? Why do pronouns matter? The whole issue of what the climate and experience is and that's something that we were supposed to have a little earlier but due to some unforeseen circumstances around someone not being able, someone got sick and we couldn't do it but that's something that we are rescheduling and that's something to me is very important because the first thing we need to do as leaders is acknowledge that we don't always have that cultural competency and so that is the very first thing and I counter that on a daily basis. I don't have the cultural competency to engage many, many communities and what I try to do over the last couple of years is just learn, learn to be more culturally competent but I do think that in this specific space, it is important, we are moving forward with also the implementation SB 179 which is gonna add the box X to all of our forms and applications around not just having male, female. I think that when you look at my experience survey, you'll find that we really have tried to identify to the best we can, being inclusive in how we are supporting you in identifying yourselves because I think that it's important to know who we are serving and what that experience is for individuals so I think we're slowly working in that space. I think that's part of what it means for the faculty diversity and the campus to move forward. If as faculty we don't hold it, the campus doesn't move forward and I think ultimately it's important for our leaders, also our faculty members to hold that so that the rest of the campus models and sometimes we don't do that well enough as faculty and I think that's something that I always think about a lot myself as part of that community. I think we only have time for one more question, maybe two, but you talked a little bit about different criteria, different hiring practices that might include and I think the chancellor's message included as well that the hiring practice for faculty might include statements about their accomplishments, their commitment around diversity issues. So this question, diversity statements are now becoming the norm or required for faculty across the UC for employment. What can be expected for staff in terms of producing such statements or being asked to produce such statements in terms of the hiring practice and if that's not under consideration perhaps just share your thoughts or opinion about that idea. So I am, as you all may know, HR is not under my portfolio so I'm not going to, I don't want to speak on behalf of human resources and hiring practices. Certainly I always work, I do work with Joe Magnus with Vice Chancellor Mark Fisher to whom Joe reports and working on these issues. These issues are important. I'm still, you know, I go myself. I'll be very frank with you. I just go back and forth around this. I recently filled out my own merit review not as a staff member in my role but as a faculty member in my role. And you know there's this part where faculty members can write a quote unquote contributions to diversity. And this year I decided not to do that. I decided to say where my work in that space, not related to my staff position but as a faculty member, how it connected to my service statement or my teaching statement. To make it part of, I felt this time that it's important to make it part of what is normally expected as opposed to having it as this add-on. So I'm going back and forth right now but that's something I've thought about more because what I want, I want that work in diversity inclusion to be valued in my service, to be valued in my teaching and not seen as an add-on. I don't know how that would translate into hiring practices. I do think that there's nothing wrong with expecting individuals who are here to uphold our principles of community. I think that there's nothing wrong with that and I think that what a lot of these statements are about, upholding our principles of community, agreeing to disagree. I don't know how that gets operationalized because I ain't even myself as I mentioned in my own process around faculty, my own thought around as a faculty member what it looks like. I'm still going back and forth about that but I do think it's important to be able to call out that that work is valued because that hasn't always been the case. It's always been as well, that doesn't really count towards service, that doesn't really count towards teaching. So I think that's where part of the conversation is. So unfortunately, we have to wrap up. I have a feeling we could go on for quite a while. I just note we've been doing this for a year and a half and never have we received this amount of questions. I've tried to pull questions to reflect the various communities and populations that are interested. I'm gonna ask Oscar if you're office, if we could work together and perhaps provide online questions, answers to the questions that... Love to do that. They weren't answered. Where would people see those questions, LaDonne? Perfect. About the Conversations website. We'll put on the Campus Conversations website. Give us a couple of weeks for that but you clearly sit in a really hot seat with, if you'll pardon the expression, a really diverse range of issues that you have to deal with. So I just, I really wanna thank you on behalf of everyone for exceptional grace and generosity and your answers to it. Do you wanna say anything? Thank you. Yeah, I just wanna say, I just wanna say, Dan, thank you very much. I've had, I've really enjoyed getting to know you over the last two years, for better or for worse. I need to put that. But also, so thank you very much, Dan. He provides actually a lot of important guidance for me when I, just to wrap my mind around this. But I also like to thank you. It is my privilege to serve you in this role. It's not my right and I know that it's an opportunity that I don't take for granted and I do wanna do the best I can in my ability to serve you in seeing that this is your campus and this is where you wanna be and that you feel that you belong and that you have access and support to be successful. So, thank you so much. Super. Super.