 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today we are talking about camco with our good friend Joe Luoma. Joe, how are you man? I'm doing great Bart. How are you doing? Good. Good. This is we this is really cool We met at the Chicago drum show and and camco is one of those companies that Kind of has like a mystique about them like there's a little bit of mystery and there's the George way stuff and And I know Ron DeNette is kind of involved with the new George way stuff. It's just it's honestly It's a big mystery to me. So I'm really excited to have you here to to clarify some stuff Okay, let's see if I can do that. Sure exactly. I'll let you just take it away and Why don't you start at the beginning of the history of camco? Okay? This is a podcast, right? This is a podcast. Let me get in my pod and let's let's hit it get in your pod and we're off. We're off to space Out off to the podcast. Okay First of all, let me say on camco. There's an excellent book out now called the Leedy way It is by Rob Cook and this is a biography of George way and it's also the history of the Leedy drum company But Rob Cook does a great job on books He's also got an incredible grudge book and other books out So and anybody listening, please go and buy these books and support this guy anybody who writes a book like this It's not making it's not in it for the money So so all the support we can and that would be great So that will that covers a lot of stuff about George way and you cannot talk about camco without talking about George way because they were basically his drums and George started out with 1557 and first of all, he just started selling snare drums and He had two lines. I think what were there? They both have the round turret lugs. This is way before DW and one line was called aristocrat and the other was Spartan and Just the snare drums the aristocrat were the separate lugged drums top and bottom and the Spartan were the center lug But both drums were those round turret lugs And there's the earlier ones. This was let's say. Oh, yeah, they were out of Elkhart Indiana in the first drums very thin three-ply shells and Then they went to a four-ply shell and then later on in 57 they added bass drums and tom-toms and But funny in the in their catalogs. They only showed three-piece sets and Back then a 12 inch tom was on a 22 inch bass drum that seemed to be normal for them instead of a 13 tom So you'll find these old George way sets of a 22 bass 16 floor tom But they'll have a 12 inch tom a lot of times to 12 on top and usually the matching standard And I've got a beautiful red sparkle kitten that configuration. Nice Yeah, and then Let's see what then they had their endorsers. I know this is kind of funny a Let's see. Oh, I have a catalog right here on the back. It has this would be the early George way catalog that has on the old Anita O'Day's drummer His name is John pool and he has a Roger's swivemmatic Tom mount Holding his Tom Tom on this thing. You'll see Robert's Roger's swivemmatic mounts on On on quite a number of camco drum sets Interesting, and we're not sure if the factory would put them on if they put them on afterwards But Eddie night at the night school of music and camco endorser always put a roger's swivemmatic Swivemmatic mount to hold the Tom's up, which is great. Yeah, great. Yeah, let me let me ask you real quick though So starting out was this George way drums or was this camco drums because I know there was the George way drum company They were George wage geo w a geo was a geo period w a drums and Wasn't yeah, they went on until oh like I know of the 1961 catalog These were still on George way drums now. Okay, they had They added a little snare off four and a half by 14 snare to my casino aristocrat snare drum That's a highly collectible drum And it's funny for their copy underneath. He said the neatest and best-looking narrow drum ever made So, you know, why would you look any further? And then they also added that little 14 by 20 bass drum and the little 14 by 14 four tom and and then I in 61 also that's where the The new tuxedo models replace the Spartan models and the tuxedo model had something called the tuxedo lug, which is not the round turret lug, but a Kind of a cigar shaped lug and their endorsers actually endorser at that time with Sonny and Sonny Greer big one and Eddie Knight Also another endorser in that and after that George way lost the company to John Rashon of the camco Camco, they were they have they manufactured hardware and screws and all kinds of things and But John Rashon the owner of camco took for over 51% ownership and kind of and George way left the company And then that's when they became camco and I had that happen. Yeah 62 1962 I believe not 61 62 I think and Then John Rashon moved the company to Oakland, Illinois They made a few changes. They offered a 18 inch bass drum They offered a parallel strainer snare drum that was at that time called a 701 Super and they had and and if you actually see that catalog 62 or 63 catalog they have what I consider the holy grail I don't know if they ever made it even it is a three and a half by 14 jazz model snare drum and it has Miniature aristocrat the round lugs you could get this in wood or metal now these Shallow shell drum show up, but they have the full-size lug on them. I've never seen one with that miniature lug And although it might not have worked. Well anyway because the rods would go directly into each other So there's not much room, you know for that before those rods would start hitting each other They're not staggered. So maybe it was just a prototype or something like that that they just Tried out and threw on the catalog. That could be yeah, I could have made it in the catalog and then in production They realized that oops this might not work So cool and then also their number one endorser came on board for a few years That's Nick Saroli from the Tijuana brass they hit it big and Nick Saroli used a camp go a little 20-inch base 12 and 14 toms and a matching snare in burgundy sparkle and Camp go fortunately for me or and people who like those sizes that 20 with the 12 14 and matching snare camp go Made a lot of those sets. That was a big set for them And that's the size I play so that's why that's pretty happy about that Wow now in this time So we're in the 60s. They were primarily one thing. I've kind of seen is they weren't exactly Going after the rock market as much as the jazz kind of players, right? Because a lot of the guys were using Ludwig and stuff in the rock world. They seem to be more like jazz drums right Although they did have Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys as an endorser. Yeah, that's cool and Two gigantic drummers of the area play of that era played camco drums One was Doug Doug Clifford of Creedence Clearwater revival. I mean listen to the drums on those recordings Yeah, and the other is the great Jim Gordon. I mean who played with everybody, you know Derrick and the Domino's Eric Clapton traffic George Harrison John Lennon Jackson Brown got Frank Zappa. Oh, Carly Simon. Yeah Listen to the drums on your soul vein. Those are camco Oakland. That's awesome. And so to the two big I think Doug Clifford may have endorsed them, but he was never featured in the catalog I don't Jim Jim Gordon never did endorse them, but there's two big rock players who used Oakland Camco drums cool and they were a studio drum to number of studios would use the sets because they record well Okay, so they they kind of permeated into the into culture without You know being on the Ed Sullivan show or whatever, but they were still heard all over due to these studios Right, right Yeah, that's Yeah, and they seem for the studio can't go over the Oakland drums Jasper Shells the Jasper Shell company to send them a crutch round badge and the early Rogers Eagle batch drums were a Jasper shell But the Jasper shell it seems those drums for some reason I think close miking the drums close Mike well And that's just my guess But they that's I know even my camco Oakland's when I bring them in the studio We never have a problem getting the sound and it's always instantly and You know where in fact the engineer will sometimes say wow that was painless Just to back up to clarify so camco When the so camco was an existing company you said making screws and stuff was that a drum company? Were they literally making like hardware for? Hardwares sake like screws and nuts and bolts like what's the story with you know camco before? They became camco that we know well I think they were about camco screw company And I think they made nuts and bolts and they made stands snare stands symbol stands they made they got into the hardware business drum hardware and Where John Roshan I guess just wanted eventually to you know to start making drums too and So that's how they ended up with it and Got it Yeah, and also in that era I should say they went from a four-ply shell to a six-ply shell. There's still Jasper shells Shell company making them, but they went to six plies in mid in the mid 60s and Also in the mid 60s. They did some changes. They finally put flared out floor tom legs and they came up with six-sided spur bracket and And But anyway Yeah, and then they went into Yeah, they've been later on in the 60s. They added the 18 and 20 inch floor tom's they came up with some lacquer finishes one of it like ebony walnut What they have clear maple moss green stain and Nick sorolli was still their main endorser He was the big guy in the 60s And then they went let's see they ended up custom amplifier company bought them and 1971 to 73 They moved to Chinook, Kansas. Well the custom wasn't Chinook anyway. I don't know how many drums that built in Chinook Quality went down a little bit. They weren't as fussy. It's still good drums. Nice Jasper shell drums, but I've had sets from this era the Chinook era Where the top bearing at the bearing edge on the top tom was was either sharper or flatter than the floor tom different bearing edge The reinforcing rings are kind of crushed in Jasper would have done that, but I think just well, maybe they did it But they weren't as fussy about them But there were still good sounding drums that Jim Gordon had a Chinook kit and nobody complained about the sound of that In fact that one I see just sold on eBay is that's a 22 base 12 13 16 I think I came to about four grand for those drums because they were Jim Gordon's yeah, cool And he only had two camco sets the other was an Oakland that he recorded a lot with and I don't know who has that but So it's kind of fun to see that Famous camco set out there. Oh and another famous set that was funny Last winter we were in Phoenix at the incredible place called the MIM the musical instrument museum Incredible museum. In fact, you can spend two days there It's new instruments from all over the world, but they had a there one exhibit was the birth of the electric guitar and All these guitars famous guitars George Harrison Eric Clapton all these famous guitars and Amplifiers and there's only one drum set in the middle and that belonged to Doug Clifford There was kids camco 22 base 13 and 16 walnut Oakland set And it looked like it it looked I had some use Sure playing with Creed and saw that was well used but what a famous kid. Yeah Wow, I've heard of that museum and seen videos of Different exhibits and stuff and it looks awesome. So it's it's cool to know there's a camco set there Yeah, it is awesome that museum what we were amazed like I said, you could spend two days there and Yeah, just we had a blast. We just had a blast there. So next time what was definitely the whole this spend the whole day Yeah, now let me ask you to so when you're talking about the different eras and we're obviously not done with the company yet But so it seems like a lot of the Oakland is Pretty sought-after right like that seems to be like an era that people really really like which would be the kind of early 60s That's post-Elkhart when it actually got bought and became camco Is that kind of the most desired iteration of camco drums? Yeah for the vintage camco sound in the six Oakland went all through in up from probably about 62 to What 68 or 62 into into? Even yeah, even the chenute is still the same sound, but that is The Oakland is the more collectors seem to go for the Oakland although they did change quite a bit when they went to Los Angeles and that would be What in 1973 because they moved from chenute, Kansas and The the company moved to Los Angeles and they started using killer shells a different company They had a whole different type of shell undersized The bearing edge very unique a lot of timpani action the head would just float on the drum As you go up the side of the shell It would the edge would start tapering toward the center and then come so the edge was more toward the inner inner plies the drum than than anybody else and Those drums are nice drums. Some people might say they're a more modern sounding drum, but they have a They're loud. They got a big boom to them and I've got LA kits and you know, sometimes I like them too But I prefer the Oakland Oakland's I can if you want to they have a wide tuning range You want to crank them up? They'll go really high. They'll go really they'll do anything you want But the LA's are nice drums beautiful finishes and yeah, just beautiful. They had like four different stains four lacquer finishes and four covered finishes and Almost all the lacquer and cover were solid colors. They only offered a white marine pearl. That was the only pearl Otherwise, it was like a solid red solid blue solid black. They had they had Alice Cooper blue and Alice Cooper white That's funny. Why did they know Alice Cooper was a drummer? I mean, was there a reason behind that like doing that Alice Cooper series? Yeah Ella his drummer used them, you know, he you I think he used the Alice Cooper white I don't I suppose he used both of them. Yeah Yeah, so anyway, but they triggered Alice Cooper was more Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's kind of funny now is a is custom still the owner when we get into the Los Angeles period they still own it or no No Beckman music bought it They let's see. Yeah, and yeah, they became owner. So as a whole just totally changed hands custom The owner of custom had his hands and a lot of different things boats and and he just wanted out and so they ended up in Los Angeles and Beef and then that went till about 1977 and Don Lombardi with a drum workshop Took it. Oh, he took over Actually that company was split up between Hoshino Tama and and Don and Don ended up with all the hardware and Hoshino ended up with the name and Hoshino went on to make it the last version of Camco drums USA made Camco drums. Those were made. There was they were out of Ben Salem, Ben Salem, Pennsylvania and Those shells were made in the US and they're either by Jasper or killer. I Nobody knows yet and they're beautiful drums They have they're just precision they even go on about the precision bearing edges and their catalog How important it is for them of finishes are just phenomenal They had a renaissance series that had in hand in lays in it and they're beautiful drums But unfortunately after that Camco used the that name or Tama used the camco name to put out an entry level set And a lot of people associate those were kind of common and they associate the Hoshino name with Those entry the Hoshino camco with those entry level sets really so and these sets this was the Hoshino USA made camco were from 1978 to 1980 and There were six ply shells and these shells did not have reinforcing rings The only camco drums that did not have Reinforcing rings and they had their they had one main endorser and that was Elvin Jones. Wow. It's a good one In fact, yep, Steve Maxwell had or has Elvin Jones I don't know if he still has it or not, but if he doesn't it would be on his Maxwell drums on the website at least pictures of it and And that was the end. In fact, I did a 19 2015 at the Chicago drum show with Jim Cena I did a video and we called it the four seasons of camco So we I have a set a George way set a camco Oakland a camco LA and a Camco Hoshino said all four of them set up and we go over all four of them and So if you go online, you could easily dial that up and you can get an idea what? Yeah, yeah, they look like that's great. And now so this period of like when DW sort of begins and Tom is involved or Hoshino then The five thousand pedal you want to talk a little bit about that because I know this sort of has It's a part of history. I mean, it's one of the most famous pedals in history And that was originally a camco pedal, correct Originally, it was a Martin Fleetfoot and I believe they were made Minneapolis, Minnesota, and I'm in St. Paul Actually, I'm in frostbite falls, Minnesota But there it's a Minnesota pedal and camco bought the rights to that pedal and also that's the same basically the same pedals the grudge floating action and So that came from the Martin Fleetfoot turned into the camco and the floating grudge floating action pedal And then from there is DW ended up with all the hardware and They that pedal is still similar to the original. I think the upright piece is I don't know I haven't seen the new the new ones, so they're getting so heavy-duty. Maybe yeah, maybe they beef that up too. Yeah But phenomenal pedal, you know get an old camco pedal and you know, oh, they added the chain to it Yeah, that's that was the ones were strap drive. Okay, and that was like a sort of a Kind of a hack that was going on a little bit where people were doing that and converting them and then it obviously caught on And then there's also a Tama Camco pedal that looks similar to it, right that would be in the same Vane because they had the the name Okay, right. Yeah. Yeah, their pedal is in fact if you look and even in their their pedal in the it's identical Except it has the chain drive, but it's identical to the original camco pedal the Fushino camco pedal so Thomas started putting that out immediately. Yeah They had beef all the other stands beefed up stands, you know like Tom. I did they had stands You could hold your car up with those Yeah Heavy heavy-duty, but the pedal was still that little lightweight camco just nice Basic lightweight little pedal works great. Yeah, it does and it's I mean so in that period of hardware and pedals and stuff Why did it resonate so much with people? Was it just because of the ease and the smoothness of it? I mean, why is it why did it become such a iconic pedal because it works so well? I mean, yeah And it's like unlike a speed King. You could adjust it to a speed King pedal works great If you like that angle, you know, it's not adjustable Unless you would bend the rod you're a beater rod That's the only way you could adjust that angle of the pedal of how far back it went But just a nice simple little Lightweight pedal that worked great. So I'd still play one today. No problem. That's great You know something's good when it lasts that long. Yeah. Yeah, they that's one of those things They designed right just like if you go back the Ludwig Supra fauna 400 snare drum Yeah, I mean it was designed right. It was done right. Yeah, it was done, right? There's if you can't make that drum sound good, it's you Oh, that's why it doesn't So another thing that I think is really worth talking about in a little more detail is the George way turret lugs or the round lugs, which like you said Everyone thinks of DW like I would think most Drummers today who aren't really aware of the camco history who are listening to this and learning about this Probably don't know the history behind that and that that has been around for a very long time Before DW existed. So I mean, that's just a pretty pretty cool history in itself, right? the Lug goes back to 1957 when George way designed it and it's I'm still amazed when I I I I play in the Minneapolis, St. Paul area. I was never a road drummer I I just I was able to I made a living for many years just playing in this area, fortunately and I was always surprised when people saw my camco sets and the ones who knew it was a camco set instead of a DW and You know, but they'd see the badge that little cloud that maybe that gave it away It doesn't have that round DW badge on it, but I know my first camco set when I saw it this way before DW I was in the 70s. I was in the music store It was a used set and it looked kind of cartoonish with those big round lugs Yeah, it reminded me of like a mine floating in the water. Yeah, you know Chips are trying to avoid or something. They got this big round lugs on it. So I bought it. This price was right I bought this was a old George Way camper camco from with George Way shells the old four-ply shells I we brought it into the studio and we put it they had a Yamaha recording custom set And I said, let's put these up and we put them up and everybody was pretty amazed at how good they sound now I'm not gonna say they sound better than a recording custom. They sound different. You know, everybody has their idea of what good is You know recording custom drums are, you know, nice sounding drums But I like I just like the camco. Oh, you know, these I did this is the sound I like when I heard them I don't I collect everything I collect Ludwig Rogers flingerland and but I play camco That's the only thing I play Gretch round badge love those drums not crazy about the tall hoops Because if I use a superfond or a different snare drum even an old 20s Ludwig snare drum the hoops are lower and my Tom hoops men are higher and I you know It's like I end up I'd rather have the Tom hoops the same height or even lower than the snare drum And an eight lug 12 inch drum is hard to get another hoop on my camco drums. I switched the hoops I don't use those tall roll over hoops because they stick up too high I used the era they had where the brass hoop regular triple flange brass hoop That was from a short era before they went to a cheap cheaper hoop from overseas Cool. Now, there's no yeah, there's no like sonic difference in using these round lugs It's just kind of a George way being innovative and being different sort of thing, right? Well, I'd say that you'd have to physically you'd look at the drum You'd say that's a lot of hardware mounted on that shell. Sure And I know the 12 inch drum I have to put on a rims mount if you mount that directly I fly mounted on the base drum. It seems to deaden the deaden drum is deadened But almost every drum sounds better on a rims mount, but especially camco one of the minuses is their heavy drums Especially the base drum because they've got these big chrome this big washers lifting the lugs higher so they'll Go over their counter hoop the head Head so so they'll fit on to the The claws so that they don't angle in you know, they have to be they have to pull the lugs out father And if you take all those washers in your hand, they're heavy So they're heavy drums Another the lugs aren't real strong it's back the old George waylugs a lot of times will be they'll be Volcanoed or blown out cracked out They want to pull out especially the old days with calfskin heads people would tighten them and not loosen them forget about it And when the calfskin wants to go back, it's powerful Yeah, and it would just blow them lugs right out. So they had weak lugs their throw-offs Now we're known to break. There's a little a little partner that's a weak weak point and You know their their tom rollers later weren't the best, but you know, so they had they had their minuses but their pluses Jasper shells with nice bearing edges wide tuning range and Microphones just love them drums. I just the way they sound so but back to the lugs I would I kind of like that new look that drum workshop makes that on their performance here series It's a lot. It's about two-thirds the size. Yeah, I've seen that it's cool It's just smaller and that yeah, and it's less mass on the shell lighter weight cheaper to make You know, I if I I prefer that look if I could get it, but You know, they are what they you know, this is what you get on a camco drum Yeah, they're they're very iconic and and so now I'm actually working on getting them on the show and I met The Chicago drum show but so Ron Danette of the net class of drums He owns Basically all of the George way trademark and a lot of his patents and stuff like that. So I Just think that's good to note and also people can check out. I forget the episode number I think it was episode six or seven. I had Rob cook on the show talking about Leedy and the Leedy way book so Joe was talking about that earlier. You can refer back to that and Hear a little bit more about George way there But so question for you if I were to want to get into collecting camcos What is my best way to do that? Like how much money do you typically need to buy a nice decent drum set that doesn't need a Ton of work. Is this like a Craigslist kind of lucky find thing or are they a little bit harder to come across? Yeah camco drums are rare in the early days. I ended up with a lot of camco drum sets because Well, first of all, let's go back John Aldridge opened up the floodgates for collectors with his not-so-modern drummer Stuttered out as a pamphlet and all of a sudden he created a community of us people I thought I was I thought there were only a few people in the US with the same disease that I had Which is vintage drum thing and all of a sudden I get his magazine with all this list of people who have them You know we're our collectors and my my phone bill went through the roof That's back when you had to pay for long distance phone calls but everybody's got and This is way before eBay or Craigslist or any of that stuff and it was just you know talking on the phone and So back then everybody I I like camco drums I just loved the way they sounded and people would have a camco set and they'd call me and I'd have instant just to sell it to me and I'd ask them. Have you played and they said you they'd usually say No, I play Rogers or I play Ludwig. I play you know I play Gretz round batch. I don't play camcos you do you know and they did most of people didn't even try him they just would launch him and you know, I'd end up so I ended up with a lot of sets and And then I had a business I was selling buying and selling, you know Of course, I collect a lot of different things too, you know, just it's all over the map of what I collect But I play camco drums I had a business and all of a sudden my business took off we got backordered on a product that I made and All of a sudden all these camco sets and everything else is coming and it's just getting piled up because I can't I don't have time to get it out You know, yeah, and so I ended up with a lot of drums and I've sold a lot of camco sets In fact, I see a lot of my camco sets out there Your babies either on eBay or yeah, in fact, I just saw one this morning Steve Maxwell has a video comparing The new drum workshop Santa Monica series Which they tried to duplicate a camco and he compares it to one of my old sets that I played a lot of gigs on it's an old charcoal moray, which a moray is of the satin finish samples word for satin flame and 20 inch base 1214 with the matching snare and he compares that to a the new DW and The only thing on my kit that kit originally they came with straight legs Straight legs will show on the floor Tom. They will shut it off. They will stop it from resonating. So you want the flared legs And also like I said with the 12 inch top Tom It's a good idea to put it on a rims mount or something isolated a little bit but but you get a good idea what camco is sound like it's a nice recording of both drums and But oh the DW has a beautiful finish. Oh, man. I love that. I love the colors they do But but anyway, you'll get an idea of what a camco drum sounds like. There's a good, you know on Steve Maxwell's site and Yeah, but it's funny. There's I like I see my old sets all the time. I see my was it as How long ago 2012 or I don't know I had two little Camco 18 inch kits red. They were both red sparkle one was an aristocrat round like it and the other was the tuxedo cigar-shaped log kit both 18 12-14 Tom's matching snares both of them side by side and both of those left me and I they pop up from time to time online and or on the forums drum forums, yeah, and So it's kind of funny to see my see my old my my kids all over the place Yeah, well it makes me think because camco was only around for 17 years or whatever it is They couldn't have produced. It's not like uh Ludwig or even like yamaha or these companies that have been around forever Do you know roughly how many kits were actually produced in the like that are actually out there in the world? No, I I don't nobody knows that I was uh speaking with eddy knight earlier today eddy knight big camco endorser educator and Has the eddy knight school of music he sold a lot of camco drum sets and he put it with stamp eddy knight school of music in his kits He also put swivelmatic rogers mounts on them and a cowbell holder on every kit and But I asked him that question. He had no idea now. He didn't even know how many sets he sold But they did not sell a lot obviously because there are right now if you look online I don't think you'll see a complete set by complete. I mean with a snare drum matching snare That's how they usually came with a matching snare They offered metal snare drums, but the matching's uh, and I'm I'm talking about oakland era now Yeah, and uh because oakland era is just in the You know basically in the 60s well in 62 to 71 Well, there's a great uh facebook group that a lot of people are on and you can I mean obviously I don't own a camco set, but it's cool to go on there and see People share their sets and it's a really cool community. Um And also joe while I have you So you you kind of mentioned it before you have an association or you brought a product to market That's not camco, but is the hot rods. What's the story with that? I mean, I know we we're kind of running out of time here, but what's the what what happened there? hot rods Well, they kind of uh the unplugged craze You know, uh, in fact when I was talking about I had a business That all of a sudden we were backward or we were actually backwarded for three years Uh, the making I was backwarded for three years making hot rods drumsticks because of the unplugged craze Steve Ferroni used them On eric clapton's unplugged album and that year was in 95. I think I got that right Uh, that became the album of the year and all of a sudden It opened the floodgates on unplugged gigs and Almost every drummer used hot rods on their unplugged gig Oh, and then Dave Grohl of nirvana used them And that meant okay kids now you can use them. Yeah, now they're cool Yeah, now even even the youngsters can use them and uh, so it kind of uh, it just it opened everything up and like we were And uh, so that's what kind of made them famous Uh, they were checking along pretty good back then You know before that but and so I continued making the hot rods until end of 2012 and uh, I had eight employees and um, A younger fellow right in town here took it over and all employees are still there and they all the hot rods are made in the Minneapolis area And now they go, uh, they were originally went out to houston to pro mark now They go to didario who bought pro mark. So they ship out to new york city. Wow. Okay. So you guys manufacture them Or now they manufacture them and then they get labeled as pro mark or didario now and um Pro mark. Yeah, that's still problem. Didario owns pro mark. Yes. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, they bought promo When they bought it things were things changed and and I had a buyer it would seem like a good time to move on Yeah, I well I had a bird in the hand that way. That's what it was It's not easy selling a uh, you know, musical instrument manufacturing business, you know, especially when you want The employees to stay with it and that was part of the deal, you know, he Yeah, so Wasn't written in the deal, but I knew he would keep that and that was very important You have to when you start a business you realize after a while Employees rely on it. You know people's lives don't think about in the beginning But all of a sudden you you become responsible. Yeah. Yeah, but you must feel good kind of being um Being the guy where I think hot rods gets a a name for you know, such a classic Thing that you think dave grohl. I mean honestly in my i'm 29. I think dave grohl on the unplugged So that's cool. It's a good little extra bit of bit of history What's funny is dave grohl has to be the softest Player of hot rods. I've ever seen really he's barely hitting the drums Actually, there was a thing in rolling stone. It was called the smoking section where dave grohl talks about it and uh, that There the session and he said uh kurt was basically he was going to walk out because kurt kept telling him to play quieter and quieter And he couldn't and finally the producer came out with a set of pro mark hot rods. It was kind of corny the way it's And uh, and dave used them and he said kurt's eyes lit up and then he goes on to say hot rods Save that gig. Oh my god, and i'm thinking well, where's my grammy? Yeah, where's your grammy? But anyway, so uh, but no he used them and that was a big deal Yeah, it was a big one dave used them and um, but a lot of people feel kind of a lot of people the first endorsers were bill bruford who was a big fan of uh, billy cobham and uh, carl palmer when we went with uh when i went with pro mark And uh, then from there a lot of people ringo used them and uh Yeah, i don't know it's endless the people you have to call it's just endless the people who use them so Yeah, so now everybody what i think it really did was it opened up that whole field before people were making drums You know that whole field of what you hit the drums with Now it's like mind-boggling what they're making what they're making what you can hit a drum with and it's really Open you know just really opened it up. Yeah, you know drummers have all these different utensils to work with We live in a very cool era Which it's kind of always been that way of innovative things Coming out with drums. It's kind of in the the um, it's the george way You know to have these uh These new things popping up and inventions and all that stuff and some of them go away Some of them stay and the really good ones stick around forever. Right, right? Yeah, well if you want to think of it multi rod type drumsticks, they'd probably go back hundreds of years Well, I did an episode about the history of drumsticks and uh, we were talking about how I think There was a Mozart piece that called for what is it right root? Yep, exactly and um And that kind of was mind-blowing to me because I was thinking I was going to say oh joe luoma and hot rods and uh And then he was like well, they go back to uh to moats art's time. So What's old is new? Yeah, yeah, cool. But now they're everywhere. Yeah, they're everywhere. No, well joe Where can uh, where can people find you? I mean if they want to get in touch and maybe see if you're selling any camco sets or get some advice As far as finding camco drums, uh, I generally bring a setter to to chicago. I sold a set last year I actually steve my steve maxville about that picked up that charcoal moray set for me last year Uh, the chicago drum show there's usually a couple sets there for sale Online of course everybody it's ebay or or reverb, you know, and uh, but camcos are hard to find. They just didn't make many drums And uh, one thing great about it is The price stays consistent. They're never gonna. I don't think they're ever going to go down in value So it's a good investment right right like kind of like gretch round badge 18 inch kits. Yeah, you know, there are always but there's a lot of those There's quite a few 18 inch round baskets camco sets. Like I said, if you go on ebay right now I don't that there was a there was a maple set on there Yeah, pretty a lot double based on maple set. I think that one just went so once more they show up They're pricey, but it's just it's a supply and demand. Yeah You know, I I paid more for some of I most of the kid I own quite a few kits and they're mint Almost mint condition now. Yeah, and I've paid I've always paid the most and this goes way back to before ebay and Where we had to deal by phone and you had to ask what condition it is and somebody would say What's a six out of a 10? I have no idea what that means Is it mint condition excellent mint? Is there anything wrong with it? No, nothing at all zero no square Okay, I thought I wanted and I would pay more just because there were no problems when I would get it It's like, okay. There's no extra holes. No scratches. It's a mint. No rust no pitting It's mint And so and I always knew that mint kits people will pay more for mint eventually You know, it's just people drum kits take a lot of room If you have two dozen drum kits, you've got to take a lot of space two dozen guitars Not so not so much. No. Yeah. Yeah. So drummers are a lot fussier about their stuff guitar collectors say you drummers are so fussy I said, yeah, yeah, but put two dozen put two dozen drum sets in your closet. Yeah, really see why yeah And each one is $2,000 or something. I mean you want to be yeah, you want to be right? Well, the guitars you just move the decimal point over one Yeah, really because they don't flinch 30,000. Okay. Okay. Sure. Here you go. That's funny. Yeah Awesome. Well, Joe, I Appreciate you being on the show and telling us about camco because honestly, like I said, it's this company that kind of has like Like a mystique about it. Like there's there's just not everyone knows about it. Everyone knows dw everyone knows tomah People a lot of people know george way, but uh, I'd say george way and and camco and it's just a cool kind of Part of history that that is not talked about a lot. So I appreciate you being here Well, I appreciate you having me bart. Yeah, awesome. It's been fun. Absolutely. And I will definitely see you at the next chicago drum show Which is the 30th anniversary and joe was saying before uh to me that he has been to every single one Except the first one and um, there's no plan on stopping Maybe the second one too. I'm i'm i'm forgetting. Maybe I've only been to Next next 30. Maybe I've only been to 27 instead of 28. Uh, that's still pretty good. I have to go back and see That's a lot of them. That's a lot of the 30 year anniversary next year rob cook puts on this show It's phenomenal for anybody who has not seen it. There's people from all over the world there the clinics all all everybody's Phenomenal at the show and the everything you'll and next year is going to be the big one. Oh, yeah 30 year anniversary I'm going to bring a really I'm going to bring a real special billy gladstone snare drum the show Cool, um, among other things. So um, uh, we're we're going all in so anybody who hears this get your tickets Yeah, get your tickets for the chicago show Next may it's in may so it may cool. It'll be it's a lot of fun. Can't wait a lot of fun You'll be there bark, right? Yeah, I'll be there and we'll be hanging out and talking I got a cool picture of might carato and mark cooper sitting at your booth Giving a thumbs up with the drum history sticker. So that's that's pretty neat Well, they're sitting in my tall my nice uh my nice tall Directors chair your director's chairs. Yeah. All right, joe. I'll let you go man. Thanks for being on the show and uh, I'll see you in may Okay, we'll see you in may bark. Thank you. All right. Bye joe. Okay. Bye. Bye If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning This is a gwin sound podcast