 Welcome to Shrink Rap Hawaii. My name is Steven Phillip Katz. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist here in Honolulu and my guest today is Marissa Miley Katz. And as her name implies, Marissa grew up in Hawaii attending Enchanted Lake Elementary School in Kailua and the Honolulu Waldorf School where she learned to incorporate all of the arts into every part of her life. She was nurtured by a mother who is a professional musician, librarian and teacher and a father who is an actor and psychotherapist. It gives me a great joy to welcome Marissa to Shrink Rap Hawaii today. Welcome aboard Marissa. Thank you for having me. So what do you do over there in Medford, Massachusetts near Boston? Well I'm a music therapist. I am also working using psychotherapy and I work with individuals anywhere from five years old to five years old and up. So I'm fascinated by music therapy because I'm told that access is different parts of the brain and does things that regular talk therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy or psychoanalysts can't do. How does that happen? It's a good question. I think the easiest way to explain it is probably just that music therapy, you're using music as the tool which is kind of a sneaky way of getting people to relax while at the same time be able to express themselves because we're using a very analytical part of our mind when we're trying to form words and sentences but when we can use music we can relax because that's something that we're almost born being able to enjoy and move to and we hear our mother's voice as music and so it's much more natural, easy to use various parts of the brain. Yeah it seems like everywhere around the world mothers, fathers sing to their babies. Yeah I would say it's a universal language. So when we've been through some sort of a crisis or trauma, music must be another way in? It definitely is. There's parts of the brain that we can't access when we go through a trauma and so sometimes and so music being actually in every part of our brain they've been able to find parts where our brain is being stimulated all over when we're listening to music or when we're using music so that if there's any part of the brain that's kind of damaged we can use or damage from trauma damaged from an accident we can use music as a means towards getting to creating more brain cells and more pathways. Well so it's just not it's not like eyesight or hearing where it's localized to one spot it's everywhere. It's everywhere including when we have patients that have Alzheimer's for example where there's huge parts of the brain where there's deterioration the kind of the last part of the brain to go is I'm forgetting the name now but it's the back of the brain and basically it's the part where you have emotional memory and music for some reason. So we have this ability to experience emotional memory while also accessing it through music. So a lot of people have found through research and also documentaries now showing that you can use music with Alzheimer's patients to have quality better quality of life and have them feel like there is a real person inside of there inside them. Have you ever had work where you got to use that? I did I got to use it in hospice in my first year internship. Tell me a little bit about that hospice experience and music. Sure um so I worked at different nursing facilities and I had a lot of different patients probably 20-25 patients one of the ones that sticks out in my mind there was a patient who she was pretty much bed bound she didn't want to get out of bed ever um she had probably had a lot of trauma in her life she had been homeless a lot of her life I think she had had drug abuse in her life um so she had with people who would sometimes call it's not a very medical term but word salad where she would use a lot of words that strung together that didn't random words right but when you use music therapy with her she could get into it she she could understand recognize the melody she could sing with you to the melody and eventually she could start to actually sing words from the actual song so being able to string phrases together that made sense was pretty awesome when she was coming from total isolation not even wanting to interact with people being really just anxious and angry most of the day um and people not really knowing how to meet her needs and total transformation where she was getting up out of bed and she was going into the congregating with people in the common spaces you saw that happen that's what people were reporting to me when I would when I was continuing to see her yeah that's amazing so it's not just when she's singing it right carry over to the rest of her life absolutely yeah that is pretty it was pretty astounding since I was just a first year student not really knowing exactly what I was doing with music therapy and feeling like wow okay how would you know where to start um I think I just was trained from the people who were telling me about what they were doing in music therapy um other students and other professors saying you know what really works for this population is songs that they probably would have recognized from when they were younger um so sort of yeah accessing that emotional memory yeah so when I get that's funny I just thought when I get to be 64 been there done that I would probably respond to when I'm 64 by the Beatles right because that was the music when I was a teenager absolutely and it's challenging sometimes especially with cultural differences but they say even if you get music that they've never heard before in their life as long as it's performed in a way that you know it just it accesses emotion so it doesn't it doesn't it matters but it doesn't it doesn't disqualify it if it isn't music they haven't they haven't heard before so I wonder when you say that it's the same part of the brain which stores music and emotional memory that's why like lovers have their song right and 50 years later when you hear a certain song you'll remember who you were with when you I mean you're not old enough to know that but for you maybe 10 years right you'll remember the song that you heard with a certain person yeah yeah that is and and I you know and I still have you know jingles in my head from when I was eight years old right yeah yeah I mean I can't remember somebody's name who I met yesterday but I remember jingles right right we have a different way of storing lyrics in our mind too than you know random strings of words because we have so many other markers for remembering like there's a tone there's a rhythm you know there's so many different qualities that make it so that we can be jolted back into remembering a full song you know well yeah what's going to be your song when you're oh probably uh call me out call me out yeah well my Paul Simon yep that's cool yeah so tell me another story I like that okay yeah um let's see so I have a client right now who's six years old um first came to me with well-fledged OCD kind of symptoms you know the counting and the needing to um do certain rituals in order to feel clean enough to get dressed and to leave the house and um it was causing him to start to lose days at school because he was had so much anxiety about losing leaving the house and this went from pretty much no symptoms to full-fledged these these kind of symptoms so it was very out of a very short time right and according to the parents very out of the blue there was no real sort of signs for why this would happen except for maybe some history in the family of similar kind of behaviors but not at this extreme so they're thinking maybe it was just organic um yeah they're like well he's he's in first grade now he does really well in school and he like every part of his life is pretty much doing really really well and just for some reason all all these symptoms started coming up and um you know the best explanation I could give them is like oh maybe there's a genetic factor but also you know it's really stressful being a first grader these days um so maybe that had something to do with it just the expectation to you know pass tests at first grade and to um study spelling words and things like that that we didn't have to do back when we were in first grade yet necessarily at least not to that level um so anyway when I started working with him I to be honest I felt quite um humbled because I I hadn't really worked with any kids with OCD or any other people with OCD before but OCD just to interject obsessive compulsive disorder yep and so but you know from my education and everything I thought okay well just give it a try and what I know from what has worked with kids um and what has worked for OCD is traditionally something that not all kids want to do which is cognitive behavioral therapy is like at its purest form not necessarily fun um so using music therapy was a fun way to get to doing sort of exposure therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy strategies so he could be relaxed and I could be relaxed in you know getting him to feel like he could express himself his anxieties and things like that and now this is less than a year later it'll be a year in April and he has absolutely no symptoms he's so what I mean but how did you use music so I always start with a hello song in the beginning that's like I guess a ritual as well for my my kids how does it go um um I'll try to yeah I'm trying to I was easier if I had my guitar in my hand but um it's very simple it's just like hello hello yeah I can't even remember on the spot but anyway it's just basically like saying hello saying how are you feeling today and they get to space to say how they're feeling today I say how I feel today and then we say our names and that's pretty much it and then but it sort of sets the tone right so if they said you know today I feel really sad and angry you know then I thought okay let's you know let's talk about that or let's do some kind of art project around that so I really incorporate as many uh so not just music yeah yeah I incorporate like what like um you know I'll say oh what did you feel sad about whatever and um maybe we'll draw a picture about that you know and and um maybe we'll do a picture he likes to do a lot of superheroes so maybe it'll and so I'll turn it towards okay like if his name was Timmy or something like okay let's draw like super Timmy like the most strong and like brave Timmy there is and cool you know talk about yeah talk about feelings in that way you know uh yeah so that he could replace the scared Timmy with the brave Timmy right and and that having feelings is sometimes really brave uh huh yeah so wow so do you do therapy in your job that besides the expressive arts like just regular talk therapy um yeah I use use more talk therapy than anything else because most of my clients come into the clinic not knowing that I use expressive arts and they'll be curious and interested but to be honest I think a lot of people come in and they're in a much such a high level of of need to talk that I find that talking is more supportive at points than than using the arts um forth for these specific individuals um because as you probably know even though people coming to mental health counselors should be some how not in the highest of needs they often are maybe just to the brink of needing to go to the hospital or something like that and so you're sort of there to help as preventative care to that and and maybe helpful in terms of finding more social work kind of resources and yeah trying to work with them that yeah I mean because usually don't you find that by the time they get themselves to make the appointment and to come in things have gotten I mean it's not like they just thought of it they've probably been thinking of it for months yeah or years yeah yeah I just got a client who's I think he's in first second grade and you know I said oh when did these problems start oh since he was pretty much an infant I'm like okay so you didn't think about bringing them to the therapist before oh no no I didn't think about it so yeah and that's just a six-year-old so yeah time for us to take a break don't go away we'll be right back with more from Marissa Miley Katz you're watching Think Tech Hawaii Hawaii's leading digital media platform for civic engagement raising public awareness on tech energy diversification and globalism great content for Hawaii from Think Tech welcome back to shrink wrap Hawaii with my guest Marissa Miley Katz and Marissa was just telling us about various ways that she uses music therapy in her practice and how else what does tell me some others yeah sure um so I have uh some clients who are more wanting to take the lead and that could be a sign of feeling like things are rather out of control in the rest of their world um and so feeling like they have a space to really take the lead and and make their own symphony in the room you know so a symphony meaning metaphor because we don't have a bunch of instruments in the room like that but we do have many different kinds of instruments and sometimes I I have clients that will say okay today we're going to have different stations with different instruments and each instrument is going to represent a different word in this song and so I'll go through a song on the guitar and singing and every time that it gets to a part they have to run over and do the instruments in that station and oh yeah and so but this is all created by them right so this is all sort of inspired by the playfulness of the space um and I think that's really what the kind of music therapy that I'm using most of the time is just sort of trying to get people to tap into a sense of play so that they can um get to these sort of therapeutic moments there's a lot of ideas about how when we can get into the zone right we can have these sort of cathartic experiences and I think that's the idea too when when kids are able to even lead it themselves and they can create those their own experiences like that and I get to be witness to that wow so interested in me that you said you know you you create this kind of play playful atmosphere yeah how do you do that I don't feel like my counseling is very playful um well I I think starts with just coming to the beginning of okay what do you specialize in well I do music therapy oh it's music therapy well we use music in a way to get to therapeutic goals and and this is an example of that you know I'll say we can sing this song or we can write this song and they go oh I can't do that I don't know I don't know how to do anything with music I can't sing I don't know how to write any poetry or anything I say it's okay you know let's just pretend or we'll just we'll just um we'll just be the worst musicians we can be you know I mean like I'll make it like I'll just say you know just humor me yeah and I feel like that's what a lot of different modalities of therapy have to do just be like I know this feels weird but just give it a shot see how it feels and and then before you know it a lot of times people are relaxed and they're and they're in that zone and they get it after they experience it yeah so how long have you been doing this now I'm only been doing this probably four years now well yeah well I mean it must be surprising what happens all the time yeah there's a lot of surprising moments yeah is yeah scary sometimes um it's been scary at times sure um sometimes when I worked at Perkins school for the blinds in um Watertown Massachusetts there's some kids who really had difficulty with self-control because of disability multiple disabilities and just emotional regulation in combination and not really having a sense of their of their bodies and what they were capable of and so being able to stay safe and also keep them safe was like sometimes a challenge but were you doing music with the the the blind people there yeah um all the people I worked with there were at the population I worked with were adolescents with blindness with some blindness and also with other disabilities um and they were it was interesting actually because a lot of times a lot of what they want to do the acting out kind of things you know tantrum being slamming things you could use to your advantage with the instruments you know you could say like drum it out you know use that drum on that symbol and you know go as hard as you want on it and then and that was like a great outlet for them luckily it was in a basement where I am I can't do that right now I'd love to be able to do that but yeah so they could be as loud as they wanted yeah you can be as angry as they want to be on those drums and those symbols and whatever instruments as long as they're not breaking the instruments right and then you just sort of use so you meet them where they're at emotionally and then you just sort of use the other varying dynamics because after a while you're going to get bored of doing the same so you like so okay let's try that this way and that way and bring it back up bring it back down so you can experience emotion through various dynamics of music too you know you mentioned that that school Perkins school is in Watertown yeah and it makes me remember that you were in Watertown during the Boston Marathon yeah and that must have been scary for you and for the people there yeah it was on lockdown and the school was on lockdown and we just had to wait inside until that whole day until things were cleared up could you sing could I sing I guess so there was not a lot going on because it was spring bake for the kids but yeah I mean do you use it on for yourself oh definitely yeah I definitely I think that's how one of the reasons I first decided okay this is what I want to do just practicing in the practice rooms that I'm my music program in college for you know hours at a time and I would feel like all different feelings coming in sometimes I wouldn't want to be there and using the music regardless of how I was feeling to practice and by the time I was done feeling better however it was just like how people use exercise to feel better so you would use singing yeah yeah I would use singing and it would sometimes that was yeah there was a way to vocalize whatever I was going through and then by the end of it I felt a lot more relaxed and centered in my thinking yeah just I remember I took voice lessons for a short time and just singing scales maybe it's just using your breath yeah I think so it's very relaxing I mean just talking about it now yeah yeah you still do that I practice singing and stuff well use yeah yeah I still use music to yeah to feel better about whatever is going on if if I if I'm having a tough time yeah I'm definitely writing lyrics to yeah writing lyrics your own lyrics oh yeah yeah huh so you're also you write songs yeah I don't know if I'll ever share them but yeah do you use them in your practice yeah well I use that's how I got the hello song made up that as a music therapy student you have to you have to make your own hello and goodbye song and you're encouraged to make as many songs as you can if you feel like they would help people therapeutically yeah so I need a song like before I do the show each week I'm terrified yeah maybe you can help me with a song yeah how do I start I don't know I think yeah start with the hello song yeah sure whatever whatever you feel like is gonna like you said meet your meet your anxiety where you at whatever I'm scared I'm scared I'm really really scared there you go it really is freaking me out yeah it doesn't matter if I sing badly the second verse could be like maybe it won't be so scary maybe it will maybe we'll have nothing to say it'll be really bad we'll have no thing to say but it'll be okay but it'll all be okay yeah right what's the worst that can happen right yeah right exactly so what scares you the most oh my gosh um I I think different things at different times but I what scares me the most um that I'll never be able to move back to Hawaii I'd love to move back oh wow what do you miss about Hawaii oh I miss the weather for sure I miss it's cold in Boston now yeah I miss the people and I miss the food yep maybe you can write a song about that oh yeah there's a lot of songs about that already too yeah about missing Hawaii oh yeah yeah is there a place do you have a special place oh yeah Kailua beach that is your magic place Kaila beach is definitely a place I think of when I think oh I miss Hawaii yeah what is it about the beach the sunrise uh-huh yeah every morning it's different and beautiful in its own way and yep wow so would if you could bring some of Boston to Kailua beach what would you bring or vice versa or vice versa um I would bring really good gelato and ice cream to Hawaii and uh let's see coffee maybe very good coffee I would probably bring a lot of universities with me uh-huh and libraries yep well I think we're running out of time so I wanted to thank you Marissa for being on the show today thank you for having me and maybe we could think of a goodbye song which they could take out right yeah just bring us out with a little music goodbye goodbye goodbye