 Thank you for joining us. I'm Peter Bergen of New America and we're honored to have Jerry Van Dyke Come on to discuss his new book without borders the economy network and the road to Kabul If you want to purchase the book there's a button in the right hand corner of the screen Jerry has been a correspondent variously for the New York Times and a consultant also with CBS He's traveled repeatedly to Afghanistan since the 80s when he was covering the Afghan-Soviet war which he was nominated for a Pulitzer During the 80s when he was working for the New York Times. He's also worked for National Geographic magazine hence all the interesting Weapon where he has behind him and After 9-11 he went back to Afghanistan and Pakistan reporting for CBS in 2008 he was kidnapped by the Taliban And he's written a book another book very interesting book called captive about trying to untangle how that all happened And he's presently working on a book about pat tilman who was killed in the carney territory the us football player back in 2004 So jerry gonna hand it over to you to talk about some of the big themes and stories of your book and then i'll engage you in some q&a And will anybody who has a question just put it in the slide out and i'll Also, it's on to jerry. So jerry over to you Thank you peter for uh the introduction especially for hosting this event for me in 1981 when I lived in the mountains in eastern afghanistan with jalala dean Akhani and his 16 of his fellow tribesmen and his younger brother ibrahim I noticed one day and an egyptian army major came to visit us and He did not like me jalaling put him in the same room where I was staying in his dirt floor and such in this big mud compound up in the mountains and he asked me Uh, if I knew anything about the about anwar sidat the president of Egypt and I said yes, he'd just been assassinated and I was surprised that he didn't know this but he was very happy And I realized during the time that he was there that he had a certain power. It seemed over jalala dean. We had three sam seven Anti aircraft missiles very hard to come by at that time and he demanded it seemed the right to shoot To shoot one and so he did and as my my interpreter said he killed many rocks But he all that also while he was trying to shoot down this soviet helicopter let the soviets know where we were So he put us in considerable danger So when al-qaeda was formed years later it dawned on me That even then I thought at that very time that jalala dean here with a small group of men is part of something larger Than this war in afghanistan. Otherwise, why would this this egyptian army major come here? And when al-qaeda rose I realized Bang, perhaps he is part of what became al-qaeda and so after I was Many years later after I was kidnapped cbs would not let me go back at that time to Would let me go east of turkey. They said For fear that I would get in trouble again. And so I had by that time already written something for the army war college on the rise of What we call here in the west islamic fundamentalism in south asia afghanistan, pakistan, india, bangladesh and keshmir And so I wanted to Go to the middle east and see if I could do the same thing and at the same time Finally look into the links that I knew existed And the among various jihadi groups and the role that the akhanis played in that I got a grant from the foundation Eventually a book and in a book contract and then I embarked upon this journey in late 2013 Starting in yemen was there for four months to learn to go to school went to a muslim brotherhood school in sanah and then to Saudi Arabia And from there I had after this would be seven months into it. I had a A lunch one day in Bahrain with jamal khashoggi Who also was in afghanistan as a journalist as well as working for the government in the 1980s? And so as two old afghan hens if you will we're sitting in this expensive restaurant in Bahrain Where he had a you know, he had wine for lunch and he talked about these joys of smoking cigars So on one hand he was a very liberal if you will West not western but just a Modern urban man But yet he made it very clear that he was very much a part of and understood that isis was Was what he called raw ahabism that saudi arabia was wahabi and would bother him Considerably and was the same thing that had bothered me considerably was that how did the afghans Who in the mujahideen in the 1980s with all the weapons that they got from The us china and the brettz and the and the french and others Not once was there one suicide bombing now Were there any indications ever of trying to kill women or children? They held on to their ancient tribal codes pretty much the pashtoons There were all ethnic groups were involved in this of not harming women and children How is it then it after 9 11 there was this complete change and what what khashoggi was talking about was You have it was this raw ahabism emanates from from saudi arabia Initially and find out how much of that has become a part of afghanistan and What has this done to that country and so I had watched like like peter like anybody who you know in the audience era among all of you or Were with us Been in afghanistan since 9 11 What a rigid country it has become because when I was there at the very beginning of Yes, women were not Not involved in things, but they certainly didn't hide. They were certainly evident around in the countryside I was not allowed to talk to them or certainly not to take a picture But they were very much a part of the country but everything had changed and so it was a combination of My ties to the to the akhanis where they were so good to me treating me so well in the most memorable time and real quickly is that When I would when it came time to leave That somehow because I didn't see them anytime on I was there jalalidine and or his 16 men member of his fellow of his fellow tribe Found two camels bought two camels and with half of his men We walked in the camels were mine sweepers We walked at dusk through a minefield what he was willing to do which he had done before was risk the Possibly the least the legs the life of all of his men to protect me to make sure that I always the guest got to Oh made my way back to pakistan So I had this close tie to akhani which I never really let go and that Was one reason why I went to the middle east to try and figure out what in the world was really going on and that led me beginning in in in yemen and particularly in saudi arabia Where I learned that over time That when isis rose for example that they would say all the Saudis I met the fire will not come here They instinctively knew that they it's going to go everywhere else, but they would be protected and in yemen where which Where I spent four months before I made my way to saudi arabia I learned that From initially from a man named terrik al-fadli who has been lad's best friend his father was close to bin lad's father And that went back to to the very beginning when the two men came this from a certain part of the hadramat down in yemen that He became the founder of what the united states and its allies eventually called al-qaeda in the arabian peninsula And what he told me was in the principal enemy of saudi arabia And that was a surprise because of the close ties Among all of the what we called I didn't call so much, but others did arab afghans who came to With the backing of the united states and with in working in tandem with all its arab allies in the 1980s These thousands of young men came to fight with the afghans in this great jihad With a capital j which even no one not one person today in afghanistan post 9 11 has ever used jihad In that sense they always refer to jihad again with a capital j so important to the afghan and soviet war so all of these things led to Particularly in yemen now my Being told time and time again that al-qaeda does not exist in a vacuum al-qaeda There are so many different types of al-qaeda here. There's an al-qaeda run by this commander There's an al-qaeda run by the president. There's a counter on another al-qaeda run by the vice president So it was becoming clear to me that al-qaeda was not simply something that had grown out of nothing Or the companionship and the camaraderie that existed among the arabs in in afghanistan But was backed by arab governments and in particularly this now there's As we know today, there's there's no love loss between yemen and in saudi arabia which goes back thousands of years, but the very simple fact is that Al-qaeda and it's in it's and it's in a sentence, you know Isis and and boka haram and all of these things are very much alive today and everybody from in all my entire travels from cartoom to egypt to to saudi arabia to throughout throughout all the countries that i visited In the middle east and in turkey, which is arguably part of the middle east it all came back to the rise of the arab what i call the arabization the wahhabism of afghanistan and which is very much I think of great concern to will be of great concern to us because war in afghanistan is certainly not finished it's going to come back in different forms and my book was the It was the study of this and the learning in my view of what essentially is a In the eyes of jihadists in the eyes of their backers Whether they're rich saudi princes or elements of governments is this is a religious war which began as we all know shortly after the the the founding of islam and And that war continues today and we have to in my view We have to find a way to to to not turn this into a war of civilizations, you know the huntington the huntington thesis but So my book was an exploration of Of all of this and ultimately using gelaladine and Now what has become what the u.s. And its allies call the akhani network as a symbol of the rise of the jihadist movement uh, which goes back centuries and to As a symbol of this and using that family with which I have certain ties going back to my time with them and they continue today to try and understand The their movement from their side As well as to expand to explain to the west what is happening and for my own personal reasons to try and find out Why the akhani network in my view is I was learning was so Influential today and peter's going to talk a little bit about this later We were talking briefly about it before how the rise of his sons have simply a continuation of the the the growth and the power of what I consider arguably the most Influential most powerful jihadist force in part because it's backed by the pakistani army in the world today That is the essence of the book Okay, well Well, um You know saracha khani is the son of gelaladine akhani And he's the military commander of the akhani network According to the u.n. Um, he's also part of the part of the leadership council of al-qaeda But so can you reflect? There's reports on saturday that saracha khani made comments that position himself as the real leader of the taliban Which raises kind of an interesting question now the akhani network of orders have been a kind of slightly separate from the kandahari taliban in the south What what is the nature of that relationship? Because it seems to me without having any of the expertise you have that The akhanis have been kind of the at the forefront of the taliban's military successes Um, which might account for why saraj thinks he's really the leader Um, so what is the nature of that relationship other tensions between it? might the taliban split along You know akhani network in eastern afghanistan southern afghanistan the kandahari taliban or Are they united enough so that they will kind of continue? on Fascinating uh information you have betra. Um, I wasn't aware of this the saraj adin was As i'm sure most people here today know was the military commander Eventually in the end of the of the taliban And it was the akhani network that took kabal The kandahari taliban came later 2015 when I began to meet with the akhanis again ibrahim akhani saraj adin's uncle Jalal adin's younger brother said to me we are and this is a quote a separate front From the taliban. We have never been a part of them in 2019. I was working with uh with the fbi in in At the embassy in kabal and the the head of the fbi really A fine man because it's very unusual to find someone In the fbi or in the government who will allow you to To try and in this case help them sent me to Is to see the I wanted to go on my own also is to see the akhanis in in islamabad And saraj adin said to me the only person who could get to us that Nobody in the u.s peacekeeping mission had access to them the pakistani army was keeping them as he put it behind a curtain in 2022 after the taliban took power saraj adin It was in february in 2002 went to kandahar Where he gave a speech It came out the bbc reported it was all in darian and pasto Never i've never seen it translated into english in which he said we used 1570 what we sent 1570 afghans if you will to paradise What he was saying was that we the akhani network are a part of you the taliban and that We are one we are together and that we have suffered greatly and saraj adin's best friend and mentor told me That that was his way of reaching out to kandahar to the taliban leadership and saying that we are one He said this was the one it was a good thing for him to do since then There has been this there is a divide today very much so in the akhani's run cabal The kandahari taliban rule in kandahar The head of the taliban the emir of the taliban wants to move the head court the capital of the country to kandahar The among the the biggest problem in the four americans today about the taliban is the discrimination against to put a mobly women The akhani as as christianne emin poor showed us in in her Meaning with her interview with akhani. She she commented on the fact that he had used women Had women in the interior ministry and it's one man It's the leader of the akhani of the taliban akanzata who is Opposed he is in the eyes of of the akhani's still acting like a village mula and so that tension that Exists as now according to with this latest statement Come out where if this is potentially We don't know what will happen dangerous Yeah, so you so you're saying that the akhani's are more open to having women work in the workforce and the commander of the faithful Is kind of you know, he's the person who's sort of nixing that which I I mean It is a theocratic state and if you're the commander of the faithful you are in charge so But you this is kind of a a a bone of contention between them Yeah, oh, definitely, uh, I I have never met sarajedine. I do not have direct access to him I would like to someday, but I use his mentor and his best friend who Now that his father has gone his his mentor and his his best friend who keeps me informed and he has said that everybody around the The commander of the faithful Is afraid to stand up to him and so they follow the rules and as peter just told us he is this is not a democracy This is a bureaucracy and so it's a one-man rule The what ebraham akhani told me is that they they inoculated all their daughters Uh for covet when the u.s began to bomb them Uh, and this this is where one thing I wanted to get into later or a little bit which I didn't at the front This is this is also very much a class war the akhani's were dirt poor and they have risen over the above The if you will the tribal aristocracy in in their own tribe And this this is something that is goes on throughout throughout the middle east not unlike that Which is going on in the u.s only it's more violent there And he said when the u.s began to bomb them it was because of a tribal leader In their in the zidran tribe that they sent all their daughters to protect them to the middle east He made it very clear to me ebraham did and this is where we argued that they were still hanifi We would not we were we do not oppose statues In other words, we would not have destroyed the famous buddha statues at bamyan and what the teleban did in 2000 That may but so then you know on the other hand I mean the other dimension of this is you know It's the um that's reporting that saraja khani's part of the leadership of the council of al qaeda This is not and the report is publicly available And new reporters came out yesterday, but there is you know previous reports and These reports by the un monitoring cell for the taliban and al qaeda are very thorough And they're based on reporting by member states. So Yeah, okay The akhanis may have a slightly more enlightened view of the role of women in the workforce although it's all extremely relative But what about that relationship with al qaeda? I I agree it exists and they admit that Even more than that after After saraja dean gave his speech in kandahar in february 2002 uh the sadis invited him And his younger brother anas who's probably 30 31 Who has seen us the future of the akhani network to saudi arabia To introduce them And it I firmly believe and I have I don't have the the information that you have and I certainly believe it about What the un is saying, but I've even heard that That the saraja dean was His name was bantered around as being the replacement for ben lad um So by the way, that would be a kind of a smart choice I mean, it's a puzzle why they haven't named a successor to amen al-zawari who was killed in july of 2022 right right saraj you know that That would actually be a very interesting choice of course hitherto the leaders of al qaeda have been arabs not um people from south asia, but um That's an interesting idea Yeah, they say it could be south al-adel, but he's he's egyptian in tehran um Right, I just but the links the Some of you may know, but the in 1973 when the akhani's began to fight And always separate from the mujahideen and they began to work with the pakistanis the pakistanis Introduced them to the sadis. They gave them passports and they have been working there for decades. So uh, and Very, it's very unusual, but jalalah the dean After his wife first wife died married a yemeni and he lived in nambu dhabi for a while So those children some of those boys uh Because we have to keep the women out of that in this case could are our They're half arab as well as half bhashtan so The the the akhani tie to the middle east is is is is considerable Let me ask you a couple of let me ask you so You mentioned these trips to yemen and saudi. You mentioned meeting tarik al-fadli who is a very interesting Guy that I know I mean I would be very interested in meeting him too. He uh An old friend of ben laden's a yemeni who kind of was running the You know was probably behind Some of the taris attacks in yemen He I think he you know plays played as some sort of important political role in yemen As far as I can tell he seems to have disappeared, but tell us about tarik al-fadli and his relationship with ben laden in yemen Then how did you meet him and also? You know you've been kidnapped by the taliban In 2008. I mean like these these this kind of reporting is pretty tricky That's true. He was under house arrest in uh insana It was arranged by um Two journalists one were vfp uh zhanshul france press uh and the other for the uh yemen yemeni state news agency who arranged for me to meet with him. We met I met with him twice We talked at length. Um, he was very very polite the one time he um The second time we met there were a lot of Well, I'll go back to the first time when I walked into medium. I was afraid. I without a doubt. Um And no one said anything but he was very gracious and Because I had been with jalala dean Who he had liked so much? Which said that that told me two things one That the founder of and it was very and he acknowledged just the founder of al-qaeda in yemen knew Jalalah deen and that they were Working together back before al-qaeda was before al-qaeda was formed which makes it very clear of jalala deen's ties to al-qaeda and therefore He certainly would not bother his children to become involved in that in any way. Um Um According according to People around him Yeah, ben la ben laden wrote a will and he willed so much of what he had to tarik al-fadley And their their ties were that close And he was in effect the emissary of ben laden to to yemen they wanted to create a a a bureaucracy not unlike that they Hope that they could create in Uh in afghanistan. They wanted to start with yemen ben laden Wanted to use yemen as his as his as his His base if you had nowhere else to go because it was he had married a yemen. That was his father's home That couldn't come about so everything went through tarik al-fadley. It was tarik al-fadley. He told me And I think this is important of jollala deans ties to ben laden and also his ties and this came from his meetings in cartoon When and this he's going to skip the man's going to escape my name. Maybe you'll know him Who set up these meetings and brought jihadis and Even people like carlos the jackal everybody together to create a a new world after the After the after the al-qaeda after the taliban after the the mujahideen one in cartoon and this even people like Leaders in commanders in Generals in the pakistani army were there and this was in joe This is where jollala dean and tarik al-fadley spent time together So it was the internationalization if you will through through tarik al-fadley into the airworld with jollala dean Derek al-fadley Had ties to the top of Do What's his name the salla the president of of yemen? Ali Abdullah salla He had ties to the vice president and because what tarik al-fadley's credential was is that his father And it goes back. He said 700 years was the sultan of this particular part of yemen and the british the british sent the father away to Zanzibar, I think it was and so when he returned he created its city in our town in in his fiefdom there in yemen called zanzibar so tarik al-fadley had the And has today because he's still alive the tribal The tribal power of being the son of a sultan And it was when he was living in it was when he was living in after when The british came and then after the the rise of the communists in in uh following The the revolution if you will in yemen in 1967 Aristocrats like tarik al-fadley all went to live in saudi arabia and it was there that he became Through his older brother If you will radicalized which sent him to tooth Afghanistan where he became Because of the family ties that goes back to the beginning so many probably century Well, no, not centuries to his father to jala to ben london's father Who is simply a Very, very wealthy man while well tarik al-fadley's father was The sultan had been the sultan of this part of yemen for 700 or that family for 700 years. So that's where the alliance allegiance began which Tarik al-fadley has When I was there and I left in 2014 certainly kept alive Yeah, so these are some audience questions. Uh, is there an ideology of the other kakani's ideological? Um, good question They will say to ibrahim and I have to use ibrahim as my main source here because I haven't talked with Uh, his nephew or his khalil his other brother. Um He said that in addition to being a separate front and not being He he kept insisting that he was haunty and I said no you've changed too much You're using suicide bombers and why in the world you do this and we talked argued at length about this but he would come back to the fact that We have not changed. It's only you Americans who have changed to us. There's no difference between the americans and the russians. You're both in our land Why are you here? We want you to leave when you we may Maybe in the future we will invite you back But for them They saw themselves simply I mean this is ibrahim talking to me and I'm saying it's the exact truth that we are patriots, if you will we are our home is afghanistan and and one time when he, uh, lamented that, um They were stuck in islamabad He said to me maybe out when we're ending one of our our meetings is he gave me a hug and he said Maybe the next time I will see you it will be in afghanistan um I think that they're They're not so and I'll give you one other example which in my view says and I'm certainly don't want to give anybody the impression that I support The way in which they They're treating killing so many women and children is that there was um One of sarajin's brothers named nasreddin. I don't know if you know him peter who was the link to the middle east and in 2012 The u.s. Started according to the akhanis into others was putting pressure on pakistan to move the akhanis away from the border get them back and Saraj and so Nasreddin was told by The pakistanis to move and he said to him you became he was arrogant and he said this is our land We are not moving from our land our land goes all the way to the adak atto ck what we call the indus river And shortly thereafter he went to uh on a friday He went to buy to a bakery to buy some bread a jeep pulled up out in front Men got out and shot him to death and I asked um, I asked Ibrahim who killed him? He said, I don't know To either the cia or the isi What i'm saying is that and the reason that he talked like this uh was because And i'm getting ahead ahead of ourselves the ttp that terry ki thought about pakistan the pakistan taliban movement And Whose leaders are in afghanistan and the taliban are one in the same They just have different agendas at the moment. They are pashtuns who want their what they call their land back Which ends at the for some at the indus river for others all the way to islamabad and that goes back to 1805 when the british sent uh In a delegation if you will and across the across the indus river into the land of the afghan's tuker shower They've always considered that their land The duran line as many of you know, which came about in 1893 dividing the pashtuns into Which today is the border between pakistan and afghanistan is something that they do not want to last so are they ideological? I think that they are 100 percent ideological in the fact that they do not want Anybody in afghanistan except afghanis. They want a theocracy And i think because of their natural human ambition They are definitely aligned as peters said to the larger i'm convinced of this the larger jihadist movement in the world Which is against any western encroachment on their land and in that case. Yes, they're ideological Let me ask you something about so i'm confused on uh on this issue So there is the madrasa called the haqqani madrasa Which many of the taliban have attended I'll and then of course as the haqqani family If you attend this haqqani haqqani madrasa, do you sometimes take on the name of haqqani as kind of an honorific? Or is it only a family thing? Okay Peter's referring to a particular madrasa in beshour That i'm sure most of you know about The what i did was i that is called a deal bondi madrasa and the deal bondis came out of the struggle for independence in against and jerry just to interrupt you just for context the the the man who run it was called sami al haqq Right, so and he was right fascinated relatively recently, but but so Yeah, so there's the family and then there's the madrasa and what are the relics, you know, how does this relate to the taliban? They the reason i was going off about the deal bond in the deal bond your headquartered in north of deli this al haq went to a deal went to deal bond after After partition, he founded the haqqani madrasa the um The akhqani madrasa and by the way, there were no madrasas in afghanistan before the 1973. This is important to know and it's the rise of of the u.s. Saudi pakistani alliance and the rise of the deal bondis which led to To the the vast majority to all of the madrasas that exist at that time Nobody in the akhqani family had ever gone to a madrasa. Jalaluddin never went to a madrasa He went he was involved. He never went to university Kabul University, but he was involved in all the in the student movement if you will Which was again, it was between You know the struggle or the debates among communist students and were lured to marxism and those who were Lured to to islam Jalaluddin went for the one year schooling at This mad at the madrasa deal bonding madrasa in posh hour there a haqq asked him To stay on for another year as an instructor I think And to answer first your question there comes a time in an afghan's life an afghan man's life when he and i don't know the the etymology of all of this but He is allowed to change his name govadeen haq matyaar. Oh, no, that's not his real name a man. I deal with a lot For peter knows his name deen mohammed That is not his real name. So jalaluddin took on the name of haqqani it as his last name Therefore it became the family name Gotcha Yeah, that that helps that helps explain that a lot um Another question from the audience You know to what do the do oh, this is a great question to other Do other people in the taliban refer to the akhani network or is that kind of a u.s. Government construction or a journalistic construction? I mean do they We've talked about how the taliban how the akhani network see the other parts of the taliban But what about how did the taliban see the akhanis? I've never heard i've never heard an afghan use the word akhani network interesting okay um This one is from an how do you see your own future relationship with the akhanis in light of that evolution? What did you discover on your latest visit to the region? I've tried to uh Tell myself no more. I have to stop this tie to this link to the akhanis. However um Even now as I sit here with you Uh three different groups all in all american One um A Christian movement if you will yet in in the west Lawyers and um Former government officials have come to me seeking my help to reach the akhanis on behalf of of One case with the with the evangelical christian uh group A hostage um who may or may not be Held by the akhanis but because of the power of the akhanis they've not been able to get any help anywhere else They've spent a lot of money. They've come to me Others have two others have come to me about the akhanis The akhanis called me about three weeks ago welcoming me back That's code for we want you to come back in some way someone told me So I try to leave but I I feel an obligation because of my ties to them because they trust me Uh, I walk I realize I'm walking a very fine line um But They they want my help. They is sarajedine's best friend reaches out to me. We talked frequently um Now the family wants me to come back. I see my future still Um, it's not finished yet with me and the akhanis Yeah, when was the last time you were in afghanistan pakistan? 2018 2019 But the situation across this chain. I mean sarajedine is really the most important Person in afghanistan right now because as the um minister of the interior I mean for americans who may not be familiar with it's Sort of like running the department of homeland security the fbi Uh, the intelligence services. I mean he control the prison system He controls all the national security apparatus and you say as you point out They also control the capital carpal. So like he is really the most important person in the country right now Exactly and it was his um cousin Who called me and said we welcome you back. We welcome you back. Um, they called me twice And I still not sure if he's just being polite Or if they had um if they have a reason Well, as you know, it's a public knowledge that the I mean we've had Four americans who've been taken and since released we've had Five british citizens who've been taken and since released almost certainly all in the custody of the akhanis and or they're kind of um You know people that are in there Employee So, I mean if you were to go back wouldn't you be taking a pretty big risk? And when you were kidnapped in 2008 was it which element of the Taliban? uh, you know kidnapped you I'm I I don't take lightly the Well, he just asked me and At all and yes, I think about that 100 percent. Um, it's not just the akhanis. It's as One of the people around them said you have to watch out for iranians In the iranian element here. It was very anti-american, which is very strong because of the shia uh shia population In in in kabola and elsewhere. Um So I'm I'm very much aware of that um The second part of your question was what um Well, let me let me jump to because we have actually kind of a fair amount of audience questions I want to try and get to them So what are your thoughts on international engagement with the Taliban? I mean, this is a big deal. I'm Um, and how long do you think the Taliban will be able to hold on to Kabul? Obviously, you know international element is The last time the Taliban were in power three countries recognized them. Saudi Arabia the united amirates and pakistan this time around No countries recognize them And yet, you know, there's 97 of afghans are living below the poverty line It's got the highest rates of highest levels of hunger in any country in the world, according to the united nations So, you know the international community or united states Whatever has a kind of dilemma on its hands that the Taliban do run the show they and in fact, as you know, Jerry very well Before 9 11, there was a fairly active opposition movement and there's no really active opposition to speak of right now And they're better on this time around. They've got american military gear the united states left behind They are in charge. So how do you You know, what is the right american policy approach to to this question? What I do know is That The u.s. Has sent a number of delegations to meet with suraj edin it is sent in And one thing that's worrying the iranians Is that the u.s. Has become closer to the Taliban? This is what I am hearing from them I do know that Doha is you know, qatar is our Is is our embassy if you american embassy now just as this we use switzerland As our embassy to handle american affairs in iran. So we use qatar as our embassy in in Afghanistan and we have sent the u.s. Has sent delegations to To doha and they're meeting with the akhanis and they're meeting with others, but The fact that we have sent and it's certainly quiet sent delegations to the suraj edin means And the fact that this is upsetting the iranians because we're drawing closer to them To the to the Taliban and they put the two together I don't think and I certainly agree with everything that the you've said and the question here is asked Because of what the Taliban are and what they what they have done And most vividly of course for everybody is is women They what they said to me also regarding women recently and I don't know of course that this is true that look for march 21st, which is afghan new year for a change Uh, I don't know if something special is going to happen, but they they certainly they certainly talked about That's interesting This is a question from hassan additional one How long will the Taliban be able to hold on to Kabul and your assessment? I mean is this uh Obviously last time that they seized Kabul in 96 they held on for it for five years and they lost it when the u.s. Intervened Right Go ahead. Kabul is as uh afghan followers know In this question you may know is a is a is a Tajik city. This the curriculum in the schools is in Dari. It's in persian. It's not in bushto They the Taliban are kandaharis. They're from the south. So it is a very liberal Persian the culture is persian um So they are outsiders, but all you have to note that Around the entire country and this comes from the former mayor who's a Tajik who's now he stayed with me after after the The youngest mayor in the history of Kabul was 39 years old and he's I know his father who was um Spokesman for the munjahideen and he stayed with me after the u.s Withdrawal now lives in canada. He stays in he is very close to elements on the ground particularly the masood Masood's son's element In bunshir and in the north and he said that the ikanis have the greatest military alliances throughout afghanistan Yeah So and it's not just kabul, which is Not their homeland. Yeah, I just so the for the audience You know the ikanis of I mean as I understand and correct me if I'm wrong I mean that sort of traditional It's like there there's a as a drawn tribal grouping in Eastern afghanistan, but where where else are there? What are what are the areas that they completely control versus what the other elements of the Taliban control? um They have gone so far as to mount attacks before this is before the fall Of meaning before the before the ghani government. They were mounting attacks in In haraad, which is on the persian, which is on the iranian border. There is a fellow and they were they held They kidnapped in 2016 a Kevin king and american and felony and timothy weeks in australian And I talked to kevin weeks and he was held for three years in kandahar So the the ikani reach is not as and peter knows it's it's They're along it's It's east southeastern afghanistan And one reason they were were successful is that their militia was based in logar province And they were able to reach the capital kabul before the taliban. So the ikanis come up are closer to uh geographically to the travel areas of pakistan to pakistan and that it's backing itself where they Where they've always been able to uh have sanctuary. So they they operate they do not operate in the north but Isis or isk as some will call it, uh, islamic state of karashan And isis are in the north. They are beginning to threaten uh, usbekistan, they're beginning to threaten tajikistan And they are, um, the ikanis enemies. So iakani certainly do not control the entire country, but i would say that they control But i cannot it's not jerry on the ground. He gives this information that this comes from the tajiks That they do have considerable power So the pakistani taliban you mentioned in the beginning is now sort of headquartered in afghanistan, which is You know kind of the ironies keep piling up but Do the ikanis have any kind of restraining Uh ability to restrain the pakistani taliban from attacks into pakistan After all, as you mentioned the ikanis do have a long relationship with the pakistani intelligence service How does this all work? I don't I wish I had an answer to that what I can say is that And again, this goes to sarajanine's mentor best friend told me that the isi had set up itself in kandahar The isi is in is in Kabul so that pakistani Alliance with with ikanis if it exists and I have not heard any Any indication from the khanis that it has changed I think that that gives them the considerable influence throughout the country still very much so in that pakistan Uh, are they close to can they reign in the ttp? I don't have the answer to that. It's a good question Yeah I think sometimes the more you know about pakistan the less you know about it. So, you know in Yeah 2006 or so I was at the u.s. Embassy and uh having a few journalists there and the Public relations person had taken us there and uh the u.s. Ambassador. I forget his name now was on Was just leaving and it was on his way to bag dead And he said and he's an arabist and he said pakistan is the murkiest country. I have ever worked in That's ryan crocker. Who's an ira exactly? Yeah By the way speaking so when you do the all reporting, I mean are you Are you what languages are you speaking in or how do you do this? I mean a it seems Very dangerous a lot of this and be You're having to deal with some I mean it's pashto for the Pashtoons and dowry for the tajiks and arabic for the arabs and how do you communicate? Uh Pigeon very very very bad arabic and very very bad uh pashto That I know words. I do not know paragraphs. Um, I do not know complete sentences It's that and always having uh a translator as as much as I can with me Uh, and one thing I do want to say as regards to that. I remember going once 2017 uh, am I translator refused to go she was afraid In in pakistan to See the akhannis and it was ibrahim Uh and his son and myself only the three of us and ibrahim could see that I was nervous And he said to me Don't be nervous. Don't be afraid You were with us during jihad We will never forget this If you have no friends in the world you could always come and stay with us. You are our friend Every time I see him. He gives me big hugs Um, it's it's a very How does that fit into when you were in 2008 by the Taliban? I did not answer that part of your question. I forgot. Yeah, um, I was kidnapped in bhajur agency for those of you understand the tribal areas size of canada against the far in the far north I used jalala dean's name as much as possible to try and stay alive in 2017 15 When I met for the first time after 30 years with ibrahim In islamabad in a guest house with all kinds of civilians there who were clearly part of the isi um We were by ourselves. I told him about the kidnapping and he knew nothing about it How long were you taken for 45 days six and a half weeks? Yeah I mean and what what was the circumstance for you being released? Uh um Two things a number of things about that. Um, one day The my lead jailer Said that the political he mentioned that the political officer had come to see him That means nothing to the outside world But and it didn't mean enough to me at the time But the political officer is a position Created by the british Which the pakistani's inherited and used As the british did if not more so and it's a man who has complete control Or is supposed control of and is supposed to know everything about each tribal area of The tribal areas of pakistan think in some ways of say the navajo reservation or a large indian reservation in the us um And he reports directly with it. He has an unlimited budget and he reports directly to the prime minister How would he know how what is the political officer doing? Coming to see the man who had was my main jailer This didn't dawn on me for a long time that wait a minute pakistan knows i am here Because what i felt was that i was kidnapped But somehow i felt that it was it got out of the kidnappers hands and became it became very dangerous for me with with the mock executions and ultimate and a Couple weeks and three weeks or so after i was kidnapped a drone appeared above us My fixer who betrayed me asked if i could see inside and i said no But of course somehow the u.s. Knew the area where i was and I was ultimately Ransom But i never could figure out who was ultimately involved because there were a number just as in other kidnapping cases that All of these cases have involved Uh This in some form or another even though you'll never read it in the newspapers um i'm very much involved and peter's part of this in some ways the in the hostage world so um There i went back And while i was doing this to my researching this book Which led me back again to the aconis which led me to Look deeply into Who really kidnapped me and why because i felt that the government Was in some way involved and another reason as we worked out as i was brought out Uh as i was passed from one group to another Very late at night i noticed that the group this one group that i came to was far more heavily armed Uh than any taliban group that i had ever observed or seen photographs of so i i didn't i feel it was some kind of some kind of ISI back militia in some way so i Because we have limited time i want to get to this final uh good question, which is You know the big question is how long will the taliban be able to govern without viable engagement with the surrounding region and international recognition? great question One thing okay to answer that question quickly is that what's as i said earlier that the us Is sending delegations to meet with sarajadine? The un is sending delegations to meet with him the sadis send delegations to meet with him Although they've just moved their embassy out into pakistan because they're afraid of rumors of an attack by isis the iranians Are very much involved in afghanistan russia has lost lost considerable influence because of the war in ukraine but they all have Their agenda china has just signed an agreement Uh as people know to i think for oil or coal in the north all of these nations china russia um and one thing There it's really concerning. It's it's disconcerting and this comes again from sarajadine's mentor told me just a week ago That a number of regional powers come and meet with the taliban now once uh and including those You know world powers not once has anybody talked about or complained about human rights in other words about what's going on with women They all have their own geopolitical concerns And they are they're they are involved. They are not recognizing the taliban officially, but there is a considerable uh amount of Exchange going on among The international community meaning the un as well as the us and it's certainly not its you know china and Iran among others and certainly pakistan is there So you think that so to answer the question I mean, I think you're saying that The a lot of countries are sort of treating the taliban as a de facto government And the international recognition issue is sort of a seems like a non-issue them Yes, yes, that doesn't mean that there's everything is we're all aware of and the audience and the group here today is the the the poverty the the lack of food the denigration that Put a mildly of women all of those things don't exist and But there's also And again, I go back to sarajadine's friend is that there's great danger He said in afghanistan today because the majority of the people are opposed to the taliban leadership's treatment of women and this draconian way in which they are are Handing down these these dictums particularly regarding women has infuriated Most of the public and what is of great danger and the taliban are aware of this of a brain drain doctors and engineers men women with Degrees who they need to make the country grow they need Want to leave and we'll find ways to leave the taliban cannot afford to lose It's it's it's it's academic leadership if you will or the doctors and the engineers are going to make that country somewhat modern Jerry, thank you very much on behalf of the audience. The book is without borders the akani network and the road to Kabul you can buy If you there's a button at the bottom right hand there will screen like to buy it Anyway, on behalf of the audience we want to really thank you. Jerry and thanks for all your very illuminating insights today and good luck with the rest of the book tour Thanks so much Peter for everything. Thank you. Bye. Bye