 INAG counters the National Assembly lawmakers saying that nationwide e-transmission of results is possible. And founder of the Congress for Progressive Change CPC Rufai Hanger says there was an implied agreement that President Mohammad Buhari would hand over power to Bola Meditinovou in 2023. All this and more on post-policy. I am Mary-Anna Cohen. The Independent National Electoral Commission, INAG, has said it has the capacity for electronic transmission of results from remote areas of the country. This follows several days of hostile debates and divisions on both chambers of the National Assembly and across the country over the decision of the National Assembly on the amendment of the Electoral Act. Speaking on behalf of the Commission, INAG National Commissioner and Chairman of the Information and Voter Education Committee, Festos Okoye, said its optimism was based on the fact that its joint committee made up of telecommunications stakeholders had revised the system and concluded that electronic transmission of results was practicable. He added that INAG would be guided by the power granted by the Constitution and the law. Joining us to discuss this is Barista Munde Ubani, who is a doctor. Also joining us is Mr Festos Okoye. Thank you very much gentlemen for being part of the conversation. Thank you for having us. Great. Before I come to you Mr Okoye, let me just quickly go to Barista Ubani for a translation of what the Constitution has to say about this, but we cannot go there without referring to what happened on the floor of the National Assembly last week. It was a very rowdy session. In fact, pundits and people who have analyzed the situation over and over again have said that most of the people who voted, voted along the lines of ethnic sentiments, of course on political sentiments, party lines and all of that. But my question is, where does the interest of the avid Nigeria come in all of this? Well thank you. You must remember that we have come a long way in our electoral journey as a nation. We have had issues of undue interference in our electoral process by stakeholders, especially the despised politicians, who most of the times want to rig themselves into power. And stakeholders and patreots, they all came together and say we cannot continue like this. It's better we really sharpen our electoral framework to get it right, just like other nations have gotten it right with the electoral journey. And they came up with this suggestion that we must use electronics in transmission of results. And here too, INEC has actually deployed that technology and had a fair share, you know, it's something that looks a bit more credible than previous elections. They had had it in some several other constituencies in the country. I'm very happy that INEC, spokesperson in the person of my brother, Mike, is here, is a guest in this particular program. And so you will get to hear from the Horsesmart what has been done by INEC by deployment of technology, you know, so far even when there was no legal backing. And so that was this arrival at the conclusion that, look, the best way is for us to allow INEC to transmit a result electronically, especially where it is practicable, where and when practicable. So INEC has this discretionary power, where there is network service, they will. Where there is no network service, they will use manual. That was what was agreed upon by the harmonized report of the Joint Committee on INEC. Unfortunately, when the matter came before the Senate last week, and that was I think at the 16th or 15th, somebody now moved the motion to amend. And what was amendment that INEC now that shouldn't be subjected to any other authority will say to be subjected to NCC and National Assembly, they need to hear from those two bodies before INEC can transmit result electronically. And we found that that is clearly unconstitutional. It doesn't have any room at all within our constitutional framework, because the law, the constitution itself has given such an enormous power on INEC to conduct election. And in doing that, they share their power with no other body or authority. So subjecting INEC now to NCC and then to National Assembly, who is a prospective party in an electoral process to be the one to approve before they can transmit result. It's clearly laughable. Something that I found out to be very disdainful. It's something that nobody should ever contemplate that our lawmakers will dissent so low in enacting law that they have valid, clearly valid, the provisions of the constitution. So that's where we have found ourselves. As to me, it's clearly cheating on the part of Nigerians who felt that we should move forward. We should be talking about e-voting, not even transmission of result only. We should now be talking about electronic voting because other smaller nations have actually gravitated towards technology in all the electoral processes. So why are we now going backwards? By saying, oh, we have only 50% or less than that percentage coverage. Whereas INEC, we have been told, even by INEC has been told before now, that we have over 90-something percent network coverage in the entire country. So it was a black weekend. It was a black weekend. But don't you think, I just want to play the devil's advocate here, just out of curiosity, do you not think that maybe the lawmakers took this stand because of the uncertainties that come with our electric power supply, the fact that you cannot really trust the connectivity, and that's why NCC was brought into the conversation in the first instance? Can we give them that benefit of doubt, or should we totally just throw out the bathwater with the baby in it? No, that is backward movement. The harmonized version. But isn't that our reality, doctor? I mean, how reliable is your connectivity? Just listen to me now. That is why the clause says, where and when practicable. That has been addressed anywhere there is no network. INEC will resolve to manual. The harmonized version says where and when practicable. They should transmit, but if they cannot see any network coverage in any area, then they have to resolve to manual. So that particular clause has addressed the issue of inadequacies of our basic telecom structures. It has addressed it. But now, subjecting INEC to NCC and to National Assembly, our National Assembly members take telecom experts in the first place. Who are they? They are members who are elected to run an act law. So what places them now in a better position now to be the one to give INEC the final approval before they can transmit results? It doesn't make any sense. So if you are playing the devil's advocate, are we not saying that National Assembly members now should be the one to determine when we have network in any environment before you can transmit it? It doesn't make sense. Now, so to me, the initial harmonized version has actually addressed our deficiencies with basic infrastructure in the country. I say where and when practicable, where and when practicable. That has addressed it. And so that amendment that violated the constitutional provision is clearly illegal and something that can be challenged. But I know that the president will not have sent to that amendment. The only good aspect of it is that the House of Reps have left a room for them to come back now and actually remove this particular embarrassment from that clause and agree that they must not violate the constitution because I know they will come up with something that is better and preferable to what has actually taken place last weekend. You sound very certain. Like you said, you know that the president will not accent to it. And you also say you're certain that the National Assembly of the House of Representatives would do something better. How does that win? They will harmonize because what happened last week was that there is no harmony in that particular passage of the bill. They all took different positions. So I think that within this week or maybe when they come back from their holiday, they should be able to harmonize their position and come up with something that does not violate the constitution. That's what I'm saying. And I think that the best option is for them to leave it the way it was couched whenever and wherever it is practical. Let INEC actually transmit a result electronically. I'm going to come back to you, Dr. So we talk about the politics of this particular act. But to you, Mr. Okoye, it's interesting because it was more like a sigh of relief for Nigerians when INEC spoke up about the fact that you are capable because it seemed like a convenient excuse coming from the National Assembly that INEC might not be able to gain connectivity or be able to have what they had prescribed earlier on before the tweak in the electoral act. But give us the reasons why and what you have cited to make you certain that you can actually transmit these results electronically. What has been the litmus test? Well, the Commission has been piloting different electronic solutions in the electoral process. And towards that particular angle, on the 28th day of March 2018, there was a technical committee meeting between the NCC, the Independent National Electoral Commission, and the various network operators. Now, at that particular meeting, NCC presented the cellular network coverage map for Nigeria. In both hard and soft copies of 2G, 3G, and 4G cellular network coverage maps of the country. And they displayed this. Now, after this display and after all the meetings, the consensus by all operators is that the requirements for the electronic transmission of results proposed by INEC is practicable. Indeed, MTN and ATL confirmed that they have jointly implemented similar solutions for JAM and for the Federal Iran Revenue Service. So this was in 2018. The issue had nothing to do with coverage. The network operators raised some concerns during that particular meeting. The first concern they raised was the issue of confidentiality, that they needed a high level of confidentiality in the operations, given the sensitivity of the issues. The second issue they raised was in relation to the commercial aspect of what they are doing, to the extent that there are some blind spots in Nigeria, where they have to make extra efforts to cover. The third issue they raised was that they needed a very good understanding, a deep understanding of INEC's processes and procedures. The fourth issue they raised relates to the issue of test running the processes and doing some level of validation. Why the fifth issue they raised was that they needed all the independent national electrical commission, the NCC, and all the telecom operators to sign what they call a non-disclosure agreement, to enable them to configure the processes and procedures to serve the purposes of the commission. So these were the concerns that were raised during that particular period. Now that we have moved further in relation to the processes and procedures, where we have since 2020, we have uploaded the results of pulling unit results into our resolving portal in 26 elections that we have conducted, from governorship elections to senatorial elections, House of Representatives elections and state assembly elections, and one councilorship election in the FCT. But these things are sometimes from the remote areas, from river line areas and from different areas. So what we are saying is that we have developed certain capacity to transmit election results in Nigeria. So I'm curious, yes, you have, because I really wanted to know what your testing grounds were or what made you this certain. But then you have not transmitted this result at the same pace if you were having a general elections. You were doing these transmissions for elections in certain places or by elections and governorships are just obviously in one catchment area, which is a state. But we're looking at a general election and we know how a general election is. So you're going to obviously be simultaneously transmitting results at almost the same time for particular locations. So there's going to be transmission on that network connectivity. If you haven't done it on that large scale, when are you going to as INEC be able to test run it? You know, you see, this particular commission does not rule out a particular solution just on the spot the moment. We have been test running and piloting different solutions for quite some time. And when we are doing pilots, we normally don't inform Nigeria that we are doing pilots because it's a pilot. So there's a possibility that in some of the elections that you have participated in that the commission was piloting different electronic solutions in relation to the electoral process. It is only when we are sure that our processes are robust, when we are sure that we have done test run and validation that we roll out and inform the Nigerian people. So we have piloted, we have uploaded results of pulling units from river eye areas, from very difficult areas in the river eye areas. We have piloted from difficult areas in Brown state and we have uploaded from almost all parts of the country. So we are sure and we are confident that we have the solution to some of these challenges. And the network operators have also assured us that what we have proposed is workable, is doable, is practicable. And we are confident that we can pull it through, even with a big election like the general election. And the cost of this is also going to be obviously higher than the usual. Does that also mean that the budget for INEX 2023 elections is going to be double what it was? Definitely. You see, what we are proposing is a package and has four components. And these are the electronic voting systems. The first component is electronic voter register, which the commission already has. The second component is electronic voting machine. The third component is electronic voter authentication. Why the fourth component is electronic transmission of resource. This is a component, this is a compact component. Now, if you buy electronic voting machines, the implication is that you can use it for two, three, or even for electoral cycles. And that reveals the point of printing ballot papers all the time. So initially, the cost will be high, but on the long run, you will see that it is more economical and it's more cost effective for the Federation. Concerns about imputing wrong numbers or wrong figures. And I mean, because it's electronically done, doesn't mean that it's above mistakes or, you know, malfunctions here and there. And we know the situation of the CAD reader, and we remember in 2019, if I'm not mistaken, or 2015, I beg your pardon, I think 2019 when President, former President Goodlock, Jonathan Card reader in his voting ward was, polling units was not working. Have all of these teething problems been addressed in its entirety? Or are we going to still see those issues here and then, hiccups that come, which also stopped the election from starting early and as soon as it should? Well, I will address two angles to the question. The first angle is that the electronic voting machine that the commission wants to introduce for the 2023 general election, we have a paper trail which will enable an audit in case there's any challenge relating to what has been transmitted from the polling unit to the Restoration Area Collision Center or from the Restoration Area Collision Center to the Local Government Collision Center. The second issue and I want to address is that technology is dynamic and what the commission is thinking is that we want broad powers to be given to the commission, broad powers to deepen the use of technology, broad powers to introduce relevant technology at a particular time. We do not want a situation where a particular electronic solution, a particular device will be written into the into the electoral act and that will create problems for us. So if you give us broad powers, we can improve and we can introduce relevant technology at any given time. The technology we want to use for the 2023 elections is a technology that we not only read the fingerprints, but also we read the fascias. So if we are unable to read their fingerprints, we can read their fascias. And the issue of accreditation challenges will be obviated. But let me say that the introduction of electronic transmission of results or the introduction of a solution that reads your fingerprints and your fascias does not mean that we will have eliminated all challenges to a electoral process. No, democracy is a work in progress and electoral process is a work in progress and we keep on improving with every given election and we keep on learning with every election we conduct. Okay, I'll come back to you. Let me go back to Dr O'Barney. Dr O'Barney, let's talk about the politics around this act that is supposed to, this bill that is supposed to become an act for us to be able to have free and credible elections in 2023. There have been so many stories about, let's talk about the Senate first. The fact that when it was time for voting, certain people had to use the bathroom, certain people were absent. And even people who governors and their constituents hoped would vote yes, voted no. Let's examine some of these senators and why they decided to take this stand. Okay, thank you very much. I say you want me to tell you of those that went to toilet when it was time for them to vote and those who claim to be progressives and then, right, in our very before, if it is the Bodaya, they were voting against, against the use of technology. I may not be able to analyze politically what really transpired other than that I know that those that voted against the use of technology allowing discretionary powers to INEC were mainly APC members. And I think they received instruction to do all that. I was really scared to hear that Dr. Ojo Zocano, who else from Iberia was not saying there is no network service in Iberia. The same thing with my brother from Bruno State, who is in charge of the Committee on Army, also saying there is no network in his own environment. But I know that these people do all manner of transaction electronically, including transfer of money, you know, using technology. So I see no reason why all of a sudden, suddenly there is no network virtually in every of these, their constituencies. But again, my lovely sister, this is issue of governance. I think that these guys, they should not in any way be very proud in announcing to the entire world that in 2021 we cannot in any way boast that we have adequate network coverage. As a nation, it's a governance issue. And so what we think that they should be able to address that issue and say, look, why don't we provide enough budget to add that, you know, whoever those service providers to ensure adequate coverage of network all over the country. It's a governance issue. So I don't see them being proud, telling the entire world, I don't have service in my own environment. I don't have network service in my own environment. It's not a thing we should clap for them. It's a thing that we should be ashamed of, you know, in telling the entire world. Whereas other smaller nations have actually, they are boasting of almost 100% network coverage in their own various countries. So I'm not happy with what actually transpired. So the politics of voting no and politics of voting yes, of course we had similar issue when PDP, they were in power. They also, you know, usually take decision that goes contrary to the, to the, to the desires of Nigerians. And I was seeing it now with APC also, because I know that was a open hearing before this bill now came to this stage where it is, where people made their contribution, majority of stakeholders submitted memo and then submitted papers and saying that this is what Nigerians require. These guys never came back to the consequences in order to actually hear. Well, you literally just took my question because I was going to ask that, where is the representation in all of this? Because these people are supposed to be a representation, representation on the floor, whether it's the higher upper house or the lower house. Yeah, I agree with you. They didn't come back to their various consequences in order to get the opinion of the people that elected them as to what they desire in this electoral amendment, that I appeal amendment that is presently going on, only for one of the people that engage in an argument on TVC and that is on Friday, one of the members of the, of the Senate who are supposed to be distinguished Senator Bashiru. I think he's a Chief Spokesperson. He was telling me that I need to go to court, that if I feel offended with that amendment that has actually been carried out, I should go to court. And I was telling him, I wouldn't elect you to go to house, in order, I mean to the Senate, in order to go and violate the Constitution, then ask me to go to court. That is not what we elected you to go and do. We elected you to go and do the right thing. And of course, you must take a feedback from us who have elected you. We don't just say, oh, because Mr. Bani is not elected, so he doesn't deserve to be here than others. All of us cannot be in the Senate, all of us cannot be in the House. We need to also give a feedback mechanism to those who have elected, this is what we want. That is how democracy works. So my take in all this is that I may not be in a position to actually analyze the political thing that took place and all that, but I think that the people who have elected these representatives are saying we want electronic transmission of result for now. We even want to gravitate towards using voting in our election nationally. We want to gravitate towards that. And these guys have no right to hold the hands of clock backwards. Now, if they do, we will actually not allow that to stand. We are ready to use all our last strength using the judicial intervention in order to see that this law does not stand the test of time if the president makes a mistake of assenting to it. We, I'm sorry to be less optimistic as you would want me to, but how, how, why would we hope that? Because we always say that we would do everything in our power to stop it. And half the time, we do nothing. And then, you know, it passes. We just scream and shout after a while. You know, we go back to, you know, same old, same old. But, but as a Nigerian, as someone who has a voting power, you have a voice because your vote is your voice. What has this whole drama field week into the weekend taught you or opened your eyes to as concerning 2023? It opens my eyes to the fact that these people are not actually bent on sanitizing the electoral process. And of course, the recruitment process, you know, is the starting point is getting our electoral system to be right. And the suggestion of stakeholders and those who are patriots, you know, in this country, they are feeling that let's reduce the level of human intervention in our electoral process and allow technology. It's not as if we solve all our problem 100% with the use of technology, but we begin to have some level of credibility and fairness in our electoral process if we begin to deploy technology in it. And I feel that the people that can do that is people who have elected now, the executive, the legislator and all of them who are in governance, you know, must try to, you know, make us make some level of movement in this electoral journey we have been backed upon. We know what happens when we allow manual system to be used, you know, issue of manipulation. Collation is an issue for us. It's not even the voting pattern in a system that is issued. It's issue when it comes to issue of collation of the result. After the result has been announced at each polling unit, getting those results now to the collation centers, you know, becomes an issue. People now falsify and do a manner of things. And we say let's now, you know, gravitate towards use of technology that will reduce the level of human intervention, you know, to the various minimum. But these guys are taking us back. So my take is that from the look of things, these guys are not bent on giving us fair and free election in 2023. And I think that Nigerians must do something to really show their disapproval to taking us back was as a nation. That is what I think that should happen. By making sure that they said no. And when we said no, those who have elected should listen to us. And if they fail to listen to us, then Nigerians must take some more positive reaction that will make those to be who are in government to really know that we cannot go ahead. It can be business as usual. And that is reality. Okay. And back to you, Mr. Koye, because we have to wrap this up. Yes, the National Assembly, the House of Representatives is on recess. They will come back because they seem to have the last nail. Let's hope it's not a nail per se. But they will have to have the last say as to what direction that this bill goes. What would be your prayer to the House of Representatives in terms of what you need to get your elections in 2023 to be better? Of course, there are going to be several other elections before the 2023. But what do you need to make sure that 2023 is general election? It's way better than every other one we've had. Yes, we always say, oh, when we look back at the elections, it could have been a lot better. But what do we do to raise the bar? And what would be your prayer to the House of Representatives? Well, I believe that both houses will come back and harmonize their report. And what we are saying is that the Commission should be giving broad powers to deploy technology in the electoral process. And that these powers that should be given to the Commission should be in consonance and in conformity with constitutional provisions and constitutional dictates. And that we will keep on improving with every election. There's a possibility that we may not get everything right. But this particular Commission is committed to deepening the use of technology in the electoral process and also restoring the confidence of our people in the electoral process. So we pray that we should be giving broad powers to deploy technology in the electoral process and also giving power that are not in conflict with the powers already granted to the Commission by the Constitution. And that is our prayer. Well, thank you very much. First, as a courier is Ina Commissioner on voter education. And of course, Dr. Mundu Bani is a legal practitioner. Thank you, gentlemen, for speaking with us. We appreciate it. Thank you for your notes. All right, great. Well, after educating you on, you know, the bill, let's move on to other political matters. Yes, an alleged agreement, a gentleman's agreement that tells us who President Buhari should have handed over to. But what is a gentleman's agreement if it's not written or signed on? We'll be right back after the break.