 Hello. Welcome to this session. We will have a sit-along. Okay, talking about pre-software in the third world. Okay, maybe I should first say my name properly. It's Sikrelo Mtsongo. So you get a click there. I know it's a bit difficult for many, but it's fine. You can call it anyhow I told you. So we're going to just talk briefly about the challenges of using Debian and maybe Linux as a whole. In the third world, I'm going to say developing nations. Yeah, it doesn't mean anything to me. So yeah, maybe in the context of Africa at least, I'll only talk about one developing country. That being Switzerland, where I'm from myself, maybe just a background of Switzerland. Switzerland is a small country, probably the smallest in Africa. I don't remember that one too well. And we are right between South Africa and Mozambique. I think 80% of the board I shared with South Africa and 20% with Mozambique. I know some even here in South Africa sometimes consider us to be part of a province. That's not the case. Things are completely different on the other side. When it comes to the economy, things are not going so well because apparently there is 40% unemployment rate. Part of the problem is that the country depends a lot on agriculture, which is of course unreliable. I think maybe if you consider things like global warming and so on. Then we also have a problem with HIV in the country. When we come to telecommunications, again, we have a problem there. First of all, there's only one mobile network operator for the last 18 years. And as a result, data prices are quite high. Much higher than many other countries in Africa because the one mobile network operator is enjoying a monopoly. When it comes to maybe broadband and so on, again, we have a bit of a problem there. There is some sort of monopoly there, although I think now there are about five ISPs in the country. But again, a large amount of the population doesn't have access to a landline telephone. So basically no broadband as a result. Now to the main point of the talk, why would such a place, for example, benefit from using Debian or Linux, any other version maybe? We've already mentioned that a large part of the population is, I'll say, maybe is pregnant financially. So first of all, just a cost issue. It would be very desirable for more people in Switzerland, in this case, to use Linux. Most people are using proprietary systems and you may start to wonder how are they able to afford that now. The truth of the matter is that most of them actually don't. That means piracy basically. Another reason why it would be very nice to adopt Linux in such a place is also because Linux has, over the years, proved itself to be very robust. So once you have the system in place, doesn't need too much maintenance afterwards. I found that to be the case on my own use of Debian. And of course there's a big business built up around providing technical support. So if you've got a system that's very stable, you can actually save a lot in the long run because now you don't have too many things that are likely to go wrong and need you to pay support for. Again, since many people might not be able to afford the latest computer that's available or a laptop and so on, Linux comes in again because that would mean they can use Linux on, I'll say, their ancient computers because in general the hardware requirements are much lower than with other proprietary operating systems that people are using. In my case, for example, I've been able to encourage a few friends who were basically at a loss when Windows XP lost support. So they were not so sure what to do now because no other operating system could work on the machines they had. I'm happy that I was able to at least get them to use Linux at that point. Just an interesting fact, although in general most people are not using Linux, but when I look on Facebook, which is what most people use to communicate in Switzerland, I notice that there is some interest in Kali Linux. I'm not sure why, but it looks like it's definitely people who are interested in hacking. I don't know exactly what they want to hack. So maybe there is a bit of interest coming up. So now we can say that Linux would be very good for Switzerland, but then why is that not the case? I've thought about it and I came up with five reasons, but of course there may be more than these. The first one is just simply what you are used to. So for the average person, when you just mentioned the word computer, in his mind he's already seeing Windows, so much that if you give him a Linux computer, the first question you're going to get is going to be, where is the start button? Because that's what a computer means for many people. They don't realize that it's just an operating system and you can put on any other operating system. The other problem or challenge is that many people are reluctant to learn something new. They may feel that Linux, for example, is for big or people who know a lot and therefore I'm an average person, it's not for me. This one is one problem that's maybe a bit difficult because even if you actually show them what you are able to do, but they still feel like, yes, you are able to do it because you know something and I don't. And there's no, the level of interest to invest time in learning new things is maybe close to non-existent. That's unfortunate. But then of course there are a few people who do know about it. They know about it maybe through work or through other friends who use it and so on. Now the biggest challenge that even if you are interested, you definitely run into this one in Switzerland, is problem with internet access because unfortunately Linux does kind of need you to have access to the internet. From the point of downloading it, getting it onto your machine and also installing any other program that you may want to use. In my case, for example, when I started to use Debian, I had to order a CD, which I had to order from South Africa because there's no distributize. Well, there wasn't at the time. And then, well at least I ordered a DVD so there were a lot of packages in there. So I can just imagine what would have been the case if I had ordered a CD and then it would be next to impossible to install something else. Even if you do try and download packages manually, your dev packages, we all know that you can't just download a dev package and say, I've got this game now because you're still going to need other dependencies that may not be on your system. So package dependencies, I think, are the next big problem that we have because on the other side, they may find that it's easier for them. He just goes onto some website, he downloads an exe and he's ready to start doing what he needs to do. That's not the case here in Linux. Lastly, oh yes, you may add. My name is Ritesh. I come from India. So we're not like the way described. The internet status in our country has improved. But around 10 years ago, I had a similar problem like you, like we didn't have internet connection. And I wanted to use Debian on my home machine where I did not have internet and still be able to enjoy using app get update and upgrade and things like that. So back then I wrote a software for Debian. It's called app offline. The idea is that your Debian machines may not have internet, but you could still be able to install packages, the dependencies, update them and upgrade them. So maybe what we can do is after the talk, when you have time, I could run you through the entire process and then you can take it back to your country and help more people. Yes, thanks very much. Actually, because I've also had a chance to talk to a few others here, they did mention it and yes, it sounds like a good solution to the problem. The last challenge that's there, but I don't know, is those who do happen to know about Linux, how to use it and so on, they are also very reluctant to tell others or to help them because it's two ways. First of all, he doesn't want to get the other person into Linux because now I've got to support the other person. He has problems, now it's my problem. But the other thing is maybe the other person actually does have interest, but again, since maybe I know more than he does, it means I can get money now out of him. If he has a problem, he must call me and I help him. So that's one of the challenges that affect the use of Linux and outside Debian. So then, possible solutions. The first one I think has already been mentioned and I must say I didn't know about it before, but someone mentioned it, I think when we were taking the high care study. So that sounds like a very good solution. Of course, in my case, I got to Debian through a DVD I ordered the DVD through, I think on Debian.org there is a page for DVD vendors. I was a little bit shocked, sad maybe, that when I checked it recently, the distributor that was there for South Africa is gone. It's no longer there. And actually, there's no longer any official distributor in Africa as a whole. That's a little bit sad. But I think DVDs and CDs are one of those ways. And then one of the other developments that's going on, I think in the Linux world, there's stuff like Flatpak and other things. Maybe they will help us in the future. I don't know if Debian will use them. I don't even know yet how useful they are. But when you just browse through, it sounds like they will be useful. And then, of course, one of the other solutions is obviously going to be more, maybe after education, where those who are in the know, they enlighten others. Maybe in the schools and universities, maybe some more focus has to be given to that. Of course, some of it might be dependent on governments and so on. Myself, what am I willing to do? I am willing to invite more friends into Linux, Debian particularly because that's what I've been using myself for, I think since 2012. And I'm currently living in South Africa. If I do go back to Switzerland, I think it's highly possible. I would like to at least become a DVD vendor and at least be able to share with those who are interested. I think that's basically it, maybe if there are more questions. Do you have ADSL in Switzerland and what proportion of the population have access to that? There is ADSL in Switzerland. I think the fastest package you can get is 5 Mbps. Wait, no, that's for companies. The fastest you can get at home is 2 Mbps. The percentage of the population that's got it less than 10%. Because it does depend on you having a telephone line. The vast majority of people don't have it. It doesn't look like it's a situation that's going to change very soon. Thanks. Frustratingly, South Africa sits with much of the same problems. But what we have realized is a lot of public libraries have good internet. But I don't know if people are actually using those resources. Do you have any ideas about what else we could do to improve this on a continent level other than just having local user groups that connect directly with each other? I think that's difficult. Unfortunately, it also does go as far as our governments. For example, I don't know how much it is here in South Africa. But I can tell you now that in Switzerland there's also too much political involvement in these things which now causes a bit of a problem. For example, one of the companies, the company that provides your broadband and so on, a few years ago, maybe in 2013-14, they tried to provide internet via wireless. But now the mobile network operator had problems with that for the drone outlaw and in the end the project had to be stopped. The data rates were much better there and I think lots of people were trying to move into that. But again, that's also because there is a lot of political involvement with the mobile network operator and also with the wired one. It just becomes a mess in the end. I would like to start going back to Bernal's idea. Well, I got an experience from maybe 10 years ago that I did some trip to Bolivia which is among the poorest countries in Latin America. And I was surprised at first at the amount of internet cafes they had because they had a very similar situation to what you described. Wired phones at home were very hard to get and wireless and cellular coverage was way less than what it is today and there's a very large percentage of their population that have migrated to other countries. So, well, there was a very big business like attraction, right? To have many people operating internet cafes because lots of the population used them. I don't know how it has changed now that cellular networks have changed that landscape, but it adds to the ideas of public libraries. Yeah, definitely those are ideas that I'll also take home. I don't really know a library that's got internet in Switzerland though. I come from Switzerland, which is probably at the total other end of the spectrum which brings me to some questions. You mentioned that the internet connectivity itself is complicated but do you have problems having good hardware because Europe has this tradition, debatable tradition to send old cars to Africa, for example. Would it be something interesting to have some sort of network to get old computers to Africa? Or do you think old computers are not interesting and you'd rather have funding or new computers? And maybe an idea worth discussing would be some sort of solidarity network within Debian or within Linux at large saying if you have a computer that you can no longer make use of and is no longer powerful, then maybe someone in Africa who wants to be user or developer ideally could make use of that. Is that something interesting? Yes, I think it is. Actually, one of the points here was that I think Linux is better for the average person partly because at least you can still afford to run basically a new Linux on your very old machine. So there is, for example, I think in one of the computer groups for Switzerland, there is someone in the UK who somehow managed to get a few and he was wondering if you could send them to Switzerland and maybe get people going. Of course, it's something that just came up like this week. I don't know how far he's going to be able to go with it but yes, I think old hardware might not be for old. We have more questions and time and it has just reminded me, I have to stick to a schedule so I will do that. So thank you very much. I will try to pronounce your name correctly but I know, please understand, the clicking sounds are not in my phoneme vocabulary. I think that was very good. I just wanted to also say I would like to thank Debian and maybe also the Cape Town organizing team for arranging that Debian come here because it's the first time for me and I don't think I would have been able to attend it otherwise.