 All right. Welcome back to Red Man Group episode number 35. We have a brand new panel and a new topic on this one. We're going to hop into Red Pill Hacks, and we're not talking about like, you know, hacking your way into the Red Pill. What we're talking about is hacks, people that don't know what they're talking about, that like to talk about stuff that we talk about. Let me introduce you to our current panel. To my left, I'll start with Alan Roger Curry of Mode One, an alumni speaker of the 21 convention. Had a great talk at this event this past weekend. Beside him, we've got Ed Latimore. Ed, what's your website, by the way? edlatimore.com. edlatimore.com, a former heavyweight boxer, physics graduate, just all-around dope guy. Like he's just an awesome guy to hang around with this this past weekend. Another amazing speaker. Right beside me, we've got Ivan Throne. He just put out a book called The Nine Laws. Best place to find you, Ivan is on Twitter. Best place to find you is on Twitter. Yes. Best place to find me on Twitter would be at Ivan Throne. At Ivan Throne. Yeah. So Ivan's deaf. So we're going to have Charlie in tech basically type him all the questions that need to come up that he needs to read. So you'll see him reading down. We're probably going to have to tilt to talk to Ivan when we answer because he's got to read lips. Beside me to my right, I've got Roland Tomasi, the rational male, a regular panelist of the Red Man Group. Beside him, we've got Jack Donovan. He then, a man from Start the World. Follow him on Instagram. I think it's probably the coolest place to see what he's up to. He's a really cool guy, great author. If you haven't checked out The Way of Man or Becoming a Barbarian, what's your newest piece? A more complete piece. A more complete piece. I haven't read it yet, but I've got a copy of the book. Definitely going to check it out. And then beside Jack, we've got Tanner Guzzi, a style expert, masculine style. Is there a website you want to mention? Yeah, masculine style or appearanceofpower.com. Let's check out the book. Yeah. Yeah, he's got a great book too. So I got to copy that. I'm going to check that as well. All right, gentlemen, we started the last broadcast asking the panelists what their experiences were like on the 21 convention. So let's start with Alan Roger Curry. What was your aha moment, big takeaway? What was your weekend like? Always been great. It's been excellent. Got a chance to converse with a lot of guys from a lot of different places, not only here in the States, but a lot internationally. And they were asking me some great questions. And I think I gave them some great answers. But yeah, just listening to all the speakers, some I heard last year, I thought they were great, but they were even better this year. Then there were some new additional speakers that I thought delivered presentations that resonated with the audience in a great way. So that's just been fantastic. Anthony is just, I told George during my report interview, he raised the game this year. He keeps rising to another level. He's next level focus and I've just enjoyed. It's been a gratifying experience. Cool. Ed Latimer. Man, so many takeaways from this weekend. The big one for me personally, before I get to everyone else is that personally just seeing people who I've read the work and admired it from afar. The first thing I did, I ran up the island and I said, man, I read your book. Whoa. And I told him and I downloaded it illegally when I read it like 10 years ago. So I had to buy a copy of the date to show my love, man. But his work, when I read that I was going through a rough time in a transitional period in my relationships with women and he helped me out and getting to meet Rollo in person. For example, I read all his work. I'm a big fan of his books and his website. So to me to be around these guys to feel like, oh, okay, you know, I really found some people who really think the way I think and I'm going after the world the way I go after the world, that's been the best part for me. The next great thing is seeing the response of all these people who read my work or read other people's work and they've got so many questions and just to see that I'm having an impact on the world. I forgot to mention your book. It was not caring what other people think is a superpower and then colon insights from a heavyweight boxer. Yeah, it's been a good seller. But yeah, yeah, it has. Thank goodness. But that's been cool. And the most surprising aspect because I think people have this idea maybe we'll get into that today. It's a bit of an auxiliary point. People have this idea of what red pill is and anything. We're a bunch of angry guys or whatever. But people got speakers are here with their wives, guys are here with their sons. It really is a reclaiming of what is a masculine directive and what we want to go in the future and not just be phased out, not be zeroed out, but have a voice for for men in the future. So I've had a great experience to sum that up. And I'm really looking forward to being back here next year. Cool. Did you get Charlie's? Sure. Now, the 21 convention has really been a the 21 convention has really been a phenomenal experience. And what's so powerfully struck me is that each of the speakers are so unique. They're so distinct. There's not one cookie cutter caricature of masculinity or all different. All of the speakers have their own story and they're all going all the way. They're not holding back. They're not trying to play it safe with their expression of who they are as a man, what they believe, what they stand for, what they teach, what they do. And you can see the participants just soaking up all of these types and options and choices. If you go all the way, you can take your individual sense of being a man, being a person, being an individual, and just expand that to the fullest extent that you can. Find your own path and we're here to throw your hopes and show you how to get there. Yeah, exactly. I've already commented in the first session. So has Rollo. So we'll pass it over to Jack Donovan. So what's your experience been like this past weekend? Overall, I'd like the 21 convention just because it tends to be very positive. Like I said, it's, you know, instead of being, you know, an angry thing, like a lot of people think it's going to be, it's really about changing men's lives for the better. And I think a lot of people here come here looking for something and looking for an answer. And I hope a lot of them found it. And as far as this year, I spoke last year, obviously, and as everyone has said, it's like, you know, last year only doubled. You know, it's just been a really good experience. Yeah. Tanner? I think the biggest staha for me, and this is my third year coming out. So I've kind of seen it change quite a bit is just how much the caliber of the attendees has improved. Guys are in better shape. They walk better. They're more confident. They're dressed better, which is awesome because a lot of times you go to conferences and it's just an exercise in futility because the guys get the dopamine drip. It's like, yeah, I came and I learned. And then they go back to their normal lives two weeks later. But to come back and see a lot of these guys who have come back or a lot of you guys who are coming in, you can see that they're, they're actually applying these principles. They're actually becoming better versions of themselves. And they're still hungry to come and do more. It's not just like, well, I'm in better shape and I'm better dressed and I'm more confident than everybody else around me. So I've arrived, but they still want to continue to do more. I love being around other men like that. I think it's so, it's so invigorating. Normally, we only get that kind of amongst us as speakers, but to feel like the attendees are so significantly stepping up their game. I mean, it's, it's a peer group and it's, it's awesome. So it's been really fun to be around that this year. Awesome. So today's topic in this broadcast is going to be on red pill hacks. Guys that talk a talk, but don't really walk the walk or they don't really know what they're talking about. I want to pass it over to Rolo because he's kind of got a bit more of an insight on it. I'm actually kind of glad I got the panel I did for this one now. It'll be really easy for me to just sit here and just badmouth a bunch of different, you know, alternative, you know, sites for our organizations, I should say, for masculinity. But I'm not going to do that. What I'm going to do instead is I'm going to say that there are other organizations out there. Some of them are a little bit more focused on like this power positive thinking mantra that's going out like more like a Tony Robbins kind of thing where that is starting to appeal to say the lost boys generation. Like I gave him in my speech, I was talking about how there's a generation of men right now, young men who are really hungry for this kind of stuff. They were, they're looking to like someone like Jordan Peterson to say, oh, he's the father that I never had. And I look at what he's doing and some of it's very positive in another aspects of it. I'm kind of like, does he even really know what he's talking about? And then I see other organizations such as like, I think it's called we are man enough or something like that. And I, one of the reasons I want to talk about this is because when I see those guys and they're getting together and really what they're doing is just sort of parroting back the same mantra about toxic masculinity and how can we, how can we be better men by being more appropriate or being more, more aligning with the feminine imperative? And it seems like they are. Yeah, that's a weird dichotomy like how do you become a better man by becoming more feminine, right? Yes, exactly. And so it's this lost boys generation right now. And we're seeing a lot of people kind of coming out of the woodwork to sort of exploit that as like this, this niche market right now. And I don't think that this organization, what we do here at the 21 convention is anything remotely like that. I mean, I understand that we're talking to that, that segment of society. But it seems to me like we have a much broader, certainly a much broader, more diverse panel of guys here. And we're all on board with a, an idea about red pill from the perspective that we're going to embrace a conventional masculinity, which I got from this guy right here. And I kind of almost want to start with you because when I was reading, becoming a barbarian, and in the very first part of that, of that book, you were talking about how masculinity requires adversity, how it requires conflict, how it requires men sometimes competing and going head to head with each other and sometimes beating the shit out of each other. And how we, how we grow right now and how we, we develop in a conventionally masculine sense. I think that a lot of people don't know what that is. And so maybe like the first thing to talk about here is what really defines conventional masculinity. What is it that we can, we can offer here that nobody else offers? Because there's a lot of organizations that are doing it. There's a good man project. There's real social dynamics. They're trying to get into that power of positive thinking thing. So they want to sort of build, build on to whatever it is that they had before and sort of go into these rah-rah pep rally kind of scenes with their, with their own following. But I don't see much in there. I see much more, much more substance in this organization and in 21 convention than I do in anything else. But I just wanted to kind of get you guys' ideas as to what do you, what do you see as conventional masculine masculinity? Because right now, so many of these guys are either, they think that masculinity is ridiculous or they think that it is confusing or they think that it is something that is subjective that they can define for themselves, which of course, what happens is once they do that, they become subject to the outside influences of the feminine imperative that comes in and tells them, oh, well, here's what you should be. Here's how a man should be. So I kind of want to start off with just saying, what do you consider a conventionally masculine man? I just want to hit on the attributes of what we can universally call masculine because right now, women will say, well, I'm, you know, they want, we want to masculinize women. So they will say that, well, I want to be, I want to be more like a man and we feminize boys and we masculineized girls right now. And part of that process is keeping men confused about what masculinity really is. And so I just want to see if we can maybe talk about just some aspects of what are universally masculine traits and characteristics. Did you get that either? Yeah. Well, you know, listening while a hot dog, you know, how do we define that? And we have things out there like a good man project that you mentioned on some of these other groups that are trying to push up purple pill mass, you know, really occurred to me what you define as masculine as a man, you know, you have a lot of your own shop. That's very true. But you know what occurred to me when I see these purple pill or halfway bodies of knowledge or groups or organizations doing, they're still trying to get mommy's approval. And then that being men, right? A man does not, a man does not, who is leading his family, who's leading his wife, who's leading his children, who's building a business or maybe working for an employer doing the best he can is not doing it for mommy's approval. That sounds, that sounds like reclaiming authority. It's not on his radar. Yeah. And to me, that's the, the giant pitfall of some of these purple pill, so to speak groups, they don't want to go all the way. They will not take that final step of being a man. So to me, how do we define that? A man goes all the way. And he owns it. Let's throw it over to Jack because this is kind of your wheelhouse, brother. This is definitely your wheelhouse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks for setting up. Yeah. I mean, first of all, I think it's really important as much as people talk about women in a conference like this. And I mentioned to someone, I mean, a lot of the talk actually is about women and they're important important part of a man's life. But at the same time, a woman can't define masculinity for you. And that's, that's really, really important. And, you know, whether it's groups of women like feminists or whatever, I think men actually define masculinity. And, you know, obviously my book, The Way of Men was about trying to find that definition because as you said, there are so many people trying to define it for men that if they don't have that basis, to really this grounding in what they actually are sure that masculinity is, they can be easily like led astray or confused, whether it's by advertisers or feminists or what have you. So my thesis with The Way of Men was really that The Way of Men is the way of the gang and that actually it's groups of men that select each other. And we're actually wired for group selection. And that, you know, being, it's kind of like a sports team, you know, like other men approve of you, you know, what are the qualities that they see in you that make you more masculine to other men? They also also are the same qualities that obviously women see as masculine. But I think we define it first by what men see each other. And, you know, with The Way of Men, I went through, you know, a lot of like evolutionary psychology and then also looked at feminism and looked at cultures all around the world. And, you know, a point that I made in that book was, you know, there's a difference between being good at being a man and being a good man. And a lot of these, you know, like the Good Man project, obviously, is about being a good man, which, you know, sometimes it's like being a good boy, like being a good slave, being a good boy, doing what you're told. And, you know, that's all cultural. And I wanted to get away from something cultural and I think that being good at being a man, you don't have to be a good man to be good at being a man. You can absolutely be a terrible human being and still be pretty manly. You know, I don't like everybody's like, well, he's not a man because he, you know, did something bad or stole something. And personally, I think, you know, if that guy was coming down the street and I had to take him or one of these, you know, like male feminists and this bad guy who's done a whole bunch of terrible things, but he carries himself in a certain way and he's a little bit threatening. And, you know, he looks like he would be ready to take action. Doesn't matter if he's an amoral person. He's still manlier than the guy wearing the unisex outfit. And, you know, like pink pussy feeling sassy, you know, the word. Yeah, yeah, feminist ally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that that's, I think that that it's an amoral thing. And then, you know, as a any culture, you know, you know, all of us come from different backgrounds and would have our own cultural definition about what makes a good man. But I think it's really important to look at those basic qualities and always and everywhere. You know, there is no culture that it's like, you know, it's more masculine to be weaker. That's just never true. Yeah. And all throughout human history, never true. The same thing with, you know, courage. Like it's more, it's more masculine for a man to be fearful and retiring. That's that's not real. That's never happened in history. That's we've never thought of each other that way. You know, good men are incompetent. Like that's never happened. You know, like that. And competency is I would say, masculine. It's a master of trade. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's again, how we judge each other. I mean, if you weren't strong or courageous, but you have a lot of useful skills, man value that. And that's really important. And so, you know, the virtues that I came up with, and I think that they come from an evolutionary perspective, our strength, courage, mastery and honor, which is honor is I think just caring about your reputation with other men. Because, you know, you can't really be trusted in a group, if you don't care about the opinion of the other people in that group. That doesn't mean I mean, in the modern world that includes the entire globe, and you can't possibly care. And you shouldn't about what everybody in the world thinks of you. But I think you have to find your peers. You know, so that I think that I always say it's masculine and what the root of that is comes from. You know, if art this building was surrounded, I would say, or zombies or whatever. And we had to pick each other real fast. Well, I think I want it would add to help me. And I think, you know, we could take some zombies and then like, you know, like, I mean, that's the first thing you're going to think of. You're going to like, who's capable of doing this? And I think that that's basic and human. And, you know, in an emergency, we would all do the exact same thing. And I think those values are rooted there. And I think if you if you start from that place, these things that have always been masculine, you know, that can be your true north. Let's throw it over to Ed. Here we go. I mean, I mean, like you spend a lot of time beating on people, right? So not too much anymore, but I'm listening to this. And the first thing I think of with these hacks is how pussy whipped everyone has kind of gotten because like you said, only other men can decide what is masculine. And and we all want women. That's like, you know, our drive. And we take the most efficient route to get there. And many, many would make many cases, not all cases. So if you have a group of women that are trying to decide that that you want to be with and they get to decide who you are, and you give them that power, because you feel like we let them decide that this trade is good or that trade is good, then I have a much better chance of getting with that woman. Right? It's like Donovan was saying, you know, she's still not going to sleep with you. That that's where that is rooted in this idea that if I, if I trade, if I'm a trader, if I go against what I believe, or even if I was never taught, if I let them decide what is masculine, then perhaps they will give me a good grade and they will let me, you know, pass the class, so to speak. And that's how we get all these, these hacks, these guys, I really think they, I don't even think they mean well, I think I genuinely believe they're misguided. I think their whole goal at some point was to gain the favor of women. And why were they one of that favor, you know, we can get into that, but, but I think it all comes back down to, you know, that's what we want. We want to reproduce and survive and that's a way to do it, gain the favor of women since they help us reproduce. And that's so important that they will give up, they will co-sign on traits that are not masculine on, on lifestyles and activities and behaviors that do not further the male objective and then try to come back and tell other men this is the way to behave. And the whole movement gets co-signed and switched out. And all of a sudden you get guys trying to tell other guys, but like the arguments between men on what is, what is, before we even get the red pill, what is masculinity? You know, we shouldn't, that's not an argument. That's, that should be a thing, a group of guys get together and go, okay, well, either either it holds water or it doesn't, either we can test it or we can't. And instead we are, we have groups that are letting other women decide. Make it subjective. Make it subjective because if you make it subjective, if you keep moving the goalposts, you know, everyone's a winner. Everyone's a winner. Everyone's a man. But they don't want to hear that because part of being a man is dealing with, I mean, I was thinking of all my little, you know, traits that were put under the umbrella of masculinity. And part of being a man is you have to accept the negative. You have to accept that things are going to be difficult and things are going to be challenging. And sometimes it's not going to go your way. Many times it's not going to go your way. You're going to come, you're going to measure yourself and find out, you know, you don't, you don't weigh enough. You have to get your weight up as we say. And it's not, it's not good. A lot of these guys don't want to eat that. They want a subjective assessment of their ability so they can just move and decide who they are. So, yeah. All right. I'm going to put it to Alan Roger Curry. He's, you know, he's been around, I mean, he's one of the panel elders, right? Like, dude, like, you know, you've seen a lot. So I mean, how, you know, how do things look to you for the subject, you know, with all these hacks out there? I'm glad I got all you guys. This is great. I mean, you see a lot of hacks and you're not afraid to call them out on it. Like you, like you'll go on a rant. Like I've seen you do it. Yeah. I'm legendary for my YouTube rant. Yeah. It's challenging for young guys coming up today because you have corporate America that knows that women purchase more consumer goods and services on average than men do. Media and entertainment industry knows that women buy more movie tickets and watch more TV shows and soap operas than men do. They also make all the big buying decisions too when it comes to household decisions. Primary consumers buying, you know, buying the house, buying the car. Exactly. So what has happened in this society today is that women have essentially said, well, we spend in all this money. We want to be able to influence how men behave towards us. And they have allies in corporate America, male allies, in media and entertainment. And you got movies and TV shows projecting us as idiots. Somebody mentioned competency, incompetent, pussy whipped guys. That's not real. That's fiction. But women want fiction to be real. They want to present that as if it's real. Not all women. You have exceptions, of course. But then you have, I don't want to pick on single moms, but you got a lot of single mothers coddling kids. I was, my father allowed my mother to coddle me to maybe eight, nine. He was basically like, that's going to stop. I'm taking over. My dad, you know, if I bruised my knee, my mom might have been there to, you know, kiss me on the cheek and say, but my father was like, hey, son, you're going to have unexpected episodes of adversity come your way. You're going to have threats come your way. You're going to have challenges come your way. So everything about you has to deal with being prepared for that. Prepare for that. Cause this is a game, you know, in a football game, you don't get to quit in the middle of the third quarter. You got to play the game out. But I mentioned in my presentation, we've, we've had some big name guys, they quit. And it's because this society is, you're raising coddled men, which translates into weak men who can't handle challenges, who can't handle unexpected episodes of adversity and allowing women, I see all these, these memes on social media. A real man cooks dinner for his wife. A real man brings flowers every night. You want to go a little deeper on that one? I made, I made, I made a promise to myself. I said, I'm going to be PG 13 for this, this, this real man. I got someone of a potty mouth. You can still swear at PG 13. But uh, so yeah, I don't, I don't want to get too long-winded, but yeah, man should number one, as everyone has said, only man can define who men are. So that's the masculine trait right there, is to say to women either with words or just even with a facial expression when they try to define us. No, no. A man knows who he is. And here's, here's the trick though. Here's the trick. Women will tell in my line of work, I tell so many of my clients, women will say to a guy, I want you to be this, this and this, basically the proverbial nice guy. And then the guy makes all these changes to his behavior, all these modification and adjustments to his behavior. And then guess what? They say, you know what? I'm not feeling any romantic or sexual sparks with you anymore. I mean, you're a great guy. You're going to make some other woman a great husband and boyfriend, but I love you, but I'm not in love. Yeah. It's like, it's like Carl's, you know, Carl calls it the pacification or the beta, the betaization by a thousand concessions. And it starts with, put your white socks in the white hamper and your colored socks in the colored hamper. And it ends with, let's go vegan and have an open relationship. Yeah. So you heard me say in my presentation, this thing I use with the puppy dog. A lot of women, they want these puppy dogs that they're not sexually attracted to. But I'll end on this. I tell guys, using the dog metaphor, at least show your teeth, at least growl, bark. So let's throw it over to Tanner. And then I guess Roland, I'll top up on that. So I think one of the things that can kind of get lost in this, and Ivan did a really good job bringing it up is that I think so often we, we do, I'll probably in trouble for this, but we even see this within the red pill community where it may not be that we're seeking women's approval by going through what they tell us is the right way to do it. But it's still that the God we worship is sex. It's this idea that I'm going to be a man so that I can get laid. And that, that still is worshiping the feminine or worshiping sex as a God. And that's, that doesn't work. That's not within the tactical virtues of masculinity. Man has never been defined by his access to women. That's always been a benefit or a way to reinforce or ratify men who have been masculine, but sexual access has never been a way to define masculinity. And so I think that we need to be careful with in our community and guys who come in and, and they don't take this idea of pedestalization of the one woman and convert it into pedestalization of women or sex or anything else. Because when you have access to good sex and as much as you want it, you either realize it's like, well, I've been sold a bill of goods because I'm still not totally fulfilled than the other things that I want to do. Or you recognize that there's a whole lot more to life than just that. And so I think it's so important that we as men recognize that there's more than just our relationships with women that actually go into what it means to be a man. And we have to strive for more than just either the quantity or the quality of sex that we may be lacking when we first stumble into this community. Yeah. You know, we think about the great men of history at the top of the list of the, that one got laid. Yeah. Like that's not the quality that you, and he wasn't defined by that. Yeah. It wasn't great because he got laid. Yeah. Yeah. You know, if you don't mind, I want to quickly follow up. It's funny Tanner, because in my book, mode one in chapter one, so many people who usually people haven't read it yet, they say, Oh man, I want to read more one because I want to get laid. I want to get laid. And I probably unintentionally have given off that impression. But one thing I made clear in chapter one of my book mode one is that this book was not written with the primary objective of helping you get laid. I say getting laid will be the fringe benefit. Yes. That would be the frosting on the cake of BMR one. But I'm, I'm challenging man to verbally communicate their thoughts, opinions, desires, interests and intentions in a way that's masculine. That's not, you know, that's unapologetic, not politically correct. And I basically say, if you learn and adopt that style of verbal communication, women will become intrigued by you because they know you own yourself. You own your manhood. You own your masculinity. So that was very important. Well, yeah, because a lot of guys, they do, they conflate that because well, your guys say stuff like, well, yeah, you don't make your woman, your mission, you have your mission, but then secretly and suddenly in the back of their heads, it's still getting late as the mission, right? And that can't, that can't be the mission, whether it's conscious or subconscious, you have to have a bigger mission. So I love that that's how you start because it is, it's bigger than that. Yeah, I want to head on the apologetic thing because that's what I was going to mention. It's like, you know, a really good example of how to do it here a couple of nights ago. He's telling me about these, you know, the woes, he's kind of got like oneitis for this girl that he broke up with that he saw for a while. And he did like the kiss of death that a lot of guys do. It's like, you know, they break up and then he writes a note and he emails it to her, you know, for some guys, a handwritten note. I've done the handwritten note. You know, he did the email and it's like, once you send it, that shit's gone. Thank God, you know, the handwritten note, you can read it afterwards and crumpled up or burn it or something like that and get rid of it and not look like an idiot. But guys are always apologizing. And that's not a, that's not a masculine trait. I mean, you know, apologizing for being a man, for being who you are, that's not masculine. That's weak. You know, you need to apologize at some points in your life. I mean, you've got a few saris you can use, but I think men overuse the word sorry far too often. Right. Very much. I think there's even a difference between an emotive apology and an apology, because my wife and I had something that came, I remember the details of what it was, but I was in the wrong. You know, when she's pregnant, so she's even more emotionally vulnerable and, and I could have been crooning and emotive and oh, I'm so sorry. I can't believe I hurt you. And all I said was, yeah, I screwed that one up. I'm sorry. And then that, that was it. That was the end of it. And so there's a big difference between being willing to admit that, that we're not perfect. And, but it doesn't have to be this vulnerability or this emotive thing that please approve of me again and please tell me I'm okay. I like the phrase mistakes were made. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's, because it's not a week. I'm sorry. It's mistakes were made. Well, it's like, yeah, I feel bad for doing that. You know, not an apology, just an I was going to say that the things that are kind of striking me right here is the apologetics. First of all, that is like key to a lot of these quote unquote men's organizations right now, especially the good man project, for instance, they've got a video out there called Dear Woman. And it's, it's these two just the most beta male guys that you've ever seen just crying and emoting on this, on this camera, you know, pretending to speak for mankind is that we're sorry for all of the hardships and hurt. Wasn't there a guy that I talked to did that and some like, make sure. Yeah. Yeah. That was a guy from We Are Man Enough. Yeah. And this is, this is a guy who just simply never got it. He never had any, you know, conventional masculine influence. I wish I remember the guy's name right now, but uh, prime example of the kind of guy who wants to define masculinity for himself, but in doing so, he has to define it for all these other guys too, so that he feels affirmed by that. Like, so he says, well, I think masculinity is subjective and it doesn't have to be what it's always been before. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to start this conversation off like that is because I'm of the opinion that there are definitive masculine traits that are unique to men alone. Women can like lay claim to those things if they want to and say, well, not just men do this, but women can do this too. Yes, but masculine women do those things. The other thing I was going to say is that Before you hop on the other thing, guys, we're going to hop into questions in about five or 10 minutes. So if you want to queue up from the audience and we'll then we'll get the same moving quick. Oh, I was just going to say is that there needs to be, first of all, it needs to be from the bottom up and that usually starts with teaching your kids to, you know, teaching your boys, you know, their role model, you model that, you know, be a template of masculinity for them because I see so many guys today that come to me. And one of the reasons we have this lost boys generation is because we have had generation after generation since really the sexual revolution that has convinced us that men need to get in touch with their emotions. Men need to be more vulnerable. Men need to be more like a woman or more like, you know, to to align or to be more sensitive to the feminine. And it's my opinion that good relationships are built on polarity and that there needs to be a separation between the two. There is a misunderstanding right now that and a lot of guys do this is what I call identification game. These guys will build an entire life around being a good ally, being the perfect boyfriend for the right when the right girl comes around, you know, which of course is right when she hits her epiphany phase and she's about 30 years old and ready to get off the carousel. Then he's ready and waiting and you know, he's one of these betas and waiting, but I see the blue pill as training these guys up from, you know, five years old to become, you know, the majority of men being beta, you know, the 80, 20 rule 80 percent of men with being beta, they're in the perfect position to play that role in women's sexual strategies after that. And I see that that is based on an identification saying, if I'm more like a woman, if I can identify more, if I can emote more, if I can be more. So it's like it's a competition. You're gonna moat more than you'll get more girls. Exactly. And it's just like what what what Ed was saying just a minute ago is like they they'll yeah, they'll make a competition of it. And it's they try to be more alike. And it's like they because they believe that like attracts like, but like opposites attract, not likes attract. And then finally, the last thing I want to say is that I think there needs to be a delineation. We don't have rights of passage anymore. We don't have, you know, like in Jewish cultures by mitzvah or whatever, you know, there's there's that point where everybody says, okay, you're 14 years old, go out and kill a lion and don't come back to the tribe until you've killed that lion or whatever, you know that that I'm not saying go out and do that. But I think we've gotten to a point where we have pusified our our boys and again taught them as if they were defective girls or drug them whenever they act like boys. And there is there is this angst amongst boys because they feel like they were born defective, like they have something wrong with them because they're they have testosterone, they've been poisoned by their testosterone. And they take that and they believe that. And so they become what I call gender loathing. And what happens after that is they they don't know when they get to be a man and when they don't get to be a man. And some, you know, right now what what Tanner was saying, maybe that delineation is just them getting laid. So once you get laid, then you're a man. And I think that the the feminine imperative has now taken that in a lot of guys, feminist allies to not to on a lot of the organizations I was just talking about, they want to keep manhood away from you. They want to say I have the authority to say you're a man and you're not a man. And so if you if you do more for the feminine, if you do, if you align yourself up with being more like women, if you do what you're supposed to, one of the reasons we we shame men for not building themselves up and being the perfect husband and father, by the time they get to be 30, we shame those guys and we say they're they're perpetuating their adolescence, but we don't say that for women. We don't say that women are doing that. We say, oh, she's focusing on her career. And so when a woman is, you know, freezing her eggs because she can't find Mr. Right, we don't shame her for that, but we will shame the guy who's not, you know, saving his money so he can buy a house will will shame him because he didn't go to college and spend all this money, you know, in college and doing whatever she's the hero and he's and the thing is, so what they do is they hold on to this, like they have this metal that is manhood. Okay. And we're going to hold this metal until you do what women tell you that you should be doing. And then what maybe then we'll give you the metal that says you're your man. So that's where you get those memes, which is like a real man does this a real man does that what that is, is that's the feminine imperative holding on to the title of manhood. And if you don't bring your flowers, and if you don't do this stuff, and if you're not emotionally available, and you don't do all this other crap, then you don't get to be a man. And so we're going to withhold that. I think that especially in our red pill, our red pill journey, so to speak, when we unplug from the matrix when we push away and we cut away that blue pill side of us, and we want to move into a red pill paradigm, there needs to be a point of delineation, there needs to be a distinction there, whether that's a rite of passage, or there's something that says, you know what, people ask me all the time, when, when did you unplug or when did you have your moment of, oh, where, you know, my aha moment or something like that. And some for some people, for some guys, it's like a gradual thing. And then for other guys, maybe it's just like, maybe they read my book or maybe something like that in their life, a trauma happened. And then they go, Oh, this is my moment of clarity, you know, where I get that, I think there needs to be some kind of delineation where you go, you know what, you don't get to hold on to the title of manhood, I'm taking the manhood now. I'm man because I say I'm a man today. Yeah, your time's up. It's, you know, it's okay, we got this. Ivan, you want to add something? So, you know, one of those, there's a touching on something that's very important, sort of Alan talking about how the consumer base of women, the media and entertainment, I'll think about something. Women as a whole do not have the ability to define being a man or being a woman even to each other. A girl knows she's a woman, unequivocally. When she has her first period, she had to start to notice her. There's no ability for a woman to shame another woman and say, you're not a real woman. They don't have that ability, they don't have that experience. Now, a man is not a man until other men say he is. That leaves the definition open. Now, if you can take the definition of masculinity, and you can suck the life out of it, and you can turn them into women, you just double your consumer base, you can monetize them. So, there's a very real, very powerful, very pervasive interest in doing that to a man. That's a great point, like you see cosmetic companies now trying to sell. Don't even get me started at all. But what he says is true is women are and a man must become. That's why I wrote the burden of performance. Each one of us has a burden of performance, and it's not just women saying, oh, you're acceptable and you're not. It's other men, it's your tribe of men that are saying, you are now part of this tribe. That is also part of the burden of performance, and you don't escape that as a man. What's baked into that is that you have to have a tribe, and you have to have sons. And what sucks about this is you're getting it from all directions is that I have a son, but how many of us here have sons? How many of us have tried to build tribes as opposed to, again, just trying to focus on kind of what the precursor steps are and thinking that that's the goal? And so it is, I think it's so important that we continue to, like Jack talked about last year, do this generative masculinity and focus on, okay, well, what are the tribes? How do we delineate them? Who are our peers? Who are the men whose opinions matter to us? What are those rite of passages? How do we actually get it so that we have sons and we bring them into the world and we can shape the world that we're bringing them into and those kinds of things? That's critical because everything else that we've talked about is hinging on the assumption that we're doing those things. Alright, I want to move into questions. Do we have people queued up? It's hard to see with the lights. Hello, gentlemen. Superhero movies are all the rage, and I don't believe that train will ever stop. So my question is, should young boys still look up to modern-day superheroes for inspiration of masculinity? And if not, what other examples should young men look to besides fathers in the household? Yeah, I'll talk about the superhero stuff because, I mean, I've watched a lot of comic book character shit when I was growing up and even still as a grown-ass adult. That's changing a lot. Like a lot of the superheroes you see in the movie screen now. They're a lot less masculine, that's for sure. Even when I was a kid, you'd see strong muscular men and tights, but the guys they're putting on the screens right now, and a lot of them, isn't there a new superhero that's coming out that's all female cast? Probably. Yeah, it's like a marvel piece. It's like an all-female cast of superheroes, and it's like, we've already seen guys complain about what's happened with the Star Wars franchise. The last one or the one prior to the last one was very feminized. I mean, we had basically a feminist as a commander of the Allied forces with purple hair and stuff, but yeah, it's bonkers. I mean, masculinity is being watered down, and it is what it is. I mean, there's guys like us, like these are men. I speak from my heart when I say, I know all of these men sitting at this table intimately, and they are men. They don't apologize for who they are as men, whether they're married, single, dating, plate spinning, whatever. They are men, and they don't apologize for that shit, and unfortunately, they're not going to get the lead role of the next superhero movie for the Red Pill or something like that. Jack may be the villain. I was like, you know, like the hero, right? I'm a big fan of comic books. I grew up on comic books. I love sci-fi fantasy stuff too as well, but I think a lot of these stories, particularly the older ones, are based on masculine archetypes. They're based on that hero's journey thing, or they are the, what would you do if you had a superpower, kind of like Spider-Man, for instance. Spider-Man's a kid, and he's bullied, and he gets his ass kicked, and he's, you know, a 98-pound weakling, and suddenly he's bit by a radioactive spider, and now he has, like, super strength. And what that is, is that's kind of the story of, you know, it's this male, it's this weak beta male fantasy where he just has some sort of magic transformation, and he becomes a superhero, but he still is expected to keep his nice guy, you know, happy-go-lucky kind of personality behind that. That's one archetype. The other is the, sort of, the Captain Kirk Han Solo kind of archetype, where it's like the unapologetic alpha male guy. Maybe that's Captain America. I mean, if you look at the difference between, say, like Captain America and Iron Man and Tony Stark, you can see two masculine archetypes there. Both of them are alphas. Just one goes about it, you know, in one way, and the other, you know, and then, say, Captain America goes about it, and, you know, he's really a bastion of good versus evil. Whereas, you know, I would almost say Tony Stark is kind of like the sigma alpha, the sigma male kind of guy who's still alpha, but he's like the lone wolf and does things his own way. But all of those are getting pushed to the side right now because SJWs cannot create anything for themselves. They have to take a successful franchise, and they have to take that franchise and insert their messaging into it because they know that if they were to create their own superheroes, they would fall flat because those archetypes don't exist in those, in, you know, anything that they create. So they say, oh, look, Star Wars. Everybody loves Star Wars. Let's take that and make that as, as gender inclusive and as feminist intersectional as we possibly can. Let's do an all-female cast of Ghostbusters. I mean, that's the whole rage in all of these fall flat, and at some point Hollywood's going to figure it out. But yeah, I see that as sort of this infiltration into what I call male space. And so you have this male space, which is comic books, and you've got, you know, muscular guys who are here, who are, you know, portray the hero archetypes, and then you've got women, you know, at least back in the 70s and 80s, who were, you know, these buxom, you know, beautiful women to draw on, you know, drawn by a guy with the mindset that he would really like to get with a woman like that. But that's his fantasy. And we've built a successful franchise on men's fantasies, on men's, you know, aspirations to be better, or, you know, the hero archetype, or else they are building it on, like I said, the coming, you know, going from a point of weakness to a point of strength, and then on hot, sexy women. And so you build it on that, and you get the SJW, social justice warrior influence that comes into that. And they want to shake that up. In doing so, they destroy the formula that was so successful from, you know, why we have such fond memories of our comic book days when we were kids, you know, we want to go back to that, and we try to go back to that. And we find that, you know, the purple hair woman from HR is now the commanding officer of the Starfleet. Yeah. You know what's interesting, though? I mean, you'll never see a guy like Dwayne Johnson cast in a Marvel Comics movie. I mean, we've never seen it. You never seen a guy like Vin Diesel, like a strong, imposing, masculine man. You know, it's not that they don't, like Henry Cavill, the guy that does Superman. I mean, like, you know, he's a dude sort of thing. But you're not going to have like a leading role. It's going to draw a lot of eyeballs to that storyline. It's like, just as you wanted to talk about. Yeah, I think this concept of heroes is critically important. And we've been saying, well, very articulately, articulately called out the destruction of the male hero in media and comic books and movies is deliberate, it is disgusting, and it is very effective. So where can you go for that? When I was growing up comic books weren't really a part of my childhood, but what was or where the historical heroes, my father pushed those armies, read this, understand it. Let's take for a minute, let's say they do a civil war movie, right? We're going to have a gallon display of battles and courage and honor, but Robert E. Lee will be played by women. Not going to work. You can denigrate history, what they do today with Winston Churchill, but you can't change it. Look to history, look to the heroes now. One of my favorite stories is Horatius at the bridge. If you're familiar with the story, Truscant were invading Rome, there's a bridge to cross over, and one guy said, I'll stand on the bridge. A general little foot soldier will stand with you. And they held off the entire army on a famous poem. So how can man die better than facing fearful odds? The temples of his fathers, I'm sorry, for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his gods, that is real, that happened, they cannot erase it. Find those heroes and understand what the heart is within that. These heroes of the past, whether it's Artie Murphy or Horatius or Robert E. Lee or General Grant or Caesar, it wasn't necessarily an idea that motivates men to acts of heroism. It's here. If you can embody that and find that, you will be on the path to immortal manhood. Does that make sense? It's a great point. Do you want to add to that? Yeah, I would say, because I love that, and I think that that's so spot on. And I think one of the other things that's so important is that we can even scale that down, because I think one of the things that's so interesting about this idea of fantasy superheroes is for young boys, that's critical and that's important. But as you get older, that should become less and less important, because one, you've leveled up, and two, you're in a culture and you're surrounded by men who are actually worth aspiring to become like. And so I think it's so critical that we as men become the kind of men that we would hope that we would want to grow up to be like when we were kids. Are we overweight? Do we just show up in basketball shorts in an ironic t-shirt? Are we more interested in watching the game than in actually pushing ourselves and becoming better? Do we just have a job? Do we just listen to the nagging wife? Do we, I mean, do we just exist or do we do our own level? Maybe we're not going to be a level 10 superhero or a level eight historical superhero. But if we're at least a level five local hero, somebody that a young man would want to aspire to become like, he's not going to need those others as much because he's going to say, I don't have to be this because I can be fulfilling that. Quick observation, a little lighthearted, but it's important. When I was young, I'm going to date myself as who called me one of the elders, 55. But one of my favorite shows was the Incredible Hulk on CBS. And he would protect people, he would do what he had to do. And then he would revert back to, you could say, the more beta Bruce Banner. What have you seen in movies? Now, the Hulk is supposed to be the most indestructible alpha male in of all superheroes. But what does it take now to get him to go back to Bruce Banner? A woman saying, Bruce. Immortal archetypes. All right, to the question of the lineup. Yeah, great talk and a great conference. So it was very interesting that because I added a little bit of epiphany last night. And I was out drinking with Jack Donovan and a few of our attendees. Let me just tell you a little bit about what I was thinking. And when I woke up to Tanner's comments earlier about why men do stuff, I realized that over the past few decades that I've been doing everything in terms of work, business, money, fitness, game, and style and self improvement, really just to get women. And it's gone through different cycles. So maybe like I'll get a bad girl and then it'll make me, you know, get even more extreme in terms of my self improvement. But now I have to catch myself. It came to the epiphanies that, wow, I'm really being driven by woman, by pussy. That's not really my full control. But I'm successful in all those fields. So now what do I do? Well, you know what's important in Jack's officialness in his presentation. Back in the day, men had to be courageous because the circumstances around them demanded it. No guy would kill a dinosaur just to get laid. There are a hundred people on Twitter going, men never live with dinosaurs right now. I guarantee you. But in today's society, I mean, you know, the way is, I'm not per se criticizing a civilized society. But again, how Jack articulated it is changed masculinity because a lot of women feel like, well, if I need protection, I could just call the cops. I don't need to depend on my boyfriend, my husband to be masculine and courageous because police officer John is going to help me. And so now a lot of guys, because they don't have real challenges and threats just to provoke them to be masculine because their life demands that they be masculine, they say, well, shoot, I need to do this to get laid. And I need to do that to get laid. And I need to do this to get laid. And everything ends up sitting around just getting laid. Yeah, just to add to that a little bit, I mean, Roll always talks about making yourself your own mental point of origin. And if you're, you know, if your idea of being with a woman is like the mental point of origin, everything you're going to do is going to try to like, you know, build on that foundation. But I mean, if you chase excellence, not women, like I said, in my talk, you will be spoiled for choice, you know, I mean, if you're doing the right things, you look strong, you look masculine, you make an impact in the world. You know how to make bank, you know, you're putting a dent in the universe. Women will be around. And it's, it's really not that hard. So I mean, if you put the focus on, like the pickup or the regurgitation of certain lines to break into a group of women in a nightclub or in a public place or in a park, yeah, that works. But what do you do after, you know, you know, we saw the, you know, the great mystery from Neil Strauss's, you know, the game have one it is for his Katja sort of thing. And, you know, this was like, you know, the Lord of the pickup artistry sort of thing, you know, this is kind of what this talk is about, you know, like the hacks out there sort of thing. Long term game means a hell of a lot more than remembering lines or agitating them and approaching women and trying to close the deal. It's a lot bigger than that. There's a lot more to be in a man than just that. That's where, that's where I think a lot of critics of the red pill kind of have like tunnel vision. They think that it's just about getting laid. It's just, oh, you're just teaching guys how to get laid. Yeah, because we're, what do they call us pussy beggars? Yeah, pussy beggars. The latest thing is, oh, you're a bunch of old white men trying to be alphas by saying big words. Right. We got a couple of brothers on here. I was going to say is that, yeah, when you get to that point, I've worked with guys who all they wanted to know was, okay, just teach me some game. Just why does game work? And how can I go and apply that? And they'll just learn that side of it. And they never really understand the mechanics or like they never want to look under the hood is how I say they just want to drive the car. They don't want to know how to build the car. They don't want to know how to fix the car. They just want to, you know, they want the keys to the car and the cheat codes to the video game. And then they can, then they're going to go off. And then sooner or later, these guys come back and they go, oh, Rolo, help me. I'm with a borderline personality disorder woman. And I don't know what to do with it. And then you get the guys who are similar to your situation where they've done everything the right way. Maybe they are getting, they are getting laid and they've got to that point. And then they go, what else is there? What's left for me? And again, that comes back to what I was talking about before. When we pedestalize woman kind, when we don't make ourselves our mental point of origin, we make woman kind our mental point of origin. A lot of guys have to give themselves permission to be selfish, to be, let's say selfish, but let's say self important or self concerned. And to, you know, we always say, you got to knock the woman off the pedestal. You got to knock woman kind off the pedestal and you've to put yourself first. Like I said, I'm a, I'm a big proponent of enlightened self interest. I can't help anyone until I can help myself. And I can't help anyone as well as when I help myself first. And then I can go help somebody else after that. And so when all you do is just focus on some object oriented goal, like getting laid. Great. What happens when you can get laid regularly? When you're like, okay, this is no longer a challenge or I have a girlfriend or I have a, I have a wife that really likes having sex with me. Now, what do I want to do? Am I just going to lean back and just kick back? No, I guess I made it. Or are you going to do like, like, like Jack said, are you going to, is there going to be another challenge? Is there going to be some new, the rural Boris, right? Is there, you know, it's not so you can get to the weekend. It's so that you can get to the next project, right? Yeah. Yeah. And they're asking you for the linear solution. Yes. Like they're like, how, what are the three steps that I need to take to get laid? Red pill is not a linear solution. It's a constant solution. It's, it's, it's a way of rule. Well, that's a life choice. That's such a good question because I mean, when you take off the whole idea of woman kind or sex or anything else is the goal, because when you get there, you realize that it's not. And like Jack talked about survival is not the goal because that's already largely taken care of for us. Then what are the options? What are the other options for a why, why become the best version of yourself? I think that's a, that's a really top and a really valid question. And I think, you know, as I've listened to you guys talk and as I've been thinking about this, and I'm curious if you guys can come up with more than this than I have, but I can think of three reasons. One is this idea of egoism where I am me and I want to be the best version of me. And so that's, that's the self fulfillment component. I think number two is, is this idea of legacy, which is I want to make the world a better place and that maybe for my children or for my tribe or for anything else, but I want to matter to the world. I want to make it better than how it was when I left it. And I think the third one is related to something bigger than just what this, this temporal world is. So whether that's religion or divine potential or something else, but it's the idea of, you know, for me, it's, I have a moral obligation by virtue of my relationship with, with God that I need to become the best version of myself. And so I think that those three things are kind of the main camps to put it in. But if it's not in one of those, then why even care? Why even try to be the best version of yourself beyond just getting late and making some money? All right, let's hop into the next question. Hey guys, I'm not a native speaker. So it's just kind of a note. There's like a difference. There's two words like getting pussy and being a pussy. It's pusillanimous, which is an adjective showing a lack of courage or determination, being timid. And it's come from, it comes from Latin having a very small mind. I found that very interesting because people always like tell you, don't, don't be a pussy. But usually they think, don't be, I don't know, a girl or a feminine woman, whatever. But it's actually a whole lot of has to do with like, be masculine, be courageous, be determined, be there, be present. And I think most of the guys don't understand that. It's like, that was very interesting. And just a short question, maybe, as an exercise of imagination for the panel, how would you see masculinity being taught in school? How would you see maybe a rite of passage being taught in school? I did a long video on this, man. It's not being taught in school. It's, you know, like, what is it? 89% of school teachers are female. I mean, like, even in Canada, where I'm from, you know, as a kid around, around, like, November, you know, December time, like little puddles of water would freeze up. And as kids, you'd like run up to them and slide across them as fast as you could, right? Now you can't do that shit anymore. You get put into detention or you get taken inside or you got to go to the principal's office if you're playing on ice. So it's like, they don't, you know, like I did incredibly bad in school. Like I was a DC student. I was a very poor student, you know, according to like the school guidance rules. I remember I sat in the principal's office for about a week in grade eight because the teacher didn't know how to handle me in the classroom. So she figured, fuck it, I'll put him in the principal's office and let him sit there. And the principal's looking at me like, look, you know, son, if you don't smart enough, you're not going to get a good job like me. And you know, you know, it's like, dude, like I make more than you in a couple months and what you did all year. And, you know, this guy's lecturing me about what success is and what a man should be. It's like, you were, like, you know, when I look back at those moments and days and even today, I mean, if, if I had a son, I'd be fearful putting him through the school system because the school system does not manufacture boys and girls. It basically manufactured, you know, it's a indoctrination system of like the government protocol. And what it does is it spits out girls and feminized boys. Oh, you guys said I'm dead. Oh man. Gotta talk about this a lot with some people, man, I don't have kids. This is just my opinion and my observation. We don't want one, we need to get back to some type of physical expression. You know, when I was a kid and the school system was imperfect when I was a kid, I'm 33. But we used to go out during lunchtime. First of all, we had like an hour recess, which was great. And we would play outside and the boys would get together and we would have races for candy or we had some kids, they were, they liked doing backflips and all that nonsense. The point is that we will not only did we have that, we had gym as well. There was almost two hours of physical expression a day. And if you didn't like it, you didn't have to, I mean, there were people getting out of gym at that point. And now the problem is they're removing that option. There aren't, there isn't recess. They're trying to get rid of physical education. They're removing that element of real tactile, I'm going to learn kinesthetically, I'm going to engage in the world that way. That's the first step. The second thing which is kind of related to the first thing is we need to reinstill a sense of competition in the school system between the students, not necessarily with an imaginary grade system. This is a guy who has floors in that grade system as well. But we need to make it more about how you compete and relate with your other, with your fellow students, our ranking system. We say, oh, you know, we don't want to damage these kids self-esteem, but part of that damage, you know, you don't want to break it and ruin it, but you do need to nick it a bit. You do need kids to feel like they have to earn their place and their respect amongst their peers. And it's not just about the authority looking down on you, deciding that you are good, you are bad, and you're going to forever be doomed to surface wages and maybe we'll promote you. No, kids have no sense of honor and respect amongst themselves because they're not forced to ever compete amongst themselves unless, unless, you know, the kid decides to compete in some kind of sport activity, but the numbers are so low, and now we're trying to get an ending, you know, that's not given to what's changed at the professional level in many sports, particularly at least the NFL and how that is trickling down to the high school level and then ultimately the college level in sports. But yeah, I think to sum up what I'm saying, we need to get back to physical expression in the school system and we also should get back to some level of competition and forces kids to recognize each other as not, and not just in a, oh, you know, you're cool, you're popular kind of way, but no, I mean, we, we really used to have straight up contests and competitions in elementary school and middle school recessed throughout the year, you know, who is the fastest, who could, we used to shoot hoops all the time, I was terrible at basketball, I'm not black guy, the anomaly, but we used to have all kinds of, we used to have all kinds of ways to prove who was going to be, you know, who was the man, and we gained respect that way and it wasn't negative and it enforced us to improve. Another, another competition that doesn't exist in the school system anymore is like the grading system in Canada, like I don't know what it is in the certain, you know, schools in the States, but I mean, you know, Canada, like they don't fail students anymore. So if you're a shitty student and you don't get it, you still move on to the next grade regardless of what your skills are, whether or not you comprehend the curriculum, they do not fail children anymore. And one of the things that I just learned about in the other, last couple months would piss me off when I heard about this was if a parent wants to go in and complain to the teacher that their child's feelings were hurt because they got a C instead of an A plus, the teacher's instructed by the board to give them an A plus, right? So like, you know, like kids got to learn about rejection and life. I mean, you know, Rolo talks about this all the time. I mean, you know, for a boy to evolve into a man to go through the rites of passage, they have to understand, hey, if you can't figure out the math test and you suck at it, you get, you know, the zero or you, or you fail or, you know, whatever it's got to be and you got to go to summer school. I sucked at math in grade six and I had to go to summer school to figure out that I, you know, did I learn, fuck it writes, I learned my lesson. I, you know, I studied my ass off to make sure that I didn't fail again, because I didn't want to have to walk in the blazing sun to go to summer school while my friends were outside having fun and swimming and doing other things, right? So, you know, I think it's incredibly important just to understand that it's like, it's, it's not a friendly place for boys to grow up in the school system today. It's an indoctrination system is essentially to feminize them. We are, we are teaching boys as if they were defective girls. We are drugging boys with Adderall and Riddleland like never before. And, and why? Because the school systems are so controlled by a feminine mindset. If it's not females as it is, it's a feminine mindset in that women teach in a certain style is teach as if they're teaching for girls. We want to give girls the world, right? And it's part of this, what I call the Fempowerment narrative. It's where we're going to build women up. It's title nine is a really great example of that too. But it's where we're giving our girls every advantage. And that's really hard for me to say when I have a daughter myself, and I want her to, you know, grow up and be on top of things, but I don't want that to be at the expense of boys. I don't want that to be a lack of understanding. But the reason that we have a feminine primary education system, at least here in the United States, is most, it's mostly women that are teaching right now. And why is that? Because it's dangerous, it's dangerous territory for a man to be a teacher. First of all, it's not that well paid. Why? Because, you know, we need guys to, you know, guys want to make money. They want to, it's this dominance hierarchy thing. So it takes a really special kind of guy to want, you actually want to be a teacher. But even when it's a well paid role, like in Canada, a top tier teacher will make about like 98 grand. And yeah, it's still even good. I don't know what the average is for the United States, but a lot lower. Yeah, I'm sure it is. And so there's, it takes a guy who wants, who has a drive for that. So even when you have a guy that is in education, there's always a chance that he's going to get me too. There's always a chance that, you know, some students going to say, he looked at me wrong, you know, or whatever, you know, he's going to give me an F, he looked at me wrong. I mean, girls as young as, you know, seven, eight, nine years old understand that dynamic. Now they know that if they, you know, all they have to do is say a few, say some certain things and cast dispersion on a teacher. And it's like, you know, it's just this threat assessment. I think what we're doing right now, and I wanted to say this in my, in my speech was I had this, I had this video queued up was like this old Twilight Zone episode, or as this little boy who can control everything in his, in his town and in his family. And so consequently, all of the, the, the, his parents and the friends of the parents, they're all isolated. And they have to do whatever this kid says because he can magically make things happen. And basically he can kill you if he wants to and wish you a way to the cornfield. And what I think we're doing right now is something very similar where we are pandering to the feminine imperative where we're like, we don't want to, where we're always stepping on eggshells. We don't want to, to rattle, you know, we don't want to experiment. We don't want to shake up the, you know, the apple cart kind of thing because if we do, we're going to get collectively wished away to the cornfield. And that is with me too right now. And so when, when a guy wants to get into, to educating or he wants to be, even just be a mentor for a kid, he still has that in the back of his head. Like if I do this, am I going to be seen as a pedophile? If I do this, am I going, is what I'm teaching going to offend the feminine establishment? Because if I say, if I go there as a masculine male and I'm mentoring boys, and I say, you know, you need to get into competition. You need to be, you need to be more masculine. You need to, you know, here are some ways to, to do that. I have to watch my ass. Because just me saying that I can upset, you know, any feminist within earshot to say, you know, you know, Mr. Rollo there said that, you know, that boys should be more competitive. And that's, that's a perpetuating masculine, you know, toxic masculine stereotypes. And I lose my job. You know, that's what you have to watch out for these days. But sorry, Ben, sorry, do you want to add to that? Well, because, you know, we're working on this too, because I've got three kids and one of them's a son. And I think that as important as those macro changes are, it'll take decades and a whole lot more backlash to get to the point where we can change that within the public school system. And so I think, you know, for anybody who's actually wanting to, okay, well, I've got young kids, what do I do about it now? How do I, how do I actually tackle and approach that now? I think we can substitute what Ed is talking about by putting your kids in sports and particularly even into the like combat stuff, you know, have them do wrestling or boxing or things like that so that they start to engage that way. And I would say get yourself in a financial and a cultural position where homeschool and even like homeschool co-ops and those kind of things are an option because I, I, I agree with you guys, it is, it is a death sentence to send your kids and especially your boys into school right now and there's no way that, that I'm letting my little boy go into that world. It's just, it's not an option. All right, we got another question? Yeah, I wanted to follow up on this current topic. Do you think that anywhere in the States is it possible for an all boys school to exist that would help embody and, and view masculinity into these young boys? Yeah, I'll, you know, by the way, gentlemen, we've got about 10 minutes. I'll just speak on this very quickly. I got a friend of mine that put his son in a private school, cost him 30 grand a year and he's getting all the attention and resources that he needs. It's a smaller classroom, you know, there's a tribe of boys, you know, they're very tribal, like they do like a lot of the things that Jack writes about in that private school. So, I mean, there are ways to do it, but you're going to have to have access to resources to put your kids through it in today's world, unfortunately, but yeah, I'll pass it off to him. It's a really good business opportunity to start similar schools too. Yeah, it's a really good opportunity. Yeah, all male exclusivity is really tough these days too. So, if you've bred my, my post in my chapter on male space, we're seeing this happen right now in the boy scouts where it's no longer the boy scouts, it's the scouts and it's just so that we can bring girls in and people want to say, well, that's because the boy scouts have been suffering financially for a while. Well, surprise, surprise, right? And now it's come to my attention that there is an all-female group of cub scouts, I think it's in Santa Cruz, California, all-place, right? And what that is is it's sort of this culmination of the process of the feminine imperative and women just sort of inserting themselves into all male exclusive spaces. The same thing happened at Harvard. They basically eliminated all of the male exclusive campus organizations at Harvard, but kept all of the female exclusive ones. So, what that's saying is that they believe that it is dangerous for men to organize and to have any kind of exclusivity within, you know, as determined by sex. So, can you do that? Would it be a good idea? Yeah, I would think it would be a great idea, but there are a lot of obstacles in the way that are going to either prevent you from doing that or they're going to subvert your intentions for doing it. It is dangerous. That's the whole action. Yeah, it's dangerous to their their objectives. Yeah, it's a threat. Yeah. Here's the thing. I mean, it goes back to what I was talking about with corporate America and influence of media entertainment. You take this conference, the 21 conference, if this was corporate sponsored by any beverage company, you would have radical feminists saying, well, Jack better say this, Tanner better say this, Rolo better say this or else we're going to pull our money, you know, and I guess we'll chatch my hide. This is probably my final comment. Here's a chatch my hide. Nobody up here is, Ivan's married, Rolo's married. No men up here are going out in the streets just, you know, going up to a woman and slapping her upside the head or, or, or, you know, raping them. But yet you have women and say, Oh, these, these hateful guys are at this conference. They hate women just because you have a strong opinion and you speak truth. All of a sudden you're a hater of the opposite gender. I don't think any man who attended this conference can genuinely now granted, there are some men out there. There are some men out there who are physically abusing women, raping women and doing whatever. None of those men are at this conference. And yet we're branded as haters just for speaking the truth. And I just think it's a shame that society has evolved at that point. But again, they have these, these male allies in corporate America, immediate entertainment that if, if they, if Hollywood was the producer movie called the 21 convention, they would have some weak guy playing Rolo said, you know, I started off writing the rational male, but I realized I just love women. And it's the beautiful women book I should have wrote. I should have wrote the books on the beautiful women we should cheer us as God's creatures and something like that. It's just, let me start. I think we have time for one more question. We've got five minutes and we'll wrap it up. All right, perfect. Because this kind of relevance since Donovan and Ivan are up there and was relevant for everybody. But it seems like last year, this convention really changed, you know, change directions 180 going towards Red Pill. And this year is like an expansion of that. And just hanging out with a lot of the attendees, it seems like a lot of the guys, like even like the other guy said before, he's like, I've been women have been the center of all my progress. Like I've been doing everything just to get women. And it seems like now it's kind of like a point where a lot of the attendees are like, okay, I have the fundamentals down. I can get women what now. And it seems like the I'm thinking, like the future of this, like it's been progressing. And I'm seeing the way that I'm seeing the progression. And I want to ask you guys if you see the same thing is we're moving towards men. Like, right now, it seems like the convention is like, how do men interact with women? And I feel like next year, it's going to be like how do men interact with men and tribalism and like men collaborating locally, like kind of like this, but on a smaller scale, like in their local environments. And then coming back, you know, once a year and doing on a big level. So do you guys see that like for this event, like, or I think it's already happening that. I mean, you know, for me, anyway, like my own experience was like, dude, your talk was way better this year. I mean, you know, I took cues from Tanner and I have my, you know, style game I threw on a nice coat and it did well by the way. Yeah, so it's like, you know, you know, we're not here going out doing pickup approaches. You got to do like 100 approaches, you know, throughout the week. Like, I don't think anybody did that practically. It's like, you know, guys are here to understand themselves, the masculinity that, you know, they're supposed to embrace, you know, deal with past trauma, you know, reconcile past beliefs that didn't serve them, a lot of stuff like that. I mean, you know, this is, this is definitely a, you know, become a better version of yourself sort of thing that's happening here. I think that's the beauty of this conference is like, if you want to go out surging or whatever, there's always some guy that, you know, maybe Goldman will go out there with your Christian McQueen or something like that with Bill. There is that aspect of it, but there's also more to it than just that. Like, like Alan was saying, you know, there's married men here. There's single guys here. There's, we have such a depth and breadth of, you know, for lack of a better term, conventional masculinity here. And there is definitely a desire for that. Like I said, with the Lost Boys generation, but are we going to lean more one way or the other? You know, I don't know that that remains to be seen, but as far as I can tell right now, I think we, it's the fact that we encompass so much. That's the primary strength of this convention. And Joshua, I wanted to quickly say, because you mean you have had many conversations into the guys who heard my earlier comments, I don't want to ever say being a dating coach, that getting laid is not important. Yeah. Okay. It is. But what I'm saying, using the analogy of health and fitness, if you eat right and exercise, that's a benefit in itself. And losing weight will be the fringe benefit. But as I think it was Tanner or somebody said, if you just concentrate just on losing weight for the sake of losing weight, once you lose weight, or borrow what's next. Not only that, but if you just, I always talk about why the process is important, not just the outcome. If you focus on just losing weight for sake of losing weight, you might do some dubious things to lose that weight rather than take the right process. And next thing you know, you've got a whole slew of negative consequences and externalities that you didn't anticipate that you have to deal with. And if you just focus on, okay, I'm going to get my fitness right, my health right, my diet right, and you're going to lose weight. That's great. You're losing weight will be the consequence, but you're also going to have a whole slew of other benefits. That's what I call the crisis of motive is guys will say, well, the only reason you're going to the gym is so that you can get laid. The only reason you're trying to look good is so you can get laid. I think even, even Jack was saying, you know, we are our purpose for getting in shape now is not because we need to go lift heavy things. We actually need to use that to kill a saber tooth tiger or something. It's that we want to look better that we want to have you want to live a better life. And so I think we need to resist falling into this trap that, that you only do something for one reason. Like when you go and you work out, like I'm working out, if I go to martial arts or something like that, do I expect to go walk down the street and go, Hey, come here, I'm going to kick your ass. No, it's not. But it's like knowing that you could do that. But there's also also other benefits along with that. So do you go to the gym just to get laid? No, but is that a definite plus because you're you look better naked? Yeah, okay. Or are you going to stay in shape? Are you doing that to, you know, live a better life, be healthier, have some more confidence in yourself? All of that counts. And so the crisis of motive is who do you, who or what are you doing a particular act for? And I'm going to say that it's okay to go to the gym if you're trying to get laid. That's okay. But there's other advantages to that as well. So it's you need to ask yourself, and that's really a personal, personal question that you have to sort of dig down to even say, why am I really doing this? And is it worth my while? Because once I achieve that goal, is it going to be worth it to keep doing this? And I like what Ed said, it's the process is the process. All right, so on that note, gentlemen, we're going to wind down this episode, we're going to break for lunch, and then we've got another one this afternoon. And then after that, George Bruno is going to do a wet shave demonstration on my head, apparently. So those are the bonus content. Yeah, this is bonus content for people. When you introduced me at the beginning, I didn't get to say my website. Can I say directapproachdating.com. Yeah, and definitely, you know, again, just to top up on the panel. So Alan, you know, he did his, where's the best place for people find your brother? All right, edladamore.com or edladamore on Twitter. I live in those places. Yep. And we got the darktriadman.com. Rational mail. Does it start the world or is it jackdonovan.com? It's jackdashdonovan.com. Jackdashdonovan.com. Actually, jackdonovan.com, someone bought, and it refers to the national organization for women. So make sure you insert the dash. Someone's paying for that. And we got Tanner Guzzi masculine-style.com or at Tanner Guzzi on Twitter. Awesome. All right, so we'll see you guys in the next episode. Peace out. Thank you. What was your experience so far with the 21 convention? Oh, I was dead. I was dead. Professional. All across the board. Really good energy with a lot of people. And I just like it because it's a very positive, positive direction. This, George, this has been a first class event. It's fantastic. You guys run a really tight ship. I've been to a lot of conventions over the course of my business career and I can tell when things are well run and when things aren't. And this is a very well run operation. I was very impressed. It's pretty incredible to see where Anthony's brought it, especially from last year, which was my first year here. And to see the upgrades he's made, it's been incredible. I've got my notebook and with every speaker, I've written down about two or three lines under each of the speakers of just the key prime stuff that I got. That's good. That's good. It's very surreal, man. I'm really enjoying it. I'm happy to live in such an era where such a thing like this is possible. I have never seen a group of guys like this. A group of 200 men were focused, squared away, working on their values. Just never met a bigger group of wonderful guys. It's kind of neat because I've been to a fair amount of conventions in my day, but you never see one where the guys like here you can just see Ed Latimore talking to Tanner about boxing. Yeah. You just sit down and then you tell your boxing experiences. Everybody's kind of pinging off each other. It's nice. It has been fantastic. And it's been four days of guys all on the same page working in the same direction. Fascinating meeting some of the people, hearing their stories. Yeah, you've got people traveling from other parts of the world to come here just to see some of the speakers. That's amazing. I think it's impressive. Everybody here is very serious. Yeah. They're taking it close to their heart. What a great convention. Thanks, George.