 Good evening, welcome to the Farming Podcast brought to you by Private Property. My name is Mbali Nwokko, your host, and for Tuesdays and Thursdays, right here at 8 p.m. on the Farming Podcast brought to you by Private Property. Today we're speaking undercover farming with greenhouse technologies. I'm joined by two gentlemen. One is Deon de Gauch, who's the self-manager at greenhouse technology and technical manager at greenhouse technologies. I'm joined by Heinrich Miller, and we're going to unpack undercover farming. Do I invest in tunnels? Do I invest in shade nets? What type of crops do I farm undercover? You know, what type of, how do I maintain maybe the structures during winter and what heating systems can I incorporate in my production processes when I farm undercover? These are some of the questions that our guests, you guys watching us tonight, have brought in the previous episodes that we've had on to the podcast. And so if you've been interested in undercover farming or looking to start in an investment in an undercover farm, this episode is just for you. So as always, please like, share, and comment on our podcast. And we're always happy to answer your questions live on the podcast. And, you know, we get the experts to answer your questions directly. But without further ado, let's get on to it. Let me greet the two gentlemen from Greenhouse Technologies. Dion, Heinrich, how are you doing? Good evening. And thank you so much for joining us. Hi, thank you for having us. Thank you for having us. Thank you. I must open to you. That's fantastic. Thank you so much. So I just want to start with maybe Dion, right? Just give us a brief breakdown of what does greenhouse technologies do for anybody who's never heard of green house technologies before. Yeah, so we've the business started about 14 years ago. Next year it will be 15 years originally started with greenhouse plastic. And then obviously expanded from there. So currently to sum it up, obviously we do a wide range of products. But currently it's basically greenhouse plastic. And that's roof plastic plus then floor plastic for greenhouse irrigation. Mostly drip irrigation, but other irrigation as well. Then growing substrates, which is a combination of peat, cocoa peat or coir, and then obviously different blends. And then controllers, fertilization units. So there's a list of things, but that's our core product. So obviously our market is aimed at mostly flower growers, vegetable farmers, undercover farmers, obviously, blueberry farmers, citrus farmers. That's that's basically the clients that we serve. Awesome, fantastic. 14 years is quite a long time. So you've definitely been around the block and are quite experienced as a company. And then I just want to move on to Haydn, okay. So now I just wanted to obviously you said 14 years and obviously at this point in time, we started in Joburg and then obviously grew from this. Currently we do have branches in Western Cape, Eastern Cape, KZ10 Nelsprate. And then we've got a rep in Khorobler style as well. And then obviously I'm with his technical body is also in charge of exports, which is mostly Botswana and maybe as those countries. Sorry, I just wanted to I forgot that. I just obviously wanted to add that as well. No problem. I think that helps a lot because, you know, we have people listening from all over the show, you know, in the country. So it's always great to know that you've got different branches and can help farmers invest your geographic regions to Heinrich. You know, the topic for this evening is undercover farming. And, you know, it seems like everybody wants to invest in tunnels or in shade nets, maybe just expand this term undercover farming. What is what is the term undercover farming mean exactly? And why would a farmer decide to go undercover as opposed to open land? Thank you, my body undercover actually just means it's either under Schneider net plastic or virus net. So what you achieve with that is to keep the elements out, which will be called rain frost. But all depends on what area you're forming on what crop you're forming or what crop you're forming. So it's a more controlled environment you are forming. So if you want to control the temperature, the humidity and other factors like that. Awesome. And, you know, Dion mentioned that you're one of your specialties as greenhouse technologies is plastic tunnels. Maybe can you take us through the specifications of those plastic tunnels? Greenhouse technology offers to farmers. And what can one grow in those plastic tunnels? Well, in South Africa, your standard tunnels are 10 by 30 meter tunnel. That's the standard in South Africa. The standards that Africa will have closed sides as well. But more and more people are using tunnels, which is a lot higher and where you can actually roll the sides up. That's just for better ventilation and better control of temperature. And then price wise, you can go from a very cheap structure by growing just the tomatoes or growing some latest nerd. You can go to a very expensive structure growing cannabis. So there's a wide variety of applications and a price difference in what you're going to do. But my advice would be is your structure will also be at all the things and where you are. If you're on a popo, for example, you have a lot higher structures and maybe you go to a place like Senin. A lot of the structures in Senin are actually open on the sides. Just for the heat and for the humidity and for the ventilation. So I'll say that every province or every area there are differences in the structures. There's not a one size fits all or there's not one solution for everybody. Oh, OK. And that was actually going to be my next question to say, you know, is it is it a viable business option to to build structures in very hot areas because you're thinking plastic and, you know, crops could get quite hot and underneath plastic. But now you're mentioning the different aspects of ventilation. But is it still a good investment, even though there's ventilation on the sides to build, you know, greenhouse infrastructure in very, very hot areas? No, they definitely is. But it must also be understood that we sell about 20 to 25 different plastic forms for the greenhouses as well. Some of them will only have like a 10 percent shade and we go up to 70 percent shade for people that are growing like indoor plants. We supply them with plastic that's got a 70 percent shade in the plastic area. But also all the bands that you're going for, mainly summer production or winter production, because you're also not going to have a form that is going to produce the best results for summer and winter. You must decide what's your target market? What do you want to benefit from the most? You want more sunlight in or do you want a cooler, cooler form? And then we can advance you accordingly. Right. Thank you, Heinrich. Dion, as a sales manager for greenhouse technologies, you know, we may have farmers currently watching this evening who have been growing or producing, you know, vegetables or whatever it is that they're growing in an open field. And now when it comes to thinking about having some form of crop protection like putting infrastructure with its tunnels or shade nets, you know, a significant amount, a significant amount of planning is required in that. Tell me what is that sales process or that customer process that you take a farmer who wants to invest in structures? Do you sit with them and maybe, you know, understand their business? What type of crop? And then do you then advise what type of tunnels, you know, together as a team, I suppose, with with Heinrich behind the scenes? Just maybe break us through that sales process. Or assisting a farmer to make the right investment and have the right tunnels when they're looking to to go into undercover farming. Yeah, so what we do is we don't. I know our name says greenhouse technologies, but we don't actually build structures or supply structures. But we do we do have a list of contractors and companies that we work with. They do that. So what we'll usually do is obviously those guys know what they do. But also we have we have Herman in ours, who is obviously he's got a lot of experience when it comes to structures. So obviously we use him just as a almost on a consultation basis with some of these guys, although we don't build the structures. So if we go and see a new clients and they want to obviously start a business or start or build a structure, then we'll obviously advise, although we won't build the structure ourselves. So we'll advise as as far as possible. And I think what's important is before you just go and build the structure, I think it's important to obviously decide on crop because there's obviously a different like like I said, there's a massive difference between growing something like say, it seems like we're having some technical difficulties this evening with our guests. So far, if you've just joined us, we are speaking undercover farming with greenhouse technologies. I'm joined by Dion de Gaulle, which is a sales manager at greenhouse and Heinrich Miller, which is the technical manager. And so far before we just got interrupted, I'll just give them a two minutes or so just to get back onto the line. And so far, we've just been talking about the term or the definition undercover farming. What is what does it mean? And Heinrich was able to give us some information in terms of the different structures and the different forms and the different heating, sorry, ventilation methods you could both in your tunnels. But it all depends on the farmer, you know, your geographic region, the crop that you're farming, and there's not one size fits all model when it comes to greenhouses. But the standard, as Heinrich said, is that it's a 10 by 30 meter structure, which is 300 square meters in size. And then Dion was able to inform us that greenhouse technology is based nationally in South Africa and various geographic regions. So if you are looking to procure something from greenhouse technology, I'm sure there are in a very close region near you. Gentlemen, thank you so much. I see that you're back onto the line. I just want to quickly test if you both can hear me. You could just give me a thumbs up before I proceed to my next question. OK, awesome, awesome. Heinrich, you know, I want to ask in terms of there's been a growing trend of people building greenhouse structures and so forth. You know, ideally in vegetable farming, one of the most popular and profitable crops to grow under greenhouses, as people always want to know, how can I get my return on investment much quicker? My body, I'm going to answer it in a different way. The thing is, if you're a smaller scale farmer, it's very difficult for him to compete in the open market or sending stuff to the market. So I've seen the areas, the smaller guys, it's actually more profitable for them to just seem to their local supermarkets or to get local contracts, where a lot of the guys in the commercial or the bigger farmers, they've really got contracts with the supermarkets. They deliver to the DCs and that. So I'll say the target market for both of them are not the same. OK, and what would small be in this case, even from a tunnel perspective? Is it a smaller farmer, maybe farming in five tunnels or in 10? What would small be in this case? I'll say up to 10 tunnels. Up to 10 tunnels, I'll say smaller, smaller, smaller farmer. We've got some of our farmers who got multi-span. Multi-span is where the banks are next to each other. There's some of them are growing in like 15, 20, 25 hectares. So I'll say two or they've got different markets actually. Right. And you brought on something that I thought I, you know, I would have forgotten this evening about multi-spans. What are the pros and cons of building in a multi-span versus a single tunnel? Is it based on a crop or is it based on just the climate in that area? What what what would make me decide to go for multi-span as opposed to single bay structures? I'll say it's a progression. A lot of the farmers start with a tunnel and then later went to a multi-span. The reason why the multi-span span is better is you can go to a lot higher act. So you can trade us a lot higher. So if you're growing a crop like tomatoes or peppers or something, you can go a lot higher. Your control and temperature is a lot easier in your bigger structure. And you can also then spend the money for a big controller and ventilation or natural ventilation or forced ventilation. So I'll just say it's it's. It's high technology, but you can also get higher returns and get a lot more right with it with a multi-span than a tunnel. With the multi-span, doesn't the risk then increase as well from like pests and diseases because, you know, it's not enclosed. I suppose if you just you're spraying on one end, you know, the pest can quickly migrate to the other end. So doesn't that expose your plants a lot more from a pest and disease infestation? A lot of my multi-span growers are actually going to do natural predators. So lots of them are actually the ventilation on top. If they've got top ventilation or they've got side ventilation, they're actually putting in virus netting and that to keep white fly and other other pests out. And then they actually have natural predators that they are using in the greenhouses. So I've seen the last, let's say, 10 years in the greenhouse industry that they're going a lot more for natural predators and not spraying so much anymore. I see, I see. And I love think before I move on to maybe ask Leon a question, Heinrich, is I've been curious to find out as well, you know, during the winter months, especially a lot of farmers who are growing undercover would say, you know, have heating systems, etc. How how viable is it from a business perspective to have heating systems during winter month and given the fact that the prices for crops, you know, don't change that much every year? So does I'm sure it must eat a lot to eat a lot into operational costs or expenses on a monthly basis to have heating systems in place. No, look, I've also seen that a lot more people that were heating or not heating anymore and on the same side with forced egg cooling that they've got a companion fan system, a lot of people actually taking that out and they're putting in natural ventilator or they're ventilating the houses naturally because of rising costs. And that's also why a lot of the crops are actually area pacific, where a lot of the tomatoes are grown like in Lampopo and a lot of the papers actually grown from along and other areas. So if you're going to be like, let's say, in Khateng and Johannesburg and you need to hold your contracts with supermarkets and that some of the guys are going to other choice than to eat and most of the heating they are using is full with coal using with coal and they've got hot water that are pumping through tubes on the floor. Where the older technology used to be a to a is where they heat the air up and then they blow the air to the greenhouse. But then you got other problems with with patients and also with diseases. So a lot of the guys are preferring to do perhaps in the green houses and run hot water through them or radiators. I see it's such an interesting concept. I wish I could see it live just to just put things into perspective. Yeah, Dionne, I just want to move on to you. You know, I assume you travel a lot. You meet many farmers on the field. You speak to them about the operations. What have been some of the trains around greenhouse or undercover farming that you've picked up? Like what are farmers looking to do where where their greenhouses are concerned to increase or expand their production? And maybe our farmers moving from vegetables to fruit or from fruit to vegetables, just tell us what are some of the the you know, the the trends that are happening on the ground directly from the farmers? You're just on mute. OK, sure. I think Dionne is just on mute. The biggest move I've seen is that there's a lot more guys going into export. So either export blueberries or the citrus industry is massive in South Africa. And in the next 10 years, they're nearly going to double the production for export. There's a lot more crops coming into export like raspberries, blueberries, gooseberries is a big drive in the berry market because it's like a health food. And then in South Africa, we have started the beginning. There's the beginning of the cannabis industry, which can be a massive employer and also revenue for for this country. Right. So we as apologies and other guys in industry, we're actually waiting for like the cannabis market also to really get hit going and that we also can get involved in. So are you saying that with building greenhouse structures, it's more lucrative now based on, you know, market chains and demands to export, especially with super fruits because of the return on investment, maybe per per kilogram, et cetera. And if more people are moving on to export now, who are the farmers that are going to continue farming, you know, your carrots, your cabbages, the staple vegetables that really hold this economy down? No, no, we still have that. We still have that. Just the biggest growth that I've seen in the last three or four years has actually been the export market. Yeah. Yeah. A lot more. Can I just export it? Awesome. Sorry, can I can I just add there? Yeah, obviously, exactly what I said, I think I think what is important is a lot of people always ask you what's that? What's the crop that you can make money with? And I know there's highs and lows. So I know currently there's cannabis and blueberries. Exactly what I said. But I also think a lot of people sometimes make the mistake that they want to jump from one crop to another crop. So but there's definitely preferred crops that, like Andrew said, especially on the export market, I think from a from a practical from a practical side, I think farmers are getting more penny wise. They are looking to automate maybe cut costs. And that's obviously that's a challenge for us as well, because we importing and obviously we obviously we need to be able to see where we can give better solutions, better costs without cutting quality, because I think that's that's probably a mistake that guys make. They want to cut costs, but in the end, they cut cuts on the quality as well. So I think farmers are definitely we definitely need more cost sensitive. But then, yeah, I think in terms of what the hundred said, one hundred percent accurate export market, blueberries, cannabis is going to be huge as soon as that can get going. Citrus obviously massive, but that's that's scale. That's yeah, that's massive farmers. You see, and it goes back to what I was saying to say, you know, as much as a farmer could see such opportunities, export markets, super fruits, you know, seeing very, very great big trends. How does greenhouse technologies come in making sure that the farmers making the right investment? Because, you know, we've seen many other projects in both maybe, for example, cannabis farming and you find that this is just an example. Then you find that their contract falls out and then you've got this massive structure that you've put an investment in, but now you can't grow anything else. So at what point would a farmer then have to come to greenhouse and say, I'm looking to build X type of structures for X specific crop? Would you then send them to the partners that you work with, maybe to provide a turnkey solution or some business strategy? And then they would buy the material from from greenhouse. Is that correct? Is that how it works? Yeah, so also what I'm going to say, I'm just. I'm a boy, the thing is, everything is, is crop specific. If you build a structure, it will actually, you see, you build a structure, a shade, a blueberry structure, it will be put up exactly for blueberries. So if you're going to change it to any other crop, you will have to change certain things. So usually if we advise a structure or we advise a tunnel or multi-span, it will be at four of a specific crop. So if you're going to grow stuff, you're going to chill us. They've got a lot to hire a load capacity because you have to chill us them and the weight has to be carried off the structure. So then again, everything is built specifically for a crop. Yeah, yeah. Dionne, you wanted to say something there as well? Yeah, lost my thought process there. Yeah, sorry, you were asking about, yeah, oh, sorry. Yeah, so obviously what, like I said, we don't do structures. Obviously we consult a lot. So consult. So we'll consult typically like 100 feet now. We'll say, okay, what's what, what do you want to grow? What's the plans? And then obviously make suggestions in terms of we'll go with this medium with this structure and then obviously refer to the, to the relevant parties or the relevant companies, contractors that can help them. So yeah, like with the irrigation, we don't do the design. So obviously refer to them to guys that can do a proper irrigation plan design and then obviously the same with the structure. So obviously we'll, we'll consult with them, advise them on the technical side, obviously like with 100 there. Obviously with all these knowledge, it adds a lot in terms of that. And then obviously then, then he needs to take it there. So I don't think it's we, we advise and consults, but when it comes to turnkey projects, then obviously that, I don't want to say we outsource it because we're not involved with the project, but we then obviously refer to the, to the relevant guys that we deal with and that we know that's up to do the job. And I want to ask Heinrich, once the shaping structures of the greenhouse are put up, you know, how long should a good structure last a farmer before they have to replace maybe, you know, the word, the net, the plastic, etc. What's the standard life cycle or of a good structure that's been erected on a farm? Look, I'll say a shade net, not getting big hail or big winds on that, almost at least last year, let's say 10 years or total of 10 years, where our plastic, we bought a warranty on our plastic for three years. That will typically last you four or five years, but I always tell the guys rather change the plastic every four years, because there's other properties in the plastic that are losing, they're losing light and they're losing production. But the structure, if you build a good multi-span structure, that will last you for, I know structures that have been there for 40, 50 years already. And the guys are still growing in there. So your more expensive structures, yes, it is more expensive to stop off with. But if you see how long you bought use of it, then it is in the long run, you're actually saving. Yeah, I heard you mentioned something about changing the plastics every four years, because they lose that light. Does the plastic itself deteriorate over some time? Look, you get your UV ultraviolet light that you call degrade your plastic. So it actually makes the color like opal. So let's say you've got a 85% total light transmission, the light coming through the plastic. And it actually, it will, it will lose some of those properties. Instead of 85%, it will only be 82% to 81%. Got it. Got it. Oh, thank you so much, Indra. Dionne, my last question for you this evening is, you know, you mentioned something about when people farm in greenhouses, they either opt for cocopeat, coia, and there's many various substrates to grow onto. What are just some of that? Maybe just if you could list them again and just maybe add some pros and cons, you know, I'm a farmer growing in bags, as you know, but currently using sawdust, you know, and would want to migrate eventually to using cocopeat. But just for people that don't know the technicalities around that, what are some of the pros and cons of farming in cocopeat versus sawdust? I think that we've lost Dionne now. But I'm sure, Heinrich, you could answer that question. You see here on the body, sawdust don't really hold water, so the water holding capacity is a lot lower. And then let's say the standard size for growing in sawdust actually 11 litres, if you're using a crop or you're growing like in coia, you can actually go down to a far, far one-half litre bag and get the same and even better results. We can go to a peat bag and actually go for a four litre bag and also have the same results. So it's all about the airflow porosity, which is AFP. And then also the captain iron and iron exchange capacity of the medium, where a sawdust nearly has nothing. So you over irrigate the whole time. You've got a lot of cycles and all the water you are losing and you're losing all the nutrients as well. Absolutely nutrients. Yeah. Yeah. OK, so just to sum that up again, because obviously sawdust, you're losing a lot of water. It doesn't have great water retention. And when you're losing a lot of water, you're obviously spending a lot from fertilizer and electricity adding more cycles. And what I heard you say is that you're buying slightly smaller bags if you're using the cocoa peat. So I think maybe there must be a little bit of cost saving where that is concerned, as opposed to 11 litre bags, bags that could hold much like almost twice the capacity of that of cocoa peat or coia. Yes. And what's the difference between this term cocoa peat or coia? Is it the same thing or different? I know peat is actually sphagnum peat. Sphagnum peat, the peat that we sell is between two and a half thousand and three thousand years old, which is sphagnum. The sphagnum we sell is sphagnum pepper sodium. That's a genus in specie. Where cocoa peat is actually coia and coia is from a coconut, coconut husk and a coia in it. And that's a product that's two years old. So people always get confused to think that peat is cocoa peat, that's not cocoa peat. It's actually called cocoa peat. So the peat is a little ball that is between the husks of the coconut. So it's not the same. So peat is two and a half thousand years old. The only mistake you can make with that is overwatering it. So it's very stable. It's got very hard buffering capacity. And the only salt or fertiliser in it is the one that we add in it. Where coia is very soluble and also a potassium stickle there. But the rewatering of coia is the best of any medium. So if you want to dry and medium out and rewater it, then coia is the best medium we can use. Right. And my last question for this evening as we wrap up the show, which has been so great, gentlemen, is I want to ask Ahainrich with with the coia or the peat for how long could you keep it on in your greenhouses and continue certain cycles as opposed to sawdust, which you have to replace every year? Look at all the things on what crop you are growing. Some guys growing in peppers, they actually use the bags for two years. And I've seen guys that try to use it two or three times for for cucumbers that doesn't work. And then also for tomatoes, because you do get diseases in the coia. But some guys use some of the coia and top the bags up again and they use a product like methamstodium to clean it or to sterilize it and reuse it. But it's mostly in the peppers and other other crops that the guys reuse it more than once. Yeah, yeah. Just just for disease diseases and for like like a crop on tomatoes. It's sometimes better to start to start clean. To start clean. Wow. And you know, people think that farming is just putting a plant in the soil. It grows and then everybody's happy. There's so much technical things that one has to really, really think about from structures to irrigation to the type of growing mediums. And we know that, you know, certain areas right now don't have the best soils anymore. You know, a lot of the soils have deteriorated erosion, etc. And so obviously trying to go the soulless route is very looking as it does look attractive. However, it does also come with some financial planning that is required in the entire production. But gentlemen, it's been great to have you. I know this conversation went quite fast and we didn't tackle some other aspects maybe that needed to be broken down for some of our audience. But I think we've just got the gist of the basics of undercover farming, what greenhouse technology does, the service offering, and it's a lot of materials around greenhouse farming rather. And it's good to know that greenhouses, people like Heinrich, you know, who are technologically, I think, informed in the various greenhouse structures versus various crops. And I think what puts ease and comfort to me is knowing that you've been around for many, many years, you know, for more than a decade. So you've obviously seen many farmers come and go and then with them farming different type of crops and seeing the various trends, not only in South Africa, but outside our borders as well. And so, yeah, I think that is it for me tonight. Thank you so much for your expertise and for your time this evening. I wish you a very good night ahead. Thank you. Thank you so much, Bolling. Have a wonderful night. It's a pleasure. Thank you, Heinrich. Dion, can you hear us? Oh, I think he has himself on mute there. Can you hear me now? Yes, I can. Yes. Yes. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry about that. No, thanks. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot for the invitation. Appreciate it. Appreciate your time. And yeah, let's let's do this again. But thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Yeah, I think the next time I should come out to greenhouse and we actually show the people, you know, for example, Koya, the difference between Koya and Peach, you know, the bags, et cetera, because again, farming is very visual. And, you know, people might need to think spatially around their farms and how it's based. But yeah, thank you for your time. And we'll definitely be in touch. Thank you. Thank you very much. Heinrich and Dion. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it, Bolling. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you. That was Heinrich and Dion from Greenhouse Technologies and we're speaking about undercover farming. Everything to know about undercover farming with different structures you need to have, whether it's greenhouse plastic tunnels or shade needs structures, the various crops that you could farm. And as the two gentlemen were saying, is that it really is crop-specific and area-specific. But what I could encourage you to do as a farmer, if you're looking to make an investment in greenhouse, or start off initially just farming under greenhouses, is that I think as much as due diligence that you possibly can, speak to various service providers, speak to greenhouse technologies, they will connect you with the right people to advise you on turnkey solutions and good strategies based on your business outcome, because it is based on the crop, your area, et cetera, and various tunnels come in different shapes and sizes and heights as well. And so if you have any questions, please reach out to the greenhouse Technologies crew. They go to their website and they've got various branches as well. And so, yeah, thank you so much for joining us this evening. I hope we can unpack this topic once again, but in a lot more detail and have some visual presentation for you to see in terms of what the gentlemen were talking about, if you just didn't understand the difference between Korko, Pete and Koya, et cetera. But that's it for me tonight. Join me on Thursday, as I am going to be joined by another wonderful guest and talking all things farming. That's it for me. Have a good evening. Take care.