 Okay, and we are live. I'm here with Frank DeFano. He has a small YouTube channel I believe you follow the carnivore diet rent That depends on your interpretation of the carnivore diet Do you eat like a zero carb all animal products diet? Yeah for the most part. I mean, yeah I mean in the past few weeks to months. I've experimented with raw milk and raw dairy products and stuff like raw honey That does contain some carbohydrate content to some degree, but strictly animal foods Okay, all right close enough. I'd call that carnivore diet really I know typically carnivore diet Especially like today and well in the last few months it focuses around skeletal muscle tissue and yeah That's two people actually to organs. No, and there are problems with that. So, um For today, I wanted the debate to focus around the health consequences of a diet like this the carnivore diet or whatever You'd call it that you're following We'll discuss things like heart disease diabetes cancer. I know you wanted to bring up nutrient deficiencies among vegans or something and That's a very that's a very like, you know, it's not a topic That's been researched extensively and just the bioavailability of those plant nutrients in general is It's it's tough to really have a definite answer on that, but we could definitely discuss it. Okay. Um, why don't we start there then? Yeah, sure. So my idea is that you know in if we look at Indigenous diets or just basically what humans even in the past hundred years, you know If we go back a hundred years What pretty much every group of humans had to eat was a base amount of animal foods in their diet to get these Vitamins and then they would consume, you know Whatever foods were local to the area, whatever plant foods they had access to prepared in traditional ways. So maybe if you were in Sweden you would have rye bread with Various dairy products occasionally meat and maybe some whatever seasonal vegetables or produce so the premise is that every Group of these humans needed these fat soluble vitamins from these animal foods in their diet and that was constant across all planes of People whether they had but they had whether it was dairy whether it was fish Whether it was some form of meat whether it was like the Australian Aborigines where they literally had like hundreds of different wild animal foods As well as thousands of different wild plant foods The one constant is that they got a base amount of fat soluble vitamins in their diet now What becomes questionable is we have access to through, you know modern science and Modern food accessibility foods and supplements and things that we never had access to before so that's where it gets really questionable about The bioavailability of those supplements and if we could actually replicate that nutrient profile in a vegan diet but the overall problem with this idea is Most people don't understand the importance of having a nutrient-dense diet and most people don't really place a value on these fat soluble vitamins so the whole premise is based off of something that not Many people are confident in or place an importance on in their diet in general Okay, um, you know like a hundred and a hundred years ago and further back than that vitamin D deficiency and iodine deficiency was incredibly common among Americans Yeah among Americans, but I'm mostly referring to when there were still kind of groups of Almost untouched people not on American diet. I mean like tribes people or hunter-gatherers. Yeah, yeah Like I don't really want to reference Weston Price's book here But that's kind of those groups of people I'm referring to like people that are still living like off the land so to speak not Not really city people or When you when you reference Weston Price, you're not actually Like he was a dentist so I'm assuming you mean like the type of people he studied not like I'm referencing Those specific groups of people and the diets he saw those people following Okay You don't think any of them ever suffered from nutrient deficiencies Not necessarily. I mean very each of those tribes had to obtain They had to do they had to go out of their way to get certain like in the case of iodine I mean, there were some African tribes that would they would gather seaweed and burn it to ashes and use that to get their iodine And and a lot of I mean tribes literally they'd fight over certain sources of food because they needed they had deficiencies and they needed to get these What whether it's vitamin or mineral I mean you what did you mention iodine and was the other one you said well I said vitamin D and iodine like those were two big ones Yeah, I mean that can I mean yeah, I mean not everyone had access to those Those like the fish liver and the those fish organs and tissues that contain large amounts of vitamin D3 So, you know, not every that's why we see, you know, there was varying height differences between those tribes And even in some cases, they a lot of them had very very high infant mortality rates where the child cannot get enough nutrition during the younger years I'm not denying that they didn't I mean it's not that they didn't have Nutrient deficiencies. It's just that in the ideal context when they were able to obtain the food they needed They were in good health Okay, do you have any evidence that nutrient deficiencies were less common among these sorts of tribes people compared to modern times? I mean, what's that's a very broad question. I mean you literally Yeah, I mean you'd have times where if like and I've read and this was when I was reading like some articles about Aborigines and they're like very kind of I guess not so moral practices and in like times when Famine if they gave birth to a child, they would literally take that child They would I mean they'd kill it and they'd feed it to the other There are other children, you know, very very Apparent just things that happen in nature, you know where animals go for weeks and months without food or Things happen and the crop wasn't good. There are plenty of examples of Nutrient deficiencies in indigenous groups But you know for the most part when these people, you know, these people were an excellent physical health in a lot of cases except for those specific examples Okay, what metric are you using to say they're in excellent physical health? Mainly physical physical facial development physical stature overall absence of degenerative disease Absence of degenerative disease, you know, according to the heart before before they are introduced to a Modern diet Okay, not necessarily modern diet before like refined foods and their their indigenous foods are replaced Atherosclerosis has existed in every population all throughout human history You should take a look at the horse study even pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer populations had atherosclerosis. So so there is a difference between the plaque build-up and Calcification of arterial walls there both those people actually those people actually from the from what I Don't know if I read exactly what you did But what I'm thinking in my mind those people literally had fat marbling in their arteries Yeah, had nothing to do with inflammation Yeah, that's because they're eating high amounts of saturated fat and cholesterol or at least enough to cause the build-up of atherosclerosis Are you trying to suggest that? Calcification of these plaques makes them dangerous and when they're not calcified. They're not dangerous. I Mean do we have I mean do we want to go into like what causes why heart diseases actually cause like the Like is that what you're suggesting here? Just repeat what you just said. Are you trying to suggest that? Calcification of these plaques is what makes them dangerous and they're not dangerous when the plaques aren't calcified No, I mean it's mainly the the inflammatory fats and oxidized fats rancid fats I Mean this this is not like this is not like a blanket statement I'm going to make like I'm in regards to just how Explaining how heart disease is caused and it's like literally like a 20-minute explanation to get people to understand that Okay, well no you agree that Ancient people including pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers developed atherosclerosis, correct So atherosclerosis the definition of it being the buildup of fats cholesterol and other substances in and on the arterial walls I think it's a different. I think they use a different terminology. I mean, I don't have that I'll have the I'm trying to think of what the reference was that I were they actually like because there's a difference between the physical having marbling and that in the walls that's not inflammatory versus the actual like what this definition of atherosclerosis is Okay, are you talking about stable versus unstable plaques? No, I'm not I'm talking I just I let me just do like there's like like I understand There's different degrees in atherosclerosis progression Like are you are you saying like their atherosclerosis wasn't severe? I'm saying the type of atherosclerosis they had we had nothing to an inflammation and was not harmful to their health What so atherosclerosis isn't harmful to your health unless it's causing inflammation We're not we're not talking about that's the thing. We're not talking about I'm not talking about atherosclerosis I'm talking about the type of marbling they had in their arteries or What do you mean by marbling in their arteries? I'm just one sec. I'm reading Do you have the do you have the you said the horse study? Yeah Let me find a link for you. This is like a this is like a really specific like this is a super specific topic that I didn't I didn't look into the specific references You should read the study atherosclerosis across 4,000 years of human history the horse study of four ancient populations and they found atherosclerosis even in pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers I Don't know what you mean by marbling along the arterial wall That's atherosclerosis when you have fatty streaks going across the arterial wall. That's atherosclerosis It sounds like you're kind of confused with what's the title of the what's the title of the horse study? Okay, let me ask you like horse study atherosclerosis across 4,000 years of human history the horse study of four ancient populations Or they do you know the ancient populations I'll stop your head Let's see ancient Egypt ancient Peru ancestral Plab loans of South Africa and the unagon of the Aleutian Islands Yeah, of the Aleutian Islands Okay, let me just do you have the I Don't know. I just know I have the abstract. I just don't have the full data Okay, well, you don't really need it. Um, they did find atherosclerosis in all of these mummified remains The point being is is the but this has nothing but I I don't know What I don't know what their diets were. I don't know. I don't know anything about these people to speculate on Well, that's fine, but you're making like that's fine But you're making the claim that ancient hunter-gatherer populations. They were in great health They didn't suffer from chronic disease. This is not ancient hunter guy. This is 4,000 years of ancient That's you can and certain ancient Egypt not have Ancient Egyptians and especially in this period. They weren't hunter-gatherers. I agree. They're very far from that This is this is neolithic. This is not really this study Well, I have which I just didn't want to I didn't even want to really go into this because your point is speaking on the modern medical terminology of atherosclerosis, but If you're saying that okay, let's let's hypothetically say that okay Let's say atherosclerosis is present was present in these hunter-gatherers even if it was What you know, what is like do you have like a reference for them dropping dead of heart attacks? Like I don't understand where you're going with this even if I do even if I can which it would probably take me a Few minutes of googling. I don't maybe even more than a few minutes I probably have to ask a few of my buddies if they know What the study I'm referring to was Even if I can prove that there is a difference between the marbling and the arterial walls of certain Indigenous tribes and hunters like let me see if I just Google Masai, okay, it sounds like you're confusing Mortality from heart disease with actual prevalence of the disease. Oh, no, I'm saying I'm saying the You're I'm saying that atherosclerosis Even if even if these people did have marbling the artist whatever it may be What what is what is your like? I don't understand. What's your end point? Like we know there's an My my point is you're trying to claim these people were in great health They didn't suffer from any chronic diseases when they did They didn't I mean they didn't suffer from degenerative diseases and they didn't have any well, what do you mean by degenerative disease? I mean, it's it's interesting because if you get Like there is there's a sky on the Joe Rogan podcast talking about how When the monkeys these monkeys started eating garbage they developed tuberculosis very rapidly over the course of a few generations and died but It's interesting that we see groups of Indigenous peoples that when whether it was European settlers or people from the countries that have subsisted at with like these diseases for periods these populations were literally even though they were in perfect health and On their Indigenous diets. They were completely wiped out by certain diseases. So that's because they didn't have close proximity to animals They didn't have agriculture. So they didn't actually get used to these diseases They didn't have that immune system built up. So they got wiped out. Yeah, I mean, I'm bringing that I was that is those the diseases you're referring to or you referring to just like Specifically and I still don't understand what you mean by degenerative disease. You mean like Alzheimer's? Yeah Alzheimer's back then Have you I mean, do you understand that any any sort of study done on an Indigenous group based off of mortality if Like are you saying they live to 30 40 years old only that's life expectancy? No, that's not average That is affected by infant mortality, but that was the average and these if you any Any like so if you look at any up any sort of tribe Indigenous Aborigines, there are plenty I mean the majority of these people barring Getting stabbed with a spear live into I mean, what's your measure for for life? It's like we have people dropping we have now we have babies getting cancer We have women miscarrying at rates higher than we've seen before We have all these modern problems than degenerative disease with young people dying and now explain degenerative disease I'm still not clear what you mean by that. Let me if you're going to say specific things Kind of modern in a sense that they've any disease that has raised over the past, you know 40 50 years from obesity to Diabetes arthritis Alzheimer's All all of those diseases for the most part that We can speculate our cause by modern lifestyle modern diets and things like that Okay. Well things like Diabetes it is largely affected by body mass if you're obese You're at a massively increased risk of diabetes Physical activity affects it so I wouldn't expect to find high rates of diabetes in hunter-gatherer Populations, even if they're eating a lot of animal products just because they eat so little calories their body mass is so low and they have my overall my overall point in this is if there were if there were consequences and any problems That we're seeing now from what your atherosclerosis things you're claiming Where is any evidence that that these problems occurred in these groups of people there isn't any horse like the horse study I just referenced and it's not Population has had atherosclerosis That's not that's 4,000 years neolithic is you know the neolithic period is what like 12 13,000 started This does not this has nothing to do with what I'm talking about Listen just because the like a certain group of people entered the neolithic age And started agriculture that doesn't mean every human population practiced agriculture around that time again That's I said with this study that you keep saying the horse study I don't have the whole abstract I can't read and I'm sure that they didn't even write down what these people were eating you don't know those things That's my point this study doesn't matter. Well, there's still pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer populations This is not this is this has nothing you don't know you're saying ancient Egyptians ancient Peruvians I'm not saying ancient Egyptians. No, some of the African ancient Egyptians ancient Peruvians and session we don't know the diets of these people and I can't look at the day This is no, but the point is that agricultural hunter-gatherer populations not the Egyptians, but the Africans But they're lumped together with these other people like this this study is not lumped together They they looked at their their rates of atherosclerosis in these mummies and the pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer populations Still had atherosclerosis. I'm saying I'm saying three different things pretty much about this study that I think makes it inadmissible from The lack of data I have to analyze this we shouldn't even look into it further to Hypothetically, even if they did have atherosclerosis and problems What is your like? What is your end summary that they just had atherosclerosis here? You don't have anything about, you know, they're their life expectancy the disease rates of these people what they died from You don't have that data and it's it's just simply looking at rates of atherosclerosis This is pointless. This is like I shouldn't have even got like yes This is exactly pointless I don't have this because if you actually wanted to talk on something specifically like this It would take like an hour or two of just looking at the data of the studies and and trying to make sense of it as opposed To making a blanket statement about atherosclerosis Frank I'm not like I don't think you understand what I'm saying You're making the claim that pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer populations didn't suffer from chronic diseases like heart I'm not making I'm not I'm I'm explaining to you that if you want to prove that this and I have to be apparently very specific if you want to prove there is some sort of detrimental effect of Atherosclerosis or any I'm not necessarily saying that I'm asking you to prove that Your idea of atherosclerosis and all these saturated fencing. Where is the body count? What is what is your basis? You know this going into this discussion. There shouldn't be any Frank Frank You're conflating Mortality from heart disease with prevalence of the disease if we were to go back a hundred years ago in this country heart disease deaths from heart disease would be massively reduced just because Prevalence of death from infectious disease was massively high So if you were to go back like 4,000 years and look at these ancient hunter-gatherer populations They probably had a high prevalence of heart disease because they enough saturated fat and cholesterol to build up plaques and their arteries But the rates of deaths from the disease were very very low because one the life expectancy wasn't long enough for heart disease to actually become Like clinically significant where they'd actually suffer heart attacks And they just die from everything else from infectious disease warfare injuries things like that and nutritional deficiencies Which I'm sure were quite common as you admitted to because these people did have to rely on See like just you know the food. They actually gathered You're completely basing this off of the the life expectancy that you're referencing Well, you're basing a lower life expectancy and that's part of the reason you can't just say they did have a lower life It's when you have to say that you have to show the data and say why they had a lower life expectancy Well, well the biggest factor is child mortality. Yes, but infant infant mortality So infant mortality means that their speculative age is what 60 70 80 once they passed that developmental stage That is Listen, there's two there's two ways of measuring average life expectancy There's a way where you include child mortality Which does obviously like especially in these populations excuse it more towards a much younger age And you can calculate it by life expectancy Once you reach a certain age. I think normally it's 12 or something But you can't you can't just say you cannot say These people had apheloscorrhosis and the reason they didn't die as a result of it Is because they didn't live long enough when you can't actually furnish information. I absolutely can life expectancy Study on the life expectancy and what the context is Well, what do you mean like even if we go back a hundred years? What is the data that you're looking at for life expectancy? What is that data you're you're talking about? Well, look Frank life expectancy has increased in modern times That's just an indisputable fact even when you account We're gonna let's move on to another topic. I'll ask this one more time if not Let's move on to something else you your basis is on That they didn't live long enough, but what like study or what article or what are you referencing for the life expectancy that you're saying What exact what group of people are you referencing? What? You're just making up numbers. That's what you're doing. Okay. No Frank I'm not referencing any particular research here. It's just well known that pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer populations had a lower life Expectancy because when you account no, no, no when you would even when you account for child mortality You're saying they live just as long as we do today if if the if that period of developmental Developmental period the child mortality was passed They would that's what I said they would live to 60 70 80 there's and this is leave I believe it ranges from 55 to 65 depending on the group You're you're referring to and then and then in it so let's say that it that is the hypothetical we and then you're saying That then they would have died from heart disease if they did live So where's all the the history of these people that did live past? Child stages and people that didn't get killed you're saying all of them every single person and all these tribes was killed before They had the chance to die of heart disease. That's a very very single one But ever so everyone that got to 70 would just drop instantly dropped out of a heart attack That's what you're saying. No, no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying prevalence of heart disease existed It's just that it didn't develop to the point where it's clinically significant I asked you like three times. Where is the where is the you know, where's the body count? Where's the like the problem is both what I'm saying both what I'm saying Hold on a lot both what I'm saying and both what you're saying Honestly at this point, there's no real merit to it And I like just to move on to another topic because we're both making statements about data that we're not a hundred percent sure on and that We can't reference. Can we move on to something? Well, no, this is actually kind of important Frank Like I want to know what you're actually trying to claim here Are you trying to suggest that pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer populations had the same average life expectancy as Modern humans even when you account for infant mortality. All right, let me see if this answers that question and We're not really even talking about Pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers. We're talking about people that were still living in almost like a primitive way where they would have You know, maybe they weren't completely hunter-gatherers like indigenous aborigines subsisting only off of wild plant and animal foods Maybe they were a group of people like like maybe the Gaelics who had 50 to 60 percent of their calories from fish And then they had a lot of oats and various Vegetables that grew in that area maybe like this group of people that once they And this is I mean, this is a group of people that might not have had such high infant mortality problems but once they got past that stage of Child development once they got past that then yeah, then they would live a happy healthy life pretty much it Let me see if I could find a study. I think off the top of my head Okay, Frank the point I'm trying to make here is heart disease did exist all across human history in every Population even when you look at pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers Or you can say No, listen, let me finish the argument You can make is that they had lower rates of deaths from heart disease But that doesn't really matter They had a lower average life expectancy and a higher risk of death from things like infectious disease Injury malnutrition literally every other thing was more likely to kill you from heart disease than heart disease And Part of that is because of their their overall diet and lifestyle like now I mean you can become incredibly obese eat insanely shitty processed foods So, you know, typically they wouldn't get heart disease develop heart disease as quickly, but it's still occurred And what I'm this is this is fucking comical man You're a whole basis for this argument They dug up a bunch of four thousand year old mummies and looked at their arteries Are you nuts man? This is this is this is completely fucking ridiculous I'm not talking about this this this anymore if you're using this study as a reference for this Okay, Frank. Did heart disease exist in ancient populations? Yes or no? I Mean, you don't have evidence for it. I don't have evidence against it. No, you don't that is not evidence for it Yeah, the first study I just referenced is evidence for it. They had atherosclerosis and if you want to want to keep referencing this study I have to know it's good research what these people are eating. No, it's not what they were eating No, Frank, it's completely irrelevant what they're eating. The fact is ancient populations had heart disease and These are not these are not these are not any groups of people that I would talk about or I would reference on my side of the argument That's why I've been saying for the past 20 minutes We should move on to something else if this is the studies we're gonna talk about and where if we're just gonna like Hypothetically speak about things is to me. This is pointless Okay I just want to make it clear that heart disease has existed in every human population throughout history Doesn't matter what their their diets were whether we know their diets The fact is heart disease in prevalent all throughout human history what this shoddy research that's been done on Mommy Let me go they do they found mummified remains and they they x-rayed them and they found They found atherosclerosis. How's that shoddy research? So what are we gonna you want to like fly over to Egypt? You want to dig up a few bodies and start looking at their heart from like three thousand years ago Like this is completely this to me. This study is just completely ridiculous and why even if Sorry Frank Frank listen, you're making a statement on some mummies dug up three thousand years ago and applying it to everything in the Past look Frank Frank Um Why is that a bad way of determining prevalence of heart disease in ancient populations? Do you have a better method of research that you're using the term ancient populations? And you're saying and this is a study doesn't agent. This is still in the Neolithic period This is not four thousand isn't ancient. I mean what depending on whatever your definition of ancient is But I'm not talking about ancient mummies. I'm talking about various indigenous groups that yeah, and that followed these diets And do you know what mummified means? Yes preserved Well, you can well no listen Mummified just means it it doesn't mean there's been some sort of human intervention in preserving the corpse like with the what the Egyptians did It just means it's remains of human being that have been preserved in in any manner Like in Africa for instance like you can find mummified remains that have just been buried in the sand and because it's so dry Their bodies fucking mummified is you don't have to like right so so Frank Um, I'm just asking you do you have a better better method of trying to figure out the prevalence of atherosclerosis in these ancient populations then digging up mummified remains and Seeing like doing a CAT scans or x-rays and seeing or MRIs And seeing whether or not they have atherosclerosis in their in their arteries My point is this like this whole idea. I think I've kind of explained this loosely over the past 30 minutes It's it's just this is not something that's relevant. You're taking this you're digging up People from 4,000 years ago. You don't know what they ate. You don't know what their lifestyle was You know, you don't know what the what diseases they were dying from you can't use this This is completely ridiculous Frank. That's completely irrelevant The point I'm making is these ancient people including pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer populations had high prevalence of atherosclerosis But you're lumping your doesn't matter Can't lump pre-agricultural which would be over 12 15,000 years ago with not necessarily Crazy Frank Frank not every single group in human history was at that the same level of technological advance advancement For instance what Rome was using Bronze Age technology well before Another group that actually There are still indigenous civilizations now, I think they're off the yeah, there are close to whatever But that's not the point is the point the point is it what I'm saying What if you what in my mind if you want to say this you would have to have a Specific reference from a period of time and my point that I'm staying with is we cannot we're specula all we're doing is Speculating with information that is not correct. That's all we're doing right now on this one information isn't correct if if you were to say to me that In these four specific people ancient Peruvians ancient Pueblans These four specific groups of people within the past few thousand years And we don't know how old this corpse was how all these people like we don't know They do that there are methods of determining what yeah, but I don't the point is I don't have I don't have the data You're not you're not giving me specific examples and going in depth on this data We don't have anything we can really reference and and make something reasonable out of it You're just making the statement saying that in these specific people within the past 4,000 years have a thrill sclerosis Okay, that doesn't apply to really what I'm talking about that doesn't apply You can't say that applies to all indigenous people. You cannot say Yeah, you can when you look at you can but it wasn't that long ago from that long ago from very different Backgrounds there were pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers And there were people from Neolithic era populations like the Egyptians. They all had high prevalence of atherosclerosis So it's very safe to assume that every other population in human history has suffered from atherosclerosis And this is the best data available The only way to look at atherosclerosis prevalence in ancient populations is to find mummified remains Do an MRI on their corpses and see whether or not there like their arteries are clogged with This has nothing to this literally does not matter because it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about bringing up something like Like This is not a point I would talk on like I'm not I'm not disagreeing with you that I'm not disagreeing I had atherosclerosis for these in these Mummified remains from 4,000 years ago to now. It will not disagreeing. I'm saying that it's pointless to talk about this Frank Is there any population in the world that doesn't have any Mount atherosclerosis prevalence? What can modern or ancient I'm not talking that we've been talking for 40 minutes about this bullshit topic And we've really kind of come to this is just a waste of my time. It really is like okay Well, no Frank. You're trying to claim that these people eating a traditional diet quote-unquote that were mostly hunter-gathering They had really low rates of disease and I'm trying to point out. That's not the case. They have high prevalence of atherosclerosis So clearly what they were eating was causing them to have disease now whether or not they died from those diseases is a different thing But they did have these diseases. You're saying these groups of people had atherosclerosis But the study you're showing has nothing to do with the people I'm talking about Okay Well, do you have any evidence that the people you're talking about? Did not suffer from atherosclerosis atherosclerosis? this is the the burden of proof is not on Whether or not they had atherosclerosis because you're doing studies on people that you don't know what their diet is That is my the whole basis of me explaining this is that they are on a particular diet To tell me what the diet is if you're not able to tell me specifics then Well, Frank, okay, show me like a hunter-gatherer population or whatever population of people you want Show me that they don't have like atherosclerosis or it's incredibly insignificant among their culture Wish I had time to do this instead of sprints Google and studies don't have no exist Okay, Frank. I think you know it's very safe to assume that atherosclerosis has existed all throughout human history in Because the atherosclerosis existed in the mummies your buddies dug up for the past 4,000 years. That's what you're saying Okay, well, do you have any evidence otherwise like again? This is the only evidence we have The only way to measure atherosclerosis prevalence in ancient people is to dig up mom I just googled I've never looked at this before abstract is The hearts in a order of 50 messiah men were collected at autopsy. These pistol people are exceptionally I'll link. Does there a chat in Google Hangouts that I could yeah, there is Here you go The meat intake Do you want me to read it? Do you want the meat intake of animal fat exceeds that of American men measurements of the order showed extensive atherosclerosis with lipid Infiltration and fibrous changes, but very few complicated lesions the coronary artery showed intimate thickening by atherosclerosis Which equal that of all the US men the messiah vessels enlarge with age to more and compensate for this disease It is speculated that messiah are protected from their atherosclerosis by physical fitness, which causes their coronary vessels to be capaceous Frank they have heart disease the study you just linked me It means that they have high prevalence of heart disease And so this is what this is what I was This is why I was asking you earlier that you need to show What why these people aren't dropping dead of heart like there's no data showing that these people are we're dropping that It doesn't matter Frank. It doesn't know no Frank Frank that what matters is prevalence of disease There are a lot of different things that can modulate deaths from disease including life expectancy Rates of death from other illness, but they do have heart disease I feel like I feel like people are gonna feel like this is has not been productive so far So can I try to like just explain what I think you're trying to get at and then what I'm trying to get at real quick sure sure so Initially my point was to kind of say okay Yes, they have atherosclerosis and build up of arterial plaque in the wall But it would be very difficult from our modern understanding of medicine to explain why these people are not dropping dead of heart Attacks, but they evidently were not despite modern evidence saying that atherosclerosis does cause heart disease now For me to say something like in this in this study that says the messiah vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for disease For me to say that these people Yeah, for me to say that these people are immune to the disease is Is not really to me that is not like to me a marketable or like something that would be Something that people would just take for granted as The atherosclerosis and the heart disease and the plaque build up in the arterial wall has been something that's been shown in such a negative light Especially in the context of modern medicine whereas it's something that would in these people it occurs naturally They have and and they have no problems with it. Oh, well, they do It's just that typically the enlargement of their blood vessels compensates for this also again Higher prevalence of Disease in in other aspects like infectious disease. It might modulate their risk of death from heart disease You also have to consider like these people have a very different lifestyle. They eat very low calorie diets They also use a lot of medicinal herbs and medicine and they also often suffer from infectious diseases including things like malaria and That does affect risk of death from heart disease Because a lot of these diseases actually reduce serum cholesterol. Yeah, there's like there's a group of people that are like immune to malaria, right as well Um, you hear about that completely immune. I mean they have it but like they don't really suffer from it Well, it's it's because of sickle cell anemia a lot of Africans have it So yeah, like I mean there's adaptations in these in these sorts of cultures to the diseases in the area but I mean um that also can modulate The risk for some of these diseases. I mean, okay, the messai they're Their blood vessels widen somehow with age That could be a genetic thing that could be an effect of like their specific lifestyle of eating a very very low calorie diet But you have to understand most of the all of these indigenous groups that I'm referring to subsisted on What we eat now if not less than the amount of calories we eat now and they were all Similar in regards to their levels of physical activity and physical stress that they had to make lives I mean the constant between these people that are immune to these diseases is those factors They tend to eat low calorie diets and they're also often infected with Parasites and infectious diseases particularly malaria and those two things reduce serum cholesterol And serum cholesterol is the principal risk factor for heart disease so again Like you can reference these tribes people all you want But you're not really understanding their real diet lifestyle a disease prevalence and how that affects heart disease risk again Like looking at the messai You can't just say oh saturated fat and cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease Because the messai eat a very low calorie diet They have a proportionately high amount of physical activity very low body mass And they also often suffer from infectious diseases and parasitic infections like that just that claim just doesn't make any sense so in regards to if the only way that wouldn't make sense is if the parasitic diseases you're referencing and the the Malaria and stuff which wasn't present in these people specifically We can I don't know if we could assume that but It's if those parasites and those suffer from malaria. I mean it's I wouldn't I don't know if that's a blanket term for all messiah but those previous factors you mentioned Don't really matter because those can be replicated But the malaria if the malaria and the sickle cell thing was proven to be that literally the only reason why they're alive then That's a different discussion to be had but if that can't be said then it doesn't really you know like I mean from Like what is what is the point of you saying that these people were on like a low calorie diet that was restricted that because Well, are you implying that are you implying that are you implying right now that just if people follow the carnivore diet now They're just over consuming way too much meat and that's this isn't relevant because I agree with that. That's the case No, my problem is if you're eating any like pretty much any amount of meat You have to be on a very very strict plant-based diet to not cause progression of atherosclerosis And especially if you're on a very heavy meat diet like you are even if you're eating things like organs and things other than skeletal muscle your your intake of saturated fat and cholesterol is Way way too high and you're you're causing a build-up of plaques in your arteries Which will eventually lead to like clinically significant heart disease where you're gonna have an increased risk of heart attack stroke So let's say hypothetically I Replicate the exact lifestyle of the messiah with the exception of having you know sickle cell anemia and Parasitic infections they don't all have sickle cell and sickle cell is actually a big risk factor for stroke Well, let I mean so Let's say I do Replicate the lifestyle and diet of the messiah. Would you believe that I would develop these Conditions where I would be pretty much you think so even the study you just referenced it said they have high prevalence of heart disease It's just that as they age their vessel walls and large I don't know why that happens. I'd actually like to see other research on this, but You would still get heart disease they like the study you referenced yourself says they have very high prevalence of heart disease It's just that a lot of them get away with it because of confounding other confounding factors So why would that not apply to my diet right now? Why would I mean? You don't have the same you don't have the same diet and you don't have the same lifestyle. I Mean how sure of that are you? Well, do they eat cheese? Do the do they steak every day? I don't I mean I should have made one thing very clear before this I follow Pretty much. I mean my diet if you compare it to a messiah, it's pretty much the same thing. It really is I I've seen daily like I've seen a few of your food vlogs. No, it's not well what I ate yesterday was I had I Had some I'd stood I stood the vertebrae of lamb and then I had a little liver and some other organs And that's all I ate small amount active all day you ate lamb liver and what else? The vertebral column the spinal cord I boiled it down in in a pot with and then just had the meat So you ate lamb skeletal muscle tissue you had liver you know, I mean Most people don't I mean people don't really eat that vertebral tissue. It has a lot of collagen a lot of High vitamin fat. There's just tissues in there That would be kind of this is something that like a tribesperson would and then the day before that I just had a bunch of organs and some blood and and that was really it but my diet for the most part has been Majority, you know, I have organs every day majority my calories come from fairly lean Well, not majority of my calories, but more fluffly half my calories come from skeletal Meat and in the past I used to have a lot of raw dairy too as that So I would say my diet is very very different than what most carnivores and zero car people are following Well, I'd agree with that I'd still say it's quite a bit different than the messiah They like their primary calories calorie sources milk and blood they tend to avoid killing their cattle And you know, they do occasionally eat steak and shit and they also do consume medicinal herbs in their region But the point is their diet causes heart disease, so why would you eat a diet that causes heart disease? It's just that for whatever reason, maybe it's confounding lifestyle factors or maybe they have a Some sort of genetic like a genetic resistance to the disease where their arteries will actually expand They get they get away with not dying from heart disease at a very high rate But the prevalence of heart disease is extraordinarily high So why would you eat a diet like that when there's ways of just like avoiding heart disease entirely? Well, I can I can answer that in sec, but I did want to ask you what would be You know, you're saying the messiah get a lot of their yeah, they do consume a Lower calorie diet. They do get the majority of their calories from much more nutrient-dense foods But what would be the concern about I mean, yeah, I mean, I obviously agree that eating You know two three pounds of grain fed ribeye from Costco is completely ridiculous, but in just regards to like what would be the reason specifically that you think that would be So much worse just in the context of diet like let's say you took a messiah tribesman And he just ate the grain fed steak a day instead of what he was eating. Why would that be? I'm just trying to It's not necessarily worse. I'm just saying Like these diets that are high in saturated fat cholesterol they cause heart disease and the the research you linked to me Demonstrates that they have very high prevalence of heart disease So why would you eat a diet that causes heart disease when you can avoid it entirely by eating a relatively low fat whole foods vegan diet? well, I mean What I spoke about earlier where every group of people had a base amount of fat soluble vitamins in our diet in order to be in What I would consider have proper physical development proper physical health It's just that base Fat are you like me like more like personal like me why I do it or as opposed to like just like because right now I'm trying to explain why someone would do it as opposed to just me personally No, why would well? Why would you or anyone eat a diet? Okay, I'm saturated fat and cholesterol which has been proven to cause heart disease When you could avoid heart disease entirely because those are the only foods accessible really in nature that have the vitamins and Well, mostly vitamins require it to just survive. That's basically it okay so what nutrients can you not get on a vegan diet and Would that would the lack of these nutrients actually reduce Or sorry increase like all-cause mortality risk to the point where it's more worth it from a health perspective To eat a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol which causes heart disease as opposed to eating a vegan diet Which lowers your risk of chronic disease? But supposedly you won't get enough of these nutrients and that that'll cause health health problems. So I mean This goes back to what I said earlier about, you know, now we have access to modern supplements and Extracts of the certain vitamins that can be used on a V I mean no one I've literally never seen a vegan that takes all these supplements, but I Theoretically we could what do I need as a vegan? Yeah, I mean theoretically we could replicate. I mean Under the assumption you get vitamin D3 from the Sun Well listen Virtually every group of people is vitamin D deficient Yeah, I agree with that. You're talking about now, right? Sorry, you're talking about like now. I Think it's existed all throughout human history Some few exceptions, but why would you think why would you think people who spent like five eight ten hours a day outside a day? We're vitamin D deficient. Oh like they're being studies on friggin Californian surfers and they're still vitamin D deficient. They spend all day in the sun Like almost naked. I mean but a Californian surfer is not like so you need other you need other Vitamins and minerals and things to metabolize vitamin D3. It's not just Right, I understand that but it's it's not very reliable to rely on just the Sun for D3 And that's why there's a massive prevalence of vitamin D deficiency Especially with people who have darker skin think in the United States like 83% of blacks have vitamin D deficiency So it's just a good idea to supplement D3. I agree. Yeah, I mean I think Frank Frank. Here's the issue Let's say like certain like these certain fat soluble vitamins You can only get it from animals or you take a supplement. Yeah Why is the supplement worse than eating the animal products that also come along with saturated fat cholesterol? Which increases heart disease risk? Yeah, I could speak on each of them individually. So vitamin D3 I'm not I don't you know I looked into what the deep the vegan version of D3 was made from and I honestly couldn't It's made from like a type of fungus It's a type of fungus But yeah, that's to me that doesn't make sense because I didn't know that I thought D2 occurred in fungus I didn't realize it was D3 D2 occurs in fungus But there's also a certain type of fungus that produces D3 Yeah, so I mean in the case of like D3 made from these foods or ladle in sheep's wool They you have to use hexane They have to use solvents to extract the D3 and then they use a carrier oil And I usually just rub the oil on my skin. So I don't necessarily think that the the supplements are Too harmful, but what I've noticed per like I've personally had insomnia problems when I just take a supplement Without the present without the presence of the other fat soluble vitamins. Okay, so what what supplement are you talking about? Just any like D3 and M in any sort of olive oil or whatever Okay, I mean what's what I mean? I'm just curious. What's the I mean the D3? I agree with you And I think everyone should supplement D3. So do you want to just go to the other part of it? Well, yeah I remember you mentioning on Twitter's like when you DM to me you mentioned vitamin a in particular. Yeah, so Vitamin a in the form of retinoic acid to my understanding the only supplement that comes close might be retinopomatate and it retinoic acid is used we know it's used for a lot of Just cell functions in the body in general and we know that the body does convert carotenoids to retinoic acid at various rates depending on the food in the context that you know a small amount of saturated fats are present but Nothing to me indicates either from my personal anecdotes. We're consuming large amounts of carotenoid foods with fat and Studies that I've looked at and the problem I have is that it's questionable We don't really have data shown, you know, we know some groups of people can't metabolize the carotenoid To buy to retinoic acid at all and we know that this form of retinoic acid in humans is just incredibly important for Health in general. Okay. Do you have any research showing that vegans have a higher prevalence of vitamin a deficiency than meat eaters? I mean, it's not necessarily about in this discussion about vitamin a it's not really about deficiency. It's about You know having a high vitamin a content can kind of just help met up optimize just your whole metabolism in general and I mean Okay, you know human human store human store Fatsiable vitamins in their liver and their tissues. So I think to answer that question We would have to literally have data on You know the liver the vitamin a store in the liver of a vegan versus different people we'd need data to Vegans have lower vitamin a status, but they don't have lower rates of vitamin a deficiency and That's not associated with increased prevalence of any type of disease Your body. Yeah, listen. No, listen, let me let me finish Your body regulates vitamin a production because you need a range of it too little is harmful too much is harmful I can cause liver problems and also bone abnormalities and It like it's especially a risk for women because they have a higher risk of bone diseases But your your own body synthesizes vitamin a and it regulates vitamin a production So those those little problems and listen, listen, well, listen, let me finish So why would you take like a fully formed source of vitamin a and consume that to ensure that you're not vitamin a Ate efficient when your body regulates this process very well on its own Increasing risk of having too much vitamin a in your in your system You mean you what you're saying you mean consuming like liver is a risk for too much vitamin a Whereas if you just get the plant form your body will regulate it properly. Yeah, okay So my problem with that is all and let me just find my my studies on it Any and all that those bone problems the liver problems all those things you're associated with vitamin a toxicity or actually With the plant form supplement those are not with There's the case there. Yeah, that's though. That's what you're referring to the No vitamin a so vitamin a supplements are either come in the form of fully formed retinol or they come in Just the crotinoid form The crotinoid the crotinoid form isn't dangerous because again your body has to Your body has to produce the fully formed vitamin a itself All those things are associated with high high vitamin a supplementation. That was my point Yeah, typically, but most people aren't eating liver every single day Yes, so my Con so my point is that any case there has never been a case of or any data showing that consumption of I Mean and there's plenty of people on this diet that consume pounds and pounds of liver per day and they don't Illustrate symptoms that these people do where do you have any research? This is sounding like anecdotal claims. Yeah, I have it right here So I made up a post on I'm gonna link this to you. I made a post on reddit showing several hyper vitamin osis a studies in people that took Plantforms versus people that consumed carnivorous fish liver and when they consume the carnivorous fish liver it was symptoms actually associated with heavy metal poisoning as opposed to as opposed to the actual hyper vitamin osis a and There has been no research that I've been able to find that indicates that you can Your body will not be able to regulate excess intake of vitamin a but this isn't really this isn't I don't know How relevant this is just to my idea that High vitamin a consumption through retinolic acid is beneficial for overall metabolic function. That would be More difficult for you to prove outside of anecdotes Like I'm just quickly looking over the studies you linked me This is all with like case reports where people were consuming vitamin a supplement supplements Do you have like anything in the form of maybe? Like do you have case reports involving like just very high liver consumption? Or maybe like a randomized trial ideally the only thing in on the first part of that the first link Let me just double check The first the first link the first link in that post is the carnivorous fish liver reports That's all that's really there wait a second Okay, the first link I saw was a Pediatric case study where a child was just consuming a toxic amount of vitamin a through supplementation Let me just You mean 23 month old Chinese go presented to the emergency room of vomiting irritability She consumed four pieces of fish liver the night before that's not what you're looking at. Oh, okay Yeah, okay, so This is a cute vitamin a toxicity from consuming fish liver Well, we don't know if it's necessary because those are also symptoms that they Showed from that you could get from copper toxicity as well Her grandfather who ate the fish liver had similar symptoms. Yeah, this is fish high in copper the prop Well, no carnivorous fish liver is very high in heavy metals and the point of The point of this showing this study that ingesting carnivorous fish liver is not a good idea is that? Carnivorous animals accumulate incredibly high amounts of vitamin a and copper and these metals in comparison to normal Ruminants and normal livers that we would be eating More along the lines of dozens to hundreds of times higher So by looking at this and what happens to these people that consume this carnivorous fish liver If if hyper vitamin osis a was possible on a zero-carb carnivore diet We would see these symptoms in people more often. Okay, there's acute toxicity and there's chronic toxicity And they're both harmful But this seems like fish liver causes acute toxicity where it's much harder to do with something like beef liver But you have people literally consuming on this diet People I've seen people eating half a pound to a pound of beef liver a day for months Okay, and and this and there's no evidence that like again These are anecdotal claims. I'd like to actually see a case report or something at the very least I mean, I'm in the you know, I'm in the same boat as you I know the liver does regulate. I mean, you said earlier the liver regulates your vitamin a intake, but I Mean my I don't know why I went into this The only real point I had was that there are benefits to consuming high vitamin a that many people see and this is again completely anecdotal Just because vitamin a in the form of retinolic acid is using so many metabolic processes and the liver has a Version of it. That's more available to the body But to me this wasn't really listen this this like really ultimately comes down to overall health outcomes Do you have any evidence that consuming vitamin a through carrots or sweet potatoes is less healthful? Then consuming it through something like liver like beef liver. It's not necessarily that it's less healthful It's just the bioavailability in a lot of context is questionable about how well availability is Like it's a throwaway term What matters is whether or not you're getting an adequate supply of vitamin a there's no data showing that vegans have Like higher rates of vitamin a deficiencies compared to meat eaters and the point being like are you really telling me that sweet potatoes and carrots Aren't aren't as healthy as beef liver Well, that's that's a different. That's a very different question because beef liver is pretty much nutritionally complete But my the reason I didn't really want to complete you can have something that's nutritionally complete But it's terrible for you. I didn't want to touch on that. I didn't really want to debate this I just wanted to bring up The post it was more like bringing it up and possibility because I said earlier It's very difficult because of the lack of data we have to talk about these things I just wanted to bring them up as kind of an idea more as opposed to actually debating on whether or not It's necessary because I don't have an answer for that and you don't have an answer for that Well, yeah, I do vitamin a prevalent or sorry prevalence of vitamin a deficiency isn't any higher among vegans and Things like carrots and sweet potatoes They're protective against chronic disease or something like beef lever liver is not Where I well then I I mean it you I you could say that but by answer I mean something based off of evidence. I could say something like well beef liver has a much higher retinoc acid content that is bioavailable to the body so Whether or not you're getting a questionable amount of vitamin a that's ideal for the body is out of the question You're definitely getting plenty of vitamin a and then your body can deal with whatever excess you have and I believe well That's important for being optimal in regards to metabolic function and health and that the RDAs for a lot of things are inaccurate and that most people would see a benefit from Higher retinoc acid consumption that it would be my answer to that And we had our answer. Well, listen, where's the evidence that high? High vitamin a intake and the form of fully formed vitamin a where's the evidence that it's beneficial. I Mean, if you just I mean if you just want to talk about like what it does in the body There's I mean retinoc acid. I know I know what it does in the body I'm just saying why is vitamin a intake that bypasses your own body's regulatory mechanisms Why is eating a super high amount of it beneficial? It I mean retinoc acid is still regulated It still has to go through various forms before your body utilizes it and the read the the whole premise of this was Retinoc acid has a lot of functions in the human body. It's very very important and Great, but yeah, why is it a good thing to eat a super high amount of it? Like it's bypassing your body's regulatory mechanisms again. No, not because yeah body regulates Well, it is Again, you like you can suffer from acute and chronic toxicity from it like if you don't get chronic if you don't get acute toxicity from vitamin a you can also get like chronic toxicity where it causes bone abnormalities and Chronic toxicity can occur at intakes only two times the daily RDA recommended intake So it's pretty low again Like I'm not seeing any evidence that eating a super high amount of vitamin a Is at all beneficial Like like again vegans don't have a higher prevalence of vitamin a deficiency I don't see any evidence that a super high intake of vitamin a where it's at the point of chronic toxicity would be at all beneficial and Again, like these foods you're talking about carrots and sweet potatoes are a lot more healthy and they protect against chronic disease Whereas liver like causes chronic disease As as I said twice so far these were things that I just wanted to bring up and speculate on the bioavailability of it and Saying that okay if you eat liver you're certainly getting enough of these vitamins So there's nothing to be concerned about this wasn't uh, this wasn't a debate of whether or not it's important to get these super high levels of vitamin a because There's hasn't really been studies on that and there's no way for me to prove outside of anecdotes that it's important to Okay, but it does not retinol does not bypass regulation It it needs to go to retinol and then it needs to be oxidized to retinoic acid. It does not buy Beta carotene It's you consume you consume the vitamin a from the food it goes into retinol then retinolic acid Then your body can utilize it the carotenoids. It's an extra step. It's not necessarily Retinol retinolic acid in the animal foods is not necessarily bypassing beta carotene requires an extra step Well, it is again if you're not suffering from acute toxicity you can suffer from Chronic toxicity and chronic toxicity occurs at only twice the RDA Recommended daily intake well since I only have the anecdotes of myself eating up like two pounds of the liver a day for a week Let's let's try to put that on the back you know what I'll link you this This paper the acute and chronic toxic effects of vitamin a I think you should actually read that Because chronic vitamin a toxicity is quite common. It happens at only twice the RDA intake you can think you're you're completely fine But this can cause problems like bone abnormalities later in life So you should actually read that because you're like I don't even know what you're trying to say here Are you just trying to say well if you eat liver you'll get enough vitamins? Like who cares no the the overall idea but between bringing up this vitamin thing is that Even in the context of people on the carnivore diet They would see a lot of benefits and energy and overall metabolic function from consuming a higher amount of vitamins in this bioavailable form Now the the thing is I guess something else to bring up would be okay let's say you get your sweet potatoes and your coconut oil and theoretically you can metabolize it but we're in nature would we see These carotenoids where we can metabolize them in our digestive system in a natural way Like how would you actually and I know this doesn't really apply because we have modern methods and modern science and supplements We can use to try to replicate this but where in like an a natural setting Would we see the possibility of getting carotenoids in present present with fat in from a vegetable source? That's available to pretty much all groups of people Okay, well Frank you don't need to consume like an overt source of fat immediately when you eat Like pro vitamin a carotenoids to convert carotenoids into vitamin A. Yeah, but where would you be getting a? non-animal source of fat as well as a large amount of carotenoids and energy you really don't need much fat to be able to absorb these fat soluble vitamins so You're telling me that someone is going to have access for a full for the problem Well grains are out of the really kind of out of the picture because what do you mean out of the picture to get? The the fat content of a grain would would that even be the right? It has to be saturated fat to my understanding to metabolize No, not necessarily and like there is like there's a small amount of fat in in some grains, too I know I know that for sure I'm not since that's not like algae, but it's but the the term I said Accessible to all groups of people and that includes climate at various parts of the year So obviously things like nuts and grains Like what does this even matter vegans don't have a higher prevalence of vitamin a deficiency because the point was that you can't obtain Vitamin a in nature At very in various locations and at various points of the year. It's just something to think about from Like you're referencing. Well, Frank like I mean who cares if we can't get it in nature It's clearly ideal for health well Like I say who cares about studies done on mommy's 4,000 years ago Disease prevalent like the prevalence of heart disease has like there's been a high prevalence of heart disease all throughout human history But now but now when I say that Since we can't get carrots noise in a natural state and humans would have never obtained them from carrots noise and fat in This way, then it just doesn't matter. Is that what you're saying? No, like again, all I like all I really care about is Reducing risk of chronic disease being healthier living longer. Why would I care if some like Primitive proto-human couldn't get vitamin a from a carrot because all the indigenous because every Indigenous group required vitamin. I mean vitamin a was present all these diets and in the case of like studies done on pigs If if an animal is vitamin a deficient in birth, I mean, there's obvious vision problems. They're born without I really have eyes vitamin a deficiency doesn't occur at a higher rate among vegans. No, but the point is that in nature You would be vitamin. You wouldn't have enough vitamin a to survive on a vegan diet I don't care and that's a dubious claim to begin with so So I mean for the most part I do agree with you I agree that vitamin D3 can be supplemented I think that in the context of an optimal vegan diet the vitamin a should not be a concern in regards to the vitamin K2, I mean that can be supplemented as well and What was well, wait a second. Are you claiming vegans don't get enough vitamin K2? I mean depending on the fermented food intake it varies between vegans Okay, so between fermented soy beans like natto, which actually has one of the highest amounts of vitamin K2 you can possibly get from any food or Like what's high in K2 like grass-fed butter or something or are you asking like what what's Animal foods is all what or what like I would just bring in between Natto, which is a source of K2 and between and something like grass-fed butter or beef liver What is a healthier source of K2? Well, well, there's you know, there's a different MK change like MK 7 MK 4 and natto is MK 7 Which needs to be converted to MK 4 so in in liver it It is I mean more available in that context what the body can still convert it The only reason I brought up the K2 thing was because it's just like the carotenoids It's present in nature only in animal foods Whereas now we have modern versions of foods that we make that we never really saw before to obtain the vitamin okay Vitamin K2 is produced in your gut by your gut bacteria, which is why it's it's virtually impossible to suffer vitamin K deficiency as an adult And yeah, it is present in fermented foods like natto. So why would you eat something like beef liver or butter? rather than getting K2 from natto if you're concerned about K2 because you're isolating a Food that is very specific to one part of the world that is Can be very inflammatory to some people and that some people are allergic to and cannot consume and Some people don't even like some people out. Well, some people are allergic to soy and some people are also allergic to animal products So what does that mean for like I'm talking about the general population? Because overall if if you're saying okay vitamin K2 is in literally like 20 animal products I can list versus only pretty much one source of that's a vegan source or it needs to be supplemented You know people would start to question about You know, okay, if all of these vegan things I need to supplement or You know very well no but if all these vegan things either need to be supplemented or neither either need to be obtained from a Very specific food source that cannot really be practical for all parts of the world in every person How can you it's hard to justify the nutrient availability and density of these people's diets? Well, I don't really care what people think is more convenient. I care about what's healthier Why is it healthier? Well, well if you even think this Why is it healthier to consume K2 from something like liver or grass-fed butter as opposed to natto or take a supplement? Because you get the different MK chains. I mean, okay, um Frank that really be the only reason okay, Frank The research on K2 is very mixed positive findings have only come out of one single country And the majority of research is showing that K2 intake is associated with a higher risk of heart disease And that's because generally people people are getting their K2 from things like butter, liver Terrible foods that increase risk of heart disease. I think I mean the main reason I brought up K2 was because it's important for the Calcium regulation in the body and I know that a lot of that and that's why I'm just saying this for the stream I'm saying this because I think that a lot of people especially on the standard American diet and the carnivore diet Consumed too much calcium without K2. So that's just something I wanted to bring up not necessarily in the context of vegan versus animal Well, Frank so K2 it's not picked up It's not filtered out of your bloodstream like K1 is and it bonds to a specific protein that carries calcium and that's why It's sometimes associated with lower risk of calcification in the arteries Which is like a huge risk factor of like mortality from heart disease But the thing is there have been mixed findings Positive findings have only come out of one country I think it's the Netherlands if I'm not mistaken But there are studies that have been conducted in Germany where K2 intake is associated with heart disease And the reason for that is likely because people are getting K2 from terrible sources like beef liver butter and these foods cause heart disease so the the take-home message here is You should have you should look at the overall health effect of these foods and overall diet and not just focus on like these specific nutrients So quality of food really matters here if you want to get K2 then you should get it from Nato or take a supplement Like you're much better off Than eating something like butter which has been proven to literally clog your arteries and you're basing You're basing everything you just said off of a study that you said was done in Germany Germany showing that higher K2 does what? It increases risk of heart disease But that's just I you're saying a higher K2 Increases risk of heart disease, but Nato is much higher in K2 than any of those animal foods They would have likely been eating. It's literally 10 times higher. It's multiple times. Yeah Yeah, so why wouldn't you just eat like K2 from soybeans when the K2 is higher for one thing and Fermented soybeans don't increase risk of heart disease whereas things like butter do but why would you say you should eat a food? That has a hundred times the amount of K2 and Then say that higher K2 is associated with heart disease that just doesn't know and then try to relate it But you can't say that and then relate it. You're misunderstanding No, let me clarify Let me clarify their diet and the foods they were eating, right? That's what let me let me clarify the K2 Well, let me clarify for you Kate like the majority of the time people are getting their K2 from animal products like butter certain cheeses Like liver shit like that. So when you do a population study on K2 intake I'm really doing. I'm sorry. Do you see that? Can you let me know that study? Thank you. Let me see if I can google it well, I can link you a big article on vitamin K and the research links are in that article, but positive findings have only been coming out of one country there might be like a multiple like confounding factors and reasons for that but Research in other countries has shown K2 intake is associated with an increased risk of heart disease And that's likely because they're eating more foods that cause heart disease like butter Like liver garbage like that. So K2 intake like among the general population With like these common foods like butter cheese liver. It is associated with with heart disease in research coming out of every other country But like the mechanistic data suggests that K2 is protective against heart disease So again the take-home message here is that you should get K2 from good quality plant sources I'm sorry. What was the what was the You said, do you know what country the study the K2 was in and where they said it was beneficial It was the Netherlands Okay, so I'm looking at a study right now that says a problem with K2 can be interactions with various medications Like it's because vitamin K2 is essentially an anticoagulant So we would assume that if a country has is more has higher, you know Rates of taking certain medications that if they have a that vitamin K2 intake would be associated Inversely, so I think that's a pretty good explanation for why we might see problems with vitamin K2 So wait, how does it interact with a medication where it would increase risk of like death from a heart attack? Well, that's the snow. No, but but I think it sounds vitamin K2 versus anti-coagulant and But there are medications that Kind of work against I mean, I can't listen man. I'm not a biochemist. I can't explain that specifically That makes sense. But again Like this just shows more than anything that you shouldn't really you should be careful with supplementing K2 Or even in taking K2 from any source So this isn't really a good argument for eating animal products No, but that could be an explanation of why right most of the why there was an association with the K2 and the increased Mortality, right, but given how given how the data is currently mixed and these foods like butter cheese liver They're high in saturated fat cholesterol and heme iron. They've been proven to cut increased risk of heart disease Why would you eat those sources of K2 when you can get something like natto? Which has way more K2 and it's not associated with But it but but then we have to just move on from K2 because you're saying other things are causing the problem What do you mean if you're saying saturated fat cholesterol and all the other and heme iron and all the negative things in the animal foods Are the reason then we should just move on and discuss those individually I suppose if I'd love to but I guess I could just mention I mean there are plenty of other vitamins that are and Those the other vitamins outside of a in the form of retinolic acid D3 can be supplemented or obtained from animal foods and K2 can be obtained from as you said the not so and then animal foods The all the other vitamins are present in both Plants and animal foods the so the problem here Frank is you can look at like Mechanistic data and shit all you want What ultimately matters is health outcomes in a population? If you're going to claim that vitamin like pro vitamin a carotenoids aren't Like they're not changed into fully formed vitamin a Converted in your body very efficiently like okay. Well, what are the health outcomes of that? Like you haven't shown anything that like you haven't shown any evidence that vegans have higher rates of deficiencies in these sorts of things if it's a direct result of their diet and If it's actually caused a significant overall impact to their health like do vegans have a higher risk of a Particular disease because they're not getting enough of a certain vitamin. No, I mean the only thing I have to say in regards to The vitamin a benefits would be anecdotes that I personally have and you don't want to hear those No, like I like the very very bare minimum. I don't want to see case reports But you know preferably things like randomized trials Okay, so did you want to discuss saturated fat and cholesterol in its relation? Relationship with heart disease because I have seen a few videos on your channel where you were claiming saturated fat and cholesterol Do not cause heart disease. I mean we could I mean the problem I have is there hasn't you know We're we're debating back and forth on all these different things But when we actually go to look at the physical studies, you know, they're done on people and standard American diets and No, no What's well you actually believe that saturated fat and cholesterol do not cause heart disease, correct? I mean Like like do you mean if if I eat saturated fat and cholesterol in in human amounts for the next 80 years? Do I think I'm gonna drop that of a heart attack? Is that the question kind of well? No, I'm saying do you believe that saturated fat and cholesterol have nothing to do with heart disease risk? No, I mean, there's obvious associations that have been proven with that but those Then you have to kind of just go into that inflammation insulin resistance and all those things can That cause the introduction of bodies Well saturated fat is pro-inflammatory and it does cause insulin resistance And then well and using using saturated fat as a blanket term for mono one saturated fat saturated fat all those are saturated fats No, no, but when you look at when you look at any food that contains saturated fat It also can't it's not just going to be at least for the most part foods that people are eating just Saturated fat and you have to look at the context of what other fats and oils they're eating in their diet that cause inflammation It's not as much as you're saying saturated fat as a blanket term. No one only eats saturated fat That's not how it works even saturated fat in animal foods is has mono and saturated It has a bunch of fat and vitamins and things that you can't just use a blanket term to describe a substance like saturated fat It doesn't make sense to me. Okay, um saturated fats do Activate certain pro-inflammatory genes They do alter the gut bacteria to be pro-inflammatory and you can even see an immune response from saturated fat so During consumption of saturated fat. You see greater monocyte adhesion, which is the immune cells in your body But when you consume omega-3s, you don't see that immune response so saturated fats definitely are pro-inflammatory and They also break down into non-asterified fatty acids, which are toxic to insulin producing beta cells in your in your pancreas Which causes diabetes You're taking you're taking one part one aspect of a food out of the context of all the other beneficial things that like monounsaturated Monounsaturated fat, polyunsaturated fat, various vitamins. We're not talking about mono and polyunsaturated fats We're talking about saturated fat. Yeah, but my point is that you can't talk about saturated fat without mentioning those other things It just doesn't make any sense Well, no, you can and we can talk about those other things and how they modulate heart disease risk But saturated fats are in fact pro-inflammatory They activate immune responses like they increase monocyte adhesion and They produce toxic breakdown products which kill insulin producing beta cells in your in your pancreas Which especially among genetically predisposed individuals it'll result in type 2 diabetes But this is like what they did with the what was it the hydrocarbons and the rats where they took Like 10,000 times the amount they isolated a substance that occurs in a natural food No, no, no, I'm talking about humans Yeah, but if you're researching humans if you're consuming what I wanted to get out was if you're consuming saturated fat From healthy food sources that I would consider healthy like like wild wild game Wild caught fish things like that. It's present with a lot of other vitamins beneficial fats that That's okay. Well, you eat those foods. Well Frank Um Let like let's talk about some of these these confounding factors here So are you telling me that if you eat saturated fat from wild caught game like a deer That fat is not going to break down into toxic breakdown products known as non-asterified free fatty acids and kill insulin producing beta cells in your pancreas How is that saturated fat any different than saturated fat in a piece of beef? Well, that's actually a tough question to answer because I think deer fat would actually be only mono and polyunsaturated fat No, it would have saturated fat It's a leaner type of me and you have less of it than like, you know grain fed beef cattle But it's going to have saturated fat in it So what's the so the basis of you just isolating? I mean, this isn't really something I honestly Because the for me the whole the whole saturated fat cholesterol blah blah blah all that arguing stuff has been done a hundred times Okay, well Frank Do you like I just want to know do you actually believe that saturated fat and cholesterol do not contribute to heart disease risk? If you're talking about heart disease risk in the context of studies, I already answered your question There are plenty of studies at show. They're planning studies That's no question. It's a yes or no question. Do you believe saturated fat and cholesterol increases risk of heart disease? I can say yes in the context of studies people that have higher saturated fat and cholesterol intake in Certain studies have been shown to have higher risk of heart disease But as I said all of these things that I'm talking about saturated fat in the context of what food you're eating Other factors in the person's diet what other foods they're eating you can't just isolate. I Could probably isolate Some obscure consumption what what what could I say? Maybe I could say I don't know. What's a good example Maybe I find a group of people that really like eating popcorn and I start showing that Okay, popcorn increases risk people that consume popcorn have a higher risk for Heart disease, but you have to consider other lifestyle factors other things they're eating other things They're doing about their life that are associated with people that tend to consume High amounts of saturated fat especially in the context that you know the majority of people are like if you walked up the song on the street They would probably agree that fat is not they would probably think that fat is not good for you You have to take those other things at the consideration as opposed to just isolating a specific thing okay, Frank you're talking about confounding factors and That is a reasonable concern when you're doing epidemiological research But there's enough mechanistic data proving that saturated fat does increase risk of heart disease due to increasing serum cholesterol levels and you yourself you picked out the Maasai of Africa as People following an ideal sort of diet. They have extraordinarily high Prevalence of heart disease you've even admitted this yourself and linked me research showing that so Like I don't even know what you're really trying to argue here like does saturated fat increase heart disease risk or not You didn't really answer my question The saturated fat increase heart disease risk I Mean in the context of the studies you're talking about that's a that's not as I said I'm not there's there's enough mechanistic data Saturated fat does in fact raise serum cholesterol and serum cholesterol is the main risk factor for heart disease It do you believe okay? So I mean I mean the problem is there are studies that show Saturated fat there's as I said, there's studies on both sides of the table. There's studies that show saturated fat has no link between Very LDL and there's studies that show it does their studies that show Dietary cholesterol increases. There's studies that there's studies on both sides of the coin So I don't really want to beat this to death because this would be another this is important Because you don't seem to be able to understand What research is credible or not? So the study showing that there's no link between saturated fat and cholesterol intake and heart disease risk They're typically Epidemiological studies where they don't take baseline cholesterol into account. So there's two issues Like if you have a baseline cholesterol intake of zero The any added dietary cholesterol will have a very significant impact on your serum cholesterol score So say if you're vegan and you decide to eat an egg every day your cholesterol will increase by roughly 10 to 15 percent but if you're eating like a standard American diet where you're consuming roughly 400 500 milligrams of cholesterol per day if you add an egg to your diet There will be little to no change in your cholesterol score The whole reason I'm not done listen so your body has a regulatory mechanism with cholesterol and a lot of the research showing that oh Well higher intakes of cholesterol don't associate with higher incidence of disease It's just because they're not taking baseline cholesterol intake into account if you compare a cohort of vegans to meat eaters The vegans like obviously will have lower rates of heart disease because they have lower intakes of saturated fat They eat no cholesterol and thus their serum cholesterol score is much lower And that's why in the Adventist cohort cohorts vegans had what a 55% reduced risk of ischemic heart disease So you're just referencing bad data here I Don't think I reference anything. I Listen my problem with this whole cholesterol versus saturated fat thing is It you could you're coming into this discussion with The acceptance that you know saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for you when that original that original hypothesis traces back to them Injecting rabbits what whatever they gave saturated fat to rabbits that have that is obvious reason You shouldn't be given saturated fat to rabbits. It's not they don't okay, Frank The whole premise more research on heart disease than Animal experiments conducted a hundred years ago on rabbits. You understand that right? But my point is that the whole premise of everything you're talking about right now is based on conventional wisdom everything No, it's based on metabolic work experiments and that we're trying to prove that saturated fat and cholesterol This is not a discussion. I'm having in a short span of time without looking at data and research I'm not doing this without like I have some stuff in front of me I have some things in front of you, but I'm not this has been beaten to death and Whether you're a vegan or carnivore, you're gonna look at the research that that fits your Whatever you want to believe in and you're gonna try to discredit the other person's research and say what they're doing is wrong I don't think the fact that fact cholesterol thing needs to be beaten to death anymore Well Frank that's complete nonsense look I've seen a few of your videos and I I saw a video you made specifically about saturated fat cholesterol and heart disease You referenced articles made by Chris Cressor I I don't know why you'd reference articles made by just a random person who just has a degree in acupuncture in Chinese medicine The research you're looking at is flawed by design They're pretty much all perspective studies where they didn't take baseline cholesterol intake into account there's enough individual variation in Baseline cholesterol itself So if two people were eating the exact same diet that have different cholesterol scores And if you don't take baseline cholesterol into account Then you're going to end up with a data set that doesn't show any association between something like saturated fat and heart disease because saturated fat intake doesn't usually correlate with serum cholesterol just because of the wide difference of Individual variation in serum cholesterol So that's so again if you look at things like randomized trials dietary change experiments metabolic ward experiments reducing saturated fat and cholesterol is associated with lower lower serum cholesterol and Typically you see a reduction in heart disease risk and Again, that's why I as I said I don't want to beat this to death There are studies that show that having high cholesterol is associated with lower mortality and there are studies showing that No, there isn't no there isn't no no there aren't what they show is reverse causation If you take it, it's especially prevalent with elderly populations, but when elderly people get sick So let's say they get cancer They get the flu They're just general health is declining Typically that lowers their cholesterol either from a direct result of the disease medications They're taking or from confounding factors like you're not feeling well. You're not going to eat as much your cholesterol goes down And just them being sick lowers their cholesterol So it's not the collect the low cholesterol causing disease. It's the disease causing low cholesterol So again, this is just reverse causation. I should I should ask this sooner you're the point What is the just the overall premise like that saturated fat in the diet increases? Cholesterol is and then so saturate both saturated fat and cholesterol in the diet increases serum cholesterol and Serum cholesterol is the principal risk factor in heart disease. Okay, but if we say we can't really Say that when you know lipid panel is gets much more complex than that and honestly above my We know that I yell to LDL LDL particle count C reactive protein I've heard this argument before you've probably listened to Peter Atea a little too much He used to be a doctor what Peter Atea does is he cherry picks research on overweight people with diabetes and what they found is with overweight people with diabetes different biomarkers are a little more accurate for determining heart disease risk like LDL P C reactive protein a po b In the general population LDL C is the is the most significant risk factor for heart disease with Diabetics You know the biomarkers are a bit different because it creates a different lipid profile But among the general population LDL C is the most important risk factor for heart disease That's what I'm saying LDL. That's why you can't just say cholesterol as a blanket term That's doesn't make sense Frank among the general population LDL C is the most important risk factor for heart disease now among overweight diabetics it changes a bit, but still That doesn't change the fact that LDL C is harmful This is as I said has been argued back and forth There's probably a hundred people you can have on here that can discuss cholesterol and argue cholesterol and I don't know How many times I do But you're just you're disagreeing with anything that goes just you will disagree with anything And what I just said you you agreed with is that there's other factors outside of just total cholesterol that affect Your your cardiovascular risk, that's not it's it's well complicated what you're saying well no no no Frank I'm not like trying to reduce this down to be as simple as possible The biggest risk factor among the general population is LDL C that doesn't mean things like LDL P Apo B C reactive protein don't play a role, but LDL C is the most significant And among diabetics things change a bit other biomarkers are a little more relevant But that doesn't mean LDL C doesn't still play a risk fact like a risk factor here well, if you want to discuss this when Let's just look at cholesterol in general and the function that actually causes heart disease is primarily because of inflammation and oxidized fats Correct. Okay. Well dietary cholesterol increases the susceptibility of serum cholesterol to oxidation and a lot of the foods You're eating like foods that are high in saturated fat high in heme iron like red meat. They're pro oxidants So they increase so you're eating foods that increase LDL to ox it like increases susceptibility of LDL to oxidation and you're eating foods that cause oxidation any food an oxidized fat a rancid fat an inflammatory fat is not a An animal fat that is not what we're talking about Frank you're not understanding me Eating dietary cholesterol Increases your serum cholesterol like increases the susceptibility to oxidative modification Also, the foods you're eating that include heme iron like red meat and steak Heme iron is a pro oxidant So again, you're increasing the susceptibility of your LDL to oxidation and you're eating Pro-oxidant foods So you are not only increasing your serum cholesterol, but you're also increasing the amount of oxidized LDL particles in your circulation. Oh, but wait when you're not consuming oxidized fats or inflammatory foods in general That has that does not matter. Okay. So how is heme iron not inflammatory? Heme iron is inflammatory in the context that most people consume it in because it's absent of Other vitamins and things that are required to metabolize it. Let me just go look at the I did a video on this like two weeks ago Frank how does heme iron become non non-inflammatory and not a pro-oxidant It doesn't but the the rate you consume it at and the foods you consume it with Effect its digestibility how it's absorbed in the body You need multiple vitamins and other minerals to absorb iron in the body Well, no not for heme iron. It bypasses your regulatory mechanisms normal high iron from plant foods That is true, but heme iron just bypasses your regulatory mechanisms And again heme iron is a pro oxidant So you're talking about like oxidized LDL particles as being harmful Because they're pro-inflammatory. Well, you're eating foods that increase the susceptibility of LDL to oxidation and you're eating pro oxidants That actually oxidize you see the problem is with what you did with the saturated fat You're isolating a food outside of the context that it would normally be consumed it Okay, Frank. Tell me tell me well like how does eating something that's grass-fed or Free range or whatever? How does that change the fact that heme iron is a pro oxidant? Let me let me just look at my studies that I have from my video list because this was not an Easy explanation after doing it a few hours of research let alone off the top of my head So Frank heme iron itself is very closely linked with heart disease diabetes and certain forms of cancer There's a meta-analysis titled is heme iron intake associated with risk of coronary heart disease a meta-analysis of prospective studies What they found was per milligram intake of heme iron per day It was associated with almost a 30% increase in heart disease risk I think they they ended up with one milligram per day was associated with the 27% increase risk for heart disease So one milligram how many milligrams of heme iron are you intaking per day? One second. I'm as I said earlier. I'm not comfortable discussing these things or with you having Because I have studies that I looked up about all of these things from heme iron to cholesterol to whatever it is, but I'm not making statements on on heme iron or or saturated fat or any of these things without having the data Okay, well you you knew you were going to get into a debate today So why wouldn't you have prepared some research surrounding the relevant topics? I did but you don't seem to take my answers of you isolating these things outside of the context of how they should be consumed as Okay, a reasonable discussion. Well Frank How does like how does heme iron not become a pro oxidant when the animal eats grass? Because it's not about heme iron itself It's about the context of the person's diet and if they have the required vitamins and minerals to metabolize iron properly So it does not stay in the digestive tract Frank. You're talking about confounding factors Heme iron is a pro oxidant No matter what you consume it with if you consume it with anti-inflammatory foods Yes, it offsets the anti-inflammatory pro oxidant properties of heme iron But heme iron is still a pro oxidant. So why would you consume it at all? But what is so important about this one don't vegans usually have higher blood levels of No iron in general No, I don't believe so. Uh, they they don't have a higher prevalence of iron deficiency Um and like Frank, what's the benefit of consuming heme iron when it's a pro oxidant? And it's linked with heart disease diabetes in certain forms of cancer Because you don't seem to understand that my point is you need to consume these foods in the context of overall nutrient density And if you isolate any compounds in a food, you can make an argument for why it would be bad for your health No, not really uh like again Frank Like nothing you're saying here is at all consistent or makes sense like First you are claiming that like hunter gatherer populations They don't have chronic disease and then you link me the messiah who you claim have an ideal diet Extraordinarily high rates of heart disease. It's just that they're the rates of mortality from heart disease Are low compared to uh standard americans Um So like again, why would you consume heme iron? I I just don't understand like you can consume lentils You can eat high vitamin c fruits and vegetables that aid with iron absorption And then you'll get enough iron. You don't get any of the pro oxidant effects and things like lentils beans peas They're associated with longer life expectancy So why would you eat like a carnivore diet or eat like the messiah when You know, there's a better way of doing things If you want an answer on this heme iron thing specifically give me two minutes or maybe a little more Okay, sure So what but the base is that uh heme iron is oxidizing whereas non heme iron isn't Uh, is that the main concern about or is it is it also about the concern about just the heat the heme iron association with Various diseases heme iron is a pro oxidant and it's associated with increased risk of heart disease diabetes in certain forms of cancer Whereas non heme isn't Thank you What is your um What is your Which part of the Are you just talking about like the interaction of heme iron in the large intestine with other well, no, I wasn't even talking about Like Talking about why it's inflammatory, right? Yeah, it's a pro oxidant But that that oxidation occurs in and that inflammation occurs in the large intestine Okay And that's because of its interaction and this is what this is the study I did on my video a couple weeks ago it's because of its interaction with N nitroso compounds and like Cured meats and stuff. It's not necessarily to do with heme iron in itself Heme iron produces the endogenous production of N nitroso compounds when interacting with Let me let me look at the study to read the exact um exact context Well frank, this isn't exactly relevant to what i'm saying Heme iron it is because you're just isolating a food and saying it causes oxidation when in the real the reason It's causing oxidation is because it's an absence of other vitamins and minerals and because it's interacting with specific negative things That are natural If you look up iron metabolism Well, what vitamins and minerals like what food that contains heme iron? Is not going to have these pro oxidant effects What do you mean like like what food like does the food have? What's the question like what vitamins you need to absorb iron or what? No, like I'm asking like you're claiming that oh well The only reason they find an association between heme iron intake and risk of heart disease is because They're not consuming it with some other vitamins or minerals or it's not the right type of grass fed whatever Um, what food that contains heme iron, uh, doesn't have these pro oxidant effects Oh, I mean like cured meat sausages and just in general the way we're raising our animals now Especially like chicken and pork and stuff It just has incredibly high levels of well not necessarily incredibly high But it has normal levels of heme iron, but it doesn't have any of the other vitamins or minerals or anything present necessarily to um metabolize the iron Okay, well, no this this occurs with fresh meat but your but fresh meat does not have If all you consume is fresh meat, it doesn't have vitamin a it doesn't have large amounts of the other minerals Like copper and zinc and things that you need in balance with iron To at least enough amounts of these other vitamins to you know The animal has to be consumed in the context of like nose to tail eating In order to you know Like I think something like blood sausage or just pretty much What like what you said earlier the skeletal muscle is consuming large amounts of skeletal muscle To my understanding especially in the context of a standard american diet We just core cause in natural amounts of heme iron to be in the blood as opposed to Uh Having the adequate other things that would normally be consumed with that much heme iron Okay, frank. It sounds like you're doing this thing where you move the goalposts further and further back I have this sort of issue all the time with people who promote keto or carnivore or whatever When I link data showing, okay. Well intake of this nutrient is associated with increased disease Well, they say oh, well, it's not grass-fed free range organic whatever meat there that you're you're supposed to be consuming Well, frank the fact is Uh, there's a mechanistic data proving that heme iron is a pro-oxidant It produce it causes the production of nitroso compounds endogenously within the body and according to epidemiological research It's very strongly linked with heart disease diabetes cancer Like you can make these claims all you want. Well, heme iron isn't as bad when you're eating it with organs and the animals Free range grass fed and it's wild or something. Well, that literally doesn't matter Heme iron isn't good for you period You're just adding in a list of confounding factors That may modulate its risk, but heme iron is still bad for you. Like why would you consume any amount of heme iron? Uh, I don't think I answered anything yet. I'm still trying to look through my studies for the specific reference I have So The point that as I and you're talking about n nitrosol compounds But those n nitrosol compounds that you're referring to have nothing to do With heme iron they have to do with the oxidation of heme iron What my point was earlier was that these people are consuming these cured and processed meats that have nitrates And they're using a direct fire drying process which forms those compounds and then heme iron interacts with these Compounds that are result of the nitrates in the food that cause high levels of inflammation And that's that's the main reason the main reason that there's a very high Colorectal cancer risk with a heme iron and nitrate cured foods Okay, um, I I'm still not hearing a reason why heme iron in particular is totally safety I mean you don't have you don't you don't have a don't the reason that heme iron would be bad for you is Because of its interaction with those cured meats and those compounds and those cured meats That's the reason it could be bad for you There's no I'd imagine it's worse because of those factors you mentioned, but heme iron itself is a pro oxidant So like again, you're just adding on confounding factors like okay. Yeah, if it's cured if it's like treated at high heat It makes it worse But I I'm not hearing an argument for why what is what is what are you saying like Heme iron is a pro oxidant, but you're just saying that it's associated with In inflammation because of other things it is not specifically an oxidant Notice again like even with the supplement form It's associated with increased risk of of heart disease And for the same reason Because you're consuming it outside of the context of the amount you're supposed to consume it in and You're having the only interaction you're referencing the interaction you're referencing with oxidizing iron is because of those Those problems with the nitrates and the curing process of foods. It has nothing to do with iron in itself Okay, so you're saying heme iron is not a pro oxidant when you're eating fresh forms of meat But you know, I'm saying that you the re I'm saying that heme iron Is detrimental in the context of nitrosyl compounds and cured meats And so right so you're saying it doesn't act as a pro oxidant when it's consumed in fresh meats but What is the what is the What is it doing in the human body that's you would consider damaging in the context of just iron itself It's not using lbl particles And oxidized lbl particles are more atherogenic That's why there's a strong association with heart disease iron doesn't cause That's it has nothing to do with the oxidation of lbl particles. It has nothing to do with it What are you talking about? Dude, you could literally Oxidation of lbl They're results of not having normal metabolism diseases toxins any things like that if You're saying that iron when consumed in excess specifically causes No, um Not in excess uh per milligram intake of heme iron. It's associated with About a 27 increased risk of heart disease. So that's not an excess. That just means replacing Like normal plant sources of iron with heme iron You're just you're changing this from initially you were saying Heme iron causes Whatever oxidant you're different your definition of oxidation. It's not So it causes the oxidation of lbl particles in your serum in your blood And oxidized lbl iron iron has nothing to do with that iron has nothing to do with that. That's just okay So it's like free radicals and things like that that has nothing to do with iron Um I I don't even understand what you're arguing at this point My understanding of heme iron going into this Was that you were going to reference the n nitrosol compounds and go into that and that's because that is the only thing to my knowledge That heme iron is associated negatively with anything else. You're saying I have literally never heard of or have never done any research on I don't know why you're dwelling on this point Because there's nothing that you can I don't know if you're referencing that you could show me that iron does these things But I I've been looking I've been looking up everything you've been saying for the past 10 minutes And I I really got nothing to be honest outside of the initial heme iron versus nitrosol compounds though Okay, well the research I just linked you the meta analysis is heme iron intake associated with risk of coronary heart disease and meta analysis of prospective studies Um heme iron may contribute to the development of atherosclerosis by catalyzing the production of hydroxyl free radicals and promoting low density lipoprotein oxidation So uh again heme iron itself Is a pro-oxidant And it oxidizes LDL in the serum and that's why it increases heart disease risk Um, it's also associated with increased risk of diabetes and cancer What did you just read the um Are you reading the results? I think that was the last study I linked and it was just the first part of the abstract abstract So uh like frank uh according to the data I've seen Hold on. Hold on. Can I just reread this please uh Heme iron can contribute to the development of atherosclerosis by catalyzing production of hydroxyl free radicals and promoting low density lipoprotein oxidation. So Catalyzing production of hydroxyl free radicals Is what you're saying it's doing not you're saying it's by doing that it's promoting oxidation, right? Sorry you're saying what you're saying is Not that heme iron You're saying heme iron promotes oxidation because it Catalyzes production of hydroxyl free radicals. That's what this study says. Okay So give me like Two minutes because I'm not a biochemist You don't have the uh full study here. Do you because that would help? Uh, no, it's the full text isn't available Okay, well frank anyways, um, well either way the problem with this study is the Relative risk factor is 1.27. So you might as well just throw this study out the window, man I like this doesn't matter increased risk one point if a study if a study has any If a study is like it needs to be at least over two like most people would just throw this doesn't yes, it does This is like I don't think you understand what a hazard ratio is This is insignificant in the context. This is like any anyone understands relative risk would just dismiss this study I'm not so I wish you'd like this earlier because I wouldn't have a 30 percent increased risk per Milligram of heme iron intake is insignificant This is yeah, it isn't significant in the context. Okay, so if we so if I consumed three milligrams of heme iron that would increase my risk by Like a hazard ratio of 2.0. So like a hundred percent essentially Double the risk I just wish you know Even if I did want to entertain the idea that this dog shit study was admissible With this risk factor, I just don't have the full text and I'm trying to find it Okay, um frank anyways, uh, according to the research I've seen Uh, heme iron is a pro-oxidant And it is associated with increased risk of no, but you're just see the thing is you're you're just And you're not showing metabolic process. You're not showing. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's fine But I'd like to see some conflicting information from you because so far all you've said is like grass fed though, essentially No, I haven't said anything actually. I all I said was that heme iron in the context of nitroso compounds is Probably the highest known negative thing associated with heme iron I can agree that process meat is worse than you know, fresh meat But I'd like to see actual data suggesting that heme iron from fresh meat isn't harmful and You can link me laboratory data mechanistic data Population data. I don't care. I just like to see conflicting information here so What I'm thinking right now is the information you're presenting in regards to the dangers of heme iron You haven't not proven to me that heme iron is damaging outside of the end nitroso You can't outside of the interactions with the nitrates. There's nothing to me that indicates heme iron is detrimental So with the basis of we don't really know you just want me to try to prove that it's beneficial Well, Frank, uh, according to the data That I've presented to you Heme iron intake increases risk of atherosclerosis And it does that data that study is complete dog shit. And if you want to dwell on that, I will try to find the full Okay, uh, it's not just a study. It's a meta analysis The uh, so it's not exactly just risk ratio the risk ratio for this is too low It's way too low. So per milligram. So if I if the study did Per three milligrams of heme iron intake it increased the risk of a heart disease by 100 that would I'm not getting this. It's like you don't understand that this is per milligram of heme iron So if you consumed three milligrams of heme iron according to the study, you double your risk of heart disease And this is a meta analysis, by the way, it's not just a single study You see every study you've linked me today. Unfortunately Does not have any text and there's no base Unfortunately, the full text isn't available There's no basis because my problem is there's no basis for this besides this study and you can't physically explain to me It's not just a study. It's a meta analysis Both of us are unable to explain what heme iron physically does in the body outside of my explanation for its interaction with N nitroso compounds Okay, well frank despite that the epidemiological research Clearly shows heme iron intake increases risk of heart disease Now you can say the only reason for that is because of uh consumption of process meats But I'd like to see data on that does like if we're only looking at fresh meat consumption Is there no association? Uh, I even like to see some laboratory data Uh showing okay. Well, it doesn't produce like these N nitroso compounds hydroxyl free radicals Uh, and it's not a risk like it doesn't uh cause the oxidation of LDL particles You're not showing that but the research clearly shows There is an association between heme iron intake and heart disease risk and you're not talking specifically about um Like you're not talking about people that like are not consuming meat and they have low iron levels. Is that relevant? Like deficiencies of iron this didn't have anything to do with deficiencies. Uh, it just had to do with uh percentage of consumption of heme iron There's also two other systematic reviews and meta-analyses I have on hand Iron and cancer risk a systematic review and meta-analysis of the epidemiological evidence Um, and again in the abstract, uh, it says Iron has been suggested as a risk factor for different types of cancers mainly to to its pro-oxidant activity Which can lead to oxidative DNA damage. Uh, so Heme iron is well known as a pro-oxidant Now i'm not an expert because this is the problem. You can't and now i'm not like look, I admit I'm not an expert on why we can't talk. This is like a lot of these points You're bringing up and we're talking about we we are simply not educated enough to speculate on this That is simply like well, we are uh, we can speculate but there's like you can't say these things You're saying like definitely as you are look, that doesn't make any sense Frank the results are like according to these meta-analyses these large compilations of research Heme iron is a pro-oxidant and because of its pro-oxidant activity It's associated I told you what my opinion on this study is and the relative risk is too low in the context of what people would consider Is too low? Yes, it is for any for any study Yes, if it's not a but like if you're talking like 1.9 2.5 then maybe we could look into it, but this is not Anywhere close frank that's per milligram of heme iron intake So according to this meta-analysis if you consume three milligrams of heme iron you'd have about a double increased risk of heart disease So like why is that hard for you to understand per milligram? That doesn't mean if you consume any heme iron at all like you have a 27 increased risk No, it's per milligram And again, there are other systematic reviews and meta-analyses linking the pro-oxidant effects of heme iron to cancer and also diabetes Um, I'll link you another meta-analysis and review dietary iron intake body iron stores and the risk of type 2 diabetes This is not um analysis So all this says is look the vast majority of research frank shows That heme iron intake is damaging to human health Dude this fucking i'm not talking on this point in my this study you linked me is dog. Shit furthermore We conducted meta-analysis for colorecter relative. Is this even this is so Are you linking me different ones now? Am I looking at it? I just linked to you the one I mentioned Well, you got three different ones. You got Are those those are You did three different studies, right? That's it. Yeah, uh one on heart like a meta-analysis on heart disease meta-analysis on diabetes meta-analysis on cancer the last one is the diabetes one Um, and it looks like the diabetes one has the full text available The the heme iron intake with risk of coronary heart disease meta-analysis that you've been talking about for the past 20 minutes Is the two so sorry just a second the two meta-analysis I linked on uh cancer and diabetes the full texts are available So if you want to read later After the debate you can uh Just this first study you linked with the relative risk is from 1.04 to 1.67 So some found no association Okay, and the dose response the relative risk of chd for an increase of heme iron intake of one milligram a day Was 1.27 That's not saying that that does not mean that One milligram per it's not per one milligram It means that these people increase their heme iron intake of one milligram per day and this was their risk This does not mean if you make it to two it's going to be you know It's not gonna it's not multiplicative if that doesn't what you're saying is disingenuous and you're interpreting the data in your favor Oh, I think I understand what you're saying even if you're an intake of one million, uh, sorry, uh The dose response risk ratio for coronary heart disease for an increase in heme iron intake of one milligram per day I I think I understand what you're saying. Uh, I misinterpreted it a bit, um But anyway, uh, if you add one milligram to that's not no, but that's not what the study says If you add one milligram So the relative risk if you add one milligram of heme iron per day to your daily diet You increase your risk of heart disease by nearly 30 percent or one Zero because there were some people in that study that no not zero It says no the lowest was 1.1 1.04 was the lowest which is insignificant That is not admissible data. Well, no dose response risk ratio heme iron intake of one milligram per day was 1.27 And uh, it went from 1.1 to 1.47 Okay, I'm going to be a little more serious. I'm not Entertaining that dog should study anymore. I'm going to look at the second one iron and cancer risk a systematic review and meta analysis of the epidemiological evidence You said this one has the full text, but the third one only is the one I saw with the full text Uh, they both have a full text. Uh, they have a full text link on the top right hand corner Um, anyway, uh, the vast majority of data shows that heme iron intake is associated with an increased risk of So this this the other study iron and cancer risk a systematic review of meta analysis of the epidemiological evidence Blah blah blah died to your iron furthermore. We conducted meta analysis for colorectal cancer risk Uh confidence interval 1.00 to 1.17 colon 1.12 1.03 to 1.22 breast 1.03 And then 0.97 to 1.09 they actually found it found an inverse risk with breast cancer in some cases And lung cancer they found uh, relative risk was 1.12 and the range was 0.98 to 1.29 So they found inverse risks on the majority of these studies, which means it is really doing shit Frank do you understand what relative risk is averages You understand what averages has nothing to do with with what they and if frank you have on an individual level Yeah, you can see variations where you find an inverse relationship But on like the entire scale of the study They found more often than not it increased risk Any of these studies you're linking me if you do a study and you find one person that contradicts the whole study It's that's it. It's inadmissible evidence. This is very this relative risk is dog. Shit, and I'm not Out to we're moving on to the next study Frank. That's not a very iron intake. It is exactly how it works, and if you ask any So Frank if you find one person who smoked their entire life, they never got cancer That means smoking doesn't cause cancer. No, but for something like smoking the relative risk is Exponentially higher. Let's look at the relative risk for smoking. Yeah, sure But like the claim you're making is if you find one outlier in a data point that makes the The entire set of data worthless So if you know it doesn't use the relative risk for smoking is like it's not 1.1 It's like fucking 70. Okay. So then so then rare outliers in a dataset Don't impact the the credibility. These are not rare outliers the large majority of These this data is on is either four or there's this data If for anyone with half of a brain that looks at this data would say this is inadmissible because they didn't really show anything Well, no, they actually did find I'm gonna move on to the third study. I'm not entertaining. I'm not entertaining these two other studies I'm gonna move on to the third one and we'll take a look diet air iron intake body iron stores and the risk of type 2 Diabetes a systematic review and meta analysis results Excess iron has been showed to induce diabetes and animal models. However, the results from human epidemiological studies linking body iron stores And iron intake to the risk of type 2 diabetes are conflicting in this study. We aim to systematically evaluate the available evidence So they're just trying to show Some association with type 2 diabetes, even though the past research has not shown anything Well, no the past research on diabetes didn't show anything because they didn't actually take into account heme iron just total I'm just reading. I'm just reading what this isn't that what it says I didn't read the maybe it said that next Uh, I'm not I'm not looking at the full text. I'm just looking at the abstract right now I'm gonna send us a five so this gives us 1.9 inches will have a little humor intake Is this the same is this the same one that you like is this the same one that you like me Is this uh, is this one of the studies that meta analysis analyzed earlier? Is this No, uh, this is a systematic review and meta analysis for risk of type 2 diabetes And uh, uh dietary iron intake and body iron stores Um, look the pooled risk ratios for type 2 diabetes mildest and individuals with the highest versus the lowest intake Of ferritin levels was 1.7 Um, that's pretty damn significant I didn't read this yet Dietary total iron non heme iron or supplemental iron intakes were not significantly associated with type 2 But why are you linking me in the study, man? What? At the conclusion heme iron Iron heme iron intake spottering iron stores were significantly associated with greater risk of type 2 diabetes Yeah, but dietary total iron non heme iron or supplemental iron had nothing to do with it This study says that the their tissue levels of iron Had a higher risk, but that had nothing to do with their dietary iron. This study is irrelevant Well, no, it it also looked at dietary iron intake iron intake, but it said that dietary iron Higher total iron intake and increased body iron stores were significantly associated with a greater risk of type 2 diabetes Let me let me wipe my eyes. Maybe I'm reading this wrong Dietary total iron non heme iron or supplemental iron intakes were not significantly associated with type 2 that maybe my uh Yeah, exactly. I'm not associated with type 2 I told you about this before because it doesn't take into account A heme iron this is total iron No, you said no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no hold on stop stop Why are you cherry picking? I'm not cherry picking shit. I'm reading the studies you fucking linked me and you didn't even read him yourself Okay, right listen listen. I'm gonna take my headset off. Let me let me say this What you said when I was reading the background was that it said like However, the results from human epidemiological studies linking body iron stores and iron intake are conflicting That and and then you said those previous studies that they did did not account Whatever, but they did in this study and now you're saying they did and they found an association between heme iron intake Body iron stores and type 2 diabetes. No, they just mentioned no listen frank They mentioned in the conclusion that total dietary iron is not associated with risk of type 2 diabetes because Your iron like most people's iron Primarily comes from plant-based sources And they found that that non heme iron wasn't associated with type 2 diabetes So lentils or sorry iron from lentils isn't associated with type 2 diabetes because it's non heme And supplemental iron Honestly man, anyone that interprets this data you're picking the wrong arguments to make I could have myself I could have made a better argument for frank. You're cherry picking one sentence out of No, but you're but if Your point is that consume your point earlier that you wanted me to discuss was that consuming dietary Or any heme iron in general is causes diabetes and now you're saying it's tissue levels that are a problem That doesn't make any sense. I'm gonna If if I was in if I was in your position right now arguing against me For heme iron I could have fucking crushed me because I know that heme iron can be shown in a very negative light in other aspects What you're trying to show me right now is the last fucking thing you should be trying to show me because these studies The relative risk is inverse in some cases and it doesn't and even the conclusions of these studies doesn't make sense I I think for your credibility You should move away from heme iron in regards to diabetes and oxidation and all of these things that are very apparent Even with the studies you're linking me that there's nothing to do with them Let's move on to something else Frank, okay I just want to be clear in this meta-announced society linked for everybody who's interested Dietary iron intake body iron stores in the risk of type 2 diabetes systematic meta-analysis and review The authors found that the intake of heme iron and increased body iron stores were significantly associated with greater risk of type 2 diabetes That's not however However, what they found was total iron wasn't associated with risk of type 2 diabetes because that would include non heme iron Non heme iron wasn't associated with type 2 diabetes risk and supplemental iron was not associated with type 2 diabetes risk So uh, yeah, again like heme iron intake is associated with risk of type 2 diabetes and it's also associated with All that's all that study says is the higher tissue levels of iron It has nothing to do the study specifically states that you linked that dietary iron has nothing to do with type 2 diabetes That's exactly what the study says It literally says we found no associations with any sort of dietary iron intake whether supplements heme iron or non heme iron That's exactly what the study says Nothing to do a meta-analysis of five studies gave a pooled risk ratio for type 2 diabetes Melodists of 1.33 In individuals with the highest level are you talking about the third study right now? The the diabetes meta-analysis It clearly says the pooled risk ratio for type 2 diabetes with among the people with the highest intake of heme iron was 1.33 Which one are you reading right now dietary iron intake body iron source and risk of type 2 diabetes? This is a meta-analysis. This is the one that specifically says Dietary total iron non heme iron or supplemental iron intakes were not significantly associated with type 2 diabetes Why the fuck do you keep hitting this man? This means that dietary iron intake has nothing to do with it Frank there's a difference between total iron intake and heme iron intake Most people get their their iron like the majority of it from plant sources So when you do total iron 90 percent of that is probably plant iron and the rest is is heme iron So it's not surprising they wouldn't find a big risk with total iron intake They also didn't find a an association with non heme iron intake. So iron from lentils And supplemental iron and type 2 diabetes, but they did find an association between heme iron intake This is this is not this is that exact This is just one of the studies that they did a meta-analysis on earlier And had the same low relative risk ratios for iron. This is that's not Even if I even I if I take the diabetes risk by 30 1.09 to 1.23 1.19 to 1.48 was the risk ratio and the average was 1.33 No, no, that's looking that's pulling together. Yeah, that's not pulling together just iron intake. That's pulling together That's pulling together. What is it pulling together? I see it was a look. Oh, I'll read the sentence pulling together one milligram of heme iron. It's pulling together ferritin receptors pooled rrs lowest intake of ferritin Then they Adjusted for inflammatory markers as well So this is not just heme iron man. If you're talking about heme iron and risk for this study It's 1.09 to 1.23, which in any no no frank frank you're miss reading things So in this meta-analysis the pooled risk ratio for type 2 diabetes In individuals with the highest levels of heme iron intake was 1.33 and they they did another risk ratio for Uh a daily increment of 1 milligram of heme iron, uh, which was a risk ratio of 1.16 Dude, honestly, like I like this has been like honestly like at least two hours out of this to me has just been completely Unproductive and bullshit and going back and forth on a study. That is really admissible frank Um, I just want to know uh why you think it's a good idea to intake any amount of heme iron when the vast majority of research shows It's harmful to human health First of all your research does not show that at all And I will and and you can let the you can let the chat interpret People can read these studies. Uh, and when the authors say there was a significant increase in risk of heart disease Diabetes and cancer from intake of heme iron Like I'm sure they'll interpret it that yeah, they didn't find any association between heme iron intake and risk of disease Well, no, they will when people read the studies and then they look at the relative risk And then they look at the methods they use and the actual data they use for these studies They'd probably laugh in your face, but to answer the question of Should we be taking heme iron? I said this earlier. It's in the context of the whole food in itself It's not you're not taking You're not physically taking heme iron and Ingesting it you're ingesting it in the context of either of an inflammatory food such as whether it's bacon or sausage or some processed meat Or you're consuming it in its natural context And then if you wanted to discuss, okay, what are the negative things of consuming those foods and those foods? That's a discussion you can have if you're trying to isolate this compound and use these studies with these super low Relative risk ratios. It does not make any sense. Okay. Well, frank Do you have any evidence that consuming heme iron from ideal sources is not linked with any type of disease? You can laboratory data or like any kind of mechanistic data that would suggest that This is not the burden of proof of me is not necessarily So you don't have any evidence for these claims. Okay No, the the evidence behind the claim is if you're consuming foods in order to get adequate nutrient density in the diet that Heme iron is present in those foods invariably Okay, frank I asked you if you have any evidence that heme iron from ideal sources Whatever those might be do you have any evidence that heme iron from these ideal sources? Do does not increase risk of chronic disease either from population-based data or from laboratory data? Do you mean like a positive association with higher heme iron lovers or just the foods that contain heme iron? No, just like the foods that contain heme iron say if you're eating Grass-fed beef liver or something like that or whatever you'd consider ideal heme iron intake Whatever that is. Do you have any data whether it's population-based or just like laboratory experimental Data, do you have any like data showing that heme iron intake from these ideal sources Is not associated or could not increase disease risk You just mean like anything in regards to consumption or pretty much any animal product that contains heme iron that shows No, we're talking about what you consider an ideal source. Oh like um Man is that Well, what would I look for? because like frank uh vegans don't have a higher risk of Like iron deficiency than meat-eaters. So what would be the point of coming like like what do you want me to like do you want me to show like Like well, you're claiming like consuming fish is associated with higher levels of No, no frank you're you're claiming that the research I linked was using Less than ideal sources of heme iron for their the basis for their research Uh, the only thing I'm saying about your research is the relative risk is too low to get any conclusive data. That's all I'm saying Okay, so like a 30 increased risk is insignificant to you. No the point is not that it's First of all, that's not the average in all those studies Second of all, it varies even in that study with you're saying 30 it was like from 1.04 to 1.67 And anyone who looks at relative risk ratios and data understands that that is not admissible as correct data I'm not I'm not explaining this again. I've explained this five times So what do you want me to show you that consuming a food that has Heme iron in it can be beneficial for your health? Uh, yeah, well, no Like I I'm asking you do you have any data showing that heme iron from ideal sources? Doesn't have this pro-oxidant effect or doesn't increase risk of chronic disease like heart disease diabetes cancer Uh, maybe this is something hold on And what would be the point of consuming heme iron in the first place? It's not the necessary point of as I said It's not necessarily the point of consuming heme iron the point is to consume High vitamin foods that it just inherently have heme iron. Okay. Well vegans don't have an increased risk of iron deficiency vitamin a deficiency vitamin k deficiency, so I'm not really understanding the argument here. I'm just let me just read something here real quick Okay, so this study I mean listen man, honestly, I don't have really I don't really have good studies that I would really like to be using for this or uh things that I think are great illustrations of my point, but it's definitely something we can Uh discuss on so this study that I just found This talks about dietary intake of iron heme iron magnesium and pancreatic cancer risk in European prospective investigations the cancer nutrition cohort and If we look at the results Intakes of total iron and heme iron were highest in spain greece in france Although for heme iron dietary instincts were even higher in sweden and los in the united kingdom The relative distribution across the country is comparable and then we look at the data magnesium take iron intake heme iron Uh The median so if we look at the heme iron intake in let's say, what's the high one? Well, what's the highest one here? If we look at the heme iron median, let me just link the the image address of the chart I'm not sure if you're looking at the right the same one as me. So that's the image address of the chart And I actually I have not looked at this before I'm going through right now. Just keep that in mind If we look at the heme iron intake in denmark It's 1.9 and the age year's median is 56 and that's the highest one if we look at low heme iron Which is the uk 0.5 Then the age median is 52. So there's there actually Three years lower life expectancy, but then if we look at The the just the iron intake in general between the uk and denmark It was slightly lower in the uk and the magnesium intake is only slightly lower too so the most they literally consume four times the amount of Heme iron in denmark and they have a three-year age median that's higher But is the age median? What does that indicate? That's just well frank. None of this is really what I was asking for um, you're trying to claim that The research I referenced um They were focusing on non ideal sources of iron and on top of that the the risk ratios weren't significant enough No, they're not that's the only basis for your studies. The risk ratios are not significant enough So why is a risk ratio of 1.27 not significant because it's not 1.27 It's 1.0 whatever to 1.6 whatever that that's why it's not significant if they find Outliers and this is if you look at risk ratios for things that are commonly accepted It's way different. Like let me go look at the risk of Let me go look at the risk of colorectal cancer and heme iron real quick. Give me like two minutes Well, frank give me an example of something that has an adequate like risk ratio where you could associate it with disease Like any food What what do you mean? Like you want me to find a food that has a high risk ratio with disease? Yeah, like what's a food that you would consider has that has a an adequate risk ratio for a particular disease? Uh, it should be what i'm about to look at right now the um the processed meats but If what I remember is correct in this study Because by your standard, I I literally think there's absolutely no food that you can say is increases risk of disease if you need a risk ratio of like two Two Yeah, uh Where is the relative risk? Where is the summary? So what are you trying to find? I'm just looking up the risk for colorectal cancer and processed meat Okay, I don't think you'll find a risk ratio of two Yeah, I'm just looking at the data. I had there was something I wanted to Just look over so You wanted to also see something that just showed that consuming meat has inverse associations with Just colorectal cancer. Would that be adequate for the well an association or sorry, you're you're saying processed meat No, this is just regular meat like um like pork or blam has both an inverse and Positive association with colorectal cancer. It shows both und drastically different ends So I'm not understanding what you're saying. Um, it's just pretty much showing that they looked at They looked at like a a regular meat product that maybe I would consider healthy such as Uh, just a steak or something and they showed that it has Like a 0.5 to 1.5 Uh risk ratio, which means that you know whole meat In general has no risk associated with colorectal cancer And the reason that's relevant is because colorectal cancer is probably Uh, direct is not probably but colorectal cancer is directly associated with heme iron and nitrate composition of the food But if if we have I'm looking I see another study right now Case control studies published in 2003 2007 on the relationship between processed meat and taking colorectal cancer risk In china the preserved meats have a 1.5 to 2.9 and a 1.9 to 3.8 So odd ratio is 2.7 and 2 in china for that study Okay So there are definitely Uh, you know That there's that's an example of the colorectal cancer risk being pretty significant. You know, it's almost three Uh, and then there's and then there are If I know you we're gonna Okay, well, what about heart disease? And what the heme iron Like anything Just like if you say a risk ratio of like 1.27 isn't significant then Is there any food? Just real quick, uh, you edit the well the silence or Sorry, just edit the silence or this is all just live Like when you publish it. Okay. So, uh, I did want to apologize for not getting all this research in front of me and making this Go back and forth a lot. Uh, so did we want to just kind of summarize like our thoughts on iron and heme iron? Well, yeah, sure. I mean the majority of the data just shows that heme iron intake is harmful to human health You can find some research that doesn't find an association But overall like and I think especially for heart disease and diabetes. Uh, there is a pretty strong association So I guess let's let's just kind of so you so basically the heme iron thing in regards to the The the oxidation and the cholesterol and all of that stuff We don't have enough, you know information behind the metabolic processes to really discuss that in depth In regards to heme iron and nitroso compounds We can safely say that certain processed meat products are literally poisoned in regards to colorectal cancer in regards to In regards to the actual studies you linked in in regards to the heme iron associations The relative risk is too low to say anything and in regards to the studies that I just looked at now There's us and this confirms the, um You know the that, you know processed meat, especially like the chinese processed meat that they were consuming Is should not be consumed by anyone and that the but the risk for actual meat And like whole cuts of beef Is actually inversely associated, you know, they found positive associations with colorectal cancer and consuming just regular fresh meat So there's definitely A lot of it was literally 0.5. It was literally like and then let me Like i'm looking I'm looking at the sheet right now Frank another thing to consider is heart disease prevalence is so incredibly high to begin with That you also have to consider when you you see a risk ratio of 1.27 or something That's probably more significant than it sounds You mean because in the context of their overall health Yeah, I mean in the general population heart disease risk is so high to begin with Um like an increased risk ratio of 1.27 is more significant than it sounds I mean, especially if you consider You know, hey, maybe just this one substance is 1.27 Then if you take 30 other goddamn things and they're all 1.27, that's where we have an issue Um, no, there's definitely a lot of truth and merit to that. Uh, but if I mean, do we want to just start talking about like Uh, do we want to keep talking about specific things like heart disease in relation to meat? Or do we just want to talk about how overall most people that consume animal products are just consuming them in the context of such unhealthy diets Okay, well, you know what? I I think we should kind of wrap up the health topic and I'd like to discuss the ethics here If you want to have like any kind of final statements about these things Uh, yeah, I just wanted to apologize again for me not having Um, a lot of things together. I you know, I've been going on some Uh job interviews lately. I haven't had uh, really any time to sleep let alone Put a lot of effort into this and I do appreciate You taking the time to discuss these topics with me despite my Uh, you know having to kind of fumble and get the studies and talk about things but you know specifically all these points I think there's in in about half the cases There's definitely associations in the context of standard american diets and most people right now where they're Definitely detrimental health effects to consuming a lot of these substances that are in meat And on the other hand, there's a lot of studies that don't show association And we have to understand that the context that they are being consumed in is more important As well as other factors like lifestyle and and other things can kind of just Really set the precedent for uh And I guess the the vitamin thing, you know the plant versus animal vitamins Is is especially a topic that needs to be researched more and just Especially us without the context of biochemistry and the lack of understanding of all of these things to go in depth And really dispute these things especially with you know, just the the few studies we have and what they're relevant to is It's very difficult to um To really say anything definitive with the exception of a few things Okay, so um, my final statement about the health topic is I think there's uh, an adequate amount of research showing That animal products do increase chronic disease risk in humans And um, if we look at studies like the Adventist cohorts, it's pretty clear that lifelong vegans can be perfectly healthy Live very long uh, healthy lives free of chronic disease again, uh vegans and the Adventist cohorts lowest rates of diabetes heart disease Cancer hypertension lowest rates of obesity and uh in the Adventist cohorts They were the second longest living. Uh, they were beaten out by an average of two to three years by fish eaters But uh, nonetheless, you can eat you can live a very long healthy life as a vegan and for that reason um, I think it's unethical to uh, You know kill animals exploit them, uh, you know through agriculture Um, and that'll be the segue into the ethics topic Can I touch slightly on you saying the long healthy happy vegan thing? Uh, the Adventist so In uh, what's interesting is it was I believe it was a Georgian or Siberian group of people and They had a very very high infant mortality rate. It was something like 25 or 30 like 25 to 35 percent I believe and After infant mortality their life expectancy was like over 90. It was crazy and uh, they're diet For what? Which group of people? I think it was Georgians. I don't want to say specifically, but let me finish the story before. Um, Georgians Uh, yeah, so but the point is that in Florida. No like, uh, the Georgian country in uh, okay I haven't heard of this sorry Georgians are cat cartvallions or nation and Caucasian ethnic group native to Georgia Now, let me just look exactly where on the map it is Uh Okay, so you're saying if you account for child mortality, they had a very high average This is actually in agreeance with you on the plant-based diet So these people had a high infant mortality rate, but once they got past that infant mortality rate They lived very old and their diets were actually life expectancy after I mean, let me if I could try to find the I try to google this earlier um because Right now as far as I know, uh, oh, it's not that it's definitely it's definitely not that it was um, but these people know my point is these people I think their diet was like 80 to 90 80 almost 80 at least 80 Maybe yeah at least 80 percent plant-based. So they had a lot of heirloom grains They had a lot of you know, they made their own vodka. They made their own um They made their whatever just like living off the land so to speak but very heavily plant-based off of grains Prepared in traditional ways, you know soak the grains reduce the anti-nutrient content, especially that's the only grain they're eating and They lived very long and happy lives But one thing to keep in mind is and all of these other civilizations that live really long I've noticed they're very very active like these people would literally hike for 10 12 hours a day Uh, there's definitely some factors in that but So to summarize that to my understanding you can live a very long and healthy life on a plant-based diet But these people had you know 10 20 of their intake was from those high vitamin animal food animal foods And can we replicate that with modern supplements? Possibly. So it's definitely interesting that it seems that you can live a long and happy life as a vegan outside of the context of that infant mortality because the reason those people had a high infant mortality rate Is because they did not have the nutrition that they needed in regards to certain vitamins and fats during the developmental stages of the children Okay, do you know what in particular? No, but if you can imagine if the only food they have to eat is grain for a period of months And and they don't have any meat or fat. They just don't have a really a source of Fat soluble vitamins at all I mean, that's pretty it's pretty much well. They didn't have just as well be something like b12 or iodine Yeah, but in the context of their diet, it was just It was just so low like right vegans now They get so much more b12 iron and fat soluble vitamins Especially like people eat a lot of avocados and like you have to understand these people do not have access to plant-based fats You know, they didn't have access to that So it's definitely interesting to see if we could replace The animal fats with modern methods of plant fats, but that was just something I wanted to throw in there Some interesting anecdotes. So, uh, you do believe you can live like a long healthy life as a vegan Well, yeah, you can but it's also interesting, you know, you know how like Like us italians are pretty short and how people in certain areas of the world have various statues depending on their past diets and history, I think that has a lot to do with You know italians are it's speculative that the reason italians are shorter is because They had a higher amount of grain in their diet and lack of maybe Not as many vitamins as someone in a different part of the world would have during their developmental stages So there's something to be spoken about the necessity of having a certain amount of vitamins during growth And if that can be obtained On a plant-based diet, that's the only questionable thing that I had Right. Well, but during infancy Like, you know, your main fat source is going to be breast milk You the question the only question in that is if uh, like during the pregnancy period and the gestation period If the mother had adequate vitamins in her diet, you know, most of the time for the first can affect it Sure. Yeah, no, that was just something to bring up. I mean, we don't have to dwell too much on that Okay, but otherwise you do believe that uh, people can live like long healthy lives in a vegan diet Yeah, outside of that initial developmental context modern intervention so So why do you think it's uh morally acceptable to uh, like kill and eat animals Should I say that like I have actually Slaughtered animals myself. Is that important in this argument? Like I'm willing to do it Because I know that's I know some people have a problem with people that just Go to the supermarket and buy meat off the shelf Yeah, so I mean, I know a lot of people like I really do Listen, if I if it was up to me and I could just let the animal live and live off of its milk and eggs and things like that I would do it because I really do appreciate life in general whether it's Uh, you know a plant or an animal. I really do appreciate life and I understand Uh, you know in the context of my health when I'm taking the life of an animal Um, you know, it is an inherently cruel thing that I think has just been done for Hundreds of thousands if not millions of years and it's just part of kind of almost human nature at this point as as just predators and hunters that it's something we've done and kind of accepted but uh The the question about is it acceptable and to to get on the topic of morals I guess a a point I could just say is I respect animals I Make sure that the animals I purchase and the food that I purchased live the happy and healthy life and that The slaughter process was as humane and caused as little pain to the animal as possible Okay, so, um Like I think we can understand that causing unnecessary suffering is wrong But uh, why do you draw the distinction at suffering and not include, uh, killing So like why are you fine with killing but you're not the only reason i'm okay with uh I What's what's it called when you have cognition and you're like aware of yourself as an animal and uh, you ever Yeah, like just like yeah, like you know how like some children can be feral sometimes like that or left abandoned I don't know if necessarily children but a better example would be like feral cats and how they're they're they're living off of their instincts And I think us humans at a time Just lived off of our instincts so to speak and having this cognition and ability to understand that Killing an animal might not be what we would want to happen to ourselves is Might not be good, but it's just been part of us and part of nature And it's weird because our instincts and what we've been doing for years and years and years have been Hunt kill the animal. This is how we need to live and how we need to survive How do you know that's an instinct? I mean because you know primitive humans before we really had cognition and before we really had um And even if you look at there's a great book called the hunting apes where monkeys and chimpanzees would just They would hunt and and get meat and and very very brutal stories to be honest, but well sure um This like this can all be a part of culture. How do you know that's an instinct? Well, I mean my point was that it used to be an instinct and now it's become part of culture and just things that we've done Right, so how does that justify killing? Do you mean in a sense? I mean in a sense of like getting nutrition for ourselves and surviving ourselves Well, like you know, you've already agreed at this point that you can be healthy on a vegan diet or uh At the very least a plant-based diet like let's say Okay, like for the sake of argument. I don't actually believe this myself But you could at least be vegetarian and you know, maybe eat some eggs and dairy here and there and still be in good health Um, so why wouldn't you like at least reduce the amount of animal products you're consuming just to Not kill as many sentient beings. Are you talking about like me personally? Yeah, yeah, I mean I try to I mean I consume less than 1500 calories a day I eat literally minimally as possible. Um, I used to try to I've always tried to use Milk and dairy products, but I'm very very allergic. I'm actually trying them again this week probably a bad idea But in all of my attempts to do this, it's pretty much the only reason I haven't been able to To reduce my food intake and I believe that you know from everything to just consuming less calories to saving money to being less wasteful to having to kill fewer animals Um that it's it's an important thing to do and I've actively tried to do that but with my severe food allergies and intolerances and Ability to just feel good and energize on certain foods. I've just Used that as the justification for me to feel healthy and be a productive human being so Frank have you ever gotten a test for candida or uh sebo like bacterial infection in the small intestine? I've gotten yeah, I've gotten I didn't have any of them. I mean the doctor just pretty much said I had tests on the I didn't have tests on the um I didn't have tests on the the candida came back just like didn't matter at all the the sebo. No Come back positive or not. No. No negative. Um, but this dude you have to keep in mind like this was I was on I was on a I've been on a carnivore die for six years and But I had that test like three years ago. Like I'm not gonna there's no way Like I would have had candida three years ago after being on a carnivore died for three years Well, no, you can that's not going to just cure candida No, I didn't I didn't have it to answer that question But what is that what is the that's just the relevance to my health in general in my gut Well, you're you're talking about food intolerances a lot of the time people who think they have like a food intolerance or an allergy It's actually caused by uh, candida like a fungal infection. No, I mean, I've had I've had allergy testing I've seen, you know, I've seen well, it's different than an allergy test. So what's the doctor gastroenterologists? What's it called? Yeah, doctor. Yeah, I've seen I've seen a lot of them as well in New York City Well, you want to make sure that you don't have bacterial overgrowth in your small intestine And you also want to make sure that you don't have any parasites candida or fungal infection Because all of those things can make you sensitive to certain foods because they prevent you from breaking down things like Oxalates, salicylates, histamines that are common in plant foods That normally wouldn't be a problem because your body can easily break down. I mean, I do have a A pretty severe histamine intolerance in general. Okay. I mean that's that's one one thing worth mentioning about my allergies So have you ever actually gotten um, a test like these tests done to confirm that you don't have any parasites a bacterial overgrowth in your small intestine and uh, Candida fungal infection I mean, I had all I had stool samples taken and had it tested in December of last year Do you know specifically what for though? They did the oh, they did bacteria They did the parasites and then But the candida was Before that the candida was like a year or two before that But I definitely don't have any fungal bacteria infections or okay I I just because these are confirmed with both, uh, stool and urine tests I like no, I literally had a stool test like, uh, eight well nine months ago now Like do you know what they were actually testing for? Yeah, that it was literally because I ate like Five pounds of alaskan salmon that had worms in it So I got the test for the parasites and then they also tested the back full bacteria They did a full bacteria panel on the stool whatever that was, uh, and no I'm not sure if that actually tests for bacterial overgrowth in the stomach. You mean like fungus No, for small intestine, I did not get The only test to clarify The candida test was like three years ago The the stool sample test, which was in December of 2017 was all the bacteria and the parasites Okay um This still isn't very clear it like I'm not sure if you actually got the test done for bacterial overgrowth Um, so that might be something you want to look into and there's also two tests involving that like a urine and stool test I had no, I might want to look into that again I don't know specifically if they tested for that, but it was both a urine and a stool test and I did it twice like 10 weeks apart Uh, but the even all of these hypothetical things What is I mean, what is your like solution to These is it an elimination diet? Is it medication? Is it certain anti histamine drugs? Well, it depends Uh, like if you have bacterial overgrowth in your small intestine, you'd want to take um Antibiotics if it's like a fungal infection, you'd want to take an antifungal if it's parasitic antiparasitic medication Um, I'm just thinking that these food intolerances you have. Um, it's likely due to some sort of uh, Like intestinal problem you have that might be able to be fixed with medication I mean, I've had you have to understand I've had these food allergies and problems my whole life. Uh, even before this diet and Uh, but dude, I have literally fasted for three weeks on just water. So Well, that's not really going to do anything. I don't yeah I just wanted to bring that up and hypothetical if that would actually affect how much that would affect, you know, that bacteria if it would No, it wouldn't really a lot of people Think it would but it doesn't you'd need antibiotics to like get rid of uh Like bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine and you know other things like that if it's a parasite Um, it it might be worth looking into because it sounds like you'd actually prefer to eat a plant-based diet Wouldn't you? Uh, like for ethical reasons at least. Um, you know, I'd have to on it like I've tried in the past Incorporating more plant-based foods and I've just haven't been able to Uh, for like what foods in particular have you tried? Like naturally fermented iron corn bread Uh, various heirloom grains naturally fermented sweet potatoes blueberries macadamia nuts Uh, see we just have problems with blueberries Yeah, um like what happens when you when you eat blueberries, uh, they come out as blueberries Oh, really? That's And this wasn't like one time and I had blueberries for about a month straight and they were still doing that so Okay. Um, yeah, like a big problem that I believe is Uh, you know, you got to think of a blue like I just have that intolerance to Foods that are old, you know, like the blue like what was the blueberry picked two months ago thrown frozen thrown in a bag And then I get it two months later, you know, like the Well, most people don't have these sorts of problems So it sounds like there's some sort of issue with your digestion That could possibly be fixed No, I mean I agree completely that a lot of people would probably be able and as I spoke about earlier all these indigenous groups consumed 50 to 60 of their calories from well, not Maybe like 55 to 65 of their calories from animal foods and then the remainder from plant foods and there were Uh varying depends it depends on the tribe you're talking about. Yeah, that's what yeah, yeah for sure Yeah, that's exactly Huge source of calories for them was honey. Yeah, and they also eat blueberries and shit Yeah, every every I am I am not against incorporating plant based foods into your diet For both nutrient density and just you know out of enjoyment as well as just energy I'm not against that. It's just uh, the problem for me is the plant foods that I have access to and the ones I have purchased are either exponentially more expensive than meat Or uh, I just can't tolerate them. Those are my personal issues with it Okay, so for everyone else like the general population, would you say they should follow a plant based diet for at least ethical reasons? I mean the swiss and the lochental valley, which is in weston prices book all they ate for All they really ate was cheese dairy and rye bread and they were perfectly healthy So in the context of that diet, I mean, that's that's perfectly possible if your gut can tolerate those foods Is that answer? No, I'm not saying that like I mean an actual vegan diet. Would you recommend people eat a vegan diet for ethical reasons? For ethical. Well, if we want to talk about ethical reasons, then we got to start talking about You know, where were your plant foods from and how does that affect things? That's I was like if we're talking about like are we talking about strictly ethically like the treatment of animals? Because we know with a lot of modern farming methods like Habitats are displaced herbicides and pesticides. That's going to happen regardless Like it's that's going to happen regardless and we know that there's inherently Some but the question I guess that I would like to bring up is you know, would you rather? You know for me the way I look at it is You know participate in local agriculture Make sure you know the animal that you buy or purchase or the dairy you get is from an animal that has lived a healthy life And then the plant foods that you buy are local and not produced in that you know conventional monocropping or whatever That to me is ideal whether or not whether the food is animal or plant based that you're supporting kind of almost local or smaller agriculture But then when you get into the debate of you know Should someone you know for me if you start going to the supermarket and buying stuff. I'm like well Compared to what I just mentioned that's already a negative isn't it because you know you're with the previous thing You know you could be you know ethical and beneficial for the environment But now when you start buying stuff in the supermarket and questioning where foods are from And how the meat was treated or where the grain or maybe you know if that grain was Who knows what like that that becomes questionable for me to I guess to answer your question Me personally supporting local agriculture. I'm not worried about those factors of you know things that are going to happen anyway like A fawn getting ground up in a harvested machine or like mice getting displaced and then hawks eating them because They they you know, I'm not thinking about those things because I don't purchase food from those types of systems Well, you're going to displace natural native wildlife if you support any form of agriculture Uh, I mean in the context of like, uh, you're talking about grass-fed animals Like the amount of land use is massively increased. So you're actually going to In the united in the united states, we don't really uh, we don't necessarily displace Other animals for pasture, but in other countries that is a big problem. Well, you do. Well, you you do. Um, like small rodents are displaced by uh Like grass-fed pasture raised cattle. I mean, yeah, but what's the difference between like, um, I mean, yeah, we're doing it ourselves inherently, but Isn't that more of like a net like let's say like a group of I don't know some bison roamed across the plains and found themselves in a new Area, uh, there's a difference between We'll know they'd get preyed upon because they're not in their You know, they're not in their native environment. You know, I agree. I agree with that, but uh, like the thing too is frank, um Regardless of the method of agriculture, um more animals die in the animal agriculture industry than in plant agriculture um That I mean, that's you know, the question that I would ask is You know, what's worse? What's worse killing one cow to feed yourself for a year or What, you know, how many animal like what then you have to place a value on sentient beings that's like One cow wouldn't feed you for an entire year I mean on a zero-carb carnivore diet it could No, uh, I I don't think so. Um like and again per unit of land There's a much greater yield For I mean it takes it only takes it's depending on the quality of pasture between one to two acres per cattle grazing but The the hanging way two acres For like in the context of the whole farm It's usually one to anyway. It depends. It's it could be as low as one It could be as high as three acres depending on the pasture and the irrigation Uh for the cattle I think you're way underestimating that that's that's not for one animal One animal that is it and that's you keep in mind they graze the pasture They and then a few weeks later. They're back to that same plot of land That's the with proper pastoral management, but that's not what I wanted to focus on um The hanging I I mean I used to I used to work in steakhouses and stuff So I'm familiar with the the hanging weight of all these animals and the modern grain fed steer that people buy in When they're buying their Costco ribeyes, I don't really want to talk about that We could talk about more because those animals will be up to 2 000 pound live weight if we're talking about an average grass-fed animal Usually depending on the age they can get up to like end the breed and whether it's Various factors that can get up to like I guess the high end would be not the high end But a generous average would be 800 pounds live weight for a grass-fed animal, which would yield about Uh What is it maybe like 600 hanging weight and then you have the organs that are not included that you can eat as well So, you know 600 500 600 pounds of meat and organs for a year You know Maybe a couple things thrown in there, but that's sustainable as a person's main caloric source for a year Okay, uh, well frank this also isn't about one cow like again You are going to displace natural native wildlife in whatever amount of land you're using even if it's just Uh small rodents. Yeah, but if you're to like no well those the problem with that saying that is those rodents work with the ecosystem That's just if you have an ideal Pastured environment the ecosystem, you know the cows graze the chickens come and eat the flies on the cow poop Like you have a system that works there They're going to compete with natural native wildlife and they're going to end up pushing out those rodents from that area of land Because they're competing But then the question is that we can't really Answer is what's worse, you know that we can't well. Yeah, I mean we can speculate Is that worse than you is that worse than you taking a A monocrop and displacing, you know multiples more animals because of that and well again Like plant agriculture takes up less land. So yes, you'd end up displacing fewer animals but I mean, let's talk about like Avocados and and the probably slave-like conditions that people Used to eat those foods there. I mean there's various problems with a lot of foods that Plant-based dieters are emphasizing on as opposed to going local and and eating local grains and local stuff Listen listen frank like I mean you've worked in a slaughterhouse before I don't know if you've ever been on the kill floor, but I've actually I haven't I haven't worked in one But I have been in one. Yes, okay Like I've talked to a lot of slaughterhouse workers gotten into fights with them and They're on edge like crazy because they're doing horrible fucking work that they don't want to do well keeping my Well, look, you're talking about or not the slaughterhouses. I'm talking about okay Well, no all all these animals go to the same slaughterhouses The like the only exception is maybe fucking Mennonites and I'm not talking about I I do I go to muslim butchers for my meat That's what I go to okay. Well, I don't go to there's actually water houses There's a kosher and halal slaughterhouse in Toronto, and I see what they do Um, it's it's a video up on my channel. It's in Toronto major city Um, they hang these animals up uh upside down slash their throats open while they're fully conscious Uh by the time they start skinning them Some of them are still conscious, uh, and they don't give a shit Okay, so you might you might not like me for saying this but I did that myself on monday We we took a little billy boy We hung them up on the hooks and I slid his throat and We let him bleed out. What did you what did you feel after doing that? Uh, you know, I felt like I was doing it Better than going into the supermarket and buying my fucking meat. I honestly was bad I wasn't happy about it to say the least, you know, I understand I had to take the life of the animal and It was kind of necessary for my survival But uh, you know it was done with it was done with respect and as Clean as possible well frank like I can understand that point of view but I've been to these slaughterhouses where people do this shit all fucking day long. They're constantly on edge and I know I agree with you what those people do is not acceptable Well, listen, like they're constantly on edge and they they're very quickly to get into fights with you because They're so pissed off from working in the shit all day. Yeah, I'm killing them And like look, uh, like the most recent statistic was like 97 percent of animals are like factory farmed Yeah, that's that's probably like you're talking about the vast vast vast majority nearly 100 of the industry works like this And you think that's like better than okay You know avocado farmers getting kind of cheated out of the decent deal for their crops like, okay that's bad But picking avocados I don't think it's nearly as stressful as having to slit animals' throats open I mean, it's not necessarily about, um It's not necessarily about, you know, the physical act of picking avocados or what these slaughterhouse workers have to do It's it's the whole picture, you know It's like these grain fed animals that they you know, they wean them off the mother too early They put them on pasture for whatever period of time then they feed them this crude soy And then they go to the slaughterhouse like these animals have lived miserable unhappy lives And then they get slaughtered by miserable people that are working in these slaughterhouses Well, there's a reason this is going on in the first place It's because it's way more efficient takes up way less land And it makes it cheap and affordable enough for people to eat and it supplies the demand You know, there there have been a lot of people that are way more educated in regards to pastoral management and agriculture than me that You know, it is possible to move towards more sustainable agriculture But that's not what people want people don't want to people want to spend a dollar a pound on chicken breast They don't want to spend three dollars a pound people want to buy those Costco rib eyes for 11 dollars a pound They don't want to have to do what I do They don't want to have to go down to the muslim slaughterhouse buy a whole animal and I was boiling I was boiling the vertebrae and the you know, I was eating foods. I didn't necessarily want to eat Have you bought a whole animal? Yeah, it was the whole whole lamb How much did it cost? How much did it cost? I bought a six the live weight was 60 pounds. It cost the $270 and that should feed me for about three weeks Three weeks. Okay. I've like I've bought I think a 30 pound bag of lentils from Costco that lasts me for several months the the nutrition and The there's a lot I'm not saying I'm not saying lentils are 100% nutritionally complete But you get a ton of nutrition that's a staple of my diet and that lasts for several months And I really don't need to add too much if cost is a comparison thing here man I'm not the guy to talk to I I literally used to go to the farmers market and spend I would spend $10 for a dozen turkey eggs like I would go buy You know a gallon of raw goat milk is at least $15 So this food in order to support these local farmers and buy quality food you need to pay A decent price. I mean, yeah, I could drive out to pennsylvania and get if I want to drive a while I could get good prices on this but you know supporting local farmers is Although in the context of how much money people spend on food in general depending on your budget It's not too much more and a lot of people on the carnivore diet spend just as much as me They just buy foods that they want to eat and foods that are way different than what I eat Right, but this just isn't practical for the vast majority of people is what i'm getting at Um, well, I mean that depends exactly. I mean, that's right How much effort do you want to put into caring about ethics and your lifestyle and the environment? How much effort do you want to put into it? Do you want to spend that $10 a pound for pasture chicken? Do you want to go down on your saturday off or do you want to go to you know The do you want to go to chip riani and drink mimosas or do you want to go down and I smelled like fucking shit, man I smelled terrible all day. I was sweating my guts out cutting this animal open putting this stuff away I was willing to do that but most people I agree most people are not So given that, uh, wouldn't you recommend a vegan diet for the vast majority of people? You know, it's like I guess I don't like answering I don't like answering these questions you asked me like yes or no but uh, what I can say about that is Oddly enough most people that go on not oddly enough But you know most people like I want a vegan diet do get healthier because of how bad the standard american diet is and I actually made a video that I think I deleted that said everyone should go vegan because It's better than what you're doing now. That's for sure The only thing that might happen if you go vegan is you might get a b12 or iron deficiency, which happens um, but In in regards to being optimally healthy I think we need to look at fat soluble vitamin and vitamin and take more but For a lot of people unfortunately and I I don't want to speculate on a percentage But in the united states possibly 60 to 70 percent of people maybe even more would see probably just it's overall healthier And then there's maybe a select percentage of people that actually do eat fairly healthy and that get a decent amount of vitamins from certain foods That might see Differences but uh, that's just speculation man. That's not a you know definitive answer Okay, so you can't agree that it's a good idea to Reduce animal product consumption as much as you can at the very least But what are you talking about are you talking about because like americans get like 11 to 14 percent of their diet is protein Like it's not high So reducing their animal into I think it's more about Products aren't just protein. I think I think it's more about replacing shit in general with More whole foods. I think that's what I would agree on Whether or not their plant-based is up to you, but I think just replacing Those foods you're eating with either high quality plant-based foods or high quality animal foods is what you should be doing Okay, well frank like let's say hypothetically if you could be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet, you didn't have these digestive issues Would you do it? You know, it's funny if if you have Let's say someone develops perfectly and they had all the vitamins they need and they're this like They're this like six foot two Adonis guy and then what if I if you had proper development and got to that point in your life where Mortality and development are not an issue and then you went on a plant-based diet Yeah, to me my answer would be as long as I'm getting enough fat soluble vitamins in my diet through Supplements or other means or maybe like eggs and milk and I mean not I don't know if you're To like I don't know what your general consensus is on the vegetarian stuff But yeah, I mean that would be you know to get you know, 20 30 percent of my calories from high vitamin foods And then 70 percent plant-based. I wouldn't have a problem with that No, well, what about 100 percent vegan if you didn't have these digestive issues And you could eat blueberries and whatever vegan foods and vitamins and supplements you needed to be healthy Would you my my my issue would be is All right, let me answer I can answer that with this statement if If in regards to metabolic processes in the body The vitamins and the fats and the cholesterol and everything that's needed for optimal cell function and metabolic function If my body was able to do that on this diet I would do it but those things the supplementing those vitamins and the bioavailability and all those things to me That just hasn't been enough research done on it and I would honestly rather trust the natural foods in that context Does that answer it? Okay. Well, given the fact that like according to the Adventist cohorts like vegans are Very healthy. They're at least healthier than vegetarians and the general population Uh lowest rates of chronic disease Like that isn't indication to you enough that like if you didn't have these digestive problems you do find on a vegan diet Well, no because like I spoke about those Georgians earlier. They're pretty much the op are they You know, are they the opposite of the messai in regards to plant versus animal-based diets? Yes But they're both very active. They're both living their natural way. They both have very low stress lives and to say that I mean, I'm in agreement that a plant-based diet you can be healthy on it's just to me The only thing that I think is questionable is just that base vitamin content. That's my only concern Well, frank the messai had very high rates of heart disease Like you even admitted this yourself like the prevalence of the disease was very high It's just the mortality of the disease was disproportionately low Yeah, but when i'm 90 years old and my uh, my aorta is like this big and i'm still alive Maybe there's a little fat in it, but you you don't know what that's from Uh, and these are like very small populations spread across a large area I know that that was a little bit of a joke kind of my I know what you mean, but it's just not very good information to go on when you have these small populations spread across a large area They don't have a lifestyle like they have a lifestyle very differently very different from yours Um, it just doesn't really make sense to think well I can eat all these animal products and avoid death from heart disease because Like some tribes people in africa can get away with it You know, you know for me just my understanding of like the main culprits of pretty much disease in general just being not eating whole foods is to me You know regardless of whether it's a plant-based diet or an animal-based diet I'm comfortable with my health in either regard Oh, okay. Um, but the problem is you know, these certain animal foods have been proven to increase disease risk So like it would be ideal. I'm sorry. Do we I'm sorry to not to interrupt you But do we want to go back into this or what was like not really like I mean we've kind of already covered health but Like it's kind of hard to talk about this because your ethical standpoint kind of Involves, you know your health beliefs as well um But like just assuming like you didn't have these digestive problems and You could do at least as well as the vegans in the Adventist cohort Um, why wouldn't you go on a vegan diet? No, I mean if if if you're saying I would literally be just as healthy as I am now That's what you're saying, right? Yeah, sure Then I'd be fine with it But that is okay those that has other problems that I have kind of gone over a couple times Okay, so you would you would agree then that most people should go vegan I said dude, I just said this 10 minutes ago like most people in America would be healthier as vegans Unfortunately, that's just how bad the standard american diet is Okay, well is the vegan diet bad? I think I mean listen, I go to these like An Israel and interesting anecdote here is I go to these like these halal markets these Muslim markets and a lot of these people i'm the only white guy there But the reason i'm saying that is because all these people that come from these countries are still Consuming their cultural and their indigenous beliefs and they are for the most part Very from what I can see on the outside Physically healthy people. They're you know, they're skinny. They're muscular. They have You know, it looks like they had ideal facial proportions throughout development in their life and these people that are why am I bringing this up because Like from what cultures are you talking about? African culture is mostly um, muslim muslim middle eastern culture They still have high rates of heart disease Uh, depending on the location. Yeah Uh, yeah, I I mean, I think it's the Ugandans who have very low rates of disease, but uh, they eat a corn-based diet It's again, it's hard to say what what was the original the the original question before that was if Most people should be like what used to you asked me what's wrong with a vegan diet in general Right, so the reason I brought that up is because those people that I see at these markets They're getting this vitamin content in their diet regardless of what else they're getting They're sticking to their traditional roots of getting those nutrients. So There might actually be the reason I'm bringing this up because it's those people that I see in these markets From my opinion would be healthier than a vegan because they're getting these high vitamin animal foods and Well, it's this isn't just about vitamins like the macronutrient content of the diet also matters and um I know we disagree on this but saturated fat and cholesterol is definitely linked to heart disease It is linked to diabetes certain forms of cancer Uh, there are also like things like heme iron that increase disease risk So I think you're focusing too much on vitamins and if you actually look at the recent data Uh vegans don't really have high rates of vitamin or mineral deficiencies, but I just don't like Well, wait a second. I just linked in chat a study that came out of switzerland recently Micronutrient status and intake in omnivores vegetarians and vegans in switzerland Vegans didn't really have any higher rates of deficiencies. I think the one thing they did have higher rates of Deficiencies in was zinc But again, like that can just be dealt with just from you know being conscious of the food choices you're making I mean the two problems I have with that are the whole saturated fat and cholesterol thing You're saying contribute to heart disease I feel like you just need to add in the context of what most americans are eating Not just those two things in general and then the second thing of vegans not having nutritional deficiencies The rda for vitamin d and is like 400. What is it? And like the actual nanograms per liter spectrum of vitamin d is from like 20 to 100 and like 20 is like you've never been in the sun before and 100 is like you're about to die from a vitamin d overdose. So Uh, they're like the the problem with modern nutritional methods in determining deficiencies That's not necessarily indicative of what optimal health is and that's glaringly obvious with I know vitamin d3 I know in a lot of cases Like calcium is too high as well. Those are two things that are accepted to not be correct for rda So to go with rda for me is difficult to Well, they didn't just go like they looked at micronutrient intakes in the study and also status so, um Vegans didn't have any higher rates of like clinical deficiencies um You like you like you also said like you have to take things into context like with the heart disease and cholesterol thing Well, again, you linked um A study on the messai in africa and they had extremely high rates of heart disease And that's what you'd consider to be an ideal diet quote-unquote So but we have to keep like you saying heart disease, but we have to keep in mind when we say heart disease we mean these messai had Pretty much except their exceptions to the disease because of the way their arteries adapted and their lifestyle No, they had high prevalence of the disease But mortality from the disease was quite low and as far as the researchers could tell It was because their arteries opened up or something Yeah, I mean that's kind of we need to under like since we don't know these specifics and these things about This disease in the context of those people I don't think we should just Like speculate and say that and and you know just say that heart disease does this without Clarifying those things about these people that consume these foods Okay, well the thing is even under ideal circumstances Uh, it's like what you would consider ideal circumstances things like saturated fat and cholesterol Uh, do cause atherosclerosis clogging of the arteries plaque buildup Um, it's just in that one example you gave like the messai Um, it didn't result in increased mortality from heart disease or Non-significant increase It's like disproportionately I just I just don't want to dwell on this too much because like I those Like all these studies were like just things I came up with on the spot But I mean your ethical like your perspective on ethics keeps going back to nutrition And it's quite clear that vegans can get all the nutrition they need. They can live long healthy lives So I'm just wondering why you think like somebody should just needlessly kill animals when because to me It's not clear because I was on a vegan diet for like a couple weeks and I didn't I don't know if that was long enough of a measurement, but I just it wasn't even comparable to this diet Well, again, that's an anecdotal claim. You only did it for several weeks You might be an outlier in some sort of way. You might have some other underlying problem Like among the general population, it's clear that people can be Totally healthy get all the nutrition they need The american dietetics association released a peer-reviewed report saying vegan diets are healthful adequate for all stages of life pregnancy adulthood Even suitable for athletes like this is well understood and established That vegan diets are nutritionally adequate healthy and they even prevent against chronic disease So I'm still just confused why you wouldn't say unless you have some sort of weird specific health problem like me You should eat a vegan diet Because my whole understanding of this diet and the reason I got into the carnivore diet It has nothing to do with meat or animals or anything It had to do with I started researching like what the healthiest diet was and what the bioavailability of nutrients was and to my understanding Uh and how I have anecdotally felt and a lot of things I've noticed It's imperative that I get these vitamins in my diet Uh in certain amounts to feel optimally healthy. That's just okay. Well, that's just for you though I mean, I I think I would say that as a blanket statement to anyone They need x amount of these vitamins to be an optimal health not just avoid deficiencies Right, okay, and there's no evidence that vegans can't get an ideal amount of nutrition No, that's why I don't really are you are you on this point too much because my whole theory of You know fat soluble vitamins being a well the most important thing in regards to health and development is not something that uh People generally accept or care about as a as like they don't place as much of an importance on it as I do That's why it doesn't really sound uh like my point of view makes sense to you right so uh Assuming vegans can get an adequate amount of nutrition like for ideal health You'd recommend that everyone follow that diet if they could I said that already man I said if I if my function was the exact same as a vegans was Which it I mean in my experience it hasn't been then I would do it, but that's Okay, and you would recommend that sort of thing for vast majority of people if they could stay healthy or be healthier on a vegan diet. If they could yeah under that condition Okay, um, I think uh, that's a good point to end it there. Um Yeah, if you have any closing thoughts or whatever you wanted to share. Yeah, I mean you just you didn't really want to just touch on I don't know how much of importance this was to just how most people do the carnivore diet or think anything specifically in regards to that Well, I mean those people do the carnivore diet pretty terribly like I've mentioned this before but they're not eating uh organ Meets and it's really it very clearly is a fad diet the way it's being like marketed You mean like there's like the rib eye steak every day. That's it. Yeah, basically like the way it's being marketed It is a fad diet for like short term weight loss. It's not something you should follow long term And even if you're doing it properly quote unquote um eating like organs Uh thalamus glands should like that to get things like vitamin c Um, it's still terrible for your health. Yeah, man. I'm doing a I'm doing a video later. It's amazing how almost every organ is incredibly high in vitamin c, but uh Uh, even in that context, um Yeah, I mean it's it's interesting that unfortunately the the people that got popular with the carnivore diet are pretty much doing it in You know the kind of like the worst way possible. Um, do you think if It wasn't like a an eat steak all day diet and that people weren't so ingrained in that like kind of like closed minded Mindset of not wanting and you know, it's a cultural thing too People don't really want to eat those foods and go out to get them and do the things that I do You think I mean we probably be having a much different conversation if that was the case or not, um Maybe it wouldn't have even I mean probably if that was the case if that was the diet It would have never been popular in the first place, right? No, um like again, and that's how I like you can tell it's very clearly a fad diet That's just gonna go out of fashion in a few months. Um, it's just appealing to Our culture sensibilities where you you're not really eating any organ meats. It's just like steak and like oh steak is fun food I'm very against that myself, but would you say that uh keto is a fad diet? Yeah, it like it really is. Um, you know, some people do well on ketogenic diets Like, you know, it can treat epilepsy and shit. Uh, you can do a vegan keto diet by the way Um, it's just that yeah, I'm from I'm from like the only real benefit is for people who suffer from epileptic seizures and people who have Uh, really hard time with caloric control Otherwise, there's really no benefit to the diet. Um, it's not good for reducing heart disease risk not good for diabetes Um, I'd say it's not even good for cancer just because the amount of fat My my problem is with that what you're saying is when I go on You know the vegan form and I look at things It's a lot about animal rights and then occasionally someone smells because they far too much and then when I go on the keto form It just seems to be All people that have had these miraculous weight loss stories people talk about reversing their diabetes People talk about how again, these are anecdotal claims. Um, I don't really care about people posting in a forum But people but literally on in the context of the ketogenic diet With just the sheer amount of anecdotes that come up every single day is you can find that stuff in the vegan community too Like you don't have to look far. Um, it's like these anecdotal claims don't really mean anything but the prevalence of them and Like also you have to consider like They're anecdotal claims like oh, okay. Well. Oh like my diabetes got better. I lost weight all this crap I feel better. Well, what's like show me like actual numbers here Um, like again just saying I don't have to take diabetes medication that well that doesn't actually mean you've Improved your diabetes you you can eliminate symptoms Of diabetes by eating a zero carbohydrate diet your glucose levels won't shoot up And you won't need to take those medications because your glucose is down But has your insulin sensitivity actually improved? not necessarily um, usually when people lose weight it improves, but Again, like a really high fat diet particularly high in saturated fat. It's not going to improve insulin sensitivity Unless it's in the context of weight loss, but in that in that situation weight loss is what improved insulin And caloric restriction too. Um, but what about what do you think? And I think this is a big problem that doesn't really get set enough in the context of vegan diets When people don't really understand what like a lot of people will go vegan and do all these things And they'll start seeing their health deteriorate because they don't understand things that they need to supplement and And various foods they should be eating and it just gets to a point where like a year or two into the diet They're literally like almost wasting away because of their lack of knowledge Of the diet. Do you think there needs to be like more of an importance? And what vegans need to do to be healthy on a vegan diet? Well, I think the majority of people are saying they're wasting away They're just not eating enough and in that circumstance I just say weigh your food track your calories if you're having a hard time eating a high volume of food Just eat more fat Just like peanut butter avocados even like coconuts I mean for some people especially like the vegan diet with a lot of the different foods people buy in the food volume And you know, I mean the same thing with the carnivore diet like for people to just go to the supermarket and buy Steaks that's easy But when they start having to you know buy all these different foods Isn't there like a level of effort into Doing a proper vegan diet that you think might require like a bit more research and time and effort that some people are willing to do Well, here's the thing like um, there's a lot of animal products where you generally get your nutrition from like Milk in canada is probably the biggest source of vitamin d because it's artificially fortified Dairy and salt is also the biggest source of iodine because iodine is added to dairy and table salt So there's these there's these important nutrients that you need that you'd normally get from like dairy or salt or something like that Um, and then when you switch to a vegan diet, if you're not Getting those like those vitamins or minerals from you know, the foods you're switching to Like, um, I don't think there's any iodine and soy milk. Well, that can be a problem You know So you do kind of need to know a little bit about this stuff But uh, generally I think for most people, you know, just have a diet that has a lot of like Uh lentils beans legumes, uh, some some grains Mix of fruits and vegetables and I definitely say supplement b12 vitamin d Um, that's usually good for most people and uh, you know, sometimes you do need to uh, make sure you get enough iodine If you're not adding sodium to your diet um, so you might want to eat sea vegetables or Take an iodine supplement, but It doesn't take too much effort. Um, it's just that you know, some people just don't realize these issues they can run into Yeah, but I think like aren't you concerned about people like celebrities and very popular people like They go vegan. They don't really do it right and then people find out they're not vegan anymore That seems to have been happening. Yeah. Yeah, like that really annoys me. Um The I forget her name now the woman who played cat woman in the last batman movie. Um, she said she was It's not guilt. I don't want to say it. I'm probably wrong in the last like, um Like the last in the trility in that trilogy, um I forget her name, but that was a while ago. All right, though. Oh, and She said she was vegan and then uh, like she wrote some she's she had an interview with someone and it was really stupid She said she was only eating tofu and chickpeas Like literally that's it and then she said I I just didn't feel well. So I had to quit veganism It's like like there's more than tofu and chickpeas so there's a lot of people who I don't know like maybe they just don't think about what they eat and literally Just here on some blog. Oh, you need to eat chickpeas and tofu to get enough protein or else you'll die and they just Do that and then they fail. So yeah, there's those weird odd like outliers, but I I think most people have enough common sense to Just eat a sensible vegan diet like have some beans potatoes rice and have a mix of vegetables and fruits and Maybe take a like a multivitamin and they generally do fine I mean, but what I've noticed is those people that you're mentioning like right now that are successful on those vegan diets They tend to have you know, they put a pretty extensive amount of work into their pantry into the foods they have Um, I guess it might just be something that people aren't really I never really have like what I eat like lentils tofu Uh, just some nori wraps and shit every day and the reason I brought that up is because what do you think about like? I don't know if you've seen their videos like hench herbivora has like a million powders and these jars and stuff and like Like You don't really need to um I think my diet is a lot of people like criticize me for that like when I do what I eat in a day vlogs They're like wow, dude, you eat really fucking boring Um, but yeah, I mean I just cook up plain lentils. Maybe put some hot sauce and some uh nutritional yeast on it eat it that's a meal for me like It's it's very simple and straightforward. Um, I think people kind of over complicate things a bit too much Uh, do you think there's a problem with people like there tends to be like almost like a cookie cutter Kind of a lot of foods that people tend to eat in their diet, whether it's avocado or tahini or Certain green vegetable like big giant green vegetable shakes that have uh, you know certain A lot of these foods when consumed in large amounts frequently like are there anti-nutrient concerns for people that aren't Really soaking or preparing these foods properly? No, generally that's not an issue um What for things like broccoli tofu that it inhibits iodine absorption? Uh, like there's phytates and beans and shit that supposedly inhibit iron absorption Um, your body makes metabolic adaptations to these things where they don't actually affect you Um, and in the case of things like tofu and broccoli, um, you can just Eat more iodine if it inhibits iodine absorption Uh, normally the sort of thing isn't an issue for people, but maybe with like higher intakes of certain things Um, it can be a problem, but again, it's it's easily fixed Uh, no man, that sounds good. I just had those those few questions in regards to the vegans Is there anything else you wanted to touch on? No, I think I just wanted wanted to summarize things like basically there's no indication to me that a vegan diet like Like is harmful to health. It only has benefits. I think it's really the way people should be eating and They're like there's every indication that diets that are high in saturated fat cholesterol animal products massively increase chronic disease risk And we see this in every single population Even like pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers like the messiah you mentioned The rates of disease are very high. Um, it's just that you know The the the rates in which they die from these diseases might be low because of other confounding factors But in modern society with the way we're living, uh, it's very clear that these foods increase risk of death from these diseases Uh, yeah, I mean if there's I guess You know, that was a very short summary for the amount of time we've been talking And there's definitely been some back and forth on each of those points. So I guess Uh, if people want specific details Most most of that stuff was talked about in the first one like two and a half hours or so two hours It's still a pretty long period of time. But the um initially we went back and forth a lot on the what was it the Just the heart disease in general, right the the arterial went back and forth on that for about an hour Then we moved on to the heme iron thing for about an hour pretty much And then we kind of just summarized the, you know, the vitamins were thrown in between there and not really um Not really too much to speculate on we just kind of speculated on bioavailability a little bit and then we spoke about just kind of moved into the ethical side of things and uh just kind of uh How people are not really, you know, they just I mean that's how America is unfortunately with the whole food production system And just how a lot of other places in the world are kind of slowly creeping towards it at the moment Okay, sure. Um So, uh, thanks for having the debate. Uh, definitely went better than some other ones I had recently. Um, So, yeah, uh, thanks for being on i'll uh link your channel in the description of this video Uh, i'm also going to re upload the live stream to my main channel once it's done processing and um If you want to upload, uh, this debate to your channel, you can just download it from me Yeah, like club converter. Yeah, just uh, yeah, okay. Okay. Cool. So, uh, thanks everybody. Hope you enjoyed the debate