 I mean, it's actually stunning when you look around. I mean, China has had major flooding in the Guangzhou area, you know, Hong Kong, Disneyland, God Hamlet. But the, when you look at the images, I mean, cars floating down the street, you know what I'm saying? And then it's the same thing in several places around the world. It's all happened simultaneously. And then you look at the Sunday news shows and it's all garbage, you know? It's all Trump and all that, I mean, just know you would think that they would put the cameras on these events, right? And say, look, there is something happening here to alert the public. But no, we just, we don't want to do that. Yeah. And have the same politicians on and say, hey, don't you think we should be doing something about this? Just a little simple question. Yeah. Well, it's like the political shows are this dance. They have a role-worn path that they kind of stay in. And it's, you know, the elections or horse races. And look at what this politician did. And they're being gamed and played all the time by people who come and be guests on the show and everybody else. And they're afraid or can't imagine breaking out of the mold and doing something different. It's very weird. Well said, elections or horse racing and wars are sporting events. Right. Commentary is like a sporting event. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry, Koss. Well, anyway, I did advance our new book and inserted the pieces that we had discussed. Maybe we'll just dig into it. And here is, hold on, let me just make this a little bit bigger. Mm-hmm. But is this big enough? Yeah. OK. So we had talked about, sorry, this is, you know, so yeah, we had talked about inserting the spiral dynamics conversation. So we had this page here and then we said, so what is spiral dynamics to get a better, to get an understanding of what are we talking about? And I inserted a version of this Don Beck and Christopher Cohen letter here, which I think is the most succinct summary that I could find. Are you copy pasting it or what did you do? I copy pasted it and then edited it, yeah. OK. Which if we're writing a book, we may not have sort of, if it were a complete summary or a rewrite of it, it would probably make sense. This just pasting and doing some editing might actually not pass muster for a book. I don't know fully what the requirements are for original content. Despite my saying let's reuse everything, I mostly mean let's reuse stuff that we write. Yeah, I know I get this. And there are multiple versions on the net. I just thought this, I mean, I can, I mean, there's some copyright issues obviously, but for now I can, I wanted to put this in because it's just so down succinct and also shorten it. But the important part here, each VMIM leads to certain beliefs, social groupings, motivation patterns, organizational dynamics and goals. Now if we try to impose solutions or structures that are too far ahead of the curve to resolve this alienation and rebellion rather than transformation. So it's just a very practical, intuitive way of interacting with people who are in different modes of reality or different understanding of reality. The intuitive better or higher modes of being without respecting the stages of change and development that must happen before large numbers of people in an organization or society can enact such a mode. Back and forth, the use of the term better or higher, sticking with more complex VMIMs. There's hierarchy involved, but it's more factual than evaluative. And then he goes into the eight dominant v-themes listed below. And he adds a number of people or a share of population and political power. So you have beige and purple, which in the US is 0.1% of population is basically homeless people and basic survival instincts. And then purple is 10% of world population, but 1% of power. And then we started really looking at red, which is 20% of world population, but only 5% of power. And then so you come in blue. And so it is laying in examples of how would you identify people within that group? Blue is authoritarian, loyal to truth, which is defined by social grouping. Blue is now strong. 40% of world population, 30% of power. They say Billy Graham, pure American, Confucian China, Confucius China Islamism. And then orange is the dominant today entrepreneurial, personal success orientation. Only 30% of the population, but they're 50% of power. So that would be where you find Obama and Clinton, for example, is in the orange spectrum. And then there is the queen, communitarian, sensitive, humanistic, Jimmy Carter, John Lennon, Greenpeace, Sierra Club, Dr. Vizard Borders. And then yellow, systemic, first BMEM of the second tier. There is a quantum shift in the capacity to take multiple perspectives. Yellow is motivated by learning for its own sake, oriented towards the integration of complex systems. So yellow likes challenges and change and engineering complex systems dealing with ideas. And then there's two across, which is the aspirational part. So anyway, it's a bit much to get to go through there right now in fast forward here. But it's interesting how they have, how this spiral dynamic system is looking at consciousness. It says higher levels emerge like waves at a beach, swelling from insignificance, peaking and dissolving again. Each wave is a bit higher, more complex than the last. But this is not inevitable. Changing life conditions must generate sufficient problems for the predominant workflow of you to be motivated to change. A corporation, for example, might cling to the bedrock of blue while the information economy forces entirely new ways of doing business. So there is this, I think that's the uniqueness about our time is that we are dealing with so many, so many of these groups all there at the same time. Because so many people have more education and more access to information. So you have more groupings that are active at the same time. Okay, so that's a lot of stuff. But anyway, then they go into examples of how we are shifting to a new world view. It's really worthwhile reading, but it's too much to fly through there right now. So I put this in here and it talks about spiral visits. Spiral visitary things in term of open think in terms of open evolving systems rather than closed final states. So none of these states is in any sense final, they're fluid and people change. People go from one state to another depending on life circumstances. For example, you may have a yellow going into war turning into a red, right? Because it's survival and then. So they respond to natural flows and rhythms and show a chaos, but since they are tuned to the health of the old spiral, they do not threaten or jeopardize the old. And I think that's really one of our critical challenges when you talk with people who are in different frames of reference, to not frustrate someone or make people feel so uncomfortable by hearing things they're not familiar with. So spiral visit creates organizational structures and motivational systems that are appropriate for the individuals involved in the work. They might create public change rituals to honor purple, competitive sports, to honor red, bonus and financial perks for orange, celebrations of comedy, loyalty to blue. So this is all really basic generalities, right? But I think they do seem to make sense. They call the process, they call the process of doing so streaming, meaning shifting or dealing with multiple colors which involve secondary intelligence, creating systems that harness and honor the best skills of each remem. Potential problem with many developmental schemes is that people feel like they've been located at a certain stage of the development spectrum. Their egos are activated in a very negative way by this. So they can go into the same thing, but in much gentler ways by saying that a particular remem is activated in someone. The extra wedge between person and remem is key move to letting these ideas sink in. So actually it's important to discuss what is a remem and because V stands for value structure and then the meme of course is the interpretation of my world and there's this biblical mind picture where the tom is like the rudder on a ship. And so the V is like the rudder on a ship where it steers into the direction. So the value system that we embrace really is the defining tool or that defines how we perceive, how we absorb information, categorize it and use it. So how it fits into that value structure and that's actually unifying force is that V across all the colors because if we have the same, and this is where morality and ethics comes in, if we have the same understanding of what this value system is and should be like, then we can coordinate across the entire spectrum. So anyway, I inserted this letter here and I don't know what the copyright issues are and how that would work. Jerry, you have to let me know. But I mean, I can rewrite it and insert all of this in shorter forms still. And then so you said, so I don't know what to slip through this here and fast forward is a challenge. But then we, here's where we were last time. Can we pause for a minute and actually talk about what you just put up. And I've got a few questions. So one, is there a place in the text before this article where you talk about why we're using spiral dynamics as an analytical model? You don't have to show it to me. I just think it's important to create that context. Yeah, no, I think that's the introduction here. So it's not as specific as your question right now, but I mean, it's not like it's a paragraph that says that. But the introduction here is really talking about how we are as a group, living within different types of realities that are based on our cognitive perception of the world around us and the value structures and so on. Okay. This is a generic introduction to spiral dynamics. It doesn't say why this is a useful model for the book you're writing. Is the question Stuart's asking, I think. Yeah. That's exactly, yeah. And because I think it's important for a reader to know that, okay? We're looking at this because different segments of the population see this whole field in different ways, depending upon where they are on the evolutionary scale. Whatever that means. Yeah. So I just think that's important. Number two, as the copyright, okay? My thoughts are, it's often easier to have get forgiveness than permission, okay? And as long as you provide attribution, all right? My thinking is, why would anybody kind of feel badly that you use their work to explain something and you've provided attribution, all right? And I understand there might be a, quote, technical violation of copyright law, but as a very practical matter, you're providing attribution, you're using somebody's work and thesis, even though, quote, it's not in the commons, or you can run down the whole permission structure to use the article and get someone's permission. So a couple of things. This summary appears to have been written by Steve Dynan from SLN in 1999. And at the bottom of the page, it says copyright 1999, National Value Center. So it appears to be a traditionally copy written piece, which, and anytime you copy and paste somebody else's full text into a manuscript you are writing, I get, this may sound strange to you because I'm all about open stuff, I get extremely nervous. I do not like it. It makes me, so the thing I'm thinking is, this is a great summary. I would point to it in the text as a reference and I would give a link to the full document and let people go read it if they want to. I would definitely not include it in the text here. And I would create, and even using chat GPT to say, hey, help me some, using this document as inspiration, create new words that explain how some of these things work, that would, I would be fine with that because we're giving chat GPT co-credit as an author, as a co-author of this book, which is great. But I'm very leery of including this in full text, even if you've made some changes to it. This is somebody else's complete idea. You could also try to find Steve Dynan and say, hey, would it be okay if I included this in a Neo book and explained the process? And if Steve says thumbs up and gives approval, your goal, then you're good. But I would not just drop this in. This is, there are all sorts of plagiarism cases out there where reputable and interesting writers got taken to the woodshed because they were taking notes and they were just copy-pasting notes into their manuscript and they forgot to completely change some section and then their host. And so I wanna kind of honor that aspect of book writing in some sense. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's the permission piece that I was talking about, class, which is the highest level of use, I think. Getting permission from the original author. And as a reference to, hey, read up on Spiral Dynamics by going here, works just fine in the text. And then you can include a very short summary and that lets you focus on why is Spiral Dynamics useful here, which is a piece that actually needs to be in the manuscript, as Stuart said. And I was thinking that it probably needs to be in the introduction of this Neo book and then it probably needs to be in somewhat more detail as you flow into Spiral Dynamics, after the setup, all the earlier stuff that we were talking about. Yeah. We're starting right here with the Spiral Dynamics. What runs just before the Spiral Wizard? Yeah, regenerative practices, all that. So skills required for innovations. Brokerage, awesome. So you're gonna have a section on innovation brokerage. Love that. So right after the section on innovation brokerage, which wraps that section, I would have an introduction for, hey, in the context of this book, why does Spiral Dynamics make sense as a solution framework? Yeah. That's just missing right now. Yeah, so I can put this in by ever using Spiral Dynamics. Yes, I would not put it in the middle of the text that I'm not happy about using here as all. No, no, I can completely take that out. I would just put the why are we using Spiral Dynamics just before the title of the summary of Spiral Dynamics so that you know that everything you write here is new and clear and different. Yeah, I would just move it above. That's that's all. And absent permission, that summary is just a link. Yeah. Yeah, so now like a section that explains this would be terrific because then you're gluing the whole first half of the book to the second half of the book is my perception because I think that you're using Spiral Dynamics as the operational model for getting out there and changing discourse with different constituencies and all that, terrific. And that's gonna work really well. Yeah, and Jerry said something that's important, I think for punctuation. At the very beginning of the article, the introduction slash summary of some kind where you're luring people in to say that we use Spiral, we're using Spiral Dynamics as an analytical model because whatever the because is. So the introduction to the whole, this whole book needs to show the flow between the opening sections and Spiral Dynamics. But then right here, the section that you're writing that you're sort of starting right now is then that idea in more detail. So let me see, I need to put this away so I can get. Yeah, is there an intro right now? So there is the story of soil. And this is chat GPT 3.5. And so it goes really into the dawn of Homo sapiens and industrial agriculture, the age of regeneration. So food revolved, why we need to revolve. And bio regions, not as whole concept of bio regions, culture and traditions, the impact of industrial agriculture then comes the regenerative movement, the past will regenerative future, the role of large scale multinational companies, the role of innovations procreation and supporting a community-based regenerative transition, the skills required for innovations procreate and then comes the spiral visit. So now we're going into interacting with what do we need to do within our human organization to make these changes actually happen. Then we can say, so here, why are we using spiral dynamics as an analytical model and what is it? Good, so I think, go ahead, Stuart. No, I was gonna say, Klaus, could you answer that question right now? Just say it out loud, why are you using spiral dynamics? So they have made attempts to create segmentations strategies that help us understand how to communicate more effectively with people without making them defensive, without running into beliefs and barriers. And there's a whole lot of that out there, but I find that in the political spectrum and in the social system spectrum spiral dynamics is the most effective way of creating these distinctions. And using these colors, but I mean, you could call it one, two, three, whatever, but just for illustration purposes using these colors shows a segmentation that just rings good on a common sense level. You just intuitively accept that people live in these types of worlds and realities and you can assign segments of the population to specific colors. And that in turn truly helps to understand that each one of these coupings is really speaking a unique language. And if you want to reach them, then you have to adapt their vocabulary and their symbolism and the examples they're using for sense-making. Okay, so just to summarize, okay? In some sense, you're writing an advocacy piece as to why it's so important that we pay attention to regenerative agriculture at this moment in time. And what that involves is convincing broader levels of the population how important it is. And when people are being advocates in that way, they need to be aware of who their audience is, who they're talking to to be effective. And I assume that in some ways that's based upon, your own experience knocking your head up against the walls with people who weren't hearing what you had to say because you weren't realizing who exactly they were and what their level of awareness was or something like that. Okay. And it's like, it's one thing to know and understand that it's a completely different thing to practice it because you're stumbling across your own emotional spectrum. I think it's an underlying assumption. One, I think one of the underlying assumptions behind why spiral dynamics is a good idea here is that one message or one story won't bring everybody on board for the size or scale of change we need. And so we need to adapt the story and the logics for different groups. And hey, here's a really interesting model that says you need to talk differently to people who think this way, this way, this way, this way, and then here we go. And then you're off and running and then you ask chat to generate specifics for each of those. And that's the end of your book. And then you do a little conclusion that says whatever. Like that makes a lot of sense to me. We are missing an introduction to the book. There's no introduction here and we need to generate something that encapsulates the whole book in five paragraphs. The whole book, meaning here's why we're gonna go. And because you start with the beginning of the dawn of homo-safiens, that's actually the beginning of the book, of the writing of the book. And that's not a summary of what the book is going to be about. So an introduction upfront needs to say as briskly and quickly and convincingly and alluringly as possible, here's the problem. And here's how we're gonna go about addressing it and resolving it. Yeah, and soil is the cradle of life is the start of your book. Like I think the introduction is more something about we are busy destroying our planet or however you want to sort of say that things are not that great and they're fixed but they're fixable. And here, this book contains some of the pieces of how to fix it, including some of the details of how to convince people to use the tools that are already available to fix this. Something like that. Stuart, you've written lots of books. I'm a book virgin still. So. Yeah, I mean, to me, one of the most important and critical things is providing good context in an introduction before you get into the weeds so that people's brain is organized and they have a big bucket in which to put all of these wonderful details that you're aware of. So in this context, that's essential for two things. One, the facts about regenerative farming and two, the whole use of spiral dynamics as an analytical model for being more effective advocate. Boss, is that making sense? Yeah. I'm just trying to translate that into sort of a headline. Yeah. Part of that in some ways comes from, believe it or not, aside from the writing experience. Do you remember Teach, you remember Evelyn Wood reading dynamics? Mm-hmm. Okay. It was a methodology class it was called reading dynamics or speed reading, but it really was a way to process large amounts of information in a very methodical way. And one of the critical principles was as you're reading to give your brain the context in which you're dumping facts in, you know, individual pieces of information. Okay? Mm-hmm. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I can put an introduction ahead of this thing here. Okay. The other thing about being an effective advocate, and I think we talked about this in the OGM call, when you want to persuade so a good story or poem, something that's emotional that grabs people aside from the logic of everything that you say, which I assume is in the detail of all the material that it's logic, but some kind of a story to grab people's hearts because people are moved to action by emotion. So I did, hold on. So I did end something like here where I asked chat GPT, given current trend lines, how humanity is evolving and impacting nature, what are the impacts in both the biosphere and the social systems? Where are these impacts trending? What is the five to 10 year outlook if humanity does not change course? Mm-hmm. And then it goes, the current trajectory of human impact on the environment is creating a ripple effect of consequences affecting both the biosphere and social systems. If not mitigated within the next five to 10 years, these impacts could lead to irreversible damage and create an array of challenges for human civilization. So in the biosphere, we deal with soil degradation, water pollution and scarcity by the biosphere. Yeah, okay. So that's good. But I think that also needs that you need to validate the use of chat GPT as a good source of information in this area. Well, I think that this summary I think the summary is very reasonable and it could be like in an intro. It seems okay. You might also just say, hey, you may be tired by now of hearing how much the earth is suffering and how much human life on the planet is endangered. I share your exhaustion or your pain or whatever. This book is about trying to fix that. And that's it. And not to enumerate or summarize all the different ways that shit's breaking, which that was a very nice, the piece you just showed us is a nice summary. Like the biosphere is breaking these ways, social systems breaking these ways. Human life is endangered. I get that. But in some sense, I'd love for you to say this book is full of positive things we could do to fix those problems and get right straight into that. And in order for you to understand in order for you, the reader to sort of understand, we need to frame this in a couple of ways. First, we need to frame historically what a human's done. Second, we need to think about frameworks and I'm making this up. Why bioregions matter? Why regeneration matters? And then a couple of implementation issues, which then culminate with, how do you explain this body of stuff to everybody? And we're gonna use spiral dynamics as a framework for varying the same explanation, but for different kinds of audiences who are coming at this in very different spirits and values and ways. Something like that. But it's maybe more like an abstract. Yes, yes. Yes, and the abstract needs to be enticing because the introduction is what people turn to to decide do I wanna read this thing or not. Yeah. And so being a little bit humorous, a little bit punchy, a little bit whatever is good in the intro. And by the way, we're keeping a transcript of this call. So if you want to scroll back and take a piece of what I just said and feed it to chatGPT and elaborate that, that would work. That would work as well. So I'm jumping around. Let me just get back to where we left off last time. So we did, engaging the general public and what different colors are doing with this thing. And then we talked about let's go and ask a very specific question and we talked about just using red, blue and orange to do that. But when I started to get into it, you realized that I really had to do each color. How come? Because they are so uniquely different and specific. But if part of the theory says that very few people live in Beige right now, why do you need to do Beige? Because you still have a few million homeless people living in the streets of America. And so what are you gonna do with them? And so I was doing red and then when I was doing red, I realized that that's just too specific to just focus on those three. So why not just do the whole range? So partly I think to do, I think there's an 80-20 rule that's possible here. I'm arguing for narrowing down and not doing all the colors, not because I know that that's gonna be the best way just to make that argument so that we can think it through. And so if red, blue, orange deal, I would basically address 70% of American citizens, that's good enough for me and you don't need to get to every segment because the more colors you layer in, the more distracting, the more time it's gonna take, the more differences, the more it distributes your effort. What's the word? Yeah, dilutes, thank you. The more it dilutes your effort in your message. So if you could only pick three colors to focus on, I think you've got the right ones in attention. And I think there's a price to pay for every other color you add back into the mix, even though you say up front, hey, here are all the colors of the model. Here's how the colors are different. Go read this essay. If you wanna understand the whole model, we're going to pick a subset of them because that's where the real energy could, that's where the real change energy could lie. I would really like for you to read this. So first, before we come to that conclusion, that's because I found valid reasons to be inclusive here. Gotcha. I mean, for one, I mean, food, no, it's universal. You need to feed the entire population and there were some really startling observations because the individual colors are like so different. I think that will jump out. Cool. So I said, write an 800 words essay about what the world looks like to an individual living in the V-MEM zone of color. So during the information this group has access to and knows the process, what are they thinking? Who are their thought leaders operating at a higher level of consciousness and what are the motivations of these thought leaders for engaging with V-MEM color? What is the most recent state of cognitive dissonance caused by the divergence of talking about climate change versus observing it in real life? And so, and then also I'm going through multiple iterations of asking the question and I asked this down or change this and so on. So when you look here for an individual living in beige V-MEM, the world is a simple immediate place. Life revolves around the basics. Food, water, shelter, safety. The present moment is all that matters. Bage consciousness is driven by instinct and focused on survival. Complexity is not just ignored, it's not even perceived. Climate change, geopolitics, social justice issues are generally beyond the realm of immediate concern unless that directly affect the survival. Information processing is rudimentary and visceral. The senses and immediate physical needs dominate their perception. If it's not edible, if it can't be used for shelter or if it doesn't pose an immediate threat, it's probably irrelevant. Such a few could be seen in certain segments of the homeless population, in communities devastated by natural disasters or in extreme poverty stricken areas where survival trumps all other concerns. As for thought leaders, the beige V-MEM does not look up to thought leaders in the conventional sense. Leadership in these environments is usually based on direct utility. Can this person find food, protect the group or build shelter? The motivations for these operating at higher levels of consciousness when engaging with space are often altruistic or derived from a sense of shared humanity. People operating in higher V-MEMs like green or yellow might seek to provide immediate aid, not because they expect beige individuals to move up in their thinking but to ensure their basic needs are met. So these higher consciousness individuals might find engaging with beige challenging, particularly if their motivations are grounded in more complex ethical or systemic frameworks. How do you explain the nuances of climate change to someone whose immediate concern is where the next meal is coming from? So that's sort of regarding cognitive dissonance and climate change. The concept may not even apply to beige. Cognitive dissonance requires a certain level of mental complexity and the ability to hold conflicting ideas. So what I'm hearing from this description which is a useful and interesting description is that there's little sense right now in trying to address beige with these abstract issues. Very little sense. That's correct, but at the same time in order to find any solutions, you have individuals here that are just helpless basically and you need to stabilize the environment so you need to really think through how can that work? Well, they would be major important clients of a set of solutions in the system. But they're not part, I think, of your attempt to address the issue in ways that will engage a bunch of people to change their behaviors and to join a movement. So I think that beige is not an audience you want to address. Beige is a client that everybody else wants to serve. And may not be aware of having to serve. You know, everybody's aware of climate refugees and people and refugee camps and homelessness. Like there's lots and lots, there's so many of those people around and there's so many efforts to try to patch those problems that I think that there's a general broad awareness. I don't know. So I think that most of the description you just read basically says these people are not thinking that like anybody who's a thought leader is not gonna be engaging with them. Anybody who's got any abstractions is not, that's not gonna work. I got a lot of like, hey, these people need like immediate succor and help. And if you can get that to them, great. But that's not the thesis of the thesis of the book, I think is how do we change the system so that the system can better generate the things that beige people need. But the beige people aren't, I don't think in your immediate first degree audience of interest. Yeah, no, I mean, I do see that different because when you live in San Francisco and you stumble over homeless people everywhere you go, you are desperately wanting to find a solution for this. And so what does that look like? Exactly, and that spirals into a whole bunch of issues including addiction and a bunch of other things. I mean, a lot of these people are PhDs who got unemployed or had a divorce or had a medical episode that made them bankrupt. So they ended up on the street and then they ended up addicted and they can't find their way out. But I don't think this book is going to help address those problems. No, I don't think it's meant to. No, because you can't, you can't touch everything. You can't solve every problem, yeah. In one book or paper. Exactly, so it feels like that's kind of out of scope, Klaus, and I'm trying to figure out how to trim things that aren't like laser focused so that this book doesn't get too big. It's not too big yet, it's not that big yet. But how do you make this like a laser focused book that just goes from this and plus this, plus this equals solution set. And then here's how we communicate solution set to people who are very different from each other. And that logically makes a whole bunch of sense to me. Yeah, so if I look at myself as a designer, right, as a systems designer, you couldn't design a food system without incorporating these colors into it. It just doesn't work. You have to make provisions that find, you just have to be aware of it. I mean, this is just meant to be raising the awareness that you may have to build kippets, intentional communities. You may have to find some solutions to provide food and shelter to these groups. And guess what they are? This is how they work and this is how you have to interact with them. So if you, so I'm writing the book from a yellow perspective. Now, so if you are in yellow and you want to stabilize the spiral to change its footprint, its relationship with the natural world, you can't omit beige because it's a crucial factor in there. So it has to be upfront, right? And immediate in your design decisions to build something coherent. So anyway, if we go to red here, living in the zone of red, the world seems like a stark battleground for power and survival. That people operating in this zone are not primarily concerned with global issues like climate change, but they are instead focused on immediate needs and gratifications. They see the world through a lens that places them at the center where emotions run high and impulses dictate action. Relationships are transactional. So given the immediate nature of their concerns, food, security, respect, red individuals are less likely to tune into the mainstream media for complex geopolitical or scientific analysis. Their information often comes from localized sources, community leaders, strong parental figures, influential peers who operate on similar wavelengths, but may possess a slightly higher level of consciousness. The more enlightened among these leaders, perhaps operating in the blue or even orange memes, may employ red language and perspectives to enact change or maintain order. Why would such thought leaders engage with red individuals, the motivations can vary? Are there sense of duty or moral obligation using religion or law to instill a semblance of orders? Thought leaders in the orange meme may see potential for mobilizing red individuals for mutual gain. Concept of cognitive dissonance, particularly regarding climate change doesn't often infiltrate the red world few deeply because the abstract and future oriented nature of climate issues doesn't resonate with the immediate concerns. However, when observable phenomena like extreme weather events directly impact the environment and safety, a form of cognitive dissonance can occur. So for example, water is a much better metaphor for communicating with red about environmental issues than there would be this abstract notion of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. And then conversations in blue, people at this stage have moved beyond the impulsiveness and power struggles that dominated the red meme. Blue mind places faced in the establishment and often looks to authority figures for guidance and validation. So there, when it comes to issues of climate change, cognitive dissonance for those in the blue meme can be significant. On one hand, they're receiving information from trusted sources like the Pope speaking on the need for environmental stewardship that prompts them to consider the issue seriously. On the other hand, the effects of climate change might directly contradict their longstanding beliefs in a just world governed by a higher power or reliable institution. For now, so such dissonance can be catalyst for deeper questioning or compartmentalization. So it's just again, a completely different language here. In summary, to an individual operating in the blue meme, the world is a structured predictable space defined by traditions and moral codes. They look to have these. Red, blue and orange are the three that you said originally were the most relevant, right? So we're in red and we're heading, we're in blue. It's blue now, yeah. Red heading to blue, yeah. And all of these need to be summarized plus, they need to be summarized and succinct, I think in the text. How do you mean, less fewer words than these? No, no, no, no, no, no. Each of the different colors, okay? And their attributes. Yeah, there should be an introduction to the spiral dynamics model, which is the picture up above. Yeah. The spiral wizard. So where the spiral wizard lives, that's an intro to the model. So, for example, you'll have that. Yeah. It's like, like clue, authoritarian, loyal to truce, which is defined by social grouping, The perfect world, patriotic, leads people to obey authority, feel guilty when not conforming to group norms. So here you have that and then you have examples. Organizational structures, pyramidal, Boy and Girl Scouts, Billy Graham, Puritan American, Confucian China, Islamic fundamentalism, 40% of the world. So there is that part. So down here is then the translation of how does this play now and the particular question that I was asking is what are they experiencing in terms of cognitive dissonance? What kind of information sources do they have access to who are their thought leaders and what is the motivation of their thought leaders? And the piece, I don't know if you've done this yet, but the piece that I thought you could get to in this book is, and you could ask ChatGPT to generate these, write a message directed to red, blue, orange, whoever in their language. Here's what a such a message could look like. And then there's actually text that's addressed to that kind of person. Right. Yeah. So that's what I started thinking about this when I got into conversation and hold on when I got into visions of the future. And so I don't want to jump over the place here. So that's where I was thinking, but let me come to that in just a second. I think orange is interesting because orange is the most power. Orange is holding like 40, 50% of all power. That's where hedge funds are, bankers, corporate leaders. So for individuals resonating within the orange meme, the world is a landscape of opportunities waiting to be explored and exploited. This paradigm processes strategic achievement oriented outlook where the goals are personal success, autonomy, and material prosperity. The information sources are everywhere. So thought leaders that attract orange individuals often operate from green, yellow, or even to across V memes because these are, this is the group that gets stuff done. You know, these are the systems thinkers and so on. Motivation for higher V memes leaders to engage with orange is often about systemic transformation. So basically, if we want to find people to really move stuff, then it would be with an orange. Recognizing the recognizing orange is considerable influence in layoffs like business, politics, and innovation. These leaders aim to steer this creative, but sometimes self-centered energy toward more holistic, sustainable outcomes. This isn't necessarily altruistic guiding orange towards more complex modes of thought. It's often seen as a necessary step for tackling global challenges like poverty, social inequality, and climate change. Speaking of climate change, this is a domain where orange experiences significant cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, the irrefutable scientific data and emerging market trends are around sustainability and green technology are hard to ignore. On the other hand, the immediate financial gains from exploiting natural resources, for example, present a compelling incentive that crashes with long-term sustainable thinking. This dissonance has become especially poignant in recent times. So in orange we may have viewed the world as a competitive arena full of opportunities for personal success and advancement. So then I get into green and yellow. Yellow is of course individuals consume a wide range of information. So for those in the yellow V-MEM cognitive dissonance and around climate change arises not so much from the gap between knowledge and reality. They're usually keenly aware of the ecological situation. Their dissonance lies more in the gap between what they know is possible, a more harmonious, sustainable way of living, and the inertia of existing societal systems, particularly those stuck in the orange and blue V-MEMs. Klaus, who's the audience for the book? So I would say yellow. Because I think there's a great deal of yellow people living in a yellow frame of reference who don't have the technical information and details of this. But these are also the groups that have the capacity to develop communication structures and engagement ideas to engage with the spiral. But then you have to know the differences between when you're talking with an orange, what motivates an orange versus a blue or a red. But I'm also beige. You just have to be conscious of different frames of reference. This is particularly true when you're dealing with food. Because it's the base of the pyramid of needs. Yeah. I mean, what's interesting to me and it keeps popping up in my mind is my own personal experience. And I think this is a great story. With all my analytical ability in identifying 30 plus areas of shift that's wrong in the world, what's the foundational thing that I missed? Food. Because it is so fucking transparent. You go to the supermarket and you buy food. Even somebody who is, quote, so ostensibly aware of phenomenon that's going on, I completely missed it. And it's just so fucking fundamental to me. Not because I need to be included in the book, but I think that's a useful story in terms of engaging people because it's just so transparent. And it's so foundational. Yeah. Yeah. And I think what I sort of see between the lines here is that you can get, you can't move people by more than what they're arguing, but they're more like half aligned. I mean, you can't move an orange into yellow, but you can move an orange to think in yellow. So they have this, like there is orange is in big letters and then yellow would be in small letters. So there is an abstraction that is possible for folks in different environments to reach forward. And so yellow has just the basic idea of living in harmony with people who are in different places than you are. I mean, that's a yellow way of thinking. No. And so what does it take to achieve that? And so yellow and is it turquoise now or is it teal? Because I always thought it was teal at the top. Turquoise. Yeah. All right. Yeah. So here's turquoise. The world is perceived as a holistic interconnected web where systems within systems coexist, giving rise to a bigger picture that transcends individual components. The focus is not merely on the complexity of systems, but on the harmonious integration of systems. The world is a plant of spiritual essence and empirical reality. Everything is connected and every action ripples through the universe. Turquoise thinkers consume a vast array of information from quantum physics to mystical texts to comprehend the universe's true essence. Thought leaders who resonate with those that turquoise V-mem often have to pin down as their work transcends conventional categories. So he's mentioned like Ken Wilber comes to mind. Spiritual leaders who talk about consciousness and interconnectedness and empirically grounded terms. Their motivation for engaging with red or any other V-mem for that matter is often altruistic and guided by a sense of responsibility to elevate the collective consciousness. In red they see the raw energy and the will to power, which if guided could be transformed into a force for positive change. So the cognitive dissonance for someone in turquoise is concerning climate change is both profound and paradoxically subtle. It's profound because they can perceive the deep-gooded interconnectedness that others might miss. They don't just see deforestation as the loss of trees but as a spiritual and existential wound that impacts the collective soul of the planet. The dissonance is also subtle because they possess an innate ability to hold multiple perspectives simultaneously without judgment. This means while they're acutely aware of the lack of action they also understand the systemic and spiritual inertia that keeps things from changing quickly. Cool and so each of these I like the analysis from ChatGPT of each of these colors applied to this the problem at hand and the piece that I would love to see as a cap for each of the colors that you want to address and again I'm going to say I don't know that you need to address all the colors although maybe that's just the form of the book and that'd be fine is what would a message look like that would work for that audience? So the transition from colors to yellow you know it's over where I'll be hold on let me get back to this thing here sorry I don't mean to make you dizzy but here is the shift to second tier thinking and I think the conclusion we should attempt to create perspectives from within the second tier right because the idea here now is how do you develop a communication strategy that is sufficiently differentiated to address unique colors and you have to look at this out of the yellow tier even to across here. And I don't know that we know what a second tier means here it's not the colors that second tier is some different it's a different segmentation of the spiral levels. Yeah let me let me go to the let me go to this here orange green yellow this is the first V mem of the second tier in which there is a quantum shift in the capacity to take multiple perspectives in life yellow is motivated by learning for its own sake and is oriented towards integration of complex systems changes a welcome part of the process yellow likes the challenge yellow likes engineering complex systems dealing with ideas it's also ecologically oriented yellow thinkers often work on the periphery of organizations quietly fine-tuning situations and procedures much to the bathroom end of the first tier V mems Hawkins brief history of time chaos theory eco-industrial parks riot magazine that sort of thing so and then to across of course it is jumping into a spiritual aspect of of systems thinking I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm feeling challenged in the sense that I'm I'm concerned that people are going to get lost in the spiral dynamics model as opposed to the real message of the book about regenerative agriculture I'm just concerned and just it's just something to think about as a as an author as a you know as a writer and I have to also admit that I have a a negative bias towards all systems that explain human behavior and categorize them it's just my own because I think we're just too complex and and so when I see someone who hears the way you know humans are I get a little you know it it's bothersome to me all right it doesn't it doesn't go in so readily that you know that's a personal predilection of mine I share some of your discomfort Stuart and I think the goal here from like a high level perspective is that this book will appeal to people who are who understand and are into spiral dynamics and would like to see it applied to world problems and that that that's kind of a big that is a big piece of the audience for this book because we're going to apply spiral dynamics as a as a solution framework to these issues so that kind of dictates where we are the reason I keep bringing up I would love to see what chapiti GPT would actually write in copy for each of those groups is that is that you just voiced why that's important to me Stuart which is I think that will tie back all the stuff about the innovation brokers and taking care of the land and regenerative principles and all of that I think those get folded right back into the the the copy that goes to each of the different colors that you want to address and it makes a nice bow at the end of the document to say okay we made a big we made a big detour to explain spiral dynamics unpack spiral dynamics around these issues for you know each of the colors but then here's how you apply it here's you know here's it's almost like here's next step start a starter start communication strategies from these blocks of content so we did start this year where hold on food as a cultural element and then so we did go into sorry mm-hmm this is ringing your bell yes you know energy efficiency and so on so food as a cultural element the relationship between food and culture you know so how does that how do you know society civilizations adjust there's this top down bottom up you know mixed uh thing there and then it's communicating insights and the course of actions throughout the spiral so we had this here the interplay of morality and selfishness so common in the history of our species is particularly interesting when applied to the current food crisis you know given these parameters our evolutionary selfish traits as species and that also trail within us so there is the community engagement again and then make culturally then engaging the general public and that's when we went into the color right and so and so this is just like a really short you know uh uh snapshot of of how would you create I mean high high level of communication strategy here like in blue faced based initiatives promoting stewardship of the earth now in red you would go celebrity endorsement of sustainable footprints appealing to prestige and individuality in orange corporate wellness programs incentivizing healthy sustainable food choices so we did have you know we touched on that I think the book is getting like big enough to where where you can get lost you must be writing it um and then so it's it's you know then then we saw talking in color so out of that now in the last meeting came uh cherry you were saying okay why don't we just write like a 800 word summary for each color that goes into into more of a descriptive detail there so that's when we got this here right and so this this is an analytic summary looking at the audience the thing I'm trying to figure out which is hinted at in the thing you just showed us in the last little segments which is start our religious movement to show the interplay you know blah blah blah um is unpacking that into some text so that so that you could then say and here's a message you would see here's who you want to you want to send this to bible schools like like the play that people wanted to do like you want here here is a couple audiences that would really work and here is the content of the message for them as an example um because then you're actually addressing those groups you're not talking about them yeah so we could spin that out um um as a next step yes so and and so I just hardly named this because I was running out of steam uh to to no to take this forward but so I was just saying so what are the visions of the future and so here is what I placed into chat gpt we have only deep memories of living with nature sharing the cycles of the seasons and living with her boundaries she willingly gives what has emerged is a dystopian landscape in places most people don't often see only here occasionally about the death of pollinators watersheds that are too polluted for recreational use strange weather patterns droughts floods storms a danger is pouring an anger a storm and then I'm asking chat gpt so use the opinion expressed above to write an essay of the dangers that lie ahead for humanity threatening the survival of our civilization and so this is what chat gpt would say um lyrical um I'm I'm going to have to drop off a call pretty soon I've got um something that needs to get done right now at some 15 minutes before our actual end and I'm happy to leave you guys talking if you want or we could wrap the call also um but it feels like class there's a bunch of things you know for next week yeah so I'm I stopped with trend lines um and so it's simply saying the trend lines are not good yeah um basically saying these impacts could lead to irreversible damage and create an array of challenges for human civilization and then so so we could go back into um communications a communications plan by color something of that sort yeah yeah yeah so um yeah and I have another question um and I agree with Jerry I think we've raised a lot of a lot of questions here to think about um is this editorial process working for you Klaus and I don't know if if if we had a a system of editorial process uh or you guys are just kind of jumping in in other words are you leaving these sessions with clarity about uh huh I need to do x y and z or um is it is it working um well it's working in a sense that we have been expanding um with based on your very specific questions okay um you know I mean we got to the introduction of spiral dynamics and so I copied this over because it's the best text that I could see and I'm not sure that chat gbt would even match this because there's just so much specificity and in summarizing these uh this content but we can rewrite it no but uh and then and then we meant I think these 800 word essays about specific colors are really powerful um because it really it really defines you know the distinction and uh and then you can test it you know when you I mean I was at the party a couple days ago and uh you just talk with different people and you can just see their colors jump at you you know in in the way that the the words they use and the references they make and so on so days I think there is great validity in in in this and this is I've always been no Maya breaks and all this stuff I've always been like deeply deeply suspicious and and disengage from any of that stuff but this is the first time where where uh it sort of makes sense because it's it's uh it just creates like the environment not the person itself but the environment that this person perceives and so yeah so I mean I I do find I do find this helpful I think um this is now there's now so much in place um I have to reread it myself to know so let me make can I make a suggestion can you drop the screen for a second I'll share my screen and show you something um cool thanks so I'm in the document over here and I started I turned on the outline what you do is the little the little bars up here just click on that and then and then I'm applying uh different headings to the different sections and subsections which then lets you see it part of the problem is that uh when it pastes in text it's pasting it in as if it were um so here's more text oh good this is normal text that's as it should be so here's uh dawn of homo sapiens industrial agriculture you can make this uh heading two and it might be a heading three I don't know but as you as you as you do the headings and subheadings to the right level you will see the book show up here as an outline and then you can navigate by just clicking on the different sections and it takes you to that section it's much faster and this gives you a pretty sort of chapter headings etc then you can see if there's duplications whatever it's much easier than once the document gets larger you're scrolling up and down and it takes a long time and you start to forget what's where so that'll probably help you know what I haven't landed on this yet so I have so totally just just and I'm making suggestions here so just approve my suggestions and then uh go crazy yourself so food revolt might be uh the second first heading I don't know you'll figure it out but see if you do first heading it comes out to the left now since the dawn of time I go down here this appears to be a title it should not be a title this should be normal text so anywhere you see a block of text that says title that's bad and now you see that it went away from over here so under food revolt why do we need to revolt uh just look at what the what the style is up here and any block of text should just be normal text now any heading or subhead should be at a certain level of indent and you can change that uh but for example here why are we using spiral dynamics uh this has shown up as a heading three which it probably doesn't need to do but I'm not going to mess with that one let's go uh oh interesting okay so it's it's busy interpreting all each of these things as headings Beck and Cowan this all of this text is heading three when it should just be normal text there we go so now that that's helping except I bet you each paragraph is heading but it needs to be a normal text so this whole section needs to be normalized instead of whatever but again this is the text I'm hoping you will take out of the document and make a link uh you know to it uh elsewhere so does that make sense yeah cool that will that will structure the document a lot more than than it is now you know I was just I haven't worked with with these software in such a long time I was really unaware of this function and I've been I've been aware that I need to have some kind of organization in the dark so I think it was helpful that'll work great um I should show me um shall I leave this open or shall we fold up for now hold up I've got another call to go to all right thank you thank you all right bye bye