 All right, good afternoon everyone. Welcome to our talk. My name is Cassandra Pierre and on the call with me is Nathan Chung. We are going to be talking about neurodiversity and cybersecurity and how you can find your competitive advantage today. So thank you for joining. What exactly is neurodiversity? Nathan, I'll start with a definition. It's the idea that it's normal and acceptable for people to have brains that function differently from one another. Normally when you hear the term neurodiversity mentioned, some of the things that come to mind would be autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, Tourette's. I would say neurodiversity is something that I think a lot of people are hearing a lot more about. I was saying the last two to three years and a lot of people are sharing about their neurodiversity and also about their advocacy for this cause. Do you see that Nathan as well? Absolutely. I'm quite happy about that because no diversity always carries a negative stigma. So to see people coming out openly that they have conditions just autism, ADHD or Tourette's, it's amazing, absolutely amazing. Absolutely. Agreed. So the crux of our talk today is to talk about cybersecurity and then also to talk about how it can be an amazing career for people who are neurodiverse. So currently in the United States, there are many jobs that are open. In May 2021, there were almost 500,000 open jobs in cybersecurity across all sub-genres of the industry. In talking to a lot of people in cyber, outside of cyber, people in the black community, there has been conversations about how we are best preparing future generations to graduate to go to college or not a vocational school and then to pivot into a career. I hope we can unpack some of that today, but our primary focus is to talk about how we can support neurodiverse individuals and neurodiverse youth to investigate and look at cyber as a great career path. Some of the reasons why I think cyber is an amazing career path, even for someone who may be looking at a second career is the financial freedom that can be achieved. Most of these jobs are high paying. The stability, obviously the creation of generational wealth, not only for your immediate family, but for your grandkids and for your surrounding family. The career opportunities that come along with that and also it's a career where you are constantly learning new technology. So intellectual stimulation, if that's something that interests you, cybersecurity would be a great fit. So again, can it be an ideal career path for people of color? I believe so. I think, you know, with organizations like Vic and, you know, other technology and cybersecurity organizations, they're laying the foundation and the framework for a lot of people to upskill and to pivot. I think a lot of the support is there. If someone is interested in pivoting to cybersecurity, it's just a matter of hooking up with the right network of people who support and encourage you. It's not an easy pivot, but it is possible. If you set your mind to it and you're willing to do the work. cybersecurity, I believe it's a great career path for people of color. So again, benefits of cybersecurity. I would say one of the benefits that I've seen, I'm not yet working in the field on Nathan, but I would say also is that cybersecurity has a really good community and lots of opportunities for people to come together to share knowledge and also to share community. I think that's how we met, right? Absolutely. We met through WISIS and we are both part of many, many other organizations. Do we kind of help out? Very happy with that. Yeah, I've met some really great people and, you know, always willing to pitch in to help to explain, you know, concept if I didn't understand to help me with interviews, so on and so forth. It's definitely a supportive community and organizations like BIC makes it very, very easy to kind of get in and to see or to find out what your niche is. So here are the numbers of neurodiversity and cybersecurity. Nathan, I know this is something that we've been talking about for a very long time, right? And neurodiversity as, you know, something that people talk about right now openly, but also are concerned about what is happening to our youth, specifically those who may be in special education who have an IEP, so on and so forth. So we do know that autism in Black children has increased exponentially. You know, back when I worked in education, I can say that the support for students and for their parents really was not there, nor was the open-mindedness I would say that we see with neurodiversity as a whole. It was very stigmatized. Those students were frequently in suspended from school or in timeout. It was, they were often penalized instead of being provided with support. And I think now we see a lot of parents becoming more educated around the difficulties that their children have, and they're being a better advocate for their children in school. Moving along with that is, you know, the amount of Black adults that are now getting diagnosed, right, with ADHD later on in their lives and in their professional careers. It's something that they've struggled with for a very long time, and only because this conversation is coming up, they're going and seeking a professional evaluation and a professional opinion. So I think that's a great thing because people can get the support that they need. And then, you know, 3% of InfoSep jobs are made up by African Americans. I think that's a dismal number, considering the wide amount of open roles there are. The job wrecks that we see companies are advertising, they have openings, why we as a people aren't able to connect to those openings and to land the job. That's a conversation for another day, but it's definitely something that I think in my position, you know, not only in tech development but also with other organization affiliates is something that I want to look into more. To see how we can open more doors for people to pivot. So what about students who are studying STEM, Nathan, we see here only 34.3% are studying STEM, why do you think that is? It's very hard because like you said that there are a lot of barriers and it for a lot of folks, especially for women, it starts as early as middle school and high school. If they are turned away from STEM at that early age, they never recover, they just totally lose interest. But as a study shield, there is a strong, I say, a strong indicator that a lot of people who are autistic want to go into STEM. So as much as possible, we need to encourage them and to keep them going because we here in the US, there's a lot of brain drain with the recession and the current global economic crisis is going on. A lot of people probably don't even want to go to STEM, like they're in survival mode, so we got to do more to encourage people to learn STEM in school and into college. Yeah, definitely agree. And as we can see only 9% of STEM graduates were black and like you said, there are many reasons for that. It could be lack of support at university level, lack of support and making the transition after graduation to a career, you know, needing to maybe seek a career that has more stability or better benefits, right, to support a family, or to be able to connect to a salary that is, you know, isn't something that's going to scale up as they gain experience but something that right out of the gate they'll be able to to make a living wage so we have a lot of work to do. And I think when it comes to not only neurodiverse African Americans, period, but also those who are interested in cyber and want to make a change. So, this is something that comes up a lot, you know, the pros of being a neurodivergent individual and the competitive advantages that come along with it I'll talk about the first couple Nathan and then I'll let you get the bottom. I think we need to pay attention to detail, being adept at research, having a high love for learning new things and defining and for finding out new things, highly skilled with wrote and mechanical tasks, being great at data entry being great at looking at you know, research papers and whatnot. I think people who are neurodivers come with a specific set of skills that make them highly, highly skilled and a great fit, not only for cyber roles but for many roles. It's just a matter of finding the right job the right support system. We'll get into that a little bit later. And you want to talk about the last 40 things. And it's found for the people who are neurodivergent, they also have superior long term memory recall. They can, for example, listen to like, like something they can memorize specific dates and they can just spot on they can tell you exact date exact numbers like, like, wow. And also to finish for logic math and pattern recognition, tremendously useful for its response where you need to be able to identify potential hackers or nation state attackers as quickly as possible picture and other box thinkers. Sometimes to be really good security, you need to go to think of the box and think like a hacker and especially for certain tasks like malware analysis, or threat hunting where you need to be able to think of the box like what will the, what will the pen testers or hackers try to do. What would they do inside the system if they're getting. And lastly, most importantly is innovation and create a problem solvers, super reliable in, especially in incident response, because in a crisis, a lot of people who are neurodivergent are very big, they go into overdrive and they can, they can solve their incidents a lot faster than other folks. Yeah, that's that hyper focus right that focus moment when you can essentially you fixate on a task until you can remedy it, and you get you get the desired outcome or solution that you want. Awesome. I guess this is a point in the conversation where, you know, for those of you who are listening or watching. After all that we've said, do you think that cyber could be the right career for you. And is this your first time hearing about cyber and not and, you know, the possibility of you making a pivot have you thought about it before. What do you think would make. What about you do you think would make you an ideal candidate. What skill set do you currently have that could either be honed or developed what are the soft skills that you have that are your competitive advantage. You know with someone right who traditionally I would say in a job or in a role or in another environment who doesn't traditionally fit in find their space or find their place in cyber. And then what skills do you have that set you apart and make you different from everyone else and how can you highlight those to maximize your strengths we're going to get into that. A little bit about myself. Like I said, I've been. I guess cyber adjacent, that's the best way to put it for the last two and a half years or so. I had the privilege of working initially with big and being a part of their community, meeting some really great people there, leveraging their resources on their Discord channel, met lots of friendly people and this is one of the reasons why I thought it was really important for us to bring this information to def con. So again, cyber and technology enthusiast I love anything tech love to tinker with different things on top of that. I have about, I would say 15 years, 10 years or so experience working in mental health both in special education with children up to age 18, and then also adults in an acute psychiatric setting. I love for mental health and psychology to my work and you know, day to day I try to spread information about mental health awareness and physical wellness stress reduction and kind of thing. One, one interesting thing about me also is my intersectionalities right, obviously a black female from the Caribbean and I received a very late diagnosis. And three years ago, I've been, you know, in and out of therapy for very long time it's something that I actively sought out because I think it's important for you to really have a space a safe space where you can talk about things that are bothering you at my age now this is something that was missed all of these years it was just an eccentricity right that people thought that I had or that I was dealing with and I was misdiagnosed for a very, very, very, very long time. Part partially I think because of the lack of research that's out there for women, specifically black women. And also because of, you know, a lot of mental health practitioners are not of color so it's very difficult to find someone who gets you and can help you, you know, kind of figure out what's going on with you. So as a result of that I've made it my mission right now to really reach out and to one share my story about what I go through as someone who is neurodivergent dealing with, you know, ADHD and spectrum issues, and, you know, really advocating for people who are younger than me, who are graduating who are transitioning transitioning into college, trying to figure out what their career is, providing them with a support so they kind of don't have to go through a lot of the hardships that I did. And this work really encourages me. And also finally I'm also the president and one of the founders of the we says newer diversity affiliate we just started a couple months ago we have a lot of great things coming. But this is just one of the things that I think Nathan and I've been plotting about for the last couple of months to really solidify and to start to create a place where people like us can be safe can find information, and also explore career and cybersecurity. Yep, I can't hear you Nathan. You muted. Sorry. So similar Cassandra so I had so I have autism ADHD and I'm also like diagnosed I just got diagnosed in 2021. I've been working in cybersecurity and it for more than 20 plus years. I'm also host the Nordic podcast about visor to and former leader of the we says no, no diversity affiliate and I'm happy other all the worry with Sandra and others are doing. Next slide. And here are some amazing women in cybersecurity who are no really no diversion to Hopkins he's a CT on a young professor and multi word winner. Stephanie I she's a security engineer and Samantha, no money she's a cybersecurity intern. Next slide. And here's something which a lot of people don't realize. We are living through a lot of history of amazing black black people. Amazing people of color throughout our history. One example, Tom Wiggins, he's a blind, he was a blind musician, said to be the highest paid pianist of the 19th century. Wayne once said that his skills to pass both diet. Rihanna Claire Olympian she set multiple world records and track field. Lauren Rochelle Fernandez, she's the founder of mascot working to educate and destigmatize neurodiversity and mental health. And here to talk about autism. Yes, 60,000 followers. Lamar Hardwick, he's an awesome advocate, passer and author. Talia Grant, she's the first autistic actress on the mainstream British TV show. Morgan Harper Nichols, she's a writer, artist, storyteller and social media influencer and my favorite of on this on this slide is Will Smith great looking guy after and. He's openly has ADHD. Awesome. I love this slide. Love it. So, we're going to make a quick pivot to talking about neurodiversity in the workplace and some of the tips tricks and strategies that employers can implement to ensure that they are providing for a very smooth and inclusive recruiting process for diverse employees that hire new hires and accommodations that they can create for them. Nathan, you want to start with this. Sure. So some recruit with best practices. It starts with the job descriptions. It's important and critical to have inclusive language. I've just seen way too many job descriptions over the years that say is something like gotta be team player. And just words like that discourage people like, like me from, you know, applying number to provide interview questions at best. I had that in my last employer and that made a huge difference. It took away my anxiety and made the interview much easier. Number three, number four, or even allowing a combination during interviews, very critical. Before ask candidates for tools they need to thrive. Because everyone is different. Everyone has different needs. So you just got to ask them what, what do they need. And also most importantly, provide remote or flexible interview options because the old school in person interview that's, that's pretty much gone on the door and so I do so much better with the remote interviews so much better. Agreed. Definitely agree to that. I will also let you get into this one. Sure. And I love the fact that you made a great distinction between ideals and less ideal roles for for neurodiverse. So for a lot of people who are neurodiversion. Ideally you want a more technical role, but I do stress again, everyone's different, but for me and a lot of people like me, we thrive in very technical fields where there's less interaction like example, threat hunter, forensic analyst, response malware engineer, meditation tester and consultant. Now, the advantage of a lot of these jobs is you're essentially what you get in a zone and your hyper focus, you can do an amazing job you can think specialists, specialists in these fields, especially can do an amazing thing just it's harder if you get distracted by all this have a meeting let's talk to people then because it's a lot harder. So that's why the inverse is less ideal jobs would be like security project manager or privacy officer, security order or compliance risk manager. Those jobs. I've done a lot many of those jobs before and it can be very stressful, especially in many many things that go on forever and ever. It deals me with anxiety and equals to mental burnout a lot quicker. Definitely. And like you said the back to back meetings, you know, constant interaction with people that pull you out of your zone of concentration. And, and just overall cognitive burnout and you know this is something that goes on day by day by day, it can be very detrimental to, you know, an employee who wants to create a career that will grow right and where they can be promoted so it's very important for you to think about. You know when you're choosing what role or what area of cyber is a good fit for you also choose also also think about what your day to day in a your role may look like. If you don't really know this is when you kind of need to reach out to your network, get on discord channels, you know find people who are currently in that role and ask them about what their, you know, job is like what they do for a day. You know, they stay, you know how they trained and see if those are the things that that fit well for you. I think talking to real people about what they do is the best way to find out if a role is for you or not. So there are a lot of accommodations that employers can provide either during the hiring process, or once a new hire has onboarded supports that they can provide to their employee to ensure that they can do their job to the best of their ability. I hope that one day we will move from calling these accommodations and they're just readily available things that people have that they don't have to ask for. So interview questions made it available in advance. I also had an opportunity to interview and was provided with questions in advance and it made. It really removed a lot of the anxiety that people feel when it comes to being able to perform on the spot noise reducing headphones I have a pair on my, on my desk, these are important, especially if you work may work in an open floor plan office or even if you're a home you're good to cut the noise out. You know that may distract you being able to work from home or having maybe one or two days in the office and working remotely flexible schedule. Some of us work better early in the morning, and need to take a rest or you know during the day, and then log back on at the end of the day to kind of finish things up. That gives you opportunity to really keep an eye on your energy levels and to ensure that you're not pushing yourself to the max and leading to, you know, patterns of burnout. That's something that you don't want to have captions or transcriptions. Definitely very helpful. We have meetings back to back. It detracts from the cognitive overload when you can just look at the text on a screen as opposed to trying to differentiate voices from background noise from clicks from people to win from people laughing the dog parking all of those things. These are the reasons why those things are important. And last but not least ergonomic furniture. We also know we talk a lot about our mental health, taking care of our physical bodies also very important. You know, with a cyber role, most of them you will be sitting at a desk for most of the day so get a stand up desk, you know, ask for ergonomic chair that is supporting on your feet, foot rest, all of these things. When you put the totality of all of these things together. It provides you can provide you with the support that you need to be fully functional at work. So just a couple things making that I'll let you jump in because I think you have a lot of great things to add here on when it comes to retention, you know, I think a lot of times we don't really think about, you know, the employees that don't really say much right and then when they leave we want to know why they left. They were such a great worker why did they leave. A lot of times employers don't really try to implement a solution until people actually leave the job. So these are some of the things that employers can do starting today to ensure that they're creating a safe space for their employees. Listen, people are going to put themselves out there to share insights about things that can be improved. Listen to what they have to say. They're not mesh or go well or maybe you do not want to hear what they have to say but understand people are putting themselves on the line to share their feelings. Give them their accommodations if they request, you know the fact that they would like a flexible schedule, and it is a reasonable accommodation it does not disrupt, you know, work, provide that to them you'll find that they become even more productive, and even, you know, better at doing their you know the job that they signed up for flexible career paths, a lot of us are multi potential it meaning that we are. We have multiple interests in many different areas right so we may get into a role you say it's a lot of with people who have ADHD they have a lot of interest and a lot of intellectual strength in many areas. Provide them with the opportunity to start new projects or you know to work on a different engagement or to go on a tour duty these are the things that keep people engaged and interested in their work. You want to finish these up Nathan. And to add to what you said about speech about career path. A lot of businesses they still have it. I would call it an old school mentality where your I'm actually push into the manager slash executive ranks, whereas a lot of people like me specifically. I have zero desire to be a manager because of the other social, the social issues and the mental overload brings. And really you want to have a flexible career path so exemplary. If you don't want to be a manager, you can do a note should be able to have choice to go and alternate path is architect and not interact with as many people. Barry. Next, you want to reduce the barriers productivity. You want to make the employees feel very comfortable to do their job. Next, Incorporate DI to corporate culture because at many organizations they try to add it, like, add something like put something temporary on top of the corporate culture. I, but ideally, these D and I initiatives around neurodiversity should be applied organization wise let everyone feels welcome. Definitely. Next, address the signal issues immediately because despite all the gains of new diversity, it is still like a return. It gets a bad rap people were people immediately if as if they think if people see you as having like autism or ADHD, you get labeled and sometimes more times than not, the label or like your problem you're quirky, you're strange and it's, it's almost always negative. So when this happens, this negative stigma, especially, you need to be able to like seriously, stomp it out and make people feel welcome. So the burden of this, especially on matters like when you see stuff happen, speak up, take action. And most of all, be an ally to your employee, because a lot of people are going to be quiet, they're going to be quiet is one do their work. Don't wait for them to come to you. As a manager, especially reach out to your employees, ask them straight out. How are you doing. What can I provide to you that can help you to thrive. And that one question crosses many boundaries, not just no diverse employees but men, women, people of color, various races, age. So one question, taste care of all that just ask employees, what do you need. Yeah, that's awesome. And as it is really needed building a rapport with your employees is so important, especially now with with so much going on. So here are some tips for employees. I'm looking at maybe making a pivot into cyber. Here's a couple things that you should keep in mind as you go down this path. So again, having some self awareness right thinking about what exactly you want and how you will get there what is the path for you to get to your end goal. What's the ideal role that you want. Do you have the experience, the skills, the education or even the ability to get the job. If you don't currently find that job description on indeed or glass store or whatever. Take a look at what is required. What are the skills needed for you to, you know, to be able to do the job, and then work towards that. You work best virtually in person hybrid. Personally, I work best at home. I'm more productive at home I can control my environment do it works for you. Do you want to share about the, you know, about being your divergent do you want to keep that to yourself. How much would you share with who do you share it with your manager HR, whoever this is something that you need to know. If you need specific accommodations, write those down think about them do some research. So you know what to ask for. What do you need and how will it be able to support you to do your job better. Who's on your team. I think it's very important for everyone to have a mentor, we can provide them with the technical information about the job that they're in a coach who will help you to work out your career, long term and to provide you with feedback on your performance, and how you're doing and how you're doing as a person as a professional, and then also counsel your therapist your psychiatrist, they can help you with some of the more issues of anxiety depression. Things like that that may really derail your professional progress if you don't focus on it and deal with it, find someone to talk to that can provide you with professional feedback. Can you supplement your skills is there a specific certification that you want to take. If so, get into a study group because a bunch of study groups and cert prep and, you know, programs that can help you get on the path to finding the job that you want the role that you want. So definitely continue to connect with them for guidance. Find your fit. There are some jobs that will not be a good fit for you. Okay, if a role is, you know, back to back meetings heavy client contact, that may not be the place for you sure isn't the place for me. So figure out what you want and what you don't want. Have you reached out to people that work for the company that you may be interviewing for. Find them on LinkedIn, reach out to someone, ask them about the culture at that company, look up the person who is on the hiring panel, find out information about them. Do your old sin on your job on your new role because all of this information is going to be important for you to make a decision if this is the right place for you contingency plan if you're going through a difficult time. What can you do to ensure that you can successfully do your job while getting the support that you need be it mental health, physical health, whatever know who you have that in your life that can support you. And ensure that you keep them, that you're open with them about how you're doing and where you are. I find for interviews something that I do is research interview questions for the specific role and then I do a lot of practice I usually wrote my sisters into being my my interview panel. The interview me asked me questions that kind of thing. It has helped over time to reduce a lot of my anxiety when it comes to interviewing highlight your strengths. It's not bragging if you know that you are a great problem solver. If you are a strong writer if you are a great pen tester speak up about what you are good at it doesn't make you a bragging person it makes you someone who's confident and knows what you are good at. Sometimes you may get a no sometimes you may, you know, really do awesome in an interview and then you get that you get that email that they did not choose you. Yes, it's extremely disappointing when that happens but do know that every step that you make towards your new role is building resilience, you are gaining experience, you're gaining an understanding of the industry, and use that for the next time. And lastly, find your support system, how can the people around you support you. Let them know what you're going through let them know what your goal is, and actively ask them to support you as you make your way towards it. I'll go through these quickly, just six things that you can do to work towards where you want to go professionally, and I think these apply to everyone, neurodivergent or not, you must have a plan, got to know where you're going, and how you're going to get there. You don't know where you're going it's very difficult to come up with a plan that's going to work. Take a little take a piece of paper or use a spreadsheet, write down all the trainings you've been through conferences like this one courses that you've taken on LinkedIn or wherever your keep them on a piece of paper, or keep them somewhere visible so you can see how you are making progress towards your goal. It may seem like getting to where you want to go is taking forever, but you've accomplished a lot give yourself credit for that. The second thing is to prepare have a plan, and then prepare to put it in practice. If you don't have your support system, the resources you need an accountability buddy someone who's going to ask you how you know your cert prep went and a system to succeed it's going to be very difficult for you to see your progress into push forward. If you are making small wins, and you are hitting your your your small goals, it's going to boost your confidence and propel you further towards where you want to end up. Definitely protect yourself I think this kind of goes along with the overall mental health conversation Nathan right. Create a plan to maintain work life balance that's sustainable. I think we all have a tendency to take on a lot more on our plate that we are capable of. Be aware if that's something that you tend to do be aware of that and ensure that you have blockers in place to know when to put up a boundary and to say no that your plate is full. Work out a couple days a week stretch in the morning do some yoga go for walks. Go to your therapy appointments make sure there's a professional in your life that can provide you with the support that you need. The community also has tons of support groups that you can attend now virtually which which is awesome. Work is not everything how try to have a social life. You don't have to be out in the club every weekend but you know, go to go to a park you know have lunch with your friends. Do the things that fill you back up and and you know really reduce the level of stress that you are experiencing cybersecurity is a very very stressful industry and a lot of people right now are experiencing burnout. If this is the path that you want to take do get get in the habit of creating these positive patterns now find your friends you can other things pick up hobbies. Make sure that you are protecting yourself. What is your competitive advantage or your problem solver you good at finding patterns or you good at your strong writer all of these things are skills that you should be speaking up in your interviews and when you make connections via networking. What is your brand, you want to be the go to person on your team currently for that thing that you do well so when you go into that interview, you can name the skill, you can name the action, you can name how you implemented this skill and what the positive outcomes was leverage your talents in those situations and commit to growing them. Plan for your vulnerabilities again. If you need rest if you're feeling burnout for it for you know you're overworked or you're not feeling physically asked for a day off take a mental health day doesn't make you a slacker it makes you a smart person. If your environment at work is stressing you out open floor plans you don't have a quiet place to work. Find a work environment or ask for one that's going to help you do your job better. If you need support at work to get your work done and and to feel like you are bringing your best self to work every day. Speak to your manager if you're not. You know you really don't want to speak to that person reach out to HR, see what is available for you also leverage your affinity network so disability groups. We have African American groups, Latina groups, whatever groups there are located at your job, reach out to them and ask around find out what's available that you could tap into that you could pull into to support you. And then lastly, persevere. I think a lot of us have gone through extreme hardship. Especially if you were later diagnosed right because you may have thought that there was something wrong with you. There wasn't anything wrong, it's just that you do things differently. Remember that right you process and think differently and that's it. Okay, this looks very different for lots of different people. Find out what that means for you find out what your thing is, and know how to apply yourself in a situation in order to be productive, and then keep it moving. Don't allow naysayers to get in your head or in your way I think sometimes we get caught up on labels, and we focus too much on those hyper focus Nathan, and you know it puts us in a very bad headspace. You know, write your goals down keep it in a place where you can see them, keep studying, you know connect with people who are positive, reach out to folks who are either in your network outside your network in that job that you want to get. Ask them about themselves ask them to mentor you display your knowledge start a blog right on LinkedIn become a content creator, talk about building a virtual lab there are plenty of people who wants to pivot into cyber that can use the knowledge that you already have. Join them work on projects give back find someone to mentor. It's about that time of year where people either going back to the school or they just or they just recently graduated, find someone who all has similar goals to you and mentor them or volunteer. I found that the best way for me to integrate a new concept or to comprehend exactly what it is I need to learn is to teach someone else I do my studying and then I share that information. If you can effectively teach someone a concept that means it's stuck in your head. So definitely do that keep moving. And if you get a no keep pushing forward because your yes is around the corner, it's coming. There are a few resources that we've compiled for you all that are very helpful the first one obviously being the newer set podcast that may help. Hopefully, we're going to see lots, many, many more episodes of the podcast coming up and then the second and the third are two amazing sites blocks and cybersecurity. Thank you so much for this opportunity to be able to share with you. The big is doing an amazing thing in the community and is providing a well needed place safe space for people to learn to network to grow and then to find and connect to great career so it's been a pleasure to be here and to share a little bit with you on this topic. Thank you big for having us. And if you need to reach out to us you definitely can find Nathan and I on LinkedIn. We will be able to share our information with big and linked in your sec podcast we says big. We're out there definitely reach out. Thank you so much. Thank you. So