 Welcome, everybody. It is Tuesday afternoon. This is the General Housing and Military Affairs Committee and today we are taking up testimony on a very important resolution to us. It is JRH 2 which reads as a joint resolution sincerely apologizing and expressing sorrow and regret to all individual Vermonters and their families and descendants who were harmed as a result of state sanctioned eugenics policies and practices. We have taken testimony on this from the attorney who who helped write this with us. We have heard from some historians and we are entering into a phase where we are hearing from witnesses of families or descendants who were who were affected by the eugenics policies. For the benefit of our witnesses the idea behind a resolution is similar to last year. This language is pretty much what we finished with last year with the addition of some key words towards the end of it. It is not complete and so any words of improvement you may offer to make sure that we use the language as correctly as we can is important to us to hear. And so but with that and with just really our fullest hearts we welcome you to this committee. It's Zoom and it's not three-dimensional, but I think also because of that we get to hear from people around the state a little bit more easily than we may have otherwise and so I hope you will help us with this and share your thoughts on this bill on this resolution. Process for resolution is that we will work on this till we're ready to vote it out and then it would go to the floor. If it passes on the floor then it would go to the Senate and the Senate would do their work on this on this resolution as we have done and if they see fit to pass it then there would be that's as far as it would need to go it wouldn't need to go to the governor because this is a resolution from the General Assembly from the House and Senate for our actions related to the eugenics survey. So with that I'd like to welcome and turn over the microphone at first to Carol McGranahan who serves currently as the chair of the Vermont Commission on Native American Affairs and with us today we also have Chief Don Stevens from the Nelhegan Band of the Kusatabinaki Nation, Rich Holshu who is the executive director of the Itawe Project, Lucy Neal, a member of the Nelhegan Tribe Education Coordinator, who is the Education Coordinator for the Nelhegan Tribe from Holland, Vermont and Doug Bent, who is a member of the Coasec Tribe and is a commissioner on the Vermont Commission of Native American Affairs. So welcome all. Carol, thank you for joining us. Well, thank you for inviting me. One of my roles is as chair of the Vermont Commission on Native American Affairs, but today I am here as an Apanaki member of the community. I appreciate you inviting all of us for our testimony because it is a very important resolution and I think will be very impactful on starting the healing process for everyone. So given that, I'd like to read my statement. I am Apanaki and my family was named in the Eugenics Survey. I want to outline how this has impacted the six generations since and what it means for all the generations to come. Our culture was a land based one with a rich oral history. When settlers arrived, our lives were changed forever. The many threads that wove the tapestries of our identities were caught, destroyed by disease, war, loss of our land, forced assimilation, legislation and documentation culminating in the Eugenics Survey. These are all different forms of genocide, but all are just as effective in erasing who we were as a unique people. Last year I heard one legislature, one legislator voice concerns that genocide is an ugly word and felt it did not describe what the Eugenics Survey did. I will share the definition of genocide as stated in International Law Article 2 of the United Nations Convention held in 1946. Genocide is any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group as such. Number one, killing members of the group. Number two, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group. Number three, deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part. Number four, imposing measures intended to prevent births with. Number five, forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Documentation exists which shows the Eugenics Survey embraced forced institutionalization, sterilization and forcibly taking children to be placed in homes which were not aponecchi. These actions were all part of the Eugenics Survey, but also existed long before and after. This genocide happened and was embraced by the legislature at the time. But how does one measure the loss of the connection to our ancestors? History, language, culture, spiritual beliefs are identity as aponecchi. My own family roots were hidden and lost as names were anglicized and changed. It became unsafe to acknowledge or teach aponecchi culture or language. Through institutionalization and sterilization driven by the Eugenics Survey, some would never know the joy of having children effectively killing all future generations. If my family had not hidden their roots, I might not be here today. And in turn, my children ran children and their children would not exist. As we grapple with rediscovering our aponecchi history and who we were and are, the threads must be picked up one by one and rewoven into the tapestry. But like any repair, it will always be there as a stark reminder of the damage caused by others who claimed our homeland as their. I believe an apology has to include the acceptance of responsibility for the Eugenics Survey and to ensure actions will be taken to begin the process of reconciliation and healing for all. Thank you. Thank you, Carol. Next up, Chief Don Stevens, Chief, I want to thank you for coming in and you've been here in our committee many, many times before over the last 10 or 12 years and and I have appreciated your work with us to be able to understand better what what we need to do in order to make amends. And that started back with recognition and here we are now. So I pass the microphone to you, Don, and and we'll follow with Rich. Thank you. Thank you, Tom and also the committee for hearing me or having me testify. This is very important to not only myself personally, but also the Eugen Avanaki and other other Avanaki people. And I it's one of the reasons I worked with UVM in 2019 to to get their apology for their role that they played and also testified last year in front of this this legislative body on on this so this has affected many people. I have over 500 pages of just on my family alone. What happened to us in the eugenics so I'm not going to dwell on that because it's pretty well documented on how the eugenics survey really affected my family and how it continues to affect our people. As you know, my grandmother from testimony last year changed her name multiple times to avoid the survey because she was listed as a defective cripple. How did this really affect us, you know, in my family, you know, my grandmother had to keep moving around every time she was found out. She had to change her name and move around and it really kept us in poverty. And that's well documented in the eugenics survey where people were part of the poor farm. I could never get out of that or they, you know, were put in the Vermont Institute. The industrial schools or the Brandon school for boys or many other places where people were placed. So, so because of this poverty, my mother was never able to even graduate high school. And matter of fact, my my father never did either. I'm the first person in our family to actually even go to college. It also caused my grandmother to discard her identity and her heritage. She was always ashamed of being labeled as defective. I mean, when people look at you as something less than human or defective or an idiot or imbecile or any of the other things listed in the 31 sterilization act. It's hard to hold your head high and be proud of who you are. And one of the reasons we went for recognition was because because she couldn't be proud of who she was, I wanted to make sure that my my mother was able to dance in the circle. Openly as a as an indigenous Abenaki woman and be proud of that effect. And we we achieved that all together in 2011 and she danced for the first time. You know, as a proud Abenaki woman after that happened. So that has a lot of sentimental value and I'm glad Tom and you and others were part of that. But this also prevented the transfer of cultural knowledge to our people sort of what Carol was speaking to is that when your family is ashamed of who they are or they're they don't want to be a part of that. This also prevented the transfer of cultural knowledge to our people sort of what Carol was speaking to is that when your family is ashamed of who they are or they're they don't want to be known to society as as who they are they they don't want to talk about their culture their identity or their heritage and that cultural knowledge does not get passed down to the next generation and and it really hinders the teachings of our people and our and our grandchildren and we've had to piece those things together again. So what is the apology the apology is a moral and decent thing to do. When you hurt someone that that is what we're taught to morally and and and ethically apologize for the harm that we've done. And then we do everything in our power to to correct the harm before you can heal you must acknowledge the wrong doing. This is why the apology and working to correct the harm is an indication of decency pure decency towards other people. I think it's a step forward in the right direction. It is a healing and something that is needed. You know we both share this place called inducting our Vermont and and like any communal household if there's anger distrust or suppression. It is an unhealthy unhealthy relationship and I think that the state of Vermont and they have an active will need to continue to coexist as equal partners in this land. If we're to have real lasting partnerships and real social change. But I want you to know that I'm not here to concentrate on the past. We don't ever want to forget the past but I'm I'm here to help ask to build a new a new future. One of reconciliation. I'm asking really for two things that this legislative body can truly live out the creed and the sincerity of any intent of an apology. I would ask that the legislative body never tried to cause the extinction of the Abenaki people ever again, not physically or legally. The eugenics was a physical legal entity to try to cause people from breeding and which which causes extinction. We are not like other races of people you have the legislative body has the power to give or to strip our cultural identity under the law which makes us always vulnerable. We had to fight for recognition in 2011 and achieve that recognition and that was given to us our identity was given to us in a legal form by this legislative body. We really need to be reassured that you will never ever take that from us again, whether it be legally eliminating us as a people or physically trying to do that. Our grandchildren and future generations deserve that solemn bow from this legislative body. So I asked the second point I'd asked is that you do everything within your power to help uplift our people and provide the needed resources. So we may be equal partners in Vermont society. We're often overlooked discarded or left behind. We are denied the resources and equity to represent our people that others enjoy we we do this mostly on voluntarily basis is and you know there are nobody representing Abenaki people in any full time way to be that resource and and advocate for our people. So I'm asking that we continue to find ways to uplift our people and I'll be here for any questions. Thank you. Thank you Don. I think the best way to work with questions will be as long as folks can stay we'll have testimony first and then we can round Robin the questions. Rich whole shoe. Welcome. Welcome. Will you any time. Why need them back. And they will be zealots and I want us to go to so quacky. And we go down. My name is rich and I live in the south part of the state what you know as Brattleboro. It's good to see you all today. Thank you for this invitation in this opening. I appreciate the attention of the committee to this and I appreciate the testimony of other members of the Abenaki community. I speak to you virtually from one toss to gock today. You know it is Brattleboro. It's not called one toss to gock anymore. I would like to affirm that it is still one toss to gock. This continues. There are a lot of different realities and we're all here together. And we have to deal with that now. By the same token the words that we speak or do not speak are important. And so we come to this matter of an apology for eugenics survey something that needs to be spoken. And then we can start to hear each other's stories. I'm not going to approach this from personal viewpoint. The words of Carol, Don, Lucy and Doug to come our ample witness to that and the other testimony that you have taken previously. I think we're all starting to grapple with the gravity and scope of the situation with which we are faced. And it is only one instance in a much, much larger systemic pattern of behavior in this state, particularly with relation to its, you know, as if they were owned by indigenous people, the people belong to the land. But we have to start somewhere and this is a good place. I think this is one of the first, you know, difficult, real difficult conversations that we're beginning to have. And there will be more, I hope. And I believe there will be because I see the will to do that now is manifesting itself and people are coming forward and giving each other the openings and they're listening, not just talking now. So we're at an important place, a decisive place. I want to emphasize again that it's a beginning. I want to talk to you in terms of framing this, where we're at, how we got here and where we go from now, from this position, because we are all here now. And the question before us is what do we do? What do we do? So first we have to listen to each other. We have to hear these stories that you're hearing from your witnesses. This is truth being spoken. There is no one story. There is no one history. There are many. And we need to share those because we are all the richer for it as human beings. We need to treat each other like human beings. The people of this place, the all known Bach, as they call themselves, are the human beings. And that's where it starts, not in terms of splitting each other up. You're this, you're that. You're a human being. And then you need to expand that out, looking at everything around us, all of our relations. These are people too. We're really talking about the human beings in this room right now. We need to talk about all the rest, but we're going to get to that conversation down the road. How do we come back into relationship with each other and with the land? People have pointed out that, speaking of big picture, people have pointed out that within, within the various documents and surveys and reports and studies that the word of Benikey is not actually in there. Now this, this is a matter of semantics. I think it's evidently, it's, it's evident very much so who, who were the targets of these programs. You can call it whatever you want. Again, this is the power of words. Call it Brattleboro, call it one Dostogok, call it a pirate, call it a river rat, call it a French Indian, call it what you will. We know what we're talking about, but we need to share these stories and we need to be honest about what we're talking about because words matter. So one of the processes of genocide, the very, very subtle systemic process that, that it perpetuates is this process of erasure. You say something doesn't exist or somebody doesn't exist and you don't have to deal with it anymore. And you are free and clear to do whatever you want going ahead. This is just false. It's so dishonest. It is so inhumane. This is called coding. If you want to get into it, you can, you can make up a word and call it something else, but behind it, it stands for something. And, and again, you don't have to say a Benikey to know what we're talking about. That's pretty clear. And so we just need to get that out there. You folks as the committee are picking this up and carrying it forward. You're going to be the messenger. I'm grateful for that. I hope that you do your job well. We will all be the beneficiaries of that. And I just want to point out, I know we're not here to talk about a task force on truth and reconciliation. That is a separate matter and a separate bill, which I believe will be in front of you. But, but we're getting there and this is opening the door toward that we need to do that. The process of reconciliation cannot go forward until we go through a process process of conciliation. I'm really clear on this in my own heart that we can't talk about fixing things until we agree what has happened. And this is a graphic signpost as to what has happened in a very real and lasting manner in terms of the people and their families carrying the past forward. We are our ancestors. We are diminished to the fact that we do not acknowledge or allow those ancestors to be and our ability to effect the future, create the future out of the present and the past of which it is constituted is deeply affected by these kind of actions. I think I'll stop there because that's the main point I want to make is that this is a single action in a series of actions in a system of treatment. And Vermont is not alone in this, you know, many, many states across the country had a eugenics survey and program in place and indigenous people have been at the heart of that colonization. Colonization happened all over this continent, indeed all over this world. And that process and and the fruits of that process are not leading us in a good direction. I think most of us can acknowledge that things, you know, huge things like climate change are a direct result of conducting ourselves poorly. And we need to start over. We need to start at home. Charity begins at home right here in Vermont, right here in one Tostagoc, wherever you happen to be with your next door neighbor with your own heart. And I want to say thank you for taking this up. I look forward to it going forward. And I thank everyone for their work on this. And I thank my fellow members of the community for putting themselves out there. Great. Thank you, Rich. And please stand by I think we'll have questions. Of course, Lucy Neil. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you very much. And thank you for having me. I don't know how much more I can say Carol, Dawn and Rich have covered so much. I my heart breaks for my aunt and my grandmother. But this hopefully will will help those that are here, our hearts heal. I, I, as you know, I am the Indian education coordinator for the Nalhegan tribe and I attend a lot of schools and do presentations and the middle schools and the high schools. This is what they want to know about. They want to know about the program. They, they want to know how it affected us, how it affected our culture. And this is a probably the most difficult thing for me to present on because I don't have closure for it. One of the questions that is asked frequently is, well, has the state apologized. And I said they're working on it. I said, you know, and I tried to explain that there are a lot of windows that they have to open and close and get everything perfectly. I want, I want closure because it's, it's more than time. I want to be able to regain the culture that I teach to the youth. I want people to know that we're here and I want us to be able to raise our heads high. Because we, even today, you know, we still get a lot of grief. And it's, it's, it's, it's difficult with the equity programs that we are instituting. All across the state, I find are beneficial and the conversation is continuing. So there are attributes. But I think once this is complete, then I can say it's done. And this is, this is when it happened. This is what the state said. And that's, that's what I'm looking forward to. That's about all I have to say. And everybody else has spoken beautifully. Thank you. Thank you, Lucy. Next up is Doug Bent. Welcome, Doug. Hold on a second. Let's get you on muted. Can you unmute from your side? You got me now. Okay. Okay. Good afternoon. Yes. My name is Doug Bent. I'm from Braintree, Vermont. I'm here to testify on a behalf of chief Shirley Hook and chief Colin Wood, better known as Raven. It's, yeah, a very emotional issue for Shirley. And Raven lives off the grid. And so they would, they asked me if I would testify in every half. I am on the commission of Native American affairs. I am on the commission of Native American affairs. Representing the Kawasaki. Tribe. Traditional tribe. Of the Abenaki nation. And also I'm the director of the white pine association. Which is the 501 C three for the tribe. And I just like to read this letter. That. After Shirley's mom and dad passed and her and her sister and her two brothers were going through their belongings and. They found this letter. That they'd never seen before or heard of. And it's, it's written. On the state of Vermont brand and state school. Letterhead. And this is a, a. MD Dr. Truman Alan. And this is it's addressed to Shirley's. Grandfather. Mr. Clarence hook. Dear Mr. Hook. Answering your favor. I did I mentioned this with May 20th, 1932. Answering your favor of the 17th Respirants to Delbert and Roseleba, Ashley would advise that there is a little question in my mind that they are going to mental retardation and limitation. We are all justified in recommending that they have the advantage, special study and training here so that we shall be able to define such what their condition may be and advise as to what seems best. A school like this affords an opportunity of careful individual study of such problem school children. The teacher reports that they are deficient in interest, that they don't grasp things quickly. Delbert is a masturbator, but this will probably cease after a little while. The children are doing even first grade work. They are rather restless and lack in concentration. It would be inadvisable, of course, to think of moving them at this time as they are now placed where they can receive the special attention that they need if we expect to help them. I am glad to report they seem to be in good health and are very happy here. They have not been at all homesick. I am glad to report any time you wish to write, very truly yours, Truman Allen. Well, I guess you can probably imagine what happened to that. Neither one of them had children. Yeah, I get a little emotional myself when I read this. Now, Chief Colin Wood, his grand-in-mother worked in the Waterbury State Hospital, and so you can imagine at that time she worked in the late 30s and 40s. Raven never knew that he was Abinac-y because no one ever mentioned it because his mother knew what might happen if he did. He was only told that he was when his father was pretty much on his deathbed. When they explained to his children, they had 10 children, why they hadn't been told and that they shouldn't be telling anybody even at the time if their father's death to keep it quiet. But he wanted them to know that they were in it. There's more stories like this in the tribe, the citizens of the tribe. This is just an example of what they personally dealt with. It's great that it's finally coming to this, and an apology. I guess this is a start, but we would like to see more, of course, as far as compensation for the Abinac-y and what was done to them. Possibly free tuition to Native children at state universities and possibly some land that they might use to grow crops, traditional crops and stuff. But I hope that's down the road and will happen. I guess that's all I have to say today. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Doug. Chief Stevens, I appreciate your comments about not just thinking of the past, but thinking of the future as well. And I think that's something important to keep in mind, not just with this, but with what comes from this. As we are learning, an apology is empty unless there's action that follows up from it. And the commission, of course, the task force is one step. And we've seen small steps in other legislation that's passed through recently. But I think what our job is, is acknowledging the past in a way we've never acknowledged it before. And I'm just curious to, Chief, just as long as I've known you, it's been in your work in the State House on behalf of our Indigenous people, it's just this idea of what history is. History is so important in so many ways. But I'm just curious to know, or just to get your thoughts on that in terms of what we're approaching here. It's not the be all in the end all, right? And an apology is not the be all in the end all, but it's a start. But what does it mean to your ancestors? For lack of a better word. I don't know if that's an appropriate question, but what does it mean? Well, I think the reason all of us work so hard is because we have, we stand on the shoulders of our ancestors. And without our ancestors, we wouldn't be here. They had to struggle to just survive and just be in the place that they are. As Rich said, we are place-based people. We never left here. People came here and affected us because we were doing okay before people came here. But there is room for everyone. And I always try to work with the legislative bodies to say, we're not here as victims. We're here as survivors in my view. My grandmother might have been a victim because she was directly impacted. But as others have said, if she would have been caught and sterilized, we wouldn't be talking to you today. The work that I have done to help uplift people is to honor the sacrifices and the struggles of our ancestors, but to also make a better future for our children. And the only way that we can do that is through partnerships, right? So an apology is as good as long as it is not hollow, like you said. UVM struggled with the apology, but they noticed after they did the apology, the world didn't collapse. The society didn't stop. They didn't go bankrupt or go underground or get destroyed because they apologized for their role in something that they shouldn't have done, even if at that time they thought it was acceptable. So all of the work that we do as Indigenous people, whether it be Carol, whether it be Lucy or Rich, myself or anybody else, or Doug or Shirley, is to provide equity. I go back to mention that we are often forgotten. We don't have the people to work full time on Native issues. How many people in the state government do you know that are Avanaki that work to be a resource for the legislators to be able to have all the information they need to know about passing bills? How come our children don't know about Avanaki history or even mandated to be taught about Avanaki Vermont history? There are so many things that could move us forward in a positive way as survivors, but also partners. I keep want to stress the fact that we're not here to continually beat up Europeans on things that they might have done or may not have done. We just don't want people to forget what happened, but because it happened, we are not on a level playing field. And we are disadvantaged, whether it be through health disparities or whether it be economic disparities or any of those things. And we need help to be able to get a hand up in order to be on that level playing field. And that's our role as leaders in our communities is to fight for those who can't speak. Is to be to honor our ancestors and the culture that has survived for thousands of years and to provide a path forward to make our grandchildren a little easier. And like I had said before, we're the only race of people that cannot self declare. And this legislative body has the power to give and take away things as they see fit. So it makes a very uncomfortable atmosphere of truly being who you are when that identity can be stripped from you at any time, or can be given at any time. So we have to ensure as partners that that never happens because the European government being dominion over us when it comes to our legal status is a real frightening place to be. That's like being in a relationship where somebody has all the power, and you have none. But we will always be who we are we will always survive we will always celebrate our culture. But I just wanted to mention that having that recognition status in 2011, made it a little easier for our people to be on an equitable playing field. And I just think that we need to continue that path forward. And I do appreciate all of you for that. I know that's long winded answer but I just think it needs to be said. Thank you. And it's been a privilege to work with you on this all and bring it forward. It's been 10 years. You know that this resolution was first introduced in the house. I think getting the words right is really important. And, you know, this is going through many iterations and Chief Stevens you helped me this summer on this. And in other testimony, I just want to make sure I get your input on this. People have said that there are other indigenous people other than the Abenaki bands. And so by naming, we have the Abenaki bands. But for modern is a mixed race or French Canadian heritage the poor in persons with disabilities. So by naming I want to make sure we name correctly, and we don't just if we leave a significant portion out I don't want to do that. And so Lucy I saw your hedge affirming is that would it be better for it to say, I talk about members of the Abenaki bands and other indigenous people. In the mid to late 1800s, there was a band of black foot that moved here to Vermont, and they are still here. And I think that the way that you've ordered it was was very well done. Okay. All right. I saw Carol nodding is that you feel okay. Okay. Well through many iterations of course and everyone. It's a very public process as we do this so I'll bring back to the committee and she Stevens I know you have given me some additional information this summer about some future actions, and I'll bring that back to consideration in the committee as well, because this is really, you know, an inner process and it's a, it's a, it's a committee process I just brought it forward to keep it going. So, you know, it's interesting represent down in here is I think the person introduced to 10 years ago. And so it's, it's, and it's a 90th anniversary of this legislation, March 31 1931. So I sure hope we can get it out. This session. Thank you all. Carol. Yes, rich. Go ahead. May I'd like to add something to what representative Kulaki was just addressing and in terms of the language here. I think we want to be aware of the thinking and the effect of our actions when we, when we overly specify in that we are, we may be falling into the trap of not being inclusive, which exactly is, which is exactly what the eugenics survey was about. It is about separating people and othering them, turning them into those people. And we don't want to do that. We want to recognize that this is something that a lot of people are subjected to. Many of them were a Beniki. Some of them were not, but we need to allow that in a spirit of moving forward and conducting ourselves in a good manner. Let's not be those people. Thank you. Yes, thank you. And I'm sorry I have. And if sketchy wifi right now, I'm just so if I'm not here, I'm still here. Rich. And actually Carol, can I ask a question just about the, the Native American commission right now is there a position by the commission on this at all. I mean, we're represented today by We're missing a band at least we're missing. I know we're missing the Mrs. Coy band at this time and we have put an invitation out to have them come in on Thursday. But is there a position from the commission at all on this bill or on each 96 yet. We, yes, we actually discussed this last year, and the feeling about it then was that an apology would have to be all encompassing and not just words but also followed with action so at that point in time, we had decided that it would be better to work on other bills that were in the queue at that point. Since then, several of us had actually given testimony last year, I was there also, and to listen to the discussions within the committee at the time. It was very apparent that people were very sincere in having a resolution pass that would be not just words but having actions and real actions attached to it. So since then, we've discussed it several times in our in our meetings and everyone is very much in support of this. I can't speak for the entire group. The feeling that I that I get from everyone is that yes, don't make it an empty apology. And as several heroes said that actions speak louder than words. And if you want to do a sincere apology. As rich said, be inclusive, but also follow it up with actions to prove that sincerity. Did that answer what you were asking? Yes, it did. Thank you. And rich, I wanted to follow up with the inclusivity question that you had that you that you stated the by name are, as you mentioned mixed race French Indian French Canadian French American, we know the disabled we know. And I'm curious to know like, how do we. Is it in our purview is it and is it necessary to know the differences between everybody who is affected by this. Because the records are so incomplete. Thank you for the question I think that's it sounds nuanced but it's important. It does matter. Simple answer there, details do matter and we have we have names and faces and places and and of those who are here and we're here and those who are not here. So, it's, it's real and we need to make this real. We can't keep it abstract. I think we have enough. Plenty, we have more than enough. It's too much to go on. It is too much. The fact that the records are sketchy and blurry and coded, if you will, in different ways speaks exactly to why these programs are put in place. It's putting people out of mind and and and literally just out permanently. It just falls into a pattern of behavior that the state of Vermont and many other places have pursued where where if you look in the records. A couple hundred years the state of Vermont is not really talking about the Benneke people very much. They talk about the St. Francis Indians. They talk about the Canada Indians the North Indians. They're always somewhere else. And we can't, we can't name it because then we're implicated. But I think we have enough to go on here. No, thank you representative Triana. In relation to Chief Stevens testimony. To me that in his hopes that we could assure that this never happens again. That maybe we should be considering a clause or whereas or a paragraph with some sort of recommendation or even something stronger that this legislation was passed. And it's now a disgrace to the Vermont people, both indigenous and European heritage that we should be considering a clause that would recommend that this never happens again with respect to what you Stevens had asked or spoken of in this testimony. Okay, that's something to consider. When we, when we start working on the markup. Representative Colacchi. Representative trial chief Stevens did give me some language on that over the summer on our break and what I'll do is send it back to him for confirmation and then let me do markup I'll bring that language to the committee for consideration. So we have, we have that to add to consider the idea john thank you. Further questions or comments for our folks for our guests. Representative Stevens. I'm sorry. I wanted to say what what you had mentioned Tom when you were asking rich about inclusivity. I think if if there are, there are, if you do name names or use Western avanaki or French Canadian or French in years or whatever. And if you, if you put that clause in and all others affected by the eugenics program, you're going to encompass more than just the people if, if you do name or you do kind of say what was in the bill of 1931. I think there should be and all those affected by the eugenics survey because it wasn't just the individuals directly it was all of the future generations and everything else that has been impacted since then so I think it's a good, it's a good catch all I don't want to use that as a general sense that would encompass all indigenous people, all people who have been affected that we may or may not know. So I just think that if someone was affected by the eugenics and know their family was they won't feel like they were left out because you said, and all others affected by this program. I think then that they would feel comfortable that they were also included. If that makes sense. I just wanted to say that might be a good thing to add. I think that's a start. I mean, it's just, again, trying to not be exclusive, you know, accidentally is is really one of the goals here too. All right, further questions. Rich. I apologize for speaking again, but I, in the interest of not assuming and and just taking things for granted. And, and by way of being inclusive, I want to specifically say thank you for that the that this committee is is reaching out and inviting the voices of the community that has been a community and perhaps the majority community that has been most affected by this eugenics situation. That is not always the case. Often, people will pick something up in the name of justice and and carry it forward because they think they're doing the right thing. It can be patronizing the name of of being benevolent, and that is not the way to go about this because that is not real change. You need to have the voices of the people who are affected. And they are present here. And I want to acknowledge that and say thank you. And I hope that that sets a pattern going forward that when native people are concerned their voices are always centered. And they come first. It's not because they're first, but because I mean it just makes sense that's that's who's affected the most and one cannot know what another one's reality is so you're going there and thank you for that representative I just wanted to introduce myself on Tiffany Blumley from Burlington and new to the committee and new to this particular resolution and I really appreciate the time you've taken to offer additional perspective to those of us who are new to the committee and and because it's, you know, it breaks up your day and I appreciate your being here. Thank you. Representative Murphy. Thank you chair Stevens and I'm curious this may be a question that isn't for this moment because it is a bit of a reference to the H 96. And from, from what was just spoken by rich I, I just really want to respond when we were talking about the committee to form the commission, and who would be voting members and how we had a bit of a dialogue on the voting process, weren't the legislators for that particular commission. And I think it's just appropriate to at least bring that to the table if not have further discussion on it here, and I truly want to thank those that were with us this afternoon and giving their very personal testimony. It isn't easy to hear, and I can only imagine that it's no easier to share. So thank you. Yes, thank you Barbara we're going to pick up on 96. I think on Wednesday afternoon where this will come up. I think the questions of the of how the commission task force would be would be done but it's an interesting question. That I know applies to the truth and reconciliation Commission perhaps, you know a little bit ahead of the task force but I think it's a question of the task force as well. Of how what role does the legislature have and we have a role in passing the bill, we have a role in establishing through statute, what the commission could be, and then our role has to back off. But, but those decisions get made at this. The creation of the tools, get, get done at this level, and then we have to be able to let go of those tools and so whether it's in this task force, we'll have a more full conversation tomorrow afternoon on on 96. But any thoughts on that from anybody who is here today obviously is more than welcome. Chief Stevens. Yeah, thank you I just want to mention one thing just for legislators to keep in mind. I've seen many bills that have come out in the, in the legislative process that always creates commissions, councils, boards, advisory committees. And you have to understand the reason why I asked for like my second bullet point was that we have no representation is that there's a lot of other minority populations that are backed by national organizations that have the resources to commit to represent their interests full time. And there are no full time avanaki people that are that are available, like rich myself others work every day and we're on these things these councils are trying to advise people on our own time. Nights weekends are in the middle like I'm working for somebody else right they're paying me to do native things right now and to testify right, or I'm taking my personal time off in order to do it. We need to the state really needs to provide avenues to have full time representation. So that way it's not always a board or commission that's just a per diem or just travel money or not at all, because you're going to get the same people all the time that have the ability to do it. And it's not going to be representative of, you know, a diverse amount of people so I'm just, there's nothing wrong with people serving but I'm just saying is you want to allow people the ability to be able to do that. And I think that's one of the things that should be considered when all of these boards commissions and all these things are created, and there's no avenue for full time representation to respond sort of like what the federal disparity officer has or you know Tom we worked on bills for creating an office of Native American affairs or something to have full time resources and representation but I just wanted to mention that all of these boards and commissions are great but if you don't have the people in the time to fill them, then we're still under voiced, and we fall further and further below other people who do have those resources to commit to those. And I'll like like the, the task force their recreation and reconciliation all those, we weren't part of those conversations. We, you know, that started from, from another community. And so anyway rich contestants can, you know, would probably back this up is just that we, we all spend a lot of time doing volunteer stuff and, and it affects our normal jobs and other things so thank you. That's a point was when we, as you said, could be a committee could be a task force. But I with this focus on this result in a commission that provides us with the kind of work that moves it forward in a way that's honest and true. But there are certainly shells filled with dusty reports from the past as well. Any closing comments or thoughts from Lucy or Carol or, or, or Doug before, before we head out. I would, I would like everybody for allowing us to share our stories and for the, the sincere. This drop by the sincerity of everybody that work on this last year and it's something for sure. It is a difficult thing sometimes to share stories, because it really did impact generations forever. And that, you know, honoring the ancestors by recognizing that they are our ancestors and that that's where we came from. You truly. Glad in my heart to know that you're working on this with us. Thank you. Yes, and privilege. Go ahead, Lucy. I would like to thank everybody also as I've done more research on to Vermont history. You know, I collect old Vermont history books, and one of the history books I have is from 1943. And it describes the timeline of the history of Vermont. And the first section of the timeline is 1600 no man's land. And there is not anything in that particular book that talks about the Abinac people at all. And I feel like when I, when I look for our history and what is documented in in books that teach our children, our high school college students, we are oblivious. So hopefully with this commission or with this group of legislators looking into reconciliation that further on down the road, we can maybe have an educational program in schools that talks about the history of Vermont that is missing in other history books. But thank you all very much for your time and for looking at these issues and looking at us. Thank you. I'm guessing representatives chair Stevens frozen is going to be back to us. I think he logged out to log back in. If I may ask a naive question to my, my friends here. I'm hearing two different pronunciations of Benekie and Abinackie. And a year ago, my, my ears are only hearing Abinackie. And now I like rich, I'm hearing a Benekie from you. And I want to make sure that we use the correct term. And so I need a little help which what is the current pronunciation. Fair enough. You don't speak Benekie. So these, these are all the same word, and it's all fine. There is no right or wrong. As long as we are in agreement what we're talking about. You know, the original they all come from the original word won't banaki, don land. So there's your, there's your word in the original tongue. If you're an English speaker, you might say Abinackie. If you're a French speaker, a little closer to the original language, traditional allies, you might say a Benekie. If you're from Vermont, which we all are, you might say Abinackie. And many Vermonters might say Abinackie. And, and these are all the same thing. So thank you for asking but don't worry about it. Thank you. I would add to that. It's kind of like tomato tomato. They're both the same. Okay, I'm cutting in and out here. I think I need to restart my computer or my, my Wi-Fi here. So I would say thank you to Carol and Don and Rich and Doug and Lucy for coming in today. Please stay in touch with us. Please, you know, let us know that when we, if we're going down a path, not that we shouldn't be with the language or with, with our work, your opinions are welcomed and entrusted. And we will pick up with this on Thursday morning, I believe, with, with more witnesses from affected communities. Committee, let's take, let's take 10 because it might take me that long to restart everything. And, or let's just say let's be back at 230. Hopefully I'll, like all I can see from you folks is like watching a movie from 1892 or something like that. It's just very, it's the worst connection I've had all year long. So, but thanks everybody.