 have to struggle with some of these changes going forward. On the other hand, besides those challenges we're faced with opportunities, food security increased through greater efficiency in the supply chains. Supermarkets is motors of rice market quality differentiation and labeling. And all of this will increase incentives right up the supply chain to the farmers. Now I have some open questions that I feel privileged to just throw on the table which are two, I've been thinking what the heck is the role of policy and private public partnerships to address these challenges and pursue these opportunities. Is this a thing that will happen parallel or will policy interact with it? Will it make it faster? Will it make it easier? Will it include more people? Will it make it more effective? And the last question I had actually flipped the other way around when I was sitting this morning listening to the plenary. I was thinking, hey, everybody has in their line of rice farmer and formal rice farmer and a big government guy. That's the way all these debates go. Over and over and over again like a broken record. And of course when there's a crisis it becomes more of a broken record. It spins a little bit faster. But really these changes I'm talking about are a lot more important over the longer term than some policy debates here and there as you're bumping along. How will these things change the policy debate? How will these actors that are consolidating turn around and say as they have in the produce sector, they have in the dairy sector, they have in the meat sector, they have in the non-food sector. They turn around and policy makers and they say, hey, make this work. Cut down the resistance, cut down the constraints. We need to make this market grow. What are you going to do about that? And there's going to be a heavy pressure in the future that will affect how the policies and how these market structures and regulations develop. Just in the way that crop science people are doing at present, influencing the regulations and the property rights that envelop the supply chain at the input end. So with that I conclude. Thank you. Thank you Tom for these excellent presentations. So we concluded all our presentations. I'm happy to say that actually we have 30 more minutes for a panel discussion. And also I'm happy to tell you that we have Dr. Rupingani who will join us for the panel discussion. If you couldn't ask a question during the planning debate, you've got a second chance now. You can definitely direct a question to Babu here who will join us for the discussion. I'm sure I would definitely like to hear from the private sector, particularly the rice trading community, what Tom said regarding rice differentiation or the chain in the supply chain. With that, let me open up the floor for the question and answer. Do you have any mic here? Any questions from the audience there? Any mic here? Please introduce yourself and tell who you are asking the question. Here, in the front. I'm not as good as you in the face of this. My name is Rima Dharmawan. I'm from the Naiman group of Indonesia. This is very interesting because of the... I just get a question to Dr. Rupingani regarding the policy about the low price... low price policy versus high price policy. In a developing country, if we take the policy, usually we take the low price policy in order to incorporate the... what we call it the poverty reduction. Because if we increase the price of rice, then the poverty people is getting more. That's... Yes, this is related to the... the open question by Prof. Thomas Leiden regarding how was the role of the policy with the private... public private partnership, for example. In Indonesia, case of Indonesia, million small holders engage in the rice production. Now we are in the limitic when we want to offer the private sector to incorporate in this business. If we don't open this kind of business to the private sector, maybe we are life behind from others from the self-confidence. But in other side, this is the limitic also how we incorporate the small holders in this business. So, win-win solution between the private sector and the small holders. And the second question is regarding the role of the biotechnology. This is actually... this is still also propons because involvement of the multinational cooperation in this business. Some of the expert thing that biotechnology is just the way smart multifunction company approach to control the rice production or food production in the developing country through the... to control the biotechnology like a seed and fertilizer and other... So I just take a few regarding of the how we gonna get the mass production of the biotechnology in order to small farmers also can incorporate and take the chance to get the not expensive technology. Thank you. Thank you. The question on whether the country should pursue a low food price policy or not. I think in the very early stages of development it probably makes sense to have some kind of a program to support very poor consumers. But if you look at Asian economies today for most of them having a policy that's low price policy primarily supporting urban consumers is becoming counterproductive. It's becoming counterproductive because the incentives for farm households to increase their productivity is severely being affected by this type of price policies. So I think for a government you have a choice. You have a choice of putting your money into massive productivity improvement and thereby seeing a lot of reduction in prices versus putting that same amount of money into ways in which you subsidize urban consumers without seeing a commensurate improvement in productivity. And I would argue that over the long term working on enhancing productivity or smallholder agriculture is a much more viable option than trying to subsidize urban consumers and gain politically from that. Just, I think that... Sorry, yes. Just some points about including small farmers and the very interesting point you made that on one side if you lag in trying to develop and promote this structural transformation and modernization then you're foregoing gains from efficiency, obviously. On the other hand, you have the equity trade-off and the issue of including small farmers. I think that what we're seeing is that de facto, and I can talk a little bit about the case of Indonesia, certainly in areas like Banyung we find that larger farmers are buying up the rice land of smaller rice farmers and either shifting over to culture or having larger rice operations. And in many areas we've seen this very large... 50% of the land in the rice sample that we did in Hangzhou, China, central rice producing area was rental land. And so the rental markets are basically seeing the bigger actors or medium actors pulling land away and renting while a lot of those smaller farmers are going to migration or off-farm activity. And so I think there'll be consolidation of land and land rental that will change the face of things regardless of how policy acts. Secondly, we talk about small farms but I think we need to define small farms and we can think about it in the Indonesian case that there's small farms and there's small farms. There's small farms that are very involved in let's say the horticultural supply chains in Indonesia into modern markets but that have non-land assets that are adequate. Irrigation, access to road, extension, warehouses, information, education. These are non-land assets that are useful that can be used as the base, for example, to adequately associate or aggregate and attain the kinds of economies of scale and quality together that are necessary to be in this kind of changing markets. However, what we found both in rice and in non-rice products, the small farmer that's in the hinterland that's far from the road that doesn't have the education or extension or irrigation, those are the real excluded ones and I think will continue to be excluded and probably will actually have acceleration and this is a big debate in India but do you use fertilizer subsidy that in the states that we've studied Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh we've found that the huge majority of the subsidized fertilizer being sold to the state retail stores is going to the medium and large farmers, not to the small farmers. And so, do you use that fund for fertilizer subsidy in rice and wheat areas or do you use it to improve roads and assets that can serve the smallest farmers? That's a difficult question. And third, the small farmers probably should also be moving into horticulture and other things that pay more per hectare. Horticulture pays four times more than rice. It's crazy for them to stay in rice when they can shift into something that pays a lot more. And last, I think that contracts and associations among farmers could be a possible way to go and in that case, that's the way with the future and often like in India for example, regulations really keep companies from entering into contract relations. Lack of intellectual property right, lack of contract enforcement laws and mechanisms mar that as well as cooperative laws that allow you to inform those associations productively for marketing purposes. Those have to be reformed. Those are all regulations that can help. I would like to, so if I understood correctly there were two sides of this question. One, the fear of a multinational company controlling food chain. And the second one is how to make technology available to the possible farmers. Regarding your, the first question is here that a multinational company could be controlling food chain. I think that this is definitely a fear and that this is not reality. I think that there is a misconception between consolidation that happened into the agro-technical sector and its power into the food chain. If you look at the food chain it means that a huge amount of stakeholders starting with the farmer himself, the consumers, the miller in the case of Rari, some of the food industry and so on and so forth. Not forgetting the politician and the authority against the food chain. So I don't think that a company like like in my case by our clients has an adaptional power and we'd be able to control it. We are under the influence of many, many different organizations also and this is something that we have to deal with. So I think that we are getting this way too much forward compared to what we truly have. Regarding the introduction of biotechnology I would like to maybe remind you that in the case of rice probably the first biotech products are not going to be introduced by multinational companies. In the case of probably the two first products that may be introduced into the marketplace are going to be on one hand with Chinese with the rice and on the other hand, golden rice. So you see that in the private sector is not the only one who is working on this type of technology. The public sector is also very heavily involved into this because it has been perceived and understood as a technology that is going to help addressing the challenges that we are facing. The second point was regarding the making this technology available to the social platform. And this is going back to really the presentation that I have and hopefully technology is one