 Big shit, it's a unique hustle nigga, big shit, big shit, big shit, name another podcast like this. Check it, check it, check it, it's a unique hustle, it's your boy E.C.O. and I'm here with the lovely, amazing official Mr. Jamaica, how you doing? None, none, well go on. Man, hey man, God bless us with a jewel today, man. I know. Man, we having a fun time in New Orleans? Exactly, fun, fun, fun. We only been out here three times, right? This is the third time. 19 years, three times. We've been together 19 years. And you know what? I think this is the longest we've stayed in New Orleans. Because we always go to Atlanta, so. Yeah, every time we've been to New Orleans, we want to stay here for a day. Mac is here, man. We in New Orleans, man. In New Orleans, in the Big Easy. Oh, and Happy Anniversary. Thank you, man. Thank you. We do it in there, man. It wasn't easy. Let me get my, let me get my speech. Okay, go ahead. It wasn't easy. It wasn't easy? No, but you know, because of- It wasn't the Big Easy? No, it wasn't. It was me, mostly, you know, just sacrificing. And, you know, doing the thing where we just used it. I know, that's what I was, that's what I was just about to say. I was like, what? I mean, you got to understand, man. America. America. You didn't just, you didn't just hit America. No, I got to give it to them, man. Just, no, I'm blessed to have you. So, I understand that. And I know you put up with me. It was hard. So, I cleaned it up good, right? You see how he cleaned it up? Man, so, man, what's going on, man? America. He cleaned it up. So, what's going on, man? Just give us a spiel, man. Like, man, you've been through so much. You done done so much, man. But before you get into spiel, no, no, no. I want to know, let's go back before the spiel starts. Okay? Okay. Let's go back. Are you born and raised here? Yes, born and raised uptown New Orleans. Uptown New Orleans. How was that for you? It's a very good question, first of all. Uptown was, it was very live. It was a lot of life. It was a lot of love. You know, it was dangerous at times. But for the most part, my childhood and upbringing was, it was pretty fun. It was dope. Siblings? Yeah. Brothers, sisters? Well, I'm the oldest of six, so. Oldest of six. I was the leader of the pack. And I didn't really have a choice. So, a lot fell on your shoulders? Yeah, a lot always fell on my shoulders. How was it being a leader? Because, you know, okay, were you a leader? Can you know, as a kid, you just do your thing. You're not thinking about I have these siblings actually looking up to me, and if I do this, they're going to follow. Right. How were you as that leader? Well, I didn't have the luxury of not knowing that they would follow. Like my parents made sure I understood that you was the leader of the pack, and everything you do is going to affect the way your siblings see it and the way they view the world. So, it was great that they trusted me with that type of responsibility, but it came with a heavy weight. So, for a child, it was like, oh, man. So, I kind of, a lot of times, as always, when things didn't work out, I just kind of felt, you know, like I let everybody down. Wow. And you were, because it sounded like your dad and your mom wasn't a household? Yeah, my parents are actually still married today. That's awesome. They've been married now for 45 years. This year, this November will make 46 years. Wow, that's a blessing. Yeah, because since we started this show and interviewing a lot of people, not a lot of people have that luxury at all. Man, that's a blessing. I can tell you for a fact that it is because everybody we get on the panel will be like, now my mom and dad, they're not together. See, that's why I was like, what you mean you the only one sacrificing? My mom's had to do a lot of sacrificing. And I know it. I'll just give it a thought. And I know what that means, joking. Yeah, they've been together now for almost 46 years. That's a long time. And that's something that instills something in you as well. To see that, you have to stand on that as a child, as that being your mom and dad. You being in relationships, it means something. Like because you don't look at it the same. Right. You can't because you know a serious business because you grew up, you grew up seeing that, right? Right. So that's the difference. But you don't pay attention to it. But I mean, you know, just get back to it. No, what I was saying is, but then when you're a child and you see your parents having ups and downs or in the same household, you're not thinking about it. You don't think about it till you are grown and you have to deal with your own relationship or you have to deal with your own. Because I remember when I got married, I called my mom and I was like, mom, I don't know how you balanced all of this. Children having time for yourself and then finding time for your husband. And I mean, it's a challenge every day to find time to make everybody happy plus also take care of yourself. Right. Yeah. It very much is a challenging thing. Parents make it look really easy. Let's get out into the nuts and bolts. And it just looks that way. It just looks that way. I mean, I feel that any relationship or relationship itself is a sacrifice because you have to sacrifice a part of yourself to, I guess you would say, mend with someone else. So when I look at, you going over there, okay, when I look at just coming up in New Orleans, how was it for, we're going to get on the music a little bit, like no limit, that movement when it first took off. How was it for you? Okay. Well, the strange thing is I had already been professionally recording records before No Limit came about. Okay. My first album came out when I was 12. That was like 1989. And I was introduced to the music industry by Gregory D. and Mandy Fresh, who were a local group in New Orleans at the time. And by the time I linked with No Limit or by the time the No Limit movement had started, like right around that time that it was on the verge of blowing up, I was probably at that period in my life where I was like, something has to happen. Something has to happen. So I had a few offers from a couple different record labels. How old were you when you met them? When I met them. When this started happening for you? I was about 19. I was just trying to, so you had already, who put you in the music at 12? Well, as I mentioned, a guy named Gregory D. from New Orleans put a record out in 1986. It was Gregory D. and Sporty T. They were in a group called the Ninja Crew. The Ninja Crew actually split up around 87. And Gregory D. found a DJ from the seventh ward named Mandy Fresh. Got it. And they linked up. There you go. Greg told me that, he told me from day one, he said, Lil Mac, when I get on, I got you. And he came, got me. And I was like 11 years old. And they produced, him and Mandy Fresh produced my first record. And it was released in 1989. So I was called, the name of the album was Deliverical Magic. Wow. And so do you still got that music? I can still find that music. Yeah. That's crazy. And so that was a young Mandy Fresh. I always thought it was different phases of Mandy Fresh anyway. So that answers questions for me. Right. In fact, if you look at the video, I had a video out back then called I Need Wheels. Mandy is actually sitting right behind me. We were on the street car on the trial in the video. And you'll get to see a young Mandy Fresh with the high top fade and everything. How was that? Like back then producing music and just basically putting out music during that time with Mandy Fresh. Like how was that? Well, it was great. It was a learning experience for me. Like Mandy actually taught me how to arrange my songs in what I would call song mode. Because before meeting Mandy, I just used to, my raps were like large run on paragraphs. And Mandy was like, nah, Lil Mac, you got to break it down into 16 bars and then eight bars for the hook. And so he kind of coached me on how to arrange the songs. That is so. And watching him do beats, he eventually made me wanna, you know, when he was probably outside or something because we used to record in his bedroom. So when he was outside, I would sneak and go plug his equipment up and try to tap on the button so I can learn how to make beats. And eventually he sat down and showed me how to do it because he knew if not, I was going to break his equipment. But I was a kid. He was like 20, 19, 20. I was like 12. And he just knew that I was a kind of a mischievous and stubborn kid who was going to do what I wanted to do. Wow. So I mean, so when you, when you, once you start to link into the music, now it's going up to 19 now. Like, like the part where now the No Limit phase start, you got to make a choice. So Manny Freshman was around then because I know K.L. I always tell me the story about he met baby before Manny and he met baby and Manny before they knew each other, you know, and stuff like that. So I understand that being that you guys are in New Orleans, this kind of stuff is going to happen. But for you, like you were seeing the music, you was turned on to it early. Manny didn't do the No Limit thing. How did that, how did that come out? You know what I mean? Right. Split out. Well, Manny had already been with Cash Money before he, before No Limit had, before No Limit had got really out there. Okay. Manny was already with Cash Money. And in fact, I was courting Cash Money at the time. Okay. And I usually were courting because I was hanging around, I did a song with B.G. And I was just trying to get in. Yeah. You know, it was, it was, I was just trying to get in where I fit in. Where is this song at with B.G.? That's my guy. It's on Chopper City. On the first Chopper City, it's called Niggas in Trouble. All right. So we were, you know, we talked to them and I was signed to a record label at the time called Ionic. And I was with a good friend of mine named Storm. And we were recording an album and getting ready to release it. And something just kind of fell with the record label. And I was just looking for a new spot, a new home to go to actually record. And I met Cain and Abel and started hanging with them because they were, they were releasing music at the time under the name Double Vision. Yeah. And so I was hanging with them. And I knew Fiend, you know, all of us, with the exception of Cain and Abel, was a lot of us kind of grew up in the same neighborhood. Neighborhood. And so I was meeting some of the other guys through the guys I knew from my neighborhood and my cousin, who is now deceased, he was a member of Prime Suspects with No Limit. Okay. And I want his name is Skanoog. And you know, Rest in Peace to Skanoog, but he kind of talked me into, it was a combination of him, K.L., Mia and Cain and Abel. That kind of got me to No Limit. They're trying to get you. And if I missed out on anybody, those are just the names that came over. But let me ask, it seemed like Mia would be... Mia would be hustling. Yeah, hustling. We already see a lot of money. So like, so when you made that decision though, so you had an alternative to go to cash money. So because, because to me, you know, the No Limit thing was big, you know, even before the cash money thing took off, of course. But you had choices back then. Yeah, what cash money was big locally. See, I didn't, we, we wasn't here. Yeah, in this region, they were like, yeah, they dominated this region. Even when Body Body was out. You see what I'm saying? I guess both got their fair share around that time, because at the time, I would say No Limit was probably bigger in the Midwest and West Coast at that time, when cash money was dominating the local scene. And by the time No Limit came down south, by the time P came down here, to kind of get what eventually became that sound that he's known for, I was working around, working around Cain and Abel, Fiend. Okay. And people like that. And I did a song with Cain and Abel. That was the very first song I did as a No, before I signed with No Limit. But the very first thing I did with No Limit was a song called God and Guns on Cain and Abel's Seven Sins album. So I met P at their video shoot for Gangster Fire. And once I met him, you know, we talked briefly, he was like, man, come to the studio Thursday, we care. And I came and I had never moved back home. So that was kind of history after that. So when you think about the music and the way that that movement went during the time, that was it, you guys did y'all tour at that time? Or was it just y'all were making music and just staying, you know, in the inner city? How did it go? Once I got with him. Once you got with No Limit. Well, when I got with him, they was right on the verge of taking off. Taking off, okay. So it was it was great at that time. You know, tours were, I mean, people were calling from everywhere. Everywhere trying to get you guys. Yeah, we couldn't we couldn't get enough tours. We probably could have did. We probably could have turned down some tours. Some tours. There were so many calls for that at that time. And it was it was something it was something to see, man. It was it was something big. And I was kind of an odd ball out because I grew up an East Coast rap fan. What I really didn't I really didn't listen to a lot of. I would say to a lot of Southern rap at that time. What was you listening to an East Coast? Well, you know, I grew up a die hard rock him fan. So so you know what I mean? I do right there. And when you when you grow up a fan of the God, it's kind of it's kind of hard to it's almost like when you're a 12th grade, it's kind of hard to sit in the sixth grade classroom. If that makes sense. Yeah, because they lyrical. And that's not to say that's not to say about the market. I was just saying certain artists. It was kind of hard for me to just get into if you didn't really have any complexity because I was attracted to complex stuff. I really wasn't into simplicity. And when I decided to make the move to get with No Limit, it was because I felt I would stick out like a sore thumb. Okay, I get it. See what I mean? I get it. Because I needed that something that separated me from anything else, not just on No Limit, but down south in general. And that was one of the major factors. Like a lot of my friends who grew up like me, or fans of certain type of artists, they were like, what are you doing? I was like, oh, I know exactly what I'm doing. Because if I go on the East Coast and sign with one of those labels, I'll just fall in the array of artists out there. And here I will be the only one that sounds like this. And that's what I want. So you perfected that sound. Don't know if I perfected it, but I worked on perfecting it. So when you think about just coming up and you end up basically, I know you hit a bump in the road or whatever, and you had to go and sit down for a while. Just explain it. I guess we can get into that a little bit. I know you over waiting on that. Right. So what happened, why you got into it? To stir you off the, we don't know. I'm going to be honest with you. We basically- We haven't heard the story yet. Never. Okay. Before I get into that, I want to say this. Okay. Because I had a moment to think about some of the artists in the South that I really listened to. Let's talk about it. As far as lyrically. My favorite artist, and because I listened, it wasn't that I- Let me see who it is. It wasn't that I was adverse to a region. I was just more into a certain level of lyrical content. Let me see who your favorite artist in the South was. In the South, I would definitely say that Scarface was one of- I knew it. I knew it. I already knew it. I knew it. I knew it. I could have said it. I started to say it. He was the- Everybody said that. He was that lyrical. He bad, man. He never did a bad verse. Yeah, he was that lyrical dude that I was like, yo, I didn't care what Scarface was talking about. The way he talked about it made me want to listen. I would say Bun B always had lyrical. See, I see where he at with you. He was lyrical. Eight ball. MJG, too. You can't do that. You know how to feel the lead pimp, Bob. We feel to be into it. Oh, that's what I was waiting for. No, no, no, I was waiting. Man, you ain't done yet. I ain't done yet. I ain't done yet. I like eight ball and MJG. Outcast, definitely. Outcast were- Outcast kind of made me proud of the South. I just like Andre. Yeah, they- Yes, he always say that. Yeah, they made me proud of the South lyrically. So Outcat Goodie, my hub. Goodie-Mob Love, Goodie-Mob. Goodie-Mob Skit. They were another group that made me proud of the South. And believe it or not, believe it or not, mystical. That's a bad man. But I can't really speak on them because we was on the same label. So I love, I love a lot of them. He's different. And I've seen bias if I talk about the people on the label. Juvenile. Juvenile was dope. What people didn't give Juvenile credit for, his style was so unique that I don't- Him and Mystical, I think that their styles were so unique that they didn't really get the credit I felt they deserved for their lyrical content. You see what I'm saying? Feen another artist that I think that his style was so unique that it kind of went over your head that there was real lyricism. But y'all was hogging the game during that time. It's not fair, bro. It's like that time, it was phases where it was nothing else going on. All the music was dropping with no limit, man. Yeah. And finally, I really, this was because I had guilty pleasures too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't listen to all lyrical. I always had that artist I just did. I didn't want to think. I always had that artist who I just liked to hear. And that would be Pimpsy. He was dead. I just liked Pimp's voice and I liked his tracks. I really didn't care what Pimp was talking about. His voice and his tracks was just fire. I mean, that sweet John, he just had that sound. And the production. That's what I mean with tracks. The tracks were just dope. And he just had that voice. Wow. So that was one of my guilty pleasures. It was like, it really didn't matter. I just liked it. I can't lie, man. Scarface is one of those dudes. You mentioned him first. His lyrics and the way he ride beats, man. It's a difference to what he come in. I used to tell dudes all the time because they would say Jay-Z to Jay-Z. I said, nigga, you bring Jay-Z, I'm going to bring Scarface. And I promise you he going to know what it is. I just know what type of dude. Scarface is. He's not fit to go in there and play with nobody. I don't care who it is. It was Pock. He was going in there serious. You was not fit to out just whatever you doing. He going to do it to the max. And it's a problem. Like you got to bring it. But that's a true artist. I mean, when you and I like to feel I'm the same way. If I get on your song, man, I'm coming. I hope I really hope that you. I really hope you do your due diligence. And I really hope that you you prepared. Because I mean, I'm going to do me. All right, now give us the skill. So now everything we get America. We're going to get to the story. Yeah. We're going to get to the story, the spiel, the crash shot, I guess. What? But usually like even when I crashed out, when I did things where it made me to where I had to stop and look at my car, it helped me so much, bro. And I wouldn't trade it for the world. And I know it sounds crazy. Send in those courtrooms, whatever I had to do to do what I had to do. I wouldn't change a thing because I wouldn't be who I am right now sitting in this table, bro. I think I feel the same way. And I say that unapologetically, that we all have that road that we take in life and your role defines you. And because the road defines you, it would be idiotic to not embrace and be thankful for that road because that road defines you. Great. I agree. So with that being said, around 1997, once I got with no limit or whatever, we were traveling. Everything was doing, everything was great at that time. Financially, for a young man, I was able to purchase a home and do a lot of stuff for my family that I dreamed of. Excuse me. Because we kind of, we grew up, I won't say poor because I used to say poor, but as a mature adult, I feel that the word poor is misused by many of us because there are countries where there are people that are really poor that have to walk miles to get clean water. So just because I may have had this pair of shoes and not that pair of shoes doesn't mean we were poor. There are people that really don't have any food to eat. And some people say, well, we got this beans and rice on the shelf. Well, you have beans and rice. There are some places that don't have beans and rice. So I don't like to misuse that word poor. But we grew up with, I would say, we grew up lacking in some things. But we had essentials. You know, we were, we had a roof over our head. We had food on our table. We had clothes on our back. May have not been the best at times, but you know, the dream is always to do better for your family. So I was blessed at 20, 21 years old to be able to take care and provide for my family. And I felt proud. I think somewhere along the line in my immaturity at 21, 22 years old, I neglected to really get responsible about those variables. And I always allude to those variables because it's those things that I think we overlook that we see that's going on around us, particularly when they involve the people we love or friends. We overlook little things and those little things add up. You know, it might be a little speck of dust here, but in about two months, it might be a pile of dirt. So we overlook it. We overlook it. And I think that for me, I got to a point where I was moving so freely and swiftly in my life, I got comfortable and I think I neglected to check those variables, right? Because being an artist, believe it or not, is a business. Being an artist is a business. The artist is a business. And a lot of artists don't see themselves that way. And even in the 90s, a lot of us, we didn't see our individual selves as a business. Yeah, back then it was different than what it is now. Right. And when you're a businessman and you see yourself as a business, it's sort of like a lyric that Jay-Z said, I'm not a businessman, I'm a business man. And when you see yourself that way, then you're going to protect that business and you're going to make sure that, okay, everything is proper, everything is in order, and that's what you should do. Well, I think that because in my immaturity, I didn't, I didn't micromanage everything and everybody. And when you have certain elements in your surroundings, you have to be aware of them. And if they are not constructive, then they can only be destructive. But how can you micromanage everybody? Because it especially depends on how many people you have around you. Right. It's not possible for you. It's impossible. Right. So that once again goes to knowing yourself and keeping even that in check, not having everybody around you, as many people around you. So, and let me say for the record that I don't think that any of the people around me had nefarious intent with me. It was just those variables that we failed to keep in check and keep things in order. So, with all of that being said, it led to it culminated in the night of February 20, 2000. I was actually arrested on the 21st, but everything happened on February the 20th. It was a party that I went to that my mom gave. It was an event that she gave to showcase some artists from that area that we threw the party in. And I had just came from off a tour. I went to it. My job was to come make an appearance, to draw the crowd, sign some autographs, and roll out. Much of my family was there with me at this place. My dad, my mom, aunts, uncles, cousins. It was a gang of us in this place. And somewhere after midnight, a fight broke out between one of my cousins and some people and some guy in the club. Well, this fight resulted in the shooting death of one of these young men. And I left the place and went home. Went home, not knowing if someone was even shot, because I would later learn that someone was actually shot and subsequently died. I would later learn that when the police arrived at my house. So you left before the altercation? No, I left during the altercation. Because I heard a gunshot. But I didn't look to see if somebody was shot. I just heard a gunshot, rolled out. And I didn't know if I didn't know who was shooting or if, in fact, I was the target of the shooter. Of course. I didn't know. So my main concern was my mother. So I went towards the front door looking for my arms because she was collecting their admission fee. And she wasn't there. I would learn about 10 seconds later, she was in my truck waiting on me. She hasn't left. So we left. And we headed home. When I got home, the guy who was at my house babysitting my two youngest siblings had told me that the detective, the St. Tammany detectives had called and wanted to question me about the shooting. It was at that moment. That's quick. It was at that moment. But we were talking about 45 minutes from where the place was to my house. And that was at that moment that I learned that there was an actual shooting. And that somebody was shot. And somebody had died. No, they hadn't died yet. So I had learned that there was a shooting. So by the time I was taken to the interrogation room, which was about a couple hours later, during the interrogation, the detective got somebody walked in the room and whispered something in his ear. And it was after that he told me that this is no longer an assault investigation. It's a murder. And so I was like, man, because the whole time I was in the interrogation room, my thought was like, man, I hope this person live. Yeah, of course. Because if they live, they're going to be able to tell them who shot him. Shot him, that's right. And when they didn't, man, I just, I was like, I knew that it was like, I knew that this it everything pointed towards me. This just looked funny. But it's crazy because when you're at a place where you have so many people around you would think that everybody, there's a lot of eyewitnesses. Everybody can say who did what and so. And there were any witness that that basically made any statements in my favor were silence, the pressure threatened. And every, anybody who, anybody who said anything that remotely sounded like there was a possibility of me, all of a sudden became 100% sure it was me. And you think that you were targeted because you were a public figure? Initially, no. No, initially I think that, well, let me say this, I'm an optimist, right? So I like to believe that people, I like to think that most people are doing what are doing or their initial approach is what they think is right. Yeah. Right? So I felt that initially they thought they were going to investigate the right person because I pulled a gun out in the club when I heard the shot. Okay. You see what I'm saying? And then I ran towards the door looking for my mom. So I think that, I think that witnesses told him he had a gun and he was running. So I think that when they came to get me, they thought they was arresting the right person. But somewhere in between the interrogation room and at some point during the interrogation, I believe that they realized they had the wrong person. Wow. And that's when the devil in the details showed his face. Of course. I think then it was like a matter of we have a famous person who has been broadcast all over world news that they've shot someone. And we are the ones who have given the information that this is the perpetrator. So they're covering her. We cannot go back and look stupid on the world stage saying that we arrested the wrong guy. So now what we got to do is we have to basically do what is necessary to stick these charges to him. No matter what, because this is bigger than him. This is about our department looking like it knows what it's doing. This is about the public having confidence in our department. Was it a DA or something that was definitely working on this case? It had to be one DA that was. Yeah, the DA name is Walter Reed at the time. He is now a convicted felon. He just got out of prison like last year. He was released early because of COVID. What was he convicted for? Wiretap fraud, couple of other things. He was shaking different entities down in the area they were paying him. How does that weigh on the cases that he, you know? Well, I think it should weigh heavily, but you know, this is a real heavyweight that you would have to be going up against. The sheriff who spearheaded the investigation, which led to my arrest and subsequent conviction, is now a convicted felon. He was convicted last year. He has four life sentences. The charges include rape, molestation, dating back to the 70s, incest, yeah, and the like. Ain't that something? Wow. Mm-hmm. They should pull up back every single case that all of these people tried. They won't. They won't do it because they know it would open the doors. And it would make their department look. The justice system not just. But it already making them look a certain way for these people to even get convicted for anything. But see, it looks that way momentarily. And they know that the average person in the detention span is so short. Oh, he got messed over, then it's gone. It's not in the news no more. If it's not in the news, no more is dead. So the thing is, I don't really blame those individuals as much as I blame us, the public, who entrust these individuals and who have a chance to vote. And we vote for these individuals because they may align for different reasons, multiple reasons. They might be our family. They might be our neighbor. But when we're giving them or we're voting someone in a job with the public trust, that is as important as the district attorney's office, we need to be certain that this person is just. But at the same time, if the information of them not being just isn't out there, and they put on that face to make it seem like we can trust them, and we don't know that we cannot. How can we vote otherwise if we don't know? Right. And that's a good point. But I would say, and I try to be as politically as correct as I can possibly be. But I'm going to just be raw. Go ahead. They be knowing these people. Yeah. Bottom line, these people be political allies. It's a good old boy and sister. Yeah, these people be aligned with them in their political views. And they don't care about if their views are, I would say, hurtful to people outside of our clique. It doesn't matter. Yeah, he does that. I don't care. I don't like them anyway. But Mac, how much time did they give you? We didn't get to that part. But I didn't mean to catch up. But I'm just trying to figure out when they convicted you. Yeah, I was convicted of manslaughter. And you, did you cop a plea? No. They gave you. The judge gave you. Yeah, I was convicted of. You said, I'm innocent all the way to the end. All the way to the end. Just like, yeah. I was actually charged with murder. I was facing a life sentence. But the jury came back in their deliberation with a manslaughter verdict. And a manslaughter in Louisiana carries zero to 40. I was given 30. And you tried appealing and all of that. Yeah, I tried everything. He ended up doing it. 21 years. And I was pardoned by the governor, by Governor Edwards. So thank you, America. Thank you. Thank you, Governor Edwards. It was. But I made all of that. One thing I wanted to know, because a lot of people, when you think about being wrongly convicted and that you are there, how angry were you when you were in prison? And how long did it take for you to get over that anger? Weird thing is, I probably was angry momentarily. Really? Momentarily. When I first got in that cell, there were a few things that I prayed for. It was a couple of things that I prayed for. And I'm not a big religious person, but I do pray what I have prayed and I do. One of them, the main thing was that I didn't want to become black. I didn't want to become black-hearted. I didn't want to become black-hearted. That was the main thing. And I didn't want to be bitter because I have seen what happens to bitter people. So my question to you is, why you were in prison? Were you angry? Because anybody in the right mind, wrongly convicted, would be angry out of their mind while they're in there. And if you were, how long did it take you to get over it? Initially, I was very angry initially. I deal with anger. Differently. Differently. I deal with it internally. I try my best not to display anger. I just kind of deal with it inwardly. And it's painful. I'm not a big religious person, but I do pray. And one of the things and most important things I prayed for while incarcerated was I prayed just to not be black-hearted. I didn't want to be bitter. I didn't want to be mad at the world because bitter is self-consuming. I mean, bitterness is self-consuming. And I didn't want to be that person that's just mad at the world because of what happened to me. Did you have children at that time? Yes, my son's mother was six months pregnant when I was arrested. So by the time I was convicted, my son was one almost two. Oh, so you were able to see him being born? No. Oh, no. Okay, you were. No. When I was arrested, she was six months pregnant. Okay. Because I didn't know if you came out of bond or anything like that. No, they denied bond every day. Oh, okay. In fact, just to back up, 10 days after my arrest, the person who actually did it confessed to it. He went to the officers and he confessed to it and told him he did it and told him why. Yeah, they said that they had reason to believe that he was lying. They never presented these reasons, but they had reason to believe that he was compensated for his confession by me and no limit. It's like, what can you and me and my lawyer, our argument was, what can you pay a man to go spend the rest of his life in prison? That doesn't even make any sense. We're not talking about this is my weed or this is my stolen goods. That's for me. That's not for them. No, we're talking about a person who confessed to killing an individual. So what did he say as the reason why he confessed? He said the guy broke a bottle and rushed him with the bottle and he said he shot him. So he's looking at self-defense. And that was part of the reason they said that he was lying. Their argument was that he's not only trying to get me off, he's trying to get himself off. Right. And I was like, I have never heard of anything like this before. And he confessed three times. Lie detector, they didn't try to do a lie detector? They probably did. But they also did a test on my hands for gunpowder residue. And found none? It found none. And the test kind of came up missing. Okay. You get convicted. You now you say the anger is not really just there, but then you get to go, you go to Angola. Where do you go to prison? Well, I went to, I spent most of my time at Elaine Hunt Correction Center. But when I left the Paris jail, they sent me up north to Concordia Parish facility. And then I stayed there for two years. Left there, went to Fort Wade, which is further up north. And I did like two weeks there because I had to go through processing. And then they sent me to a place called Winfield. I did two and a half years at Winfield. And then I was sent back down south to Elaine Hunt. And that's where I spent like 15 years at Elaine Hunt. I think I went to Angola for a week to get my two pulled. Wow. And I just, I just tried my best to make the best of my time in prison. I tried not to wallow in the sorrow of what happens. And I think, I think, you know, a lot of it has to do with just my upbringing. I just was never, my parents didn't raise us to be victims, you know. And it's painful as the situation was for me. I always tried to see the good in it or try to see, if not the good in it, see a light at the end of the tunnel. And then there were people around me who were in situations that I felt were far more worse than mine. Like there was a guy who I was incarcerated with at Hunt. He had been locked up 46 years for a rape that he didn't commit. He's out now. He was, they found DNA evidence to let him out. And, you know, it's, this man is in his 60s. Wow. But in the case like that, and they found DNA evidence to let him go. He, did he go back into the city? Well, if I am not mistaken and don't quote me on this, Louisiana has like a $200,000 or something cap on what you can get for wrongful convictions. That's it. That's it. They make sure that you, you can't really get nothing. And unfortunately, the people that wrongfully convict you are not held accountable. Dude, was this before the sea murder thing? It had to be before. Mine was like a year and a half before. So, but, but they started, they started rolling those around the same time though, the same way. When I say thinking of it, you dealing with the same court system? No. I was dealing with St. Tammany Parish. He was dealing with Jefferson Parish. Okay, cool. Which are not the same, but they are. You got no limit. They are too. And they, they all, you, these all rub shoulders. You know that, right? Right. And these are the two most, these are two of the most conservative parishes in Louisiana. Wow. Did you guys do time together? You mean? Yeah. In fact, I did the last couple of years I did that. Elaine Hunt, she was there with me. Cool. Well, how, how is he doing? And, you know, he's doing good, you know, see a fighter. Yeah. He's never going to give up his pursuit for freedom. And he shouldn't, you know, because he was done wrong. And, and, you know, they know he was done wrong. Just like in my situation, I think in situations like ours, they don't, they don't even be about the money for them. It's like what they can, the, the, the point they can prove is far more important than to them than what money you can spend with them as far as own lawyers and stuff like that. They use us, I think, to foster, to, to spread this, I'm tough on crime message. Here goes one of your heroes. And I'm going to show you that if he, if he get in trouble, I'm going to do him so seriously to make sure that none of y'all can think that. It's sort of like they use us as deterrents. Yeah. So do you? Exactly. So you say spirits is good. So that's a good thing. Just the conversations he been going now for years, man. Yeah. How long has he been gone? Like 20, like I was in there about 20, so he did. I did 21. He's about right at 29. And you say you weren't bitter in prison, but how was he? I was in spirits. Was he bitter like in the beginning stages when you? I'm pretty sure he went through the same stages we went through because we all, I think everybody, and you can probably attest to that. We all, you know, in the beginning. You feel like you got done wrong. Yeah. You, you, you know, you're mad. You feel like, man, how could this happen to you? You know, there were times I questioned God. Of course. Like, man, how could you let this happen to me? Yeah. Yeah. You know, but it eventually was like, okay, I got to the point where I was like, all right, now this prison could be hell for you, or it can be college campus. It's up to you. You make it what you want it to be. And I chose to make it my college campus. And I chose to learn and to do whatever I can do. Why you were in there? Yeah, I want to do everything that was constructive. Anything that can help me get in a better situation. And I like to win. I don't like to lose. So when I was, when I was there, I kind of started paying attention to the guys who were in similar situations as mine and who were getting free. And I just started following the trail they left because in prison, freedom is a win. So I don't like to lose. So I went to paying attention to them and just following that path that they was doing. So all of the other foolishness that people was doing to let out that anger they felt, that bitterness they felt. I mean, it wasn't helping you. It wasn't doing nothing, you know, other than telling people how you feel. And what's the feeling? You seem to be very humble and laid back type of person. But I know that, you know, I've heard a lot of stories from people who've been in prison. I know there's a lot of violence and guys and all of that. How were you able to survive during all of that and not being able to? Were you involved in any of those? Because from what I hear when you go, it's almost like you have to check in. You have to almost pick a side, all of that sort of things. Did that affect you when you went to prison? No. Prison is a weird place. Yeah, that is a true statement. America. Prison is a weird place. All right. So you have different prisons all over the country. And in Louisiana, we don't really, gangs aren't really big in Louisiana prisons. Louisiana has figured the prison thing out, if you ask me. See, when you isolate people and put them in a certain group, you almost kind of validate their gang. So Louisiana don't do that by the stick all y'all and it's done. And guess what? You're going to have to get along with each other. All y'all killers. So guess what? There is a unspoken code of respect. Because everybody knows the potential danger of the next man. Okay, it makes a lot of sense. We're in an open dome, no sales. 50-man tank car. Hundred and 20-man warehouse with just beds in it. So you're not about to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And go to your cell. And go to sleep. Because there ain't no walls to separate us. Wow. You threaten someone. Tell them you're going to do them this, that. You can't close your eyes. And then you wake up in the middle of the night and he's standing over your bed. Right. So it was like, that's why I said Louisiana this prison thing. They got to figure it out. They figured it out. So you had, some guys don't care. You know, you had violence. But if you mind your business and you did the right things in prison, I learned early on that you were able, I was able to evade much of the foolishness. Because the foolishness in prison centered around three things, gambling, drugs. I'm going to try to say this in the most political way. Try to find the right. He failed me. Yeah. I know exactly what it is. The other thing. That's what, yeah, the other thing. So those three things are what most of the violence centers around in prison. And if you are not involved in one of those three things, it's a good chance that your prison stay will be as bearable as possible. That's what, because I don't want to say smooth. I don't want to say good because nothing is good about. You can run into any situation. And you can run into any situation. You'll have your bumps in the road. But if you can avoid those things, it'll be bearable. He pretty much said mind your business. Yeah. Simply say it. And that's basically it. That's all it is. But did you end up have to cut off a lot of family when you got out? Because you know, sometimes you'd be gone so long and you would think that a lot of people would be down for you and hold you down while you're gone. But you realize who's really your friends, who is really your family, who is, you know what I mean? Did you have that problem so that when you came home, your circle that you had became a lot smaller? No. I started by saying I'm an optimist, right? I don't see things that way. I don't think anyone owe me anything. God, that's your time. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. I was giving that. I was always that type of child from a child who just, I take my responsibility. I take me. I'm my responsibility. Nobody else. I agree with that. And because so, I don't expect much from people. And I'm never disappointed because I don't have those expectations. I had to ask you this before we get off here. BG, did you ever get to do time with BG while you was gone? No, he was in the fair. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, he was. Yeah, I said, I'd seen him before he went to the fair. He been gone about 12, about 15 years. 15 years. Yeah, man. It's like a lot of rappers, man. Can't you, you know, it's almost like it's a target, not just through the judicial system, but within themselves, within the hip hop police. It's all kind of stuff here toward it, man. It was, I mean, and make no mistake about it. And let me say this, and just for the records before we go, I want, I don't ever want to come across as downplaying this experience or downplaying the injustices that exist within our judicial system, within our criminal justice system, and within law enforcement. I don't ever want to come across as downplaying the enormity of how it negatively affects certain groups of people. Our community, our culture. Right, certain cultures. Right. So that stuff is real, but just on an individual level, on a personal level, I feel that every person is in control of their destiny. And the way you see the world, the way you perceive it is what it is. Because we all define our own reality. Two people can look at the same thing. And guess what? Depending on how they view it. I mean, the way they, how they feel about it. Perception is everything. Perception is everything. If my partner and another guy get into a fight, this dude can beat the crap out of my partner. If I don't like the dude, I'm going to say, man, my partner was, was, was hurt already. He, I'm going to find a reason why my partner was in, in the right. All my partner can punch down a 80-year-old dude. And if you like your partner and you're on that end of it, you're going to the average person to be like, well, man, he shouldn't have did this or he did that. And that's what made, you know, because people just see things with their heart, not their eyes. But when you came home, you weren't able to file any lawsuits or anything like that? No, because I wasn't exonerated. Yeah. But just, you know, what are you planning to do now? What's the, what's the game? What's the end game now? What's the, what's the end thing that you are going to take care of, Mac? Like to, what are we doing? All right. The end game is to have peace of mind. That is the end game. I think that everything we do and we pursue in life is to try to get us a peace of mind. That's it. So for me, I love mentoring. Okay. So what I do now is I have a, I work with kids with a certain organization, with two organizations, actually. And one of them is an after school program. Well, you know, we do a lot of workshops for kids, teaching them, just trying to give them the opportunities that didn't exist when we were kids. Another organization, and that one is called Yep, the youth empowerment project. Another organization I work with is called Son of a Saint. It's for fatherless boys. Okay. And I'm passionate about that one because through mentoring and prison, one of the things that I realized was about 80% of the young men that came to my class that were under the age of 23. Was fatherless. Was fatherless. And these were all prisoners. These were all young men between 18 and 23 years old, and 80% of them were fatherless. And in fact, I used to ask every class, might be 30 people, I'd be like, yo, how many of y'all got a father? And you're like, three of them might raise their hand. So I realized early on that, you know, I realized in the neighborhood as a kid that there was something different about me and my friends who did have their father and the guys who didn't. I want to, I guess I'm going to end it. But just as far as Manning Fresh, as far as Master P, as far as all these known name people, have you spoken to them since you've been home? And basically, what are those conversations like? Oh, man, it's just love. For me, with anybody, it's just a mutual respect. When I first got out, Manning took me out to eat. You know what I mean? That's kind of stuff. I mean, when you get out the first day out of series, for me. Because everything changed. Everything is not the same anymore. What had changed so much? That's another thing. Like, what was the biggest difference? It's always cell phones. It's always cell phones. That's social media, man. The phones were flipping when I left the street. Yeah, that's right. And you can chirp on them. Yeah. Man, I don't even know what this is. My wife had to take care of the phone for me. Like, social media, I have people be seeing me. They be like, man, I DM'd you. What's the DM? How? What does that work? In fact, I was so computer illiterate. No, I'm going to say social media. Social media illiterate. That my wife had to tell me that Willi D had sent me a message after I did the podcast with them. And I had that. Shout out, Willi D. I had to shout out to Willi D, man. I enjoyed my time there. And what's so crazy is I had to message him and Scarface to tell them that I just realized what I was doing. And Willi just hit me back with a bunch of crying laugh and emotions. Because I was like, man, I don't know what I'm doing, man. I didn't even know how to check this. So did you even have... You didn't... Did you know them guys personally when you left? You didn't know those guys, did you? No. Correct. But when you came home, they reached out to you because they know your story. Yeah, the story. They are. And you know, I mean, I grew up fans of the Ghetto Boys. Of course, me too. It was a no-brainer when they were like, you know, the Ghetto Boys won't join your podcast. They're like, I'm going over there. You come to Dallas, too. We bring you up to Dallas. I got to show you some love. In fact, I think what was the best thing that I... Well, one of the highlights of my time there at their podcast because it wasn't the best. It was a lot of things I enjoyed. But I asked Scarface once we finished. You had your own fan on me, didn't you? Yeah, I told him. I told him, I said, man, I know you play instruments. I said, let's jam. So I grabbed the bass, he grabbed the guitar, and we just jammed out. That's dope. We ain't really... Because you should have recorded that. A lot of people... It was just for me. A lot of people don't know that Scarface is so into the producing. Mr. Lee talked about that on our show. He was like, man, Scarface... Because they play golf together, big golfers. And he was like, man, Scarface, good at golf. But man, people don't know who he is. He can produce, man. He can rap, but he got so many attributes to him. That's dope, man. How did that make you feel to jam out with him? Well, cool. I just wanted to be able to tell my grandkids we jammed. Man. So how is it going on that podcast? I see him, I love that movement. But Willie D was already doing stuff. I think it's like he pulled Scarface into it in my mind. Because Willie D was on it early on. Well, Willie has always been outspoken. And those kind of people, people like Willie D are going to always be leaders in the community. Because they're unapologetic and unafraid. And those are the kind of people that we need as leaders in our community. Well, let me tell you something here from Texas, man. Them boys right there, they made us look a different way. I felt my spirit through them guys. Like, because they were known from Texas. Like, yeah, we from Texas. It meant something when you seen Willie D and when you seen Scarface. And when you seen Jay Prince, man. We knew that we were special. And that helped us. Even I know P and y'all impacted down here. And we so close, man. The boot ride by Texas. So it's Texas, it's Texas to Louisiana, Louisiana, Texas. I told you where I'm from. I'm five miles from Louisiana. I like how big the houses is in Texas for the money. Yeah, that's awesome. Man, see out there, you can get a big house for a couple of hours. And it looks nice. It's very nice and spacious. The land is spacious. Yeah, so that's what I love about Texas. Thank you for coming on our show, man. Man, like I said. Did we leave anything out? Is everything? I think we are. How did we do? We let him do it. Oh, that would be great. We let him do it. He done it. Y'all did great. Now, me, America, I didn't do too well. Man, please, man. But I enjoyed it so much. Your spirit is so, it's dope, man. And I hope when you come to Dallas, you're going to come by our set. So you can come by our location, man. And we'll set all that up, too. And we'll do it. You'll get his number in exchange. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going to bring y'all bump up. Y'all got to come to my spot, you know what I'm saying? Thank you so much for coming on our show, man. It's been a blessing to meet you on our anniversary, man. On your anniversary. On your happy anniversary, too. Y'all, if I'd have had a piano here on the PowerPoint. That's all right. We're going to get you. We're going to get you. So are you going to be doing shows and doing a little thing, too? Yeah, yeah. Y'all see me. Oh, and before I go, let me make sure I say this. I have a new album coming out. That's what I'm talking about. Memorial Day. It is called Son of the City. So you got to come to Dallas, man. At some point, you got to market yourself now. Get through the East. I still don't know how to use that term, man. So you got to publish this for that. That's what she's going to do. So you're going to have to get it. But when y'all mark it in and y'all come on the show, when y'all debut, when is it coming out? Memorial Day. That's when I'm recording. That's coming up, man. Yeah. Yep. You excited? Am I? This is like, this album is... Like you come back. Well, this album is a dream come true for me. It's real personal, and it's finally me doing it the way I've always wanted to do it. Can't wait to hear it. Thank you so much, man. You're a blessing, man. We love you here on Boss Talk 101. I thank y'all at Boss Talk. Man, you family now. You can't get out of it. Yeah, well, you know... You got to meet the kids and everybody else. I'm one of them family members that kind of show up and be like, what y'all got to eat? We going to feed you. She's the maker, man. Come on, man. Stop playing, man. Say, man, it's been another great segment of Boss Talk 101 with a Boss Talk. And we out. And we out.