 Welcome and thank you for joining the New America Fellows program for this webinar discussion of Jude Jaffee Block and Terry Green-Sterling's Driving While Brown show our Pio versus the Latina resistance. I'm a we still you directed the fellows program for more than 20 years, New America has supported hundreds of fellows who have gone on to publish books, produce documentary documentary films and other deeply reported projects. We're grateful to be able to host this conversation with you today as we welcome Jude and Tracy to New America for a timely and necessary conversation about immigration reform. Before we start a few housekeeping notes. If you have questions during the event, please submit them through the Q&A function at the bottom of your screen, and we'll pass them to the moderator. If you need close captioning zoom now provides that function. Please click the CC bar button at the bottom of the screen. We encourage you to sign up for our newsletter and events list so that you can learn more about our work and receive invitations for future fellows program events, and you can find the information on our website. And last and most importantly copies of Driving While Brown are available for purchase through our bookselling partner Salad State Books. You can find the tiny URL link on the event slide on your screen. Before I turn the conversation over to John, Jude and Terry, let me introduce you to our speakers today. Joffie Block joined the Associated Press as a reporter and editor in 2020. Before that she reported on immigration for more than a decade for outlets that include MPR, The Guardian, and the Arizona Center for Investigative Reporting. She was a visiting journalist at the Russell Sage Foundation and also fellow with us at New America through a partnership with the Center for Future of Arizona. She was also a Logan on Fiction program fellow while co authoring this book. She began her journalism career in Mexico. Terry Green-Stirling is affiliated faculty and writer-in-residence at the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism at Arizona State University. She's the author of Illegal. Her writing is in publish in The Washington Post, The Rolling Stone, Newsweek, The Atlantic, Slate, The Daily Beast, and other publications. She's edited at large for the Arizona Center for Investigative Reporting and a three-time Arizona journalist of the year. Jonathan Blister, who will be moderating today's conversation, is a 2021 Emerson fellow with us at New America. He's also a staff writer at The New Yorker. He has a work on a book about immigration and Central America for Pen and Press. Jonathan is a recipient of an Edward R. Murr Award and a National Award for Education Reporting. In 2018 he received the Immigration Journals and Prize from the French American Foundation and a Media Leadership Award from the American Immigration Lawyers Association. With that, I'll turn the conversation over to Jude and Terry, and they'll start us off with a brief five-minute presentation about their work. Thank you. Do we have the slideshow up? I can't tell. Yes. Hi, this is Terry. And I just very briefly, we have a very brief slideshow for you. Driving While Brown is a book about a powerful Arizona sheriff, and he's known throughout the world for his immigration crackdowns. Because he famously bullies or retaliates against critics, few in Arizona have the courage to stand up to him. The system of checks and balances breaks down. So what it takes is a fearless Latino resistance to rise up against him and fight him and try to stop him, as well as other civil rights abuses that are going on at the time, including Arizona laws, new Arizona laws that are meant to criminalize and deport immigrants. Please. And so we have just a few slides to introduce you to some of the people that are featured in the book. And Sheriff Joe Arpaio, a former Sheriff Joe Arpaio was elected in 1992 and became known as America's toughest sheriff and actually built a national profile for his tough on jail inmates tactics and so his inmates had to sleep in outdoor tents or sentence inmates did they had they were forced to wear pink underwear where black and white stripes. There were also wrongful death lawsuits that reveal that some inmates have been had died and restraint chairs or after teasing events. And next slide. And then in the 2000s, in the mid 2000s, Arpaio pivots to become really the country's most famous immigration enforcer and we'll talk about that pivot more in our presentation. But immigration themed traffic stops that led to the arrests of undocumented drivers and passengers who were turned over to ice for deportation was a major part of this strategy. Next slide. Briefly, we'd like to introduce you to Lydia Guzman. She is one of the members of the Latino resistance who is a key character in our book. As our pile ramps up his immigration enforcement. She ramps up her activism, which creates a lot of tension in her life. And she pays a very high price for for her activism personally. Next slide please. Okay, and I'd also like to introduce you to Carlos Garcia. He is an undocumented he is was once an undocumented immigrant so he takes this. Arpaio's actions very personally, and he helps organize daring protests that force Arizona and the nation, not to look away. Next slide, please. And the final slide this is Danny or take another member of the of the resistance will be discussing. But we wanted to share this one because it gets to why we titled the book driving while Brown. This is a reference, not just to the racial profiling episodes that happened under our piles immigration enforcement, but also a reference to the long history of immigration theme traffic stops in Arizona, over, over the past several years. And so, for example, in the 1970s, there was a police department outside of Phoenix that was cracking down on farm workers and pulling them over and asking them for to show papers. And Daniel Ortega was a young man at the time he was born in the United States, but the son of a farm worker, and he explained to us how those kinds of tactics felt like an attack on him. People were being stopped because they were Brown driving while Brown. So we thought saw this not only as an attack on the undocumented community. We saw it as an attack on us simply because of the features of our skin and our hair color and our language. And that concludes our slide show. Well, thank you both for that. And, and congrats to you both. Again, I know I've already congratulated you hardly separate from this conversation on the book. It's a real achievement, and it's, it's so critically important. I mean, rereading it. I'm so struck by how much the Arpaio story isn't really just a microcosm of what's happened in the US over the last few decades. I mean, it is, it is literally the center of that story. I mean, I say that without exaggeration. So I want to launch right in and I want to hear everything you both have to say about what you've uncovered in years of reporting on this. And I guess my first question in some ways follows from that slide show because you know for someone like me who followed this, more or less from afar, and for other people who were tuned in to this story as a kind of national story, Joe Arpaio very much arrived on the scene as this sort of ready made image of a tough anti immigrant lawman. And so one of the things that struck me in the early parts of your book was actually getting the backstory about how he wasn't necessarily always that person. Or he was always kind of this snarling media obsessed unscrupulous sheriff, fine. But the particular anti immigrant animus seemed to start much later in his career in the early 2000s. And I want to, I want to ask you about kind of what your sense was of when and why that turn happened in his career. And, you know, even just to set it up, you know, I was I was looking back over some of the things he said as you cite in the book. And, you know, there was one instance in 2005 of essentially a vigilante arresting a bunch of undocumented immigrants at gunpoint. And it caused a major scandal and you guys can talk more about this. But at the time or Pio said, and this is a direct quote, we should never take the law in our own hands, you don't pull a gun on people because they look like they're here illegally. I'm sorry, my wildest dreams attribute that quote to Joe Arpaio. And yet that was Joe Arpaio at a particular moment in time, before he made this shift. So talk to me a little bit about kind of when in his career this shift happens and how you understand it. So it really tied to that event. This vigilante who who held the group of migrants at gunpoint at a rest stop on the outskirts of Maricopa County that happened in 2005, and it quickly became a flashpoint. So, our Pio's deputies arrested this man, the quote you read was our Pio defending that decision. The reason he had to defend that decision was because there was an outcry from people, mostly in the Republican Party, who were worried about illegal immigration who saw this, this stop of these migrants at gunpoint they saw this, this man whose name was Patrick Hab as an American hero who had performed a citizen's arrest and should be praised, not jailed, and, and the county attorney at the time had run in for on a platform where he had lawn signs that said stop illegal immigration vote, Andy Thomas for county attorney this is county attorney is a local, it's the equivalent of a DA, and this is a local prosecutor who ran on a stop illegal immigration platform for local office which was pretty unprecedented and had not considered to be a local issue or had not been at the time. And so this county attorney seized on this fervor that was happening, and announced he would not be pressing charges against Patrick Hab, who had held them at gunpoint. And it really showed the potency of this, this rising movement who wanted to really do something about illegal immigration and wanted elected officials to join that cause and our Pio took a lot of heat for his role for being on the wrong side of that issue. This is actually the second time in 2005 that he found himself on the wrong side of sort of his base his own what who would become his base, so views on immigration there was another episode where he helped an undocumented woman, go, go to Mexico and come back after her children were kidnapped, her US citizen children were kidnapped. That was also something that our Pio did and said look I'm going to help these US citizen kids and this family stay together and other people question why is this undocumented woman getting this this special treatment. So, what we see is after this outcry over the Hab event. Arizona State Legislature also begins passing laws, the first of which is into takes effect in 2006, and our Pio partners with the very county attorney who he'd been on opposite sides with to interpret a new lot. In ways that even the legislature hadn't imagined, and really goes above and beyond so there had been this law that said that smugglers who are driving migrants into Arizona can be charged with felonies, a state felony for doing that. So, our Pio and the county attorney decide that they can charge the migrants themselves with felonies for participating in a conspiracy to smuggle themselves, which goes beyond what the lawmakers had intended, but this is part, this is just 2006 are Pio's real pivot is taking place and he emerges as someone who's not only enthusiastically enforcing state laws, but even going above and beyond what the intent of those laws were and that's really when we start to see his shift and in 2007 it ramps up even more when he gets a partnership with the federal government through the 287 G program, but I think we quickly see how the political winds are changing in Arizona that that certain voters are demanding this of their elected officials, and, and he responds to that. And let me direct a question to Terry, that's related to that which is, you know, tell me again focusing on this period I mean we'll get to the stuff in 2000 later 2006 2007 with the agreements with the federal government which is a huge part of the story obviously. But just to understand a little bit more this pivot of his because it's incredibly striking I mean it's done in plain sight. He basically more or less overnight rebrands himself as sure you're kind of run of the mill colorful tough on crime sheriff to someone who is specifically animated by anti immigrant sentiment and policing. Where are the criticisms of of our pie with that time coming from who's he, who's he hearing what clearly it's striking to me because he's pretty popular even at that time. And despite his popularity, he's still sensitive enough to whatever this kind of nascent right wing sentiment is that he rebrands himself accordingly so Terry tell us a little bit about kind of where the criticisms coming at that time and what that what that shows us about the state. Okay, let me just throw in a couple of thoughts first. So I think it's really important for us not to diminish his early years as sheriff in the jails because there were many civil rights abuses and the Justice Department was looking at it and it started, it kind of fits into a pattern of picking on the voiceless on those who who have no power to fight back. So, really, his personality shows who not only in the jails, but also when he pivot so he's pivoting politically but he's not pivoting his personality, right. We can't diminish the guy ever because serious things happen in the jails and so okay so the criticism comes in the form of newspapers, newspapers to the editor. And it's really important to note that our pile seeks approbation and self identifies with how much how much press he gets. And so when he sees people that he knows support him start criticizing him and letters to the editor in newspapers, which are so very important to him. And then that explains basically what he does that these people are letter to the editor writers right. You know they they're they're mostly elderly or they're angry they're they're people in this nascent movement they're getting a lot of misinformation about immigrants that they want to believe, because they're uncomfortable with changing demographics. You asked about what was changing in Arizona at the time. We had the funnel effect that that we all talk about in journalism in which corridor immigration corridors in California and Texas and New Mexico are pretty much sealed off. And the thinking is that the Arizona desert is so harsh that no one's that it's its own wall, but in fact sealing off these, these corridors ends up having the immigrants coming through Arizona. And this causes a lot of unrest with folks who are not used to seeing so many brown people in Arizona. And I do want to flag that from, you know, this is something that we asked our pile about this pivot moment and to this day he, he, he remains steadfast that he did the right thing about Patrick have the vigilante and won't does not see that as a mistake or won't speak about it as a mistake. So he stands firm on those comments that that you read and still echoes them today which is interesting. I will say that, that what changed was the state law that that once the state laws started to change it was his duty to enforce it. But as we point out he really goes above and beyond what's, what's written in the law and, and takes unprecedented steps and trailblazes really a new trail for local law enforcement and immigration so it does seem like there are, you know, it, it does seem to suggest that's that. Yeah, and let's talk about that state law because it's it's it's such a key moment in his political development. And I'm struck even just hearing, I mean, reading your descriptions of the law, and even hearing your quick characterization now by by how much that law ends up anticipating and foreshadowing things that honestly we've been hearing over the last few years. So, so tell us about this human smuggling law. And specifically, I mean you say our pie goes above and beyond in enforcing and enforcing it. But it does seem to me one thing that has to be sort of reckoned with about that law is that it was signed into the bill was signed into law by a Democratic governor. I'm going to talk to Donna, who's someone who will obviously be following through the course of the story because she winds up, you know, being Obama's first DHS secretary. How aware should Democrats have been about the kind of true nature of that human smuggling law. Lay it out for us, what did the law say, how did it get perverted. And so the law, I mean they called it the anti coyote law, the Arizona human smuggling law it actually sort of we had trouble with it because it couldn't kind of find its official name it got branded a few different ways, but but basically it says that if you, if you drive someone from the border into Arizona and they're found to be migrants who've just crossed the border, you can be charged with a felony for driving them. And so that was the intent of the live pass with bipartisan support. And there was this whole kind of the debate at the time when legislators were talking about it, I mean there were speakers who were concerned about trafficking and women who were accused and how this would crack down on the criminals who were taking advantage of undocumented people and putting them in danger and I mean that was really the rhetoric around it at the time. And, and at the time we did find some comments where there was a Latino lawmaker Ben Miranda who did voice some concern and said, wait a second. It would be perverted so that if you have, you know somebody driving their undocumented neighbor to a doctor's appointment, like at what where do we how do we distinguish, you know who's a smuggler coming from the border versus somebody in a mixed status family and where are those lines and so that that concern was raised but it was very peripheral at the time and not really thought much of but then when this new interpretation comes out that the people in the cars can be charged with some of the lawmakers who were behind it actually spoke out and said that's not, that was not what we intended and and there's the coalition that we write about in the book the resistance. And their first acts is actually to help fuel a lawsuit to challenge this interpretation of charging the migrants with conspiracy to smuggle themselves as our pilot is doing, and it's a federal case. That is filed like in 2006 or seven. It's not resolved until 2013, when finally a judge says, Oh, this policy is not constitutional. And it, it's a sign of how slowly the courts can move and how many people were impacted by that policy in the meantime I'll take a little break. And let me just, I mean, Terry, I want to hear your thoughts too but but to sort of follow in which you'd saying, give us a give give people who are listening here, a kind of concrete sense of the mechanics of how this perverted interpretation of the law played out. I mean, we're talking about the ugliest forms and the most brazen and naked forms of racial profiling. What kind of stuff did you hear from people about how the human smuggling law became interpreted and implemented by our pile and his and his people. Well, I mean, first of all, I think the Democrats that, you know, it's a very red state the state has is very red, and it's got a lot of rural, very powerful rural lawmakers. And I think they, I think the rhetoric bamboozle the Democrats. I think they just, you know, fell asleep at the wheel sort of weren't thinking right, because they were listening to the rhetoric but not what it might do. Our pile. This is important. Our pile is a former DEA guy, and he likes to book people on conspiracies he's a big conspiracy guy goes into. The houses conspiracy theories. So basically what happens is our pile in the county attorney. Get together and decide they can arrest the migrants in these big vans for conspiring to smuggle themselves into Arizona. So that's basically the note of it. What happens is they stop these vans and trucks or whatever they are, and arrest everybody and charge them charge most of them with these felonies, which are deportable. And that's a whole point. Yeah. And then what's interesting about I mean so once he starts this human smuggling unit to go after migrants. Tell us about that unit by the way just lay it out for people. Yeah, so that like this dedicated unit is formed that does what they call interdiction which is driving on rural roads outside of Maricopa County looking for load, what they call load vehicles that have large numbers of migrants in them. But at a certain point the strategy shifts from sort of these outskirts and people who have just coming from the border to enforcement that's happening inside urban parts of the of the county where more established, like long term immigrant populations are could be pulled over by traffic stops. And so the deputies who are trained in this sort of rural interdiction are the same ones who then are swarming urban neighborhoods in these kind of shock and awe sweeps that are pio implements and so the idea with these sweeps is that the deputies will flood certain neighborhoods, pull over cars for any kind of traffic violation broken tail light cracked windshield failure to signal. And then in, in our pile has announced these in advance to the media and said any anybody with an outstanding warrant anybody who who we think is guilty of criminal charges, and any undocumented immigrants or he doesn't quite use that terminology. They will be arrested and turned over to ice. And so what you have is a situation where deputies who are kind of in this mindset that they are hunting migrants who and turning them over to ice because this is their training in the human smuggling unit, are also in these, these urban areas doing these massive sweeps where they're pulling over cars, and then they have a car and a passenger and a driver and they're going to be asking for ID and trying to establish if that person has legal status to be in the country. Now, you both point out in the book that, you know, under this human smuggling law and these wild reinterpretations of what that empowers are pio and his human smuggling unit to do his his office, I mean, is arresting hundreds of immigrants at a time. And in 2007, you have a federal component to what our pie was allowed and able to do. And that is a collaboration with the federal government with immigration with the federal immigration authorities, these are known as 287 G agreements which we're going to ask you about very specifically, but you make the point in the you know you go from basically hundreds of arrests at a time which is hellish and nightmarish enough to quite literally thousands that this really kind of brings our pie into his own. Tell us about the 287 G agreements, because those agreements aren't I mean, extensively and this is so interesting in your book. This isn't a figment of the kind of right wing restrictionist movement I mean you eventually have even the Obama administration a few years in line, continuing these agreements. So, so tell us what these agreements are and how our pie makes use of them. And that these agreements first can come online, right after 911 is when these discussions of this happens and I think there's some recognition of, oh, if local law enforcement had been more involved in immigration matters, maybe some of the hijackers could be discovered sooner if we had more if only we'd had more collaboration, there's some of these discussions at play. And so the first agreement start getting signed in, in really the second half of the Bush, W Bush administration. Andrew is is pretty early on 2007 there's he's not the first but he's the first really big agreement he has over 100 of people in his office who who are signed on to this and it's a mix of both his deputies who are patrolling the streets and his officers who are in the jail, and the in the jail, it means that his officers can use an ice database to check if anybody who's been booked into the jail might be undocumented or has been deported before or might be an illegal immigrant who is now charged of a crime that might make them deportable all of this information is now the fingertips about whether somebody could be now potentially deportable or could be placed in deportation proceedings. What's, what's really key here though is the, the deputation of those who are patrolling the streets who now have federal immigration powers and they go through a training from ice. To learn sort of the basics of immigration enforcement and the 277 g fact sheet that we found from the time makes clear that this partnership is supposed to be to discover so called criminal aliens, people who have committed crimes who might be in gangs, and identify those who might be deported, and the fact sheet just specifically says it is not intended to be used to round up day laborers, or to be used for minor in minor traffic violations. And that is exactly what we see happening under our piles use of this program. And it's also worth noting that ice is the one that trains are pyos deputies through this 287 g training that when they're deciding that making a calculus of who to question about immigration status. And there's a suspicion that someone might be undocumented and sort of how to lie, how to choose when to go into those kinds of questions that Mexican appearance can be one factor when deciding who to question, as long as it's not the only factor and that that's there is a Supreme Court precedent that does say that in the ninth circuit the ninth circuit had updated that to say actually in areas that are have a heavy Latino population. That's really a very outdated tool and should not be used. And so that ends up being part of the eventually when our pyos sued for racial profiling a federal judge finds that that training and the fact that some of his deputies had retained that understanding from the training was one of the indications that that racial profiling had taken place. Before I come to you Terry because I have, you know, a million follow up questions to that it was great. I do want to I do want to read a brief passage from the book because you know one of the one of the really striking things about the book I mean just reported a reporter here. I'm floored by how much grounds you cover over such an extended period of time I mean, I mean the sheer number of people you talk to from every side of the issue really creates this incredible mosaic effect so I want I want people tuning in to get a little sort of kind of what some of the the horror was on the streets of Arizona during during this time when you had the combined effect of the human smuggling law when you had the reality of these 287 g agreements. Obviously in the book there are so many tragic examples I can draw from I picked one that I thought was particularly visceral. And so it's about a man named Daniel logos, who's, who's Mexican by birth. He's in his mid 60s at the time of this scene that I'm about to read. And he is a US citizen. And so here's I'm kind of jumping around a little bit because it's a long passage. They say, my goes a small man with neat closely cropped gray brown hair and dark intelligent eyes had gained his American citizenship, more than 40 years earlier, after immigrating from Mexico legally as a child. So he didn't expect to use the hotline himself and just for everyone's awareness, we'll talk about this hotlines is basically a really incredible resource that that activists created led led in this case by by a woman will work here much more about. He finished one morning in December 2009, when my goes and his wife Eva, who would come along to keep him company headed from their home to a job at an apartment building in South Phoenix. Out of the corner of his eye, my goes could see the tall watch tower hovering over the tent city jail, this is our Pios kind of trademark jail, a landmark of sorts that signals to locals that a sprawl of Maricopa County Sheriff's Office jails and administration are nearby. My goes turned left onto a straight wide lane of Durango Road. There wasn't a lot of traffic just landscaping trucks pulling trailers laden with grass clippings and tree branches. The trucks were likely drive and driven by Latino landscapers heading to a nearby landfill, my goes new. He driven this road many times, but on this day, he would come to realize that the abundance of landscaping trucks in route to the dump and the proximity to the dump made this area an excellent hunting ground for deputies in search of unauthorized Latino immigrants, almost done it. He had rolled down his window before making the turn onto Durango Road, only to lock eyes with a sheriff's deputy driving past him in the opposite lane. The deputy Dan Russell turned around and flashed his police lights. He was soon realized he was the target. He drove past a cornfield and in some industrial buildings and pulled over to the side of the road near an abandoned farmhouse with a rickety chicken coop. He wondered why the deputy wasn't getting out of his vehicle. He and Ava who had no reason to mistrust the police got out of their truck to see what he wanted. The deputy jumped out shouting and gripping his holstered gun. Magos and Ava scrambled back into their truck and Magos feared that if you question the deputies authority, you might get shot. So this is the reason I read that passage at such length. First of all, I mean the writing is fantastic and what a moment, but this is an American citizen who is pulled over because of his appearance. And because of how emboldened these, these sheriff's deputies have become in this landscape. I want to shift the conversation a little bit and Terry lead us off here, because you made this point in your opening, in your opening slideshow. I want to talk about the resistance, the Latino resistance that forms in response to all of this. And, you know the thing and I was struck by Terry saying this and this comes through of course in the book. The people who, the few people who had the courage to face up to our pie at this time were the people who actually had the most to lose. It's quite an incredible story of courage and fortitude in the face of a very real risk. Tell us who I mean tell us a little bit about, about Lydia Guzman about Carlos Garcia the kind of different strands of this resistance as they take shape because this story that I just read from Daniel Magos is the result of him calling a tip line that some of these activists have created to help protect members of their community. Right. Well, it's important, I think, for us to recognize that this resistance is built upon decade upon decade of discrimination against Mexican immigrants and Mexican American citizens in the in Arizona. And so, resistance is not new to the Latino community in Arizona it's been happening since at least the 1930s. And this one is is, in my view it becomes kind of a model for resistance against unconstitutional policing in the United States, because it has many facets to it and then I'll get into the characters but just very briefly. The resistance becomes a multi pronged approach to bring attention to the problem constantly in the streets in these civil and these actions that you can't turn your head away from because they're so colorful, and they're so lively. The second, the second point is the courts. The third is the public square and that goes, you know, along with the resistance in the streets because this brings journalists attention to the problem and then then the people in the resistance have voice in the media. And the final thing is in the voting booth, the resistance registers all these voters, Lydia Guzman. The tension between Lydia Guzman and Joe Arpaio, I think, carry us through the book a lot, because either one is on topic, you know, one person either Arpaio has a victory or Lydia has a victory, which causes immense problems for the other one, right. So Lydia Guzman was a California activist who was galvanized by Prop 187 in California. She came to Arizona right at the top right after some raids and Chandler some immigration raids and Chandler in the 90s. And she, she immediately joins, it becomes an activist and ultimately, she has, as Arpaio's immigration enforcement ramps up, she starts, she gets funding for a hotline that serves as a social services network and also serves as a way to gather plaintiffs for a lawsuit. She pays an enormously high price for her activism that includes marital problems, problems with her kids, losing a house, huge financial problems, but she can't, because she's out in the streets getting names and information about these people who are arrested, she can't turn away. So she's always torn. And her story shows the story, the, the impact of activism on families, on the families of the activists, right, because it's, it's consuming the Carlos Garcia grew up. That allows you quickly while you're talking. I'm very curious to hear about Carlos Garcia. Let me just remind everyone who's listening. Please send questions as you're hearing all this because if there are particular things that that Terry or Judah saying that spark questions or further thoughts I can pick up your questions at the end so bear that in mind as you're listening. Keep going Terry sorry. Okay, so Carlos Garcia. He and I have have have some roots in the same town and in Sonora so so that that was really great for me. Carlos Garcia was and grew up undocumented in the United States during his childhood grew up in the streets. It had a wonderful mother, a single mom. He goes to the university and becomes involved with Mecha and begins learning about Mexican American history and gets a lot of courage, a lot of outrage, and this leads him to become a young activist in in college in the university. And then goes on to help with voter outreach and organize, you know, students in marches and ultimately he becomes this magnificent leader of these, not leader, because he would say he's not a leader he does it with everybody it's communal, but his group orchestrates magnificent street actions that that are very theatrical that are very Mexican American very Mexican, lots of music, lots of bravery because undocumented people leave themselves vulnerable to getting arrested. So this brings press attention to the problem, and this gives voice to the other activists. So those are two of our favorite characters. Oh, Jude you got your muted I think. Okay great I just wanted to piggyback on that to, to highlight the contrast between them because this resistance is multifaceted and does not always agree and there are factions and so Lydia, Lydia is a faction that is invested in institutions she's always trying to get the Department of Justice involved. She believes in Democrats and the Democratic Party delivering immigration reform. She is willing to partner with in make broad coalition so she's actually hired by a local businessman to run this hotline and she's always trying to find common cause and make the coalition the tent broader. Whereas Carlos Garcia, I think is is skeptical of such relationships is worried about. Do we really have the same interests as as the business community at the end of the day if we're trying to protect our people from deportation and and have them work with dignity. He's very much in invested in empowering people who have been victimized by our piles policies to be part of the activism to unseat him from office and putting their stories forward and having them be involved in direct action civil disobedience. And so we see this, we see how in the end it's sort of a combination of many different facets that come together that all have a common goal but different ways of achieving it. I mean it's so striking you'd expect in any robust healthy dynamic activist movement for there to be different kind of factions and different philosophies and approaches toward the activism. But it really does seem and I'm really struck by this reading the book that it took quite literally all of these different players. I mean if it were just one approach, the overall effect really would have been muted and would not have been as successful. So you've got the you know the court approach of documenting all of these civil rights abuses. I'm leaving out and we could talk for days and days about this, but all of the examples I mean really over the top examples of abuse of authority by our Pio and his people I mean actually to the extent of their intimidating people, including local and state officials who speak out or even investigate improprieties in their office. So part of the activist work is documenting all of this and Lydia kind of represents, let's say that particular strain obviously they're all doing everything at once. Carlos is is has his eyes to on the need to kind of identify federal hypocrisy a bit in how you have the Obama administration at the time, sort of extensively pulling away from our Pio yet nevertheless continuing those 287 G agreements in the form of secure communities and other related programs. But in the end, and this is sort of my last question for you both before we go to questions because there are a lot of very good questions. You know, our Pio is mired in all of these lawsuits federal investigations and so on which, Jude, as you say, kind of inches along I mean it's agonizing to read in the book because as these as these as these investigations inch along people's lives are in the balance. And it does seem to have a kind of cumulative effect on him that is not not to be sort of to flippin about it but is sort of bruising politically to him into his brand. And so it starts to impact his standing. When it comes time for him to stand for reelection which he does for all of this. And so in 2012, he wins again but by a much smaller margin than he's used to and you can kind of almost smell blood in the water. He culminates against all of his opponents at his actual victory speech. And then in 2016, quite profoundly I would say the same day that Donald Trump is elected. He loses. So, I guess, if there are any kind of global thoughts you have on sort of what if anything did him in. There were kind of lessons there were to how this approach kind of brought him low enough to make him almost mortal and politically vulnerable again after all these years of complete, you know, unaccountability. So kind of a global, a global summary of that before we go to questions. And Terry hit on this this kind of four pronged approach of protesting in the streets, the public square, the, the courts and the voting booth and we really see these come together in 2016. So, the fact that people like Lydia Guzman recruited people like Daniel Magos to become plaintiffs in the racial profiling lawsuit against our pile. And that there was a finding against our pile of racial profiling, and then he disobeyed court orders and then was was being charged criminally for that which is of course the reason he gets pardoned by for Trump we've done remarkably well by not talking up until this point, but it's a big part of the story. And so, by the time he's up for reelection in 2016 he's cost taxpayers millions and millions of dollars and that becomes a talking point in the campaign. And what you start to see is not only the resistance galvanizing communities of color to vote and try to vote him out. You also have a situation where some moderate Republicans who are willing to kind of go along with our pile over the years, start to realize, you know, this is, this is bad branding for our community that he's gone too far. This is costing us too much, we just need a boring sheriff, which is really the Democrat who unseat some campaigns is like, no one outside of our county will know my name, I promise. And so it's really trying to, to get that celebrity idea out of there and what's interesting is, our pile loses but he, he fund raises $13 million that raised from his fans all over the country and at the same time is stumping for Donald Trump on the campaign trail. I mean, this, this mix of on the one hand he's on the stage at the Republican National Convention. And on the other hand he's losing his own, his own local election. Yeah, so well said I mean again, as you say I mean that the Trump or Pio, not just parallels, the stories intersect directly is, I mean, I'll leave that for another conversation because it is just so overwhelmingly obvious and I want I want people to really get into the details. Terry let me direct the first question to you. It's a very good question from Sylvia Rodriguez Vega. She asks, can you talk about the impact of racial profiling and driving while brown on children, immigrant children in particular children of immigrants kids in general. Give us a sense of what you uncovered in your reporting and in the way of trauma and the lasting impact of all of this. Sylvia. Thank you so much for asking this question. I teach at Arizona State University, and my students felt the impact of this trauma so it's not only the, the reporting that I have done through the years covering this. But I, I see it in my students they want to talk to me about it all the time. What they often say. They're, they're a number of things but they remember that as children because these events happened 10 years ago so so my students are now in their 20s. And they're traumatized by it they remember that as children, they were locked in their homes, you know they were not allowed to go outside because they remember the overwhelming fear that their parents had. They remember the loss of family in the sense of, you know not being able to get together. It was almost like COVID quarantine only something even as terrifying or possibly more terrifying for them than COVID. So they couldn't get together with their families for any birthday parties or anything. There was a great exodus, a diaspora of immigrants who left Arizona, and the children who stayed in Arizona then miss their aunts and their uncles and their, and their cousins. They felt very isolated. But this had an impact. That was, that gave them more resilience. That turned many of them into activists, or gave many of them career goals that would lend that would, in which they could lend their skill sets to activism. And I wanted to see this again and they certainly didn't want their children to see it again. And so, when we actually did a little book talk at at the at Arizona State University at the Walter Cronkite School where I teach, you can sense the trauma in the questions that they asked, and in the high attendance of the book talk, and in their, in their. gratitude that someone, someone gave voice to let that they gave voice they were able to give voice to the, to the trauma. So it was a lot of trauma thank you so much for asking that question. What, what would you say this is another question is related. I hope lawmakers will take from your book, if you could send a copy to any lawmaker who would you send it to. That's another, another question on the list. That's for both of me and for both that were either of you, however, do you want me to, you want to take it. It's strange when it comes to sort of the, about what I can say about opinion to work for the AP and so we don't want to go too far down the political path, except to say that I think, for any lawmaker, I think that this, this story shows that immigration enforcement can be an incredibly politically potent tool or pyro demonstrated that Trump demonstrated that both regimes also demonstrated that it's very easy to cross the line constitutionally when you crack down on immigration and find yourself on the wrong side of the law. And, and what the Arizona example and California before it with the prop 187 backlash shows is that the powerful backlash is can emerge that will reshape the political dynamics of the state. I don't want to overstate that Arizona went blue and 2020 it's still a very complicated place but we have seen it, you know, with multiple political factions of still having a lot of power so. But what we did see is that the voter demographics have really shifted in Arizona and there is a real connection to the kinds of policies that Arizona implemented and our pile implemented that caused people to become activists and voters and register other voters. That's great Terry tell me the, the, the person who beat our pile for the sheriff in the sheriff's race in 2016 and all penzone. I mean there was a lot of, there was a lot of excitement about him. What's the reality because this goes to what Jude saying to sort of what's the you know the smoke clears from the Arpaio years. These 287 G agreements these these these cooperations with the federal government for immigration enforcement. What's the state of play now in Arizona. I want to preface this that the state of play in Arizona now is something that reminds us all that resistance is a long game and that the resistors. And everyone else must always be vigilant as to what's really happening. That's sort of the moral of the story of what's happening in Arizona right now. So Paul Panzone was a Democrat, former Phoenix cop he was. He defeated our pile, largely because well for two reasons one because the many and the resistance supported him and signed up a lot of anti our, you know, our pile voters registered a lot of voters. And the second reason is, because the resistance and Panzone both showed how expensive our pile was he this lawsuit this class action lawsuit it's going to cost 178 million is going to cost taxpayers 178 million by the end of 2021 and there's a lot of people on the site, and Panzone is now now that our pile has left the scene, sort of, and zone is now named in the lawsuit. Right. And that's the other, he didn't win because he wanted to be in the lawsuit but he won, in part because he showed the business community how expensive our pile was. And now that he's now that he's in office. He's been not being compliant, exactly. The judges concerned about certain reports and certain filings that he wants him to be more compliant and it's threatened him with contempt, possibly. He took down 10 city and didn't want ice in the jails, but then he got so much pressure. That he that ice was sort of reinstated in the jail so the resistance is mostly very angry at Panzone but they think he's better than our pile. So what does this say about Arizona. It says that the resistance remains active and remains visit vigilant, and is just going to stop is going to try to stop abuses every step of the way. And I think there's some factions of the resistance who would say, actually, for all intents and purposes he's, he's actually not even that much better than our pile and feel a real sense of betrayal and disappointment because there is still a immigration law enforcement in Texas at play if you get arrested in Maricopa County and are booked into the jail ice agents will will be there. And so I think it's a mixed bag within the resistance others others are happy that he's there and are willing to support him and participate in his in his office. Well, here's here's the, this is a question from Sarah and will probably be our last question and I'm very happy to end here because it's a question I am dying to ask myself. You know, you're both independent journalists. Very successful independent journalists, you're collaborating on this book project. It's a massive undertaking. What was the writing process like doing this together sharing in that process together. Do you have any any kind of what's the sort of highlight reel of that of that experience. I have a record. I have a recommendation and for anybody who's going to collaborate it worked really really really well for us and that is that before we even even shop the book proposal. We had a immigration agreement in place, and it laid out everything. So it lined up, who was to do what, and, you know, all the financial stuff, and it really was wonderful because, because we knew what our jobs were basically. We were both had we both shared this passion for the story that kept us going through some, you know, kind of bleak times when you know we thought we'd never get the book done. It just seemed to drag on and on and so so that was basically it we had a collaboration agreement that outlined what we what we were going to do and we stuck to our jobs and we listened to each other. And I think that's the key don't you do. Right and everybody that I met through New America sang the praises of Scrivner for a book writing tool and sadly, there's, there was no good way to use it. So I mean that some of it was just the trickiness of being in two different places and collaborating on Google Drive basically for years and years and making all of our materials available to each other and having systems of organization that made sense so we could find stuff. You know there there was just a lot of a lot more thoughtfulness that had to go into that because we were two people. You know we outlined the book and we thought carefully about the chapters and we had a whiteboard and we talked, you know, very carefully we're trying to figure out how to make the narrative move and incorporate all these characters and policy, you could not have them overwhelmed the book and not have you know the characters overwhelmed the book either so it was a delicate balance, but our timeline had 4,400 entries in it. So, can you imagine, and so. So we just had a lot of discussion I made a collaboration is a lot of discussion it takes longer than a regular book because of that. Yeah, I can imagine. Well, I, you know we are the very very happy beneficiaries of this collaboration. So I want to thank you both for for your work, first and foremost because it's it's sort of sterling and really impressive and important. I'm going to hold up the spine I've worked this book over so many times the jackets all scuffed up over here but this is the here's the here's the sales pitch with the with the spine. Thank you everyone for tuning in. Again, Jude Terry congratulations on your work, and everyone should go out and buy this book. Thanks. Thanks so much everyone for tuning in.