 It's 15 and we have warned this meeting in three public places and it's been posted on the website and emailed interested parties and so we can continue and move forward and let's start with does anyone have any additions to the agenda tonight Harlan we have that and Mason you had something you want to say yes we do it's a good idea yeah first I like to recognize veterans day and how important this is that a meeting like tonight is the other result of our veterans present and past and the two issues I'd like to bring up is the process over the policy over the last four select board meetings and then an update on e-voting all right so we'll start with the minutes from the last select board meeting on October 28th and I've moved to accept those second all in favor all right and we also have the special select board meeting of the fourth we'll come on in and I move to accept those yes second all in favor all right okay good talk destruction you got this we got those probably means and Jones and so the well let's start so we don't forget Harlan you want to know about a update about the book yeah didn't find a book but we found a highway map from 1970 which is interesting that very clearly shows Pine Gap Road as a class four road of 1.6 miles or so six something I didn't know I'm talking about the one that we found because you were interested in if we'd found anything else new yeah that one came the Hancock they found it in the Hancock town hall on the attic it's a Rochester highway roadmap yeah yeah we do so that is interesting because that is you know it's right after the time that you're concerned about with the missing book kind of in between now and then actually 1970 yeah but listed as a class four road yeah yeah yeah no this had very clearly had a distinction of what would be a discontinued road with a special marking for that and this one is not marked that way it's marked as a class four road just you know so that's so we so stuff did show up just kind of interesting I'd like to know that Martha you had a question yeah Harlan I also in my in the process of cleaning out the Constable's office to keep my eyes open for not just that book but anything that doesn't belong there I'm just letting you know so far I've all I found is garbage so I'm still love keep my eyes open all right I'm yeah yeah they're I met with a historical society and we went through what they have cataloged and we really didn't come up with anything that pointed towards meeting minutes just to be sure it didn't follow following that category historical data we are so Mason you want to talk about voting again I guess the it was pretty clear at the last meeting but verified that indeed that's not an option for voting in the state of Vermont so I don't know how much more discussion you want to have about that but it's it's not a recognized form of voting in the state of Vermont well since you encouraged more volunteerism I spoke with Christopher winners from the deputy of the Secretary of State and there are ways that voting can evolve one of them that charter towns have a whole different set of rules as we know we're a municipal town but it's something that our town may want to look into is becoming a charter town the other one is in the process of an informal vote can be handled in an e voting process so these are discussions but this is something just letting you know there are options out there to be looked at so that was what I wanted to bring right so far that what I found places that do allow e voting is basically from like combat areas and such like that extreme duress where it's really not easy to to get to voter to get mail in so it's so that's there those are the times when I found it was accepted not by the state of Vermont but other places well anyway and then you had something else that you wanted to talk about process tonight we're going to be potentially thinking about adopting a class 4 policy a policy the general principles by which a select board is guided in its management of public affairs so I think it's important to first start with what a policy is and this is the general principles so this is a process where the people from the floor the voters develop a policy so that the select board is guided in its management of public affairs so policies have a long-last-speed impact on a community and need to be looked at in a very serious way and I would consider a policy to be included in an open meeting law situation and it seems that over the last four meetings we have been basically in flux about understanding the process of open meeting laws when it comes to this policy and how much public input has been involved in it and the time frame of which the adoption seems to be be pushed so I'll leave it at that on my issues around process I think feel it we need to look a lot harder at open meeting laws in reference to this policy thank you Larry are you making this specific accusation some process hasn't been if you are are you saying I'd like to look at the process because open meeting are you making an accusation no I experience you I feel I experience saying there you are making a failed accusation I have a specific accusation you'd like to make everything I have experience not some it's not some vague reference I'm not making a specific accusation I'm not making a vague reference I said one classroom policy itself and sit down I don't don't don't make some veiled reference if you have something specific that you want to ask them I made some error then make make the accusation that they've made some error I did okay what's the question I didn't say I experienced what the situation where the public has not had an efficient time in the last three meetings you are at a public meeting three times right here a public open meeting and that wasn't enough for you correct the I think that you're overreaching or under estimating the role of the select board to conduct the town business I mean we're here to take public input but it's we're elected to conduct the business of the town in open meeting yes in open meeting open not behind closed doors so when are you saying that we did it behind closed doors you you brought a policy to be adopted without public input on the 28th and well we had public input on the 28th that's how it works we brought the policy and we had public input you know I as the road commissioner solicited our prior to the 28th what public input was involved with creating the policy which is a public we don't we don't need to do that with you you don't need to create you don't think the people are involved with creating the policy because as I stated in the general principle of all which a school a select board is to guide in the management of the public right and this is a business meeting not a drama class yes all right so case in point we have Harlan's brother who I see is not here making a big to-do on front porch forum accusing the select board of shutting out the public from what is happening and finding out from no no no that's not you but I'm looking at you because it's your brother I'm just my point is my point is he got something to say to us yeah where is he is he um if he's throwing garbage out on front porch forum and saying that he has to find it through the the grapevine whether my connection with you is that you're his next-door neighbor and you're his brother yeah alright well so I'm saying here we have the drama yeah sounds like Patty did respond yeah yeah Nancy well I was going to and since he's not here and you're his brother I was hoping to communicate through you that you know you should maybe keep him better in touch because he's feeling like he didn't know what was going on and I'm sure that being his brother that you would let him know what's going on yeah we were presented with a policy we were told it was going to be adopted at that meeting all right all right that's what there was no policy for anybody to look at in here while we're on it I guess something for you guys could we get a chance could we do this in order what have we got this is all pretend you were at the meeting all right this is about the public open meeting law which we understand which we understand yeah so I understand that Lizzie and Dan shock afford have been accusing us of having improper meetings they're assuming that we had well I'm just responding yeah I did read that letter and I just I if you would like to read it go ahead but I had I think a great addition to the community she did some research on what they refer to as boilerplate plate class four road policy right and I did a little research too because I thought wow I don't know enough about this and there's a class four road near where I live too so anyway this is their letter dear Julian select board members unfortunately Dan and I will be away during the next select board meeting but we wanted to clarify a couple of questions ahead of the revised policies adoption we are still new to the process so apologies if we have any misunderstandings did we miss a meeting or an opportunity for input in the discussion when these new revisions were decided on we are still learning the ropes around here but want to take advantage of Vermont's approach to governance our main questions regard the deviations from the VLTC model class four highway policy on which we understand this policy was based we expect that any of these deviations would have been chosen deliberately first in section one of the proposed policy this text has been added quote the purpose of this policy is to protect the public investment in the town highway system this language and intent is not in the model policy and risks and overly narrow interpretation what was the reasoning for this addition if the purpose will be narrowly defined we still believe the public interest would be better served by also including consideration of the public interest including preservation of the town's environment and natural resources this would ensure that the present and future interest of the public rather than merely past financial or other investment is taking into consideration with these decisions ultimately if the select board prefers to leave section one as it is in the model law without the additional narrow specification regarding the investment then that would alleviate the need for this additional language why has the select board opted for different language in section three from that in the model policy temporarily restricting travel and prohibiting or restricting use of motorized vehicles are plainly different language and means the prohibition or specific restriction of motorized vehicles is present in both the model policy and many other class four highway policies in the region so those are the two points we will concede that the suggestions made under six and seven regarding the need for a period of public comment and input should not be necessary as this is required already under Vermont's open law open meeting law we do ask that the notice period be respected in the future part of the rush of the current policy is that the text was not available for public review I've had of when the board hopes to adopt it many of us in town are concerned the proposed policy as written could have negative consequences on the public interest the environment and the areas around this used class four roads we know this is a challenging issue and we are just looking for clarification on the reasoning and potential implications for the policy choices made here so that we can have an informed opinion and discussion we appreciate your consideration look forward to further discussion on this and future matters we know much of the hard work of the town's governance is a volunteer effort and we appreciate it greatly please let us know how we can be of help in the future we would be happy to be more involved sincerely Lizzie Shackleford and Van Ward so Lizzie is an attorney and they've both done lots of public service around the world embassy work included they are very knowledgeable they're not accusing the town of anything but their whatever antenna was tickled I think by the discussion in both the meetings that they attended and I peeked my interest is peaked also because I you know I hear that there's some emotion about this and I want to see civility and cooperation and support and volunteers to help you all look this look into this there is a book that I was told about that is like the Bible about class or roads in Vermont and it's written by Paul Gillies you know the book yeah and so I looked that up I didn't have a chance to read a lot of it but that just felt like my goodness let's not argue about all this let's look at someone who spent years looking into all this and he's an attorney in Montpelier yeah yeah I appreciate you're reading their letter and input I what is unfortunate that it seems that there is much emotion blowing up there's much to do about nothing we have about six miles of class four roads in the town of Rochester give or take and we have currently received and probably will receive in the future a request to do some maintenance on one of the roads and it's a slightly time sensitive with the weather because it's to for a timber harvest that's what prompted this movement towards adopting a policy adopting this class four road policy will not change anything that state laws currently allow us to do nothing is new nothing is going to change the only thing that we are adopting this for it was a step towards clarity in transparency in board decision-making and to help us make rational and consistent decisions and so this is it is all stuff that is we're operating under already under state rules by default by not having a policy which has been following the town you know the state rules and so this is just a step to actually have more clarity and you know this is a tool that will use to go forward with decisions and standardized procedure so it's really this sense that I've been getting that the select board is trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes is is just a paranoid evolution of I'm not sure what Nancy do you have something that you want to say yeah I would like to I agree there needs to be a policy in place you know I own a bridge on yes I had no clue this was happening I'm not a Rochester resident so I don't monitor Rochester's meeting but also the Grandville select was a little taken aback that they knew nothing about that yeah but it doesn't really affect I mean this is not like I said it's not changing the rules it's not changing the laws it's not affecting anything it's basically trying to improve our processes in the town so it's really not in it's it's not really changing much when let me let Nancy finish it like to go on and say the only thing that bothers me about the policies people aren't feeling grieved if they didn't have enough input once the policy is in place it will be hard to change yeah and my my feeling is that it's requiring commercial insurance of the average Joe such as myself is ridiculous I mean Kenny's got insurance I'm okay today but you can't require the average person to have commercial insurance to go to and from their home you know if they want to drop their plow and plow 300 feet they need commercial insurance no that's a good point yeah that's a concern I have as well I live on class 4 road that's the same concern I have that's one area in the policy that needs a little adjustment in my opinion pardon yeah I I could see that you know it makes sense to I mean you you I got the impression of the last meeting that you were in a rush because there was somebody that needed that wanted to do something to a class for a road and my my thought was why do you need to push through this policy why can't you let them do that since there is so much emotion and concern about this particular policy and people feeling like maybe they're not getting the input they want that do whatever I mean since you already have had no policy all along let them go ahead and do their thing and then still give people an opportunity to talk to give their input especially when people are feeling like whoa you're trying to pull the low rise why wouldn't you step back and say okay let's let let's let them do what they need to do because there's some rush for that but if people are interested in one of the input slow down and let people do that rather than push it through and there's people that feel like hey I didn't know about this or I have more to say or other things I'd like you to consider I think that that seems that's exactly what we're doing right but at the last meeting you guys had for the last month at the last meeting you guys so we've got to get this good we've got to get going and also people had said well we haven't even seen this policy and so it seemed like oh you're trying to push something through really fast with because you have this person that need to have worked on but that kind of superseded the need of a lot of people wanting to speak up and get their input so I'm glad that that's the case that you're going to let them do that and take the time to give people input because for me personally I don't care that much about class 4 roads I care about that you guys are taking input and that because I think okay if there's not input on this what what's the next thing there's nothing to be put on so that's my concern I really could care less about class 4 roads this is our this is our fourth trip and receiving input from the public I'm just saying that last last time you guys it said hey we want to push this through and people said it did seem to be that way the contractor is proceeding well this is in the US under the old policy which we've had all along yeah I mean this was you know just a desire to move things forward and I said to make things clear and to have a specific contract and agreements with people that are going to do the work just to be and I think that's great and I think if there's so many people that want to put them in this in this day and age of lawsuits flying back and forth amongst you know people back and forth in towns we do need to have something in place for when that particular incident may come along the town has survived decades without policies like this without an issue but it seems to be a different world now the our attorney that we used to formulate this policy actually used to be an attorney with the VLCT he may as well even written that their model policy and his the policy that he created for us as he feels is a step above and an improvement over that policy so when we look at the boilerplate basic policy it's looking at a very low common denominator and so I you know it's not that we're I think that the changes are not not to be assumed that they're just casually taken partly why do you think it's a problem we're here we're listening this is our fourth fourth open meeting about before you know where's where's the problem before you apply the policy okay I'm not talking about policy per se I'm talking about the finished product and when you go to apply it well here's here's a good reason why they would you know we do this policy we're we're elected to conduct the business of the town right if we have something that comes up and someone wants to make you know when something happens with the road and something needs to happen you can't always take a month or two to talk about it before you take action we that's why I want to have clear guidelines by what what things happen you know when there's a tree falls down on bingo road you know we don't have a meeting to say is it okay for me to cut the tree we just go and do it you know so it's you know it's it's we're not actually you know yes we take public input but the decision is actually the select board's decision to adopt policies and ordinance is a different thing we have public meetings and then warren special hearings about an ordinance but um it's it's Mason comment would you step in from the camera please if you're going to contribute just now you made the reference that you're creating the policy I disagree I think the community creates the policy and then you it's your guidance from the policy to manage town affairs that's why I feel like even this that's why I feel even this policy can easily go plenty of discussion can be worked on this all the way to the annual meeting and let the people vote on the policy that you will be working with to manage our town affairs policies along to the people and you work off of them of the policy I can understand how you would be concerned about this in your legal situation with the time you know so let's take that with the grain assault Larry so did I understand you to to mean that Jim Barlow who was the lead attorney at VLCT for many years yes modified the the template he might have used some of that template he might have I don't know if that was the base template but he's the one that presented specifically for some of the points referenced in the letter no no this was oh yeah yes yeah the letters yeah some of the points that they're addressing came from suggested language from from Jim Barlow yes yes so that so that's why they were changes from the VLCT template correct they came from your attorney yeah yeah and so you know you know from my time back seems like a long time ago now thankfully you know that you know adopting a class 4 road policy was always something that was strongly recommended and you know it's I mean it gives you know guidance for everybody for not only for the board but for anybody that you know has to be involved on class 4 road whether it's a contractor that wants to temporarily improve it because they have a log job or somebody who might buy a house on the road and wants to know what's going to happen on the road can you know and do I have to plow it if I build a house out there or is the town going to bring gravel to improve it or do I have to bring the gravel you know so I mean I don't really know why you know this this is you know sunset seems to have grown into such a hot button topic but it's a pretty straightforward and that was having your in your tool kit it's recommended established policy of you know these are the rules of the road that we're there you know operate under that's the perspective that we were working from sounds and sounds to me like I mean if this is the fourth meeting that you talked about it that's like a lot of opportunity so I'm hearing one specific concern about the issue of the insurance whereas the rest of the concerns about the process too fast the process too fast but if there's specific a specific concern about the policy that we want to address that's I think that's that's that's more important and then you you had you guys said Nancy said was a fair statement so this is the statement about a required you can find the text in there winter maintenance is it winter maintenance or any maintenance I don't think it's an extra maintenance construction whatever yeah now I could understand where if someone is doing significant work to a road like the guy wants to put gravel in and in dealing with if he's going to put in water bars or culvert or not I don't know that's something that that should be he should have insurance on there but to need insurance just to drop the plow and make it to your house whether you do it or you do it I think that that would be worth specifying differentiation in there it is written in under the private winter maintenance as well as well yes coverage well I think I should have some verbiage in there about landowners on that you know right that's all mine you know residents living on the right you have to allow that you do it for hire but you are probably you're insured right yeah yeah I'm not worried about sure if I do think other people that you know people that live on the road clowning for themselves there could be an exception no you know Nancy also I don't know how this could be worded but it would be nice if there was some assurance that if somebody wanted to build a home or owns a home that the permit would be granted you know for access because the way this is worded it makes you wonder you know gee if I if I build a place on that class 4 road I might be Stonewall I I know I the state law that's not a lot for that in fact if you built a home on a class forward and you petitioned to have it upgraded to a class 3d road you have the legal right to do so but even though it's a class 4 you are yeah yeah I mean like I said we can then not changing anything that's currently in a state law this is basically just just adopting those to our specific policy so we recognize you know we're not just defaulting to the state so I think you're taking a step in the right direction adopting this policy for class 4 roads that all towns not just Rochester but you need to take a look at your class 4 roads and the maintenance and who's required to do the maintenance and culverts and structures I know the town of Randall's responsible for the culverts in a class 4 road and they're an asset for the town you need to look at them I know you've been challenged in the last year with all the other road work that you had but yeah it should be in the back in mind that while their class 4 roads are an asset to us we need to keep them and keep them in good condition and whichever whatever condition that they're and with the new general state road permit identifying hydrologically connected roads and having to deal with the runoff of those roads in an appropriate manner of course the bigger the road the higher on the priority that is but down the line there are class 4 roads that are identified as problem areas that need to be dealt with also. I had a discussion with Jim Dave on the Grandville's left board about that about the class 4 roads in Grandville that are connected and coming down the pike you're going to have to start dealing with the water. Absolutely. Along with this policy anyone that wants to do upgrading or work or maintenance on a class 4 road has an application to fill out so we will have something on record saying who is doing what to our class 4 roads and their culverts so we'll have a record of who we contact if we see something that we don't find might be up to par or how it was done how was it documented we will have that data so that is a step going in that direction. That's good you can put that in your road file over there. Oh yeah the road file gets bigger all the time. Martha you have a question? Yeah am I correct if I said that the board said that the policy wording would be clarified so that landowners on class 4 roads would not have commercial insurance to new winter maintenance. We're taking into consideration. So you're going to consider it. That discussion now and that's a public input meeting. How are the other ones next? The town's lawyer worked on this. Is that correct? Yes. Is that the same lawyer that's working on the lawsuit? No. No. No. No? Okay that's good. Okay and on page 2 the first page I gave you flip it over. Right at the top in government the ultimate boss is the public Vermont Constitution chapter 1 article 6. That all power being originally inherent in and consequently derived from the people. Therefore all officers of government whether legislative or executive are their trustees and servants and at all times in a legal way accountable to them. Okay. That's true we are. True. That's true. I do. Okay. Now when this, when was it decided that this was going to the lawyer? And who decided that? I decided that as a road commissioner. When we were approached by the someone asking permission to work on the road up above the Ottons, the class 4 road for the Stimaharis above the Swans Mill. I contacted the lawyer asking him you know if he would draft up a simple agreement between the town and the guy who did want to do the work. And then he responded in the recommendation that we should adopt a policy and the agreement should go through the policy. That's them. And this is not the first time he's made that recommendation. He's recommended that we adopt a class 4 road policy. This is your look. Yeah. In the past. And here we had something to nudge us to do it. This time it has to happen. Yeah. Can you give us a tour? Well I know but I mean it was kind of a rush job too. Well, not really. You know, sometimes things need to be expedited a little bit. But even that is not that. It's again as you're presenting it as if the public has the right to draft this document and actually the document is dictated by the state laws. And so there's not really that much. So here we can perhaps tweak this about land owner needing insurance just to plow to their road. But the basic laws that govern class 4 roads are state rules. We're not changing anything really. It's just a formality. And I think there's a lot of fear and upset because of the lawsuit on Pine Gap Road. And everyone is hypersensitive around, you know, the concept of a class 4 road. And that's I think is what's behind a lot of this concern here. Well I mean I'm here because of the concern that I've all heard about so. And I think sometimes when this kind of concern is like, you know, it's a bell whether it's like okay listen to everyone and let's find out what. Let's forget about the lawsuit for a minute. I don't even know all the details. I don't know where you're at with that. But I would like to see you definitely add back in the wording that the public interest and preservation of our environment and natural resources. Not just our investment. Because those are our investment too. And to add back in this. So those, I don't believe was that verbiage, was that in the VLC policy or is that added by the suggestion from Daniel? And it's a road policy. It's not the environmental policy. And we have to be very clear about what this is. It's a road policy. What does she call it? The VLC? But it's admitted in the policy that you all brought forward. So it's changed. The wording has changed. You're talking about. I mean this is the lawyer that wrote that boilerplate policy that presented us with this modified policy. So I'm, I have to say, I gave a lot of the environment and natural resources and I wouldn't want to modify out prohibition or specific restriction. You know, you got to look at it again, I guess is what I'm saying. No, we've looked at it a few times. But that's my request to the town and select board is to look at the wording around that. I just may say something that you're right about that wording. But some of that wording could be dangerous in the sense that injecting an environmental policy into this road policy has to be looked at very carefully. Because that could be used to restrict access to a landowner perhaps in the future. And I think that's where you get into dangerous territory. I mean you have to define that environment. It's like the spotted owl and logging or whatever, I know all about that. But I do think we need to be careful not to put ourselves in a corner too. We need to have something about. Part of those statements that I read were concerning the use of snow machines and possibly ATVs and restricting those. And I looked at a number of other road policies of other local towns which don't restrict such things. And I don't believe it's even right to restrict those things. You're on a Class 4 road and the residents that live on that road, landowners that live on that Class 4 road are maintaining that road. They have in my view and for what I've read they have every right to use a snowmobile on that road whenever they want. And as far as, and I think we have to be very careful about how we approach these things. Where you're going to put unnecessary restrictions on what I call inconsequential effects on the environment. We have a society with thousands of cars and trucks and everything else using up all kinds of fuel. We have all the road maintenance that goes with Class 3 roads that most people live on. We have trucks, we have graders, we have excavators. All this is consuming energy. And I find that when you have someone who, I mean if you don't plow their road and there's an inch too much snow they complain. If the grass is too high on the side of the road they complain. Well, it takes a lot of energy to keep all those things in conformance to what people want. But people who live on a Class 4 road are pretty much automatically much more environmental than living on a Class 3 road. They don't have all that stuff in there, generally speaking. And Class 4 residents generally do maintain their own road. Sometimes they pick and shovels. I know I live on one. I've got to maintain almost half a mile of one. Just to get in and out. I chose to do it. I chose to live there. I don't ask the town for a dime. Okay? I never would. All I'm saying is we have to be very careful about infringing on people's rights, property rights, by using some of that language. I'm all for realistic practical approaches to the environment. But we still have to be careful about this. You think the only people that have rights to 4 Class roads are people with these properties, actually, that butts the road? No. It's a public right away. It's a public asset. There were a couple of law cases that went through and it was decided that your property had to abut the road in order for you to demand access to it. I think, I'm not sure. But there was a lawsuit in Okimo. Anyone can travel with that. I'm just going by what was preceding law cases, Larry. I don't know. Anyone has the right to be there on any given day traveling. Yeah. I would just like to offer, and I don't know this to be the case, but that the attorney may have specifically changed the wording in this case because maybe in the time period that has gone by since the original template was written that disagreements or questions have arisen that had caused problems for other towns with the original language. Well, that's why I went to the attorney instead of just going to the on-the-line boilerplate form. Exactly. I'm trying to suggest that the original language may have created problems in some way for other towns and that there was good reason and forethought put into why he suggested different language to you. And to perhaps bring some closure if everyone's had their discussion. Since I've been on the select board, we have updated and adopted at least three other policies. We just got done with the personnel policy. We move on to the next thing that's on the list. It's just the sequence of how the government is working. We did a conflict of interest recently. We're chipping away at it, and as soon as we get done with one, there's going to be another one that we start working on. This is just the normal business for us. We're just moving through them all. There was no motivation to pick this one out. The opportunity came for us to pick this one next, and we're dealing with it. We're listening to everybody and what they have to say. So this is just the normal sequence of how things come about for us. We didn't have this motivation to bring it out, except for the fact that a logger would like to update a road so that he can use it for the next couple of years. That's what brought it to the front. Anybody else? I think it would be a mistake to leave out some language about natural resources. If you don't like the word environment, but I do think we're coming from Vermont, the Green State, and Rochester. That language is apparent in our town plan. The formal one and the new one. So that attitude is already in place in another spot. If you wanted to read the town plan, it's very clear that the town adopts the fact that it's protecting its natural resources. So it's pretty clear the issue about insurance, whether it's someone doing a big job or someone just a landowner needing to get to town. Tell me what you think would be an issue that that wording would make a difference in terms of it seems like it's a little bit touchy-feely in terms of it's not very specifically addressing anything. I mean, the state guidelines about controlling runoff off the road, that's the hot trigger item here that we're going to have to address. I just don't see where it really makes much of a difference. I think I can't speak specifically to this particular logger who needs to get in. I haven't read about it enough. I don't know the situation. All I'm saying is that for us to leave out this wording or at least revise the wording, somewhat to include preservation. I want to ask you a question. What kind of preservation would you be looking for on a Class 4 road? This is dealing with the road. Which Class 4 road are we talking about? We have a number of them in town. Six miles. I think it's 3.6 or something miles in Class 4 roads. Any Class 4 road that would affect the environment? Well, every road affects the environment. No, you made that clear and I get it and I understand that. I'm just saying that I would feel more comfortable as a town member to think that you would consult the lawyer and look at that wording. These two points are pretty clearly spelled out. I'm just stating my opinion that I feel like it's a vague category but it's a specific leaning toward investment rather than environment. The policy is about the road. These are not nature trails per se. They're roads and people can use them for access. Bruce, you had something you wanted to add? Based on my experience working 40 years in natural resources, a feel-good statement like will protect the environment, will protect natural resources doesn't mean anything unless you have standards to go with it. And I don't see in this Class 4 roads policy that you have to write down every single standard that it will be this wide. The water billers will be every so many feet. I bet a lot of that is covered under the improvement on Class 4 Highway Section D where it spells out some of the standards you're using. So I wouldn't repeat them again. I'll bet you if you look at those specific standards, you'll find that goal of protection of the environment. That's a good point. So General Road's permit is, from the state, is focused on protecting the environment from the damage that can be done by improperly controlled runoff on the road. So it's inherent in the policy. It's like it's not a point to get stuck on because it's vague. Your Class 4 roads, you have a whole gradient of different degrees of Class 4 roads. You have roads that are traveled all the way through down to a trail. So it's going to be up to the select board's discretion to deal with each road individually. Each case is going to have to be separate. Some may be looked at as becoming Class 3 roads. I don't know the other. Maybe you might be better off to turn them into trails. The town plan is very clear on the importance of holding on to Class 4 roads and keeping them as a public asset for recreation, for access, for hunting, for bird watching. So again, I come down to I think the only real concrete suggestion for a modification is about the differentiation between insurance coverage. Is that something that you would feel comfortable writing in an hour and you want to take the time to then we can spend some more money with the lawyer and get his reasoning on why he wrote it the way he did but the way the reason we hired him to do it was because we trust him to do it appropriately. So I feel like it's... I can't say for sure but I'm almost certain that Lizzy would do that research and legal work for you, no charge if you want someone else to look at it. May I add something? That not only is the policy dictated by the research that the lawyers do that the planning does but it's also guided by the regional plan and the town is actually going through the process of rewriting its plan, town plan and this town plan is guiding the policy behind this class 4 road action right now. So there's a huge amount of alignment that is in place at the moment. It's not something that's just coming out of nowhere. The region is very well protected by the two of Uncreechy Planning Commission. They're very, very vigilant on preservation of the environment on town centers, on expansion and all those kinds of things. And the class 4 road is just a very simple thing where it's being maintained for public good and for the good of the community. So there's not really any discrepancy with what the community is doing with it or any damage to it. It's just a road. It's just maintaining a simple road access. And all of those bigger issues that we all really care about and why we live in Vermont and being taken care of by the town plan and by the regional commission, they work very hard on it and they're working very hard with the towns individually. I just offer that as the commissioner for Rochester on the planning commission. It's been a lot of time listening to these discussions. And this is a very minor issue compared to many, many much logic issues that are being dealt with right now that do address, you know, preservation of community centers, village centers and the environment and corridors where wildlife can go freely. All of those things are really being addressed in a very, you know, conscientious way. It's so true. Thank you. So what's your fancy? Are you comfortable making modifications now or are you feeling that you want to table this yet again to work on the proper verges for the separation of insurance requirements? I certainly don't want to delay it any more than it already has been. But unless we can come up with some appropriate legal lease to change that now, I think we might have to delay it. I know you don't want to do that. That's a big process. I mean, we can... It's perhaps just removing e from the equation. Which section? That is... Or just removing the word... I'm just making sure it wasn't duplicated somewhere else. Well, it is under g. Under improvement, it's in e. Yeah, see, there's two paragraphs that need to be changed. With the maintenance, it's in e. Remove the word permit t. And just leave it permit t. If someone's doing significant work, they need to have the appropriate insurance on there. I think we need to add something specific on the private individuals. So I'm fine with tabling this to get the proper information around that, and then we could also spend some more money with the town attorney to find out why he modified that if that's really... I'm sure his motive was to protect the town. Well, let's find out. Who's going to enforce it if you didn't have the insurance? Who do you think you guys are going to enforce it? Well, if we have a policy in place where that's required and someone's out there working on the road without a proper application, then we could have legal defense about that, that they were illegally doing that work and they'd not... I'm just talking plowing. That might want to be something to be modified. Plowing is an exemption. Yeah. Some of these trucks don't even register. Yeah, right. Here's a register. Walt, I see your hand. You've been quiet so far tonight. I'm trying. I think where I was going with Tom was just saying, at least I thought it was just saying, you could perhaps exclude snow plowing specifically. You could perhaps exclude snow plowing only from it. That's just one more paragraph. Yeah, I think that might be something we want to consider. Yes, I agree. If you're not plowing with a tractor like I do, but you're plowing with a truck, it's already insured and registered. We have to plow every zero. Everything's got to be plowed. It's supposed to be, but if it's strictly snow plowing, you might just put it in another paragraph. You can just do plowing. You can have a lot of truckers plowing. I got a blue truck. I registered and inspected. So it didn't have brakes. So if we added the sentence excluding snow plowing to land on the maintenance. Yeah. If you want it to be done in a public meeting, this is a time to do it. Otherwise, someone has to do it by themselves. In fact, the letter that you read, I saw another version of that, which went a little bit farther and it accused us of having an improper public meeting. But otherwise, how would we have come up to the modifications in this policy? I'd just like to make clear that I made those modifications to the policy and then submitted them again to the meeting for us to look at. There was no closed-door meeting where we modified the policy. I, as the road commissioner, did that. Just to make clear, you didn't I don't know if you had the whole letter. He didn't get it. But just before the meeting, I saw a copy of that where we were accused of having a closed-door meeting to make the adjustments to this policy. I just would like to make that clear that that is not what happened. And so, if we're going to make an adjustment now, I can either go and do it myself and bring it to the next meeting or we can make a decision right now in a public meeting. And I would prefer to do that. Well, I would I would suggest in a paragraph, I guess it would be paragraph 6, section e-g and 7, section e that we have some verbiage that says to the effect that snow plowing is exempt along with landowner maintenance from this insurance policy. Who's liable if you're on a class 4 road and it's not? Who's liable if you're on a class 3 road? I don't know. Who is liable? The town's not... Well, give me a scenario. I don't really know where the class 4 roads go, but if you were on a class 4 road and someone was doing the maintenance themselves and it wasn't up to par and you had an accent, who's liable? I'm just curious. I'm not trying to... I'm just curious. Who is liable? I... This states who is. Whoever did the work. Whoever did the work is liable. That's what this is doing. Whereas up until now, no one knows. So now it would be defined. So that was section 6 paragraph g and section 7 paragraph e, right? Yeah, I know. The whole section 7 has to do with smoking light and sand. Right. And it's only reasonable that class 4 landowners be able to accomplish that. It's a road. You're right. Exactly. Residing. Yeah, we'd probably make that completely clear. Now, Nancy, question for you. What's that? I have a question for you. In your case, you are currently, you guys are plowing the entire Oak Lodge road. Is that correct? The class 4 section. Yeah. And you are currently maintaining that road. Until the road landers become heavy, then we let it fill in the snow. Well, I portion of the road. We're talking about the watch. Which is 600 feet? Well, we've been plowing your section of the road, but it hasn't had any real maintenance since Irene. Right, right. Which I would be looking for one of your applications because I'd like to put a load of gravel or something out there. There's some problems with the road that are coming out. But yeah, I haven't even graded that section of the road since Irene was starting to get pounded. I've graded the grand-build section with my tractor with their permission. And I've added gravel to that section of the road. So you'll go out through in those pretty decent minutes. So it would be helpful for you to have a clear process to go through to approach us about doing that, wouldn't it? Yeah, so I was going to approach you at some point anyways. And now that this has come up, I guess I picked the opportunity. It could be our test-first test case. One of the things you picked. Yeah, we maintained all the way out through so we could get out through there usually. The last one, it was pretty tough. There was quite a bit of snow, and we didn't really stop plowing it like she said during deer hunting because it really gets a lot of traffic. And then it stayed unplowed until I needed to get out through there in the spring so I had to plow it on the whole delivery. Okay. Well, I would like to go ahead and move that. We had to adopt this subject to these two edits to relieve that burden of private landowners. I can second that. Yeah. All in favor? Aye. Thank you for all your interest and input. And like I said, this doesn't really change anything except give us a clearer way of applying the rules that already exist. So. So what are the specific edits? Oh, you didn't hear that? I'll just, you know. Yeah. That is on section six paragraph G. We're exempting adjacent landowners, snow plowing and road maintenance from the necessity of the $1 million liability policy. We're going to just apply the requirement of carrying the insurance for people that are doing significant work on the road, you know, not just snow plowing at that section and also on section seven paragraph E. Same. Yeah. Thank you for coming. Thank you. And so we will write these, get a specific edits made and then like an e-mailed copy of that like you have been getting. Yeah. Sure. And then we'll post that. We'll eventually get it on the town website and post one out on the board up there for people to see. Yeah. All right. It's going to be posted on the board. Is it something that goes in the Herald too or not? I mean it's not. I would just mention in the Herald that it's been adopted, but people really want to. But you said it was going to be posted. It'll be, I would assume it would eventually find its way onto the website and we'll put a copy on the bulletin board outside of the Tom Clerk's office here. Okay. And the few people that have requested copies of it. All right. We had some small updates from Joan. She hasn't been having to work too hard. She's cooter. You want to speak to, she's been talking to you about whether or not to make more than one application to the Better Roads program. Do a bunch. As many as she can. As many as she can. I told her to get all the money she can, and I'll spend that. All right. Yep. Yep. Yep. Like I said, you're making several applications to the Better Backroads program. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty good projects to be done. They're including upsizing several cross-drains on Jerusalem Hill Road and a couple other roads, Maple Hill and Wing Farm. Yeah. Wing Farm and not Maple Hill. Okay. One's that FEMA won't fund. And also, Colvert on Townline Road that you discovered was having issues. Yeah. Couple weeks ago. Yep. Yeah. Wow. Oh. I'll be expensive. The bridge. It sounds like a bridge. It sounds like a bridge? It does. Yep. And you've got to start spreading some salt, huh? Yep. That's started. That's me. I'm afraid. Yep. FEMA, site inspector, meeting tomorrow has been canceled. cancelled. I would say within the next week, we'll probably reschedule. Yeah. Sorry, you have something to do tomorrow anyway, don't you? Yes, I'm afraid to do it. Yeah. So I think that's about it. All right. I think we're ready. All right. Sort of. Sort of? It's coming ready or not? Not mentally, but mechanically, I think we're ready. You found your hat. Yeah, that's good. Thank you. Yeah, Mary? Yeah. Tony? Yeah, we have a trustees meeting tomorrow at 6.15, no, 6 o'clock, sorry, and on Thursday, the Vermont Poet Laureate will be at the library at 7 o'clock to read some poems and I think discuss some of this poetry. And who is that? His name is Chad de Noire. Okay. Now I see why you didn't say it. Yeah. Okay. I don't think people will remember it. N-I-O-R-B. Oh. N-I-O-R-B. Oh, great. What time is it? 7? 7? Yeah. All right. No Terry. No Terry. He's hunting and Dana is covering for him while he's gone. He's out of town. He's hunting and Dana is covering for him while he's gone. So now I guess this is appropriate since it's snowing outside. We did finally get a bid for the sidewalk and- One whole bed. One whole bed. Okay. Is this from Music Mountain Property Maintenance? And he's submitting a bid of 13,500 per year for a three year period. Plowing, sanding, and salting. Town of Rochester sidewalks from November 1st to May 1st. And also include plowing of fire hydrants after each storm. I think that we specified six inches. Six inches. Yeah. Yeah. All right. And I guess he is waiting to order a piece of equipment to see whether or not he gets this bid. All right. And that's pretty much in- Three years. Yep. Three years. Yep. 13,500. For a year. For a year. Yeah. For a three year period. Yes. Committing for three years. Yeah. Yeah. Is that about the same as it's been? That's what I was just going to ask Nancy. Yeah. No. 12. Yeah. I don't know. What was it? Do you remember what it was last year? Oh, yeah. You're right. I think it was less than that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're putting hydrants into it, too. Yeah. We're putting hydrants into it. But honestly, if I recall. It was around seven. Yeah. But I think we made some concessions because of all those equipment failures. It broke. Everything broke. It cost us a bit more than it did. Yeah. It did. Well, that's why the last guy bailed on it. I didn't hear anything. Be honest with you. It's no global. Yeah. I mean, it got around that this is not a super easy job. Yeah. Which is not. You're going to be hanging off on equipment. No one else has bid on it. I thought it was going to be higher net. Yeah. Yeah. I will say that's a fair price. Yeah. Yeah that its. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think if we looked back to when Mike had this contract before, this is probably before this is probably we budgeted 7500 and I don't know what we spent that for this current year I know but I know but it's in the fire department didn't the fire department wasn't there somebody in the fire department that was donating that time? No, they paid for it. I think he charged but he didn't charge for it. Dave he charged like four hundred dollars to do it was it was token money. It's nothing. I mean he must have nothing better else to do. I can't imagine anybody else doing it that cheap. And he's not getting more. Exactly, no. He's done. He retired. Well I second that motion, Betty. Yep, wrong favor. I guess it's going to snow. I guess it's going to snow.