 Welcome everyone to how to make OkRs lean again by Bart Denhock. He is an experienced expert in OkRs. As a coach and consultant, he has more than 10 years of experience in applying OkRs and also training professionals. He is the founder and CEO of Moving the Needle. I think he is the author of Lean OkRs as you see in the presentation. So without any further delay, I'm just handing over to Bart Denhock. Thanks and welcome everybody to this presentation. And today I want to talk about how to make OkRs lean again. And like I said, I'm the founder of Moving the Needle. I'm also the author of this book, Moving the Needle with Lean OkRs, with a forward by Christine Wotski. So I have some links to the book at the end of the presentation. So today I'm going to talk about OkRs. What in a nutshell are OkRs? It's this 40-year-old goal-setting system. It's that old. And if you implement it correctly, you get this innovation and this next level of growth. And some people refer to them as the tool to get 10x growth. And it has boomed since 2019. Ever since John Dorr wrote the book about OkRs, which is called Measure What Matters. And it's used today by all the big tech firms out there. You see Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google. All of them use some sort of OkRs and it's getting popularity, especially in Silicon Valley, but it's now spreading to Europe, Asia, etc. And it's a great tool. However, they're bloated. And people are getting tired a bit of them. And because the process is getting cumbersome, people don't like them anymore. People are just tired of them. Is this the next management fat that's coming along? So people don't like them anymore. I was in a webinar with John Kotler and he's a product evangelist and coach at Amplitude. And he has a presentation about his North Star framework. Maybe some of you know about them. And at the end of the presentation, people were asking about how, John, can you tell a little bit about how OkRs work and OkRs this and OkRs that? And then at some point he said, well, people, they're just goals, right? And I think, you know, in essence, that's what they really are. They're just goals. And so the question is, why is it that organizations are failing to move the needle with OkRs today? And to explain that, the presentation is in three parts. So first, I want to tell you a story about the road to failing with OkRs. And then in part two, I'm going to give you five things to pay attention to to ensure the success of OkRs. And then part three, why is this time actually to make OkRs lean again? So this is the story. So the story about Business Finder and Business Finder is a non-existing company, but it illustrates pretty much how most companies that I encounter work today. It is a cloud-native SaaS Caleb company, and they're helping sales team to find new business matches faster. The selling subscriptions to the app. They have a freemium model and a paid model, and they have around, you know, 200K to 650K MMR over the last five years, which is pretty okay. And they have about 150 employees distributed over multiple countries. And, well, the company wants to grow to what they call the next level, right? That's the CEO, they want to grow the company to the next level. And therefore the problem is that there's a low employee engagement. So engagement is low, employees are leaving the company and find it really hard to find new talent. And the guy on this picture, his name is Pedro. And also Pedro was a non-existing person in this case, but he has a role in Business Finder. He joined Business Finder three months already. He's an HR manager. And he has about 10 years of experience in HR. And he's joining the company and the CEO asked him, hey, Pedro, can you help us solve this problem for us? And so this is the journey. It's the journey, the road to failing with OKRs. So the problem was employee engagement. So Pedro was thinking about, you know, how bad can it be? How bad can our employee engagement be? So he has some experience, you know, he's already 10 years in the profession. So he knows, you know, I'm going to run a survey. I'm going to run a survey in the company with the question, you know, do you like working here? Or how much do you recommend this working place to somebody else, right? Maybe to some of your friends. And this is pretty famous in the field of HR. It's called EMPS, employee net promoter score. It's the score and how much you are willing to promote your workspace to somebody else. So he did the survey and results were, you know, pretty much negative, which he was expecting, right? Four out of ten. And then he's entering his research phase. So he thought about, you know, what can we do? What can we do about, you know, increasing this employee engagement? And he was reading a lot of articles. He asked peers, he asked his friends, you know, what can I do to increase that low employee engagement? And then, you know, it was Sunday morning. He was, you know, eating his breakfast. And he was reading in his favorite HR magazine about this tool called OKRs, Objectives and Key Results. And it was reading it. And he found it really interesting. And then all of a sudden he said, oh, this is great, you know, if you implement this tool, you get better alignments. You can turbocharge your business with that. And all these popular magazines talk about OKRs. Google is using it. So this should be great, right? This must be great. So he was reading about it. He was reading a little bit more books about it. I think this is the thing that I want to implement. This is the thing that is going to help us with increasing employee engagement. And, you know, based on the experience, he knows, OK, if he, if he's going to do this, we also need to have a tool. And that tool also need to be integrated with all the existing tools that we already have, right? That needs to be integrated with Slack, that needs to integrate with Trello, Mumble, whatever tooling that you have out there. So it needs to be integrated because he knows, you know, if you're going to implement this tool, people needs to be integrated with all these other things. So he was, you know, what everybody should do, right? He was typing in OKR software in Google, and he got about 1.7 million results back on OKR software. So I thought, OK, no, let's first diverge and make a list of all the tools that we see. So he was reading, you know, the Internet selected a lot of tools and more tools. And, you know, finally, he selected one of his tools. Great. He thought this is a perfect match. It integrates with all the other tools. And by the way, the nice folks about the OKR software company, they also offered certification. And he thought, oh, this is amazing. They also can also offer certification. So we get some training in. And I know our intern, she has some spare time. So she can maybe join the certification. There's also the head of engineering or the engineering manager. He also has some training budget leftovers. So he can also do the certification. And then of course, we have an agile coach. And, you know, all of you agile coaches are the company-wide meeting facilitators. Right. So also the agile coach can go to the certification. So after a couple of months, everybody got certified. Well, actually it took them one day to get certification. So everybody got certification. The intern, the engineering manager and the agile coach. They all got certification. Great. So let us check how Petro is doing. And this is the PHI index. And PHI index stands for the Petro Happiness Index. And the Petro Happiness Index is now 10 out of 10. Because he's really happy. You know, he found a solution to his potential problem to improve employee engagement. But let's check in for a moment, right? Just a short mini moment of the truth. At this moment, Petro spent a lot of time and does money on researching the topic on buying a lot of tools and getting certification from defender. At this moment, the needle hasn't moved a bit so far. But maybe that's going to come in a later stage. So the next thing Petro learned is that we want to convert all the things that we do, we want to convert them to OKRs. So how does it work? Well, all the existing KPIs in the company, they're going to convert it to OKRs. We have goals in the company, like personal development goals. We have sprint goals. We have project goals. They're all going to be converted into OKRs. And then we also have some desires from people and, you know, especially the higher managers that say, oh, great is OKRs. Let's also convert some of our ideas to OKRs as well. And then, of course, the big cascade happens. So it always starts with, you know, the company annual OKR. Then it gets decomposed into all the different departments. So we have the marketing department. We have the engineering department with the product department. We have the QA department. We have the sales department, etc. Finance department, and they all have their OKRs, right? And then it's going to cascade down in the organization. Then each team in each of these departments also need to have OKRs, right? So the team A, team B, team C, they also need OKRs. And everything needs to be connected back to the department level OKRs. And, well, before you know it, you get this idea, right? So the CEO has four objectives and a couple of key results. Then all the VP engineers or the VP's, sorry, the CFOs, CRO, all of them have OKRs. Then their teams have OKRs. Then each individual, they have OKRs. How's Petru do so far? Well, seven out of 10. He's not really amused because he thought, oh, I thought this was easier, right? When I was reading all the books, this should be easy, but it turns out it's not that easy. It took a lot of time to make sure that everybody has their OKRs. But he also thinks, now everybody individually needs OKRs, right? Because that's what you've learned online and in the books to also add personal OKRs. And so inside each of these teams, all the individuals, all the individual members of these teams, so the software engineers, UX engineers, the marketing people inside these teams, sales people inside, they all need to have their individual OKRs. And well, not a lot of people liked filling in these kind of things, right? Filling in their OKRs. So they did a trick, you know, let's send out an email to everybody in the company. So please fill in your individual OKRs before next Friday, 5 p.m. end of day, right? And well, they got some response and everybody was filling in their OKRs. And well, before they knew it, they get this crazy amount of OKRs in the company, right? And those who are familiar with Lean knows that, you know, keeping a large inventory is a form of waste. Well, I'm going to talk about it in a moment, but they have this tremendous amount of OKRs. But luckily, they have this OKR software tool to manage all these OKRs, right? So everybody has the OKRs. Now it's actually time to start managing with these OKRs, right? And what happens a lot is that people are setting their OKRs at the beginning of the quarter or beginning of the year, and then they forget about them, right? They set their OKRs beginning and then maybe at the end of the quarter, at the end of the 90 days, which is a typical OKR cycle, they refuel the OKRs and they thought like, oh, nothing has been moved, right? And because of, you know, the whirlwind, it's about our day job. And our day job is going to prevent us from achieving, making any significant impact on our OKRs, right? Because we need to put out fires, customers are coming to us with new requests, other teams are, you know, disturbing us, on Slack, people are interrupting us. We don't have time to work on these OKRs, right? And Pedro was, well, a bit afraid like, how's this going to work out, right? So on a scale of 5 out of 10 at this moment, Pedro is not in a happy camper. He thought it was going to be easier. And then you get these conflicting priorities. So every individual team created their OKRs, all the individuals created their own OKRs, and one team wanted to have help from another team. And he said, well, we can't help you because we have our OKRs. And that's the most important thing we're going to work on. So, no, I'm sorry, we can't help you, right? We have our SLA contracts between each other, but, you know, we can't help you, right? And this concept, I like this, this is from Elon Musk and he got this factor thinking, right? So every individual, every team in the company is like a little factor. And, well, it's an illusion that you get all these factors into a north position, right? So, but at least you should try. And, you know, if all the teams have individual OKRs, they're all pointing to different directions, right? And that's, of course, not the idea behind OKRs that, you know, everybody's pointing to different locations. So, and Pedro is a little bit afraid at this moment. He thinks like, oh, I'm not sure how this is going to work out. So three out of ten for Pedro, because he thought, you know, OKR should help with alignment and with focus. But the opposite is true. So three months later, right, everybody had OKRs that were working on it. At least if they were not interrupted. And, well, actually, there was a little progress. So metrics did not move. There was poor check-ins happening. There was little feedback happening coming from from from customers or others. There was no top-down alignment. There was no horizontal coordination happening. There was no learning from mistakes. And there was zero experimentation happening, right? And at this moment, Pedro said, OK, I'm not sure what to do anymore. Two out of ten. But then, of course, after a couple of months, then the big moment of truth, the real moment of truth is that, well, the annual performance review. Let's look at the EAMPS scores and look at all the other things. And then the CEO of BusinessFinder came to Pedro as like, you know, after all this investment, OKRs have to be proven a bad methodology. It was not helping us. And police are still, you know, leaving the company EAMPS score is still low. Yesterday, I had a meeting with one of our investors and they talked about V2MOM, right? This is a big thing from Salesforce. Maybe let's let's try that instead, right? I think it's a better fit for us or, you know, V2MOM or GSM or whatever framework you want to put in place as a replacement of OKRs. But of course, you know, none of them are going to work. So how's Pedro doing so far? Well, he thinks he's really angry. I don't know what to do. Maybe I should leave the company and he has no idea. So what's the fable in the story? The fable in the story is that, well, the company didn't have any strategy, right? There was no strategy. People are just implementing OKRs for the sake of implementing OKRs without, you know, thinking about why are we using it? And so they go only to execution mode. So we just run OKRs and we were very dogmatic about it and just implement them, implement them and see if it gets us any benefit. And of course, this is a famous story of failure. And I see many, many companies out there having a similar story. I'm exaggerating a little bit here, but most of the ingredients in the story, unfortunately, are true for many companies. So what are the five pitfalls you want to avoid and you want to overcome when you're going to implement OKRs? If you read about OKRs and think like, hmm, this sounds an interesting tool for our company, here are some things that you need to pay attention to when you're going to implement them. So first is the right trigger. In the story that I just explained, there was a wrong trigger. EMPS, for example, the employee engagements is the wrong trigger to start using OKRs, I would say. So and most of the OKR initiatives are coming from HR and, well, frankly speaking, I don't think that's a good idea. And why is that? Well, OKRs are about strategy execution and HR is not responsible for strategy, right? It's the executive team of the company that is responsible for the strategy of the company. So they should own this. Let's start with them. So EAPS or, well, we want to use OKRs because we want better alignment. Well, you don't get better alignments from OKRs. You saw in the story, OK, alignment only got worse. So focus is another argument. But if you're going to transform all your existing goals into OKRs, then, well, you don't get any focus. So engagement should not be an argument to start using OKR or we just want to grow. Well, no, you need to have a strategy. If you don't have a strategy, you cannot use OKRs. According to say that again, if you don't have a strategy, OKRs are useless. So you need to have a strategy, company strategy, product strategy, any strategy would work. And then it could help you get this 10x growth if you want. I'm not saying that every company should chase 10x. So how can you do that? Well, first of all, I heard a lot of companies complaining about OKR setting and finding the right key results and finding the right metrics. It's so hard. And yeah, of course, because you're not used to work in an environment where you're collecting a lot of data, where people are used to work with metrics. So one of the things I always suggesting before you even start working with OKRs is first develop your strategy, but also create something like a value creation model where you're going to model out how everything is related to each other in terms of outcomes of the company. And so in this picture, you see that customer lifetime value has a link to month recurring revenue or turn rate has an impact. Or in this case of business finder, matching speed, how fast can people match, how fast are sales team going to find a match, right? And that will result in improving customer satisfaction, which will improve MPS, which can maybe improve on LTV, something like that. And then as a company, as the executive team, you can say, OK, no, based on our competitive analysis, we know that focusing on matching speed is the most important thing for our company. And that's why we're going to spend some focus on for the next 90 days or maybe the next year or something like that. And then OKRs can actually work. But without this model, without making such a model, it's very hard to find metrics and to find causality between those metrics. And no wonder that teams find it hard to set good metrics for them. But the other step is preparation. When you're going to implement OKRs, I just mentioned a little bit, you need to have, if you don't have baseline data, it's very hard to set OKRs. So you need to have some kind of metrics. You need to have your systems already instrumented with metrics. And don't try to go for the perfect OKRs. It's a learning experience. So OKRs is all about learning to get feedback from the customers, learning and how they use your systems. And then you can set goals if you figure that out. So also you need to have a very high skill level inside your teams. Doing OKRs or working data-driven or making data-informed decisions is very tough. And if your team is still struggling to implement Scrum, for example, and don't master continuous delivery, then how can you do five or maybe 10 experiments per week in production? If you can't have, if you don't have this continuous delivery capability, for example, right? Or if your teams are not being involved in exploration of the problem, if that is outsourced to, for example, a product manager or a product owner, which is, you know, now I'm going to do the hard work. I'm going to figure out and do all the customer interviews and customer talking. And then I'll come up with requirements and then I'll give it to you, team. And you can start developing it and basically creating a feature factory, right? Where all the hard work is being done by a product owner or product manager and then basically handing out requirements so the engineer only need to type in, right? It's a classic model of failure. So what you want to have in status, of course, you want to have the strategy, you need to understand why you want to do OKRs. Why is it important, why is it important right now? Collect data, make sure that you have effective team collaboration, that you get the whole team included into exploration about the problem, exploration about the solution. And of course, you should have some extent on technical excellence. If you're going to use OKRs for product development in a technical area, you need to have technical excellence because you need to master continuous deployment. Otherwise, it will be very hard for you to do to run any experiments, I would say. And I put it at number three, but actually it's number one. Culture, I think it's really important to build in trust and to empower your teams with OKRs. So if there's no trust in your organization, if managers don't trust their teams to run experiments or to learn new things, OKRs won't work, right? Because OKRs are always about new things. OKRs are always about changing, about change. And in any change management, you need to make sure that people are feeling safe to run experiments, to try out new things, to make sure that they change or they figure out a way how to change the behavior of customers. So if there's no client ability, it doesn't work. If you don't check in on a regular basis with your OKRs, there's no, that doesn't work. If there's no learning, if you don't get any feedback, like I said before, if you can't run weekly experiments, or if there's no mechanism to get customer feedback or to get feedback from your systems, it's very hard to understand if you're going into the right direction. So instead, you need to have buy-in from the top when you're doing OKRs, right? If you're working in a large organization, maybe not the whole executive team should be included. So maybe only the VP of product or something like that. But at least the executive team should know about them and should support that effort. There should be a high level of trust and safety inside these teams. And coaching should be here. And I'm not talking about agile coaching in particular. Also managers need to start coaching their teams. So it's not enough to work together with a team and define an OPR for a particular team. The team has maybe some difficulty on moving the needle. And so, yes, they maybe need agile coaching or team coaching, but they also need to be coached technically. They also need to be coached in business, right? So moving to OPRs also means moving away from the traditional management styles of delegating work. And that's a big mindset shift. And last but not least, I think people should have a growth mindset, right? If you're going to start setting challenging goals, you need to be able to understand that you can change. And that the whole team is going to change to work on a very ambitious result. So these are things that need to be implemented. And that's why working with OPRs is so hard, right? It requires a big shift in the whole organization, not only for teams, but including management and including executives. So point number four is simplicity. In the example, in the story that I told before, you saw that there is this crazy amount of OPRs, right? But if you have a strategy, you can make decisions. And you can focus. And if you have a company and you have five top-level OPRs, and then each department also have five OPRs, and then each team will have three OPRs, and each individual needs three OPRs. Yeah, then you're ending up with a lot of OPRs in the organization. And no wonder that you need to have an OPR tool to start managing all these tools, right? So if you're in a company, you should only have like one OPR, and maybe three key results, three or four key results, maximum, at company level. And then depending on how large the organization is, each team need maybe one OPR as well. But ideally, teams share an OPR with each other, right? This is how you get collaboration between them. So let's say you have an organization of 150 people like Mrs. Piner in this case. They probably need maybe four or five OPRs in a whole company, maximum. And that all fits on one sheet of paper. So just to give you an idea about how simple your OPR should be. And then I love the statements from James Clear from Atomic Habits. And he said, well, you should forget about goals, right? So focus on systems instead. And what he meant with that is that, well, if you don't have a system, setting, you can set goals whatever you want, but yeah, it doesn't work. So maybe if some New Year's resolutions or you say, well, next year, I want to be, I want to, well, I want to do exercise more. I want to eat healthier or something like that. And well, maybe the first month you're going to do that, but the month after and the next month after, you know, interest will drop and well, you forget about that, right? You're not going to change your behavior. So you need to have a system in place so that you keep reminded about the goal and that you're going to continue doing that. And all of this is captured in the method that I'm described in my book. And so you don't need dedicated OPR software, right? You don't need to like a big, a big bloated process to set OPRs. There shouldn't be any more meetings with OPRs. There shouldn't be any micro management happening in, you know, setting OPRs instead of setting forgetting about it. And you should change your mindset when you're thinking about OPRs and working with OPRs. So that's what I try to capture in what I call lean OPRs. To make everything small and lean again. Hopefully people are starting to love OPRs again. So how are you going to make your OPRs lean? I already give some ideas. So what I see is that there are three things that you need to get, that you need to get in shaping in company versus the foundation. And you need to have the basics implemented. So that means that you need to have a strategy, a mission vision and strategy. You need to understand how metrics work and what's the difference between a measure and a metric and an indicator or KPI because there are differences between them. How you can set a single OPR for your company or for your team. How you write good OPRs. A lot of people struggle with that. And how do you work and how do you create and power teams? And last but not least, understand that doing OPRs, working with OPRs, you're in the field of behavior change. So you're changing either your employees' behavior or you're going to change the behavior of your customers. But behavior change is really hard. So understand these foundational elements of OPRs. And then of course you need to have system in place to make sure that you get, to make sure that you're going to achieve your goals. And then last, you need to build up the skills and competencies and I think also the mindset to start working with them. So I'm going to, I don't have time to highlight all of them, but I'm going to focus on three of them. The single OPR, the weekly check-ins, and what I think is important is scientific thinking. So you need to have a lightweight system, a lightweight governance process to implement your OPRs and make sure that you have a system in place to make sure that you harness and harden your OPR. And this is a very lightweight process. So don't think about the big brother process. It always starts with a strategy. So you need to have a strategy and that will inform what kind of OPR you can set for the company. So that's the first step. So you need to set an OPR and that's a company level. The executive team sets an OPR and at levels below, it's a collaboration between managers and their teams. Then you're going to align the OPR, you're going to align with other people in the team. You're going to align with other people in the organizations. And so there's some kind of back and forth. So there's only like one arrow, but there should also be an arrow back. And so it's a back and forth between sending and aligning with each other. Then you're going to do kickoff. Like this is the OPR. We're going to make everything transparent in the organization. This is the OPR that we're going to focus on for the next 90 days. Then you're going to start executing it. And executing means that you're going to do two things. One is Monday morning, you're going to do a check-in. Just check on the OPR. Like how we're doing OPR-wise with our team or with our company. And then at the end of the week, also celebrate things that you've learned, things that didn't work out or be happy about that you have made some progress. And then at the end of the cycle, you're going to do a review retrospective. You can also do that mid-quarter or after 45 days. Just, you know, understand how are we doing with OPRs? How are we doing with the process? How are we doing with the metrics? Do we need help? What can we learn from that? And take those learnings back into the next cycle. And then the whole thing repeats. The setting, the OPR for business finer, for example, could be something like that. So I talked about that the strategy was, oh, we want to focus on making the business match, find new quality or new quality business matches faster. And why do we want that? Well, because we want to have satisfied customers to talk about this positively. If we solve their problem, they're going to talk about us. And if they talk about us, maybe also they stay longer with us. So retention is higher, right? And then we have some key results to start measuring that. So we want to increase the number of profiles that exchange messages with a new contact within 24 hours or less. And we also want to increase the efforts or courtesy of business matches from 42 to 85. Because if the accuracy of business matches, if we make perfect matches for these people, they will come back to us, right? So we know that the courtesy and the matching is really important to us. So this is just an example. And this is where the whole company is going to focus on for the next 90 days. And notice that there's no solutions in there. There are no tasks. Only the outcomes here that needs to change. So this is how you can focus on a single OCR for the whole company, right? And then if everybody's focusing on that, that is amazing. And then the other part is the weekly check-ins. I think this is one of the most important things in OCRs. You need to make sure that the OCR stays top of mind and that you're actually going to track some progress against the OCR that you have. So every check-in can be integrated with existing meetings. So if you're, for example, doing a daily stand-up, it can be perfectly integrated into the daily stand-up of Monday, for example, right? A check-in, you know, just takes about 15 minutes, no longer, right? So an every check-in, you're going to focus on these four elements. You're going to focus on the OPR. You're going to focus on your health of the team or health of the company. You're going to look at some obstacles and you're going to find some experiments. So how does it look for business finder? Well, one of the objectives is, well, one of the team objectives in this case will be, oh, we want to boost the business completion rate of SMB profiles. And we have a couple of key results and we're going to give a confidence score to that. So how confident as a team do we feel that at the end of the 90 days, we're going to make this, that we're going to nail this? Well, there's some concerns. There's one happy smiling face and one not so happy smiling face. And let's look at the health of the team. So while we're working on the OPR, we also need to pay attention to maybe SLA contracts or other things like in this case, it's a very technical team. They want to measure the throughput of our critical APIs and that needs to be okay, right? If the throughput of these APIs are below certain thresholds, the team needs to take action, right? And that's more important than the OPR. Are they still learning every week or are the customers still happy? Yeah, everything is green. Okay, so great, we can continue. And then, well, this onboarding completion rate, that was actually not that great. So can we maybe start defining some obstacles? What are things that are in our way to getting a little bit closer to that? If you frame them as questions, that is always great, because it will trigger some ideas and solutions in people. So if you define these obstacles, then we can maybe start running some, or start defining some experiments. You can also include that in your sprint planning, for example. So if you're doing the OCR check-in before you do a sprint planning, because then you can take the input of what you've learned from the OCR to your sprint planning, something like that. But most teams that work with OCRs, they don't use scrum. So, yeah, you can think about that as well. But you can think about some experiments that you want to try out. You're going to try them and you're going to review to check if they're making any impact on, in this case, onboarding completion rates. What kind of things can we do? Can we run an experiment online? Can we deploy a small piece of software to a limited group? And can we learn from that? So this is the OCR check-in, which is really important. And if you think about it, it's all ingrained in what's called scientific thinking. And those with you that's having a lean background, you probably recognize this from Toyota Cuda. And OCRs are similar. So you can define the challenge, which is your OCR. This is 90 days from now. It's in the future. It's the thing that we want to change. Then we need to grab the current condition. So what is our baseline data? If you make a picture today about our company, about our team, what's true about that? So that's the current condition. You can maybe back it up with some data. And then we know that the challenge is quite ambitious. So can we maybe break it down into smaller pieces that we can influence directly? And can we maybe list some obstacles? So if you define the obstacles, just like you saw in the OCR check-in, we have to define some obstacles. And then we can start running some experiments. So some technical teams are maybe familiar with running spike stories just to try things out, run an experiment, talk to a customer, get some feedback, doing an interview, making a prototype, just to see and check out what works and what doesn't work. And then we can maybe proceed and then, oh, this works. Now we have taken a step in the right direction and the process continues. But the scientific thinking, this mindset, is often lacking in many, many, many teams that I've seen out there. Just give me the requirements, I will start working. And then don't think about, oh, what's the impact of this story or what's the impact of this feature if you're going to release it to customers? And many teams that just ship the feature and then forget about it. But yeah, did the feature actually make impact? Is the feature that you've developed to production, is it still, is it being used by people? Are customers benefiting from it? So this can be applied to software development, but this also, of course, can be applied to changing your organization. So enough of that. So if you want to learn more about lean OKRs and how you can move the needle, then check out the book. It's on my website. There's a, if you want to buy them in bulk, then just send me a message. I'm happy to provide you with a bulk maybe for everybody in the company. Or if you are really serious about OKRs and say, oh, Bart, I really want to take this to the next level, then let me know. I'm happy to talk about it. So that's it. Ten-hub, that is just one question. Maybe you could answer that. Yeah. Oh, I see. Yeah, one question, one question, maybe very quickly. I've seen OKRs mostly set top down in cascading manner. However, 60% of the objectives should be bottom up as per John Dorr. How do we get better alignment with OKRs? Yeah, so it's a combination of indeed top down. So leadership executive team should set the higher level of OKRs because it's related to the strategy. But I think it's a myth that the teams should then come up with the OKR. Because teams that don't have the overview of how everything is going to be connected. So I think there should be strong collaboration between management and the teams. So I think management can set objectives. This is the direction team I want you to go. But the teams define the key results. So the teams shouldn't, in my opinion, create the whole OKR. They shouldn't create the objectives and the key results. They should only do the key results and have a conversation with the manager. It's a collaboration between managers and the team to define good key results. But managers are, frankly speaking, they should own the objectives. They are responsible for that. So yeah, I think that's a lot of confusing coming from that. If you have a really mature team in Google, they're really mature product teams. They can set their own objectives and key results. But in most organizations, it's a top-down and bottom-up approach where managers set the objectives, teams set the key results. So I hope that answers the question. Even I have some questions. So I'll join the Hangout table. All right. Super. I have some questions on the measurements and then how we can link, I think, and how we can correlate with the user story, so let's join the Hangout table. Thanks. Thank you again.