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You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications bell so you are notified for when my next podcast goes live. I'm Boomer on and today's guest we've got the legendary Mike Skinner. How are you Mike? I'm good, I'm good. I'm slightly concerned about all your cables all over the floor although you are a man after my own heart I think because I've just finished making a film and I didn't put sandbags on my lights and stuff fell over a lot. But you have to focus on the important stuff, don't you? Yeah, that's it. So if light falls mate, we'll deal with that problem if it comes. Because absolute legend grew up listening to your stuff still listening to your stuff blinded by the lights. Fit and you know it. Fit but you know it. Just legendary stuff. I know you've got your number one albums, number one song you were in the charts for many years. You're just like a massive fan. It's an absolute honour to have you here. Yeah, thank you for having me. Drive your eyes mate. Fucking hell, another classic. So many but before we get into everything I always like to go back to the start of my guest. Get a bit of understanding about you Mike. Where you grew up and how it all began. Well I mean I think the thing that really I guess like defined me was that I was born in North London or Barnett depending on how you define London. And when I was quite young my family moved to Birmingham and so I kind of lived this slightly dual life really where I was I was I went to school in Birmingham but my dad was very much felt like a Londoner and my brother actually seemed like a Londoner as well because he was that much older when we moved. You know he was older than me. So yeah I went to school in Birmingham and I don't think anyone really feels like they fit in or I don't think it's uncommon for people to not feel like they fit in but I certainly didn't feel like I fit in. And I was always I was always into taking stuff apart. That's another thing I would say. And so yeah I just I think those are the things that define a person. I think whether or not you know how like your parents I feel like everyone's everyone's trying to make up for the mistakes that they feel like their parents made. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But you don't know what mistakes your parents were making up for their parents making. Does that make sense? Yeah. Because it's difficult. Parents don't open up either. No. You only learn this length behaviors. Yeah. But your father was a lot older was he not? Yes. What age was he? Yeah that's another thing. So he was my mum was his second marriage and so he was yeah he was he was much older than my mum. And he yeah the things that he would say were more like looking back on it were more like what a grandparent would say. Do you feel as if you missed out on like I wouldn't say our father your father was there but do you feel as if you missed out on our father on that sort of way because it wasn't at your age? No no no the opposite actually I feel like I got a better dad. I mean I wasn't I was never really into running about outside that much. I mean we did we used to get on our bikes and stuff but I didn't need my dad to be in goal for me to take penalties. So no I think that yeah I genuinely felt like I had a he I don't know he just he just wasn't he just wasn't like other dads he was much more like Yoda than a dad you know and and who wouldn't want Yoda as their dad really. What were you like at school? Just did you feel different at school? Not really no I mean I didn't really know I mean I think I was pretty I was talking to my mum the other the other night and she was we were talking about oh we're talking about my kids that's right and my mum said that I was always I was always a performer and I was I was kind of like well no I wasn't I mean I never wanted to be like on the stage or anything like that I wanted to I wanted to be a producer like I wanted to make music but I didn't I never saw myself as being an artist like that but what I didn't realize was I was always showing off basically and that's what my mum was saying you were always a show-off but I guess and so I guess when I ended up being a performer I was I was probably suited to it yeah as much as that makes me feel bad like a show-off I mean we hate what we are right? Why do you think that? We spoke about men and never known like for me as well I'm flying in life but I never feel good enough I always feel something missing there's always goals we talk about being the best in the UK being the best in the world but when I achieve those goals it's like an emptiness a loneliness and I've always thought that's where you would find this magic portion or whatever it is to fulfill the pain or whatever it is we're chasing I genuinely don't know myself I just know what I'm doing is the right thing for me it makes sense people around me feel better and do better but there's always that element of something's missing yeah I mean when you become the biggest podcast in the world you will you will have a massive party and then you will suddenly realize that you're no happier and that will feel a bit weird for a while but it doesn't mean I think I think I think when you learn that success or whatever your dreams are don't make you happy you then sort of after that realize that you what does make you happy is trying to achieve your dreams that does make you happy so it's actually it is about trying to be the number one podcast in the world but it's not about becoming the number one podcast in the world it's about feeling like you can do it so I think that emptiness or that thing that you're seeking out it's kind of turning that into a positive for yourself and your families and the people that work for you's lives how was your grades at school? well because I know you played a lot of instruments you've guitar you've done a lot yeah I played guitar for a while I mean I'm certainly not I'm not a musician really I mean I can you know a bit like you know I've got certain recipes that I can cook but I'm not a chef I was always more into taking I mean the sampling was the was the technology of our time really so it was we would have I guess we were the first generation that didn't really need to be a musician to make music and I still have that in me really I'd prefer to be to try to look down on my own music rather than because you know I'll write a lot of songs and then I tend to put them away and then try and listen back to them as a listener rather than I try to be the listener rather than the maker if that makes sense what was the first song you'd ever written? well I mean I never really I don't remember I mean I would have been my dad got me a keyboard when I was probably seven or something and I was I don't remember a time when I wasn't writing songs I really I don't remember that before there was never a moment that I remember I was just always I was always doing it in different ways I for a while I I mean I used to write raps when I was yeah probably about eight really my brother used to listen to rap music and I used to record myself trying to pretend to do that and then and then as you say I as I there would I had different phases so for a while I I got into the guitar and used to play the guitar and and then and then other times I was recording using like I had a four track and like different sort of tape tape players and stuff and then and then I got really into house music dance music and so it was a kind of as the technology changed starting off literally with a Casio keyboard and then going all the way up to sort of trying to actually be some kind of studio engineer guy whatever who was your inspiration because you're for me your music's genius because nobody's done it it was never heard or seen before not my time on the planet anyway it was different and people gravitated towards that so for me again it's genius your capabilities and your mindset of the writing and the producing and everything that you've done it for me you're a genius but it's how did how were you doing it how did you who was your inspiration because it's different from anybody I've ever listened to yeah I mean I never really well I mean probably my someone like it would be someone like Thomas Bangalta and Daft Punk I really they had a huge impact on me and then also rappers like you know and producers Dr. Dre I was obsessed yeah DJ Premier before that I was I was always actually more into producers than rappers even though I do I do I do love rappers but it was always to me it was more about the whole thing rather than being like an emcee and you know and I've always I've always even with my stuff I've always to me the main thing is making the song and performing the song to me is really just kind of just turning up after that whereas I you know a lot of people are the other way around they're very much like the performance is the thing and the CD or you know the the the mix the album is is kind of is really a way of getting to the performance but it's because of technology I think because I'm so into technology with music it's it's it's really about the it's about the song to me so yeah a bit of a bit of a geek really compared with I probably what what you might expect do you have a photographic memory no I have a really bad memory and I know that because it takes me ages to to learn my own songs are you trying to find perfection well I think yeah maybe I guess I am a perfectionist but I'm also just I just really hate not knowing what I'm doing when I'm supposed to be doing it I mean shows I can't imagine anything worse than being on stage not knowing the words to the song that is literally a nightmare to me that's the sort of thing that I mean if you you know if you imagine most people's nightmares it often involves something like that right being in front of a load of people not knowing what you're supposed to do so I don't know whether that makes me a perfectionist but I but I when you do know what you're doing it's really good fun this episode is sponsored by fire away pizza the fastest growing pizza company in the UK with over 150 stores with their fresh quality ingredients and unique pizzas they will have you coming back for more use code James 20 for 20% off that's James 20 for 20% off see I've not got a fucking clue what I'm doing my god there's no questions yeah my mind works three questions if I'm someone I'll think three questions I'll create like a story in my mind that's just if I sit with questions I throws me off my interview because then I just it's too planned for me even though when I see you looking at the wires and that you're you're kind of stressing everything out and how you would maybe set it up or how you would maybe have it safer for me and fuck it wires are everywhere no no it's we just shoot the shit that it's amazing how long would it take you to then memorize a song for you to go okay I've got it oh I mean yeah I mean it would it would probably I mean it takes it takes kind of takes the whole tour really I mean to it there's it's a bit like it's like how well how well how well do you want to know something I mean you could yeah I mean if I if I compare like even even newer songs to older songs I mean older songs I can literally do them in my sleep like I can do them yeah I can I can I can I can daydream I think that's the thing it's like on like if you're if you the adrenaline's up and you can do the song and you can daydream or it's it's for me it's like it's almost like a sign that you're you're able to relax is if your mind can actually wander away from it yeah that that takes years what's it like when you're adrenaline goes through the roof because you seem quite a cool character where even your videos everything's quite it's a breeze is that because it's repetition over the time or have you learned to be that way over the years to just be kinda cool and collective yeah I wouldn't call myself a relaxed person I do I do think that you if you're I don't want to say discipline because I'm not actually really lazy but I do I do think that you it's worth doing things properly somehow when I was younger I used to burn myself out trying to because you're worried that you're not doing anything well enough and actually as you get older you realize what you actually have to do is to is to do a little bit every day sort of thing because as long as you do one thing every day I think and actually if you try to go too hard you you end up giving up because you tie yourself out whereas I think so I'm not I'm not sure yeah I'm definitely not relaxed though but I do make sure I know what I'm doing which makes it seem like I'm relaxed when are you at your happiest well when I'm on the tour bus yeah I love a tour bus it reminds me of going camping it's kind of like it's the sleeping while you're driving thing because you never normally sleep while you're driving do you because even if you're in a car you're you're sat up but when we were kids we used to sleep on the way you know on holiday there's something I think in that I get from and just waking up in a new place every day it takes you back to your childhood there's definitely something about sleeping on a tour bus that takes me back to my childhood yeah I mean I would it's definitely not glamorous a tour bus it's a bit like I imagine being on a submarine you know there's like 15 people really I mean you're really in a space that's about this big but there's 15 of you for weeks so it's um but you have a bunk you know which is just a single bed with a curtain and uh I think it suits my there's something about having all of your belongings in a really small space that really works for me because I am very lazy that's mad how I get shit done you've smashed it as well so do you think we only think that to push ourselves to keep trying though I think it's with me because if you'd have if you'd have worked with me at the jobs I did before I did music for a living I think you would have thought I was I was never going to amount to anything because I was so bad I was so awful at my jobs what sort of job did you do well my first job was Burger King but my kids always tell me that I'm constantly talking about Burger King which I didn't think I did do that but apparently I always talk about Burger King do you start wheat from Burger King I think when you eat three Burger Kings a day you get sick of them I prefer Burger King to anything else to be fair the chips and the burgers are tastier I believe I definitely had too many Burger Kings there is such a thing how is that feeling in Burger King did you have any disrespect to anybody that works there did you have that vision that there was more I was trying to be a musician I was trying to be a producer really making music garage or house music or rap music but it didn't seem it didn't seem possible really to be living in Birmingham and to say that you were going to be a musician it just wasn't something how are you going to do that then I don't think I ever really knew how that was going to happen but I certainly tried back then it was sending demos to people things are so much better now you just have to find an audience right we can be here now just talking about stuff and then really the only thing you've got to do is to give people conversations that they like listening to it's really that simple if you do that enough times you will be rewarded by the algorithm but when I was trying to do it it felt like you were going to have to get the attention of someone in London basically or just at a label or something so yeah I spent a lot of time making music and sending people the music looking back really looking back on it the rejection was because I wasn't making music that was very interesting it would either be something a bit like something else or it just wouldn't be very good and I think at the time it would be easy to think well what am I doing wrong but actually if I was advising someone now there's so much music out there that is a bit like something else that's always the case most music is a bit like something else isn't it? it's very rare that stuff isn't that's got something new about it or it's just really well done and so in a way I think I probably didn't have it any harder than anyone else I just had to find the thing that was different that people would notice but I do think there isn't that feeling now where you know the gatekeepers I don't think that really doesn't really exist anymore gatekeeping yeah how did you gate your break you made the max tape and went right into one of the companies yeah I did a song called has it come to this and I sent it to locked on well I sent it to a few different people but locked on got back to me and I was incredibly lucky because they were really really good people I think garage music was a bit like the wild west I think I was really lucky to find a corner of garage that was that were good people what was that feeling like when someone gave you an opportunity yeah so I was about 20 at that point yeah I mean it was it was 2000 really when I sent them the stuff and then probably it would have went into the charts it went into the charts I think that would have been either the end of 2000 or beginning of 2001 and then the album came after that original part material but the single came before yeah I mean it was funny looking back on it it was more of a feeling like I better not fuck this up that was really all I was thinking don't fuck this up so there was just a lot of I didn't allow myself to enjoy it which I'm glad I didn't I think if you allow yourself to enjoy things at 21 it's a bad you shouldn't be I would have been at my fucking prime then mate 2004 probably your biggest year blinded by the lights dry your eyes massive it was banger after banger number one was it dry your eyes went to number one see when that hits number 18 and then you start doing well like you say is it to keep grounded because you know you only really get one chance at this industry yeah I mean I never really looked at it like an industry I mean it is and actually the feeling that I had was actually that I sort of imagined that everyone knew what they were doing and looking back on it there was some I worked with some incredible incredible people like my my creative at Warner they do everything that isn't the music basically so he was called Alan Parks and he was you know between him and you know a few of us we made some great artwork and music videos and stuff but I don't think it's the norm you know that sort of level of excellence you have to find it and almost and there's a lot that you have to ignore I think it's a lot or there's a lot you have to say no to like what well just things like so I mean one thing one thing that I did I was kind of on my own with in a way was was like the the clothes that I wore because everybody in it felt like everybody saw that it wasn't very fashionable and so I would they would sort of they would sort of give me I would say do you want to do you want to see a stylist or something and I think that and I probably should have seen a stylist but I would have ended up looking like a lot of other things from that time whereas I was very very very sure that I want that there were there weren't people on the TV that looked like the people that I I saw growing up so so you you have to yeah you so it's not a case of like focusing and being really conscientious it's about knowing enough that you can say no to everyone and carry the vision that it's like a little candle flame that you have to try and not go out were you ever scared of saying no in case they fucked you off because you know in that industry well there's always there's always if you say you know if you do a big enough no people think you're up here in an hour son up so I mean when I did the album it's just little things like it's like I did the album and then we were putting the single out and you know the radio say we can't play it needs to be more you need to get someone in to mix it and make it more higher production values and I think a lot of people would would crack under that pressure and say yeah we should send it to a mixed engineer and get it done properly but actually what ends up happening is is it it sort of dates it dates it because because everything it's kind of fashion everything's got a everyone's got a way of doing things at the moment that is not necessarily better it's just fashionable right now so it's very easy to end up wearing the same clothes as everyone else and giving your music the same sound as everything else and it dates it but I was I was young enough and I guess I was quite angry in some way I don't know just because just because that was my age and I was like no this this is what I'm doing and so there is a lot of that wall to hell with you know if you can't take this then I don't want to give it to you sort of thing it's saying no is definitely the hardest thing some of the artists get buttons compared to the ones who are producing and writing or did you have to get fucked over a few times to then understand it no I never got fucked over I mean I think you I've never encountered anyone really that was really I mean all I've ever encountered really is just a lot of I want to say no not laziness but people just have a way that they think everything should be and also it's a desperation really people are desperate to for their businesses to continue to be in business which is very difficult in music so yeah I mean you but I don't think it's I think coming back to what I said before I think if you you're able to say exactly what it is that you're doing and what you're like a good example is like if you take a big advance right so if you get record labels to argue amongst each other and you end up in a bidding war someone ends up paying half a million to sign you or whatever which is great but you're then in a position where you've got to be a pop artist to be in the top ten and as soon as as soon as you're in that situation where they're under huge pressure for this to sell this many records or do this many streams it can only be bad for your music because they're so desperate at that point so I always I always knew that I mean actually what I was trying to do at the beginning was to not have an advance I wanted to I realized after that actually that's a bit naive but it's I think it's better than having a massive advance and the guy basically is going to lose his job if you don't go to number one that's a terrible environment in which to try and do exciting new music gets people much better to be to not have that pressure and to feel like you're all against the world and that you but you're doing things in your own way. Yeah like a pressure cooker so he feels if people lose their purpose of music and who they are because of so much pressure so they then don't find what they actually set out to do. I think that's what everyone does with everything you know I think that's what you will face that will be the biggest thing you face it will be you'll do a couple of things they will really connect because it will be with someone who's really you know got crazy stories or something and then you'll you won't be able to help it but you'll be looking at your numbers and you'll be thinking well when I was doing that that was really big and now this isn't as big so when you're sort of when you're growing it's very easy to be yourself but the moment you start feeling like you're up against it in any way or you're not getting the same feeling you start doing what you think people want you to do and actually it's a race to the bottom and I think most of any creative industry is a bit of a race to the bottom there's people that do things that are massively exciting and new and then kind of pretty much most of the industry is trying to do that until the next thing comes along see when you 2004 came number one album and then fit but you know how was that feeling once you had bang it after bang it after bang it was fit but you know it and then dry your eyes and then blinded by the lights how was that feeling for you did you feel what you were achieving was unbelievable or were you just in that zone that you were talking about there it's like a bubble you keep taking things to a new level it was great I find it very difficult separating what I achieved with that point in my life anyway because life is great isn't it when you're 23 so I thought I'm not sure but you know I just happened to be travelling the world and no it was amazing it's difficult to know where I think the one thing that you have to have to develop is discipline most people you're sort of constrained you feel like you feel like everyone else is constrained by their life you know you have to go to work on Monday if you don't go to work on Monday you don't have a job but if you're a musician it doesn't really apply so you do have to at a very young age you have to develop discipline no one's going to stop you from just not recording another album it's sort of it winds me up a bit when people read the newspapers and think that there's some sort of evil industry out there that's killing all these pure musical talents somehow and I think A, the musicians are way more cynical and savvy than you think but yeah I mean of course if you allow people to take advantage of you then they will they'll always be someone there to take advantage of you but yeah there's a level of growing up I think that you have to do that I think other people don't have to do until maybe they're a bit older but there's also an element where you don't grow up as well because you act like a child but there's almost behind all of that acting like a child there is a knowledge that you could completely fuck all of this up if you don't have at least a mind to make sure the album gets done and make sure it's good do you know how much of a tune that was going to be because if I do podcast you know okay I've got that one did you have that feeling of this is the one no I mean it was obvious I think once we handed it in or once my manager heard it it became a thing it's so long ago that I don't actually think I really remember it all that well but no I mean I think I did I think I did know that they were singles I think but it's impossible to imagine your own music as being the soundtrack to people's lives I mean that's why you do it right you want people to you want that to happen and you try to make songs that people like but when you're so close to it like that you hear things in a completely different way you know you hear all of the things that you could have done or wanted to do when you came out smash hat what's the inspiration behind it was it a breakup of yours or was it just something that you'd well that album was a story right I mean I was really into script writing and film film structure and so I decided to do an album that was a story from beginning to end and the way yeah that just happened to be the moment in the story when when that happened but no it was I know in my head what that was about I think we all have one breakup in our life that completely or maybe put it another way you know you have a relationship where you think that's going to fix everything and then maybe you cling on to that too much and then but actually that's the worst thing you can do because that just makes that's just really unattractive right yeah you suffocate so I think that's what that song is about is that that one thing that I think we've all got I mean hopefully we've all got because I wouldn't want to meet a person who hadn't been through that I think they wouldn't have there wouldn't be a lot of humility in them love is powerful but love is painful everybody's been through heartache some more than others it is painful and it's the most beautiful thing in the world when you receive it but like you say we crave love relationships heal you for a very short time because it feels good it's fresh somebody likes you somebody's committed to you and it makes it appear because it brings up all traumas of both people and then that's where the niggling starts and then the falling out and then it's the pain men struggle I believe more than women with breakups because we don't really talk about them so we self-medicate we hide from it and it's painful and then when you've had a bad relationship you're kind of scared to do the same into another relationship because a lot of people self-sabotage because it's so fucking painful a breakup is worse than death it's because you feel it and you miss that connection and for me my one opinion everybody just wants to feel love on this planet yeah I that thing where you push someone away because you're scared that that they it's like you're doing the thing that you're really scared of happening aren't you that is such a human thing isn't it? it actually makes no sense whatsoever to fuck up a relationship because you're scared of I guess rejection is it? you're just protecting yourself because we don't truly become vulnerable because when you become vulnerable to love or vulnerable to being hurt that's when you'll find your purest form of love because you've surrendered to that feeling of getting hurt and no matter what we're all going to beat her up with a relationship whether she passes or you pass we're all going to separate one time so yeah why not just give it a go and go do you know what fuck it enjoy it if it doesn't last then so be it I feel as if so many people are stuck in ruts in relationships everybody's kind of confused with social media and technology these days it's not really as committed as back then yeah I mean I don't know how you feel like for me having kids was when I realized that it wasn't about me right and that actually made me a bit happier because I stopped thinking it was really about me I mean but I think yeah and I kind of feel the same with a it's kind of made me feel the same with a relationship as well it's it's I think when you stop thinking it's all about you and I don't mean because I think when I was younger I used to think well what is it you hear older people saying stuff like that and you think well what is it about then if it's not about me but it becomes about you it is as I think it is as it works as a selfish thing as well even if you're selfish it works to not worry about yourself and worry about other people because it's I feel like we've all got so much time now haven't we to think about things I mean even if you know even if you've got a job that you hate that's an awful lot of time to think about the job that you hate and so it's the moment that you're you're releasing yourself of that feeling happy the moment that you release yourself from that actually you start you're closer to something that is happiness how did you deal with being a household name then and become a celebrity how did you handle that having just said that I don't think I ever sabotaged a relationship because I was scared of losing it I definitely probably sabotaged my career because I just wanted to be really honest I think I think that's what I was going for was honesty and it worked at the beginning when people saw themselves in me they the honest that that worked but then I think what happens is you just become a completely different person or you don't feel like you feel like the same person but you suddenly start talking about things that people don't really can't get the heads around because it's like you're living a different life so I just always did whatever I was feeling but I think that is becomes a bit of a cliche it's trying to get that audience to connect but that album people connected people still listening to that day how is it when money comes fame comes attention from the boy who's working in Burger King to then being a household name do you feel as if you can lose the connection because then what you're singing with doesn't really feel the same because you're at a different level in your life or does that not come into play I mean I think there's a thing with music as well where it's it's always about young people because most of the people that listen to music are young most of the people that listen to new music are young because those are the people that have got the time to is about discovering new things at that age so the industry if there is an industry it's all focused on that really and rightfully so so I think it's not just about suddenly staying in nice hotels or going to award ceremonies or whatever it's also I think just when you sort of age out of that you naturally just start sounding like your parents because you listen to Eminem's old music you feel the pain you hear the pain yeah it's real apart but then you become a old-time millionaire Oscars something an element goes missing for me still a genius the best ever but you can see the music change for years and you've got to change to progress and like I say hit that connection but you do see a lot of people changing it never hits again but the use because you had another album it went straight to number one again everything was everything making sense for you was in your mind that that was the path that you were on there was the right one yeah I mean it was very clear it was always very clear to me what music I wanted to do and looking back yeah I don't think it could ever have been any different and it's still like that now I still have a very I can't really change what I'm doing really but yeah it's most musicians are it's kind of the opposite way around we're a bit like you know those people at school that were really popular and good at sports and stuff and then they never really achieve anything but I had the bottle in the sniff I went fucking missing for years I had every ability I could ask for it football, the pace, the fire as soon as I touched drink at 14-15 I just fucking loved it and then the sniff came in and I just I could get the women as well and I just I loved that life I gave up that positive happy I don't know what would have happened now in my life but everything's so lovely the way it is now but I chose the other side of it I just fucking loved it I loved the madness you love the madness because there's a thing that you know what do they say it's like if you want freedom then it's like discipline gives you freedom it's that sort of well if you spend 30 hours in the morning doing all your work then you can spend the afternoon in the park drinking buckfast if you want but yeah so almost as I get older I'm more into the discipline than I am the freedom because actually once you've achieved a few things you realise it's actually that's how you feel happy actually the discipline and the consistency is key for anything talent will take you so far but I think if you work in 18 minutes a day on your craft for a year you're 95% ahead of other people who are in the same craft it's unbelievable with consistency and dedication I just thought it was a footballer I thought I'd made it not realising a step I've had the mindset now of a different ball game but it's just the consistency and like you said discipline caught away the negatives how did you celebrate then were you partying yourself back then so was there not a part of you that knew that if you stopped kicking the ball well or as well as everyone else that you wouldn't be able to party and you know girls and stuff it got me that Fatal 16, like Scotland Boys, Hibs, signing an S form so I was drinking 14, 15 then the drugs came I was still competing but then I noticed other people were becoming sharper and little inch of getting the ball away from me so I was more aggressive as well because I'm hungover my speed wasn't the same so I was doing a lot more fills but I decided fuck it I don't care anymore as long as I had women as long as there was drugs there or drink nightclubs I just went fully I knew what I was doing but I never had the balls to go okay I'm in trouble here so I just denied it and went down the other way and then every year the teams got worse the fitness got worse and then I basically chucked it 19 but by that time you're too far gone and so now what's different now? I'm not drinking, I'm not taking drugs, my vision is clearer, my frequency is higher I see things differently so did it just go so far that you just got that bad? I read a book called The Power of Now, it changed my life he's a mad guy my uncle said he could have been a contender or a footballer I was turning into that guy, the people I played with, I signed for Man United I went on and played for Celtic or whatever, I was better than him talking shit it wasn't better than him because they've made it, I didn't I knew it, I was that guy so I just stayed off everything became clean and then I became passionate about a podcast created this and then I understood division, started listening and watching other people so started following their suit and then you find your own little rhythm find out who you are and then I just know the only person who fails now is me yeah, I don't think I mean I think you are it's fascinating, do you do you think you would ever be able to celebrate your because you've already been really successful haven't you? but you're not, do you think you're enjoying it? do you think you're able to stop and say and to look back? is that because of the shit that you went through leading up to when you were 30? yeah, I think you've become scared as well because I know how far I've come but I know one night on the booze I wrapped the whole ceiling down and destroyed everything that I've built for 5-6 years and I wasn't talking about drinking and stuff I was talking about celebrating not celebrating like that but like because ultimately I think in order to celebrate something you have to take your eye off the ball I mean that's the whole point, you have to look back so you look forward but there's something quite scary about looking back because you might crash there's always an element of fear there there was I think the podcast game was hitting 10,000 views and the first like 3 months and I hit that and I was buzzing then it became a million views, 10 million, 100 million, 250 million now we're at half a billion but there's no excitement what next? you do have to be careful all you've got is that is that excitement that things are getting better or that thing that gets you up in the morning that's all you've got really it's all well and good like putting all this together and sending emails out or whatever you do will happen but if you're not making you happen you end up getting tired if you stop enjoying sending the emails out or working out who's going to be on your next show and enjoying that, really enjoying it then you're going through the motions for me the most important thing is finding a way to feel excited about stuff and often that involves I think changing what it is you're doing in some way or doing things that scare you if you do stuff that scares you is a reward there because when I interview people like this I love conversations at 5 on this because I'm not free thinking my mind doesn't go like I knocked to push all over the place I'm in the zone I'm in now and then after that it's okay what next but then I know I've got free time with my kids and my family I enjoy that but now it's like a business where you just know as patterns you know how to make it work you're on this one way track you get some hitting goals but when you hit the goals I know in my mind now numbers don't mean anything it's an illusion that doesn't define you as a person everything you do in your life is a feeling I mean it does change other people there's that you've changed well actually you haven't changed if you become the the number one podcaster of all time and you know Rishi Sunak's calling you up to come down and you know so you can help him with the election or whatever that's not you is it that's other people changing how they behave but those things become too influential on your life that it's very difficult like for instance if you hate the Tories right but then the Prime Minister wants to come on here right what are you gonna say you're gonna say no to the people on your show principles become harder and harder and harder to enforce and then all of a sudden your wife and your kids and everyone around you changes that's the difficult bit did you see that when the success came other people changing around you yeah I was always able to I was always quite brutal I think I always did things that didn't make any sense put it that way so I think people got used to it do you think because as well do you think that's a protection because sometimes the paranoia can kick in who's good who's wrong who's good for the career who's not what you see becomes a selfish real pension you have those relatives that you see Christmas and stuff friends of friends and stuff and they're kind of like oh you know why aren't you doing reality TV or this is great what you're doing but if you did if you went on like morning TV or whatever and or you know big brother or something then they can only see it in terms of like well I read you in I sometimes see you written about in the middle of the newspaper but if you were on the front of the newspaper you would be it's hard to describe to explain to those people that actually that's not true because if you end up on the front of the newspaper people forget why you're even there and actually it's important to for people to feel like there's a thing that you do and that you're not trying to get in everyone's faces but yeah it's all of those things that I think I mean the classic one is you know when a band goes on tour because they've just had a big tax bill and it's kind of like oh you know you're all getting back together that's great you must have really missed each other you can boast a bit so I think it's yeah I think if you do things that make no sense then you I guess yeah you do train people that you're not going to be ultimately you're doing everyone a favour by doing the right thing because in the end history is kind to you see when did it all come on top for you the fame the money because I know you've struggled with your health as well was that partly because everything you've done through the years working to be successful yeah I mean I definitely I just used to work that's really and it's different now I think maybe but it was kind of expected I think you know misbehaving parties and stuff it was it was actually I think if you'd have asked someone at my record label they probably would have said well to be honest we hardly ever saw him he was always either on tour or in Barnet but you yeah it I mean once you become yeah when I was doing the I did a Reebok campaign where I was I was on the side of buses and then it makes you realize with the with the tabloids they sort of when you read the middle of the tabloid where the the stuff that's happening the celebrity news it's really just a lot of it's either made up or convenient for because there's a selection of people that are the people that people care about at that point and so by hook or crook they're gonna think of something to say so what ends up happening is people they read those stories and believe it but it's not really it's not really like that in real life it's more it's more it's more of a there's an act there's a certain amount of it which is an act which I think people feel like they have to do so I yeah my biggest problem was that I worked too hard I just burned out constantly and so I would have to sort of take time off and then and then I come back to it and work too hard again so when you say burn out is that mentally where you just become fatigued and drained and depressed or anything yeah I mean I would do yeah I would do hundreds of versions of the same song basically the business yeah not the business really I think you you don't have to be know anything about business as long as you as long as you get what you're doing right and you don't work with people that are trustworthy you know that's fairly easy to work out trustworthy people people that don't I mean a really good sign is if they don't fuck other people over then they're not gonna fuck you over that's key right I mean if someone's talking shit about someone to you they're talking shit about you yeah and that was even when I was like 21 that was really obvious to me but that's a good thing a lot of people don't suss that out until there's too many mistakes there's no going back yeah did anybody ever try and pull you aside to say look you're going off the rails here you're fucking up we see you burning out take a break are you so caught up in just trying to yeah I mean yeah I've always had lots of people around me that care but there is only so much that anyone can do really and it goes both ways I think if you're a really really motivated person then you're gonna find a way of being successful or you're gonna get to where you want to get to and I think and I think the same goes is if you're really destructive if you're really if you really want to mess things up there's nothing anyone can really do are you a part in yourself yeah yeah um did you have to love up to that character who's in the music for those they're drinking in a part in I mean yeah well there is a lot of that you know there's a lot of people that's what you mean to them so I've never had to I've been offered a lot of drinks but I didn't want to think you have to want to destroy yourself I think certain people want to destroy themselves I never I don't think I ever really was in danger of going completely being a complete lunatic whether the name the streets conform I don't really know really I mean I wanted to I guess it was I wanted to do I wanted to do something that represented sort of all of life and I wanted to make British music that was as lyrical as the American music that I made but I don't really know why I called it the streets really how long did you take a break for well I mean I'm always I'm always I've never really taken a break really I stopped doing the streets because I wanted to make a film how was that feeling it was pretty terrible really because I spent almost I spent years and years not doing anything well I was DJing which I loved and I was directing music videos and stuff and yeah and and it was looking back on it it was all really it was all really important but you don't know that at the time because really this film that I've just made is you know it's DJing it's I was producing a lot of music that I was playing when I was DJing it's directing so it's all of the things that I was doing that I didn't really know why I was doing came together into one thing if you always wanted to do acting because you've been in Doctor Who and then Betweeners I did the music for the in betweeners yeah yeah it was what was that feeling again like everything you've done you've always been so successful yeah I mean funnily enough actually we watched the in betweeners on the bus on this tour and it was when they were putting it together and I was writing the music I was watching it in bits you know with anything creative or you know you kind of don't want to see how the sausage is made it's kind of like it comes in bits and then they're constantly changing the size of it to work out you know to work out where the joke should be landing the timing of the shots so you're sort of just watching this thing over and over again and then and you kind of you know that everything's working somehow but you don't actually there's no like vibe because you're just doing your job and it all came together and then we went to the premiere and it was they had a tremendous time of it and I was really really proud of them and happy for them but it was one of those things and it just became this huge thing but you don't it wasn't actually until I watched it with the guys is it like 10 years ago maybe? more I think but the film I think the film I mean it was a long time ago anyway and we watched it and it was just like everyone was just it was just really funny but it was a really strange feeling because I made the music so it's not my thing at all I was kind of had nothing to do with it really but it was like every time something happened there would be like my song was in the back it was a very strange feeling is that because you weren't at the forefront and you never do yourself no I don't mean that I mean I think all I was saying is that I was able to enjoy it I mean I would never be able to enjoy my own music I couldn't put on my album that would be really weird I fucking cringe listening to the boys so you should it's I think some people love their own shit but after it's finished I feel as if I should have done more I don't feel the odd time but always feel I should have done better there yeah that's good but I think in the case of in between it's a weird thing where I was able to enjoy it because it wasn't me that did it it still has an element of something that I was involved in but it was a really good it was a really good feeling yeah it's hard for people about sort of dry your eyes it's impossible to have any concept of what that song means to anyone else but yourself yeah so the movie you've been working on for the last 10 years how did that come about and why did you want to get into the movie business well I've got no interest in the movie business but it feels like it's what I want to be doing it's much harder to make a film than it is to make an album in a way and I've just been building up to this my whole life you start writing songs about something in particular and then it's you always imagine what it would look like I can't believe there's a novelist out there that doesn't imagine their novel as a film in some way I mean that's what they are really aren't they they're films that happen in your head and there is a big difference between saying something and actually showing it because when you say it it can be anything if I say a man walked into the room and he looked just like my old father and he had a very intimidating coat on I mean everybody has got their own idea of what my words mean and they sort of slot them into their own lives whereas when you make a film that coat that your father is wearing in the story you have to decide what that coat is what colour it is so it's more grown up I think making a film it's much more about getting the best out of people and deciding what everything is and then at the same time getting the money element to it where everything has to be paid for so I think for someone like me it's just natural When's this movie out and what's that about can you give much information about it? Yeah it's called The Darker The Shadow The Brighter The Light and it's based on my time as a DJ so I'm in it where the voice over are the songs so the musical element to the film is the thoughts that are happening in my head as the story's happening When will this be out? It's probably going to be out in the next few months hopefully because it's took 10 years it's a nervousness are you anxious are you excited to get it out? Yeah I'm excited to get it out finishing the thing was the hardest thing I've ever done by a long shot so it wasn't since I finished it I've just felt really relaxed really everything's a bonus you know how like you were saying when you've got your podcast and you had the first 10,000 views and you end up in this sort of competition with yourself somehow well I don't have any of that with this film because I've never done it before even if no one watches it it's still done better than any other film I've done that makes sense because just making a film for me you're sort of in a club of people that have made a film and however bad the film is it's not something that it's just difficult enough for it to be a reward in itself for me like I said it's that you're a genius your music, the albums that you write in between us this film it's just all that creative mindset, it's being creative that I create things for my own mind as well so it's amazing feeling and then when it comes together and you sit and watch it you have that moment I remember making my homeless documentary I was just figuring out how to make it in my head while I'm doing it and then we've done the premiere and I get to stand and I was just that feeling for 10 seconds that was all worth it as well you get like a feeling of something I don't know bliss but like 10 seconds or 20 seconds but then it kind of goes and then sometimes you're trying to get the next finger instead of saying enjoy the journey but it's difficult when you've got my mind is so it's hard to just live in that moment but it's the final piece for me and then it's you've achieved it and then you get a set moment whether it's a 10 year movie or a 7 day documentary or whatever it is there's a little feeling for me when you get it it's a beautiful feeling it's hard to explain yeah I think being I mean you know you've had people on here like in the military and stuff and it's that it's being mission oriented if there's a mission I think I think it's good like it's that's good the mission I think is the problem and so as long as you have somewhere that you are somewhere that you want to be somehow and just doing difficult things is that's something that I've really really started to get into almost just because they're difficult I think it's okay I'm gonna get a load of tests next week yeah I mean I really like cold water I like swimming I've never been that good at exercising really but I always on stage is the place where I I always end the tour in a really good physical shape just because every night is just it's like a spin class before probably just before I was able to do music for a living yeah because I always just I was never there was never any doubt for me it was always kind of like I'm either gonna make music for a living or life isn't worth living somehow I mean that's kind of how extreme I was when I was younger so the idea that it wasn't gonna happen was I mean it's funny like I was only what any at that point and you think you don't realise how much life there is do you think music saved your life yeah for sure but it's also it's also caused me a lot of pain as well yeah it's as fast as I catch 22 I think the other way of looking at it is that you need something you need something to save your life because life just goes on for so long but adult life goes on like being a parent as well goes on for so long yeah it's a constant being a parent yeah well they go forward for the future brother just trying to always have a have a goal and there's loads of things I want to do I'd like to make more films and ones that aren't streets films well the streets if I get back together well I mean we're I know you really stuck a couple of albums there just a few years ago is that correct yeah no there's a streets album that came out a couple of months ago but it's it's how you define together for anybody watching me this may be a bit of a leaf of struggle right now what advice would you have for them exactly what you said I think do something that you love for an hour for an hour a day or yeah create something or make a change in your life make the change in your life that you want to make and stick to it for an hour a day and that will change your life if you don't give up the older I get the more I believe you're only ever really doing an hour a day anyway because the rest of it you're just like travel sitting around the water cooler I don't think any of us do more than about an hour of good work a day I'm a great pretender mate I don't even do any work I just bring everything but what I'm doing is right and it's making sense for me I'll try to figure it out as I go along in life I'll try to figure it out but I know I'm away from the bad stuff the drink the drugs the gambling I'm fucking but there's always a concern that make pop back in but listen we cross those bridges when we come to it mate would you like to finish up on anything else brother I would like to have a cup of tea cup of tea is on its way but listen for coming on a day and telling your story you're an absolute legend grew up with your music still listen to your music and I look forward to seeing your movie brother God bless you and take care thank you