 Hey everyone, and welcome to the Women in Red presentation at Wikimania 2021. I'm one of your moderators, Rosie Stephenson-Goodnight, one of the co-founders of Women in Red. And with me today is the other co-founder, Roger Bamken. Hello, welcome. I'm gonna be talking about, can Wikipedia actually rid its content gender gap? And to explain that better, let's give you an introduction to who and what Women in Red the community is all about. Next slide, please. So we're gonna talk about its history. We'll give you a little bit of smack of data and metrics. We'll tell you about our partners, the different editathons we can do, social media and even our GemTech Award. And then we're gonna introduce you to our panelists, two panels. And if we have time at the end, we'll give you a Q and A. I'm hopeful that someone has pasted a link to our etherpad so that you can just click on it versus seeing it here on the slide deck. So let's give it a go. Next slide, please. So for those people who haven't used Wikipedia, and I think most people have, on the front page, you'll find a thing called, Did You Know? Which is an introduction to brand new articles on Wikipedia. And that's really where Rosie and I met. We were editing away for years and years and years, introducing brand new articles, putting new articles up there. And when I, in 2015, I decided to write a presentation for Wikimania, because I thought it'd be a nice idea to go to Mexico. And I wrote a title for that. I won't tell you what the title was, but it created quite a brouhaha with people going, I'm not too sure about this, but it caused a lot of fuss, which was a good thing really, because it pulled people in. But people said, what you really need to do is get yourself a partner who's a woman. And there were some volunteers, but I knew Rosie from a long time from editing. And although we'd never actually zoomed or met, I wrote a note on her talk page saying, the door is open. And Rosie came in through the door and we ended up writing a presentation together to Mexico. You can see a picture there of Rosie and I in Mexico. As you can see, I didn't make it, but I was there on the screen in my first virtual appearance. Women in Red was launched on with a title of Project XX. It was later renamed after a page by T-Antony. We are now one of the largest Wiki projects in Wikipedia. We have over 30 sister projects in different languages. And we have people in different countries, like Nigeria, et cetera. And one of the most important things we have is that we measure the percentage of women on Wikipedia, which we do with Wikidata. Can we tell us a bit more? Rosie, can you tell me a bit more? Yeah, thanks for this slide. A lot of numbers, right? You can say that we use things like bots to measure lots of things. We know that the daily average of articles created within the scope of Women in Red was 70 in our first year, 2015, and that this year, 2021, at least through the end of June, we're averaging 78 articles a day. We have the subject of who's leading this community. The answer is no one. We're very flat. Everyone and anybody coordinates the work that we do at Women in Red. We have 517 official members, but we have more than 1,100 people subscribed to our monthly newsletter to see what events are we going to be doing the following month. We have a lot of enthusiasts. More than 10,000 Twitter followers are following the work of Women in Red, where we profile the biographies and other articles created by people who participate in the work. There are nine managers of our different social media platforms, and Roger will tell us a little bit more about that soon. And there are, put my glasses on. There are 874 unique editors to the Women in Red Talk page. The Women in Red Talk page, which was created in 2015 when we launched Women in Red, there have been 23,000 unique comments made on that talk page, and not a word of that has been about harassment or anything uncivil. There have been about 4,000 page views of that talk page in the last 30 days alone. Did you know the Women in Red has created more than 800 red lists? These are lists of notable women who don't have a Wikipedia article. We slice and dice them in different ways by occupation, by country, by first name, by surname, by what decade they were born and decade they died. Women in Red editors have uploaded more than 19,000 images of women to Wiki Commons. And what's our budget for all of this? Some of you are wondering, well, you can see right there, lower right-hand corner, we've done this on a budget of zero. We've never had a grant. Everything we've done has been done by volunteers and no money has changed hands, no money has been paid, no grant from the Wikimedia Foundation, nothing. We've just done this as volunteers. So on to Roger at the next slide, please. Well, no money, but we have had lots of partners. As you can read, we've got the, we've had people at the Guggenheim and the Smithsonian, even the UN and UNICEF, BBC, Cambridge University. The UN was particularly impressive because Rosie went to New York and got to talk in one of the UN buildings, which was rather nice. One of the best partners we had was the BBC. They have a yearly 100 women contest where they list 100 notable women and we were called in and we were linking up to BBC offices around the globe. And there I got to train some people and I got to train Helen Pankhurst. Yes, that's the correct surname. She's the great-great-granddaughter of Emmeline. I got to train the lady who owns a million images who are not uncreated commons. And I got to meet the lady called Carol Black, Dame Carol Black, who was a dame, a bit like Rosie. Dame Caroline Black. And in the bottom left-hand corner there, you can see Cambridge University. The gates where the women were... First women who graduated from Cambridge University. But they weren't given degrees. They weren't given degrees until about 1940, even though some of them came top of all the exams. In the middle is a lady called... On the right is Emmeline Pankhurst in the black and white photograph. On the left is a lady called Annie Canney. And in the middle is a lady called Mary Blathwaite, who was discovered by Ewan at Edinburgh University. We wrote her biography and discovered that she owned a garden. And in that garden, there was 50 memorials to different suffragettes. And we wrote about all those 50 suffragettes. The memorials were all plowed up in the 1960s, which is a very sad event. And on the right, you can see Penny and Rosie, who I finally met at UCI, because somebody paid us some money in order to be able to pay some of our travel towards this meeting. And in the bottom right-hand corner, you'll see the women in red barn stars. We've only ever given four of those out. And all of those four participants are part of this talk. So if we just go on, we've also done edit-a-thons online. And if Rosie can maybe tell us a bit about that. We have. For the most part, all of the women in red edit-a-thons are virtual. They are online events, starting with our first one in September, 2015, that we did with a partner, the Smithsonian, regarding Asian Pacific American women. That event lasted for three days. It was our inaugural event. And we found that our members and enthusiasts really liked that. So we started doing more and more. And now we've done 207 edit-a-thons virtual or online. Some of them are topical. For example, Olympic and Paralympic Women is a three-month event. Women in healthcare, we did once the COVID pandemic started, Visible Wiki Women is a photography or image upload event. Other events or annual events, we do women artists every February for the entire month. We write about women artists. And every September in honor of Ada Lovelace Day, we cover women scientists. And every September it's women writers. And every August, like the month we're in now, we cover indigenous women. We now do about six events per month, some of them month long, some three months long, some are year long. Year long initiative for 2021, it's women's rights. And maybe we'll hear a little bit more about that from one of our panelists, Susan. Next slide, please. Well, I'm conscious of the time. And I'm just thinking that I should tell you very quickly about the social media. One of the important things about the Wiki project that we have is that we've got social media. We have a Facebook page. We have an Instagram page. We have a Pinterest page. And we have a Twitter page. Penny will be telling you more about the Pinterest page later. The Twitter is possibly our leading outlet. 27,000 tweets, 10,000 followers. And it's least recently been blue links by one of the account managers. We've also got... We haven't got a website, but we do have a link to our pages on Wikipedia, on the Wiki project, which show all of those red lists, which Rosie was talking about. We are short of about a million biographies, but we have hundreds of thousands of women who are already notable, who need articles writing about them. And that's one of the jobs that we are obviously trying to do. Have we won any awards? Have we won any awards, Rosie? Women in Red was founded in July, 2015. And about a year later in August, September, we were notified that we were shortlisted for the UNITU GemTech Award in category for what we are doing to promote women, both as online editors and women represented in content. Next slide, please. Let's now bring on our first panel. So if the magic of those who are working backstage can help us out, let's bring on Antique Ait, so Kate and Brenda Waller and Camilia Boban and Hannah, otherwise known as Hickriot and Susan W, please. We can now dispense with viewing the slide deck and just chat a little bit with our panelists. And we're gonna go ahead and get started with Susan and I'm gonna pose this question to you, Susan. Susan, you've been a part of Women in Red since the very start, you were right there with us. And I wonder what it is that motivates you? What got you started and kind of, what are you working on now? Well, what got me started was I'm a historian, I have studied women's history for years and I find it tragic that women have been left out of history. And so I first started editing articles, interestingly enough, since this is Indigenous Women Month, on Indigenous people and I found it really interesting. And so then I discovered Brenda, my mentor, and she introduced me to other editors, including Rosie. And I basically focused on women's rights, historical women, I'm not really, I don't do much on women who are living, I work on those historical people who have been left out of this historic record and the events that they were involved in. Right now I'm working on a whole series of articles I started in December, I probably won't finish until 2023, about the problem of women losing their nationality worldwide. I have yet to find a country and I have now written 90 plus articles where women throughout the world were not deprived of their nationality because they married. Susan, thanks for that. And thanks for mentioning Brenda, who you connected with very early on. I met Brenda, I think back in 2014 and she was a rock star even back then. I had been someone who had reviewed one of her articles that reached good article status and since then I know she's also written featured articles which is the highest quality rating on Wikipedia for any amount of the articles that are written. So Brenda, can you tell us a little bit about what got you started with women in red and what are you working on now? Brenda, you're muted. Okay. I started to work on women's articles probably from the get-go. I have an interest in horses and I started working on articles about various horsewomen of different kinds. I also am just a historian. I'm from Montana. I also write about people in places where I live and I think the way I got the most active in women in red became defending articles about women at Articles for Deletion because what was happening was that people were saying they're not notable, we don't have sources. A lot of the things that Susan spoke of that a lot of women were described as the wife of so-and-so and it became a real challenge to work on explaining the notability criteria and that Wikipedia should not be perpetuating what has been the difficulties in the past. So I think that I spent a lot of time dealing with the community as a whole and trying to explain, no, we're not dumbing down the articles, we're not reducing our criteria. We have to acknowledge that we have to look at resource material differently than we normally do. So that's sort of a brief synopsis of what I've done. Thanks for sharing that, Brenda. I remember also in 2016, walking the streets of Esinolario, Italy during Wikimania 2016 and I was hungry and I wanted a pizza and I got myself a pizza and I sat down at a table at the same time, somebody else sat down at the same table, lo and behold, it was Camelia and that's how we met. We started talking about Wikipedia, what we're doing. So Camelia, tell us a little bit about you and how you got involved with women in red in general but the Italian version in particular because women in red is a 32 language project. So can you tell us about that? Yes, hello everybody. I'm a Wikipedia since 27. So I got in contact with women in red and we do rosies during our pizza time and also we've seen me during my first, was my first Wikimania in Esinolario and I participated to all the talks, labs, sessions about the data gap and I was really impressed by the numbers because I didn't realize how deep this gap is. So in fact, in Wikipedia, some work was done about women biographies but it was not enough. But so we needed some work, continuous specific focus on this and a work, a structural work. So I decided to create a project dedicated to diversity in Italian Wikipedia and this way Wikidone was born on August 4th in 2016. And so this experience about women in red was our starting point on our activity. Thanks so much, Camelia, for telling us about that. Kate, I am curious about how you got started and particularly what you're working on, which I believe is notable Irish women, notable women in engineering, notable women with fantasy and fiction writers. You just are a rock star. Kate, we can't hear you. You seem to be frozen, is that the right word? Kate seems to have dropped off technical difficulties. Excuse us all, this is gonna happen, right? So now I'm gonna ask a question of Hannah. Hannah, you are one of the last people on this panel that I kind of got to know. I know that you're an administrator on Wikipedia and that you do a whole lot of stuff regarding content gender gap. Show us in on that. Yeah, so I started editing Wikipedia after I have a lovely day. I saw a sign up my university and I was like, oh, that's so interesting. I never thought about the people behind Wikipedia. So I started looking up my professors and none of them had articles although the men in their department did. So that really started to get me frustrated, especially as someone who wants to go into academics that really frustrated me. I've written numerous articles about people who are pioneers. In fact, when I brought them to Did You Know, the people who were reviewing it were like, how did she never have an article before? So the thing that keeps me going, I guess, is the anger that they're missing and that I feel like they shouldn't be missing. I need to fail it. It feels like a little sense of duty for myself. And being an administrator does help as well because I get to oversee deletions, expedite deletions and AFDs and I can add my two cents or I can be like, no, they're trying to target her because she's a woman. As well, something else that you didn't mention is I am one of the managers of a Twitter account that helped us get to 10,000, which is great, very exciting. Yeah, I was very happy. So yes, my focus is female academics and female in sports because there is a blatant gender determination in women in sports specifically. For example, I edit hockey. If you play one game at the National Hockey League, you get an article. Women can only play in the Olympics and that's the only way a female hockey player will get an article if you play in the Olympics. So that's not fair. Thanks, Hannah. Thanks so much for that, Hannah. And now I think we're going back to Kate. Kate. Okay, so quick one. It was 2016, there was an Irish rebellion being commemorated nationally. And the 1916 Easter Rising and everyone was talking about all the men who'd been involved. And there were quite a lot of women involved in that rising. And I started to write about them. And then I started to wonder how I could create lists, red lists. And then I discovered women in red and the joy of all of their red lists. But very few were Irish. So my goal was to capture Irish women. The first woman stockbroker anywhere in the world. A trailblazing Irish particle physicist. The first women to be awarded degrees in either Ireland or the UK. And of course, from there, I ran into engineers from Armenia and Iraq and writers from Nigeria and Jamaica and basically my goal is Irish women. Women in rebellions. Women in sciences and engineering. Thanks for that, Kate. I'm gonna now pose a question to all of our panelists. And if you can give us an answer in no more than three or four sentences. Here is the question. Question is we have a lot of viewers out there who are currently maybe readers of Wikipedia, but not necessarily editors. Those who want to be an editor and work on the content gender gap, do you have a word of wisdom for them, what they can do to kind of join in that work in three to four sentences? Let's start again with you, Susan. Well, I think one of the most important things is just making sure that you integrate your articles into the encyclopedia. If you write about a woman, add her to her partner, see that male or female article if they have one. Check on the side of Wikipedia, there's a thing that says tools and it says what links here? Check that. See if it's linked to other article. As you're writing, be mindful. I remember years ago, I was doing an article on a women's conference and it was in 1914 and there were lots and lots and lots of sources about how these women after this conference went around worldwide and talked to world leaders and got them to commit during war to participate in an international mediating body which became the League of Nations. I went to the League of Nations article, it did not mention one coyote about the women's war, nothing about any woman involved in the League of Nations. So I added that information. Be mindful that women have been left out of history but if we can add them back to the historical events that they participated in, it benefits everyone. No little girl should grow up thinking that women did not participate, they did. Susan, thank you, that is just awesome and I hope it inspires others to come and join in the work that we're doing. Now we're gonna move on to our second panel. So if the backstage folks could please send backstage everyone but Roger and me and bring up the slide deck again, Roger, take it away. All right, so I'm going to introduce you to Mr. Ewan McAndreve who's from Edinburgh University. I'm gonna introduce you to Jess Wade who's from Imperial in near London. And I'm gonna introduce you to Carol Ann who's from Manchester in the UK. Penny who's from near Los Angeles and Lucy who also lives in Leeds which again is the one in the UK. Firstly, I'm gonna talk to Ewan. Ewan has run, Ewan you've run about 50 in-person editathons which I think is way out in front of anybody else for women in red editathons. But can you tell us anything about interesting about little projects you've done at the time? Yeah, hello everyone. 51 monthly workshops dedicated to women in red but 114 editathons in total. Can we see the slide please? What we were all about celebrating and making women more visible on Wikipedia and to recruit more female editors to the project and about 69% of our editors have been women. We thought it was a way to do more particularly where Edinburgh and Scotland had a rich story to tell but we've also hosted a student internship. There she is, Emma Carroll, the witch finder general. And she's a student at the university who hunted down coordinates for all the historical place names mentioned in the university survey of Scottish witchcraft database where at project completion the places of residence of over 3,000 men and women accused of witchcraft in Scotland, 85% of them women are now geolocated on a wiki data driven map. So anyone can find out about the accusations of witchcraft that happened nearby to them in Scotland. And the idea is that it highlights the scale and intensity of the Scottish witch hunts to a modern audience as well as localizing and bringing to life these individual stories of the women who were persecuted. But additionally, women in red the editors at the university created pages for over 20 of the notable women accused of witchcraft including Lilius Adie who's the only accused witch in Scotland we can put a face to thanks to forensic artists at the university of Dundee digitally reconstructing her face and then kindly sharing this to her new Wikipedia page. So the projects gained coverage both in international and national news media but I think it's important that it's also been covered in local news outlets and stimulating interest in these stories. And Emma's presented on her work at the second remembering Scotland's accused witch's conference last November. And it's just part of a grassroots movement to memorialize what happened to these women. And the wiki data map is seen as an important resource in furthering this aim and uncovering more of these women's stories. I can't believe that number 3000. I live in Scotland. I couldn't believe that there were about 30 or 40 witches within walking distance of where I live. Not only that with Ewan's work that work is gonna be there forever. And people like Jess have been writing articles about leading women scientists not just one, not just a hundred but more than a thousand articles which she writes about articles about one a day. Jess, why? I've been working on programs to improve gender balance in science and engineering since I started my undergraduate degree in physics at Imperial. And I think that kind of in-person outreach campaigns and initiatives have a huge capacity for exciting young people about science. But I wanted to reach a bigger audience. Public perceptions of science and engineering are shaped by what people are taught at school who's on television, who's on radio what they learn from social media. And that's how I landed on Wikipedia. A chance to increase public trust in science transform public perception of who scientists are help teachers incorporate scientists in particularly women scientists into their curriculums and their textbooks and to honor and celebrate the contributions of scientists from historically marginalized groups. So since the beginning of 2018 I've spent every single evening writing these biographies whether I'm in a lab, whether I'm away at a conference whether I'm sitting in the comfort and safety of my own kitchen. And I've just surpassed 1400 and it's been a complete thrill to document these stories. But by far my favorite page ever is Dr. Gladys West. She is a mathematician who was born in 1930. She studied maths there historically Black College and University in Virginia. She then worked as a maths teacher for a little while before joining the US government to do the early calculations for GPS technology. And when I started Gladys West page there was very little about her online. There was a kind of short clip on a news website. And since then she's been nominated by the BBC as one of the most influential women in the world. She's been inducted into the US Air Force Hall of Fame. She's finished her PhD by distance learning at the age of 91. And she's been in international newspapers and education initiatives all around the world. And most excitingly just last month, so June 2021 she was honored by the Royal Academy of Engineering as the first woman in their history to win the Prince Philip Medal for Engineering. And this is really, really extraordinary. And so basically I love Wikipedia. I love storytelling and I love everything and everyone at Women in Red does. Well, and we love you too. In fact, for one year I started writing articles myself at one a day just to try and stop Jess from catching me, but I had to give up eventually after one year. Jess, can we just, I'd like to go on to talk to Carol because Carol is a lady I met in Manchester and the UK and Carol Anne organized an editathon at Emmeline Pankhurst's house. Carol, can you tell us something about that? Yes, so a couple of, a few times now at the Pankhurst Centre and Museum because if people don't know who Emmeline Pankhurst is she is basically the mother, the militant champion of women's suffrage for women to get the vote. And she was born in Manchester in 1858. And I have the honor of speaking to the board and asking them if I could host a wiki editathon. Make that our base because of course we want to be able to do something campaigning from that base going forward. And I call the wiki editor thumbs that come to the events, cyber suffragettes. That's what I call them. They do some fantastic work. But for me, I go around and I, what I say spread the gospel. There are, for example, I know Jess has talked about Gladys West. She's someone who looks like my anti-barrel. That's what some of these kids want. What's that? I think we've lost you. I think we might have to come back to you. I'm sorry about that. Can you try again, Carole? You did start to move again? Are we still... Yes, yes. So what got that got me an invitation to present and do a lecture at the United Nations Youth in Denmark and and like Rosie it was an honor to go to the United Nations Youth and speak with them. I got the gig to actually mentor some of them to do their first ever wiki editor thumbs so we did that I mentored them in 2018 and we did that in 2019 and and that's continued. And so I'm registered in their newsletter and their information about mentoring them and I received an intern that came over to the UK and spent some time with me and Roger. You and I collaborated and you met that said United Nations intern when you came over to co-host the wiki editor thumb at the Panker Center and we will be doing it. Moving forward as a subject. And I got and I got to remate, remeete Helen Panker Center. I'd met at the BBC images, images of people. I'd like to call on Penny and I would like to tell you that when I spoke to Penny, I said to her, Penny, are you wearing gonna wear anything red? And she said, I'm just cutting it out. Yeah, yeah. Well, hats. I like to find pictures of people in hats. I like to find pictures of people wearing whatever wonderful thing they love because that's one of the things I care about on Wikipedia is getting pictures of women getting pictures of diverse, interesting looking women on Wikipedia. There's a really small number of historical sort of superstars who have iconic images and everyone knows what they look like and you know Marie Curie or Nefertiti or Susan B Anthony. But you don't have to win a Nobel Prize, and you don't have to be on coins or wear a crown to be Wikipedia notable. You can even do horrible things and be Wikipedia notable so we women in red is really good at addressing those kind of gaps between the great women pedestals. And this picture here shows some of the subjects of articles from our July editathons. You won't maybe recognize any of them and that's okay. You might think some of them look like your auntie or your neighbor, and maybe you like her hat. And so you click through and you learn a new story. Notability isn't always dressed up or nipped in or perfectly quaffed. It can mean that notable women laugh and scowl and squint and sweat and rage. I want to see a diverse range of faces and shapes and ages on Wikipedia. I especially want children to see a whole amazing range of what interesting people look like on Wikipedia. Because sometimes the scientists can look like your grandmother, even if your grandmother does not look like Marie Curie. Wonderful. Thank you very much. As you know, I love to see the fact that we're getting women to be seen. I always think of my granddaughter looking online and just seeing the fact that there are more than Marie Curie and Emily Bankhurst as notable women. We seem to have actually managed to keep to time and we might actually have time for Lucy to talk to us. Lucy, could you tell us some of your work about your work at Leeds? You became aspiring UK Wikipedia in the year and you mentioned women who read for some reason in your talk. Can we get rid of the slide and have a discussion, please? Hi, everyone. It's really lovely to be on a panel with some of my editing heroes. Amazing. I was really fortunate that I was voted as a joint up-and-coming Wikimedian in the UK. I was selected for a lot of the work I've been doing with my day job in museums and through my PhD in archaeology and advocacy for the importance of Wikipedia and its related projects. However, I know for certain that I would have not continued editing if it wasn't for the Women in Red project. I learned to edit relatively recently in 2019 at an LGBT History Month event in Leeds. I didn't do very much like lots of people who go to editing sessions. I stopped. Then I started again and it wasn't until a few months later when I wanted to do a page for a notable woman who was a curator at our museum, Elizabeth Peary, that I then came back to the Women in Red project and there's two things that have really made it an amazing and a sustainable way of continuing to edit. One is the infrastructure. There's lists you can choose from. You can get constant inspiration about the amazing things that women have done and continue to do. But also the community that's there, I've asked lots of questions, some of which I think people have gone, oh, they're quite new. They don't know how things work yet. But there's been so much compassion from the talk page. Particularly when pages have been quite difficult, co-writing with other editors has been really important. And so the practicalities of the project, but also the sense of community has really empowered me and continues to empower me to improve the internet. Thanks. That's brilliant. It makes it all worthwhile. I don't know about you, Lucy, but that gives me a warm feeling. What I thought what we might be able to do now is I think we've got about a few minutes left. We may have some Q&A that has come through. I think Marin has been sorting that out. We may have some questions that we can pose and we have... I'll just start off with a question. Where are they putting them in the stream yard chat so that we can see them there? That would be handy. While they're putting the questions there, I just want to say thank you to all the panelists who inspire us to know when. And for everybody who'd like to become a member of Women in Red or just do the work without becoming a member, just go for it. Be bold. We're here to help you if you're interested in that. But you don't necessarily need our help. You know there's a lot of ways you can kind of participate. Follow us on Twitter or come join us on the Women in Red top page. Before I turn over the questions to Roger, this presentation, this panel is dedicated to the memory of a long time Women in Red editor named user Yonina who died this year. Roger, go ahead with questions and answers. Right. Well, Marianne has been sorting through the comments. We don't seem to actually have many questions, but we do have people who are interested in particular areas. One kind of question is if we can call Yon back, is it possible to get Yon to appear on the screen again? Is Yon going to arrive? I'm not sure. No, he's certainly not going to arrive. One of the things that I've come across recently, Rosie, is I was discussing earlier with Carol, we are not a affiliated project. And I've been thinking that maybe we are the largest disorganization on Wikipedia. I think you're right. You know, I'm the chair of the affiliations committee. There are about 180 affiliated Wiki communities around the world. And Women in Red has, for whatever reason, so far at least decided not to become part of the affiliated group of communities, you know, the nonprofits and such. And I think it's because we're such a flat structure. We enjoy not having anyone at the top or the bottom. We're all the same. We're all equal. We all coordinate events if we feel like coordinating them or step back if we feel like doing that. Amazing work that everyone seems to do. Can't do it without you. All very collaborative. Can we have, can the people in the back room close for a discussion, please? Excellent. And can we return Yon to the screen, please? It's spelled E-W-A-N. Ah, thank you, Yon. Difficult getting hold of you. Somebody was asking the question, kind of question, is define which is brackets controversial? Mark? Well, that's more for the historians. Professor Julian Goodair would give you a very good description of what that means. But just anyone that's accused of the crime of witchcraft and investigated for that. So we're not actually saying they're witches. We're saying they are accused.