 Welcome to this CUBE conversation about women in tech and women in cyber security. Two things I'm very passionate about, Lisa Martin here with two guests, Debbie Briggs joins us, the area vice president and chief security officer at NetScout and Tyler Cohen-Wood is here as well. The founder and CEO of My Connected Health Ladies, it's an honor to have you on the program. Excited to talk to you. Thank you so much for having us. Completely agree. Tyler and I talked a couple of minutes last week and she has a lot to offer for this. I know I was looking at both of your backgrounds. Very impressive. Tyler starting with you. I see that you are a nationally recognized cyber security intelligence, national security expert and former director of cyber risk management for AT&T and I also saw that you just want to talk from 50 women in tech influencers to follow for 2021 award. Congratulations. I would love to know way back in the day, how did you even first become interested in tech? Well, it was kind of inevitable that I would go into something like tech because as a kid I was kind of nerdy. I was obsessed with Star Trek. I would catalog my Star Trek tapes by Star Date. I was just really into it but when I was in college, I mean it was the late 90s. Cyber security just really wasn't a thing. So I went into music and I worked for a radio station. I loved it but the format of the radio station changed and I wanted to do something different and I thought, well computers, I'll move to San Francisco and I'm sure I can get a job because they were hiring anyone with a brain because it was really the .com boom and that's really how I got into it. It was just kind of one of those things. Was it like network connection going from music to tech? It's quite a jump. It's a huge jump. But I was young. I was still fresh out of school. I was really interested in learning and I really wanted to get involved in cyber in some capacity because I became really fascinated with it. So it was just one of those things that just sort of happened. What an interesting. That's a zigzaggy path. That's a very, very interesting one. I don't have to talk about music with you later. That would be interesting. And Debbie, you also have, as Tyler does, 20 years plus experience in cyber security. You've been with NetScout since 04. Were you always interested in tech? Did you study engineering or computer science in school, Debbie? Yeah. So I think my interest in tech, just like Tyler, started at a very young age. I was always interested in how things worked and how people worked and some days over a drink, I will tell you some funny stories about things I took apart from my parents' house to figure out how it worked. They still don't know it. So I guess I love putting it back together. But I took a more traditional role than Tyler did. I do have a degree in computer science. Went to school a little bit earlier than Tyler. What I would say is when I was in college, the Computer Science Center was in the basement of the library. If you had these really tiny windows and they sort of hid you in the dark and I think it was my senior year and I went, I don't want to sit in a room by myself and write code all day and talk to no one. So I'm a senior and I'm like, okay, I do not want to write code all day. And so I happened to fall into a great company and moved on to PCs and from there went to messaging, to networking and into that I fell into cyber security. So I took that more traditional route. And I think I've done every job in IT except for programming, which is what I really got my degree in. But you realized early on, you know, I don't quite think this is for me. And that's an important thing for anybody in any career to really listen to your gut. It's telling you something. I love how you both got into cyber security, which is now, especially in the last 18 months, with what we've seen with the threat landscape, such an incredible opportunity for anyone. But I'd like to know there's not a lot of women in tech as we know we've been talking about this for a long time now. We've got maybe a quarter of women of the technology roles are filled by women. Tell her, talk to me about some of the challenges that you faced along your journey to get where you are today. Well, I mean, you know, like I said, when I started it was like 1999 2000. And there were even less women in cyber security and in these tech roles than there are now. And, you know, it was it was difficult because, you know, I remember at my first my first job, I was so interested in in learning about Unix and I would learn everything. I read everything about it. And I ended up getting promoted over all of my male colleagues. And, you know, it was it was really awkward because there was the assumption they would just say things like, Oh, well, you got that because you're a woman. And that was not the case. But it's that type of stereotyping, you know, that we've had to deal with in this industry. Now I do believe that is changing. And I've seen a lot of a lot of evidence of that. We're getting there, but we're not there yet. And I agree. I agree completely with what Tyler said, you know, when I started you were the only woman in the room. You got promoted over your male counterparts. You know, I would say even 10 years ago, you know, someone was like, Well, you could go for any Cecil role and you'd get the job because you're a woman. And I had to go and said, No, I might get an interview because I'm a woman. But you don't get the job just because, you know, you check a box. So, you know, some of that is still out there. But Tyler, you're right. Things are changing. I think, you know, three things that we all need to focus in on to continue to move us forward and get more women into tech is the first thing is we have to start younger. I think by high school, a lot of girls and young women have been turned off by technology. So maybe we need to start in the middle school and ensuring that we've got young girls interested. The second thing is we have to have mentors. And I always say, if you're in the security industry, you have to turn around and help the next person up. And if that person is a woman, that's great. But we have to mentor others. And it can be young girls, it could be young gentlemen. But we need to mentor that next group up. And, you know, if we're in the position to offer internships during the summer, we don't have to stay to the traditional role and go, oh, let me hire just interns from the, you know, IT, they're getting degrees in IT. You can get creative. And my best worker right now is an intern that worked for me, was an intern for me six years ago, and she has a degree in finance. So non-traditional route into cybersecurity. And the third thing I think we need to do is, is there things the industry could do to change things and make things, I don't want to say even because they're not uneven. But for example, I forget what survey it was. But if a woman reads a job description and I can do half of it, I'm not going to apply because I don't feel unqualified. Where men, on the other hand, if they can do three out of 10, they'll apply. So do we need to look at the way we write job descriptions and use different words, you know, rather than must have these skills, you know, sort of leave it a little bit open, like here are the skills we'd like you to have or have, you know, a handful of the following. So soften some of those job descriptions. And the second thing is, is once we get women in, we have to be a little bit more, I'll say, inclusive. So if you're a high tech company, look at, you know, your sales organization, when you go to big shows, do you pay more attention to men on the floor than women on the floor? If you have a sales event where you get different customers together, is it a golf outing or is it something that's maybe a little bit more inclusive than just male? So those are the three things I think as an industry, we have to focus it on. Start younger, get them, you know, work on mentorship, specifically in cyber. And the third thing is, is look at some of the things that we're doing, is companies, both in our HR and sales practice. That's a great, that last piece of advice, Debbie is fantastic. That's one that I hadn't thought about. But you're right, if, if a job description is written for, must have all of these things and a woman goes, I only get three out of the 10. I'm not, I'm not going to even get past, you know, the recruiter here. How can we write things differently? I also loved your idea of, of, of bringing in people with diverse backgrounds. I've been in marketing for 16 years and I've met very few people that actually have marketing degrees. A lot of people. So you get that diversity of thought. Tyler, what are some of your thoughts about how we can help expand the role of women in technology? Do you agree with some of the things that Debbie said? I love what Debbie said. I agree 100%. And I started laughing because I was thinking about all the golf outings that I've been on and I don't play golf. I think, I think that there is an untapped resource because there's a lot of women who are now interested in changing their careers. And that's a big pool of people. And I think that making it, making it more accessible and making it so that people understand what the different cyber security or cyber jobs are. Because a lot of people just assume that it's coding or it's working on AI. But that's not necessarily true. I mean, there's so many different avenues. There's, there's marketing. There's forensics. There's incident response. I mean, I could go on and on and on. And oftentimes if people don't know that these types of jobs exist, they're not even going to look for them. So making that more well-known what the different types of opportunities are to people, I think that that would help kind of open more doors. And that goes along beautifully with what Debbie was talking about with respect to mentorship. And I would even add sponsorship in there about becoming a sponsor of a younger female who's maybe considering tech or is already in tech to help her navigate the career. Look for the other opportunities. Taylor, as you mentioned, there's a lot to cyber security that is beyond coding and AI, for example. So maybe getting the awareness out there more. Do either of you, did either of you have sponsors when you were, you know, early in your career, are you a sponsor now? Debbie, let's start with you. So I'll answer your first question. I guess I was really fortunate that my first job out of college, I had an internship and I happened to have a female boss. And so although we may not have called it sponsorship or mentor, she taught me and showed me that, you know, women can be leaders. And she always believed in us and always pushed us to do things beyond what we may have thought we were capable of. Throughout the years, someone once told me that we should all have our own personal board of directors, you know, a group of people that weren't making a decision that may be life changing or we're unsure, rather than just having one mentor, having a group of people that you, you know, they don't have to be in cybersecurity. Yeah, I want someone that's on my board of directors that may be, you know, a specialist in cybersecurity, but having other executives and other companies that can also give you that perspective. You know, so I've always had a personal board of directors. I think I've had three or four different mentors, some of them I went out and found, some of them I have joined organizations that have been fortunate enough to become not only a mentor, but a mentee. And I've kept those relationships up over three or four years and all those people are now on my personal board of directors that, you know, if I have a life changing question, I've got a group of people that I can go back on. That is brilliant advice. I love that having a, isn't that great, Tyler? Having a personal board of directors, especially as we look at cybersecurity, the cybersecurity skills gap, Tyler has been, I think it's in its fifth year now, which is there's so much opportunity. What we saw in the threat landscape in the last 18, 19 months during the pandemic was this explosion in the attack surface, ransomware becoming a word that even my mom knows these days. What do you advise Tyler for? You talked about really making people much more aware of all of the opportunities within cyber, but when you think about how you would get women interested in cybersecurity specifically, what are some of the key pieces of advice you would offer? Well, again, I think I love the board of directors. I love that. That is, that is brilliant. But I really think that it is about finding mentors and it is about, doing the research and really asking questions. Because if you reach out to someone on LinkedIn, they may just not respond, but chances are someone will. Most people in this community are very willing to help and I found that to be great. I mean, I've got my board of directors too. I realize that now. But I also like to help other people as well that are just kind of entering into the field or if they're changing their careers. And it's not necessarily just women. It's people that are interested in getting into an aspect of this industry. And this is an industry where you can jump from this to this to this to this. I mean, I think that I've had six different major career shifts still within the cybersecurity realm. So just because you start off doing one thing doesn't mean that that's what you're going to do forever. There are so many different areas. And it's really interesting. I think about my 11 year old niece and she may very well have a job someday that doesn't even exist right now. That's how quickly cyber security that's how quickly cyber and everything connected is moving. And if you think about it, we are connected. There is a cyber component to every single thing that we do. And that's going to continue to expand and continue to grow. And we need more people to be interested and to want to get into these careers. And I think also it's important for younger girls to let them know this career. These careers are really fun and they're extremely rewarding. And I mean, I hate to use this as an incentive, but there's also a lot of money that can be made too. And that's an incentive to get women and girls into these careers as well. I think you're right. In addition to that, you're always going to have a job. And I think cyber is a great career for someone that are lifelong learners. Because like you said, your 11 year old niece, the job she when she graduates from college, she may have probably doesn't even exist today. And so I think you have to be a lifelong learner. I think one of the things that people may not be aware of is for women who may have gone the nontraditional route and got degrees later in life or took time off to raise children and want to come back to work. Cyber security is something that doesn't have to be a nine to five job. I have it happens to be a gentleman on my team who has to get kids on the bus and off the bus. And so we figured out how he gets up and he works for a couple hours, puts kids on the bus, is in the office, and then he gets the kids off. And once they've had dinner and gone to bed, he puts in a couple more hours. And I think people need to be aware of there is some flexibility and cyber jobs. I mean, it's not a nine to five job. It's not like banking. Well, if you were a teller and your hours are when the bank is open. Cyber is seven by 24 and jobs can be flexible. And I think people need to be aware of that. I agree on the flexibility front and people also need to be flexible themselves. I do want to ask you both that we're getting low on time. But I've got to ask you, how do you get the confidence to be, like you said, back in the day in the room, maybe the only female. And I've been in that as well, even in marketing, product marketing years ago. How do you get the confidence to continue moving forward, even if someone says you're only here because you're a female? Tyler, what's your advice to help young women and young men as well, fight any sort of challenges that are coming their way? I had a mentor when I first was it, when I first moved to the Defense Intelligence Agency. I had an office chief and she said to me, Tyler, you're a senior intelligence officer. You always take a seat at the table. Do not let anyone tell you that you cannot have a seat at the table. And that was good advice. And I think confidence is great, but courage is something that's much more important because courage is what leads up to confidence. And you really have to believe in yourself and do things that you know are right for you, not because you think it's going to make other people happy. And I think as women, it's really finding that courage to be brave and to be strong and to be willing to stand out alone on something because it's what you care about and what you believe in. And that's really what helps kind of motivate me. I love that courage. Debbie, what are your thoughts? So I was going to say this is going to be really hard to believe, but when I was 16 years old, I was so shy that if I went to a restaurant and someone's served me stone cold food, I wouldn't say a word. I would just eat it. If I bought something in a store and I didn't like it, I just couldn't bring myself to go to that customer service desk and return it. And my first job in high school was at a fast food place. And I worked for a gentleman who was a little bit of a tyrant, but I learned how to get a backbone very quickly. And I would have to say that looking back, he was probably my first mentor. Without even trying to do that, he mentored me on how to believe in myself and how to stand up for what's right. So Tyler, I completely agree with you. And that's something that people think when they get a mentorship, sometimes it's someone going to mentor them on something tactical, something they want to know how to do. But sometimes what you need to be mentored in could be how do I believe in myself or how do I find the courage to be the only female in the room? And I think that is where some of that mentorship comes from. And I think if we go back to mentoring at the middle school, there's lots of opportunities. Career affairs, the first Robotically Get the Middle School level gives all of us an opportunity to mentor girls at that level. And for all the guys out there who have daughters, it's not like you get a parenting checklist. Teach my kid courage. And Tyler, I love that word, but I think that's something that we all need to aspire to bring out in others. I love that. I love that. I agree with that. I think both of your stories are zigzaggy in certain ways, one in a more direct cybersecurity path. Debbie, with yours, Tyler, yours is very different coming from the music industry. But you both have such great advice. It's really, I would say I'm going to add to that. Open your mind. Be open to you can do anything. As Tyler said, there's a very great possibility that right now, the job that your niece who's 11 is going to get in the next 10 years doesn't exist yet. How exciting is that to have the opportunity to be open-minded enough and flexible enough to say, I'm going to try that. And I'm going to learn from my mentors, whether it's a fast food cook, which I wouldn't think would be a direct mentor and recognizing years later, wow, wouldn't impact that person had on me, having the courage to do what I have. And so I would ask you each one more question in terms of just your inspiration for what you're currently doing, Debbie, as the leader of security for Netsco, what inspires you to continue in your current role and seek more? So I'm a lifelong learner. So I love to learn cybersecurity every day is a different day. So it's definitely the ability to continue to learn and do new things. But the second thing is, I think I've always been, I don't want to call it a fixer upper because cybersecurity isn't a fixer upper. I've just always wanted to improve upon things. If I've seen something that I think can do better or a product that could have something new or better in it, that's what excites me is to give people that feedback and to improve on what we've had out there. You had mentioned we've got this block of jobs that we can't fill. We have to give feedback on how we get the tools and what we have today smarter so that if there are less of us, we're working smarter and not harder. And so if there is some low level task that we can put back into tools and talk to vendors and have them do this for us, that's how I think we start to get our way sort of out of the hole. Tyler, any thoughts on that? I, again, I love that answer. I mean, I think for me, it's that problem solving thing too. But for me, it's also about compassion. And when I see a story of some child that's been involved in some kind of cyber bullying attack or a company that has been broken into, I want to do whatever I can to help people and teach people to really protect themselves so that they feel empowered and they're not afraid of cybersecurity. So for me, it's also really that drive to really make a difference and really help people. And you've both done, I'm sure, so much of that made such a big difference in many communities in which you're involved. I thank you so much for sharing your journeys with me on the program today and giving such great point of advice to young men and women and even some of the older men and women out there that might be kind of struggling about where do I go next. Your advice is brilliant, ladies. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking with you. Thank you. For Debbie Briggs and Tyler Cohen Wood, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching this Keep Conversation.