 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today we're very, very happy to have with us former general secretary of the Communist Party of India Marxist and current Politburo member of the party, Prakash Karat. Prakash, welcome to NewsClick. Thank you. Well, this year on August 15, 2020, we're almost just about two years shy of the 75th anniversary of Indian independence. It's a very strange and difficult time to celebrate independence given the pandemic, COVID-19, still rampant around India, unemployment crisis, hunger crisis. How would you at this point assess the government's performance 73 years after independence, racked as it is by a global pandemic? Well, after 73 years of independence, I think India has reached a crucial stage where we are regressing from everything that we achieved through the freedom struggle and the establishment of independent India in 1947. Everything that was gained by that powerful mass movement, the anti-impedalist movement, we reached a stage 73 years later where much of that is getting reversed. And you have now a government in power which seeks to rewrite the history of independence and independent India. The Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the 5th of August went to Ayodhya for the foundation stone laying ceremony of the Ram Temple to be built at the site where the Babri Madhya stood. And in a speech he compared the freedom struggle led by Gandhiji which mobilized all sections of the people to the Ram Janmabhoomi Andolan which also drew people from all sections of society. So basically what he was trying to say was we are now in a new phase of independence or this is actually the freedom of India which we have achieved now on the 5th of August. So this shows the big change which has come about a big change in the nature of the Indian state, in the nature of our democracy, in the nature of even the political system and constitution that we have in India today. So I would say that the pandemic which you talked about, the pandemic has only a very what you might call microscopic way brought out this new trends or this pathological trends more out in the open because 5th of August which they now celebrate as a liberation day. Ram Lalla was liberated and that is a day in which Kashmir was also liberated by abolishing Article 370 and dividing up the state into two union territories. That date was chosen 5th of August precisely for that reason to show that this is the new India we are talking about. By the 75th anniversary of independence they hope to complete this project of a new India. I think this is the major lesson or feature of Independence Day this year that is on the 15th of August. You know it's quite striking that it's August 5th because just 4 days later, 4 days after that is August 9th which of course is the date when the Quit India movement begins in 1942. Significant dates in August they've chosen to bookend the beginning of this period August 9th and then August 15th Indian independence with this date. Governments generally are judged by their actions in a calamity. You know how in a calamitous situation how a government deals with the population is how really it should be judged. In India in the influenza of 1918 it seems about 60% of the world's death took place in India. We don't really know what the numbers will be like at the end of this particular pandemic. But it seems that the government in this case seems not to be really standing up and helping the people. In fact I'd like you to talk a little bit about the attack on labour rights that have taken place in the midst of the pandemic. You know when the government should be lifting up the population, helping the unemployed, helping migrant labour. Instead you've seen a concerted attack at labour rights. How would you understand, how do you understand the question of the attack at labour in the middle of the pandemic? You see what they've done during this pandemic in the last five months is to intensify or push through further the neoliberal agenda. Rather than immediately rendering relief to the people, help to the people who have lost their jobs and livelihoods. They have utilised this occasion to push for greater privatisation for instance. They have made a very ambitious plan of privatising public sector units in different areas of the economy. Not only in the economic sphere but also in terms of basic services for example education, health etc. The new education policy which they have just announced is going to promote further privatisation in education. So as part of that neoliberal agenda is of course the attack on the working class and the working class rights. And it began with the most brazen way it was done which is that in states, BJP rule states like Madhya Pradesh now and Uttar Pradesh. They have just suspended labour laws for three years. They say labour laws won't be in operation for three years. Other states have increased the working hours from 8 to 12 hours by ordinances or by notifications. So there is an outright attack on the working class at the very time when the working class is subject to this economic deprivation and coercion. At the same time they are taking away the democratic rights of the workers. So this is the other side of this neoliberal onslaught. Greater privatisation, more concessions have been given to big corporates and to foreign capital. And the name of promoting greater investment and ease of doing business. That is the most favourite phrase of the government now. Labour laws which are supposed to be rigid and a chronistic they are being done away with. 13 states have tinkered or suspended labour laws during the pandemic. And this at a time when I said that millions of informal sector workers, unorganised sector workers who are called mainly migrant workers. They have already lost their livelihoods and have no social security benefits whatsoever. So the target is now the organised sections, the organised labour. They would like to also discipline them in the name of inviting more investments both private, Indian and foreign. You know it strikes me that the government is inviting foreign investment. The Prime Minister is sitting in Ayodhya talking about this liberation of Ram and so on. And then these jet fighters arrive from France, the Raphael fighters. There's an enormous symbolism taking place where corporate capital, this Ram Mandir and then these French purchased fighter jets become symbolically the way in which this government is suggesting that it's doing something. Meanwhile of course as you just said informal workers sent back to their homes, no real help from the government, nothing really happening. These jet fighters come into India at the same time that the United States is putting immense pressure on China, almost imposing a war at the doorstep of India. India going along with this as part of the Indo-Pacific strategy, the Quad and so on. I mean how does an ordinary person, a sensible thinking person, a sensitive person wrap their heads around the fact that in a time of emergency and calamity, the Indian government is on the one side wanting to build a temple, on the other side bringing in fighter jets which will be part of an American pressure campaign against China and thirdly attacking its own citizens who are starving in their homes. How does a sensitive person wrap their heads around this? Well this is the nature of the ethno-religious nationalism which is now being promoted by the BJP and the RSS. This religion based nationalism takes, embraces the most reactionary neoliberal agenda. It is pro-imperialist without any, you know, qualifications and it is going to be increasingly chauvinist and militaristic, you see. So the big business in India, the big capitalists in India are being told, here is a great opportunity for you. You also get into the defence production arena, you see. They are being tempted to come in, you see, they are salivating at the prospect that, you know, you will have hundreds of thousands of crores worth of projects now, you see. This is one of the aspects of the so-called Atman-Nirbar Bharat. Though it's not going to come about so easily very soon. They'll need to keep importing sophisticated weapons like Rafale. But don't underestimate this appeal that here in the country, the concept of nationalism has been hijacked into this ethno-religious type of nationalism. You see, that is what is, it's a great pull it has. The most, we saw it in the last Lok Sabha elections in 2019 that people being interviewed by the media. They were saying, we have no jobs, we are not able to earn anything. But when asked who will you vote for, we'll vote for Modi because Modi is making India a great part. He has taught Pakistan a lesson, you see. So the temple is representative of this nationalism that, you know, now India is, you know, regaining its lost glory, you see. And on the other hand, anti-Pakistan or anti-China, this is India asserting itself as a great power once more. And the third thing is this link up with imperialism, which is actually compromising our national sovereignty, you see. Which is compromising our nationalism is posed as, this is the alliance which will help us to become a great power, you see. So this fits in with this most chauvinistic type of nationalism. And this is fed to the people to say, even if you're not able to get enough food, even if you're not able to get enough wages, even if you do not have enough to provide for your children's education, don't worry, the sacrifices you're making is going to make India great. This appeal of nationalism is something we have not yet seriously taken into account and counter. And in the coming days, you see, this nationalism has to be countered, not by abandoning nationalism, you see. In the west, there is in the left, I think nationalism is a bad word, you see. For us in India, nationalism means anti-imperialist nationalism. Nationalism means an inclusive nationalism which brought all sexual people together to fight for liberation, for political independence. And nationalism is also now in the era of imperialist globalization and the predatory nature of neoliberal capitalism. It's a defense of national sovereignty to see that your national resources and the needs of your people get priority over everything else and not the requirements or needs of international finance capital. So how to bring about that nationalism is a big challenge before us. Otherwise, you can't fight this nationalism. And of course, the last point connected with this is, today all are bemoaning the liberals, everybody, the constitution is in danger, democracy is in danger, secularism is in danger. So they gone saying, let us save democracy, save the constitution, etc., etc. But saying that is not enough because the constitution, they are working within the constitution and subverting it from within, you see. They are working within the political democratic system and subverting it from within. So the form of authoritarianism which you have today is something which you cannot fight simply by saying save the constitution and save democracy. You have to fight this religious based nationalism and the reactionary neoliberal agenda and this pro imperialism by intensifying the class struggle without bringing the working people into action, you see. And through class struggle alone, can you even hope to rescue some of these Bushward democratic or Bushward liberal institutions. The Supreme Court or the bureaucracy, the judiciary, none of them are going to save you. They are all going to go with this tide. That's what happens, you see, because they will get the judiciary to follow their path and example. So within the framework of the constitution, you see, after all Ayodhya, the temple was allowed or granted to the plaintiffs from the Hindu side after going through all the motions of looking at it through the questions of law, the principle of, even the, the mention of secularism is there I think 23 times of that judgment. How we are to uphold secularism and then you give the temple to and say it can be built in the same place as the so you cannot fight this by depending on the institutions, the state or the Bushward liberal institution state, which was set up under this republic in 1950, only when you can get the people to come out and fight. And how to fight, we are seeing the resistance, even during the pandemic, despite all the problems and limitations, the attack on workers, which you refer to the three day strike of the coal mine workers. 5.3 lakh workers took place, three day strike last month. Two days strike of the scheme workers, this workers mainly in the care sector, Asha workers in the healthcare, Anganwadi workers in the childcare, midday meal workers school, lakhs of them went on a strike just last week for two days. So even under the pandemic conditions, the working class has begun to resist. Now we have to widen and intensify these struggles and movements as situation improves, the COVID situation improves and build a very powerful movement which will encompass all these three aspects, fight for democracy, fight for the livelihood and right economic rights and fight against the erosion of national sovereignty and the pro imperialism which the Modi regime has brought in. You see, so this is the way we have to look on independence David, how do we go forward. Without that, just saying, you know, we hope the Supreme Court will realize its constitutional responsibilities and start defending the fundamental rights of citizens is not going to happen. We have had the bitter experience now for the last six years. So the Independence Day should be a day we take the pledge to intensify the class struggle and the mass movements and the popular mobilizations without which we are not going to be able to fight back this in the authoritarian regime. You know, we're talking on August 13th, just a few days before Independence Day today is the birthday of Fidel Castro, a man who well understood exactly what you're talking about in terms of anti imperialist nationalism. You know, they galvanize the Cuban people around a patriotic project, positive patriotic project to confront imperialism. There's one thing one side of the struggle for socialism is to intensify the class struggle. The other side is the positive alternative. And one of the, I think, cannot not talk about the fact that in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, the left front, left Democratic front government in Kerala has shown the possibility of an alternative form of governance, different kind of way of governing. You know, as I said, one way to galvanize people is in the class struggle against something. The other way is to galvanize people for something. And here in the Indian context, there is, I think, the great example of what the government is doing in Kerala. In a few minutes, could you talk a little bit about the left Democratic front government in Kerala and what it has been doing to confront the challenges before the people now? As far as Kerala is concerned, you see, this pandemic has brought out something vividly before the people of India, which is the absolute necessity of public health systems. Kerala's alternative which you spoke about is something which has been built over a period of decades, where public health, public education, public distribution system, local self-government, decentralization of powers, all this is now coming into play in fighting the COVID. Because it's not only a public health system, you have to get the people, it's the local bodies, it's the panchayats and the panchayat samyathis and the district, you know, Jilal Parishad. They are the people actually implementing most of the anti-COVID measures and policies. This contact tracing, for example, isolation, seeing that quarantine is happening. This cannot be done just by the health workers alone. The health system is done through this network of institutions, particularly the decentralized form of government or local bodies that we have. It's at a time when all these years, since the last 1990s, there has been an attempt to cut down and weaken whatever public health or public education system that existed in India. People don't know, Kerala still has a much bigger private sector in health. See, 70% of the health care is in the private sector. But this 30% that is there in the public health, that is an effective public health delivery system. It is viable and in the last four years, the LDF government has taken important steps to upgrade and expand public health institutions and the network. That is what has stood Kerala in good stead in this pandemic, which is in stark contrast to the situation broadly in the rest of India. So the first lesson from this pandemic is when you talk about an alternative, the alternative to a neoliberal model, you need a strong public health system. You see, you need a strong public educational system. You need public provisioning of essential commodities. You need a network of decentralized local body institutions with popular participation. So this is the alternative model. That is the only model we could have with the very limited powers of state governments. You can't go for much more fundamental changes. It's not possible in a state alone, but where we have little power in education, health, land reform and local body, panchayats, etc. This is under the purview of the state. We have shown that there can be an alternative. I think that's what has stood out very clearly by the Kerala experience of this fighting the COVID. It's the 100th anniversary of the Indian Communist Movement. We've been speaking to Prakash Karat, Politburo member of the Communist Party of India Marxist, former General Secretary of the Party. Prakash Karat, thanks for being with us at NewsClick.