 how's your energy? I know the day has been long and you have a lot been a lot of sessions you probably your head is like overwhelmed right now. People that are sitting on the back if you could sit on the table because pretty soon we're gonna have an exercise and I want you to wake up I don't want you to sleep so get on the table and we can start. This is the session if you are if you are not on the right session still stay don't go. A little bit about me. I live in Canada that is the Canadian soldier uniform. I managed to get one just to do the picture and then I put it back and I pretended it wasn't me. I've been around in the industry in the software development for a long time although I don't look like thank you. I've been changing my job often so I've been trying I started as a developer that that's what I did in school and then I changed I started the project manager I said oh my god what is this thing and I moved to scrum master I'm more of that personality person role that fit better for me and now I'm an agile coach. Yeah I speak on a lot of conferences it is my first time in India I'm very excited to be here I'm very excited to talk with this crowd you guys seem really interested in agile and you have done some really good stuff so I'm really looking forward to do this together because I'm interested on what are you gonna think about the session. Okay so one thing that we're gonna do here it's about putting the value first right you probably heard it in a different ways and different messages from different speakers all day along about value putting it first think about it right what I'm gonna help a little bit is how to do that so some tools around it that might help you in a more practical way. Who's familiar with story mapping? So there are some people. Story mapping is one of the most exciting tools that I use as a coach with product owners usually at the beginning when we have agile teams starting product owners are struggling on how to create now these way of managing requirements in an agile way they are used with producing those long big documentations right and they have a hard time helping the team that is trying to think small to work agile to to do these iterations so what about me product owner who's gonna help me on how to do this so story mapping is one of the tools that product owners really find it useful. Hi I'm saying everyone sit on the tables don't sit there so if you came late sit on the table so the way story mapping is created Jeff Patton is is the guy that originated this and the way he he starts is think about the goals of your application of your solution of your whatever you're building and think of the goals in a sequential way so what do you do in order to achieve something now so sequential right from the timeline now you don't do that just from the goal point of view you want to mix that together even with the users because if you think just goals or if you think just users you don't get that context you don't get the relations between them and you're gonna miss you're gonna miss you're gonna miss a goal you're gonna miss a user you're gonna miss the needs of a user to achieve a goal so you want to do this together right you start with the user in mind and the goals in mind and every step that you need to take in order to achieve the final product goal and then what you do is you take the goals and you split them into activities right so you take that big thing and you split it into smaller ones and then you take that those each of those and you split it even more into stories so it is going from this big story from this big thing that we're doing into splitting in the smaller and then go deep into it take one of the activities go deeper into it and break it break it break it down so this is the concept and the way the way Jeff uses this it is also not just to create the sort of like the backlog of the whole project of the product that we're building but even to help with how we're gonna do this later so story mapping is gonna be the tool that we're gonna use today and if you haven't used it before it's wonderful because you're gonna have a chance to build the very first story map in your life how exciting is that okay so we're gonna do this in different steps and during the talk we're gonna have some exercises so you're gonna build this as we go in an iterative way guess what we are job so as an example of here we're gonna go with priorities as an example of a story mapping here it is something that I've done before to give you just an idea in this case I was building an app to use a taxi think of it before Uber kind of world right so as you can see I took these three big goals request booking select a taxi and make a payment and the users that I have there is it you the person that is asking for a taxi it is the dispatcher and then is the taxi driver right can you think of any other user or any other goal that I missed maybe you can if you put some more thinking into that payment gateway well we're not there yet we're just saying payment right because payment can be done in so many ways as you can see is a payment estimation is a safe in-app option or I pay the driver and I pay the driver cash or I pay the driver with a credit card or I pay the driver with the app with the app pay thingy so there are different ways but I'm not there yet right so right now I'm just building the top the very first two layers first the you the persona that is you needs to order needs to request a booking the dispatcher can help with that then you move into selecting a taxi then you move into having the ride with a taxi driver and then you pay and it's done right you arrive to the destination you pay that's it now I'm taking all of these goals and I'm breaking them down as we said right we're breaking them down now into activities for example request booking I can schedule time I can choose the pickup location and I can choose and I have even an option if someone doesn't have a smartphone believe it or not there are still people that do not have a smartphone out there and we need them as customers to they need to go around right they need taxes selecting a taxi I'm splitting that into online available or online not available right that's how I I'm see it and when it came to payments we kind of looked at it now that I have the activities I take them and I break them down into I go deep I take just one of them right for example schedule time all the things that I can think about how to schedule a time right so some of the options I have there is immediate pickup later pick up select a pickup time or change of booking pick another one no smartphone I send a text message or I book online pick another one for example for online not available I I'm the only option I have there is list available taxi companies to call right when I'm not calling from an app I'm just going online I need a list of taxi companies available and I can pick one of them and I can call them so as you can see we take one big thing we break it down and then we break it down more into smaller ones so what I'm gonna ask you to do is to start getting used to this before I move on with how to use story mapping I want you to actually build a story mapping a story map you have a white flip chart sheet on your table and you should have also some stickies so if tables are too big feel free to join this table there's still room here spread yourself in a way that you can fit nicely and you can cooperate so the flip chart located the stick is located you should have also some pens around or pencils right so what I want you to do is to build your own story map I'm gonna give you an exercise if you are from the same organization or if you are a team that is working on the same project is any like that are you sitting like are you from the same team you work together and you are sitting together are you you are that would be good if you take a project that is your own right I'm giving here an example but you can make it useful take your own project and build a story mapping for your own project so you can take it tomorrow to work and show it to your team and say here it is the plan for the next six months for the ones that are not together on a team and then they need something to think about building a story map what we're gonna do is we're building a training site so think of Naresh for example he wants to start building a training like he has the the conference app he wants to build one for training and what he wants there those are the things that we know so far so there will be a training admin team that will manage course description details booking etc right so it's gonna be an admin team we're gonna need an admin site kind of things to manage trainings the next one is gonna be employees will be able to browse possible courses by category by daytime by trainer so as an employee I go now to the system and I need to browse the possible courses right the next one as an employee I will need to be able to create and manage registrations and provide feedback after the training so after I've selected a training and I've gone to the training right I took the training physical face-to-face with the instructor now I need also to provide the feedback the next one is training admin will be able to analyze feedback and work on creating courses tailored to employees needs so someone we are job we want feedback right we're not kidding here so after we do these trainings we want some feedback and we're gonna work on those certain feedback right so this is what we're doing here someone is gonna take your feedback is gonna use it to make the courses better for the next wave of employees that want to take courses so what I wanted to do is on those charts with the sticking out to start build your story map just to give you an idea because the time is kind of limited and I want you to start thinking more about stories and activities and all of that this can be the beginning feel free to add if you want but this is one way to start you have a user that is an employee and you have another user that is the administrator and the goals are gonna be managed courses register and then manage feedback right and also as an example I'm giving you even the very first one I broke it down for you so what you need to do is either add more and finish the the other two questions on what to do or are we all clear good all right time starts now go yes you're gonna have about 20 minutes so start with the users and the goal right before that going deep scared to write the sticky put it there if it doesn't look good throw it out they're cheap right don't don't worry about it so try don't don't don't be scared yes yes otherwise how can you give feedback yeah it's right now we're not there yet do you have a lot of stickers do you have like like do you have like a hundred of stickers oh come on do you have 50 come on you have four minutes left right 50 stickers how did it feel how did it feel to go first horizontal without going deep I know that team had a little bit of struggle with that right you started going deep any other team that had you guys were a little bit also you started going deep on one so is it a little bit different this one where we're saying don't go deep until you understand the whole thing right so this is probably one lesson learned what else came up how did it feel while you did this anything else teamwork you need those specialists I think I think this is that part where Naresh said when I said everyone has done their job and now get together so this is collaboration even as per Naresh definition so analyzing analyzing so how did that analyzing go did we have to analyze a lot or what is confusing guess why I didn't include the trainer I have no reason to minimize myself at this point because I want to see the whole thing end to end but the thing is that this system is not gonna care about who the trainer is right the only two users that I have in the system is the administrator and the employee trainers have no need to do anything in the system trainer is the one that does the training but the training is face-to-face does not use the system so from that point of view the trainer is not my user I don't care about the trainer exactly he is not using my app right so so that is one that is why this one focused me that's why I was saying you need to use both goal and user at the same time because they keep you focused otherwise you go in so many directions and you get lost something else anything else that came up that's a good thing or a bad thing yeah yeah yeah so visualization we're talking about how you visualize the whole thing and that is one of the strengths of story mapping it's called you see the forest and the trees you can see the whole forest you can see the whole store is everything end to end and then at any moment at any time you can go deep down to one tree to one story it's not lost right you don't have that anxiety that some people say hey I know about this story right and you're like if you don't put it in there if you don't relate it to the rest of the goals and the activities it gets lost but like this we put it it is there everyone has given their ideas everyone has given the point of views so you have it all in there and it is all in well organized in this matrix so I hope you enjoyed this part because we're going to use the same story map that you started we're going to use it again later on yes yes we do have tools to do this they're called stickies and sharpies so you can I think I think for teams that work remotely and they need to do this there is a cardboard I think it's called and Jeff pattern yeah that one storyboard so there are some digital tools but the power of this is to do it face-to-face I've done this with 48 people in the room in a half a day we're able to plan out a project for six months and they were all specialists that knew only one area they knew only this part of the whole system right and together when we started doing we laid down first the big picture and then when we wanted to go deeper and deeper in two sections everyone brought their point of view and it was beautiful because we ended up with like you're gonna see a picture at the end of the story map that we created so okay beautiful we have now story mapping we did it you know what is this this is your project backlog but it is organized and you know what else you don't need to write those stories those yellow ones you don't need to write them in that format as a user I want something so that because you already have the user and you already have the so that the user and the goal are there all you have is that nut shell that you want to do right so it is also it helps the conversation you don't need to go through the whole format long form repetition and all of that you just focus on the important part okay so now what we do we take this and we said okay dear product owner you gave us the goals you gave us the user designers brought all the UX experience to us we build all this technical team product owner designers all worked together and created the stories so we have now this nice beautiful backlog what do we do with that the usual thing we do we put the product owner on the spot and say prioritize this for us and sometimes product owners like what do I do it's like that light that is in front of my eyes right that totally like okay I don't know what to do with this and the whole team is looking at that product owner and expect the product owner to know everything so there are different tools that product owners can use to help themselves and the teams on how to identify out of this big story map what are the things that are really important and I'm gonna show you three but I'm gonna work on one more than the other so one way is the hundred dollar allocation this first time I've heard about this is when I was working at a company that created a product for Pixar Pixar is the movie company that does animations and what they did there they took stakeholders the team took the stakeholders they said okay these are the things you ask from us one two three four five features you have a hundred dollars how much each of these features costs for you how much would you pay for each of these feature and like that you put the product owner on directly on that return of investment mindset because you are giving them the investment part and you're saying to them which one of these feature gives you the highest return on this investment and and the other thing is it forces if you have more than one product owner and usually there are more than one product owner because there are multiple stakeholders and you need to pull from all of them it forces them to talk with each other it forces them to you know what I think this one it's important and the other guy goes well no because for my organization this one is important well which one is more important for the whole company it's not about just one side of the business or the other side of the business is about the company together so it forces them to look from the bigger picture and to define out of all these features what is the most important for the organization here it is an example on how someone can allocate a hundred dollars when they are going to buy a new car based on the priorities I see that this person is a family person because they put priorities on savings on the gas and they need a four-door car they don't need the two doors sporty I don't care how much gas spends I can go around and don't care right so from this I see that is a family person and is looking on saving and looking on costing is looking for a car that is economical right so depending who you are you prioritize these features differently and this is what we do with stakeholders depending what your business is depending what the goals of the companies are what is the most important there are some sheets here I have printed at the end you can come and pick up one I have a little bit more explanations for each of these for this to explain it more if you want to read it after another another model that I suggest to product owners to use is the Kano model anyone seen this before agile coaches of course so Kano Kano was a was a Japanese professor and he came up to this model because he wanted to prove that not all every time not for everything more is better so what he found was that we have different type of features on a product some features are the must be we cannot call that a product if that feature is not there we cannot even send it out to to any customer we cannot put it on market for example a car has four wheels nobody goes to a dealership to buy a car and says I want a car and I wanted to have four wheels and I wanted to have a steering wheel no it is understood that a car has four wheels right if a car doesn't have those four wheels I'm not even considering to buy it so these are the must be features and these are the features that they need to be there and the customer if they are not there the customer is not happy at all but when they're there they're expected so not big deal right so these are you can see on the feature complete how complete is the feature or how when the feature is missing so you can see when the feature is missing the customer is very dissatisfied the second type of features are the performance features this is where now we are in competition this is where my car is better than your car this is where my car spends less gas than your car this is where I don't know my phone is better than your phone right so this is the competition this is where now we are in market we have the features but we are competing and this is where more is better because now we get clients to come to us because we provide better results better robust features and all of that right the next one is the delighters delighters are the features that the customer has no idea that they might exist but when they see them they love them a very good example I don't know if you have seen it is my cone that says his his wife long time ago was shopping for a car and she went to dealership one and she found the car that had everything she wanted to see in a car but she said you know what I want to go and see some more some other cars so they went to this other dealership and she saw a car that did not have everything she wanted but she had cup holders this car she could put her coke and it stays there and it was beautiful it was as I said long time ago when cars didn't have cup holders she was so torn between these two cars just because this one had this delighter feature she forgot about the car that had everything she wanted and she wanted this one just because had this delighter so she was like okay I don't know what to do or I don't know which one to buy and she didn't buy any car until that other that the dealership the company that had everything she wanted came up with a new model that had the cup holder and then she bought the car so this is these are the delighters these are those features that sometimes some some customers don't even wait for it to be ready they buy your car just because it had that they buy your product just because it has that feature so product owners can start looking at the features that they create like this out of all the story map they created out of all these features they can start defining what is a must what is a performance and what is a delighter again there are more I do have some handouts on this come after and pick one if you are more interested on the on this model the other model is the value point and this is the one that we're going to use on the story mapping that we created that we started so what we do with this the value point we start from the goal we break that down right just like we have it right now we have that broken down into stories and we start deciding some points the goal is you're gonna have a thousand points that are gonna be split on all the goals on your story map so for example you have three or four goals split a thousand points on these goals and decide which one is more important and which one is less you start taking that from the goal and you start breaking it down into activities so the sum of all the activities need to sum up the value of the goal right so in this case for example activity to is really important the other ones less right and then you take that and you break it down into stories to decide which one of these stories is really important again the value needs to add up to the goal number so this is a simple way that forces a little bit the product owner to think now value where is this value out of all the story map out this forest that I created which one are those trees that are really important that define this product that we're building whoa whoa whoa where was I so I'm gonna take you through the exercise of how I put points into the taxi app that I did so out of a thousand points the way I thought is that requesting a booking is very important I want people to start requesting taxi rides from my app so I put their 500 stories selecting a taxi is the next most important for me because soon I'm gonna have my own company that has taxes right and that is gonna give me more revenue right now I have a list of companies that are partners right I give those choices to my customer and they can pick and I get some percentage out of all the sales that I do the payment it is the least important why because it can be dealt with the driver right now if I know that I'm giving a business that my customer has a ride and gets a taxi I know that at some point that taxi driver is not gonna let that person go without money right and right now the taxi driver has a way to get money out of the customer so I am not too worried about the payment I know it's gonna happen somehow but I want to get to there so that's why I put more more points on the requesting and then I started breaking the down into activities and as you can see again with that mindset I put I put more points into the activities that were very important for me and then I broke that down into stories as you can see they always end up with the same business value that I ended up to put on the goal so this is a simple math but it just helps with figuring out the most important thing with that prioritization if we're gonna say very often you're gonna find that some of those stories there will end up with zero points you haven't even started developing and right away you can notice that some of those have very little value is it worth spending time on analyzing or working on those yet no right why are we talking about something that has ten point value when I have something that has hundred or hundred fifty so from here we need now to consider even the size okay we have this business value but what happens if the story that has a high business value is very big in size right I have a story that has hundred fifty business points but it takes two months to be done and I have a story that has a hundred points and it takes two weeks to be done which one should I pick two weeks I'm hearing here two weeks make sense who thinks I should pick the two month one anyone it does make sense you we can break it down if we want and when we break it down yeah so and if we break it down then the two stores for example you break it down into two or three they need to add up into the sum of this one and then again you need to choose the highest value out of all these right and again what's going on there you are taking out of this big story that you had you're narrowing down to the really core function that really brings the value out of all this so you're removing all the fluff and you're getting into the core of it but it just the size matters that's the point the size helps us make decision the size helps us either break it down or choose something else how do we get the size the product owners usually ask the technical team because technical teams can say a high size a high level size of the work that is to be done without going in too much details I know you probably use story points a lot but I don't want to go too much into details because right now again we are in a very high level we are story mapping right again the stories that we created are just ideas that we thought so without going in too much detail we can give a sense of a medium large or extra large or small so just like a t-shirt sizing or I don't know if you if you are familiar even with a coffee cup sizing right where the sizes are relative the sizes doesn't mean that the medium is too smalls right the medium is just a little bigger than the small the large is just a little bigger than the medium but they're not exactly like two times or three times bigger than each other they are relative so from that point of view the product owner can get that kind of sizing from the technical team to make a decision now what's going on any question so far yes so these are two as I said there are two different actually three different ways to help the product owner the dollars the hundred dollar allocation was one more way the Canon model was one way the value point is one way this one we're using just the value point the not always not always because we're looking value point is not always in case you are not listening a value we have the question here that value point is always proportional with the dollar value right not always because we can find a story that has a really high value and impact but it doesn't cost much to do it right this is where I said the size matters because if we consider now something that has a high value 150 points but takes two months and something that is 100 points but takes two weeks we're choosing the smaller one because it costs less and we get that return on that investment faster so it's not always it doesn't mean always they're equal no yeah so so when we estimate the question is when we estimate we usually use the time takes to complete is that the right thing I'd say no time is only one of the factors that we use on the estimation so when we estimate we estimate the time we estimate the effort we estimate the complexity we estimate the unknowns so we estimate a lot of things risk big we take all of these in consideration and then we make a decision of the size it's a really good article Mike Conas when he explained how the story points work he says for example if I want to move from here to there it is pretty simple and straightforward I'm walking and that's one point the distance stays the same but if in between there now it's big deep hole that adds risk because now I have to jump I have to prepare myself so that's adding more complexity more effort for me I'm not just walking I need now to jump and if it's a volcano it's even more complex right so it's not just the time time is only one of the factors that you need to consider makes sense we need to consider more risk is really high right what do we do in Agile we work with highest risks first because we learn from them so you need to consider that what we do now when we do now is from this story map that we have we come up with the minimum viable product so this is where now we said that product owner is going to start now prioritizing and helping how we're going to get out of all this big backlog that we created minimum viable product have you heard this term before yeah everyone yeah I'm pretty sure you have if you're here you have heard that so minimum viable product is the smallest set of stories that when put together give value to the product to the users and users can use that users can give us some feedback we can learn out of it so when we decide what to do next we do it based on feedback but it has to be small because we want to learn quick we want to learn fast if it is big we have to wait a long time to learn and we are making a lot of problems we are creating a lot of fun we are creating a product that we don't know if we are creating the right one so out of all of this we need to create that feature sets we need to get up get out of all of the story mapping out of all these features that we created that set of features that are going to give us those minimum viable product another way that is used depending on the industry depending on the context that you are is the minimum if marketable feature set again what is minimal you can see those cars minimal is something that has four wheels in this case and can go forward and then you can add more into that you can come up to the Hummer you don't need the Hummer right away if you have proven that it's moving forward right so you need that small minimal one that gives you a little bit of feedback a friend of mine mad bar comp he came up with Smurfs it's easy to remember it's easy to to refer to it you guys are familiar Smurfs those little blue creatures cartoons for kids Smurfs yes and specifically marketable understandably reasonable feature sets so what do we do here it is marketable we can put it in the market it has some of those must features that we said from the counter model right understandably reasonable we're not making something huge something really expensive we're making something that is reasonable and it gives us feedback feature sets you don't have to do just one feature you might need to do a set of features that when working together give some value to the user so I want you now to think about what are we gonna do how we're gonna use this in an existing system yeah it's beautiful we're starting a new project we're starting a new application it is all cool and beautiful what about legacy systems what about systems that we need to maintain any idea can we use story mapping for this minimum viable product for those he's saying yes any any knows anyone thinks that no it doesn't work but still Kanban needs someone to say what is the next feature to work on so Kanban is just a process that we use Kanban doesn't is not gonna help product owner to choose to prioritize to order features it is an existing system but it's coming up with a lot of issues from production adding or adding or fixing right so it is not about just we have a system that is already working it's about keeping the system going keeping the system still valuable for customers so the answer is yes we can still use story mapping for that and the way it works if even the feature set mindset right the way it works is again you find the smallest valuable feature out of all the things that the customers are complaining which one is the smallest change that is gonna bring a lot of value out of all the phone calls that our support team gets 80% of those are probably for one feature believe it or not if you fix that one you decrease the number of support calls right so you're saving in a way but you're making your system even more nice for your customers for your end users so pick those find the areas where the system it's gonna get better more robust with the customer in mind with the end of customer in mind another thing is to deliver to users and gather feedback so yes you think you are fixing now something do you really fixed it do you know that so you need to get that feedback and the feedback comes from either surveys other analytics other support calls other operations right so there are different ways that you gather that this feedback that you gather this information on your change but you need that right you you learn from those and those are the ones that help you make decisions and the next thing we do we repeat you don't do this once you continually do this you make one change you learn from it now you do it again now you go through again through find the smallest valuable feature make the smallest change and get the feedback repeat again so you can use the same thing even with the legacy system so I want you now to go back and we're gonna do another exercise we're gonna continue on the story mapping that you started and what we're gonna do is we're gonna create now this MVPs we're gonna create MVPs for the story map that you started here it is one way that I started out of all of these I decided that scheduling time and choosing the pickup location are very important for me but what I need there right now just to prove my app I'm picking only the immediate pickup and to enter the location I'm not asking about the GPS to find the location of the customer I'm saying customer please type your location when it comes to no smartphone I'm gonna leave that group for now most of the people have smartphone I know I need to take care of these people but not right now when it comes to online availability I select taxes available from the taxi company I'm not caring too much about the online not available so I'm not going to select from all the available taxes on the payment I'm choosing these in-app secure payments and get received by email this is my first MVP as you can see I chose the ones that had high business value that helped me right the value points helped me and I chose also one here one that had really small 35 points but what it does if we go back to that feature set it makes the user experience more valuable more meaningful more exciting right so I choose all the highest business values and I choose something that it is small but it makes the my first MVP more complete with the same mindset I also chose the other two MVPs so right now what I have I've broken my story mapping into MVPs I want you to do the same with your story mapping you're gonna have 15 minutes but right now I'm right now I'm not considering those users right now I'm not considering the users that need GPS right now I'm saying just enter later on I had the GPS but in this case I don't need it well then you pull it then you use it so if a story cannot be used then you pull it you pull the next story that needs to go with it but usually we are going then out of the concept of what a story is story is invest and the I stands for independent so one thing if you look at the story map story map takes care of dependencies because in order for me to get to the received by email I need to do something before it so by the time I am at the story here I have considered all the stories that I need to do on different system on different steps in order to get here so dependencies are taken care when I go horizontally and I slice that MVP right so this is now where we take in consideration everything that we have put but we are looking horizontally in order to achieve this goal what do I need to pull so you have now 13 minutes to do your MVPs earn business value EBV stands for earn business value right you can see out of each MVP how my business values increases is created yeah so you need to start putting points and then you need to start drilling down the very first MVP there the horizontal is immediate pickup enter location select available text so that is my first no so MVPs are horizontal yes exactly so that is when I start considering the technical input if they've told me in this case I'm considering they are more or less the same value but same estimation yes yes so that's why we said the size matters because it helps yeah not the cost thing the effort yes and then you then then then you create the MVP based on that combination business value plus effort and I say you guys so give me your your MVP you you didn't choose this right you chose another one okay give me a sense of your product your first MVP what are you gonna do no no just the first MVP all I care is the first MVP okay easy just so you see something created right so they're creating a schedule for a conference and they're just going to do them just the minimum just to create a session and to and register for that session okay who has a first MVP for this one okay what you guys got what is your first MVP registration participant attendance complete the training now feedback well good good we need feedback but you are not writing code for it right you are giving them a piece of paper complete the piece of paper before you leave wonderful what is your MVP much bigger can we make it smaller it has to be minimum okay so so you get a sense I hope the conversation there was more important than what you came up and there is not one right question the one right answer right everyone considering the team that you have considering the where you are considering the complexity of the systems that you have you choose what makes sense for you but think small things minimal if you are if you can do something manual at the beginning do manual because manual is cheaper than writing code as long as it gives you feedback as long as you learn from it don't spend time with a code write a piece of paper it's good so this is one way so you kind of finished your story map right I wanted you to review it and get done with the first MVP so we went through this I want you to get a little bit of sense of why are we thinking like this if we look between value and time and if we're trying to get the return on this investment that we're doing at the beginning as you saw we chose the highest value right we work on the most wonderful valuable thing that we have chosen after that the MVP to if you looked at the story map that I had the first MVP had a very high earned business value the second MVP had a lower business value I'm gonna go back just to show you that here see the first MVP has 450 earned business value the second one is 420 and the third one is 130 right so as you can see the business value that we earn keeps going down because we work on less valuable set of features it comes to a point where we're saying the time not the time the cost of the team is the same for example in a sprint two weeks the cost of the team stays the same but the value is going down is it worth it to put money on a feature that is gonna cost us as much to create as it did the very first one but the return is gonna be really low is it it is not worth unless we would have put in more money more business value on it right and this is where we start now discussing and being smart about what we choose to do usually what we do is in a traditional way a team has a set of projects lined up they have project one project two project three project four and what we do we start with project on we do every single story on project one that is done now we move to project two every single story in project two guess what's going on with project three and four we're run out of money it's not gonna go maybe they're important so how about we look at them all at the same time we do the story mapping for them we start creating all of the goals and out of for example project one if we have a situation like this we choose what we're gonna do we pick the highest value on project one that and maybe even that because it's a high value story rather than continue on working on project one on very low valuable features for the same cost of the team maybe we can go to project two and we can see what's going on on project two meanwhile all the customers of the project one are enjoying the features that we have delivered those high value features we are getting some feedback out of them the product owner is saying that thing that we did that first MVP on the project one you know what we just need to do it just a little bit more change on that but it's pretty good we don't need to do all the rest that we thought we would do meanwhile the team is working on project two and is starting creating more value there at the end of the project to right we can say which one do we want do we want to continue with the features that we left from project one or do we want to continue with the features left from project two or do we want to move to project three it is all now based on during things we have made the decision because we learned there is also one thing this is a story map that I did with the team that 48 people team that I mentioned beginning you can see how many stickies are there right they they we started putting them under each other because we didn't have enough space one thing that I always tell product owners is you are never ever gonna burn down the whole backlog because sometimes it just doesn't make sense to invest on something that gives you very little business value for the cost maybe you can find work around maybe you can find maybe you can live without it but you don't need to and don't invest too much time in analyzing into going too much deeper into those stories and prepare a lot of acceptance criteria and all of that if you think that it is not gonna be worth working on it put your efforts only on the one that bring value work on those learn from those and then move on to the next set of valuable features questions we are really tight with time how am I doing with time very little am I over time okay it is time up no more okay I'm gonna be around catch me and we can answer thank you