 Suspected bandits attacked the Nigerian Defence Academy in Afakha, Kaduna State, killed two officers and abducted a senior officer. Benway State Governor Samuel Autumn threatens to take the federal government to court on its grazing routes and reserves policy. This is PlusPolitik and I am Mary Annaclone. The bandits have attacked the Nigerian Defence Academy in Afakha in Kaduna State. They've killed two officers of the academy and abducted a senior officer. The incident has been confirmed by the academy spokesperson Bashar Jajira. According to witnesses, the bandits came in a large number in the early hours of Tuesday. Aside from the officers killed and kidnapped, some others sustained gunshot injuries and are currently receiving treatment. The attack on the military facility comes amid heightened insecurity in the North West. Recently, if we all remember, there were intelligence reports that Boko Haram flags were sighted at the Afakha Forest close to the NDA and Kaduna Airport. So what joining us to discuss this and break it down, let's see if we can make sense of it. We have Femig Badegou, he is a retired Air Vice-Masher and we're also being joined by Dennis Amakia, former Assistant Director with the Department of State Services. Thank you very much gentlemen for being here. Thank you. I couldn't have thought of a better set of people to have this conversation with. So I'm going to start with you Mr Badegou because obviously this is your constituency and I'm sure that most of the people who are part of our forces today trained in the NDA. When you hear a story like this or a headline like this, obviously it makes you think of so many things. But why would the NDA, because for me I'm not a soldier, I'm not in the military, but I would be thinking the F-1tree, where would these bandits get the F-1tree to hit a defense academy? As you are aware, the NDA is presently located in its common site, which is just short of the Kaduna International Airport and on the other side of the airport you have the Afaka Forest. That forest, which extends way back into, I think some arm of, you know, very extensive is the same area where you had the students of the School of Forest kidnapped and taken into. And so it's an open area that even though the NDA uses it for exercises, it has not been totally taken under control by the Nigerian military or I won't have expected that after the Afaka Forest, you know, the college forestry incidents that the army should have gone out to flush out that forest. Now the NDA itself is not a combat arm of Nigerian armed or the armed forces. It's a training institution and all it has is a battalion of soldiers that are armed and that are used for demonstration exercises when the students themselves have to practice engaging the enemy like when they go out on the bush for exercise and so on. So in terms of manpower, the battalion is not adequately equipped to secure the perimeter of NDA and one would have expected that really this kind of thing should not happen. But because of the situation that we're in, I think there's been an oversight in first of all not flushing out the forest and not beefing up security for the NDA. And you a little bit down a few kilometers down the road, it's also the air force base which has extended extensively backwards towards this same axis. So I think it's a serious wake up call for the defendants protest that we overseas in training institutions like NDA and JG and so on to consider positioning the right kind of manpower that will secure the place. But first of all, that forest needs to be cleaned out, whoever is in there needs to flush out. It is a very, very embarrassing situation and condolences of the families of those who died and we pray that effort is being made to secure the officer who was adopted. Let me go to you, Mr. Makri. He mentioned, Mr. Vadebo mentioned that they have live ammunition in that facility obviously when they want to have shooting practices, their live rounds. Could that have been the targets of these bandits? Could they have been in need of firepower? And that's why they decided to hit that target. Looking at the incident itself, I'm going through what actually happened. I don't think they were targeting bullets or arms that they want to take. I think they were trying to prove a point because if you remember, we mentioned this when the Forestry College was attacked that this thing is happening too near to call. And right now, we now have the manifestation where the bandits have actually tried it out. They must have been putting that institution under severe surveillance and then, of course, they drove in there because that tells you how long they have watched that gate. Because for somebody to wear a Ami Cabo and then drive in through with a vehicle through the main gate. I tell you that they've been observing the system and if you observe the system in most of our military installation, you'll find out that the guards are not taking it seriously, not seriously at all. A friend just told me that he just went down to one of the cantoners here in Lagos and drove through. In fact, he gave them some money and then without even checking his vehicle or checking who he is or his IT, he drove inside. So what are we up to? Really? We are not coming to the realization that Nigeria is under attack. Wow. It really begs the question of could it be that armed forces have been overly stretched or have they relaxed about this because, I mean, for this type of thing to be happening and the reports you just gave about somebody just driving into a military cantonment, I mean, it's something that, for us civilians, it's seen as a stronghold, it's a fortress. You cannot just drive into a military cantonment without being checked or anything. So I want to ask, and I will ask Mr. Badebo the same question. Could there be, let me use a word that was used earlier on today. Could there be someone who has dropped the ball or could all our armed forces have dropped the ball because this war is a bit beyond them? Well, my friend, Mr. Badebo dropped a very important point there. There's last city amongst our men. The reason is fatigue. Everybody gets tired. You can't keep being alert for 24 hours to 4.7 at some stage you need a break. We need to take a leaf from the United Nations, our men officers, I mean, men from the Nigerian armed forces and the police have consists been deployed on United because they do extremely well. Now, what happens there is that they have a regular rotation if you're in the combat area, you are withdrawn to a rest area, maybe for a weekend or so, every once in a while and every six months, they actually get to come back to Nigeria for maybe a two week break before they go back, all funded of course by the United Nations. We have situations where we keep troops continuously for maybe a couple of years in the Northeast or whatever and they're constantly on the tracks. Now, when you come back to the barracks, because they're overstressed, the manpower in the barracks is really maybe not as it should be. Let me not go into further details there, but so you have a situation where honestly, like I'm actually said, if you go to some companies in Nigeria, like manufacturing companies, you'll be shocked at what you the kind of checks and everything you go through before you go in and when you are leaving, there's a lot of screening. But when you go into some military installations, it's like he said, you just, you know, you drive through. I know that you go to Abuja to defense headquarters, the complex where the service chiefs are. Oh my God, you probably have to drop your car two kilometers away and go to work and then spring together. But that is not happening in every ministry installation and it should happen. And again, when you keep two men on guard for 24 hours or 12 hours, they do get tired. And so we must think about what a rotation are we putting in there. So we need orientation, both at the rear and in the front. It is for their own good to stop all the surprises happening. Yeah, let's talk about politicization of this whole war of war against terrorism, whether it be Banditry, whether it be Boko Haram, we see, I mean, we've had Governor Autumn speak this morning about, you know, the president's attitude towards dealing with the issue of Banditry. We've also had several other people complain about how this issue is being handled. Let's not also forget about the Cassinia State Governor who has resorted to self help. So and then there are those who are in a position to Mr. President bring some politics into it. Have we one way or the other over politicized this issue of terrorism so much so that it's somewhat made a mess of the situation. And it's not just, I've spoken to many experts, security experts who have said it's not just about the guns and the bombs. But then, of course, there has to be a technological way of fighting this. Why have we not necessarily explored all the avenues we have at our disposal to fight this war instead of politicizing it? I'll say it's because, I'll say it's because, you know, the language that is coming from, first of all, the presidency is not, it's not consistent. Then you have too many people who are speaking. You have the minister of information. Then you have two spokesmen for the minister. I mean, for the president who speak at will. You know, you have the minister of defense. You have the president. You have the governors. I mean, why are we having a pacifony of voices talking about security and nobody's calling anybody to order? You see, there is very little that the spokesmen for the president can say about security that will not run across purposes at what the military or the defense headquarters is doing. The defense headquarters itself has a spokesman. So why don't we have a situation where people limit themselves to what is really their business? And sometimes you find some of these spokesmen are speaking from position of anger. When you speak from a point of anger, you mess yourself up. You mess the situation up. So this is the problem we're dealing with. We need a clear direction coming from somewhere. And then everybody, when I was in the service, you don't talk to the press, no matter how highly placed you are, OK? There are certain people who are assigned that role to talk to the press. And so you find even commanders in the fields, that regardless of their rank, talking to the press, you find soldiers now voicing their grievances for whatever reason, it's not done. So something really needs to be sorted out. Mr. Macri, I want you to pick up from where he stopped. As he said, everybody seems to be speaking in some things that we've never, ever seen or heard from the armed forces we're beginning to see. I remember vividly, if I'm not mistaken, in 2016, if not 2017, when soldiers released a video of having to fight with moribund arms and being unable to match the firepower of the people that they were fighting, the terrorists. We've never seen that before. And so again, I'm asking, with all of this that's happening, how do we stop the politicization of this issue? Because he said that everybody's speaking. And so the army doesn't even know who to listen to or who they're taking orders from. Where do we go from here? I think the vice-minister is very correct that there is a cacophony of voices, discordant voices, which are coming out from government. Because when you find out, it goes back to tell you also that there is need for some kind of, should I say, a plan, a strategic plan that covers everybody. Now we're talking about the service chips. When they change them, they came in together and they've got some good strategic plan for the Northeast. And it is yielding results where you know how people surrender it. But we have left the other side open. And then, of course, some people see it as even when Nigeria makes suggestions. Some people see it as an attack, an attack on the government. I don't think so. And at the same time, we are asking people, the citizens, to put their hands on deck to fight this. Because you cannot fight this war all by the military themselves or the security agencies. You need the community. You need the civilian population. You need everybody to be given support. One way or the other, through either information or through some kind of physical support, logistical support, and stuff like that. But when it comes to giving the position of the military, I think they should even leave it. Because when I see sometimes people, divisional heads or battalion commanders even making press statements, and that is not helped by the social media where everybody now can broadcast. But the discipline is there whereby you don't have more than one person who is supposed to represent that obligation to be making statements that represent that obligation. So when we start talking and everybody is talking their own, people who are not even having a background in the military affairs will be telling you that, oh, the war will end in three months and stuff like that. I think that should be checked. Because remember, we are not the only ones listening. The bandits, the terrorists, they are all listening. And of course, with this cacophony, they know exactly which direction the government is going. Could this also mean that these guys, I mean, because I'm thinking, again, I'm not a military person, so I'm just thinking from a civilian standpoint and someone who's watching all of this play out. Could this have been a message of sorts that these bandits are sending to our troops and the country at large? Let's not also forget that Kaduna seems to be where there's a lot of abductions. It's happening every day. It's either a school or it's hospitals. It's happening every day. Could it be a message that these people are sending to not just the armed forces but the government of the day, not just Mr. President, but even the governor of Kaduna State, Governor El Rufai. I think this message is directly directed to the governor himself. You know, if you remember, we've discussed this before. When the governor himself was paying these bandits to stay away from his states. And they were, you know, not attacking anybody. But every month they will come and they take money and they go away. And he was even known or reported to have said that he will send this child to the public school. And he did. Now, when he stopped paying, they started attacking. And then as they started attacking, he withdraw his son from the school. Now, 5,000 schools are closed down in Kaduna State alone. Because these guys are not relented because they felt that, okay, if you don't pay, then we're going to make this state ungovernable for you. And they'll be busy attacking after attacking, you know. And I like the position because that's the position the governor should have taken earlier. Zero tolerance to ransom payments. Because when you continue paying them, what are you doing? You are enforcing them to go and use the money and come back at you. But like we said, if you are not paying ransom, then be ready to fortify the security forces. So that use that money you are supposed to be used for ransom, fortify them to go after. We know where they are. Afaka is there. If they carry out a military operation and say, yes, we are going to flog this people out. I am very, very sure the Nigerian military is up to the task and they can do it, you know. So I think it's a situation that we have to go back to the drawing board. I would say that it's a wake up call because we've given this call before. And if you continue, we will be surprised. The next place they are going to enter, you know. So I think let's do something about this now. Mr. Guadibor, I mean, I'm interested to, I mean, because he's asked a very interesting question or he's rather painted an interesting scenario that if there's a willingness to go into Afaka and flush these people out, they can. So my question to you, even though I know that you're no longer serving, is what's stopping the army from flushing these guys out? I mean, we spend so much money fighting terrorism. I mean, we fought Boko Haram for more than a decade and here we are with another hydro-headed monster. What's the challenge? The challenge is the direction from the leadership. You can see we are still fighting with nomenclature. In that, you know, somebody doesn't want the people to be called the right names. So we've coined bandits, we've coined terrorists, we've coined all kinds of names, but really we have to call them the right names and we have to deal with them decisively. The Nigerian army can take on these people if the war with all comes from the top. I believe that the way it is not coming. For instance, the press release that came out of NDA this morning was not what I was expecting. It was too tame. I expected that if this thing happened at like, let me, 1.30 a.m., before 6.00 a.m. today, you know, a few truckloads of armed soldiers should have moved into that forest to clear the place out. But it was, I'm sure Nigerians had an effort to be made to put everything together to recover the officer. But do you think maybe the arms of this, do you think that maybe the arms of our troops are tied, especially the men at the top? Do you feel that their hands are tied and that they would probably, because I don't think that they do not know what to do. If these same people, if the same group of soldiers do so well when they go for peacekeeping and they're like the best south of the Sahara, why is it so difficult to go into a forest that is within the confines of our country to deal with this bandits or Boko Haram? What exactly, could it be that their hands are tied? I'll tell you that, you know, for instance, if for some reason, Mr. President declared a state of emergency in one state, the formula is simple. He finds one serving a retired general and makes him the administrator of that state and immediately thinks the same thing. We saw what happened in that state. But this is a democracy. Can we really do that? Does the constitution allow for that? Because when you say it's a state of emergency, every democratic power is disregarded. And it means that you're calling for a military role. I'm using that as an example to tell you that in the same case, if somebody has made a tax force command for a small area, no matter how small the area is, we had a situation when we had tax forces going after smugglers and things like that in the past. People who are selling cars and Legos, if you go back like 20, 25 years ago. And it sometimes was as young as a major captain that was in charge of the tax force with some men. And they would go out and they would do what they needed to do. But the problem we're having is that we have tax forces with these last service shifts. We saw where the Air Force and the Army were at a lot of contests to show who was more active and so on. With these new service shifts, they came in and they said they were going to work together. And we've seen it in the notice. And that's why I'm saying that even before the other areas, you just need to find a force where the man is put in charge and he's getting orders either directly from his service chief or the defense headquarters. And he moves and does what he needs to do. This has not been done. And I think this is what we need to put in place now to begin to see that, yes, something is actually done. That tax force commander would... And I don't know if it's still happening, but we've always had this problem where operations are not properly funded. That's why you see the commanders that they are always going to the governor, the governor is always being with them and so on and so forth. So their funding is also at cross-proposals. If you want something done, you release the funds and you allow the commander to get his resources straight from the chief of defense staff or the minister of defense. So whether the governor is in support or not is not the issue there. Okay, finally, Mr. Makri, you have the last question tonight. Still talking about leadership here and clarity from our leaders and I'm putting Mr. President and all the governors in the North West on the table here. Do they seem a bit distracted to you? I know that you might say yes or no, but do they seem a bit distracted because what we see is governors going after each other's necks because political parties are gearing up for their congresses, they're gearing up for 2023, but then the backyards seem to be on fire and they seem a bit distracted. So might we be seeing much more of these kinds of hits if our governors do not display some form of clarity and leadership and Mr. President, he's part of this mix. If we do not see a display of clarity and leadership in a few months to come, in fact, even tomorrow, are we likely to see more of these kinds of hits happen? It is very, very unfortunate at this time whereby we have our politicians busy thinking of the next election. And when you come to think about it, why are you in government? It is very, very clear. The fundamental principles in our constitution for government is for the safety of life and property of Nigerians, but they are busy and because they are very busy now, many of them are not even thinking about what is going on in all those areas because you have the noticed people are happy that they are surrendering, but the bandits are striking in the Northwest and they are wondering what are you going to do about it? There are agitations in the South. So all these things are going on and I think the President, if I have to advise him, is to call everybody together and tell them, look, let us solve this problem first before we get to 2023 because the way we are going, I don't see people even coming out when bandits are pushing you around to come out to go and cast a vote. I don't think it's possible. So we have to, our leaders have to redirect their stand, especially the political leaders, the governors and the parties, because if we don't solve this problem, if we don't fix this, we will not have a country to rule because it's right in our face now. Well, former Air Vice-Machal Fermi Baribor, Dennis McRae, former Deputy DSS Director, thank you very much for speaking with us. We appreciate it. Thank you for having us. All right. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break now and when we return, Benway State Governor Samuel Othman threatens to take legal action against the federal government's grazing routes and reserves policy. We'll get to find out about the legality behind that. Stay with us.