 Hello, and welcome to Data Diversity Talks, a podcast where we discuss with industry leaders and experts how they have built their careers around data. I'm your host, Shannon Kemp, and today we're talking to Mark Horseman, the manager of data governance at Alberta Motor Association. Hello, and welcome. My name is Shannon Kemp, and I'm the Chief Digital Officer here at Data Diversity, and this is my career in data. A Data Diversity Talks podcast dedicated to learning from those who have careers in data management to understand how they got there and to be talking with people who help make those careers a little bit easier. To keep up to date in the latest in data management education, go to dataversity.net forward slash subscribe. And today we are joined by Mark Horseman, the manager of data governance at Alberta Motor Association, and normally this is where a podcast host would read a short bio of the guest. But in this podcast, your bio is what we're here to talk about. Mark, hello and welcome. Hi, it's wonderful to be here. I'm so glad you could join us. You are a huge, we're a huge fan of you here at Data Diversity. You've been a long time friend and engaged in so much that we do. We really appreciate it. So diving in here, so tell us, you know, if you can reiterate what your current job title is, and what is it that you do? Yeah, manager of data governance. So AMA brought me on board. The Alberta Motor Association brought me on board to spearhead a data governance program. And that's something that I've been doing a lot of in the past few years. So I've been working in higher ed before then. So at the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology, I've also did a number of years at the University of Saskatchewan. And I had a brief foray into the private sector at Vesema Networks, where I managed some data for them as well as as well as an applications team. So, yeah, the ebbs and flows of how you work in data is interesting. But currently, my chief responsibility is operating a data governance program, defining what that program is, how it works for the organization. And generally, I drink a lot of coffee and talk to folks, which is largely what this job kind of is for me. A lot of coffee. You can see it in my eyes. Coffee. I can so appreciate that. I've had a bit myself. The feel of it sustains us. Yep. Well, I love that you're starting a data governance program. We'll come back to that. But so tell me, Mark, when you were a little boy, is this what you wanted to be when you grew up? Like, did you dream of being a manager of data governance? No, I don't think when I was a young person, I'm secretly old. You can't see it on my face. But when I was a young person, we didn't have the internet yet. That wasn't a thing. So the amount of data management things that were going on were very limited. And I was sitting there connecting to bulletin board systems with a 2400 BOD modem. So maybe I'm dating myself a little bit there. I actually had a 360 BOD modem at one point as well. Anyway, actually, I wanted a career in the sciences. And so going to university right out of high school, I just took all the sciences and then did the best in computer science. So stayed in that one. And that kind of launched a lot of career things for me. But before I got into university and during university, it actually worked in sales a bit, selling computers to people. And a lot of what we do today is very sales related. We're in the business of selling ideas and selling the way that things can work and selling breaking down silos. There's a lot of sales that we do. And one thing, if you remember anything from listening to me drone on about data management and data governance is read a sales book, any sales book. Just grab a book about sales because we're in the business of selling ideas. Oh, it's great advice. So you majored in computer science. I love it. So where did you go after that? And how did you get from there to to where you are now and into data? Yeah. So while I was in university, I got into an internship program at the university that I was attending. So that was at the University of Saskatchewan. And my first project in the nineties, which is cool, was working on identity management. So that was well before identity management and customer data integration and entity resolution before all those things were cool. U of S was way ahead of the game and and I got to work on it like right away. So that kind of really started my my path into understanding how data plays between all these different enterprise systems and and all the rules and processes and things that kind of happen along the way and working on various student systems and understanding instructors way back in the day. I wrote an article called Doctor Who, like who if your class doesn't have an instructor assigned to it, what does that mean? So there's a lot of interesting things that happen in that world. And then you just I just started that slow, gradual climb into data quality and then from data quality into more master data management and the master data management into data governance and starting to define the processes around managing things. And yeah, and then the rest is is history, as they say. So with with a lot of technical work in the background and then moving away from technical stuff and then graduating into more leadership style positions working in the private sector was fascinating for that. And then being able to hone and repeat by moving into the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology, which is a wonderful organization and and now working with Alberta Motor Association, again, another wonderful organization that's very much supporting data management. These days and and just everybody's been patient and wonderful and and really wants a data governance program in place. And so, yeah, the sales the sales tactics work. Yeah, again, great advice, because, as you know, we have so many people who struggle with, you know, how to get people on board and how to get buy in to their programs more than anything else, more than building the processes around the data. It's it's getting the people to collaborate, right? And in sales, the one thing I learned early is nobody's as excited about what you're excited about as you are. So being able to sell that excitement and being able to share why things are exciting and share why things are important and tie it together to your customer or your executive in this case is what's going to get you some success. So I don't mean it like glibly, like definitely read a sales book. Any sales book will definitely help. I am with you. Is there one in particular that you recommend? No. My library is downstairs and my ability to remember titles right now is limited. So, Michael, what is your definition of data? And how do you work with it? Yeah, so this is one of those things. Everybody says, well, what is data? What's the difference between data and information? Like you get all sorts of different conversations out of this. And again, because you're always looking for buy in and and to share some understanding, data is just stuff. It's stuff. It's just things that are out there. It has no context, generally. It's just stuff. It becomes information when we apply context to it so we can use data to create information and information has meaning and we can use it to make decisions. That's wonderful. But yeah, the data that's out there is just stuff. And how do we work with it? Well, some stuff needs to be managed differently than other stuff. So certain things may have a legislative component to it. So if we are collecting social insurance numbers or social security numbers in the States, we may be required to encrypt in place, for example, or like credit card numbers. So that's a credit card number is a piece of data. It's not attached to anybody, so it's not really information, but it's a number. It's a useful number, so it must be managed appropriately. So yeah, data is stuff. Different stuff requires different methods to manage. It isn't really information that you can use strategically until you provide context. That's great. And we haven't really talked about this in advance, but since you're so ingrained in data governance, what is data governance to you? Because so many people think it's just about adhering to laws. Yeah, and some folks are like, just manage the business glossary, like you get a lot of that as well, which is an important thing to do. Also an important aspect of breaking down silos and having conversations about what stuff actually means, even if you get down to the nitty gritty English language definition of something and spend a whole day describing what a student is, for example. Still an important discussion, but data governance at its core. Bob Siner has a great definition. I think I just glommed on to an older definition that he used that was a little bit punchier, but it's executing the sovereign authority over the management of your data and data related assets, something like that. I might be paraphrasing a bit. I just like the word sovereign authority. It's just a little punchier. But yeah, it's really it covers that gamut of, you know, we care about this stuff, so we're going to manage it like it's an asset. I think it might have been John Ladly. It was some one of one of the super smart people who was talking about, you know, you go to the little boys' room and and you walk up to the urinal and there's a little tag on the urinal with a little number on it. And you're like, oh, we've tagged this urinal as an asset. So somewhere there exists a database or a spreadsheet or something that describes this urinal, shows what maintenance has happened to it, shows everything that's happened to it. So why don't something like that for credit card numbers? And is that urinal necessarily is important to our organization as our data for making strategic decisions about how we operate? Well, maybe for a minute. But yeah, data governance is really about everything involved in managing that data. What are the rules and the rules of engagement for doing these sorts of things? How are we doing it? How are we communicating it? Who's the the owner of those things? How does it percolate through the organization? How do people engage? How do people read and learn all of that stuff? Kind of is either related to or operated on by data governance. Ready to mingle with your fellow data governance practitioners? Join us in Washington, D.C. this December for the data governance and information quality conference. Five days packed full of new knowledge, new friends and new strategies are yours. When you register at djiq 2022 east dot diversity dot net take advantage of our super early bird pricing when you register before October 7th. I I love that. I love the description. Makes a lot of sense. So, Mark, you see the importance of data management and the numbers and the number of jobs working with data increasing or decreasing over the next 10 years and why? What I'm seeing nowadays and just talking to friends out around Alberta right now, because that's where I'm at, but talking with friends out in the wild as well. You're seeing a lot more people with the skills, people who put data governance skills or data management skills on the resumes, you see more of it on LinkedIn, but you see more organizations actually dedicating positions to it as well. It's not always off the side of somebody's desk, although sometimes it still is actually it often still is. But there's a lot more dedication to it. And and what I've seen in the in the past little bit here, both both Nate and AMA dedicated to data governance. So we were able to have data governance teams with team members that are on a data governance team. And that's what we do. So and that's true both at Nate and AMA. So that's exciting. But I'm seeing more and more of that not just in those two organizations, but other organizations as well. So as executive data literacy increases and, you know, CEOs and CIOs and CTOs and all those types read more and more and more research about data management. We're seeing a lot more easier buy in and better support for these sorts of programs and organizational structures. So I see it going nowhere but up. With a robust catalog of courses offered on demand and industry leading live online sessions throughout the year, the Dataversity Training Center is your launchpad for career success. Browse the complete catalog at training.dataversity.net and use code DVTOX for 20 percent off your purchase. And what the C-suite is reading is beneficial, of course, to learning and understanding that it's beneficial, of course, to the company and the right. Exactly. Yeah. And and reducing overall risk to the organization. So you see all these because we're so we're so tangential to security. So if we're worried about data breaches, well, what data is at risk of breach? If we're managing data correctly, then our risk of data breach should go down. If we do have a data breach anyway, then what data was breached? How was the data that was breached managed? Was it encrypted? Like, what is our worry factor here? So all of those things are so hand in hand and work so closely together that that we're getting a bit of a boost from all the security stories these days. Makes a lot of sense. So, Mark, what advice would you give to people looking to get into a career in data management? Be excited about data, be curious, read. There's there's a lot of great reading out there. Where's my library? Again, it's downstairs. But Bob Siner's book on noninvasive data governance is a fantastic read. It's quick and it's just so well put together. John Ladly has written a lot of excellent books on on data management and data governance, blogs, wonderful presentations. I know the folks at First San Fran Partners, they do wonderful content every time that I have the pleasure to read something that Kelly has done, has been amazing. Or presentations at various conferences. There's just so much learning out there. And and this community is so sharing and open and and and generally free. We just want to help each other out. So there's always an opportunity to poke people and and and communicate to go to these conferences, network with folks. Things like DGI Q and EW are great for that, which are both wonderful diversity events. Yeah, like just read, look at blogs. Read some books, talk to folks, get your CDMP. All that good stuff. And it sounds like, you know, you've been advising throughout the whole thing to maybe get a little uncomfortable, read about sales, read about. Yeah, the people aspect of it. Yeah, most of us that end up in data governance were naturally an introverted type personality. The the data nerd in the in the basement brick wall office with moss grown on the wall. I'm literally describing my intern office, by the way. It's a great big asbestos pipe that has since been removed before asbestos was bad. Anyway, so yeah, we generally have that introverted personality type, but we need to be extroverted and excited and engaged about data for everybody to be excited with us and to maintain that buy in and maintain that momentum and maintain an operating data governance program. So being able to communicate and continually sell ideas. You're never done selling ideas to folks. It'll always happen. So yeah, sales book. Be be excited, even if you're introverted. Pretend to be extroverted for as much as you can and and learn how to sell those ideas. I'm certainly seeing you very much engaged in the community at the conferences and overcome that or or or challenge your introvert as you give a lot of talks. It's amazing. And you have even sung for us. That's true. We have proof that's true. Well, Mark, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today and for all our listeners out there. If you like to keep up to date on the latest podcasts and the latest in data management education, go to dataversity.net forward slash subscribe. Until next time, Mark, thank you so much. Thank you and have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you for listening to Dataversity Talks brought to you by Dataversity. Subscribe to our newsletter for podcast updates and information about our free educational articles, blogs and webinars at dataversity.net forward slash subscribe.