 In ku is programs coordinator ICS SP en we are going to be having this brother discussion about what's the space of women in the digital what is the space of women in the digital market in any version and technology, especially in line with the CS theme, where it was about technology and women karebusana. Thank you. We get into talking about the digital space and women and their place in digital era. Please introduce yourself, tell us who you are. Yeah, then you can get screened. Great, thank you for having me here today. My name is Marino Chiang and as you have mentioned, I am the programs coordinator for investing in children and their society. I am a wife and a mother and I also want to take this opportunity to wish all women happy International Women's Day. Happy International Women's Day to you. Great, great. My co-host and I were talking and we were like, we seem to have a girl-chilled day and we have International Women's Day. And now when she mentioned it, that's when I was thinking, oh okay, so what's the difference between the women's day and the girl-chilled day? You know? Yeah, I know. Anyway, let's start this conversation from this point here. Please help us define what does digital mean? Because for me, different people understand digital innovation and technology to mean different things. So will you care to elaborate or probably just explain to us what does it mean to talk about digital innovation and technology? Well, thank you for that question. And I will define this in the simplest way. If you look at the digital space, then we are basically talking about technology. And looking at today's era, we would say that we are in the era of technology. So perhaps that means exploring all forms of digital platforms. We have phones, we have radio, we have television and all that. And so looking at the information era that we are also in currently, that means that a lot of information is shared on social media platforms, through the radios, through the TVs. And information is power. And basically talking about innovation, then things keep changing. And so there is need to then start thinking about what are some of the new ways of doing things. How do we get to think differently? And we say technology keeps on changing. And as I was thinking about this, I remembered when I first got a hold of a phone, it was huge and you were not allowed to hold it. But then you see today things have changed, things have changed. And that tells you how much the world of technology keeps on revolutioning. So we need to then think about how do we adapt to these changes. And then as we adapt to these changes, how much is the space open for the women especially to be allowed to innovate? How much is the level of exposure for the girls who then grow into becoming women? What are the opportunities that are revealed for the women to then be able to explore? Is that space open enough to allow women to explore? Do they have opportunities even in terms of access to resources? Because we could be here and having this conversation that much as the technology penetration could be at 100 or 99% as we speak but that might not be the case because then there are different areas where women might not even have access to basic things like a phone. And so when we're talking about that, what does that mean for the children they are raising? So it's a whole lot and it's a continuum and you just need to look at it holistically and I like what you're saying that you're going all in to just look at how has this space been. And so that means then we need to celebrate the progress that we have made but also there is need to just recognize that there are still gaps that then we need to ensure that we bridge. And so the conversation we're having today is just to look at what have been done in that space and then what still remains undone and what needs to be put in place in terms of resources, in terms of investments and also efforts. You've highlighted something quite important that I'd want to ask you. Do you feel women are given the same standing as men when it comes to the digital space? I know and that's been very controversial. I have been listening to conversations around why we're celebrating women and I haven't heard people say that I think we are over celebrating this because people feel like women have been given enough opportunity and now they feel like it's too much, it's a lot but I don't think that's the case. And I draw this back from the work that we do with the children and we work with schools and looking at also working with parents and how children are raised then that gives us an insight of what really happens in the community and now we know in the competency-based curriculum we're looking at STEM subjects. There is a reason why there is an emphasis to that because if you're looking at opportunities for access to digital platforms and technology then we realize that that has to start from somewhere. You don't get that opportunity when you're already old so that has to be instilled in you at a younger age and when you look at even some of us in our era growing up there is a space that was cut out for women and then you grow up like that and if you don't get exposed enough to be able to change that perspective then you're likely to raise your children in the same manner and so what that means is that then aspects of technology and innovation were mostly left for men because those are STEM subjects aspects of science and technology is not for the women it's supposed to be naturalized we're supposed to be home makers and so what that means for you is that you need to be reserved you need to hold back you don't need to come out and say I am here so the space is not the same to answer your question I still feel like we still have a responsibility in terms of how we socialize our children and that means then our female children how do we teach our girls to embrace some of these subjects how do we then allow them access these spaces and then how do we nurture them how do we support them and it starts from the family but then some of these things we also have to influence them at the policy level because you can do well as a parent but then when the child gets out there how much is the market open for the girls and the women how competitive is it for the women I still feel like women have to do a lot more and even those who make it to those particular spaces we still feel because I know the conversation has been that there are many women but how many is many could we get the percentages so that we are able to then justify that if we say there are many women then how many are they and how does that compare so still I feel like it's skewed and a lot needs to be done in terms of socialization in terms of how we parent our children and also in terms of and I'm glad about the competency based curriculum because then that opens the space already for those who wish to take up as term subjects which then exposes them to aspects of engineering technology and all that and then even at the policy level the market space available is it easy for a digital innovator for example who's a woman to penetrate that space how does that compare to the man perhaps looking at the level of aggression that is needed in that field do we have that and we have seen and we thank the women who've gone before us because they've done a good job to just break the ceiling but then there is need to hold the hands of those who are still coming up and just support them a lot needs to be done for the women you said that and I remembered something I saw on when was it just this week and I saw it on LinkedIn this guy had posted is it a guy or a lady I can't remember particularly but it was a big farm so I don't want to mention so this person mentioned I posted this woman's photo and said here interviewing the CEO the CEO of that company not knowing it was a tech company so not knowing that this is the woman this is the lady who's come up with that idea and birthed it and the CEO now is the one making it an appearance in all the interviews and no one is actually recognizing the fact that the CEO is just a face of the tech of this tech company but this is the woman who made this and I was like how many more women are out there who have done big projects or who have done big things but not because it was especially there is this notion people have when you are behind a keyboard a keyboard and a desktop you are faceless, you are nameless you are identityless or everything less this is that perception what do you think about that it is a sad thing I think for me it's it's the way you told that you need to hold back you need to be reserved you don't need to come out strong because and I know this is very controversial but yeah because it's supposed to be submissive and so then that means that there is just a level that you can go you don't go too much you don't go all in so giving right now there is someone who has bathed the idea so that means they know what it means to drive it and they are able to think through it and they want to take it to an advanced stage but then because you are told to hold back how many are supposed to be reserved you are supposed to sit this way you are not supposed to climb trees and as we continue to grow up and if you look at the way ladies are raised your space continues to shrink as you continue to grow up you remember as a young child you could play with the boys you could do all these things but then as you grow up and get into adolescent stage then your space starts to shrink so there is a way you expect it to behave there is a way you expect it to carry out yourself and that kind of limits your space you start being very conscious about what you are doing you start being conscious about how you behave around people and somehow that interferes your way of thinking you are not becoming open minded you are not supposed to be as outspoken as you should have been and so what that means is as you continue to grow up this is ingrained in your system so that when you have an opportunity feel like I don't think this is something I need to do perhaps let me go around the pattern have someone do it which should not be the case and that is why that is whereas we may have gone to school for those who have the opportunity too and they already have the required skills but still there is an element of holding back because there is still a way the society expects us to behave and sometimes that really has nothing to do with you as an individual because for you you know that yes I can do it you are very confident about yourself but sometimes you have to make a tradeoff between if this is to break even and what is the strategy that I need to use perhaps go through a known path you know to ensure that my idea succeeds so perhaps that woman thoughts were around if this is going to be successful then there has to be a man face fronted and not a woman face because perhaps there is something that comes in the woman face that will just make the business know to do well and those are some of the things that we still need to highlight and continue having that conversation to ensure that we become the authentic us that we are supposed to be how is technology transforming transforming the woman's life and the digital space in very many ways because remember I started by saying that information is power and lack of access to it therefore means that you do not get to know so many things and then looking at now the woman right now we have you know we can talk about I started by talking about even basic funds we know that information is shared right now a lot of trade happens through the funds and even businesses the work space now so perhaps to start by looking at that woman in the village you know a basic fund means a lot in terms of are they able to listen to news you know because some of these basic funds at least they have access to radio so are they able to get information a lot of advertisements now are done on radio on TVs and they could range from different things because when you're looking at the empowerment for women we are talking about health we are talking about education we are talking about economic empowerment we are talking about innovation technology and all that and if I give an example of health which is really very basic sometimes they might not just know how to access health information what is it that they need to do and so that woman who is able to listen to radio health advertisement perhaps vaccination of a child is able to raise their child differently from the one who do not hear any information maybe if there is a medical camp that is happening somewhere and that information is advertised then they are able to hear and they are able to support their children but that's just at the information level and also for themselves as the women they could be a product now we are talking about women enterprise fund that the president highlighted and all that because they belong to the small chamas but how they know that there are bigger opportunities that are able to help them scale up from where they are to move to another level how do they access some of these resources so that's part of very important information that women can access but also we look at funds as gadgets for communication but we also know that they are our banks the applications that we use the MPS are the money aspects that we have so that's part of the economic empowerment they go to the market perhaps they make a sale of the products that they are growing in their farms they are able to deposit that money it's safer there but they are also able to do certain financial transactions and that is important because we have known situations where you come back with hard cash money home and then you're told that you're a person so true so when the women have it in their farms I mean it's safer it's safer for them because then they're able to invest but also basically we're impass buyers not to say in a wrong way the moment you have cash cash money you're likely to perhaps not plan for it very well and part of what we teach our parents is now how to do financial planning how to organize your finances and your resources and how to plan for your margins we sometimes are not able to do because of those gaps that come with cash so having that as a bank is also very important but also how we now engage our children because we know that especially when you look at during covid there was a shift in terms of learning and then there was digital learning and who was supposed to support the children it was the parents because the teachers were not there assignments were sent and that even meant that then we bring in aspect of innovation where we have different types of funds the basic funds and then now the funds were apparently able to access internet so are they even aware of how to utilize that do they know that as well I think it gets a point where it's not just enough to have a basic fund for communication so that really changed a lot in terms of how we view technology because realized that learning could still continue but parents then had a role to play in supporting their children and all that is the role of technology and the role of innovation in how parents are also able to support their children and we talk about parents and because International Women Day I want to be very specific because a lot of times it is the women who are going to spend am I not 100% of the time with the children highly likely because from the time the child is born to the time they go to school we are trying to break that but still if you look at the number of parents meetings if you compare the number of male parents in the female parents you have to layer that a lot of those people who are attending at the female parents because we were having a conversation with the fathers and they were saying then they do the hardware staff and then the women will do the software so the hardware is the pay school fees perhaps and ensure that things are running and the rent is paid but the small things of going to school preparing children and that is the role of the women and well we are not complaining but so what we are saying is then that means that it was the female parents were in the day to day lives of the children and because we are saying that we have been behind if there are resources to be distributed we know that even when phones were introduced for example it was the fathers would have the phone and then slowly then you buy the mom the phone and growing up for us radio in Likwaja Baba Yakuskiza news so true you see very basic things are happening at the household level but have a greater impact so then how does that come into play if perhaps the mother had a basic phone and the father has an internet a phone that could access internet and then is the mother who is at home with a child and then they need to support the child to do the homework are they even trained enough to handle this so children suffered in the long run for those whose parents could not be able to support them and those are some of the things that when we take a deep dive into what has to be done and that's why the technology becomes very important for the women because of their role in the family and in the society thank you now let me get to a catchy subject online gender based violence is one of when we talk about matters digital we can't fail to talk about online gender based violence which has become a form of actually a form of gender based violence so how can information, communication and technology be made safer for women especially in the fight against gender based violence cyberbullying, impersonation doxing all that shaming exactly actually maybe someone is listening and they are like what are they talking about probably start from what is online gender based violence now to what is the safer ways thank you and I think you have done a good job in terms of just giving examples of what that means so online gender based violence is but we talk about gender and there is nothing really in gender about violence and we always stand out and say violence is violence but then when you talk about gender you are going through that particular form of violence just because you are a woman now that we are talking about women not because you deserve it not because there is anything wrong you have done but just because you are a woman and that could take different forms and sometimes it is perpetrated by men and sometimes unfortunately it is even by fellow women and sometimes that becomes a difficult situation to handle so whereas we are seeing that technology is a good thing but we have seen it happening in terms of impansonation false accounts are created and run in your name and by the time you know it a lot of damage has been done and you are not sure if now do I need to counter this where do I even begin you already have a bad name sometimes it is and when you talk about online sexual exploitation for children and even for teenagers and we could also be talking about shaming so the digital space is a good space and we appreciate but then that does not mean that it has been very safe there is a lot of good things that have come out of it but then also we are still able to point out to the bad and the likes that we are mentioning and so I think it is important that the space is made safe for the women the space is made safe for everyone and for me this really takes me back to the social morals the value systems because if it does not sit well with me to perpetrate something for a person I would not take that online you know so what does my values say about what I want to do how does my values inform the actions that I take and that starts with individuals and where do individuals come from individuals come from society and then the society is made up of families so really takes us back to the basic unit of the society and where we have families so how are we raising our children what are the value systems that we are promoting within the family setup because you realize that there are things that you raise knowing that even as an adult they are not departing away from you so keep on thinking this is how I was raised this is how I was told things happen this is who I am so it really does not matter the space where you are exposed to that remains in you and I think that is where the emphasis needs to be put before we even go ahead and talk about policies and talking about systems and online safety and all that so I think we need to work from where things begin and we need to begin from the family what are the value systems that we are currently promoting and then looking at the situation as it is right now do we think that something has gone wrong then what could this be and what then do we need to to do so perhaps is it in the way we are bringing up our children is it in the way the systems around the child because we know that the child exists at home the child exists in school the child exists in the community so how are the systems around the child playing to support this child to promote those values and we always think about how initially children were raised to believe that I belong to the community so you would really know that as long as there is any adult around the responsible adult is that the same situation right now what do we need to do it might be that I'm growing up in a family but that's not all how is the society supporting and because you realize that sometimes you can raise a child and as parents and as mothers with certain values but then the moment they start going to school you'll always realize the come back home and there is something that you realize is very unique that you're not promoting your family and then you start asking yourself so where is this coming from if I don't do my role as a mother and mother B and father B then we're still not succeeding because I can do my best to raise my child in the way that I should but if another parent does not do the same then there is still that influence that happens so for me that is where I want us to do well in terms of looking at the value systems but then when we go to how we expose our children to technology do we just assume that they will learn it is that guided even as children are introduced to aspects of technology because if these children who grow up to become adults and then if the process of growth is not adequately guided then what happens is that then there is improper utilization of that digital space so perhaps just knowing that where are the confines in which I need to utilize the digital platform and then now we go to the policy space as we continue to innovate what are the safety measures that we are putting in in place because there will always be outliers you have done your best you have continued to sensitize you have continued to provide security information but there will always be those people there will always be those opportunities where there will be undesired behavior and so that then calls for disimplementation that as we innovate what are the policies that are guiding as a nation so then that would mean that and I think perhaps talking about sanctions would be good but I always prefer to talk more of prevention than response because response is expensive damage is already done and you cannot take it back and all that so even as we develop our policies we consider policies that are more oriented towards prevention rather than response but then we know where we are at right now we are more responsive than preventive so I think if some of these things that we are talking about value systems are enhanced communities well sensitized and then looking at also the policy level policies are implemented adequately and to focus on prevention then we are likely to have some of these online gender based violence just to know that violence is wrong and it's not supposed to happen to anyone whether you're a woman whether you are a man wow that's quite compact and comprehensive how can women be supported in digitizing their businesses because that's something you mentioned as you were talking about not really about gender based violence but among the very first things you mentioned yes when you mentioned it I picked it up I wanted to ask how can women be supported to digitize their businesses wow there are I think few or there could be more ways in which women can be supported but first I think is the exposure because if you lack the exposure and the awareness that I can utilize digital platform to enhance my business then we are not going to utilize it in the first place so I think we start from knowing that this resource is available for me as a woman to utilize because a lot of times we have only perhaps known that you can engage in small trade because when you are talking about the women who are supposed to be supported I am looking at that woman perhaps in the village who is just trying to make ends meet and what is her level of exposure how much can she access and even looking at the resource base and all that so I think getting them to know that this is important is kim and that information can always be provided by partners because we work in partnership with different government ministries there's a social development department that has a unit on your registering groups and all that and that's what we do because then they're able to come down to the communities provide that information that they need in terms of what is the process how can they register how can they access finances and resources and what are those resources that are available so getting to know that information and then the second step now is the digital training because remember what you are saying is that growing up you are told your place is perhaps in the kitchen this is what you are cut out for this is what you need to do so for that lady who wants to explore that space it is then important that they get the training where do they start how do they utilize it and in the past few years that we've made strides I worked in an impesa after finishing for 4 so when the women came to withdraw money they would hand you over their funds and then you're like just withdraw, you don't have the agenda then they're like so what that means is that they would not know where to access that that application to go and then that exposed them a lot because then you need to get to a place where they need to put in their pin and then you give them their pin and they have to tell you and imagine how many points they have to withdraw money and then they have to keep on telling everyone their pin so a lot of money was stolen from the women and this is their hard earned money because it's from their businesses so that training as basic sounds is very very important especially for the women who are going to use this as their banks and then trainings on other applications perhaps how to make money online depending on the kada so perhaps if it's a village and you just want that to trade and to give their business then perhaps give them that sufficient information for the size of their business and then if you look at perhaps those who want to work online the different applications that they need to use and all that and then now once we have done the training and we know what we need to do then now we can talk about access so how do we access how do we get if I need a computer how do I access it if I need a machine for example if I need to have a studio and to do my recording as part of my talent then how do I do it so for me access is largely discussed comes really after the exposure and the training and then now we increase access and I know a lot has happened in terms of providing funds for the development organizations that are working with the women to provide funds and computers to some of these beneficiaries that we are supporting and that is a way to just help them because perhaps they might not have the resources that are required for the materials but they are just that they need to trade and so providing that kind of access would also be a way to support the women to ensure that they are able to utilize technology but also just the conversation that you are having around safety so how do we then ensure that they are able to use it and use it safely being told time is up but I really want to ask you one least two important questions how would you relate the precedents speech in the theme of this year how would you relate it to Wanjiko the common man you know one who probably does not understand the big terminologies we were using and what happened how would you relate that I think it goes back to where I started when you are talking about access to digital platforms we are talking about women being allowed to innovate I agree with you those sound like very big terms and might not make sense or perhaps in the way they are put we think that's high up there it's just for those who have gone to school and they have degrees and they are living in the cities but if I bring it down to really the common mananjim I think it starts from how we raising the children what are the small opportunities that are available to my level as a common mananjim and going back to what is it that I need to have for my level so perhaps if it is information that I need then what kind of platforms perhaps I need to have access to to be able to get that information but also to the commoner for me that meant that now we need to start thinking about how we starting to have more open conversations around digital innovation and technology so that it doesn't remain in the confines of tech people because a lot of times when you hear about technology then you think it's really a very complicated issue so how do we simplify for me it means then simplifying some of this information to the level where anyone is able to to understand so perhaps breaking this down to the different levels would be very key for me and so when you're talking about perhaps the enterprise fund when you're talking about digital marketing when you're talking about online banking what that means for us is if you're talking about online banking then what are the forms of online banking access and what are the basic perhaps documents or requirements that you need to have to access so that it doesn't look like it's up there and just simplifying some of these processes so that then we all in taking it a day at a time last question painters an image of where you see woman or woman in the digital space five years to come first I am glad and for the Kenyan woman it was a good thing that because you're asking five years and we just had a new president coming in and it was very good to see him take leadership in that and that meant therefore that there is good political will for the woman to explore and even excel in the space of technology and remember like I say I see it now something already into the system because when I started to talk about the competency based curriculum that now emphasizing on focusing on either STEM subject or social subject so again it will be a way of also encouraging that within the education system and so when we have political goodwill and then the systems and the structures are also supporting then I see more women coming up and belonging to that space I see more innovation because then there's no one who's going to sit back and say hey I think I need to hold back so a lot of people coming up and being able to put it out there what they have you know innovation is about trying if it fails fine not holding back because you fear failure but that will provide an opportunity to try things out and I believe also in terms of investment of resources because when we have political goodwill innovation requires a lot of resources you know to be invested you need to be able to test and see what what is able to succeed so I believe that will be an opportunity to also have resources invested in innovation and that will mean then we are able to move this country to the next level courtesy of the women wow what else would you want to wrap up with your parting shots my parting shot is that even as we have this conversation for me it will be that the women who have gone up there there is need to encourage mentorship and very deliberate mentorship so that if we identify a resource a talent then let us hold the hands of those who are coming up if you have conversation with those who are starting then you will hear them saying it's difficult to be a partner because penetrating the market is very difficult but there are people who have made it you know up there so why don't we be very deliberate to hold the hands so my call is for the women who have gone before us to just continue holding the hands some have done a very good job and that we appreciate but there is need to hold the hands of those who coming up you know to ensure that we have more women encourage mentorship and just supporting them to the level that they are also very stable so that will be my number one call but of course my number two call which is what I do and what I love doing is let's focus on the family let's ensure that at the family level things happen right because if we are able to lay the correct foundations at the family level we are able to establish a working a sound value system at the family level that means a better society and equal society so that when you are talking about access you are talking about equity you know where we don't look at you are giving the same resources like I am but you are looking at what are some of the limiting factors that could limit you and how do we help you to come up so that we make the ground level so yeah those will be my patin shot for now thank you thank you so much for coming this is this was a wholesome conversation you know we have not even exhausted half everything there is to talk about um digital information technology for gender equality but I feel like we have dug quite a bit and we are we are at a good standing thank you for making time so on the side what are two things you can't leave the house without okay apparently because of the conversation you are having I can't leave the house without my phone and my laptop I will be stuck I mean I won't be able to do anything wow you are thinking laptop would be able to stick in my but I don't know what else but anyway thank you so much for making time it means a lot thank you for the insight you've given us about digital information and technology for gender equality thank you thank you so much for having me and I wish all the women out there have international women's day and have a blast that was Marino Chiang programs coordinator ICS SP we have been having a wholesome conversation on digging it all that is digital invasion and technology for gender equality happy international women's day to all the women out there don't touch that dial valve is coming back