 Hi everybody, oh that's louder than I thought it would be. Welcome to coding for a course, welcome to the library track, isn't this an awesome room? How many of you guys were here last year for this room? Maybe that's the reason you came back just so you could sit here. But yeah, I just love this place, it's a bit of a privilege. We were just saying before we started, we feel like the need to live up to this weight of knowledge that's around us. We'll do our best. So welcome to our talk which is called Coding for a Cause. My name is Chris Parsons and this is my friend and compadre Steve Took. And we're going to be doing a little bit of a kind of two in for a few today. We had an opportunity about a year ago or so to work on a really interesting project, which was quite unlike any project we've done before. Not in terms of the technology, but in terms of the setup and the context. And we'd love to talk a little bit about that. So this is the way it's going to go. I'm going to kick off by kind of setting the scene and telling you a little bit about the kind of background. And then Steve's going to talk you through. Steve was one of the principal developers on the project and he's going to talk you through how that went and challenges and lessons learned. And then I'm going to kind of wrap things up. So to move on. So Comic Relief, how many people watched Comic Relief this year? Three. How many people have watched Comic Relief in the past? Okay, lots of people. So when we think of charity work, when we think of charitable giving maybe, a lot of different kind of images and thoughts come to our minds. Sometimes we think, oh, taxable expense to be honest. Sometimes it's like, you know, maybe I should put that through my business rather than through my personal money because it's, you know, I can save tax. So, you know, but generally speaking, when you watch these kind of big events, big shows, what's going on is that there's kind of, it's almost like mass produced charity. So you have these big shows that are put on to encourage people to watch them so that they can see what's going on maybe in a really difficult environment in a long way across the world. And then you watch all these images and you're encouraged to give your money, give a donation. And then what happens is they collect all the money together and it's like, hey, we've raised 100 million pounds or whatever it is. And then they spend this money on large scale making a big difference. And that is absolutely great. I'm not here to knock any of that. And I think that that's a really effective way of helping people who really need help. But it's not the whole story about how we can actually give something to people who really need help. So I suppose what I want to do is maybe reveal a little bit about a slightly different kind of story as to how maybe we can get involved. Sometimes it feels a little bit difficult, doesn't it? When we watch things on TV, it's behind this big glass TV screen and it almost feels like it's really difficult to reach out to. But actually in the last few years specifically there's become really interesting new ways to be able to help charities specifically maybe a very long way away that has come to light. And I want to talk a little bit about that. So guys, some questions for you. What is the main thing that charities, that people who work in relief situations and disaster zones, what do they need? Water. Okay, so what do the charities need to be able to give those guys? That's probably a better way of phrasing the question. Money, that's a very important first one. Something else. People, yep. Sorry. Infrastructure, very good. Information, excellent. So I'm going to kind of wrap a lot of that up into logistics. Charities need, they need cash, but they also need an ability to get the cash from your bank accounts to a blanket wrapped around someone after an earthquake, right? That's what they need. Now this kind of stuff, the logistics of running a charity costs a fortune. I don't know if you guys know this. But how much do you think that a typical charity might spend on administration and basically not spend on the actual programme work? Any ideas at all? 20%. 30%. So there's an organisation in the US called the Better Business Bureau and they have like guidelines for charities. They try, they're credit charities and they say that as a minimum you should be spending 65% of your money actually on the charitable work which means that a whopping 35% of your money could potentially be going on just paying people salaries and you know kind of paying for flights and getting stuff over there and shipping stuff. Which is insane I think. That's a huge amount of money. And I think for bigger charities like for example I looked up the American Red Cross and they are proud to say that they spend 9% of their money on logistics. But that's still millions of pounds, that's a lot of money. And as a big charity you have the ability to apply scale to this which is great so you can hire a whole ship rather than just a few containers to get stuff out there. But for smaller charities people who are working in specific zones with specific people with specific needs, that's a real struggle. I mean I remember talking to one charity who said that for every 15 pound donation in the last year they worked out that they'd spent 12 of that on costs and only three pounds had actually gone to the cause that they were all there for. So for a smaller charity who doesn't really have access to this scale it can be a real struggle. Now what drives logistics, what drives all of this kind of stuff is data. Is that not coming up? Oh yeah, there we go. Oh yeah, it's on that screen and I'm doing the other one. So Steve's being my lovely assistant at the moment. But yeah, the data that we have, so this is some made up CSV data but you know what I mean, it's like where are the people who need help? What do they need? How can we organize that data? How can we make sure the trucks are going to the right places? All of that kind of stuff is really important to charities. Analyzing, managing their data actually saves lives. If you know where the people are who need help and you can get help to them more quickly then that's a real bonus and obviously in some situations that can be very time critical. So how do we ordinarily manage data? Well you kind of see where I'm going with this. We manage it through software, right? We are able to, and us in this room, most of us are able to actually write software to manipulate and manage that data. So that's where we come in. We have the skills here in this room that are able to manage and manipulate data which helps charities reach people more successfully. So a brilliant example of this is the Google People Finder. How many of you guys have heard of the Google People Finder? For those of you who haven't, I'll explain it. What they did is they threw up a really simple app really quickly and basically used the Google Marketing Machine to get it out there which is, you know, they have two boxes. I know about someone in Japan, I've found someone in Japan who needs to find their family or I'm looking for someone. And literally they would just put people together. The system would try and work out who would connect people so that they could find people who were missing. So that's awesome. And so when they threw up really quickly. But it doesn't have to be on the scale of Google. We are able to maybe help some of these smaller charities who usually really struggle with logistics and data management to actually have really good systems that enable them to do their jobs so much better. Now for me, that's much more worthwhile than as worthwhile as it is to give 25 pounds or 50 pounds to Comet Relief. It's very worthwhile to me to be able to use my skills as a software developer to actually help a charity and use my time. You know, both are important, but that is something that I think is untapped amongst us and I think we can hopefully be inspired to get involved and start helping people. So why is this kind of now? You know, often the problem I think is that, yeah, sure, great, we have these skills. How on earth do we go about applying them and finding people who can help? So why is this message timely? A few things have changed in the last 20 years or so. Back say in the 80s, how did you get software to a charity? Well, you got a container and you shipped a bunch of CDs to them every three months, right? That's the only way to do it. You know, these days it's completely different, right? You know, we have the internet, we have the web, most of us here are web developers. We are able to put our software on the internet and have it immediately download. You know, that's a huge win so that we can access, you know, we can help people with information over quite a big difference. So that was about 20 years ago and about maybe 10 years ago it got a bit better. I hate this term, but you know what I mean, right? It's the whole kind of applications on the internet thing. You know, we were able to put more interactive stuff on the net so to enable people to manage data, not just read it. And you know, it was, it got a lot better and a lot easier when about 10 years ago and more recently Skype has come along. You know, not necessarily Skype. There are many other, not particularly endorsing Skype but this is what we used. But there are many other ways of doing this but the ability to have a real-time video conversation with someone halfway across the world for free is very recent if you think about it. We kind of, as tech guys, we kind of take it for granted but that is awesome if you think about that as a power of communication and sharing. So now it hasn't been, we've had that for about five years perhaps in the UK but really only in the last two or three years has the infrastructure in some of these kind of, especially disaster relief zones and places in developing countries, the infrastructure has kind of caught up so that we are able now to have Skype conversations with people out there. So that's awesome. So this leads us to be able to develop our software in an agile way because if we are able to have real-time video communications and we're able to chip software instantly if you think about it, it's like we're just in the next room almost. It's not that we're two continents away. We should in theory be able to respond to feedback and start developing software for these guys and be able to kind of make a difference to what they're doing and progressively improve what we're doing. So I guess what I'm saying is that a few things have come together in the last, maybe a few years, which have kind of changed the way that we can help people in far-flung places who really need help. In the past we've really only been able to give our money and that's great. Now we're in a position where without flying miles and miles we're actually able to give our time and our energy and our resources. So like Dave was saying this morning in the keynote, we have almost like these capabilities that we have. They're like needs too. And if we can spend our capabilities doing something that's really worthwhile, then that's awesome to me. So this is exciting and this is something that really has only come about quite recently. And now it sounds absolutely great in theory, right? But when you actually try it, it's really hard. It has some issues. So we were lucky enough to get into, I just want to say, that's what I just said before, but we want to get into a project that we were working with where we actually, you know, fresh off the kind of, you know, the realisation that we could do this and specifically hearing a talk a couple years back about similar things, we thought, yeah, let's get involved. And we came across this project with this charity and we just want to share about how that went. So I'm going to hand over to Steve to talk us through that. So hi, I'm Steve. CFI, Children's Future International is a charity based in Cambodia. They focus on helping marginalised and vulnerable children. Very few Cambodian children, less than half, actually complete primary school, let alone secondary school. Their teachers are underpaid and under-experienced. So CFI have a range of programmes to help children back into education. They give catch-up lessons, they give support to further education, additional education as well as the public education. They have support programmes for food, transport and shelter. CFI came to us because they needed a student record system. They wanted a tool which would help them manage their programmes on the ground in Cambodia. The only records they were keeping were the paper questionnaires, which the social workers used when they visited the students. The data was completely unstructured and they had no way to analyse it or make any use of it. They couldn't pull out any relationships or find what was happening at all. So we took the project on and we really wanted to run the project in the same way we ran any other project. Weekly iterations, over communication, user stories, all the other agile things that most of us are used to. This project wasn't really like anything we'd done before. Getting a really good level of communication was one of the biggest challenges. Cambodia is several thousand miles away, six or seven hours ahead of UK time. We've worked with clients from abroad before and we've used Skype a lot. As Chris said, Skype really helps bring things close together. Fortunately, their internet connection was a huge problem. At the start of the project, they didn't have any internet at the centre where they worked, they had mobile devices, but they could only manage a Skype call once a week. Things started getting really confused. We were really struggling to understand what they wanted the system to do. So we decided to take the lead and we just looked at the smallest thing we thought we could do which would give them something. We just built them a really simple tool for keeping track of the students. It was basically just a collection of text fields that they filled in the data from the questionnaires in, but what it meant was they didn't just have parts of paper anymore. They had data on a system which they could use and giving them that thing which even though it was far from perfect, it gave them something to grab hold of. It gave them something tangible that they could use to figure out what they needed to improve it. They could see they needed full-text search, they could see they needed a way to have relationships between students, to see who were the parents, who were the sisters, the brothers, who was actually taking care of that child day to day. A lot of the parents were migratory workers, so they would follow the seasons around working in the fields and in the farming industries and they'd leave the children with other people. And it was really important to know who was looking after these children and what situation they were in. As we built the system and they started using it, they started seeing that they wanted to be able to keep notes on the children, show which courses they were on, which programs they were providing and actually using the thing gave them something to hold onto and they were able to push forward the direction of the system. We did struggle to keep momentum on the project. We had other projects running. We were difficult to keep a regular staff on the project. It was a lot harder than we anticipated from the start to keep going. So we brought down the size of the features and we had a really useful thing at Eden at the time was that we had people come in and pair with us for a day. There's a couple of guys sat in the room now who came. And we would use CFI at that point for them to come in and work with us. We had a lot of people coming in because it was running in an Eden way. It was a Rails project, Cucumber Scenarios, aspect examples, Hamelsass, JBoss... JBoss? JQuery. We didn't do very much JBoss. Yeah. Flashbacks. All of our usual biases. Whatever experience our visitors had, they could come in and provide value to charity in Cambodia in a day. They would do something which would get used to help children in the Far East. It was great and with the small features and adding value every week it worked really well. And because of this we decided that we wanted to push it out to contributors outside of Eden. It was open source from the start but what we really wanted was to keep momentum going and push it forward. So Chris took it on and we really went out looking for open source contributions. One thing I did want to say quickly is New Bamboo and Eden had a hack day and that was the kind of first time that we'd really worked on CFI outside and I think, Martin, were you working on it as well that day? Wasn't you was it? But a number of guys from New Bamboo came and worked on that project with us and that was great fun actually and a lot was done that day and it was really satisfying to really push it forward. We did some kind of wireframes and it was fun. So that was kind of the first time that we really pushed it outside of Eden but actually this kind of drive to kind of get more people involved is true so I basically took on the maintenance role of this project as an open source project kept the features really small so that they could be done because I think in some way that an open source developer really only wants something that they could spend 45 minutes doing there's this kind of metric where if you can get something of value in 45 minutes when you're doing an open source project that's kind of apparently there's a statistic that shows that's the average amount of time block an open source developer has to spend on something so keeping those features tiny meant that someone could add value really easily which meant the barrier to entry on working on the project was really low so in some ways this was no different to any open source project but the difference was that why we were doing it it was like whatever was committed we basically had a github issues tracker which is what we used it was still using and we have tags for you can help with this thing people would comment, people would do pull requests and push them the only difference was is that when they were pushed I would stick them up on a staging server and check them out with the charity and then they would go and use them straight away and a number of committers who I don't know at all who have come in and I've talked about this project on my blog and a couple of times it's just various user groups and it's getting a bit of momentum it could do with some more guys to work on it but it's a very satisfying thing to put something out there that people can help with so that kind of sounds great and woman fuzzy and all that and we had fun and that kind of thing but I kind of wanted to to kind of focus on how we can apply this you guys listen to this and it's all very well but how can you get involved in this kind of exciting new way of helping charities well the first thing you can do is help out on CFI if you'd like this is where the github repository is at the moment there's a number of issues and a number of features you can literally just pick up a feature and start working on it and push it if you'd like to obviously no pressure but it's a really exciting project and you can hear a lot more about it if you kind of go there and look at some of the things that are going on the other thing that I'd really encourage you guys to do is to connect with other people so we have there's a number of people on the internet who are thinking about these kinds of ideas of being able to help from far away maybe to be able to connect into really local situations and charities rather than kind of going through the big charity route so a couple of those guys are these guys on Twitter Milena Chan has until recently been travelling around she's I think from Australia originally and she's travelling around quite a lot of countries in Southeast Asia she has been trying to help them with our IT infrastructure and actually the way that I'll tell you the story how we found out about CFI because they're not really active in the UK they actually have American donors who give money to Cambodia but the reason we found this out was through Pat Allen who's Pat on Twitter there he was he gave a really good talk at Rails Underground in London in who was there actually did anyone hear Pat's talk yeah cool so that really inspired me you know he was talking about how we can use our skills to make a difference and he was talking about how he'd spent time in Cambodia and showed us some pictures and we were quite inspired by that so I remember having a beer with him at London Rebuser Group about he was there for a few weeks and I just went up to him and introduced myself and said I was really inspired by what you said and we got chatting and I just said to him if you ever come across a project that could do with some help just ping me and we'll talk and I didn't hear anything from him for months and then suddenly I got this email saying hey I know this girl Melina who's in touch with this charity they really could do with some data management so really it was as simple as that he introduced us, we set up a Skype call and we talked about the problem and we decided to get involved so the best way of getting involved is really to connect with people like this you know hit both of us up on Twitter we'll put you in touch and we can start talking about ways that we can get involved it's kind of nascent and there's no structure as such but there is a conversation so get involved and join in yeah there are lots and lots of opportunities that keep coming up and the other key thing that we learnt was that I said at the beginning how Skype communication is like now possible as Steve said it's possible but it's still quite difficult and so therefore what we found was that the two things that really helped us with that were starting with something so simple that we could build really quickly that just did one thing and we had no clue about what type the different SQL columns should be so we just made them all strings because we really didn't know anything about this project it was really hard to talk it through so we started with something so simple and actually communicated through the delivery of that application rather than trying to talk about it because that just wasn't working so what we thought was we'll build something we'll ship it and then they can tell us how they want it to be different from that trying to explain what they wanted and the other problem that came up was that they didn't really know what we could do either they needed as much education about what us guys do as we needed about what they do and sometimes you forget that people don't necessarily understand your job and it's important to explain that there was a time when we felt like we weren't delivering very much because we were struggling to get people on the project regularly but we were doing a little bit every week and they were so happy to get what little was improving every week that it didn't matter to them that we weren't hitting the pace we wanted to hit but they were happy to be their lot was improving every week and it's really important to remember to make us with a small start you can make a big difference yeah definitely and because we were doing this for free there was a kind of issue there they were really happy with everything we did we were pleased and thankful but we always felt a little bit behind the curve but actually we had to kind of take a step back and think okay we're doing something it doesn't feel very much but we're doing something so starting small and actually keeping the increments tiny really small pieces of work those things if they can just add a photo of one of the children onto the site then that makes a huge difference then because it can be hard to remember lots of names and photos of families that's a really easy way for their social workers to connect with particular children and to be able to remember them and that kind of thing and to be able to store all those together in one place was a huge win for them so we have a lot of access to tools and software here to do all sorts of different things but they really didn't so anything we delivered was a win for them they were winning every possible talk so yeah start small and really guys you can make a difference be encouraged there is so much that we can do as developers to help people and the great thing is is that the borders of our range of influences expanding almost every week with the ability to communicate and network with the whole world really and it's getting better and easier and easier so you guys really can make a difference to projects so yeah be encouraged so that's our bit have you guys got any questions or comments or thoughts or anything like that and then maybe we'll show you what we built okay yeah we're gonna show it go ahead how much is the internet connection and bandwidth and the platform that they're browsing your application on is that an issue so they started off not having an internet connection at the centre but they did all have internet connections where they lived and they had various mobile devices which gave them some internet access but once we actually launched the system in they'd managed to get enough bandwidth at the centre that they could use the system we hosted it on Heroku and it's running on one or two dinos I think one dino and it's more than enough for them and it's going really well and so the bandwidth works for the platform it's also worth saying that there are no images in the actually it's not very pretty but there are no we didn't use fancy kind of heavy footprint pages and things like that so it would be quick to load both on or slow internet but also you have to remember that the machines there are much slower and the monitors are much smaller and you kind of have to think back about 5-10 years and then you've probably got the spec of a machine that they're using so it's quite important to keep the apps really simple we found that do you think there's a scope for some kind of directory of these kind of open source applications so it seems really great that you can make a contribution to this one charity but it seems like a lot of charities will have the same issues in many cases and kind of building software for every charity seems slightly wasteful I don't know I mean that's a really good point I actually involved with another charity who works in Africa and he runs in Uganda AIDS Orphans because there's a huge AIDS problem in Uganda and what they're trying to do is basically get those orphans adopted into families which is a really good thing and their needs for the application are almost exactly the same as CFI's needs so the plan the master plan at some point is to try and basically de-brand CFI and turn it into an engine that we can then basically white label for different charities because there's an awful lot of charities that have donors and have recipients often people and they need to keep track of in a local community or communities and they want to be able to publish, ultimately publish updates back to the donors from wherever the country is so there's a really fairly generic model there in there somewhere that we're going to try and set free at some point so yeah really good point and I think it's not quite a directory but I think that there is definitely scope to take what's there fork it which has actually happened and start building it out for another charity as well and try and maintain it so that my job would then be to try and keep the code fairly keep the changes coming back into the main app so everyone benefits just one more point is there maybe a way that you can as well as just kind of exporting your skills directly actually get developers in those countries involved so that's a really good idea I hadn't thought of that I actually think one of the contributors on since we went open source with the open source model is actually from Cambodia I think that's the case but I think that would be great and I'd like to plug Pat's talk again which is from the keyboard to the community Pat went out to Cambodia and was working in Cambodia with a different charity and I think if anyone wants to going back to Dave's talk this morning if anyone wanted to do a journey in some way like Cory had done doing this in time in a developing country helping local developers work in these things that would be a great use of your skills that's obviously more investment than actually doing it from here but I think that would be really good it would be great to get I think there's a group called Geeks Without Borders Pat mentions it in his talk but it'd be really if you're interested in doing that sort of thing get in touch with those guys and British overseas there's various groups that you could probably find that would help you do that and I think that would be a really useful thing to do I'll post a link to Pat's talk on twitter with scott ruby tush tag after this yeah we need them like sorry there's no video sorry what was that about okay hi yeah I hope it's not too cheeky for me to mention another project that's quite similar so it's called Rapid FTR okay and the idea behind it is that after a disaster hits an area like an earthquake or a civil war or something to help reunite children with their parents awesome so how it works is that we've developed a blackberry client for taking pictures of children as often you know there might be two or three people that and that's fed into a website so that the sort of people in unicef who are working on it can sort of coordinate finding out where their family are that's awesome so that's called Rapid FTR and if anybody is in London every Monday night at the top works office it's like called jam with pizza and stuff like that awesome, cool so can you post a link to some more info it's scott ruby hashtag and maybe people can get it from there, awesome, thank you any other questions or thoughts or other projects with a cynical commercial head on how has your charitable work impacted on the stuff you charge money for has it benefited it or has it compromised it in any way well Eden actually shut down two weeks ago which is why we're not really mentioning it much I think it was difficult to find the time to work on it it was for free when we originally decided to do it which was back in probably a very early part of the year in 2010 we had people on the bench and we were happy to spend the time doing that unfortunately we got really busy between the time that we decided to do it and actually starting work because it took a while to get it together and that was a real struggle to be honest and quite a hard time for the developers who were tasked with working on it if I'm honest it was very hard for us to say no you haven't got time and it was very hard for them to say you haven't had much done on it this week I'm really sorry but we kind of got through that we worked through that but yet it was unfortunately we wanted to treat it as a first-class project at the time we hadn't quite got enough reserve to be able to treat it as like a completely first-class project unfortunately but the intention was there but unfortunately we probably should have just said we're going to do this when we've got time rather than trying to treat it as a first-class project because really we didn't really have the capacity to do that so that was probably the mistake there in practice we didn't let it have an impact on the business at the time and actually the company, the shut two weeks ago but that was for different reasons that wasn't any way a direct causal link but yeah it was a more of a prioritization struggle for me particularly and Todd who was the guy doing operations for us at the time that was quite hard Do you want to say anything on that? I think what we learned from that experience was that for a start even though we didn't have the capacity to run it as a first-class project we couldn't get the communication levels up to make that viable anyway so you can actually provide more benefit doing lots of people doing small things than one group taking on the whole thing managing it from a central place but having lots of people work on it really is the way to do these things well I think that's the lesson we learned from that So the model that we ended up going to which is more sort of an open source contributions model has been a much better fit and she got just as much done than we ever did when we tried to run it as a first-class project Well I've got the microphone off I'll ask you another question Did the fact you were doing working on that project helping the charity did that have a positive impact on your commercial clients did it make you look good? We didn't talk about it until quite recently until it went open source we deliberately did not want to make money off doing charitable work it was something that we as a group of people really wanted to do for ourselves so we deliberately made a decision not to talk about it So I'd say the big benefit as a business to us doing it was we did have this project that enabled us to invite people from the community to come in and work with us We had an open come and pair with Eden for a day policy Despo came in and worked with us a couple of times and having this project was a really great thing for them to work on at the time It wasn't necessarily a commercial benefit but as a community benefit for us as well as not just helping Cambodia but a Ruby local community benefit that was great Yeah and I think we also it was our first Rails 3 project at the time so there were things that we learned from things we benefited from having it but we didn't directly there was no direct benefit I'm going to very quickly take you through the app there's not much to see actually because it's pretty simple but I'd love you to kind of see it and then we'll close there but thanks very much This is going to be quite hard to see I've been told to make this as big as possible but live demo maybe we should have just taken screenshots Yeah let's give this a go So this is the staging site I'm not going to show you the live site because it's got pictures of vulnerable kids on it and I don't think that's appropriate but I'll show you how it works so this is very data free but obviously the data on there is confidential so I can't actually show you it in action I can't show you it at all actually What I could do is look onto my I'll do the data hotspot thing The white flag Turn it off Okay We'll try that Okay we've got access here I don't have my pass so I'll do So that's going to work Hopefully we'll be able to get you saying it Have you got a local question? No I do but it's not set up Live demos Please work It was working earlier which is unfortunate Could you get my phone and we can try Chris? Yeah So what happens in Campodio when the internet goes down Is there any replication or backup or offline access? So right now there isn't I think it would be great to either come up with maybe offline use the H5 for offline or some sort of replication give them a local version there are a few options we could do on a certain stage in the development but if anyone has some experience of doing that it would be a great way to help out the project It doesn't look very good because I've got it on tape but basically we have a list of people Oh sorry Just on the rapid FDR thing The reason we're using BlackBerry is because mobile networks are much more reliable and also after a disaster they can set them up really quickly usually if the NGO is going to talk about things That would be a great way to take the project So we have a list of people these are the text fields that we've got Charlie who may or may not be a student we've got his information here so we've got public information caretakers comments we can add comments It's quite good running it through a hotspot This is through my iPhone so this is pretty much the experience that they would have So you've got school courses with time schedules, teachers who are on those courses We can run villages We have households Households are groups of people who are together not necessarily related but they may be We also keep comments on households but only social workers can see them so there's permissions behind this too As I say this looks much better with data but obviously I don't really want to show you the data So yeah One thing that I would love to do for this is actually put an example of its use and try and get a demo website up so people can see how it's being used without actually seeing the data that's not something I've done yet but I think it would be a really good thing so you can see how it can impact people So that's it, so thanks very much for listening guys and be inspired to go out and do similar So thank you