 That's where we're like busy checking in or I mean, very informally. Cool. Jane, where have you guys escaped to? Uh, yeah, in laws. We kind of made an excuse to go see the in-laws, Ari's parents in, uh, in Chicago, which was a very intense, uh, four day journey. Uh, and kind of putting, you know, putting all of the grief and questioning of what does it mean to have, have to lose half of your valley, basically, um, kind of to the side. And now it's, it's catching up with me again. So there's, there's some very big questions about just taking this moment. There's some very big questions about what are the implications? If you, you know, the town next to you burns and yours doesn't. So I live in Ashland, um, the two towns next to you. And what, what does support look like? And of course there's the immediate support, but then there's the long term support. And so there's a lot of, you know, food drives, clothing drives, things like that for the immediate and a lot of attention that's going there, thankfully, but, but, you know, some of my questions are, what does this mean in the, in the bigger picture? And do we just rebuild exactly as it was? And what happens to the people that don't can't actually move back there? So some really big questions that I think are appropriate to bring to the group. Yeah. Thank you. And Pete posted a really interesting thread about, um, fuels and climate change and all that and fires. Did you see that one? Uh, I literally landed, uh, after 2000 mile drive this week already, 2,200 miles last night, um, but I did get a chance to see the, um, the group on, uh, the conversation on new beginnings and new endings, which I'm very intrigued by. So that's about as far as I've gotten. Cool. Thank you. Thank you. Glad you guys are okay. And totally get the weight of the, um, of the issues you're talking about. It's crazy. Um, as chickens go, how about, uh, Judy Charles Doug, Judy, since you have your mic open, um, I don't have a lot to add this week. I'm just continuing to work on how we interface with public schools in terms of delivery of art curricula. Thank you. Um, Charles, you just muted, which means you might have walked away. There we go. I'm here. Um, yeah, I was going to organize more or better, but, um, yeah, of all the things, I think that that's most, um, present and alive with Kiko lab in particular is business modeling is kind of heavy lifting of, um, figuring out, um, fields and canvases and also kind of being, being or getting ready for funding of different kinds such as, uh, grants and, um, support through nonprofit, um, type channels. So between, between those things and trying to find, um, bridge between those approaches and how we can streamline our efforts, but also just kind of, um, articulate more what are our goals and, and, uh, how are we going to go about that? Yeah. Thanks, Charles. Does that also include like, um, whether or not to incorporate or become some kind of an entity? Well, we are, or I have a nonprofit entity, a 501c3 that, um, is available for, uh, however, and whatever, um, we want and need. So that's there in the mix. And tonight we're meeting with a friend of mine who's, uh, quite successful fundraiser nonprofit consultant. Um, but we also spoke at length with paid here and, um, Max Harper and a few other, others, friends of ours in the, in the circles, um, who're giving us some wonderful inputs and tough love as to, um, homework that we have and things like that. Yeah. Learn of clapping. Um, cool. Yeah, that's, that's pretty good. It's, it's a sort of end of, uh, summer weather and enjoying some meet, meetings, uh, but out by the lake and kind of combining things, getting a bit more social, but tentatively, um, yeah, check. Cool. Thank you. Uh, Doug Hank Mark. Okay. Other than dealing with the aftermath of the fires, which means, uh, residual smoke and mostly coping with people who are saying they're now going to leave California, uh, trying to figure out the implications of that because some of them have pretty interesting positions in hierarchies here, uh, which leads to what the, the big thing for the week has been trying to start conversations in a fairly stable organization, which means an organization that has top down, uh, commands and sideways cooperation, but no conversation about what the organization is about. So how do you get a conversation going in such a place? We have broken out a core group that's committed to doing conversations, but the reach out to people who say, Oh, I'm just too busy. Uh, it's really important what you're doing, but I can't do it now, uh, so I'm struggling with that. That's, it's actually kind of fun, but it's also, uh, dealing with the nature of hierarchies. Yeah. It feels to me like if you say something controversial enough or important enough in your subgroup, they'll show up. Meaning like imagine the building has, has been torn down and we start redesigning it or something where they realize they must be involved as opposed to, Hey, we're about to have a conversation about the future. But not, and I don't know where you were on it, but, but I think that a small group that actually is lights, lights, a big fire will, will attract attention somehow. Will it not? Well, in this case, we've actually done pretty big questions like that and it will still, they're afraid to bite into those questions because it means they're going to have to do something different. Yeah. And who wants to do that except people like us, right? Right. Well, we seem to have a small crew, a small band of, of Mary, uh, revolutionaries going. So yeah. Well, anybody else with good ideas, we can chime in at the end of the, of the check-in. Uh, Hank, Mark, Scott. Yeah. So, um, I mean, as far as check-ins go, I think I got a couple of things that finally feel like I'm kind of, um, settled in the, or moved in, but not completely settled into this new spot in Boston. In week three, um, which is, which is great. It's, um, kind of nice to be in a more vibrant city, um, though I did love Providence a lot. Um, I think last week, maybe I made a comment that, you know, I kind of realized that I was like mentally kicking a lot of things down the road during my move, um, and it's been kind of funny, like I've been journaling again and just a couple, I've been thinking about, I think a lot more things that, that feel a little like more OGM me. I think that's the, and I'll dip into them for a minute. I think, you know, the first thing is I've been really thinking a lot about just the concept of incentives, um, specifically as they relate to organizations and just our lives and how our general society is constructed. Um, obviously that's a super broad statement. Um, I've been thinking a lot more specifically than that, but, um, just in interest of keeping this check in short, I'll just say that's kind of what I've been thinking of. And, you know, um, it just, it, it gives, I think it opens up a lot of lenses to think through the general statements that I think people make. It's like, what are you really asking yourself and others to do, um, and have you really thought about it that way, right? Um, not that it changes any of the rhetoric, but sometimes it can just add a little bit more seasoning to it, perhaps. Um, I think also just kind of given the backdrop of, you know, the election coming up and everything going on the West Coast. Um, I've really, I've been trying to take more think time to think about, um, you know, just the, the general conversation going around, um, and why people are scared specifically, you know, people on the, the right, um, uh, side of things. I obviously don't mean right as incorrect. I just mean right as in, you know, more, more right leaning. Um, and it's really something I think just given my background, just being from you know, the, the, the Bible belt region of the country, uh, that I've really tried to kind of dig into, um, and from more of a place of understanding, um, I, and as far as the, you know, the fires and things, I just, I listened to an interesting talk recently that I'm still working to pull apart. Um, and the, but the overall message was basically just like, you know, climate change is real, climate change is man made, but we have time to fix it. Um, and I think that like that message against the backdrop of like record breaking fires is, it's kind of hard to, hard to sit side by side and like, and rectify, right? And so I'm just trying to kind of put some mental calories against that. So, um, that's my check in. I passed the torch. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. And that, that's, uh, sorry, bad pun, bad, that's a hot topic. Um, and, and in particular, Trump was in California, was addressed directly as we need to stop ignoring the stuff and dismiss it immediately. So that's like right front top dead center. It's crazy times. Um, thanks Hank. We'll come back to that. Uh, Scott, Mark, Lauren. Everyone, um, things are good up here. We're in Michigan and we're starting to see the smoke, which is stunning that we are that far away. And, um, in just the tiniest bit being uh, affected by it and, and, and with you in this, um, two thoughts for this morning. Um, the first is I've mentioned before that my interest is in taking some of these ideas and distilling them for children, for children to help create the next generation of thinkers. I kind of evolved that a little bit. And I realized during the week that if we're spending all our time trying to solve the problems and we end up being, you know, unsuccessful in that now we have spent that time and not also develop the next generation who's going to pick up the torch. Um, and also, you know, the reality is the problems have no end state that we have the problem and then we have the next one and the next one. And so I think that there's a parallel path there and then we try to solve problems when we also develop the people who will solve the next problems. Um, so that's, that's a thought. And the second thing is I also was looking at some, shall we say, presidential speeches this week. And an essay came up in my history. Uh, it's called on bullshit and it's actually a wonderful little treatise on the fact that, that BS is intended to persuade without regard for the truth. And the liar cares about the truth and attempts to hide it. The bullshitter doesn't care about the truth, whether it's true or false, they just care whether the listener is persuaded. So say, say something false and and it's false and they just move on. If it doesn't have any effect, they move on to the next thing until eventually the persuasion happens. So I'll include a link in the chat about, oh, we already have it of that, that essay. So I think it's, you might disregard it because based on the title, but actually once you read this short piece, it's just, it's, it's wonderfully insightful. So good morning, everyone. That all seems like a magnet to me. Thanks, Scott. Good morning. Um, Mark, uh, which we were going, um, let's go, Mark, Lauren, Julian. Morning. Um, a quick follow up on something Hank said, because I think it's sort of outproposed a larger conversation. The, um, you know, the climate messaging that Hank referred to, there's a, there's an enormous literature out there. There's all sides of, all sorts of insight into how to communicate climate change. Um, and the necessity of, of different audiences and speaking to specific audiences and using the right messenger, you know, we generally do none of any of that. So all we really do is come out with a message that is sort of tries to appeal to everyone. And so it's always, we're all going to die unless we very easily fix it tomorrow. And, and it, it's just, it just doesn't work as a message. Uh, and, but, but that's sort of where most of our climate communications are, because we think we have to sound the alarm and we have to be helpful. And yet we know from a communication science perspective, that's not the right way to do it. Um, but on, on, on a larger scale, being here in Portland stuck in the house now again, um, the, you know, I'm thinking about tipping points because we've been talking for years about when might we see a tipping point in, for example, coastal real estate values. And, you know, I think I mean, there are already people investing money in the collapse of real estate markets on the coast of Florida, uh, because they think that time is coming very soon. And with five Atlantic storms, that time might be here. Uh, the, the implications for Oregon, California and other states, just from a fire insurance perspective, uh, in terms of the aftermath of these fires are going to be mind boggling, you know, with so much of the building that's happened in the urban wildland interface, so much of that is going to become either uninsurable or with insurance rates that the people owning those homes are not going to be able to afford. And what does that do for the whole dynamic of how Oregon and California have been developing? Um, this week had the unfortunate effect of having many conversations turned to sort of post-doom scenarios. And I think some people in the room were, were in some of those conversations and, uh, it's, uh, sobering, clarifying, uh, in a weird way, bitter, sweetly positive, because you started thinking, oh, okay, let's assume that, that the brakes were off that we can't, sorry, uh, Kevin, I'm meant to leave your hand up. Um, you know, how does this play out? Um, so let's actually, uh, go with, uh, the check-ins for a second and do, uh, Julian, then Kevin. So, on a, uh, different topic, having been unable to leave the house for the last week, I'm focused on this computer graphics data, uh, knowledge base I've described before. This is one about the past and future history of computer graphics, uh, it's being done in, in with the ACM. Uh, for the last week, I've been focusing on the ingest problem, which is not just a matter of transferring data from one database to another, but also looking at what does it mean, what does it, what do you mean when you say information in 10 years from now? Because technology, such as virtual reality change, what it is that you're doing in order to create knowledge. And whenever you create knowledge, it needs to be integrated into the knowledge base. So I've been focusing on how do we capture, uh, data that's outside the realm of what IT can handle. And not only that, make the system extensible enough so that data we don't know that's going to exist in 10 years can likewise be collected and integrated along the way. I'm starting to look at the difference between property graphs and RDF graphs, because this will be an essential technology decision. Um, so of and, uh, let's see, and the interest of being practical this weekend, I'm going to try sucking data from the art history database into the trial database, uh, and just to see what happens. So I'm trying to keep a very practical bent on the things I'm doing. And, uh, when the air clears up, then we get to go and do it on the patio instead of here on the living room. I'm looking forward to that. Um, cool. And now I'm, I'm forgetting my order. So, uh, Kevin, Rob, Max. Okay. Really quickly. Mark's remark about shorting the coast, reminding me of talking to a big hedge fund manager about five years ago, and he was that something like his mother's 95th birthday, and it was a big, you know, intergenerational family thing. And he was watching his eight year old daughter dive in the pool while he was telling me that he was going to short the long bond, which meant he was going to make a big bet that the U.S. was less valuable in 20 years. And I said, well, that's undercutting the future of your eight year old that you that you love and are diving into the pool. He goes, yeah, but I can't not make this trade. And, and he was, he was stuck in his own world. And so anyway, the other thing is that I'm born in this cohort of people doing what I'm doing, kind of these democratized local financial instruments and things. And I've got about five people that I, some I've known for a decade. And the other one, I just put a link to one group that reached out in near Chicago. And I think it's going to be kind of interesting. There are a bunch of things that can de-financialize the economies that are starting to work, that we're trying to network each other. So anyway, that's it. Thanks, Kevin. I'm looking forward to those things actually working. Rob, Max, Lauren. Yeah. Hey, good morning, everyone. I joined in a little bit late to have juggling many things today. I brought my daughter to her orthodontist appointment. And it just, it was a contrast of like a very normal daily thing that goes on versus just the craziness going on in the world. So I was feeling some gratitude that I have the opportunity to bring my daughter to the orthodontist. But also just trying to, I guess for me this week, I've been trying to get more in touch with my core thoughts of what I think is true and trying to slow down the barrage of information that that just keeps coming at us. So I guess a little more personal reflection about some of these, you know, the social unrest in the country, the election, the our place in the world, our place as world citizens, just trying to spend more time on what do I make of all of that versus looking outside for, for, for, you know, readings or input on that. So it's been good. And I've been using obsidian to kind of organize a lot of thoughts that I've had and that's been been working well to just kind of give a little structure to my to my writing. So all good. Thanks, Rob. Thank you, Rob. Max, Lauren Klaus. Hey, I'm going to need to skip my verbal update. My wife is leading a conference call. So you can do it in interpretive dance or something. Works perfectly. Thanks, Max. Feel free to put something in the chat as well, if you want to just let us know what you're up to. Lauren Klaus, Pete. Oh, hey, everyone. I have just been thinking about several things are kind of swirling around, first of all, Matt's idea of kind of getting together and talking about business plans and stuff like that and how he's been kind of, you know, pouring together some pitches and stuff and how I think that we could really it might be nice to all get together and do some kind of strategy for a soft pitch, including maybe some influential people that we have connections to. For example, like I don't like a New York Times op-ed writer that we can say, for example, there is something like Jerry had this post about Trump and his strategy is kind of like projection strategy, but there's no word for that. Like, could we think up a word for that and get together and kind of use these sessions? We have all these groups going on and meeting at different times can kind of link them together, tie them together and actually like come up with a concept and then get it to a point where it becomes a thing that's written about and it'd be like can we birth a concept that actually is in the news and, you know, gather steam? I think that could be super easy and would be great at that and wouldn't even have to do anything or put money in or we can just kind of do that at the regular times that we meet. I think it'd be super simple then we can do kind of like a little documentary on how we achieved that. Super simple and that way we can feel like we're kind of making an impact and show how we do that, what kind of process we use. So it's just an idea. I think it might be fun, relevant, impactful and get us to do something. Just a tiny thought along those lines. I borrow the hand signs from Occupy, which borrows them from sign language and from the Puerto Del Sol protest in Spain, they have some history. But my hope, my hack is because I do these all the time everywhere. My hope is that sometime in a presidential press conference we'll see people doing this, which means that that the thing propagated enough to show up in a place where it mattered and where it might really cascade out and do things. So I think maybe hacking means or whatever to do that with important messages could really work. But I think I would include gesture like free hugs. Is this really interesting mean that just propagated people can walk out and say, hey, free hugs. So or tunes or other kinds of things, right? So how might that work? I think it's a great goal. Did you want to add something, Lauren? You're muted. I just think that it would be nice to have some kind of strategy group to kick that off, to see what connections we might have. And how we could use those and kind of like set the strategic direction of the hive. And Jerry, I think you'd actually be really good at that, being a dot connector and really well connected as well. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Let's let's focus that one. Klaus, Pete, Matt and me. Yeah. Talking about climate change, messaging, we had a team meeting yesterday with business climate leaders, which is an initiative by citizen climate lobby. And they are organized by sectors. So I'm sector leader, agriculture, but they have a sector leader, food and beverage and electrical systems and health care and education and so on. And we we talked about how do you convey, for example, to farmers, which are our primary target group now, a conversation about climate change, which they are like radically opposed to talking about. I mean, they're completely rejecting a conversation because to the farmer, a conversation about climate change is government interference into their business, not expecting regulations and so on. And they just categorically reject that. And so the the core learning of our group over and I've been with them now for several years is that you have to bring the topic into their particular environment. So for a farmer, for example, the loss of topsoil, the fires burning right now in California, the flooding that they are experiencing on soil that is depleted and washes out. I mean, those are all very practical topics. So we're in the process of starting a national campaign, which in fact, I'm working on right now to to bring these conversations segment specific to the food and agriculture industry. So you're talking to an organic farmer with a different message than you would talk to a commodity farmer, for example. You would talk to the supply chain differently depending on what they're specialized in. So the point is that the message has to be differentiated and poured into the life experience of your audience So interestingly, the Sierra Club is starting what they call the Thrive Act, which is now winding its way through Congress. They already have over a hundred members of Congress who signed on to it. A recognition that we are we are moving into a really bad time because is the PPP money expires in October? You have when you go online and you just look at layoff clients for companies. It's stunning because basically the airline industry is running at around 30 percent of last year's capacity. When you look at hotels, convention centers, car rental companies, restaurants, you know, everyone engaged in tourism in whatever form and shape. They are now coming to the realization that this virus isn't going anywhere. So we have to anticipate a drastic reduction in employment on a permanent basis in October. And so how do you deal with that? There's no plan in motion that would say what are we what are we doing with millions of permanently unemployed people which will stay unemployed for months at least. So the Thrive Act is. The initiative is meant to assist people in sinking through their options. What do you do if you have a job that is just gone? Boeing is about to lay off 30,000 people because they're closing down an entire plant. So there is there is a lot of messaging out there. And the challenge really is to bring that messaging into the personal life, into the relevant context of population groups of groups of people. The scale was the magnitude of the problems at hand is just staggering. I mean, and the idea that we can't have those conversations is kind of crazy. So in the quick spirit of that, why haven't we framed this as like Pascal's wager? And so Pascal basically said might as well might as well believe in God, because if you're wrong, you go to hell. And if you're right, you're good. Right, which has a whole bunch of cynical implications. So I take Pascal's wage lightly. But but for anybody who's a climate change denier and its effects on all the different industries and everything else that we're talking about, like, why not take the bet? Because if if they're wrong about making these calls, we're really screwed. And if they're right, there's a whole bunch of business, a bunch of other stuff. So that's one thing I'm wondering. And then the second is I made a visit to singing frog farms a couple of years ago with Dave Whitzel and his wife, Claudia. And the thing that really hit one of the many great things that hit me was this one regenerative farm had neighbors that were beginning to respect them after many years, but were all industrial farmers. And they had made enemies of the local John Deere representative and the person who sells fertilizer and pesticides. And those were important people in town who now hated them because they weren't buying the pesticides. They didn't need a John Deere tractor. They needed a little fork you put into the earth and then pulled toward you like man sized fork that helps you just loosen the soil a little bit. And so there was this and never mind the church they went to. So there's a tremendous social resistance to doing this because all of your friends are going to hate you. And how do you tip? How do you tip that is super interesting to me? And I'll add a third story, which is Molly Melchings efforts to reverse female general mutilation in Africa. She would go to the Imams in villages and talk to them about how the Koran does not include FGM. There's no like, hey, hey, fellas, this ritual isn't in the Koran, which is the book that includes everything and talk them out of in some. And I don't know the details of it, but talk them out of this really pretty brutal procedure, which was culturally deeply, deeply ingrained. It's insane how deeply that is ingrained. So sorry, back to you, Klaus, but it's just a couple of the interesting thing coming out now is that we have to think in systems. So Citizen Climate Lobby created a bill that is called the Open, the Coran Climate Solutions Act, and it was designed, it is designed to help farmers compensate, be compensated for the loss in yields and the cost of shifting into regenerative organic processes. What they haven't thought through is if the farmer does these changes, that means they have to change out their crop types. They have to change out their seeds. They have to change out their crop rotations and the entire food supply chain is not prepared to deal with that. They're simply unable to process this kind of disruption in their supply chain. They have to fundamentally reconfigure themselves. At the same time, the restaurant industry will have to adapt their menus and their entire and the public will have to start eating differently. So when you think about in systems context, then you have to engage the entire system and alert everyone to what is coming their way. Thanks, Hans. Pete, Matt, and me. I've got three things I want to talk real quickly about. One of them just updates, not talk, I guess, not converse. The thing on the top of my mind, Rob said earlier, the barrage of information coming towards us. And I've been thinking through how I might kind of contribute to that barrage of information, but hopefully in a better way. So I see a lot of stuff and I think I can do a decent job of curation. And now how can I give that curated barrage to people to help improve their lives? So that's one of the things I'm puzzling through right now. Probably most of you know about my experiments with real-time transcription and where I'm at with that is looking for kind of product models and product models and business models, I guess, that that might make that go forward. So then lastly, I there's yesterday kind of, I don't know, it kind of I saw I saw a couple of things on Twitter that made me think of something a little bit differently. So one of them was Andrea Chalupa and Sarah Kinzer, the gasoline nation nation people. I'll I'll post the tweets in the chat here. But she said Andrea said, you know, so the what's going on here? I guess we have this interesting thing where we think the system of government in the US, Britain is kind of the same. But in the US, we think they're trying to do one thing and they're doing it really badly. But what if they're actually doing a different thing than we think and they're doing it really well. So so Andrew Chalupa says there's money to be made breaking up the US and selling it for parts just like they did in the Soviet Union. So maybe that's what's going on. And the other the other one that kind of was in that same line was Jay Rosen saying the White House press secretary, who we all think is trying to, you know, we think her job is is trying to communicate, you know, policy effectively. What he said is no, dude, she's her job is to start fights with reporters to generate clips that, you know, speak well to Trump's base. You know, so if you think of her job in that way, which my wife said, but that's not what we're paying her for. But if you think of her job in that way, she's doing a great job. So that's my things. I really agree with that. And in the videos I did about Trump, I'll put a link here in a second. I basically said a whole bunch of people hired Trump to shatter to shatter the country to shatter the system because the system wasn't working for them. And I kind of applied the jobs to be done framework, which very much resonates with the language you just used. So and then if you look at his actions and those around his actions from that lens through that lens, you start to see, oh, wow, like they score really well. Right. And you know, if the dismantling of government and the retraction of regulations off of the burden on everybody's back, if that's a goal, he's getting an A, you know. And if you're in his base, you're not going to kind of move from that because it so happens that it's really fun to do this too, because you don't have the license, you don't have to limit what you get to say, you can open and carry and make a statement, a whole bunch of stuff sort of plays out from there. So I really agree with that. I wish I had more time to listen to Gaslet Nation because they are great. Matt, then, then Kevin for what you wanted to add. Go ahead, Matt. Yeah, this has been a very busy thinking week for me. And so there's thousands of different dendrites kind of coming off of a lot of different things. And one of the galvanized moments was actually this article that I'm going to post here from the Atlantic, which really does an amazing job of outlining kind of what happened post post civil war and the reconstructionist movement and how immediately following this time there were crimes against humanity being committed in this country against black people to the point where when when the American population started to see what was going on, the sheer brutality, they there was there was a lot of a lot of energy that was put around that. Andrew Jackson, who they were equating to sort of behaving like Trump is behaving today, was, you know, was replaced by Granton and there was a lot of a lot of energy around this. The net of it, though, is everything went under everything went underground, if you will. Right. So while we outlawed these public and, you know, visual forms of brutality, we allowed them to be institutionalized. And it was actually they talk about in there there was a reference and it wasn't really explicit, but this the birth of the small government aspect of the Republican Party came out of, you know, the Republicans at that time were the ones that were, you know, fighting for and demanding sort of these this equality. Right. But they went to small government because it was too difficult to deal with everything. And so they said, like, push it off to the states. And it's sort of interesting how there's been this series of movement forward or decisions that were made to avoid the really difficult truths. And I got me thinking about narratives and sense making and the process of sense making in a lot of cases. The way that it's done today for most people is that we're connecting our personal narratives to the meta narratives that we choose to believe in. And I'm wondering about sense making. I'm also wondering is that really the core of what we're trying to do? Or is it sense breaking? Right. Is it really about a destruction of those meta narratives that that have become institutionalized in in our lives? Right. Meta narratives about really the core of American meta narrative of everyone can be successful if they work hard enough. And if they're smart enough and sort of the this meritocracy view which is actually a false isn't a lot of ways of false promise. And it's been a false promise throughout human history. Right. And so I was wondering about that. I was wondering about stories and their power to actually construct a mental model about the way that the world works and that those powerful stories actually are the things that hold us back. And so rewriting stories and breaking down those meta narratives and where we're living right now and sort of the upheaval is maybe the idea here is not for us to plan for how do we deal with the conditions of today, but how do we design ourselves for the next reconstruction is period so we don't get it wrong the way that our forebearers did. And because I think that maybe where we're going to be is we have to allow the breakdown to happen and then begin to capture the energy that comes on the back end of that. It's a new place for me because I am a desperate optimist but to sort of accept that creative destruction requires things to burn and it's painful and it's horrible and it's sad but how do we pick up the pieces maybe the better question then can we prevent the system from dissolving on itself and maybe the only way that system changes through catharsis. So that's what's been on my mind. I'm having a little sense of group mind here because I think that resonates really sharply with what hit me this week and some of the things that we've raised earlier in the conversation. Let's go to Kevin then to me and then back to Jay for a bit. On changing the name it's kind of interesting we were working a couple years ago with CNA which is a 12 million dollar clothing company that's not in the U.S. and they were the sponsor of our regenerative conference but they couldn't use the word regenerative because it actually took sustainability seriously and they needed to show a five year return on sustainability which they had caused them to change the nature of their supply chain and that H&M was also there and Target were also there but they were leading and they said we agree this is better but we've changed our accounting and trying to get to this former thing so they could not afford to go with what they knew was better because they needed to show that the first thing actually worked so changing the name if you took the other one seriously they couldn't do it so anyway that's kind of interesting. Thanks a lot of sense Kevin thank you I wanted to quickly put a couple things in the conversation as well one is that my day yesterday was partly hijacked by this really good article by Thomas Edsall who was an essayist in the New York Times who always points to a lot of sociological and psychological research in his articles and so he did in there and I and that took me to really interesting places and I also just put a link to my videos but let me just do a quick screen share for that spot because one of the questions here's the article and here are some things that got said these are actually people he's quoting in the article here's the essays and studies that he's pointing to but I had already started a thought called Trump and his supporters were paving the way for a coup by accusing the left of a coup which was kind of sparked by the HHS aid Michael Caputo who basically says the left is plotting a giant coup and I'm like holy shit and he's now had to get out of the way but I had evidence of this before so there's a bunch of other things that I collected up there but then I created this thought will there be violence across America catalyzed by the election day and in the spirit of argumentation and debate and I had a really interesting conversation yesterday with a woman Jamie Joyce who does argumentation is working with Bentley and a bunch of other people a couple of thoughts opposite each other so yes left is preparing a coup which is an argument and then opposite it yes Biden any close victory Trump is preparing a coup nearly identical thoughts replacing the players in the sentence and then underneath these I put evidence don't worry Trump is just joking a Biden win is going to lead us to socialism communism and catastrophe and if I have in fact destroyed property and killed several people and then opposite I put my oppositions I'm like you know what Democrats have not impeded transitions to power to Republicans when SCOTUS stopped the recounts of Florida Gore peacefully conceded the election to Bush Hillary conceded the election the moment the moment Trump's electoral votes added up Obama gracefully handed the government to Trump trying to be helpful etc etc so it's like you know and in fact Trump has actively threatened Trump has systematically sown the ground for a coup he systematically supported racists and fascists and demonized their opponents the far right is arming up when I started populating the arguments in favor of this side of it my eyebrows were just like rising and rising anyway I'll send a link into this note here which is sort of the top of the question which is under another interesting thought and Jerry I mean two things that just to kind of come back to one is I why shouldn't we recognize that we're trying to start a coup I mean is this is this not the gathering on zoom that was happening in you know the the pubs and the bars and the beginning of you know of the birth of this country where people were saying wait a second things are not right here and we need to change so I think accepting now methods and how coups happen maybe part of it the other thing that I totally forgot to say and I need to say which is one comment really bothered me on discourse which was this idea of why are we struggling as a group to attract diversity to ourselves and whether it's women whether it's black people other minorities I think that that's something we need to take very seriously and I heard today that the idea of you have diversity you have inclusion you have equity and then you have justice right and we're always spending time on diversity which is just do we have representation you know by the numbers and then you go well inclusion is when people are represented are their voices heard equity is can those can those people and individuals who are diverse can they actually get into the room and what are the barriers to getting into the room and we have systemic barriers in this group to getting in the room and I thought that comment by Nancy about the fact that the pressure on women today to not only work but to take care of the home to do these things which are very historical you know gender based institutions are very difficult to overcome and I think we have to reconcile with that if we're going to be open minded to open minded sense making versus the kind of the making sense within our own construct so I needed to put that out there sorry I have a feeling that will spark some discussion after we're done checking in I appreciate that and and also I just wanted to point out the window this has been our situation for the last week I think the Bay area is clearing up but we are expecting rain today but we haven't seen it yet so we're still we're still in the crappiest air quality out there it is not actually going that well for us and then a small separate thought I wanted to put out which is I'm trying to figure out how to do what I apparently have an obsession and passion for which is like this braining and live braining sort of thing for a living so I'm trying to figure out what to call myself and we can come back to that but I was I was toying yesterday with getting something like the usual thinker.com which is available and heading into that territory so that actually seems in the context of the things we're talking about like a less important thing and then Tony just joined us Tony if you want to check in not going on with me today I have nothing to say thank you much for asking alright thanks nice to see you here and Matt I think your question is really important so I want to head back there too Jay there you are you want to jump back in yeah thank you so a couple of things I think they just keep drawing me back in this group first of all I want to just come back to a moment that I had on a call with Matt actually that really kind of struck a new era for me was Matt was if it's okay that I share this Matt was in the children's hospital on our call that we were having his daughter was having some health stuff and I believe that she's doing okay I'm just bringing this up because we were talking to Matt and he was in the children's hospital with a mask on on our call and this is just like the you know I think this is there's kind of a new normal in terms of you know now we're just we just drove 2,000 miles away and now we're on the call you know villages burning deal with coups deal with health issues economic issues and get on our calls and be entrepreneurs and be social change artists and you know this is everything at once so there's an art of kind of I think vibrant compartmentalization where it's both a presence I'm trying to come up with a term for this I'm like life in parallel everything at once whatever you call it it's kind of grief but we have to have space for that grief for that transformation I realize personally that I just shoved it away because I couldn't deal with it and now we're like sleeping on the deck here at my in-laws house in our tent and you know on our calls because I still have to launch things so I want to just identify that little nugget and Matt forgive me if that was hope that was okay but the the key to this is it is everything at once so we have to operate in that way in a healthy way and number two it's kind of like the innermost cave and insight at the same time so we're like in the cave but also needing to be at that kind of moment of insight or also sometimes in that moment of insight in the same day in parallel so it's like all of these worlds that we're working with I want to do a little anecdote and then get to my kind of other main point which is JR Ewing we know JR Ewing was I think in this age group and demographic right so Larry Hagman was walking down the street in I believe it was Sofia, Romania in the late 90s and people kept on coming up to him and saying JR Ewing and thank you so much for saving Romania and again and again they would do this and he was like very very curious about what they were talking about what turns out that Shevchevsky left he cut out all external media but he left the state programming and Dallas and the reason he left Dallas was because you can imagine because he wanted to show how terrible the West was and so what happened was actually the opposite he wanted to show how terrible the West was but people were looked at their lives and they looked at their lives standing in line for hours and hours for food and waiting in line for 10 years to get a car and living these cement structures and they looked at Dallas and they saw the sexy women and the big cars and the money to burn and they said why am I living this life why am I not living that life and basically as the story goes it led to revolution it led to Shevchevsky's demise and so that story has always struck me Dallas was the biggest show ever in human civilization but it struck me because it's a version of showing a different reality that can truly be transformative and I've thought a lot about this what's the modern version of Dallas and it's not showing the crappy reality of the evil the skeptics and the jealousy and all that although to have good story you have to have all those components so my question is and this is I want to come back to this group because I'm in kind of parallel conversations in the Rogue Valley about how do we build dome villages for people that have been outplaced and how do we create something that actually steps us towards the future because we've been driving across the country and seeing all these businesses closed and it's just totally heartbreaking and I get why people are suffering and I get why people are afraid and I get why they're wanting somebody to solve it for them even if they don't want to solve it because they want hope and so my the opportunity I'll just kind of state this as an opportunity for the group is to leverage a kind of interdimensional story story that shows up in all of these different places and ways but that's backed with true foundational systems that I think this group is uniquely poised to do so it's like in part very live real narrative that shows a world in parallel that works it might be at the same time a design project that's creating those components in a collaborative way of what it might look like and building test systems to do so so it's kind of like a reality experiment so that's my statement for today that was great exactly and I'd love to know what other people think about what you just said please jump in I mean I think this is where a new Manhattan project can actually be quite interesting right and there's a lot of conversation and dialogue but maybe the reality is we just have to start we have to find land and territory and start designing and building and living the right way and maybe by living the right way Max Jay we Max's name is right underneath your picture so but maybe this is the way that we actually can model what it is and create new pattern language and new operating systems that just work better and invite people to join them I don't know is it is that the path there's a long historic movement toward utopian communities it goes way way back forever in the US there's lots of amusing stories of utopian communities there's many efforts to do this I love the idea and I just posted about Cory Doctorow's book walk away which for me was a piece of that where the theme is it's a dystopian future the world is broken there are normals who live in cities and then there are people who walked away into formally uninhabitable places but because we have magical 3D printers and because there's this ubiquitous cloud where all of our design plans are stored you can kind of create life anywhere you want to and then what happens between the normals and the walkaways but the walkaways have a whole bunch of utopian things about how they live how they make decisions, what goes on there and then every time they have to walk away from one of their settlements they fix what wasn't working from the last one so there's kind of this notion that they improve the structure and they're forced to walk away so loss becomes a little bit of gain in some sense and they have to be resilient because the interactions are very nasty other comments on Jay's comment sorry Doug I saw your hand up go ahead well going out into the land and redesigning how things are done is unfortunately a land that's already owned by somebody else and they're going to resist that like mad and we're in a position where all the things that are good imply somebody loses and we're going to have to cope with that I don't know how to do it but it's like we're going to have to go through a speed bump with a lot of cost to it to get to the place where we can do things that are really beneficial totally agree I posted earlier a link to global warming real estate.com which I'm just remembering I posted on a chat I don't know if anybody saw that or heard me talk about it before but in a fit of peak after a conversation like this a decade ago maybe longer I bought the domain and put up a website which I've now reconstituted and the idea was if you don't believe in the science of climate change maybe you see a business opportunity and so you know tongue in cheek it's like real estate that's uphill from sea shores I invented H2O motors because forget jet skis and sea dues we're going to need the SUVs of the modern urban seawash city etc and then I put another link here which does not exist on the web but I bought the domain raftify.com I think after the same conference because I was starting to realize we might have to raft ourselves together on the seas three quarters of the earth's surface is ocean how might we learn to live comfortably on the oceans and don't go to the sea setting institute for news on this that's actually sort of a trying to create a libertarian utopian on cruise ships but I interviewed a guy who was doing open ocean sailing as an open source project kind of like the project that was posted earlier in our chat about creating the machines for civilization that Machig no forgetting the name of the guy who's doing that one but you know how if territory on land is hard to find maybe we make territory on the oceans or something I don't know I think that there are small groups trying many of these things do you know Jerry that walk away tagline or at least this version of it is it's time to take the country back from radical leftists in the book you mean no in on the the website walk away campaign dot com so I don't know if it's been co-opted I don't know where it's this it's definitely these you know rallies against the radical left we can no longer tolerate the destruction of property and lives the vilification of law enforcement the weaponization of tragedies are silent it's it's like almost like a it looks like a Q non website I mean very interesting very interesting and the language is also the this is the other part about the language it's also the language about America for all Americans and but it's I'm baffled by just the bullshit going back to that comment so two thoughts here and one about the thing you said earlier on coups which is you know isn't the left trying to plot a coup and I think coup me to coup to me usually I mean there's bloodless coups right but coups usually mean like weapons and you take over the airport and all that and I don't know that the left is trying to do that at all and the left may be completely naive about this because if the right is planning one and the left is on arm this is not going to end really well and then separately I create a book that was really really interesting for me and I hope for others I asked the question is there a better word for when you accuse your opponents of doing what you are doing and we the closest we sort of came was gaslighting in Darvo and I don't know if anybody served Darvo but deny the abuse then attack the victim for attempting to make them accountable for their offenses there by reversing victim and offender basically but this is usually in an abusive situation or abusive partner situation so it doesn't really have a context as political strategy which is I think was going on I'll put a link to this node in our chat right now you know I keep thinking how we could deal with this at the cultural and religious level how do we how could we have Christianity without the baggage and overhead why can't we just have a movement to treat each other well you know take the person that you know who's in the worst trouble and do something about it that kind of culture feels to me like it just cries out to be what we do but there's no move in that direction yet I saw a quote posted just yesterday I've forgotten who the quote the speaker was but things are never so bad you can't do a kindness for somebody yeah I saw that too wonderful on might have been Wendell Berry or somebody Wendell Berry yeah I agree and I had in one of my wanderings a couple years ago I was thinking about rules for living life and the Ten Commandments I have a whole riff on the Ten Commandments how the Bible and Ten Commandments are not good rules for working a life and the one that I landed on that I really love is from Thich Nhat Hanh which is deep listening and loving speech and I prefer that to the golden rule because doing good, doing what's good for other people is really easily misinterpreted apparently because the golden rule exists in every major religious tradition but I really liked deep listening and loving speech and if we could slow down enough to do that we might get somewhere but things were accelerating other thoughts on this because I think we're having a realistic conversation about the current situation. Klaus, go ahead it looks like you're remaining in the talk I find the there's so much confusion about what people are railing against so most of it is focused on the political process when in all reality the change is driven by corporate interests and I see that in the food business so much you have global companies that have established a supply chain that has its own logic and what is happening with climate change and with environmental destruction and so on it turns out that system is toxic to our world and it has to change it has to reform itself but they can't figure out how to adapt their business models and stay and survive this decentralization that is required so the attempts to change the entire conflict is focused on the political system where the political system really is just a pawn because it is completely controlled so we can achieve more if we want to have a revolution I think growing a revolution really hinges on our personal individual behavior multiplied by millions so if we change our if we adapt for example our diets our shopping behavior and our consumption behavior we can create massive changes we can force change as consumers and our system is aligned to avoid that from happening so I mean for example when I worked with Disney still we had ABC and there was a chef a British chef who highlighted who created the the term what was it called again he explained how hamburger meat had what was it slime slime or something like this it cost it cost the closing of three factories and Disney got sued for 100 million dollars so the idea of commercial speech is embedded in our legal system and it actually prohibits free speech now commercial speech supersedes the first amendment and most people don't realize that so you can't advertise for example and say things that are harmful to a company or to a brand and so on without getting sued so to have a communication process that engages large numbers of motivated people and give them direction on how they can impact the system it is a real challenge one of the things that struck me when Trump won was that not only did Trump win the presidency but he had a majority of both houses and three quarters of the state legislators were Republican etc etc etc like this was a thorough beating right through all levels of US government that had taken 30 years to get to I think this was a very slow methodical plan I'm happy to talk more about that my beliefs on that and we haven't had and the left doesn't have a similar sort of thing and didn't have a similar sort of thing with corporations I don't know of movement for young people to go in and take jobs at corporations and work their way into leadership who think better about these things I know of some companies that are doing better things but I don't know of an operation to just change the brains of the major corporations by entering them Judy well I don't know I'm still just thinking about not so much trying to start at the macro level of change but how to catalyze individuals who frame certain topics and frame a circle of people and digest that topic and then each person in the circle goes to enter it and I think that's more reasonable for us to undertake than taking on big business big military whatever the large institutions are that need to change and I'm not saying they don't need to be addressed but unless you get action going in lots of different places to pull less vision I don't see how you can make changes in big systems the password will help Doug I think you're one of your lines is not muted he just left the room okay so we won't hear any more from him I and I can actually mute him from here perfect so other thoughts on this because my own instinct on this is we need to work all levels at once and that somehow even though the left has been obsessed with convincing people that there's better ways of creating large scale organization government would have you it has done a poor job of the social process of doing that and I very much agree my favorite change tool in the world is when a person you trust takes you by the hand to try something new that's my favorite change process because most of us won't try something new all by ourselves it's like a little scary we're too busy or whatever but if someone we really sort of like and trust says hey try this thing with me or come to this meeting with me or something like that and then we can begin to experience it that's a really huge change agent and it's a very simple change agent so what does that look like? Go ahead Charles just to comment quickly maybe a little bit obvious but the idea of changing the system or just going on the other end of the spectrum Judy mentioned that going dendritic and kind of just I'm just thinking sort of local hyper local and also global versus before maybe as a precursor to going global I don't know if it needs more detail but yeah context it's all about context in terms of trying to get the wisdom or the broader good of the whole what's the whole at any given time and the whole doesn't really have a view of itself go ahead Charles yeah I think we're lacking direction there is no destination that is universally agreed once we have a destination then the efforts can slender in millions of ways and everyone can have their own contribution within their own context but when I look at the rage and the anger in Portland for example in our people in the street well that's completely misdirected anger it doesn't achieve change it only creates more conflict conflict creates friction which wastes energy so if we had an idea or a clear understanding of where we need to go to and how we can help one another and how we can truly get back to the system then the efforts can optimize but we don't have that vision other thoughts are we lacking division where are we on this what do you feel I think Jay's thing of wandering around and touching on things it was kind of like a duck duck juice all the duck that made sense and if you want to make a coherent plan it falls into the death space and everybody doesn't know what to say we need to approach it like wandering around and touching on things Jay go ahead Jay did you want to jump in oh okay you unmuted yourself so I thought you were heading in Doug well I think the change that we need needs to be in terms of the way we do food where we live and also the culture that we do it in and I don't see how you get there except by recovering from a disaster the problem of trying to get to a better place without going through a disaster is that people sense that they have to lose the current life that they have which in many cases feels worth holding on to and by some strange twist of fate currently in a gigantic dislocation I mean just the pandemic never mind the economic things but when you start layering on the various things that are happening a lot of industries are being Klaus was talking about earlier on this call that there's lots of industries that just are not going to come back many people will be laid off etc so we have a moment where if we could model, paint or live in better perhaps to new ways of being doing living in place and so forth that might actually work I mean partly I'm interested in what do kids do once they get tired of trying to pretend like they're going through normal school in zoom that opens a huge opportunity to think differently and learn differently Kevin go ahead and then Mark I think I was just what Jay did was really good I've seen Doug do it one time somebody gets designated each OGM call to be the thread connector, you know the duck duck goose person whose job is not to say something new but to connect three or four things every half hour and that's only their job so somebody's like the external sense maker to the thing it can be a traded off role or simple you can't say your new ideas to connect to the limit might be you have to connect at least three things people have said and I think some of us are sort of I mean I know that Pete's doing a fabulous job of mavenizing during our calls at work speed and contributing to the conversation so can we apply our own medicine to our process here Lauren do you want to jump in? Yeah can you hear me? Yes Connecting a few dots that we've had between what we've been ideating on and Judy you know to OGM like in a practical sense what can we actually do and we love talking about big things but it's what big changes can we actually affect and again back to what I was saying maybe our specialty can be coining these terms and if we can do that we can that's kind of like what we like to do what we do anyway but if we could do that with more focus and then we can coin these new terms then we can actually measure our impact if there are new terms we can actually measure them on the internet whether they're appearing in Twitter and see where they're appearing and then measure that like marketing and there are already established ways to do that and see where in our network are things you know being affected like what combinations of people are causing magic to happen but we can actually see that measure it and make smaller campaigns like Peter was saying are having success yeah and each of us is involved in communities and projects that we care about and we're each listening to each other and trying to be helpful to each other so in some sense is a lot of meme transmission or idea transmission between us and we're trying to sort of shake things into better alignment but we're not using our tools that well because the tools barely exist I was realizing yesterday in the middle of the kind of arguments I was trying to build that I could really benefit from connecting over to Mark's climate web stuff and just sort of borrow in and click and connect but I don't do that and we could sort of share brains on pieces of that to build a better argument so how might we step through those those barriers as well go ahead Mark and I do link into your brain Jerry just to let people know but coming back to Doug's point for just a second it's actually interesting because you would think that after these kinds of natural disasters that we're having on from a climate change perspective it might be a good time to get people thinking differently about climate change unfortunately the studies that have been done on that come to exactly the opposite conclusion just because when people are in that state they are so desperately thinking about returning to normal that adding the idea that you can't return to normal and you shouldn't be thinking about returning to normal is it just creates even more cognitive dissonance for them and they just can't deal with it so it's a bit of a catch 22 which is hold on only I could type which brings me just to vocabulary because I realized a couple years ago that I didn't really like sustainability because they implied to me being like a rubber band snapping back to the same place you were before where plasticity implies reshaping and the ability some thermoplastics let you reshape them into some new setting and to me thriving and flourishing were words that allowed me to start thinking about completely changing how things are being done where you are, how you live, whatever you do and then reorienting them in a different way so I've changed sort of how I talk about these things in that way because we when trauma hits our creativity shuts down our short term memory shuts down a whole bunch of things really short circuit and it's very hard to think of new things or imagine some great new way you just kind of want what you had how do we build out from that Charles go ahead just a quick comment recalling a metaphor that I've and some of us have gone into on and off for the last months in terms of resilience my sense of that why it's still useful and maybe good in the sense of resilience in a journey in the process of moving forward transitioning and becoming sort of robust and having integrity the metaphor of the ship at sea and especially not just sort of the tides and the waves but the storms this kind of thing just offering that we're coming up on 90 minutes and so I think we should probably wrap on the half anyone with concluding thoughts I'm really torn about this call in the middle of an emergency and we're talking in that way but also we're all frustrated in that we're talking that way Jay go ahead Jay then Hank it's possible it's not a future we want to think about but it's possible that this actually there's a fair likelihood that this unraveling just continues that that fear and disconnection is an epic strategy and we're going to bring this into this next level of politics and so it's possible that this is kind of the warm up conversation for two months from now where we're like oh shit I can't believe that happened politically and so I think there's a kind of new normal in terms of mayhem in terms of upheaval in terms of shifting in terms of the necessity to compartmentalize but yet deal with all of the components and so and I think this is I know this has been said in different forms but just restating this piece that I was describing what I what I'm kind of trying to poke at here is that if we can bring together all of the forces that we're working with all of the component parts that we're acting on all of the skills that we have rather than just breaking them out into different iterations in different possibilities and story can be a piece of it a guiding piece a meta piece but also a micro piece because it involves human transformation on the root level and the various technologies messaging all the components can help us to actually create something that gives possibility to me that's a win I know those are big words but I think that in an hour and a half of talking just about that we could probably gain some some ground so yeah that's it thank you thank you Jay Hank did you want to jump in? No I raised my hand kind of on accident so I will cede the time to somebody else. It was my auctioneer reflex that saw you I understand Thanks for the opportunity Anyone else with closing words on this call? I just wanted to reflect I've been turning in the background and actually I've had a lot of trouble with the transcriber crashes regularly so I have to restart it and I'm juggling bunches of tabs and stuff like that but I wanted to reflect that it feels good I can think back you know 12 months 12 months, 2 years, something like that where everything seemed horrible and like it was unfixable and it was just doom and gloom and you know we couldn't do anything we still have a lot of that I think but we also have I see this group these people here working through issues quickly and reasonably efficiently and with a lot of people picking up thoughts from each other working the problem I think so it feels good to not only be kind of past one of several stages of grief in the apocalypse that we're in multiple that we're participating in but that also it feels like we're starting to be able to stand up and start to walk into a different environment and be able to actually think and decide what we might want to do to actually talk about possibilities and change and things like that I also wanted to kind of thank everybody and apologize a little bit I was trying to grab not only was I grabbing links and stuff I was also grabbing some transcript stuff and dropping it in this was a great little experiment so I can imagine or I have a dream where we have some power tools in the background that work a lot better than the ones that we do now and that a team like this I don't know the context but a team like this could be like airdropped into into a larger conversation and we could do real-time sense-making and real-time like projection into multiple alternatives and paths and ways to figure that out so thank you everybody for for that I really like your dream, Pete and I would love to know whether organizations would love to have that and would pay for it because I think that's a tremendous service that improves thinking and you're describing a really nice goal of opening global mind how to improve the process of thinking together, making decisions together so I'd love to see that happen maybe we need like a paratroop core and thank you for what you were doing intensely on the call like the speed with which you did a couple of those things was like amazing Charles would you be so kind as to read the poem and then we'll go out of the call Sure, glad to I thought I would just I found this cool image from David Preston that I would reveal the fork in the road there anyway okay do you know the kids books are clown around sorry? do you know the kids books are clown around they take a vacation and find the fork in the road anyway never mind I'll have to find it it's a great kids book to the light of September when you're already here you appear to be only a name that tells of you whether you are present or not and for now it seems as though you are still summer still the high familiar endless summer yet with a glint of bronze in the chill mornings and the late yellow petals of the mulling rain fluttering on the stalks that lean over their broken shadows across the cracked ground but they all know that you have come the seed heads of the sage the whispering birds with nowhere to hide you to keep you for later you who fly with them you who are neither before nor after you who arrive with blue plongs and through the night perfect in the dew thank you Charles that's beautiful thanks everybody else we will close out this call and see you online and let's figure some of this stuff out thank you thank you Jerry