 Okay, hey everybody. It's been just a little while. I've been traveling. I was just in Orlando at Dave Asprey's upgraded biohacking bulletproof conference. What a great time it was just to be with colleagues and like-minded people and see all kinds of cool things. But we've been away from podcasting and doing these videos for a couple weeks. So it is good to be back. And I'm here with a guest today that we've had before. I am so excited to have her again and tell you about one of her new courses and some of the work she's doing to help all of you with mold and mass cell activation. So stay tuned for that. And I will formally introduce Beth O'Hare in just a moment. But before I do just a little housekeeping, you can find all of my YouTube videos on YouTube, my channel, just under my name, Dr. Jill.com. If you haven't heard, we're now live on Spotify and Stitcher and iTunes. Anywhere you can listen to your podcast, you can find my podcast. It will be the audio version of these videos. So you can listen at your leisure when you're hiking or biking or walking or in the car. It's a little easier than navigating the YouTube site. So hopefully that'll be a great resource for you. This one will also be live there shortly. So you can find those all there. If you want resources just from my website, you can find me at jillcarnahan.com, my main website with all kinds of free resources, 10 years of blogs. So there's literally thousands of articles there, all free. And then you can also find any of the products at drjilhealth.com. So drjilhealth.com. And today I am just absolutely excited to welcome guest Beth O'Hara. She's a functional naturopath, specializing in complex chronic cases of mast cell activation syndrome, histamine intolerance, and mold toxicity. We share a similar journey and we'll give you a little refresher if you didn't hear her first interview about her own journey. And it's a little bit parallel to my own. We both have often the greatest learning comes through our own experiences. She's a founder and owner of Mast Cell 360, a functional naturopathic practice designed to look at all factors surrounding health conditions, genetic, epigenetic, biochemical, physiological, environmental, and emotional. And this is just needed now more than ever because there are so many environmental toxins and loads and we'll talk about that today that are just weighting down our system. And it's almost like we're under this weight and we can't get out. I think it's a piece of the puzzle with the recent pandemic and why things are so bad because our environmental toxic load is weakening our immune system. She's got lots of credentials. She just she's designed Mast Cell 360, a website, a course, and we're going to talk about her new course today too. So without further ado, welcome, Beth to the podcast. Thank you so much, Dr. Jo. I'm just really thrilled to be back with you and love everything that you're doing. Thank you. And we align so well. Like I said, we both have our own journeys and also just the passion for helping. I'm sure like you, we both just a lot of people are getting stuck in the system and not getting help. And they're either told they're crazy or told that their labs are normal because docs don't know what to check. But I know like you, I see patients all the time that have been to a lot of doctors, they've been told it's all in their mind. And you and I know this isn't always true. In fact, most of the time it's not true. And when we look at the deep level of labs and a lot of times there's this puzzle with histamine intolerance. Before we go into like mold and histamine intolerance and how these all connect, do you want to share just a little bit of your story and how you got into this? Sure. So when I was a child, we moved out to the country. My parents bought this old farmhouse, which seemed like I was really into L'Art Ingalls Wouter at the time. It seemed like this big adventure, you know, and we had a couple acres. But what we didn't know back then was that that house was so full of toxic mold. And mold wasn't epidemic like it is now. I mean, some people got mold toxicity, but it wasn't that kind of problem that we're having now. We didn't have routers back then and, you know, Wi-Fi devices or anything like that. That's increasing the mold, growth of mold, but there was just so much. And as a child, my health started going downhill a couple years after we moved there. And I played outside all the time. So I was bit by ticks continually. And by the time I was in high school, I was crashing pretty badly with my health, like having a hard time getting up in the mornings. I had a lot of chronic pain. I'd had a head injury as a child, which didn't help. And starting to develop cervical cranial instability and man cell activation. So by the time I was 12, I was on more medications than both my parents put together. So I would break out head to toe and chronic hives and would scratch my skin to my blood. My eyes were always itching so bad. I couldn't keep makeup on. You know, when I was a later teenager, because I was just constantly rubbing my eyes. But I pushed through. I went to college and I'm like you an overachiever and go, go, go. And I have so much I want to do. And in college, I was working three jobs. I was teaching at a technical school where you had to have a master's. I didn't have a bachelor's yet and just doing a lot of stuff. I was taking graduate courses and burning a candle at both ends. And I completely crashed out my junior year of college. I couldn't hardly move. I couldn't get a bed before 12 o'clock. I had multiple scholarship offers to medical school and I had to turn them all down. And it was still probably one of the most devastating things that ever happened because that was my dream. And I was six. I was in a little recital and decided at that age, I was going to be a doctor. Wow. And so I had to figure out what in the world else I was going to do. I barely finished out my bachelor's. I took the minimal number of credits I had to take the easiest classes just so I could finish. And then instead of becoming the I wanted to go into neurology, instead of going into neurology, I became a chronically old patient and did the rounds. And I exhausted Western medicine. I tried every medication. Most of them made me worse. I kept getting more sensitive as I went along. And then I started holistic medicine and back then functional medicine was still early. And I started in a found functional medicine. I mean, when I say I try everything, I tried homeopathy. I did psychotherapy because so many people told me I was making this up. And I did 10 years of therapy and I did shamanic work. I did anything I could possibly do. And I just kept getting worse. And by the time I was in my late 20s, I was walking with a cane. And my friends were going out dancing and I could barely I would hold my bladder just so I didn't have to get up and hobble to the bathroom because it was just like walking on glass and every joint and it was just horrible pain. And my the sensitivities kept getting worse to where in my 30s, I couldn't even do a sprinkle of quercetin. It would make me inflamed or cumin would make me inflamed. Things like GABA would make me anxious. I was having these paradoxical experiences and didn't know about nervous system dysregulation and how mycotoxins and Lyme and Bartonella and all these things cause nervous system dysregulation. But we figured out the Lyme, the Bartonella, the Babesia first. I couldn't tolerate any treatments. I couldn't take anything. And when I started reacting to homeopathics, it was like, this makes no sense at all. But later, I landed on the mold toxicity. It was like, this, this is it. And at that point, I had seen 75 practitioners and totaled up that I had spent over $350,000 trying to get my health back. And thank God for my husband who, you know, took care of me because I couldn't hardly work. I mean, it just was barely functioning. But I crawled out of that hole. And the mold toxicity and the nervous system dysregulation were the huge pieces. And I was one of the fortunate people that found that around 30, 40%. My Lyme cleared spontaneously once the mold toxicity was getting cleared up. And but the nervous system dysregulation had to get addressed first. I'd had a lot of traumas. I'd had this head injuries and bad car accidents. And then all that biochemical signaling pieces that were going on, the cervical cranial issues, the vagal pressure. So that was a big part of the healing as well as to calm my nervous system. And that opened up the door to be able to do the protocols and take the supplements to get well. And I just, I bring that in because people so often underestimate it. But I find, and I specialize in super sensitive people now, it's 50% of the healing process at a minimum. And for some people, a lot of trauma might be 60, 70%. It's as important as all these supplements that we're trying to do. Beth, thank you for sharing. I remember the first time we talked and you shared and you showed even more today. It's so resonant. Number one, I think everybody listening who's had any experience with mold or MCAS is just listening and having such great compassion for you because we all know where you've been, maybe not even to the extreme, but it's it's unbelievable. And what a testimony for you to have gone through this. And I'll tell you again, you know this, I mentioned it earlier, but when we walk through this journey, there's these bits and pieces of knowledge that we could never get in a textbook or in a lecture hall. I have this all the time where I have this intuitive sense that I like, I know what that is, or I recognize something. And there's no textbook that would have ever told me that it's my own journey that taught me the most way more than any medical education. So I'm so sorry you had to suffer. But like me, we are, because of our suffering, we bring a different level of understanding to this field for sure. As you're talking, a couple of things came to mind. First of all, histamine, this is this crazy thing. And I wanted to tell y'all, we all are talking about histamine as this danger signal and it's over reactive and it's related to mast cell. And mast cells are these primordial cells that protect us and they're doing their job. So they just get, they just get kind of angry and irritated like if you poke a bear that's trying to hibernate and then they get overactive and they throw out literally hundreds, maybe even thousands of chemicals, prostaglandins and histamine. And histamine's the one we talk about. But what I wanted to mention with part of your story was, I was a refectionist. I was a high achiever. You're highly intelligent. I can say that about you. And guess what? Histamine is actually highly associated with IQ and motivation. So there's this good side like everything. Histamine can be really beautiful. And a lot of the patients, and you and I both share this too, we actually genetically produce a lot of histamine. And there was good things to that part of our life, because it allowed us to be productive and ambitious and very intellectual, curious, those things. But as any curve, too much of a good thing is a bad thing. So I just want to mention that because histamine is good. It keeps us alert. It keeps us focused. It's motivational. But too much is a bad thing. And we often see this pattern because the higher histamine people tend to be the higher achievers because of that histamine load. So it's very interesting. Now, a third thing you mentioned that I wanted to comment on was your concussion. So I've talked to my friend, the Broncos neurosurgeon, Dr. Chad Prasmic, many times on this. And he sees he's a concussion expert. He's a neurosurgeon. And he has looked at the data. He knows functional medicine. And he said, Jill, a concussion by itself is very much not an issue. It's a concussion plus toxin or infection. And the literature supports this. So what happens is when you have a head injury, if you had no infection like Lyme or co-infections and no mold exposure, you might never notice. You might not have residual issues. But when you have a concussion on top of a moldy situation or mass selectivation or Lyme, Bartonella, Babesia, these co-infections, that's when it becomes more chronic or more of a problem. And it's also similar to the layered, what you talked about, similar journey for me is the trauma, like old trauma gets compounded when we get a mold exposure. So back to your original point. And then I'll let you explain some of this is there's always a traumatic component to mold and Lyme too. I would say 100% of my patients, even if they're not super sensitive like the ones that you see, there's a piece of the puzzle that's addressing old trauma that gets them well. And that's because limbic activation can happen with a physical substance like a toxin. It can happen with an infectious thing like Babesia, Bartonella, Lyme, Epstein Barr, COVID, any of these things. And it can also happen with trauma. And the body doesn't differentiate that limbic system activates on all levels for any of these things. And then starts this loop, but they tend to compound on one another, don't they? It absolutely does. And it's, you know, we can be going through our lives just fine. And we know that people often have these multiple mold exposures. So for most people that end up chronically ill from mold, it's not like it's just one event for majority of them. They've had repeated exposures, but it was just under that threshold. They were doing fine. But then something crosses the threshold with either toxins like mold and chemical toxins, pathogens, stress or injury and pushes into that cell danger response. And in that cell danger response, and then it triggers these old layers of trauma to the surface. And that's exactly what you're talking about. And so we've got to peel those back. So it's not that it's in our heads. And it's not that it's making, we're making it up. And it's not that this is psychological. But it is that the healing is partly an emotional, spiritual healing as well. And that's why I called it Masso 360. And I know that's the work you do too. It's like, we've got to look at the whole person, we can't just be going, okay, let's fix biochemistry, because everything's connected. And when I'm teaching at conferences, I have a slide I like to use, it looks like a bucky ball, one of those like, like a really complex soccer ball with tons of facets, you know, it has all these points. And then I lay out on here, we've got, you know, with mold toxicity, and we've got Lyme, and we've got structural issues, and we've got cranial sacral, you know, fluid issues. And, and we've got all this biochemistry and blood issues and he misses. And, and but then we have to also lay out here, we've got emotional and spiritual and structural. And if we start to impact one area, it reverberates through the whole system. So if we start to impact on that spiritual emotional as well, it reverberates through. And we have to have this supportive environment to heal. And so many people aren't getting that experience, they're getting, you know, this just hard edged aggressive. And you do this, or, you know, that's it, I can't help you, if you can't take six capsules of this thing. But, but we, we have to feel safe to heal as well, we've got to feel safe with our healers, and we've got to feel safe within ourselves and develop that sense of safety. And as much as I never would have chosen to have gone through what I went through, and I know you wouldn't have either, that the healing that I did has brought me to a place I don't think I ever could have gotten to otherwise. I could not agree more. I softened like these gifts is really now that I look back, the cancer, the Crohn's, the mold, all this stuff I've been through. Each one of them was this massive gift. It didn't feel like it at the time. But like I said, the training I got in the school of suffering is really, really good way better than medical training. So a couple questions, it's so fun to listen, because I think in all kinds of great questions. First of all, I want to talk about the mold and muscle trigger next, but before we do, I want to talk about why are some people in an environment, they might have Lyme, they don't know it, they might have a mold exposure. And then as they start to figure this out of that threshold, I think of it as a bucket too, like the bucket starts to fill up with toxic loader infections, and it starts to pour over the top. And at some point, they start to be symptomatic, and they start to wonder what's going on and not well. But why is it that as we start to treat them, whether they're super sensitive or moderately sensitive, they sometimes become more sensitized before they get better. It's like the term unmasking, you've probably used that as well. Can you talk just a little bit about, let's talk about what is unmasking? And then let's go into your question about what would you do first for the really sensitive people before detoxing mold? So unmasking and then what's the very first steps for someone who's super sensitive? So unmasking is not a term that I've actually heard. Okay, so I'll tell us again, this is on the mold circles, I always learn from you and realize, so unmasking is that term. Basically, when we first start to detox someone who has mold, say they're immersed in this home, and the home is full of mold, and they don't feel great, but they're not like walking in the laundry detergent aisle and having red blood eyes and itching, they're kind of okay. But as we start to do the detox process, they actually become more sensitive to chemicals and more sensitive to mold. And they're like, I'm getting worse, what's going on? So I've heard that term unmasking for that. And I know you know that just maybe the terms we use, what would you say to that? Like, what's happening? What would you do? How would you reassure people? Yeah, that makes complete sense to me. I think of it as like layers will surface. Yes. And so part of what I think is happening there is two-fold. One is we're pulling maybe too many toxins too fast. Yes. And we have to really watch that and particularly aggressive detox protocols. And there's some people who can absolutely take any amount of binders, any amount of other agents, any amount of glutathione, and they're perfectly fine. That's not the people that make it into my clinic. So those aren't the people that I serve the best. I serve well, the people who they're struggling with glutathione, they're struggling with taking a whole capsule of charcoal or chlorella or clay and zeolite. These are setting them back. So we have to remember that these agents will draw toxins out of the tissues. And then we've got these toxins circulating. And we have to clear them through bowel movements, through stool, through sweating, through lymph drainage. And there's a threshold for everybody. There's a rate of excretion and a rate of pulling into the bloodstream. So if that rate of pulling the toxins out of the tissue exceeds what we can excrete, we're going to have more toxins in the bloodstream than we can handle. And that's the whole premise of Neil Nathan's book, Toxic. We don't want to get to that toxic state. So then we're going to start having more sensitivities. That's one element of it. Another element is, as we're pulling these things out, they're going to trigger the nervous system. And this whole sensitivity thing that so many people are struggling with. And I can tell you, even from when I've started working with people one-on-one about 12 years ago, this has gotten much worse. And the people I talk to, like you, have been working with people for 20, 30 years. They're seeing this get compounded and worse over time. I agree. And I just want to say, I sew, this is like exponentially, it was like 10 years ago, and then it changed five years ago. And now it's year by year. It is exponentially the types of patients every year, every month that I see. Again, I don't want to interrupt you. I just thought it was so important that complexity and the, and again, it's this toxic load is getting worse, right? And especially in this past year, this past year and a half. And I think there's other factors with that. And I want to go too far on a tangent. But the other piece is our mass cells, our vagal nerve, and our limbic system, work as an axis as our sensing and defending system. And when I went through my graduate classes and did all the anatomy and physiology, and when I talk to people even now, I get medical students who come in and they tell me, we're not being taught about mass cells, right? We're not being taught about how the nervous system, the immune system, and in the hormone system, the endocrine system, are all actually interlinked. And we need to be living out. There's a term now, like it should be medicine, like at the forefront, neuroimmuno-endocrinology. Like this is a science. And yet, like you said, even for sure my education and these students that are coming out now, there is not a lot of understanding around this, is there? It's a whole specialty. But that's what I specialized in my master's research. And what I've continued to really dive deeply into is how these things are linked. What I find so fascinating is there are mass cells at every nerve ending. And the mass cells have receptors for the neurotransmitters and the neuropeptides being released by the nerve endings. And the nerve endings have receptors for the mass cell mediators. And there's this continual feedback loop. There's also mass cells in the limbic system in the brain. So this is part of how they're working together. And I think of them like the guards of the castle gate. They've got their arms linked. They're there to protect us. And as you called them, primordial cells. They've been with not just humans, but all mammals, all animals for all this, you know, these millennium, millennium, millennium. And they're sensing everything. That's why they've got these hundreds of receptors to sense chemicals, to sense molds, viruses, bacteria. They sense stress chemicals. They sense foods. They sense anything in the body. They line all of our blood vessels and sense everything going through the bloodstream. And so when we're pulling more mold toxins into the bloodstream, it's going to trigger more of those mass cells. And those mass cells are going to sound the alarm to the nervous system, to the vagal nerve, which is super complex. And now we're calling it the polyvagal system, because it's not just one nerve, and to the limbic system. And they're in control of sensitivities, those three areas. So we're pulling too many toxins too fast. That's going to dial all of that up. And that's why we really work on calming the nervous system. So I talk about we have to go through and do detox prep before we can detoxify. And I was just meeting with somebody yesterday. He's a CEO. He's like gung-ho. He, you know, he wants to get on it. And I had scheduled him 10 weeks out. And then I see him on my schedule and I'm like, we just met three weeks ago. Well, he'd gotten his real-time microtoxin test back. And he wanted to get on those binders. And I'm like, well, how's the nervous system work going? Have you started the mass cell stabilizing supplements? Where are you with that? And he hadn't gotten there. I'm sorry, I'm not going to give you binders today. Because if I do, you're likely going to be five more steps back when you get started. And this is what I comment. I'm going to be so stereotypical, but it's so classic. Those men, they're like, give it to me. Let's do this. Let's hit this mold. Let's kill it. Let's do it. And again, I was like that too. So that kind of massive. I was too. So it's more like that energy of like, come on, let's just get this done. Let's get to the program. But what you're saying is that can really be harmful. And I love, this is so important if you're listening. Because if you're, whether it's herxheimer reactions have been around a while, if you've never heard that term, that means like, say we're treating Lyme or obscene bars, some chronic infection. And we give you the medications or the herbs too quickly. The dead debris that we're dealing with in the body is overwhelms the detox system, the capacity. And so you have symptoms. And a lot of docs are just like, Oh, it's fine. It's just a heart. You and I were like, no, no, no, that means we're overloading the pathways, the lymphatics, the lungs, the kidneys, the stool and the gut. And we need to pull back. And this is very similar. It's not like a killing of anything, but it's a elimination process. And again, as a naturopathic functional practitioner, you're even more attuned to those aren't they called the humongants, or there's a term for that. Yeah, you've got to drain. You've got to be able to drain out before you add more in. So I tell people that if you're flaring already when you come in, and you're up here, so for the people who don't have the visual, you know, we're talking like, you're up six feet in your flare, and you're flaring up and down. And then we're going to add detox agents, which is going to give you more ups and downs. You're not going to like me. You're not going to like your life. And we don't want to do that. We want to bring this flare down, not that we can get rid of it right now, but let's calm it down so that and let's bring it down like a good two feet, so that when you're starting the detox, then your ups and downs are much more comfortable. And you can get through this. But I think I lost about three years doing this aggressive, trying too hard. And that's where I learned my lesson, the hard, hard way. Me too. I literally, I've said a price of this before when we spoke, but that first few months, I was so aggressive on the binders and the glutathione. First of all, I don't do well in glutathione. I had no business at that point doing glutathione, because it was all being oxidized, causing more reactive oxygen or reactive species than even help. And then second, I just loaded up on the binders. And my manifestation was hives, head to toe for three months. Like I literally was covered with hives. And like you said, as a child, I had that all over eczema that was blue. I mean, same exact childhood as you. So it's so interesting because it's that that production of all those things and pushing too hard. And it finally I realized, I will say this here, I talked to a couple other guests, I recognize people like you and I, Beth. And I always say, you're still a badass, but you're a delicate flower. And it was one of my friends who like literally told me one day, Jill, she's like, you know what, you can be strong, you can ride your motorcycle, you can go climb mounds and be a badass, but you're still delicate and you're sensitive. And the more you embrace that nature. So if you're listening and you think, well, I'm tough, I can do it, it's okay to be both. It's like feminine, masculine, yin and yang, badass and delicate flower. And I finally embrace the fact that, yeah, I'm a badass. I'm also a delicate flower. I love that. I absolutely love that. So tell me about the two steps we kind of have tiptoed around here, but say you have someone who's super toxic, super sensitive. What would you do before the mold detox? Yeah. So we go through the pre-tox and this is exactly what I teach in my course too. So we go through and we do nervous system calming. We have to work on both the limbic and the vagal nerve. And that's where I see people make a lot of mistakes is that they want just one program. They want to just do limbic work. Or can I just do this breathing meditation that I found on YouTube? And I've worked with over 600 people one on one now. I haven't seen it work. Maybe it'll work for you, but do you want to get through or do you want to experiment? And most people just want to get through. So the limbic system is like DNRS or the Gupta program or the two top ones that I know. And then vagal nerve supports are going to be and I have people do as many as they can manage. And this will be things like I love brain taps, safe and sound protocol, alternate nostril breathing. Some people really need, I'll recommend that they go get checked out by an osteopath who does cranial work or maybe they need to see a specialized very gentle upper cervical chiropractor. I had to get prolotherapy in my neck to stabilize because of all the ligament damage I had. And so there's things like this where we've got to stabilize the nervous system. Stanley Rosenberg is a wonderful book called Accessing the Healing Power of the Vagal Nerves. I love that, yeah. Some other things. And the key is for all of everyone out there who still is these go, go, go, you know, overachievers, add them in one at a time, little bit at a time, because you don't want to hit your nervous system with a ball bat. That's what you're trying. You're trying to create a sense of safety. A deep sense of safety that translates down to the biochemical level. I love that you keep going back to safety too. And what you said earlier as well, if you're listening out there, you want to find a practitioner that you can work with, like Beth, that's really in tune with that, because one of the things you started out with that's so important, and I've heard this over and over from my patients, for me to check in with them and say, how does this feel to you? Is this too much? Are you doing okay? And let them be part of the decision, because I know there's protocols that work, but everybody's such an individual and part of the safety is giving them control. So it's not like they're out of control and allowing them to be part of the process and allowing them to take things if it's safe at their pace. And usually it's slower than maybe we think. So I love that because safety is part of the practitioner you work with. Yeah, exactly. And then once people are tolerating this and they're doing well. And for a lot of people, if they really commit to it, they start to see some improvements within about six to 10 weeks. Yeah. And these are people who've been so sick for years. Six to 10 weeks is a short amount of time. Now, they may be doing these for six months to a year. I'm going to do them the rest of my life because it makes me so much better at what I do. It helps my cognition. I'm so much calmer. But that's that's step one of the pre or the detox prep. Then we have to do mast cell calming. We've got to really calm these mast cells down because mold toxins are so triggering to the mast cells. Yeah. And I love how you talk about that the mast cells, the histamine levels, these aren't bad. We don't want to knock them out. But I think of it like they've gotten PTSD because they've had to be on guard. And now they're so hyper vigilant. They're like Arnold Schwarzenegger in his body building days, you know, they've got muscles on their muscles and they're shooting at the butterflies. Yes. So we've got to soothe them and let them calm down so they can start to function more normally and not be throwing out these thousand plus meat eaters. And then we have to work on elimination and make sure that we are drinking enough water, make sure we're getting those regular bowel movements. Sometimes we've got to get creative because so many people with their bowels just shut down. Bagel work helps with bowel movements. And that's usually missing peace and constipation. And then we can move people into starting to work on the binders. And we have to go backwards. I see so many people come in and there's just no education out there about this for practitioners. And so that people are obviously doing the best they can do, but so many people come in and they've been put on a bunch of antifungals and biofilm and they're no binders. They're not having bowel movements. They're just getting worse. So we've got to open these pathways up backwards. We've got to do the elimination and we've got to do the binders. Then we support the liver. Then we can go in those antimicrobials. And last we do biofilm. Totally agree with that. In fact, sometimes two things you mentioned early on, first of all biofilms. Let's talk about that briefly. I am just of that same mindset of I don't use them unless I need them. And I would say maybe 80% don't need biofilms. They do okay without, but if they do, it's a very last step because it will blow apart stuff and really send a lot of debris into the systemic circulation because a lot of the biofilm disruptors also will chew up fibrin, which is on the endothelium in the vascular system. And this can be just that fibrin is actually often they're protective in Lyme and mold and these things to kind of hold on to those infections and toxins. And as you start to bust that apart, you can blow it up. It is protecting us. That biofilm also is protective. Exactly. Yeah. And it's not a bad thing. Our good guys live in there too. So it's not just a dangerous thing. And if we don't want to go randomly busting biofilms unless we know what we're doing or it's the appropriate order. Let's see. There was something else that'll come to me in a second, but you were talking about order of operations, which is so important. And sometimes you feel like, at least my patients probably like yours. They feel like, oh, my gosh, it's so slow. Can't we just get the binders? But really, truly, this order is going to save you in the long run. So we're getting close to end of time. A couple of things I want to talk about. I want to talk about the research on binders and maybe just a minute or two on your favorite binders and what you would use for maybe different toxins or just a little bit about binders. And then I want to talk about the course. You're just hot off the press. I think this will be a great resource for listeners. We will be sure and include a link and we'll talk about that in just a minute, both here and anywhere you can hear this podcast. But go ahead and talk about binders first. So I'm so excited about this research, Jill. Because when I started with mold detox, I was scouring the internet. I was reading your blog. I was reading anything I could get hands on. What binders can we use? What's working? And a lot of people were doing what was anecdotally they were noticing they thought would help. And I ended up through Bob Miller presenting at a conference and he said, Beth, I'm on his research team and some research advisor on his Nutrogenetic Research Institute. And he asked those of us, take a phase two detox pathway. We're going to do this conference on mycotoxin. So Emily Gibbler and I split the phase two detox pathways. And I took glycoronidation because I thought that this was going to be easy because my textbooks had like two pages on it. But it was a simple pathway. I had no idea. You know why I'm laughing. Thank goodness I started early. It took me six months to comb through the research on just glycoronidation and mold toxins and different types of toxins. So we presented on that. What we learned first of all was that the major phase two detox pathway for mold toxins is not glutathione. It's almost not used. It's glycoronidation, which we need to be supporting. And we have to support with things like calcium deglucorate, rastozanthine, terastilabine. And one of the complicated things with glycoronidation is many agents will increase some of the 13 glycoronidation enzymes and dampen others. So you get an up and a down regulation. So we looked at what would upregulate across the board. Then Neil Nathan was at that conference and he came up and he said, look, I've got some of the pieces on binders. You've got the phase two detox pathways. We've got to put this out there and get it out to people. So we did and Joe Mathur did a lot of research as well. So I always want to give people credit because this is so much work we have spent over a year combing research data. And we actually have done two phases. So there was a phase we put out last year in 2020. It's been updated. And we now have mapped out what the research literature says about which binders bind best for which mold toxins. And that's a game changer because I always research I look at that it's very helpful. And we can get people through quicker. So just for example, there aren't any binders that bind every mold toxin other than what I learned from you, which was propyl mananen, which is like the ultra fiber protector, the colon protect. That one binds all the mold toxins. But then for example, opra toxin, charcoal is a weak binder. Colostyramine and well called are very good binders for opra toxin and zeolite binds it. But gliotoxin, the only binder it has in common is propyl mananen. So gliotoxin is best bound by bentonite clay and acetylcystine, which I don't use very often because I that's very tricky and since it's all for issues and say all kinds of other issues are fungal. Yeah, exactly. I dropped some radicals with excess iron and iron issues and saccharomyces bilarity. Yeah, yeah. So this is where if we have the map, we can look we can do the testing why the testing so important because if we see what mycotoxins are being excreted, then we can correlate which binders are going to bind those toxins the best, and then recheck in six months and raise some binders up and bring some binders down based on what's being excreted. It's going so much more smoothly doing it this way. Yeah, this work is so, so important, Beth. And thank you and Bob and everybody who's been part of this because we really all of us in the field have very much benefited from it. I use the same. It's so neat how you've seen my blog. I've seen your it's just like this. That's why I love collaborating with you and sharing your information because we all need each other. Don't we? And I always learn, yeah, the whole community. Yeah, but I love this work because this is really important. One just little caveat I was thinking about is liver phase one phase two is how we detox phase one is the cytochromes and what happens is most people that works pretty well and when you go through that there's this intermediate that's actually more toxic than the original toxin. And if you get stuck there where your phase two which is where glucoronidation mostly takes place, you get really, really toxic. One of the things that up regulates cytochromes and it can be a good thing is coffee. But if you're drinking a ton of coffee and you have fast cytochromes anyway like I do, and then you can get stuck. So it's I have no problem with coffee. I think it can be part of a healthy diet or detox, but you have to be careful about too much of some of these things because they'll they'll take you the wrong way if you don't have the support of phase two. And glutathione, glutathione. That's what people get in trouble with that too. Yeah that's actually I want to stop there because this is so critical like I told you I made the mistake early on. Okay glutathione we all need you know let's increase glutathione. Well for some people like myself who has difficulty recycling glutathione, I oxidize it all which is way, way worse and more harmful. A glutathione I went through my first two years once I figured it out without doing any oral or liposomal or IV glutathione and I did just fine. I use precursors that were gentle like vitamin C and glycine and glutamine. I used a little bit of NAC but even that I was very cautious and you can despite the popular opinion do detox without taking glutathione and you can do it effectively. I think it's important because we always think or patients like oh no I can't eat glutathione what's going to happen to me right and the truth is you can do it without. I almost never use it in this population. Yeah totally agree because again we know some of the genetic pathways. So in our last just minute or so I just put the link in the course your new course tell us a little bit about that because I know you've spent a lot of work creating this for people who are listening and suffering from this. Oh thank you so much Jill this course has been three years in research and then it took me seven months to create. I poured my heart and soul into it and what I did was I took everything that I could take in terms of how for sensitive people to go through a mold detox step by step by step and broke it down for them. So it starts right there at the nervous system supports the muscle supports takes them through the elimination takes them through the binders the phase two supports and the bile supports before then how to do the antimicrobials if you need the biofilm how to do that how to test how to retest there are some bonus modules on environmental mold it's not all comprehensive because it's a detox course but there are some bonus modules there and I did both a basic and an advanced level so the basic level is just the beginning information what do you need to know to get started pared down simplified and then the advances for people who really love podcasts like yours love all the details all the science information the research and for practitioners so I go into the background of it what's the research say on mycotoxins and mast cells mycotoxins and health conditions and what's the research say on mycotoxins and the nervous system and then there are a lot more advanced protocols in there and I do three really in depth case reviews so people can see how you can put it all together for different applications there's a module not advanced also in the heme pathway and what's sometimes called subclinical perforia oh love and solicit solicit oh you're right this is the advanced is not over nine hours of content and a workbook and step by step and the basic is about four and a half and a workbook and step by step amazing but um as always it is such a pleasure to talk to you thank you for the beautiful good work you are doing for the world and for all those who are suffering from mast cell and mold toxicity and I've just started asking um my uh colleagues and friends that I'm interviewing kind of one last question and what would you say over your lifetime and what's happened to you over all of this has been your biggest victory oh my gosh that's a wonderful question I think my my biggest victory is learning to love my body oh love love oh fat I love ending on that note that is just my heart I'm almost in tears because you know it's funny I was just talking to the group at Dave Astree's large group and I I just I said you know functional medicine supplements diet that's great that's important that's old school I know how to do that in my sleep the new healing is going to come from trusting our intuition about who we are what we're supposed to do and loving ourselves in a way that honors who we were meant to be and actually stepping out in the world that way so thank you for ending on such a beautiful note I couldn't agree more um I'm sure we'll have to have you back soon but I hope you have a great afternoon you too Jill it's always a pleasure to be with you