 Thank you, Samuel, thank you. All right, so I've just turned the recording on and we're going to take a moment to pray and then we will get started. Anybody who would like to lead us in prayer, maybe Tharon, wouldn't you, if it's OK, wouldn't you pray with us? Yes. Father, thank you. Thank you for this day that you blessed us with where we could come together and learn, Father. We pray that there will be your wisdom that guides us and there will be your spirit that surrounds us and helps us to grow more nearer to you as we come together and read through your word and listen from you, Lord Father. We pray that you bless us with that open mind to receive the things the way that you have you have kept for us to be learned, Father. We thank you for your goodness on our lives. We pray that you are a 9th pastor to be that channel and speak through him, Lord. We thank you and we ask this in Jesus' name. Amen, amen. Amen. Thank you. Good. So, you know, we just have a month and a half left in the semester. I need to, we need to write, create your exams and assessments and put that out. So, I have to work on it and we will get that done. And so, we're kind of, you know, getting ready to touch on several things that we wanted to cover in this course. So, today, the plan for today is we want to talk about sharing Christ with a Hindu, sharing Christ with a Muslim, just giving us, you know, I'm not getting into studying Hinduism or studying Islam. That's not what we want to do. We want to keep, give us a little framework. Keep a little, the key points that we need to highlight when we are talking to somebody from a Hindu faith or somebody from the Muslim faith. You know, what would be the main points that we should present to them about the person of Christ? We have spoken about the uniqueness of Christ. We have spoken about the resurrection of Christ. We've talked about salvation only in Christ, which we did last week. So, now we want to talk about, okay, how do I share Christ with these two, these two people of these two backgrounds? Now, we do want to, at some point, you know, the reason I'm looking at Hinduism and Islam is because they are the two major religions outside of Christianity. So, we are addressing them. But if we have time later on, we'll touch a little bit on, you know, other religions like Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism, and also maybe some of the cults that are there. We will see if we have time for that. But what we want to do is we want to address these two. And then I want to jump into another subject that is challenging for many of us, and especially in the light of what we've been through globally the last year and this year, the pandemic. We want to talk about the issue of suffering, right now, and, you know, why is there suffering? Why is there all these things? And why is there suffering, right? So, we will talk about that. And so, I'm kind of just rearranging material a little bit so that I can cover these things. And then if you have time, we can do things of, maybe of lesser importance. Anita, I see a comment there. Hindus are major in India or only in the other countries also. So, Hinduism in many ways is global, simply because Indians have gone all over the world, similar in some sense to Islam. When you think of Islam, you think, okay, you think of the Middle East, but actually, you know, Indonesia is not in the Middle East, it's in the Far East, but it's a major Muslim country. And so, in that sense, you know, Muslims have also spread around the world. So, Hindus are no longer, while the majority of Hindus live in India, Hinduism is no longer considered just part of India. It's everywhere. And yeah. So, that's why we're looking at these two main religions. So, the plan is, talk about these religions, then talk about suffering. We'll see how much we cover. Then after that, I want to talk about social issues. How do we respond to social issues? Like, you know, this big issue of homosexuality and gay, that whole space, abortion, divorce, climate change, genetic research. So, these are all social issues. You want to touch on those things so that we should be able to respond from a biblical perspective when it comes to these things. All right, so that's kind of the plan. And if we finish these, you know, these three main areas, which is responding, sharing Christ with Hindu-Muslim, understanding suffering and having a biblical response to suffering, and talking about some socialists, then we will then maybe come back and pick up some other religions and cults, okay? So, I'm keeping that intentionally. Do a later part if we have time, because I want to cover some of these, probably more important things. And these social issues are becoming more and more important and the church is getting dragged into these social issues. Whether you like it or not, you know, you're facing it everywhere. You're facing it in the workplace these days. Workplaces want to be inclusive, but then if you are the HR manager, what would you do? You know, how would you handle it? So, we need to have a biblical framework within which we respond to many of these social issues. So, that's the plan. Let's get into, you know, sharing Christ with the Hindu, sharing Christ with the Muslim, and then we will get on to the issue of suffering. So, I feel free to ask questions on this as we go along, right? So, sharing Christ with the Hindu, just in a tabular way, trying to highlight some of the key differences or contrasts between the Christian faith and the Hindu faith, right? Now, what do we say about God and different key points, right? So, about God, we're talking about an eternal triune God, the Christians. The Hindus have numerous gods and goddesses and the three main are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Man, about man, we know man is sinful but deeply loved by God. A man is part of God, came out of God and will eventually go back to God from a Hindu perspective. Scriptures, we have the Bible, we see it as an inspiring, valuable book. Similarly, the Hindus have the Vedas and then they have other books that they would quote, the Bhagavad Gita, the Ramayana, the Upanishads, so on. Jesus Christ, we see him as God who became man. From an Hindu perspective, Jesus, you have different kind of responses. Some would readily accept him as, yeah, yeah, he's maybe one of the incarnations, he's a good person, one of the many gods and some may just ignore entirely, right? So, you've got different response from Hindus. Some may be totally against Jesus Christ. So, you've got a mixed response from them. What about life's purpose? We say, look, in our goal is to have a personal relationship with God and live according to God's will. From a Hindu perspective, there's a huge focus on karma, which is having to do with works and somehow to make sure that your good deeds, outweigh your bad deeds, just do more good than bad. And there's also the focus emphasis on knowledge as a means to eventual enlightenment and devotion to God, which is being deeply devoted to God. And that's there. Now, just like in Christian, on the Christian side, you'll have people who are committed to this, to varying degrees. It's not like every Hindu is deeply committed to these things. Neither is every Christian deeply committed to these things, but we're just laying these things out in general. Heaven, what do we say? We know that's the place where God lives and that's where people will go after they die because of their faith in Christ. What does Hindu faith say? First of all, Hindu faith talks about reincarnation. So that means we are going to keep being born on this earth over and over again. We are going to be born, we live, we die, and we will be reborn or reincarnated back here on depending on how well we did in the previous life. And if we did well, then we would get into a higher life form, a higher state, ultimately coming into a place where we would be liberated from this cycle of birth, life, and death. So this liberation from this cycle of reincarnation is salvation, moksha, which is salvation. And eventually the goal is we will be united with the divine, we'll become one with God, or we'll attain nirvana and come into this place of being one with God and in a state of bliss. So the emphasis really is this whole cycle of birth, life, and death, and then coming back, birth, life, and death, coming back, and then eventually you live in such a way that you are liberated from this cycle, right? So going to heaven or salvation is understood as a liberation from the cycle of reincarnation. Now when we talk about Christian faith, we don't have that concept. We don't have the concept of reincarnation. We know, the Bible says, Hebrews 9 and verse 27, we spoke about it in the mentoring hour. It is appointed for man once to die after that, the judgment. So as it's a linear thing, you live life on earth, you die, there is a judgment, and then you're going to go to heaven or hell. So this is it. You have one chance, one life on earth, then heaven or hell. And salvation is God's gift through Jesus Christ. So it's not an attainment or not an escape that we attain to by our works or by some sort of a spiritual enlightenment, but it's something that we receive through Christ. So that's a big contrast here. And then in terms of hell, this is a place of torment, eternally separated from God, the Bible says. But hell, there's no concept of hell in the sense of being separated from God eternally, but the idea of hell is in this whole cycle of reincarnation, that as long as you're trapped in this life, birth, life and death cycle, that is hell or that is considered as being away from God, being in hell. So again, a point of contrast. Some other things that we can add, and I will go through this and others who want to share some more thoughts can do that. Some other things when you talk about the Hindu favor, Hinduism, is at least to some extent, and it's not that prevalent in too much these days. I mean, I have to qualify it, that especially in rural India, in towns and then to some degree in urban centers, there's still the underlying caste system. That means people still look at what caste were you born in on earth. So if you belong to a low caste, then you can't marry people from a different caste. That has changed, of course, in the urban centers, so we qualify that, but in some parts, people still hold on to that caste system and they use that especially in terms of marriage or other forms of alliances, how you interact with people. It's kind of the caste system kind of influences human relationships. Reincarnation, we mentioned that, it's this ongoing birth, life, and death cycle, and people have a strong belief in that. So they look at life from that perspective of reincarnation and trying to escape from that through works. Yoga actually refers to discipline or the right kind of spiritual exercises. So when you talk about yoga, from a Hindu perspective, it's a set of spiritual exercises and they could be whether these are in the form of knowledge, in the form of devotion, in the form of deeds, or in the form of self-awareness, they're expressed in different ways. But it's really forms of expressions, of spiritual exercises, of spiritual disciplines, and that's what yoga is. Karma has to do with your deeds. So what do you do? You do good, you do bad, and the underlying philosophy is your deeds are weighed in a balance and your works, your good deeds, have to outweigh your bad deeds. Dharma is expressing goodness to people, being good to people, gracious to people, so on. And another point to keep in mind is the idea of avatar, God coming in human form, which is interesting because we also, the Christian faith also talks about incarnation, God coming in human form. The huge difference is that the avatars in the Hindu faith are not flawless. That means they do things, Rama, Krishna, others, they do wrong things. They, whereas in the Christian understanding of incarnation, the incarnation is God becoming man, and he is sinless. He is perfect because he's God who became man, whereas that is not held tightly in avatars from in Hinduism. It is God coming as human form, but being completely human. That's just a quick overview of the people from the Hindu faith and Christian faith. We all understand that not every Hindu necessarily holds all of these things very tightly. They have these underlying philosophy, but you will have various kinds of people in various positions. Some are very strong, and some may be very open-minded. So you've got a wide spectrum of people in Hinduism. And also, Hinduism is very open, very, very open, meaning you'll find that there are Hindus who will readily listen to things about Jesus Christ when they think that, okay, Jesus is just one of the many gods, or one of the many good people, one of the many good teachers. So you will have that openness as well from among the Hindus. Okay, I thought I heard a question. Mangi is raised. Okay, Mangi, you have a question? Okay, thank you, sir. You said that Avatar is a god coming in, one of the gods coming in the human form. There's the ones they call Babas, the Indian Babas. Can you please, are they considered as gods or they're just human, incarnate and they are seen as divine? Babas, okay, Babas. So what was your question, Mangi? Are they human or are they avatars? Is that what you mentioned? Avatars, yeah. Yes, sir. Yeah, I don't think so, yeah. So god, men, or religious men, men in some cases, even women, and there are a lot of others as well on the call who can, in the class who can speak to this, they are highly regarded, highly respected and are in some way a medium to god, through these spiritual leaders, gurus, babas, matas, women, spiritual leaders. Through them you're getting to god and so they're highly respected, highly treated with a lot of respect by Hindus. But to my understanding, they're not considered as avatars, not in the same class as Rama or Krishna. No, they are spiritual leaders, they're very highly respected and they are considered to be in a higher, say a higher spiritual level than the normal human, other humans. But they're not considered as avatars. They're considered as, you know, spiritual people, mediums through whom you can access god and learn god. That was your question, wasn't it? Are they avatars or not? Yes, sir, because people worship them and we've got a large Indian population here in South Africa and you see their pictures all over people worship them, put flowers on them, so does he. Yeah, yeah, so they're highly respected, they are, yeah, Anitha says like they're like pastors to Hindus. Maybe I don't think it depends, right? But see, Christians don't consider pastors as mediums to god. You know, okay, pastors, they will teach us and all of that. But every Christian, every believer can go directly to god and pray. But Hindus do hold these gurus in a much higher place as, like, through them they're accessing god. So they, you know, like you said, they worship them as means of worshiping god, right? But in the Christian faith, we don't worship our pastors or we don't put flowers around our pastors, pictures, we don't do those things, okay? Okay, all right, let's move on. So the main focus is now, when you and I have a chance to speak to somebody from the Hindu faith, what should we focus on? How do we communicate the uniqueness of Christ with somebody from the Hindu faith? Now what we must keep in mind is, you know, so we've kind of, we've outlined or just highlighted some of the main philosophies or perspectives that a typical Hindu will have, okay? So again, I was just saying that, you know, not everybody holds fast to all of these things, but generally we're saying this is their perspective. Of things. So how do we present Christ to them in a way that they can understand and not misunderstand? What are the points of, you know, what are the chances of them misunderstanding Jesus? You know, so when we talk about Jesus, sometimes, like I said, there will be people, Hindus, who readily accept whatever we say about Jesus. Yeah, you know, yes, Jesus is one of them. I will take a copy of the Bible. I'll put a picture of Jesus next to, you know, the picture of the rest of the gods they have. So from that sense, they're very welcoming. They'll be open to prayer. They'll be open to, you know, whatever we say from the Bible and so on. But the thing that they cannot, or very find it very difficult to understand and difficult to accept is, when we say Jesus is the only way. Because in their mind, they already have embraced many gods and goddesses. Right? So that's like a default way of thinking, which is God has come in many ways, many forms, and there are many expressions of God. And here we are. We want to present the Christ saying, Jesus is God who became man, and he is the only way to salvation. And that is a very difficult point, I'm speaking generally, for somebody from a Hindu philosophy, from a Hindu perspective, to accept, why should there be only one way? Because by default, they think or by default, they think that there are many ways to God. And God has to be so big. God is so big so that people can get to him through so many different ways and so many different means. That's one point of difficulty. The second challenge is, for us to deal with this whole issue of salvation by grace. That means because for the Hindu, by default, how do they think? If I do something wrong, I just have to do two times more good and I can, I can, you know, I will, I will, my good will outweigh my bad and I will eventually move up to the point where I can escape this cycle of reincarnation. So the thought process or the pattern of thinking is, in terms of works, I am working towards my salvation. And so I just have to do more good and I can do more good maybe later on in life when I'm old or so until then, even if I do evil, you know, I can make up for it. I will, whatever, you know, but the default thinking is in terms of works. And here we are presenting the Gospel saying, it's by grace, God forgives. So that's a challenging point to speak towards when you're speaking to somebody from a Hindu perspective, from the Hindu faith. And deeply rooted in that is the idea of every person is responsible for their own salvation. But here we're coming and saying, God provided salvation to somebody else because the Hindu is so connected to works. The Hindu pattern of thinking is so connected to works. It simply says salvation is your responsibility. There's no idea of, hey, it can be given to you as a gift. Somebody else can pay for it and you can benefit. It's your responsibility. The Christian faith, we are saying, somebody became our substitute, died for us, and we gain from that, we benefit from that. So not only is it not of works and it's of grace, but that grace is given to you because somebody did something for you. Okay. So again, that, you know, so we're trying to understand, look if somebody from the Hindu perspective is looking at the Christian faith, these are some of the challenges they're going to deal with or how to think through when they are trying to understand what we are saying. So now ultimately we know that it is the Holy Spirit that's going to open their eyes and help them understand Jesus. And many times it is an encounter, divine encounter, a supernatural encounter that is the best, what to say, the best testimony to what we are saying, right? Of course we can present the gospel the best we can, but it's not easy to, you know, address a totally different frame of reference, totally different pattern of thinking. It's not very easy. So the best way is when they encounter God in a powerful way, their lives are changed. Okay. But how do we still communicate the gospel to somebody from a Hindu faith? Right. So we start off by the basic things we agree, right? We agree, that is the Christian faith, the Hindu faith agrees that there is sin, there is evil, there is wrong. That means there is right and wrong. So there is sin, there is evil in the world. And while Bible does talk about Satan as a source of what has happened, here with the thinking in terms of works and reincarnation, right? So even when we talk about sin and evil, there is a little contrast that we need to keep in mind that the Hindu's thinking in terms of works and its man doing these things. And here we have this factor of sin and Satan being causes of suffering, okay? But starting with that point of sin and evil, we then, okay, I've talked about the contrast here, forgiveness. We then need to come into this whole space where we talk about relationship with God, right? God is holy, man is sinful. And no matter what we do, we cannot reach God. We have to pay for our own sin, right? Even one sin is sufficient to separate us from God. So even if we do many, many, many good works, we still have the sin to pay for, which keeps us away from God. And we talk about God reaching man through the person of Christ. And in a very loving way, we present, so when we talk about Christ, remember in their minds, they're going to think about many avatars. Yeah, they say, yeah, we also had 11 avatars. But when we present Christ, we need to highlight the fact that this incarnation of God we're talking about is unique, is sinless, is perfect, and he became the sufficient, one and only revelation of God. So we are lovingly contrasting Christ and drawing a distinction from between Christ and the Hindu thought of avatars, okay? Because we said in the Hindu mind avatars are humans. They make mistakes. They do all kinds of things. But in the Christian faith, the incarnation of God is perfect, is sinless, and there's a reason for that incarnation. And he fulfilled it in his one incarnation. So in a loving way, we contrast that. We don't want to judge or condemn the belief in avatars, but we want to highlight the distinction between Christ and avatars. And then we're talking about a personal relationship with God that the Christian faith brings to us freely by grace, because of what Christ did in contrast to this whole process of liberation and enlightenment, which comes through our own efforts. Right? So you're drawing a distinction that here is God through Christ because of what Christ did, giving us a free gift and an open invitation into a personal relationship with them, which starts here to now, as opposed to something that you're going to keep trying, keep trying to escape from this cycle of reincarnation through your works and eventually try to get one with God. So we contrast that. So look, this is the big difference. God is giving it to us as a free gift. And importantly, yes, in Christ transforms us versus we having to change ourselves. So in Hinduism, the emphasis, like I said, is on your responsibility. It means how do you self-actualize, how do you self-realize or self-discipline yourself, becoming a better person in the Christian faith? We're saying Jesus changes you. He makes us new creation. He empowers us to live a better life, a Christ-like life. He empowers us as opposed to, in Hinduism, I try to improve myself, whether it's through self-discipline or through self-realization or through some form of enlightenment. Again, this is contrast. So if we present the gospel highlighting, and of course, do this in a loving way, we're not going to do it in a judgmental or condemning way. But our goal is to help them see the difference. Look, there are stark contrasts between what the Christian faith is presenting to what Hinduism is presenting. And these are the differences. So you think about it, you ponder about it, you consider that. And what we're saying is very, very logical. When we say God is perfect, well, he has to be. Otherwise, he can't be God. Yeah, so this incarnation is perfect. He was sinless. And he expressed God to us. He revealed what God would do for us. Yeah, this is in contrast to what they would understand about avatars. So we present Christ, present the highlighted differences, and then give them the invitation to make a decision for Jesus. But as we are seeing here, yeah, so, okay, let me come to these comments here. So as we're seeing, God's word is going to say, as we're seeing here in India, okay, this is what I was going to say, is that the thing that impacts the Hindu really powerfully is a demonstration of God's power, supernatural. And in many cases, that is like the clincher, or that is like the point that really convinces them that Jesus is different. When they see the power of Jesus Christ in healing, in miracles and deliverance. But at the same time, what we're also observing is many times people come to get that blessing of healing or deliverance or a miracle. And then they go away. So it is therefore our responsibility as we present Christ, that we know the healing, the deliverance, the miracle is very important. But we need to explain that this Jesus who did the miracle is very different, and he's asking them for a commitment to him and him alone. So we have to emphasize that in a loving way, and help them understand the difference, okay. So I would like others just to add some thoughts. I know Tharon can speak to it. Tharon comes from a Hindu background, and he's accepted Jesus, and he's, so Tharon you want to share some of your own personal experience and your thoughts. And there might be others on the call, if you want to add it to this whole. Just to help us all, give us all a perspective of how best to share Christ with those from a Hindu background. Please feel free to share. Sure Pastor, I was just trying to relate to what you just said. When I came to Christ, in fact, I experienced that miracle of being healed, because I had this swine flu on the bed for five days. Doctors couldn't help, and I got healed with one prayer, and my dad and sister were just watching right beside. I accepted Christ, and I understood that he is the only way, but my dad and sister, they thought Christ is one other God who can heal like anyone else. Like a Baba or someone. So that line of thought, of uniqueness of Christ, is something more difficult to present for the Hindus. That is one aspect, and also there are so many types of Hinduism, like the classical ones who read the Vedas and the mythology, Upanishads and stuff. But the modern Hinduism is more towards the Babas and the way they interpret different challenges and the way they present. It's their intellect that actually attracts them. So that is one thing, and the major challenge, like if you ask a Hindu what's wrong with Christianity, why you don't accept, the kind of arguments that they present is unless we really go to the base of it, it's difficult to understand. Like the first thing they would say is Christianity is a colonizing religion. That's what they believe in. And also they say Christianity is morally inferior because they eat meat, they drink alcohol, they are neglecting the extended family, they try to live individually, live and live. And so they think it's morally inferior to be a Christian. It's more of a backward cast. And that's an interesting thought that I encountered when it comes to my family because if you take me as a Hindu, they're proud that they are a forward cast and then you become a backward cast and things like that. That's one thing. And they also think Christians are betrayers of their culture. They leave the entire heritage and try to adopt something which is Western. So tough challenges to present because that's their thought process. But I also had a very, very challenging encounter with argument with my sister. She thinks that if you pray hard enough to a rock, God can appear through the rock because your prayer is hard enough. It's more like a name and thinking God will do it this way. It's a sense of arrogance that is within which they don't realize. But they have very interesting arguments every time something new. And when you're listening to them directly, it sounds very deceptive. But if you ponder a little later, you know, this is not right. But very interesting arguments that they come up with. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Anybody else you want to share your experience in maybe your own personal journey of faith coming if you're from a Hindu background or you're encountering sharing Christ with somebody of the Hindu faith? Anyone? Yeah. So like Tharon was saying, there's a big broad wide spectrum of thinking in Hinduism. It's kind of almost like a universal religion meaning they embrace almost anything. It's like almost like what you make it to be in your thinking. But when we speak to them, I think we should just focus on presenting Christ as unique. This is who Jesus is. This is why he's different and let them think about it and let God deal with it. Ultimately, we cannot save them. We cannot change them. But it's God who has to touch their hearts and open their eyes. And so we do our best to present Jesus in a way that they see Jesus as very different from all the gods and goddesses and gurus and people that they revere. So we present Christ for the unique. This is why he's different and this is what the Christian faith is offering. And then people turn to Christ. Just in my own experience, I've seen that sometimes it's just you can't even explain. And I remember even during my school days and sharing Christ with Hindus and many of them accepted Christ. And it was not that we had some great arguments, but it was just God opening their heart, opening their eyes and touching them inside, that they came to faith in Christ and gave their life to Christ. And then there are the others who've had an encounter, who experienced something supernatural, a miracle that takes place and they come to faith in Christ. And then there are others who want to think through it logically. They want to understand, they want to see the difference and have the questions answered and then eventually make their commitment to Jesus. So we do have a wide spectrum of how they come to faith in Christ, whether it's, you know, you see God opening their hearts supernaturally, they see a miracle or it's a well thought out time, you know, they think through it and then they come to faith in Christ. So we have all three and we do our best in presenting Christ the way we should, okay? I'm going to move now to sharing Christ with the Muslim. Just get it started and then let's see, we have maybe just three minutes more, okay. Maybe we'll just take a break and then come back to this. Christopher, you have a question, maybe we can do that before we go for the break. Go ahead. Hi, yes, Pastor, I actually, I mean, just wanted to broadly, you know, ask your opinion about, you know, this, you know, but talking about, speaking about Christ and how it sort of, you know, relates to, you know, this idea of conversion, you know, converting from, you know, Hindu to Christian and, you know, it would apply also to people from other faiths, the conversion part. And where would there be some kind of a, you know, a distinction between the two, or even, you know, one-to-one scenario or, you know, or a one-to-a group scenario. And I think it probably has more relevance in the current time between India where, you know, the Hindu fundamentalist, you know, has, this phenomena has, you know, has grown stronger. So, in your experience and, you know, in some of the, some of the churches that you have, that APC has, what has been some of the experiences around, you know, this, you know, speaking about Christ and, you know, how it sort of, you know, gets, could be, could be construed as, you know, conversion. Yes, yes, we get some guidance from you on that. Sure. You've brought up a very important theme. So, what we are seeing now prevalent in the mind of Hindus, and not only in India, but I think this is all over the world, is this whole ill-will and ill-feeling towards Christians because this whole of holy shift conversion. So, when you start talking to somebody, you know, a Hindu about Jesus, the immediate thing that goes to the mind is, oh, he's trying to convert me and so on. And, you know, you're seeing this as keep, this whole mindset escalating. It wasn't there like, you know, maybe 30 years ago when many stopped and spoke to a Hindu, they would listen up to you, talk to them about Jesus. Today you speak to a Hindu about Jesus and they immediately think, oh, he's converting, he's trying to convert me. And it is very prevalent here in India, both in the cities and in towns, and it's kind of getting even into the villages. And globally, wherever Hindus are, because this kind of thing, this thought has spread that when a Christian comes to talk to you, he's trying to convert you. So, I think, so now in India, things are getting bad because the laws that people are trying to pass, these are anti-conversion laws, and what the attempt is being made is they're trying to just, you know, open it up so much saying that any form of inducement is a crime, right? So, telling somebody about heaven is a form of inducement and therefore it is a crime. Telling somebody about, you know, being healed or receiving blessing, any form of blessing can be construed as an inducement and therefore it is a crime. It's just, you know, you're trying to convert somebody. So, that's the law that's trying to, you know, the people are trying to pass here and so we have to be all the more careful. So, what do we do? What is our response? One is, we preach the gospel. We make it very clear that, look, you have to make the decision and it's your decision to follow the person of Christ and to read your Bible. So, that freedom every person has, it's an individual choice. Now, we're not asking you to quote-unquote change your religion, we're just giving you an invitation to follow the person of Christ and to read his, follow his teachings. So, we make it very clear that it's your choice. We are not in, you know, this is what Christ has and it's your choice to do this. So, it is challenging and, you know, where this is going to go as far as politically in India. We don't know. Yeah. So, there have been attacks on the churches in northern part of India and so on. But we just have to continue presenting Christ and letting people make the decision. Now, if people make the decision, it's got to be very clear that one, it is their choice to follow Christ. We are not inducing them in any way. Previously, the inducements used to be, oh, if you give them money, or if you give them medical aid, you do some social work, those are considered inducements. Now, talking about heaven, talking about healing, talking about forgiveness of sins are also trying to be classified as inducements. So, the best way to respond to that is, look, it's the individual's choice to believe in the person of Christ and to follow Christ. Why they do that, you know, it's their faith in Christ and if they've received a healing, if a prayer has been answered, if they've found meaning, if they've found peace, they've found joy, that is their choice. It's their personal experience and therefore they're making the choice to follow Christ. So, we have to leave it at, you know, the freedom of choice which cannot be taken away from an individual no matter what. So, we have to reposition that, you know, saying, look, you're not inducing, they're making the choice to follow Christ. I said, okay, Christopher, I mean, it's not a complete answer but a few thoughts. Yeah, maybe just really quick. I mean, this is just, I guess, across the board, not just specifically for EPC Church, but has, I mean, the success factors of, you know, having, you know, people of, well, not, not, not, not being Christians and accepting Jesus has, has that gone down over the last few years or has it, has it, has it, has it sort of kind of remain consistent? My, my observation, what's happening in India is it's, it's the main consistent, maybe it's on the increase. That's, there are more people coming to Christ, especially even if you're seeing what's happening in North India. A lot of people come into Christ. So, that's, there is a lot of persecution. There is, people are not holding back from coming to Christ. All right. So, let's go for our break. I know we're five minutes into our break time. I'll take 10 minutes and then we'll come back, get into talking a little bit about how do we speak to Muslims, then go into this next lesson on suffering. Okay. See you in 10 minutes. Thank you. Bye now.