 But they just go out of the bottom of it, and they haven't been able to find a way to have a government strong enough to stop the desertions. That's what Taylor told us this morning. I don't know quite how to approach this, Mike, so far as the Congress is concerned. Before we make up our mind, when we take it much further than you and McCormick, you know what I get into with discussions and so forth. On the other hand, while Taylor is here, and before he goes back, if we thought that we could get any help or any advice that we could follow, that we think would be worthy, I'd like to, I don't know whether they want to be exposed to him, but I'd like to be exposed to their thinking and their judgments. Do you have any feeling it would be better to let him go up before foreign relations and armed services, or would it be better just to have some of the representative ones of them here? You've got every conflict in the world from you to Russell Long and from Mendel Rivers to Todd Morgan. And in our own party, it's pretty well divided. Do you have any thinking about what would be the wisest thing to do there? If you're going to see anybody, you ought to see them all, and that is on those committees. And there's no reason why they can't be jointly to discuss the situation. Maybe some good would come out of it, but if you start picking out a selected few, then I think you're asking for trouble, because others would feel they've been left out and they'll get grumpy to put it mildly. Would that be, would your thought then be that it would be best to have, to ask Russell and Fulbright to have a joint hearing with him and do the same on the house side, and we'll have this all in the papers then. Well, if you, if you see a few that's going to get in the papers, I mean, how could you pick out the three or four or five and not expect it to leak? Well, we do reasonably well in these leadership meetings. Well, I mean, your judgment, you can see it, but if I do, do you think they leak much? Not the leadership meetings, but the meetings do. I mean, the joint was like we had on the Dominican Republic the other night. No. I thought it was pretty good. Very good, very good. I mean, it can look weird, it can look good, and of course, I don't know, it may, it may be, it may be the thing we want to do is let me talk to McCormick, and maybe the thing we want to do, and then I'll see what happens here tomorrow and the next day. He's going back about Saturday Sunday. Oh. And do you have any feeling about Taylor coming out? Is that going to be a little difficult for us? Oh, it will be a little difficult. I have more feeling about Lodge going in to tell you the truth because I don't think there's any comparison between the two. And Lodge is not well-loved on the Hill. No, but he is, and he's tied in somewhere with C.M. That was a big mistake. They like him better out there than anybody we've had, number one. And number two, my people tell me that he is less likely to get us in an Asian war than Taylor. That he is much more flexible and he does not, he does not politically, and he does not, he likes to talk it out rather than fight it out. And that's pretty appealing these days. And he's experienced and he has the language and they like him. And he gets along pretty well with the Catholics, pretty long with the Buddhists. And to start all over with a new man is pretty rough, sir. It has to be done, I guess. No, it doesn't. We can do anything that looks better. We've had Rusk and McNamara and Bobby Kennedy and all of them offered to go and Mack Bundy. But I don't believe any of them are in either Lodges or Taylor's class. I believe we have more militarism under Taylor, although he is a mild man and is not a militarist himself. I believe that he feels he would vote with them more than Lodge. Lodge is one that goes this economic stuff. You know that Bill's talking all the time. Of course, I guess I thought maybe Akin was against this little bit because he didn't like Lodge. Did that have something to do with his feeling, you think? He doesn't like Lodge. Fulbright kept shoving Lodge the other night and arguing with me on it. And demanding we kind of do it and I kind of indicated, all right, we'll try some of this if you want us to. And I could see Akin kind of not liking it. No, it runs pretty deep too. Before I let you go, you think about it. Don't talk to anybody, but just give your best thoughts and we'll talk tomorrow. Let me ask you this. Are you going to have a good deal of trouble without mine? I'm a key bill that allows him to be a Federal Aviation Administrator. Do you think it's in danger? No, I don't. I don't, but I think that there's anything we can do to let them know the difficulties we have and the facts. I'm just afraid, Mike, to turn over a billion dollar program to a person without any experience. And the only people that built airplanes in this country are military people. I came to, and when we started checking up, the Sadellen was scared, McNamara was scared, Commerce was scared. And they have to serve on this committee as a board of directors with about hundreds of millions of dollars in a plane going 2,250 miles an hour. The French and the British are way out in front of us. And we've got to utilize the know-how we have in the Air Force if we were to build it all. And I just can't take a school teacher or a lawyer or a banker to do this. I've got to have a man who's been doing it. McKee's been doing it all of his life and had hundreds of millions. I talked to Vance Hartke. They told me he was against it. He didn't have any real reason. He just said, well, they put in the act of 58. They didn't want a military man. I said, yes, I think that's true. I don't see the real wisdom of it, but if Congress wants it, I don't object to it. But in this instance, I need this man, and I wish they would make one exception. He always said, you're not going to have any trouble. Just kind of flighty. He said, he's against it, but you're not going to have any trouble. You've got all the votes and so on and so forth. I understand from some of the other senators that John Williams has worked up because the military is in several departments and that he doesn't like it. The military is one of our best sources of competent, honest people. We just don't have people who want to give up these big jobs and come in and work for 25,000, 30,000 a year. They just not many of them want to come in to Washington and turn themselves over to John Williams. Sure. He's digging. Yes. It looks like to me, though, a fellow that is prudent and careful and methodical and hell-raising as he is, would want a man with good background and experience. He's not a social worker. He's not a political, democratic political person. He's selected just purely because the Secretary of Treasury and Commerce and Defense think that he's the best equip. I don't know what party belongs to. Well, I think we have just a sense of something here that can be used. I think he's trying to find out the number of other military men in the same position who are getting their pensions and working for the government being allowed to do so. I don't think it runs very deep. I could be mistaken, but he just got onto this a couple of days ago and he's been doing some digging. And then you've got Pearson, who won't say much, a young who wants a roll-call boat on it. He may say a little something. Harkie, who you don't know where he stands at the time, and Monroe, and he was all out for him. And I promised Mike I'd try and bring it up today. I tried to work out a limitation that some of these people were opposed to him, and they wouldn't do it. Well, I said if that's the case, then we won't bring it up to do with this aid bill because I'm not setting aside the aid bill unless we can get something in the way of a time limitation and consider other matters. There's too much trouble on this bill. Are you in danger, any, on your aid bill? I don't think so, sir, but it hasn't started yet. So far, we've been lucky. I think our luck will hold, but you can't tell when something will happen. Is there anything you think I could do? I've talked to Harkie on the McKee thing to explain to him why. I guess he'd do no good to talk to William. No, no good to talk to Williams. Harkie is the weakest link in the chain anyway, so... Who? Is Pearson of Kansas against it, you say? Yeah, but he won't say much. And who else is against it besides Pearson and Harkie and Williams? Young. Steve Young? Yeah. He came around and said he wanted a roll-call boat, and there must be others who aren't saying anything just waiting. Do you know how Dirksen is? No, but I imagine everyone would come along. I'll inquire tomorrow. Do you have any feelings on the Dominican that you haven't told me about? No, the Dominican is the least of my troubles. Yes, it is. Me too. I just thought while I was talking that I'd... The only thing is I think that it might be, well, if you can, to get on the side of the angels, and the angels would be either Balakware or Bosch. And if you could restore the government under which this guy was elected and see if you can't work on something on that basis, spending the next elections. Bosch says he will not go back. I think it'd be a terrible mistake for him to go back because his people are real. The people around him have taken him over are bad people, Mike. What about Balakware? He won't take it. He won't run, I think. They tell me our people made a poll there before this happened two or three weeks before it happened. Sometime before it happened, I'm not sure. It might have been two or three months. It showed him about 60-odd percent at Barge 30. He doesn't want... No one wants the provisional government. I'm talking about a boy, a fellow named Garcia Cadoe, who was in Barge's cabinet and Balakare's cabinet, and might be acceptable to both of them for our provisional government. Come on, yo, and in there, out of the country? No, I don't think you'll get either of them out. And the main thing, they are not the worst ones. The main thing is you can get these hardcore communists out. That's what really broke up our deal. They got 5,000 in the three parties. They got about 100 real highly trained hardcore leaders. They fade in and fade out. When they need to, they come up to the top, and they stick their head above the water, and they stir up everything. Then they just fade out, and they come back. They do that in and out all the time, and they pretty well have Barge's ear and pretty well give them directions. We watch everything they do. Needless to say, we listen here and see everything they do, and we have pretty good control of it. But they use some of the papers on us. You've got people that are reporters down there that are coming in here that tell him, Barge and others they're going to lobby for him, and then they come down here representing some of the big papers. Take positions. And they have been very mislead or fellas don't know it. I can't tell them. But Herbert Matthews at the time is calling the signals on Latin America. He was in here 90 days ago. He thinks that you ought to have a Castro operation to never go in the house here. And he's got Ted Shields down there covering him. He's getting ready to go to Spain now. And he had us shooting in the other forces and sighting with the generals and all that when it just wasn't plain, wasn't true. The networks pretty well have the same problem. I have told them, and they've been a little more careful with it, but I've told them some of the things in Missouri. But the other night they had us, when the Brazilian general arrived, they gave him a salute. It was the airport 10 miles, and they had it on their prime time show. And the boy...