 and welcome to Cooper Union. Today we're looking at the UN General Assembly 75th opening week and we'll be looking at what's happening with human rights around the world. I'm very fortunate that on this opening day of the UN General Assembly, we're able to welcome the director of the New York office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, Craig. Thank you so much and welcome to Cooper Union. It's great to be here. Nice to see you again. What does it feel like in New York? I know usually this time of year, we'd all be excited except, of course, the people who live on the east side of New York. It's known sort of as the World Cup of Social Justice. What does it feel like now with COVID and what's really, why should the world know what's happening on the 75th anniversary of the UN General Assembly? Well, it's a perfect question at a perfect moment, Josh. I have to tell you, this is a very strange General Assembly this year. I'm a half a block from the United Nations building right now and normally this entire neighborhood for blocks and blocks and blocks is sealed off with heavy security and cement barriers and trucks blocking the streets and so on. And today is just another day because for the first time now in 75 years, today, this is the 75th anniversary of the United Nations and of the General Assembly, there's nobody in the building. So this year, it's going to be a very, very strange exercise. You can imagine all of the important issues that are on the agenda, but many of those discussions have actually been either postponed or canceled. Everything from counter-terrorism discussions and discussions around the sustainable development goals, reform of the General Assembly, even discussions on racial discrimination, on harmony with nature, a whole range of really essential issues have had to be pushed back because after all, the global pandemic is what it is and here in New York, we're still in a partial lockdown. So it's going to be a strange one, Josh. No, and it's one of those things. This is the time of year when heads of state come from all over the world, almost every NGO. We, the people come there to make sure that our voice is heard. So how are we coping with that and how are NGOs and civil society still participating around the UN General Assembly? Are things going virtual? And maybe you can share some insights on that. Yeah, I mean, the issue of the heads of state and government who are normally here speaking one by one in front of the General Assembly and that historic chamber, they will be participating this year virtually. They'll be submitting videos and feeds and so on from wherever they are around the world and so you don't have that diplomatic presence that's normally here. And I think one of the toughest tests is going to be exactly the participation of the public civil society NGOs because as it stands now, there is no NGO or civil society access to the General Assembly directly. Now, there may be some side events where civil society voices are heard virtually through Zoom and other media like that, but what they'll be missing is that access, that opportunity to have face-to-face contact to influence policy, to try to influence the resolutions that are being adopted in the General Assembly. And frankly, that's the piece I worry about the most and it's not just civil society, it's normally we have all of the independent human rights mechanisms of the UN who come here, who speak publicly, who engage with the delegations and who influence what's happening. And in a moment when human rights of all kinds are challenged all around the world, not having that direct interaction, those corridor conversations, those bilateral meetings, those points of access, that worries me quite a bit, I have to say. Yeah, no, I know this is the time where there's always the protest outside, so civil society gathers outside, they have the protest when their head of state is coming to raise awareness, because otherwise very few people keep track of all the different talks and who speaks. And then those side events at the church center, but also many side events inside in the basement of the UN. So it's a definite challenge, but I know civil society is very active. I know we're organizing the UN Sustainable Development Goals and Global Human Rights Annual Summit, it'll be the fifth annual, but yeah, it's then connecting with missions and we have a couple missions partnering on different panels. So it's a new beast, but I think it's important that the UN has actually been very responsible looking at the COVID crisis from a human rights perspective. Can you maybe share how the human rights framework is an asset as we're trying to combat this crisis? Because I know it hit New York, of course, so hard we watched it very much in March and April and May and June, our hearts were breaking here in Hawaii and of course it's still going on around the world with more surges in Europe right now, but what's the human rights approach and why is it so valuable as we're approaching this crisis? Yeah, it's been very difficult here. I mean, I have to see, I'm encouraged by how New York City and some other cities around the world have gotten back up on their feet after having been devastated. New York is one of those cities that was hardest hit and we were all locked in here for months at a time during a period of great fear and trepidation. And I think what we learned from this is that really 40 years of ignoring international human rights standards in the way we structure our economic systems, in the way we structure healthcare, in the way we structure our politics because what we've learned is one of the most important vectors for this virus is discrimination, is inequality. I mean, the human rights framework appears, is forced to appear at the center of anybody's analysis of this pandemic because we see who's hardest hit, who are the people who have been most affected and public health professionals will tell you that it is in the first instance, yes, older persons who are suffering from their own discrimination, marginalization, ageism and being sacrificed by public policies as if they matter less than the rest of society. We see it as people with preexisting health conditions, some of whom are persons with disabilities who also have been subjected to that kind of marginalization, exclusion and discrimination in violation of international human rights standards. But that third category is people of lower socioeconomic status, people who are living in poverty or in precarity, people who don't have the benefit of social distancing, people who either have to go to work or they don't eat, people who are on the front lines, who are after all caregivers, who are after all people who are working in the stores, keeping the food flowing and so on, they have been the hardest hit by that. And in countries like the United States, that socioeconomic status tracks very closely to ethnic and racial status. We see that it is people of color in this country who have been most devastated by the effects of the virus who've been hit the hardest, hit the most, suffered the highest fatality rates and illness rates and infection rates and so on. That all relates to a failure before the pandemic arrived to enforce human rights in our civil, political, economic, social or cultural systems in this country and in countries around the world. So those things, this idea of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that the job of governance is to assure freedom from fear and freedom from want without discrimination, that's where the failure has shown itself. And an economic system which is unable to provide healthcare as a human right to all people in the country that is unable to provide essential materials like masks and personal protection equipment and that medical equipment, all of those sorts of things is a system which has failed to deliver on the promises of the international human rights regime. I would just add to that, Josh, not only is the foundation for failure in this pandemic been laid for 40 years, 50 years because of neglecting human rights in those issues, the response has been very flawed as a result of neglecting serious human rights considerations about inequality, about discrimination and again, about the delivery of healthcare not as a commodity for sale to those who can afford it, not as a privilege for elites who are born into it but as a fundamental human rights to which we are all entitled just by virtue of being born human and without discrimination. Excellent points, Craig, especially you highlighting a civil and political rights as racism being a preexisting condition but also bringing up the points really of that makes me think of Roosevelt Island, just off there and the freedom of speech, freedom of worship, but freedom from fear and freedom from want, those four freedoms and that addressed to Congress absolutely crucial, those economic, social and cultural rights that were addressed by Roosevelt at that time but then also very important as you brought up the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Eleanor Roosevelt attending that meeting in San Francisco with those 42 NGOs pushing, understanding through the Great Depression how even today you can't talk about how you can combat the crisis or survive and thrive during this crisis when you're saying the first thing you have to do is wash your hands and there's no right to clean water in the US and you could see the situation that I know OHH has been involved with in Flint and other communities and then also the other important aspect of right to housing and the United States forgetting that economic, social and cultural rights are a significant element of human rights according to the Vienna conference are interconnected and indivisible and that we have to have all those and I think you really brought all of that together quite well and the other aspect is even older persons I know there's a convention coming around on that so we look at what's going on and you heard Anandati Roy talking about this portal the pandemic is a portal and how we'll move forward but I think you really bring up the point we have to think about equality, about equity and that's where human rights framework is so powerful that people have these rights and that's the role of government to guarantee those rights and provide those so we really appreciate you looking at that and maybe you can add a little more to those points Yeah, I mean I think it's a good time to ask these questions because as we said it's the 75th anniversary of the organization and the United Nations was not founded as a conference center or as just a place to consolidate the power of governments the United Nations was an idea and as you say Eleanor Roosevelt and others from this country were very much involved in designing the architecture of the organization around this idea that what had led to the horrors that the world had experienced before the establishment of the United Nations everything from world wars to a massive depression around the world to colonialism, to slavery, to institutionalized racial discrimination this was supposed to be a new idea that would address that that would say yes, everybody is entitled to health and education and housing and water and sanitation and fair trial and not to be abused by the police and not to be subjected to torture and to have a say in their government and all of these things were defined by the United Nations by the original vision of the United Nations as fundamental human rights not privilege but that's something that we are all entitled to and where there are disputes those disputes need to be resolved peacefully through international cooperation and under a framework of international law because remember, this human rights stuff is not just ethics or good feeling it's international law as a result of the work of the United Nations over the course of the last 75 years that's the plan but the reality that people in our world today are confronting is so far away from that plan and I think it's right that the pandemic has laid bare the degree to which we have moved away from that original vision of the United Nations that we have stripped the capacity of the state to deliver on economic and social rights to fight the massive inequalities that have now reached feudal proportions all around us to try to dismantle white supremacy in our structures and in our cultures to try to deal with gender inequality the continued dispossession and persecution of indigenous peoples these are all a part of the original idea but I fear that 75 years on we've actually been moving further away from this vision rather than closer to it it's a good point I mean in the UN Charter of course and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights what was significant in San Francisco is it did start with we the peoples and of course the UN of course is a gathering of governments but it is amazing the ability for civil society and people's movements to impact and change those global structures maybe you could share some ideas of some of the human rights movements around the world and how they've been able to have an impact at the global level and how maybe they connect with common challenges and then create campaigns together. Yeah I think that's such a crucial point you know I mean if the vision of the UN is going to be saved it will be saved by we the peoples it's not going to be saved by governments it's not going to be saved by corporations it's not going to be saved by experts it's going to be saved by the mobilization of people in specific movements and in broader social justice in human rights movements and you know to some degree that's always been the case even in the drafting of the Charter even in the drafting of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the voice of civil society the voices of people advocating on behalf of human rights actually influence the content of those documents and that has continued very much in the human rights part of the organization where you know voices of civil society have been intimately involved in the design of the human rights mechanisms those mechanisms that monitor human rights around the world human rights instruments the treaties, the declarations the guidelines and so on that much of that has grown out of civil society demands and the SDGs the Sustainable Development Goals themselves you know when that initiative started the draft of kind of an agenda for the entire world on how to deal with the problems of environment and climate and water and sanitation and health and housing and international cooperation all those sorts of things it started out as a very conservative vision it's only because a participatory process was adopted where millions of people for literally millions of people from around the world participated that you ended up with a very progressive human centered and ambitious agenda that says we're going to deal with economic and social and civil and political rights and the right to development we're going to deal with the environment we're going to deal with nature we're going to deal with all of these issues that may be sensitive to governments or governments may be reticent to make progress on but we're going to demand that and that's you know without that without the soul of the UN which is the voices of civil society of social movements of human rights movements of human rights defenders of land defenders of water defenders of indigenous defenders without them the UN becomes a bureaucratic nightmare frankly instead of the hope that the charter promises it could be and it's great that you brought up the sustainable development goals because I know I was there in Rio where they were saying we'd follow up on the millennium development goals and there are some important elements of sustainable development goals I've heard this behind first leave no one behind and of course human rights activists were very involved from Rio Plus 20 throughout the process and of course we're also commemorating the fifth anniversary on 25 September maybe is there anything going on to commemorate the 25 September adoption and I think we also kick off the decade of action yeah there'll be some conversations happening in the General Assembly as I mentioned in the beginning some of those are being postponed you know with the hope that there will be more control of the pandemic that will allow face-to-face meetings and more participation but we will see over the course of the next few weeks a number of conversations around that you mentioned an important event that you're involved in but there'll be some official events of the member states as well and as you say you know the decade the decade of action this idea that you know we are now five years into it we're not as far along as we need to be and we need to have some catalytic action to try to force all of the partners involved in these sustainable development goals to push this agenda forward we've been derailed to a certain degree by the events and not just the pandemic but the financial crisis that's come you know along with the pandemic that we've been expecting all along anyway the unrest that we see in a number of countries for failure to deliver on this vision but we really have to get that thing up and running we don't have much time left and you know it's fair to say that the issues that are addressed in the sustainable development goals like the human rights instruments are existential issues if we don't get a handle on climate change all of this just becomes an academic conversation it will undo any hope of realizing the other goals if we don't get a handle on inequalities under goal 10 of the sustainable development goals it will erode the hope of realizing those goals across the board even further and as you say the objective is to reach the furthest behind first not to just look at aggregates and say look how successful we are we are when millions and millions of people are left in poverty millions more in precarity millions more without their rights realized how can you call that a success not to mention the environmental degradation that we continue to suffer globally Excellent points and really you brought up some things that are quite crucial because the 23rd is also the anniversary of the first climate action summit where Ban Ki-moon had gone to Oceania he visited here and seen first hand how indigenous peoples in Pacific Islanders on the front lines of climate change and then of course last year that amazing climate action summit as well hosted by Antonio Gateros and he also came to Fiji into the Pacific as well as Special Operator on Human Rights and Environment Boyd came to Fiji to see where people are already moving and then of course it's important and I think you really raised it it is an existential threat right now the United States you have the highest air pollution in the world from the wildfires and you see firenados new terms coming up you see climate crisis and you were on the 15th anniversary of Katrina where I really think a lot of those economic, social and cultural rights and internally displaced peoples all those frameworks really did help people all that work of working on the elements and seeing how the whole world is in the same boat in a way the small blue planet and we recognize the fragility and that's why fundamental freedoms are a way to move forward Yeah I mean the whole world is in the same boat but some have not been given life vests and the water level is getting higher inside the boat every single day and you know it's trying to help to wake up those in positions of privilege who have the life vests and who knows helicopter is hovering above and making them realize that that time is running out I think that is the real challenge in all of this I mean I think if I'm encouraged by anything Josh it's not the official conferences the cops and so on that have proceeded around these issues but it is the mobilization of people young people of course but people from all walks of life now who have begun to realize and you know the real as you say existential threat and have begun to put pressure on government and international institutions and others to really act and I'm all for diplomacy I'm all for the use of international law but I also believe we've reached a point in history where the time is basically up and that means sometimes disruption civil disobedience sometimes that means mass action is the only way to wake up those who are asleep at the switch before it's too late for all of us and these global conferences including the General Assembly and so on you know they're an opportunity to shine a light on these threats to our society and on the vision, the positive vision that we want to realize for our world but they will only work if the pressure is kept on if the movements keep on the pressure and I'm very happy to say that with regard to the climate we are seeing those growth growth movements you know just last year we actually had a coming together of the let's say the international human rights movement and the international environmental movement who came together in a series of meetings to try to look at how to merge as you know the respective strengths and resources of those movements recognizing that climate change is a threat to every single human right guaranteed in the universe of declaration many are already losing their rights many have already lost their lives and so this imposes a positive obligation on every state member of the UN to take the steps necessary to address the climate crisis in order to protect those rights. I think that's actually a great point and that's usually how we do see the UN General Assembly it's an opportunity to organize and I did attend that meeting at NYU last year and that was a very important step because a lot of people move beyond polar bears and penguins to the indigenous peoples and who are impacted right now and I agree with you it's really besides an opportunity to organize human rights and that's what its strength is right? It's a shield to protect but it's also a star to guide us on how to move forward it's a floorboard of fundamental freedoms that no one should ever fall below but also a horizon we can aim for to make life on this earth as amazing as possible and so I really do see that point it's also the civil and political rights of the direct action when the governments do not listen that is why you do have to shut things down and one of my best memories of knowing you over the decades is flying in from Geneva and then going with you later that afternoon with a special rapporteur in extreme poverty and human rights to occupy Wall Street and that's one of the aspects that I really appreciate about many of the people that work at High Commissioner for Human Rights it's not a job it's a pursuit of justice and maybe you can highlight a little bit about the occupied Wall Street and maybe why that's even more relevant again today with the pandemic and some of those points connecting those two movements of the 99% demanding justice. Yeah I think it's true what you say you know if you peek behind the curtain in the United Nations particularly in the human rights office of the United Nations you'll find people like you find everywhere there will be people who are there for personal ambitions or affiliation with a particular government or an academic interest in the issues but the engine of these organizations has always been that core of people who are there frankly for ideological reasons who are there because they just can't tolerate injustice they really believe in human rights they really believe in inequality and they would be doing that work whether it was their career or not because they just have an intolerance for intolerance if I can put it that way and I think that really in every organization that is what makes the difference. I think occupy Wall Street was people view it as something that was a blip on the radar I think it was the beginning of something very important I mean that was a recognition by people that what was happening with the consolidation of power and wealth in all of our society over a period of four or five decades was needing us in a catastrophic direction that this tendency to move away from the vision of universal declaration that as we said guarantees water and sanitation and healthcare and housing and jobs and so on as a human right and into a vision that was all about moving authority and resources away from the public sector and the people and into the hands of large corporations and a smaller and smaller slice of wealthy elites in society that that approach was resulting in an undercutting of the full range of human rights not only was it undercutting those economic and social rights by privatization, de-gradulation, liberalization destruction of labor unions and labor rights. So it was definitely devastating economic and social rights but it was also devastating civil and political rights because what you had was an increasing capture of the levers of government and public decision making by a smaller and smaller and more wealthy and powerful elite. So what difference does it make if you cast a vote on polling day if the real policy decisions are being made by large corporations, wealthy individuals and the public action committees that they fund? That is that's a capture of the levers of government that are supposed to be there to guarantee we're human rights and increasingly are failing to do so. That was something that the people that occupy that you and I had great privilege I think to be present for understood earlier than many others. Now the problem is that none of the fundamentals that brought about the 2008 financial crisis that devastated people's rights around the world none of those fundamentals have been changed. We have still not moved into a system in most countries where economic and social rights are truly realized where civil and political rights are truly protected and we are headed for it seems to me inevitably a similar crisis. If we don't really turn up the heat as it were if we don't assert our demands for human rights civil, political, economic, social and cultural. And I think what they did influence very much you mentioned the special rapporteur on poverty a number of other international human rights mechanisms who have picked up on that demand on that message and are more and more integrating that into the work that human rights people are doing all around the world. But we've got a long way to go before we can even claim a modest amount of victory. We do and I think that brings up a great point. I think people could look at also the special rapporteur on human rights and environment. I mean special rapporteur in extreme poverty visit to the United States recently which of course sparked a response of withdrawing from the Human Rights Council and I know we only have a minute left but that's a great thing. I know we could meet again and maybe do a follow up after the UN General Assembly but the UN Human Rights Council started yesterday. I know there's a big topic there under agenda item number nine with the urgent debate followed. Could you briefly maybe share that and we'll talk about that in more detail at the next Cooper Union in two weeks. You know that really points to the link between civil society and the United Nations because there's a long history in the UN of for example African Americans, indigenous Americans and others bringing their human rights claims to the UN because they say, look this is not just US civil rights this is international human rights and we like any other people have a right to bring those things forward and so you saw through the years, you know Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, W.E.P. Du Bois, Ralph Abernathy, other African American leaders lots of indigenous leaders bringing their claims to the UN. Well that happened again after this series of racist I must say killings of unarmed African American men and women over the course of the last few years where a coalition of civil society groups from the US led by African American activists themselves brought a claim to the human rights council to take up this issue this year and the human rights council adopted a specific resolution and how it's gonna follow up on the issue of racism, white supremacy, police violence in the United States and elsewhere around the world and this is the first session now that is going to review where we are in progress in that regard and the High Commissioner will be reporting on that. Thank you so much Craig. This is Joshua Cooper with Cooper Union. This has been the United Nations General Assembly 75th opening week. And we thank you so much for coming and talking about what's happening with human rights around the world. We'll join you in two weeks and Mahalo, Malohi Mekapono, thank you so much. Thank you Josh, good luck with the show. All right, aloha.