 Some edits based on her feedback to us and then recast the other role to be someone who was a local actor in California Who was also born-blind and so we rewrote the role to be specific to him? So that was kind of our first our first two ventures working with artists of disabilities at the core of the creation and and inviting them to be on the creative team and tell us what to do in 2015 the same year that we went to La Jolla Playhouse We also did a large scale embers of called Saints tour and it was for us. I think stuck out as a as a catalyst for us in learning and failure and Being intentional about this work Saints tour was a part bus part walking tour that took place in Braddock, Pennsylvania which is about 45 minutes away and I was caught in this Between two worlds where I was told from an artistic perspective that we could not book a charter bus for this show Of course because the optics of a big expensive beautiful charter bus going through a blighted neighborhood It is not what we were going for and so I needed to book a school bus and at the time for varying reasons I could not find a school bus that was ADA accessible and so We had found ourselves in a situation where we had created a show that was Exclusive to a group of people that came to our shows all the time and found our space downtown to be perfectly acceptable and Created something that by its Nature was exclusive and it's the first time that we started asking the question. Who are we excluding when we do our shows and so we Just owned up to it and we told everyone that unfortunately if you are in a wheelchair You will not be able to come to this show. Please call us with any questions or thoughts or feedback And we set out to be more intentional in the future, which was all that we could do so Chalk that one up to a lesson one that felt really bad and So fast forward to 2016 and we were asked by the Pittsburgh cultural trust to create a show for kids with autism spectrum disorder as part of the Pittsburgh Children's Theater Festival and so We had a unique We were in a unique position here because we are not a presenting company We are producing company and we create our own work So we were doing a lot of I started at lead a lot of learning about sort of best practices around creating sensory friendly shows and they all assume because they need to that to show The way that it's been built is exclusive And so we need to add on these things to make it accommodating like a safe room or like Visual or social guide to prep people on the way give them fidgets raise the house lights and we thought well What if Since we're in control and we can make it ourselves We try to see what it's like to employ the concept of universal design in Theater making and make a piece that at its core the way that it's built is already inclusive So I don't need to make a change when someone with autism comes to the show It's for them and because it's designed with them in mind And there isn't anything that we could anticipate that a normal typical kid could not do that was built for these kids maybe it would be welcoming to everybody and So since we knew nothing about any of that and we didn't have the resources we need We learned from our previous mistakes and we brought people on board to tell us what to do And so that was arts for autism that was firefly and Rebecca covert who also presented lead this week and We hired an actor who also had autism who identified as a self-advocate and was not afraid to tell us what to do Or how she felt and that's Vanya who was sitting beside me and she became part of the creative team And so we set out over the course of six months. We would have a workshop week where we trained and Learned about autism spectrum disorders and the different ways that it manifests and how to reach kids through the arts And then we'd go away and we'd write a little bit and then we'd get together and we workshop some more And then we'd go away and we'd write a little bit and the end result was an enchanted forest that came to life for about two hours every day That kids could come to in time shifts And I would do my very best to see whether or not they were able to wait or not able to wait And I would get them into the forest as soon as humanly possible And they would explore it their own leisure and leave when they wanted to and it was built intentionally so that it was rewarding When you said yes to each barrier So it ranged from starting from the highest light level to going down to the lowest light level so that every time you accepted The challenge of moving into the next room. It was actually calmer and our designers made it in such a way that you could kind of control Your level of engagement meaning that the forest was alive and there were certain sounds in certain places But an example is that we had a log that was in the middle of the forest And there was a site specific area where sound was emanating from the log And so if you liked it you could get closer to it you could crawl within it And if you didn't like it there were many places in the forest that you could go And so the goal was not necessarily to be all things to all people But to have people who come in the door and they could find a pocket of the forest that made them feel comfortable And made them feel welcome with the overarching goal of having kids who are neurotypical and kids with autism spectrum disorders playing together in the forest Awesome very cool and Vanya, can you speak a little bit about your experience and involvement in some ways? Consulting and as well as performing in this Sure Gosh well part of I Suppose part of an important piece of this to know would be that this was actually my first time being in a professional production at all So that was a really interesting experience to be part of the development As well my first time ever Being in a professional production I wasn't really sure what to expect when I came in because Complete this was all completely new to me. I had been in other I had been a part of inclusion films before which is actually where Brick a lodge found how Brick a lodge found me was They had seen some of my Work with the inclusion film summer camps But I had never really been in an actual professional production with other neurotypical people And so it was in really sort of odd coming in because I wasn't sure where the boundaries were I wasn't sure like Where how far I could go and sing like no that will never work or Here's what would work instead, but As we got further into the writing and the production I became a lot more comfortable because and I think that Jackie and The director Tammy Tammy Dixon became a lot more comfortable in approaching me as well and asking me Does this aspect work are you made uncomfortable by this and it's also It's important to remember that I am autistic. Yes, but I do not represent the entire autistic community and so That was a bit of a challenge for me because I am just one small part of this huge diverse community and I'm not even a particularly Average part of the community I suppose I'm not necessarily a Person who displays the typical traits of autism and so I had to be very cognizant of For thinking for example, well, this doesn't bother me But what would say my three-year-old brother who was a lot more severely autistic than I am would think about this or this does Bother me, but is that just my thing or would it be a common problem? So It was a real balancing act going on, but I think that in the end I feel that It turned I feel that in the end I was very comfortable coming forward with with With my thoughts and feelings and I think that I Probably if anything I would want to have Spoken up more in the beginning, but overall I think that I Don't regret Any of the Things that I put forward I think that overall I I did a But but kind of we were sort of talking about this earlier too that it It's finding that balance of of when you know, you're Self-advocating and really moving forward and then also being welcomed by the artistic staff and sort of those questions being kind of sought out To you right so you're so in this experience. It was a little bit like I'm just sort of filling this out But as you got more comfortable because those questions were Ask and you you felt that this artistic staff was being supportive that you could Get a little more comfortable in voicing your opinion and and I think that's an important thing overall, right? It's just having a welcoming environment. Yes, I think that also part of it was that I Wasn't sure where the lines where the boundary of me as a performer ended and the boundary of me as Helping to develop the show Right began right right because I As a performer I have a responsibility to perform what's given to me But also as a developer I have a responsibility to help create that So that that is also really diff a really tricky sort of balancing act to have and also a balancing act in I would just think the immersive theater right because It's not as traditional In its own creation so that is an added Thing that that happens with with with just in the nature and context of of what you guys are creating Yeah, absolutely, and I should I should specify that in addition to being an immersive theater piece our process was devised So we created together. We didn't have any concept really We just had a goal for the show and then we gathered a team of people that we hoped would creatively contribute to that and then we would do different rehearsals and different Exercises and then little seeds of that over time created the foundation for it And it's interesting, you know in immersive theater and in the devised process It is a constant balancing act of where do where does my role as a performer and a contributor? end and begin and we find that as we get closer to opening, you know the Ranks of authority becomes more clear, you know, there's there's a lot of space to contribute whenever it's just the seeds Now as we get closer, we have to start making some decisions and we're open to input But there's only so many things that we can do that late in the game So it's certainly a balancing act for everybody cool And when you just in in terms of the broad experience you sort of touched on this But I wonder if you could talk a little bit more About how the how actually the performance was for you like once once I guess maybe you guys opened and it there was no longer the the sort of need to feel like I'm Collaborating or we are did you were you able to let go of that? idea that you're constantly sort of having to collaborate and then relax into I'm just now a performer in the show and I'm gonna just have this performance experience Definitely there was some of that definitely once everything was more finalized. It became a lot easier to just relax and Into the role of well now my role is to help guide these audience members and to connect with these audience members And that's what I'm doing But at the same time with immersive with immersive theater and especially with this piece It's constant. You're still even when once you've opened you're still constantly learning and changing things even after our Opening day we were still changing things the next day and we still had to make adjustments adjustments to the show just because Because the audience is such a huge part of this and also because this particular audience Has a lot of very unpredictable both good moments and bad moments There's just a constant. It's a constant conversation between the performers and the audience and there's constant adjustments That have to be made even while it's running right and Jackie, can you maybe speak a little bit more in terms of The theater's experience with this show and then also certainly and other work and other Work that you've done that has been inclusive what the audience engagement has been Especially maybe with this community When you're seeing audience that maybe has not seen a representation of Themselves or that that culture you talk a little bit more just in terms of what your experience has been with that Yeah, we the feedback that we get from our audience with our immersive pieces as opposed to our other our other programs is overwhelming We find that we get long emails from people sometimes a month after they've been to the show talking about in detail what their experience was like in this space and So and that presents its own challenge because if you know your funders want quality You know quantitative information and you've got tons of stories from people but no format to submit them that becomes a challenge as well so we We've become accustomed to us a different kind of feedback the thing that I think surprised us the most about the feedback that we got for This show was that we didn't have this audience before We had not done any sensory friendly programming. We had not done any outreach This was our very first venture and part of that was just relying on The trust and the festival to bring an audience with it because it was offering a whole showcase of shows that Parents could choose from which is great because throughout the festival. There wasn't just one day that was your day There were several days that you could do lots of things and it was okay If you couldn't get out the door today, but you can get out the door tomorrow So we were surprised to find that we filled 320 out of 324 possible slots when we had Basically no audience to speak of outside of our partnerships and the people that that brought other people to our door It was also very surprising once you know kind of once we turned on the forest The forest was just on and functioning and active with these different neighborhood Inhabitants and that was the way that we allowed kids who could only have a 15 minute experience And that was plenty for them up to kids who wanted to be there for 90 minutes Was a allow them to leave at their leisure and that was actually the role that Vanya end up ended up playing she was kind of the queen of the forest and You were told to go find her whenever you were ready to leave and so she was always there And so that became our way to still give them an end experience So they still got some kind of culminating Moment and they got a narrative in a beginning middle and end But it was based on what the kid wanted to do and the kids timing and not our timing And so that became very interesting in a really great moment for We were very excited that the way that people sort of gravitated toward roles in the rehearsal process meant that She got to be queen because that was a great moment I think for a lot of kids to be able to look at her and realize that they could be her if they wanted to And that was something that people thought was really great and parents gave us feedback about We had an actor named Gail Pazersky who had this great anecdote that She still cries out ever she talks about it and we all had different touching experiences from this show It's a very personal thing and what you see families and audience members go through It's a journey that you're taking together and it's intimate the entire time and you have to be listening the entire time and so we were overwhelmed in general by The feedback that families had the lack of programming and options that they have in general And so they're happy that you did anything at all and The experience that they had watching their children play or do something that they didn't think that they would do Or even make it 90 minutes in the forest when they haven't been more than 20 minutes anywhere in their entire lives is deeply moving thing so Gail's favorite story is how We had puppet characters We had found through a variety of betas and workshops that children had gravitated more easily to puppets than they did to people Particularly this community and so she played an alpaca that was very soft named Simon and It was the very first character that kids saw and there was a little girl who came through that was very timid but was Absolutely in love with Simon and so Gail went throughout the experience with you know This child hugging her arm basically for you know a solid hour and as the show went on and Simon went with her into the forest She just clutched more and more to this alpaca and eventually they got in a circle And they all sang and danced together in the forest and she got up and danced with Simon and There was a moment where the girl was fine and independent And so Gail stepped back to allow her to try to engage with other kids and the parents of the girl came over and just mouths to Gail thank you and She just heard it to cry and the parents were emotional you know the kind of experience that happened for many parents there was not something that they had had in other spaces and became very clear to us that this work if it's done intentionally even if you're Incredibly afraid that you're gonna have a Saints tour moment where you do something very stupid If you do it and you try Parents are just deeply moved by the fact that you're doing anything at all Which is the unfortunate state of affairs right now that you trying anything is applauded But we found that the reactions that we had to this particular show compared to our other immersives While they're always deeply moving for this particular community was especially meaningful So Vanya Can you talk a little bit? I Number one about how fun it was to be the queen and in terms of your experience Also, it may be a little bit more about the inclusive film project some of the other experience that you've had with that performing and you know Where do you kind of move from here? Do you have other you know goals or things that you are looking to do as a performer? so mentioned before What I mentioned before about inclusion films is that that's For those who don't know I don't know who knows or not. This is a a Inclusive film studio run out of California mainly Bakersfield, California is where the film school is and it's It's a studio mostly for People on the spectrum. Although there's also they also do accept other people with other disabilities and I specifically have attended their film camp for the third year running now Which is specifically for people on the spectrum and people with Down syndrome and those are the only diagnoses they take and The point of their film camp, which is a two week long-summer program is to give these people the opportunity to create a short film in the span of those two weeks and to learn about the Process of filmmaking and the movie making business and hopefully to eventually give these people a Launching point to have a career and in film or in the arts in some in some manner to give them connections if that's what they so choose to do and So I've been cast in a couple of those Those films so far and that's been a lot of fun And of course is where brick a lodge found me But other than that and welcome to here. I haven't really had any experience in the arts professionally I've always been artistic in general In various areas, but I haven't For example, I've never been published my writing's never been published. This is the only professional acting Performance I've been in That sort of thing. So I Don't know what my plans are from here. I'm hoping to actually intern for inclusion films in the future. So I'm hoping to Maybe do their entire summer camp circuit and work with them as a staff member And I'm hoping to go on to do more advocacy in the future In various areas, not just in the disability community but other than that, I Don't really have much Plans just because it's extremely difficult, especially for a young person for a young disabled person to Try to get into the arts Professionally Particularly with and this is a bit of a tangent, but for example, like I am on disability payment Disability benefits and so it's really difficult for me to try to be in the arts professionally at all because that would affect that Significantly and I can't afford to have that affected right so yeah So yeah, these are these are things that our community specifically sometimes has to deal with that Other artists are still trying to figure out so that there's a lot of other things going on I Would also like to talk Jackie about Because we were sort of talking about this the sort of broad learning experience that you've had and sort of where At times we start an initiative thinking that we have to be specific and and make it a disability engagement and yet we learn wow just by kind of Creating this opportunity. It actually opens up a much broader universal experience So can you talk a little bit about the radio play? Project that you guys do and sort of how you might have you kind of started a very specific initiative That was disability specific and and then ultimately learned There's much broader appeal to it. So yeah, absolutely a lot of our work Started with the things that I learned right here at lead which is thanks to GPAC sending me with a scholarship Three years ago And I went and I took all of the basic tracks because I felt like I knew nothing and I was terrified to even be here Because I didn't know what to do or how anything worked and I felt like everybody else already did But you've got the Pittsburgh mafia who made me feel better and told me that it was okay to not know and to just learn and So that's where it really started is with that support. One of the things that I learned about was sensory workshops and we have a 1940 style radio play format called midnight radio and it set up so that we actually tell our audience members You know close your eyes kick back and listen and enjoy and we do all of the sound effects live with Foley props And so you can sit there and you become the live studio audience Which is how you become Participatory, but we don't have to cast you in a role So if you don't want to be you know in an immersive theater piece, but you still want to be engaged You can come still sit in a seat like you're used to but still be part of the show and so we started doing these Sensory workshops where we would you know give you the Foley prop and allow you to recreate a scene and It occurred to us after a year of doing them that we didn't have to call them Sensory workshops we could just call them Foley workshops and anybody could come that you know to mark it specifically to a Certain community whenever lots of people could benefit from that It was actually not only cutting our audience But also ensuring that only those people came and that there was no audience integration And so we just started calling it a Foley workshop and it had sensory and tactile components to it And we started getting students We got we got lots more people who came and were interested in just what Foley was and how to use it and wanted to recreate a Scene and so then whenever they saw the show right after that they could actually hear the moment that they had already created and they could Remember oh, that right. Okay. There's the basketball. There's the squeaky shoes. Okay, we're in the gym I know what all these sounds are and I know what they came from and we experienced the same thing with welcome to here We did have a safe space that people could go to that was built into the show And we didn't have a lot of kids who had autism who used it But we did find that we needed it for lots of other things like parents who had babies and needed to change a diaper and couldn't make it to the bathroom or Somebody who just needed a moment to take a very personal phone call and of course we gave priority to people if they came in and They had autism and they needed a moment But we found that by creating these things and not necessarily saying this is only for this group of people This is something that lots of people need for a variety of reasons is a way that we found that is an interesting Incorporation of the concept of universal design and you know elevators help everybody and So we're trying to figure out what that looks like across all of our different programs and Trying to ask people what they want and how they want to be marketed to and what makes sense to them and Trying to keep in mind that we're not so much interested in a night That's a special night for a certain group of people to come to the theater, but we're interested in finding ways to Make choices that mean that everybody or most people can be invited and welcome and talk to all the other people who are there And not kind of be segregated into this Different audience section that only gets to do certain things or be with certain people or have certain moments and sort of speaking to that idea of universal design and in integration of Inclusion inclusion in general Specifically with Bricolage. Can you talk just a little more about how this is a affected the way you approach your work now and in terms of future and what your belief is in terms of how How you can use those concepts of universal design Especially be in the in the style of work that you do because you are Moving and you're traveling and you're you're in sometimes sites specific places How you can begin to use? that terminology and then the lesson of broader engagement just into your future work so yeah So one thing that we learned from welcome to here that will forever change the way that we approach immersive work is One of the moments that I think that we sat down with Vanya and she was like why are you doing it this way? I just don't understand why you're doing it this way and That is that previously our immersive pieces were a very Mathematical experience on the back end We know exactly where you are when you'll be there about how long that experience will take with a certain number of minutes of Variation and we have eyes in the sky at all times that are monitoring you and Everything has to be directly on time in order for that to work like the beautiful machine that it is There were two things that were different in this scenario One was that we were dealing with people who wanted to be on their own schedule Not just because they may have autism, but because they're children and you can't tell children Where to go or what to do or how long they should play with something and so we had to completely change everything and we We were on this grid system with the show where you know You were going to be in this room for five minutes And then you're going to go to the next thing and the the whispering willow was going to take you about three to five minutes We were pretty sure and it took us all of one beta test to realize that that was a mess and so we also had a moment with with Vanya where we had the script completed and Read through it did the table read and it's one of my favorite things that just endeared me to her When she was a little bit more comfortable in the process and she was like I thought that this was for people with autism spectrum disorders There are a lot of words in the script We were like well, yeah That's how you write a script and We had this back and forth and you know the end result was that if you you know It took a lot of killing our darling since throwing out our ego and Listening to what she was saying because she wasn't just speaking for herself She was speaking for the people that she knows she was speaking for her brothers who would come through and though You know she could experience our show just fine She knew that her brother would come in and not see anybody who was like him and hear all of these words and perhaps shut down And we didn't want that so we ended up with a character that was non-verbal That was met with rave reviews from parents and that was directly due to her feedback We ended up throwing out the grid approach all together and I'm genuinely curious to see what next year's immersive will be Will it be a grid experience? Will it be something that can be timed but also has an untimed component that you can do at your own leisure? It's a completely different way of building it and it makes complete sense and seems like a dumb moment in retrospect But when you're in it, you know it seemed like a dumb moment for her When you're in it and you've always approached it that way and that's the story of this right? We're set in our our ways of approach and our ego gets in the way and we're not listening enough And so we took that note in a very big way And we we've extended it to a lot of our other programs And we're trying to think now when we do everything we ask the question who am I excluding so who can't participate in that? What is the barrier is it within me and my resources right now to remove that barrier? Or is it just up to me to own the fact that it is a barrier and make sure that people know and then direct them to a Program that they can come to right and in terms of that in exclusive or Being thinking who am I excluding and that comes into performers as well, too so I think the lessons learned by integrating new perform with a disability can be Hopefully used in the future to in ways that you may not even imagine now So just another quick question for both of you And I think we've sort of asked this with most of the interviews is What advice would you give to performing arts organizations? specifically in In ways of including artists with disabilities and making that accommodation and and the rewards of that and then also if you want to speak in terms of Institutionally some of the challenges and things that that you may have overcome or you may have thought would be there would be challenges, but yet You know, maybe they're maybe maybe there were And and Vanya, too, it just as a performer and based on this experience if you have Any ideas or advice that you would like to to share for organizations? I suppose that I The most important advice would really just be to reiterate what's been already been said throughout the day, which is ask and listen because really if you're going to be creating a piece for a specific community or if you're going to be having people from a specific community on in your production then You need to then you need to ask that community. What do you need? What do you want? Because like Jackie was saying often. It's really not obvious at all to you as an outsider To me it was so obvious that If you're creating a piece for people on the spectrum, you should In and it's supposed to be inclusive. You should include ways for not completely non-verbal people to interact and to Limit your reliance on language that was so obvious to me that I didn't even think to mention it So either of them before the script was actually written But as we learned that is not obvious at all to someone who's used to writing scripts And that's what they do so Really just communication between you and the community that you're working with and working for is the key To making something that someone will feel included in and will really be able to participate in And the same for the same goes for when you're including people with disabilities on on your production like on your team Because the people at Bricolage really tried to work with me and The first night I came in we sat down and I had a long talk with the entire team about my needs and what how I would Things that maybe wouldn't be obvious as differences in processing and mental processing or differences in how I receive information But very important to me as someone who Were who was going to be working for them Because we had that long conversation I felt a lot more comfortable being able to express my own needs throughout the product throughout the production and So again like communication with your performers with the people who are who you're working with and making sure that like They are Comfortable telling you what what they need from you in order to give you what you want Yeah, absolutely ask and listen Don't just placate listen Actually hear what they're saying and ask yourself. Why am I doing things the way that I'm doing them? Where did this practice come from? And why do I continue it in spite of feedback that I continue to get that it isn't working or isn't reaching certain people Just for a little bit of context because I know when I first came to lead I thought well How can these people afford to do this and how much time do they have? Brick a lodge is a company that is about the five hundred thousand dollar budget range and we have six full-time staff members And so we can't do everything ourselves And it's okay to not know where to start and it's okay to not know how to do it or to get it wrong the first couple of times there is a very supportive community that is out there there are people who are eager to help and Give you feedback and to make your the place that is close to them the arts place that is close to them a place That is for them and they will tell you what they want and what they need and they will be very patient and Lovely and they will generously donate their time to you to tell you what you're messing up and all you have to do is listen and Actually implement it instead of just sitting on the information And if you're lucky enough to be in a position of power And you have control in your organization Do everything you can to remove every little piece of red tape that you possibly can the reason that brick lodge run from a Place where we had absolutely zero Outreach and zero initiatives in this area to three years later having all of our programs have a Component from audio description all the way to ASL to sensory workshops to you know Programs that are based on this and actually creative collaborate creatively collaborating with people with disabilities To immersive guides who can are one-on-one companions who will meet whatever your personal Bucket of needs is whenever you come through whatever it is We have somebody who will greet you at the door and make sure that you have a successful experience The way that we got there in three years is by getting rid of all of the red tape That was humanly possible and just being honest with ourselves about what we were doing right and what we weren't doing right Great awesome. Thank you so much for sharing and I want to open it up for questions I know it's we're getting close to the end of the day and brains are fried, but yeah love to hear some Hi, I don't really have a question per se But I wanted to ask Vanya if it's if it's not too rude of a question to ask Would you mind sharing your age with us? I'm 18 you're 18 Well, I just want to say there's a few times when you when you were speaking and you I think you said I you know I only have one professional acting credit I only have one professional writing credit to to really own that and that that's a huge success for any 18 year old to have So That's that's certainly the start of a bright future and I and I hope you know that. Thank you other questions Tiffany we have one down How's left well first of all this is Vanessa from the trust again, and I Am just so impressed by this entire project and I knew about it from the onset and Even read the social story that you guys created around it But just to hear the background of what happened it just It's makes me wildly Proud to be a part of this community here with the two of you. So, thanks Thanks for that. And my question is On average, how long did people stay in the forest and then to follow that up? Did you have any Children or or their family members with multiple disabilities? So Another disability on top of being on the autism spectrum Yeah, absolutely Sorry, the first there were two questions. One was multiple disabilities And oh, how long did kids stay in the forest? So we had hoped that it would be a 30-minute experience I think our shortest adventure took 20 minutes and our longest adventures We had to actually come up with a protocol to get kids out of the forest without them realizing that we were making them Leave the forest Which was usually Queen. Oh, yeah coming up and just having a conversation that just happened to lead to the end of the play And so We were very pleased that we had multiple parents who came to us and said My kid hasn't been 90 minutes anywhere ever And this is our first time that we've been able to just sit and relax in the forest and just you know they could just watch them play like they were at a playground and Those were some of the most meaningful ones for us We did have a kid come through who was six years old and He was blind and he has some sensory sensitivities And so we had a phone call with the mother in advance to see what we could do and we had Piloted our concept of an immersive companion Because immersive theater since it is so specific and personal it isn't as easy as just having one audio Describer, you know it starts at a different time for everybody and because it's such a usually highly sensory based experience There are a multitude of barriers that could occur for you And so we had tested it out during Saints tour to see whether or not a sort of a personal audio Describer who could go through the event with you would be successful and it was So we sort of piloted it We did a rough draft on one of our friends of the theater who's with us today Brian Rutherford over there Who kindly went through the forest like a child? And we had our audio describer Marianne Graziano who is a rock star Go through and practice on him so that whenever Tommy came He was able to go through the forest and she was ready and already knew what to describe and knew what some Some possible barriers were and so that was the first time that we had successfully employed our idea of an immersive companion And I don't know how many people we would be able to accommodate in that way That's something that I'm interested in testing and seeing But we were very excited that we had done the work the year before to be able to make it successful this year Brian do you want to say anything about that? No, it's great. It's great that they opened it up to a bigger window than just the one the one sensibility and what not and it was awesome and it was great to actually Circle back. I went back. I was planning on going on my own without a describer and the fact that they decided to open it up and Then I later got back to them and how did it go? What would have anything how did you like it having like my feedback and what I thought would work for him? And that was great And we did have a few kids who came who also were in a wheelchair But as our space is ADA accessible, you know it we had dealt with that and cross that barrier before so it didn't Really present much of a barrier for us Any other questions? So I think now I think we're just sort of going to transition into kind of a wrap-up. So thank you guys for hanging out Not sure we're oh She didn't have to leave so Christine and I are going to begin this wrap-up portion Christina you were comfortable with the chair so Tiffany, I guess if you could kind of help us a little bit with kind of going through some of the post-it notes and just sort of reading out some of the responses that That have come through the day and then allow us to sort of wrap up what these These ideas are great happy to do that. You all had some really great thoughts. So thank you for that the little cluster that Was about insights Let's see sorry if I'm not in the camera shot here. Well One was design and accessibility don't have to be in conflict I also think that design can be the solution to accessibility issues. So that's an insight Finding the real on the spectrum between pity and inspiration another great insight When disability is Something the common denominator i.e. studio artist residencies then disability fades into the background and the art practice moves to the foreground Great one Let's see one to one to one to one Each artist you help can grow exponentially absolutely Listening happens with many senses great and working on being inclusive will cause lots of missteps But must keep the pendulum moving forward great. So those were our groups of sort of insights Let's see Couple other things that I think were were probably insights also Need need for open discussion about disability aesthetics Great one disability disabled arts is profitable and should be marketed as such Accessibility should be part of a basic customer service and Institutional artists driven development of a new cannon changing the stories on stage great Actions that were coming out of the day. Is this helpful? Do you want me to pause? Okay, all right actions that were coming out of the day Advocacy with alliance for artists communities to further move residencies for artists to further move or create Residencies for artists with disabilities. Absolutely. That's one for all of us Always ask the artist what he or she or they prefers for accommodations Collaborations are critical and inclusive collaborations are imperative Go to action steps and then finally this was sort of the list of questions that we're still out there a Couple that are let's see a couple general ones and then we're a couple that are kind of specific to Vermont Studio Center One is let's see the non-specific ones are as providers of arts programming Are we learning about the populations that we are serving if so how deeply? And I think we've had a lot of examples of that today that we're we're starting to get deeper But we can always go more deeply As arts providers, how are we seeking out these individuals with disabilities who are not fortunate enough to have the arts in Their lives as audience members or otherwise. How are we cultivating outsider outlier artists? Another question is how do public spaces typically get accessibility wrong? I think we've all seen many examples of that Another question regarding artists residencies. Is it better to have an inclusive? limited residency or a separate residency for artists with disabilities and inclusive integrated residency or a Separate artist one for artists with disabilities, and I think that's a good question that we've touched on here For Vermont Studio Center Fund that their creative access fellowship enriched the mission of the organization who else has seen that happening to their organizations who else has seen accessibility related things really enhance enhance the mission of their organization and For Vermont Studio Center. How do you address barriers that exist for people with disabilities in the application process? Which I think also applies to grants and other things like that So lots of good questions and Christine what are your thoughts in terms of like themes for the day to me it was I think I Mean and for me if you the whole purpose of today was really kind of how we at this conference can begin to Go beyond just from the house and into how do we get our stages? How do we get our galleries? How do we get? Those those other that creation of art Accessible more accessible and more inclusive and To me what really stuck out was the idea of really getting to know the artist. How do we go about finding those artists? How do we make? And I think it does take a little bit of action from a performing arts center and From the the arbiters of that art to really make that effort And that it's not just something that happens once but how does it happen again and again and again? and That also there are artists with disabilities that are out there and they are creating work in a variety of different ways So it's just making that effort to To find and build those relationships I do think there's a lot of resources in this room That we can build upon that we can rely on each other if we have questions when we have question I'm going to say when we have questions because I'm going to assume that those of us in this room are going to take some Of these things that we've discussed today back to our respective Organizations and figure out how we can implement them because one of the things that that's I think really important Is that we don't leave this conversation in the room That we really take steps even if they're baby steps one, you know one or two actionable items That are going to make a difference in your organizations and start to create that see change Just even if it's a shift in thinking if you go back to your organization and say Hey, are we you know have we reached out to any artists with disabilities? Or have we thought about having someone with a disability on our creative staff? You know just to start to open up ideas about that perspective of disability I to me that's the most important thing because so often would David and I Do so many of these types of things and so often people say yes We have these great conversations and we're all so jazzed even though we're exhausted because we've all been here for a week And our heads are full of these amazing ideas And then we go back and our desk is looks like this and we've got a 5,000 emails in our inbox And then we just forget everything because we're so overwhelmed with the 57 jobs that we You know we the 57 different hats we wear with our one job So I think if there's a way that we can sort of clear all that out of our minds and go okay I'm we're gonna make this a priority even if it's something small. That's a step forward So I'm sitting down because I was gonna stay away, but then I realized that I All right So one thing that my ADD brain does well is it pulls out themes universal themes to things and What I was hearing today was I'm Talking with each other But one of the things that I also heard was and and it struck me especially was something that Vanya said was Developing trust that communication develops trust because as Barack was saying There's a level of vulnerability especially for artists artists I think when our ass Because I'm not one I see you all differently, right? I see the courage you have in Sharing what is inside you in your art, right? But every time we are talking about artists with disabilities and I have this conversation with artists with disabilities all the time is They are listening very Carefully when you are invited to work with them to see whether you are genuinely Interested in them or whether you are hoping to tap into another stream of funding by having them as a prop right and so What this comes down to is authenticity and credibility you I'm I don't want anyone to walk out of this room saying yeah I'll have a couple of extras or you know I like that concept of the guy without the hand being a zombie or a pirate we can do that Right. I don't want you to walk out of the room with that. I want you to walk out of the room with I want this voice this perspective to be Not just respected but celebrated and valued right you know They're getting ready for the art experiences that we have this week and getting ready for this day I Came in with ideas of how it was going to happen But everything became so much more nuanced along the way our four performers for Thursday night all had Incredibly different ways of working Incredibly different concerns from coconut water to Wearing a ducky hat to you know Getting a room with two beds and a rolled-in shower Which until that moment I did not know was available in the hotel where we had booked everyone right? it it you know It required so much Hospitality like Ryan was saying a hospitality industry and a desire to make It a smooth and pleasant experience and I think what and there was you know, we Worked really hard to let people know we wanted them to come for themselves Not to be the representative of Black artists with disabilities or to be the single representative of people who use wheelchairs You know, I mean we wanted people to come and be themselves So there is a level of tokenism that is possible in this and so though it come away with hey I like you as a person and I want to listen to what you have to say and make you welcome here for who you are Which is really how we should probably approach everyone in the world, right? But that is what I've learned from all of this is that you This is hard work, but it's been the best work You know One of the things I mean I think if you if you look at it from the perspective putting of putting the art first Yeah, but it's gonna put you way ahead of the game if you because when you deal with An I'm not let's say a non-disabled actor, right? You have a company manager who sets all that up and there are going to be actors who have specific concerns They don't have they may not have anything to do with access requirements or they may But they may just be requirements of that particular artist But you you know, you have to sort of look at it in the set What is in the best service of the art what's in the best service of the art is Making sure that that artist is functioning at optimal level so they can make the best art there they know how to make and And I think if we look at it that way then then we're sort of erasing all of the the The categorizations and somebody said David and I were Facilitating a panel with casting directors a While a few months ago and someone said and I wanted to say this before and working with deaf actors And I don't think DJ is still here. No, he had to leave to get his flight But deaf actors, you know, they they they do face Issues that other disabled actors don't face because a lot of a lot of the pushback that they receive is is Funding is money. Oh, it's cost too much to have rehearsal interpreters It costs too much to have interpreters for auditions and and it's not an unreasonable request for a deaf actor to ask For an interpreter and a qualified interpreter that doesn't mean an interpreter who interpret meet interprets meetings That means that theatrical interpreter who knows how to accurately interpret Auditions for deaf actors, which I think DJ started to speak about briefly And one of the casting directors sitting on that panel just had a light bulb moment She said I don't understand why it's such a big deal when we have a musical theater audition We think nothing of hiring in a company is for the entire day and they come to his place for 90 seconds And then they are doing nothing for five minutes and they play for another 90 seconds And they do nothing for five minutes, but we don't even buy it bad and eyelash when we are when we're Building in that expense and or a budget. Why don't we why don't we afford the same consideration to deaf actors? So I think if we level the playing field by Thinking of it as what is going to make the artists that we're bringing in What's going to make it conducive for them to do the best work they can do and so that we can see what we're They're capable of doing That that makes it a lot easier to sort of move forward in our thinking. I If it's okay with you all I wanted to see if yeah Thoughts in the room, especially anyone who hasn't had a chance to ask anything or say anything today And then I will just say too. I'm kind of curious how Betty and Jessica feel about the day And so and their thoughts on this whole thing. So just just Let me know if you want to say anything Anybody else want to suggest I want to have say something here I don't know why I'm always saying something, but I actually I'm glad you mentioned Betty and Jessica because one of my questions was I'm new to going to leads. This is my first time here and this is great But I don't know enough about what the follow-up opportunities are through leads and maybe they or somebody else could speak to that a little bit one thing in Particularly, I would love to have out of today is maybe out of the entire week if there's any note-taking that has happened Sort of universally that has given like the websites that people have mentioned or Some of the spelling of some of the things that I've been unfamiliar with You know a quick Google couldn't find them because I've probably heard it wrong And then is there a Facebook page for leads that people Can post to that can share through or some other way of doing that so That would be great information for me to have The captioning that happens today is already on howl around so there's actually already a transcript there And then it will be cleaned up also, but do y'all want to talk about the list-serving things or And and just so you know on howl around this is being is gonna be available as a yeah Okay, so this is Betty Segal from the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts and thank you so much for all participating and being such amazing speakers and shares of fabulous experiences and information We do if you attend lead One of the benefits and perks of attending lead is that you get to participate on a list-serve that we've run for many years It's a list-serve where we throw out questions to one another our peers For guidance advice and information So you have to come to lead to be eligible to get on the list-serve though So this is just my big plug to come to Austin, Texas In a year 2017 Generally though just since you asked for an opinion and I think I can speak for Jessica And I both we really feel very strongly About the impact that these kinds of conversations can have on us as a community We also really strongly believe and I think this is true when we look at the values of Kennedy himself of courage and service And there are many more that I could list that art Good art is what we are looking for good art Changes and shapes Society and we need to be open to good art Regardless of where it comes from Who it comes from or why it's coming out? So thank you guys for helping us identify that one of the things that that just came out for me in the day too is just thinking about The ways I sort of too started in lead and like learning about all the kind of Audience access ways and accommodations and things and then to take it to this level the way the relationships are built in the depth of the Experience and the way we move through the world with the artists that we're working with if we're for doing things To present them or to host them or to have them in our companies is So much deeper and more transformative and I think for an institution for the individuals working Together for all of the humans connecting around it. I that's another powerful point in all this I think I'm gonna say that about you in particular Barack because I want to we hired a We hired one of my colleagues who is a multi-disciplinary artist who's focusing on her music right now to sort of stage manage our performance on Thursday night and Last night at two o'clock in the morning. I was texting her because we We texted two o'clock in the morning and I looked at it just now and she said to me She said make sure that she said to me. Thank you for Hiring me to stage manage because I learned more than I gave back and I already know 48 hours later that this has upped my art more than I thought it could it was that Harry Potter Voldemort one moment And that was a very brief day right and So I'm just saying that when we were talking about the one question that I heard here is how has this impacted these organizations? Every single organization and they're not all here that we talked to about participating in this day Every single arts manager we spoke to said Working with an artist with a disability didn't matter what it was changed them their organization their work and It was like an exponential leap because of that depth that Tiffany was just speaking I also think it changes the Changes the interaction with the audience access when you're working with disabled artists I think it changes the conversation it opens up the conversation in in ways that People aren't even aware of because then they're thinking they're looking at the entire picture This is Barak um I would appreciate not doing a chance to not forget your name Sarah Because it's kind of talks to the notion of what happens next. I love I saw Sarah and I think Brandon But Brandon was talking about the ways in which they're they are creating learning communities And I thought that is so incredible You know like in each community in terms what lead offers that they stimulate within their own this kind of learning community And I'm fascinated by that idea I'm fascinated with how I can go back to Chicago and then stimulate that even with those who have not necessarily been a part of this conference Because I think that that is the continuation of the conversation So I want to affirm that I just wanted that felt like a shine of light on this notion of the learning community and building that as Continue conversation and then one of the things that I always deeply desire because I'm so much into networks is that in This room there are those who've talked those who share their names But I feel like I haven't had the opportunity for anyone to go around the room And I will I don't know if we have time But I love that because I'm not necessarily connected to a listserv or da-da-da or elite I'm just wondering if there's any opportunity for people just if they want to to share who they are and where they're from Well, you know, that's a I this is can I ask a very quick question because one of our goals today was to There are people doing this work and you guys have been doing it for decades We want to build their national network, right? And we wanted to have this conversation be the beginning, but I have had no brain space to figure out what's happening next or how we will build the network or what shape it will be and Nor do I particularly want to do that I'm personally myself because I don't know if I I'm not qualified to do it So my question is For you and you don't have to answer it now because we're all tired But we can post something we can use Google Docs we can find a format to share Information with you and if you would like us to share your contact information you can let us know and What I am hoping we'll find a way to get out to you people and get the word out because don't we have most email addresses Tiffany Think so if you did not sort of register either with the Kennedy Center or with my organization Let me know but I think we have most folks, but I do I do love to suggest in the quick go around the room I think that would be a good good use of our time. Is that okay? Yeah, I'm totally cool with that Well, I already spoke but Esther Grimm the executive director of three arts. I'm Gina Rathall I am also with three arts. I'm the manager of operations and development Make sure you hold up the mic right to your mouth. I know it's counterintuitive, but you need to Okay I'm Jocelyn Rosak. I come for the performance side of Theater singing acting and dancing, but I'm looking to get more into perhaps the Management side of arts working with people with disabilities community engagement So this was a perfect way to come and start to learn about those issues today. So it was really helpful for me today Thank you. Where are you from? Oh, yes, I'm based here in Pittsburgh. Thank you Benji Blanco, I'm the new creative arts manager at Achieva, which is a local nonprofit that provides services and Advocacy for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities. I just moved back to Pittsburgh I've been gone for about five years. So Pittsburgh people come talk to me at Chieva has open positions. It's a wonderful organization I'm Jesse Ryan. I'm the manager of education and community programs at the Pittsburgh Symphony I'm Vanya Runsi. I Am a disabled performer a here in Pittsburgh Jackie Baker brick lodge production company in Pittsburgh David Billowitz performing artist Pittsburgh Betty Siegel director of VSA and accessibility at the John F Kennedy Center for the performing arts in Washington, D.C. Jessica Swanson manager of accessibility at the Kennedy Center in DC My name is Elizabeth Hercetti, and I'm with the Children's Museum of Pittsburgh. I am Caitlyn Scaff I am the assistant operations director for prime stage theater here in Pittsburgh Boring Nocturne director of arts and disability Ireland Nicole Remer and I'm the executive director of Sweetwater Center for the arts about 10 miles up the river from here Hi, my name is Sarah Coren. I'm from Raleigh, North Carolina I work for the city of Raleigh, and I'm the arts grant coordinator Hello, I'm Karina Coyman. I am based here in Pittsburgh, and I am The art studio coordinator at the Children's Museum of Pittsburgh Rebecca Torres artist and founder and director of backbones And I'm Ryan Walsh former development director and writing program director at Vermont Studio Center I just moved to Pittsburgh this week. I'm just a personal assistant Just What's your name? My name is Christina Saugato. I work for Pittsburgh Ballet Theater I'm their director of education and community engagement I'm Vanessa Braun and direct all of the accessibility programs here at the Pittsburgh Cultural Trust We have Schaefer I'm the accessibility and inclusion coordinator at the Children's Museum of Pittsburgh Brian Rutherford, and I'm an Accessibility peer here in Pittsburgh. Hi everyone. My name is Kayla, and I work for Dog and Pony, DC And I'm the Apprent and I'm an apprentice with Dog and Pony in DC. Hi. I'm Daniel Ellison. I'm from Durham, North Carolina And I teach at Duke University a course on legal issues for the performing arts And I'm chair of the Durham Cultural Advisory Board Hi, I'm Kristen link and I am the director of education and accessibility for city theater company here in Pittsburgh Hi, I'm Claire Drobot. I'm the director of new play development. I'm also from city theater in Pittsburgh I'm Reagan Linton actor writer performer currently based in Bozeman, Montana, but kind of all over the place Hi, everyone. I'm Erica Cuenca. I'm the associate artistic director at off-the-wall productions Which is in Carnegie about seven miles from Pittsburgh. Hi. I'm Sarah McCown I am the managing director at off-the-wall with Erica down in Carnegie There have been quite a few people who have also left that are not from Pittsburgh believe it or not But they but there have been quite a few that have left because to catch flights and things like that We actually started the day with like 25 started Monday with like 25 people registered and as of yesterday It was 60. So I think that is showing that there's a critical mass of interest Yeah, I was I mean my Thought was this that idea of the pendulum and I really feel like there's this there's a Pendulum sort of shift in in terms of authenticity when it comes to disability specifically in casting and I think also And in terms of other Inclusive ways that we're we're engaging artists and so I hope The conversation as we said continues to move forward and that as I guess DJ and Beth We're saying that the pendulum has shifted enough and even if it begins to kind of push back in a different direction that we've gone far enough that That we're not gonna go back too far that we're gonna continue to move in a forward direction I'm gonna interrupt interrupt and introduce myself because I missed the I missed the round Sorry, I'm Sarah Z. I'm the director of the Three Rivers Arts Festival and Festival Management here in Pittsburgh slash coffee girl Coffee savior, we will call you so I You know, I'd be a five minutes for questions Or summing thoughts actually because I'm not so sure if we have any quest I mean if anybody has a question your brains are not mush. I am so impressed but What do you guys think? I just want to reiterate. I just want to thank you all for staying Okay, absolutely long day Thank you all for staying but just to reiterate please Use let's use each other as resources. Honestly. I mean David and I are here. We didn't Give you our email or our website, but It's on we'll get everything everything. Yeah I mean, I would just encourage all of us to use each other because you heard so I mean the whole point of today was to hear some of the best practices models of what's going on and I I think I speak for everybody who came up and spoke today about their Experiences that they would probably welcome people who have questions saying okay We're we were interested in what you're doing at Brick a lodge Can you can you sort of walk us through the process? You know, and that's it's the one to one to one to one Is is what's gonna make the change? Even if you're a big organization I want to stress that too if you're a large organization and your job title doesn't fit into Necessarily what we've been talking about today. There are things you can do to sort of help that conversation along at your institution Reagan head. Oh, yeah, I just I just From a perspective as an artist. I just want to say thank you Pittsburgh, thank you Pittsburgh Cultural Art Trust. Thank you lead up to this point I feel like, you know, there was the convening at the Lark But really there is no national or international convening of this sort particularly for artists with disabilities to have these conversations and collaborate and I it's a Pittsburgh all of you and keep yeah moving that pendulum forward and may I simply say That these two people made this day, right without them And their knowledge and their expertise and this is what they do So don't forget about them call them talk to them You know the Alliance for Inclusion and the Arts is exactly that and you need to take advantage of this expertise and talent and Frankly You guys like you scare me. You're so good. So you guys, you know, I mean, don't Don't give us all the credit. I think absolutely. I think it was it was it was coming from you guys and and really wanting to To collaborate and and and really bring this conversation forward So again, thanks so much to Pittsburgh Cultural Trust and and also obviously the leadership that lead to allow this day to happen Yeah, and I wanted to bring Vanessa back up as she was so much It was really Anne and Vanessa sitting in rooms having meetings over many months having phone calls I'm happy to be part of their team, but it really two of them. I'm so so proud. Thank you so much I'm gonna really quickly One more time acknowledge Pittsburgh Cultural Trust Yes, Kennedy Center all of the partners who made this possible FISA Foundation Pennsylvania Council on the Arts NEA Really important conversation and really most importantly all of you as you know, everyone who participates in these conversations That's that's what these are all about. So thank you for coming. I Think that's it. Are we good and we're done?