 then Someone joined in and they don't know how to fucking count So it just didn't work, but that's alright. That's fine. It's four notes And you just had to stay in tune not even in tune just in tempo and rhythm. And so I was like With a delay on the call, I think that really I think this trying to do something all at the same time really really Really goes to show that there actually is a delay on discord calls. You just don't notice it when you're talking I don't know. We might just have a fucking Yoko Ono here. Who's breaking shit up So that's fine. I liked it. It was a good idea. I Think it highlights the greatest thing about the movie. Wait, what? The music I Didn't say that. Is that what your opinion is? That would be bad. What's wrong with that? I've already I will watch them flower and blossom Next five Yeah, all right, what are we alive? There is it there is a chat coming in Under said Elden Ring. Why do you say Elden Ring? Do I title this wrong? Oh shit? I don't think so Elderly laying the right ring a complete breakdown discussion of the Elden Ring. No, what's great is that? I'll have to finish it If it was um if it was what Robert Rodriguez and all the the Disney people if they did Batman Then the Batman's theme song would just be Batman bat No, you're forgetting the V Man Man it had you have to come in like groups of free End on the man. No, no, it works better with with four with four Every time it was out of sync in a different way. Yeah, that's funny Batman the bat and now the german version Is in some Oh That would be funny Um, hello everybody Welcome to efap number 176. I believe Today we're discussing a little movie that came out a little movie about a little man Cape flying around good It's pretty nice. I will say yeah, not many people have heard of this one. So I thought it would be a neat thing to cover Um, we told you all to watch it 10 weeks ago Because that's how long it's been out this um Uh, that's that's it. That's all I got my interest on covering invincible Oh Is that got capes in it? I'm sorry. It's not a movie though that It could be if you're like just added it all together. Yeah and cut out a few scenes make it a little shorter I wonder how long the runtime would be But anyway, the we've gathered some um internet intellectuals to discuss Whether this film is a film or not Uh, that's that's what you guys are here for I'm sure of it. But is it cinema? Yeah, it's what's Something interesting is that this movie has that it has the really prominent yet And by in by an incredible co-in I don't know how incredible it is But if I in a very I think a pretty substantive coincidence amount Uh level I have I I've been going through do you guys know the band the moody blues? No I know because of the simpsons and that's it Oh, I didn't know they had I didn't know the simpsons talked about them For you am I insane or is Is the part where they're in vegas and hobo says like he's looking around all these people trying to kill him And he goes ah the moody blues. There's some two people One was like cold-hearted homo ditching his wife while ancient dad runs for his life That sounds that's yeah, that I that sounds like something I I'm I'm blanking on that episode, but I vaguely remember they're a very poetic band They're probably parodying the song called the word Which is like the prequel song to bomb which is a great song. They have an incredible harmony that band Um, they have a song called a simple game And it's very similar it has bits in there that's very similar to like the batman theme Or they go do do do Oh, so Batman ripped off the moody blues, huh? Um, not the worst thing to rip off, but Uh, what a great band. What a great band. I think you know what else sounds like the batman theme the imperial march It does a bit quite a bit Yeah, the first was the same two notes That's the um The new version they're coming out with in disney I mean the disco part of the empire's new facility Yeah, I Yeah, slow slow versions of the imperial march if you put it over the batman. Yeah, I think it will work really really well I think so Yeah, uh, well you want that main part the um Um He Yeah, did you just call the empire's fucking theme music? Oh, so I went on the simpson's wiki to look up the uh the moody blues And it says that uh, they performed in las vegas where they helped attack homer simpson and ned flanders For dishonoring their marriage vows. They struggled not to speak in rhyme Yeah, because I like that. I like that. You see something like after the first slide, this is the takes of red And blue and white, but we decide who the sword interrupts it goes Can the poems it's arse whooping time at the well of just because I want fatty This is Yeah Um I see no reason not the simpson's we're here to talk about the bloody moose I see no reason not to delve into the into the movie And so the way this this format will work because we slightly change it everyone's not well here and they're depending on what we're talking about Is that we'll probably go wait actually, you know what? Uh unprecedented Quality meme I'll put that on the screen You have to put that on otherwise In a I've been there's been a mutiny and I have been couped and that's that is not I am no longer in charge. Okay, free you do it Oh, so I'm just it's gonna be Well, I realize anything I could say about the structure is more so you should probably say it because you know what it is I'm not 100% sure what it is so, yeah, I guess uh This film was a little bit trickier. I think to go through then um other films that we typically go through in chronological order because I think that we're still going to but um, there may be points where We we should just like jump very far ahead to make things extremely clear because There's a little mystery story And as the film is progressing, there's a lot of information that you don't have access to yet There's information that you do have an information you don't have but the whole picture ain't quite there yet and uh, having rewatched the film twice Um, I've seen it three times Oh Yeah Having watched the film twice I will say that Count to two I know I mean we're buckling guys. This is going to be a train wreck. Um I think that watching it a second time personally was incredibly helpful in terms of distilling my thoughts So i'm going to try to go through uh, have us go through in chronological order Because that way we can talk about each scene on its own. I think I think if we don't do that we're going to miss a lot of Uh stuff that we can talk about Um, but if necessary if it starts to get confusing I'll just basically try and explain as much as possible Uh that we that is relevant so that we can start thinking about how everything works, but I guess um Before we do that we should probably get a an idea of how everybody Felt about the movie right to left meme You mean idea My god, we're we're unprecedented today Yeah, um It's bold. So um, uh, what was my opinion of this film? Well, you see, um, I went through um, actually before watching this I went through all the um Batman films um before this one barring bvs because god damn i've been exposed to that train wreck enough Oh the osmea, um, so it was an interesting experience because A lot of them didn't quite age as well as I thought they were going to um in the sense that The burton batman films. He's barely even in it at all. Um, the shoemaker ones Actually tim burton is burly in them Yes, yes Um, I would uh, so batman is barely in the tim burton ones It's kind of it feels like burton was very much more interested in telling stories about the villains and had to Kind of include batman in there because he was in the title um, the shoemaker ones I think um, well Well, obviously batman and robin is a masterpiece. So I will not be uh, just just um, I'll not be smearing that masterpiece at any point But with batman forever, it feels like There was a night There were some ideas for whether we're going to take bruce's character But they just Uh, they didn't have the skill to pull it off or they just didn't have the freedom to do it because of the studio so that Kind of uh, ended up in an awkward spot to say the least Um, and the nolan films I think they did finally focus on bruce But there was still it still wasn't quite that special batman mix that I personally Really like like they were getting a little bit closer, but there was still a lot That I wasn't quite jiving with well with this film I really enjoyed it. Um, I felt like I was getting close I feel like if we haven't gotten there at the very least we are extremely close to the to the special Blend of batman that I like. It's a detective story um, it's film noir, um I really like um batman's um morality in this. I really enjoy a lot of the character work Um in this I think it's very thematically strong. I've only seen it the one time though. So um, there's a lot of stuff in here that I'm still I'm not entirely sure how how well it's going to hold up on repeat viewings So this is going to be an interesting one for me Um, but like just uh one time viewing I just I was I was pretty pretty impressed with it So that that's my impression of the film rags I am pretty mixed on this movie and I can see myself going Either above or below a five based on the way that this conversation plays out um I enjoyed watching it in theaters for the most part. I really appreciate this movie a great deal and I'm glad it exists And I'm happy that we got this sort of take on batman and this You know this version of him and the world that he's in um But I it didn't captivate me. I don't feel very strongly about it Um, it just sort it seems it seems like a really mixed affair Uh, I feel like for everything I like there's something that I would change or didn't quite like or didn't go far enough Uh, so I'm not Yeah, I'm I'm uh, I guess we'll sort of see what happens over the course of this e-fap in terms of what I walk away with um but Moodle Yes Yeah, I That's me. It's a yes from metal Yes, yes out of 10. Uh, no, I I like the setting. I like the more Like gritty broody style like very dark. I found that to be pretty cool Uh, I was like did all the tech stuff was nice to see it was nice to see a superhero movie That didn't have any multi-verse bullshit in it We just had a normal villain with things I can understand without destroying a whole universe. That was nice Uh Yeah, I think it was pretty solid The watching experience for me was weird But that's a me thing because I watched the movie but I was never super into it But not because I thought it was bad I still don't know why I don't know if I it's very tantric Oh, yeah, I was trying to figure out if that's because of the movie or if I just didn't Really want to watch a movie that night. I don't know Maybe just had to watch it because we covered it and I wanted to talk about it Or it's because of the movie because it's just So much things happening. I don't know. It was it was weird for me Because after I was done watching it was like, yeah, I think it was all right Even good But now I'm just gonna go home and go to sleep. So I don't know it was weird for me It was uh Weird watching experience But I think overall like I think it's pretty solid. I would say Like a poo Like a poo like a can can sometimes get those loose Oh, I thought you're gonna say like a can to poo and I'm like, yeah, yeah Uh, when I first saw it, I was like holy mondoleum the production values are so not only Good but unique and and and striking. Oh Just the that dem visuals and soundtrack. I was having to do the treat Um and by the time I had finished it. I was like, huh That was a long movie which I don't typically feel it's not it's not that common And I I think that was indicative of something and the more that I have thought about this film The less I have found to uh praise in the writing compared to where I started and um Another problem I've had since the beginning is that it hasn't Struck a chord with me really much at all. There's not It didn't super duper appeal to me on the field hisms And I've been trying to figure out why I don't know if we'll get there today on exactly as to why But my I said this yesterday on Friday night tights. I think uh, I would probably give it a high score But it just didn't do much for me personally. I don't know if uh, that'll change as we discuss it But um, I I think that um, you know, we got we got a lot to talk about. Um, what wants to talk about? Jay Hello um, I thought it was pretty cool. Um, I was Very impressed with the action scenes even though I do think there were some flaws in them. They were executed in this very visceral way. Um, Batman would take hits. Um, and While I think that they were a bit too lenient on what they let him survive it was very clear that he was a man in this fight rather than some kind of Uh magic god who could just avoid, you know, He was he was standing on the ground with the rest of them throwing punches like everyone else was he was just very good at it. Um I was uh impressed with all of the performances like thoroughly impressed. I don't think that was a um A performance that I wouldn't describe as at least very good from a major actor, you know There was some cameo parts where I was like, hmm Oh, but for the for the major performances You guys know what I'm referring to Tony probably, um But for all the major performances, I was thoroughly impressed. Um There was um, there was some action scene one. Sorry. There was one action scene I didn't like the car chase I felt was just shot in a way that I found it difficult to tell Where everything was which I think is incredibly important for a chase scene is to know just where the players are Well, what's interesting about the car scene is that it's it's really just a it's really just someone just Took a camera through a typical commute through Dallas. It's cheating Yeah then we um I thought the characters were all pretty good. Um well characterized. Um, I was particularly impressed with um this film transition of bruce He was a unique take on the character at least for um, you know, the cinematic ones that I've seen I don't know so much about the comic ones or um cartoon ones, but uh, I've never seen a bruce who it seems this incapable of Putting up a like a public face Um, this bruce is very like both uninterested and seemingly unable to put up a public appearance Um, I think this might be a world where a lot of people actually suspect that he's batman for the kind of person that he is Um, and I find that a really interesting take on him and I was I found it very involving Uh, I was very interested in his character and his relationship with some of the other characters Particularly alfred even though that's sort of short and sweet. They only share a few scenes in this film I really buy their relationship and I I like it um, the plot Was interesting. It was very complex and I'll say that it passed my smell test on a first viewing But I am very receptive to the idea that it's actually just a fucking garbled mess that makes no sense at all um Because it it's got a lot of moving parts that honestly, um even As I was watching the film. I was like, yeah, I'm not sure if all this works or not I'm just I I'm struggling to keep track of all the moving parts well enough to uh To know and it's not like I was confused as to what was going on It's just that I didn't I couldn't keep it all in my mind clearly enough to comprehend whether or not it made sense Yeah, um The thing that was shakiest to me was the riddler like he the resources that he had access to and everything that he knew Uh, was the first thing that made my smell test go. Maybe this is pushing it a little far But I'm not confident on that the plot was too complex me to get in one viewing I think um But yeah, um, I've everyone else been saying that they thought it was like, yeah, this is good stuff but I didn't find it involving I Uh, didn't have that problem. They found it very involving. I was very on board with this film Uh from beginning to end. That's my little little two cents All right, you know what capital you go first All right Well, let let's I I will say I am thankful that I got to go towards the end. So now I can Space my opinion on all of your opinions I thought it was all right It was pretty okay. It's a good I I really enjoyed the first half the first half gave me big, you know, kind of like david pinchers seven Zodiac detective story vibes I'm a big fan of detective mysteries if I had to pick one genre. That's my favorite. It'd probably be that uh, the movie starts to unravel around what I imagined was the halfway point and By the final act whatever you want to call it. Um Really a lot of things started to unravel. I I would probably Be leaning towards like a six out of ten There's a lot of things I really appreciated visually And you know the soundtrack and everything was very compelling. It was very strong I wasn't bored even though it was a very Long movie except for towards the end. There are a couple sequences that I felt like they could have just cut because they didn't add much but I think the writing is a mixed bag to say the very least and We'll talk all about it because every time I think about something I liked in that movie I I think about oh, well, then But then they kind of did this thing and that kind of undermined it and they keep going back and forth So it's it's it's a big hefty mix of the good and the bad for me six out of ten Oh boy, all right I need to turn off the music so I concentrate Um, so I really like this film. It appeals to me um, Batman is like Basically up there with Daredevil is like my favorite superhero. I uh, I really like Batman and This film is interesting in that it is It it contains elements of Batman that I feel have often been Underexplored in the live action films while also exploring aspects of Batman that we haven't seen as much before in general in terms of like deviations from what you typically expect um I think Actually before I talk about the production is Fantastic, I feel like that's the least content. Like everybody agrees the film looks amazing The soundtrack is fantastic. There are a lot of just downright inspired cinematography choices um, I think the acting is great all around um Robert Patterson's performance is I think I think the best way to describe it would be like understated um But but at the same time there are so many moments when you And instantly identify the shifts And the demeanor the shifts in based on, you know, uh things that he's learned things he finds out emotional responses Um, but I guess I want to get into that too deep. Um I think that the theme is very strong and comes through uh throughout the film. I think that the character writing um We'll need to talk about that a bit. I think um Uh, I really like it but Oh god. Oh, jeez. Oh god. We we we we we got to talk about it I didn't agree to that So So when I when I watched the film the first time around Um, you might remember on the the couch helper said I liked it But I need to think about it the reason why I felt that way was because I just got the impression like Thinking about when you when you're watching like a miss So the thing that I really like about this film is that it is a detective story. Batman is a detective We don't look at that side of what he does Um in a lot of the films and in this film it is the primary focus There is a mystery that needs to be unraveled and he spends a lot of time working with jim in the suit Very little bruce wane by comparison how much batman there is which I think was on purpose as we'll we'll start to talk about um Trying to unravel a mystery now the first time around I think it can be very difficult To keep track of all of the elements because there are a lot of moving parts. There are a lot of moving parts There are a lot of names Many of which even if you're like familiar with uh, like batman stuff There'll be ones where it's like you kind of start to lose track Uh, because we've got like a lot of important players Um, and of course, you know depending on how information is presented to you what clues or hints that you see early on It's hard when you're watching a movie the first time around to know exactly how all of those clues are going to become Relevance, so I think you lose, you know things just slip out of your mind Second time around because you know exactly what's going to happen You can start to notice things you can notice in really cool ways how elements were set up How some of the riddler's clues foreshadow Um, what's to come how the riddler's clues in general um Make a lot of sense in terms of where they lead But you can also start to notice how we get to each next sequence You can start to see what pieces are really important in terms of pushing the characters closer to unraveling the mystery um And you know what some of those pieces um There there is a key word that I think will dominate this discussion convenience but We'll we'll see I am I am unsure at this point. Um, how I where I would put this film um But I do really like it and that's that's that's my ramble I don't think anyone here mentioned Where because there of course there is of course going to be a point in the film for each of us for the supplies But no one mentioned where they cried in this movie What Interesting observation. I think one thing I wanted to clarify from after what jay had said I was um gripped throughout The problem was none of it got to my heart as hard as it is to explain what I'm trying to say there I was very much paying attention, but um, and I think I said this to rags, but there was mainly one part Um, that got me close Got me got me close. I was like I was like oh Okay All right That's that scene then we're sorry It was interesting when we talked and you brought it up like there was that one part And then we both said it at the same time because it was the exact same part of both of this. Yeah The thing is that I think uh, this film is very plot focused Like it's it's it's mostly plot focused. Um, we have an important character moment, but there is a big focus on the mystery um, now of course that poses a problem if the mystery Isn't great You've dedicated a lot of time to something that isn't going to get you I guess as many points as uh focusing more on the character Moments and of course plot and character can happen at the same time But uh, there there is a lot less bruce Wayne in this film and a lot more batman, which I do think was on purpose I think so too. They think like explicitly kind of mentioned it. Oh, yeah I guess I guess something I would say about the film going forward is Despite the issues that we may end up talking about I got the distinct impression after watching it the second time around that it was very deliberately written um, like very deliberately written that um Everything that happened or like the the plot beats and character payoffs every everything was thought about um When it was put to the page, but nevertheless There may be some issues that we need to talk about Well, then but I suppose Uh, I figure yeah, I figure we we ought to go through in chronological order Um, otherwise, I think we're just going to be jumping all over the place um So the film starts with uh, someone looking through some binoculars into the maz office But the maz name is don mitchell jr. So we'll just call him mitchell Um, it's halloween. We see some a little jack-o-lantern. There's a kid wearing like a ninja outfit There's some heavy breathing Now, I guess uh There was some heavy breathing. All right, just say it. It was it was quite labored Is a random kind of cinema All the nickbeards watching the movie That's just how they just how they breathe. I'm a big fan of film. I was like, oh, that's pull dano breathing. I can I can sense it I recognize those breaths Really? No, you say that exact sentence again, but with breasts I remember those exact breaths and the sound of those breaths Some ladies have distinctive breasts Here we can distinctive noise Oh my bit quiet. Uh-oh every time I just hold it every time it's going up on my phone. Okay. Well, yeah, but that doesn't help everybody else Okay, well, we can boost you if we need to use out Hopefully that's all right. Do some heavy breathing and we'll get it good on you Oh, that I know that that spring's breathing. I'd know that anywhere. Oh, yeah Was it raining during that thing? Because if so, it's a bit wet. It was free's breast. Oh, no, it was anyway He was raining throughout the film Birds don't have breasts Yeah, I get worried because every time I turn up the mic just too much It blows everybody's ears out once I cross a certain line. So is this okay? Or do you get cross that line? Do you need it louder? I feel like it has to be alright at this point because you I think you're louder than everyone else now. So chat you better not lie Okay, why are the fringy? No, no, it's fine to me because I'm worried. I'm gonna blow over these ear balls If you don't know, he's had chats here. I'll look after him. Don't worry How will you look after them? You can't be everywhere all at once Batman taught me that just the one place speaking of balls I need to take a break for just a second. I'll be right back. Um Oh, wow. Just Batman He abandons. There's not really much. So the next We we follow that up. We're inside the the house of the mayor And uh, he's watching the news. He's watching some really pertinent information getting conveyed on the tv now. I know about all of you but at first When I saw that I was like, are we really doing like the tv news on Reveals really important information that we need to know um but The fact that it was contextualized as this is the mayor watching his Mayoral debate I was like, oh, okay Like I feel it's it's uh, it's the trope that's often talked about right the news reel or Just some news at the beginning of the film that just conveys to you all of the super duper important information that you need to know um But I got I appreciated that it was like contextualized in universe Um speaking of which can you remind me what is said there because when I saw this last night in the theater They forgot to turn the lights off for the really like five minutes of the movie Wow And so people had to go run out and try to like hey can you turn the lights off? So someone ran out and then about five minutes into the movie. They made the lights even brighter And then everyone groaned and then eventually another two or three minutes later They finally turned it off and everyone clapped Uh, so I don't actually remember much of the first like sorry minutes of the movie. So the first 45 minutes No, five minutes. Oh five minutes. Well, so basically it's uh, the the broad strokes of the debate is Don Mitchell has been the mayor for a long time um But he has been competed against by bella reo who's she's the new candidate and uh information they talk about is Oh, well crime is up um There's a master vigilante out and then he rebuffs with like well, uh You know thomas wane's renewal fund was super valuable in terms of helping out the city and investing in infrastructure Um plus like the maroney, uh drug bust but which gets talked about a bit later Those are like the main things of the disgust um And then he decides to take a little step to the sides to pour himself a drink and there's there's there's a little spooky man standing in the shadows I thought that was a really cool It's not rudlow. It's riddler. Oh same thing. It's riddler, but um, I've you think of it a more less accent free I'm not making fun of that. I'm making fun of this. Well, you're disparaged here words. I'm allowed to do that um, so this is the first of many examples of Utilizing the shadows To reveal important characters. They do this a lot in this film And I really like it What do they do a lot in this film? Sorry, um Reveals of people in the shadows Yeah, they do or in the background um I noticed uh later when someone's following someone else in a motorcycle your eyes are just elsewhere And then you sort of see it like you're like, oh something's going on in the back And I just wasn't really looking Yeah, well the thing is that you can see the riddler But it's the flash of the tv the light that basically reveals exactly where he is And uh, he what's up? It's creepy. Yeah And then um, so in my in my screening someone was uh, I had this moment completely ruined for me because someone behind me Was just going oh bullshit Bullshit no bullshit. And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? I was like, oh riddler in the back Oh, okay. You thanks guy I don't what what would what would be their complaint like how did he get in? Yeah, I think they just didn't believe that he got in and was able to just stand there on notice the context Yeah, we don't have he doesn't have any of the and also he got through in the skylight. That's why they show it Yeah, I don't even I don't even need to see a skylight to know that that's possible. Someone could get in. Yeah, exactly. Um Especially with his man Yeah, unless it's like steven hawking, I can believe that someone's just getting through building at any point sneakily like, you know Yeah, I could buy it Um, the mayor then has a little phone call. He's he's not super happy with his debate performance. It wasn't he wasn't on his a game um Yeah, just didn't go so well. He hangs up and then he continues watching they keep conveying that information about like the renewal fund So yeah, so right now the important things that are getting conveyed is the renewal fund Which was set up by thomas wane. That was like a one billion dollar public endowment to the city to be useful like infrastructure and services and I believe the moroni drug bust Which is another important thing to keep in mind Anyway, it hangs up turns off the tv and then ridlow beats his head in with like a little carpet removal tool That's probably worth mentioning that I don't know if any of you guys felt this way, but riddler's standing there very like he's just watching him and it looks I I don't I didn't know what kind of character we were in for because um to be fair I think I watched the trailer once and then avoided anything to do with this film because I was just like I just want to see it What it is He like I was expecting him to like do one big hit and he'd be down But instead he like doesn't he like wail before doing it and then he does it in a very like Almost psychopathic way. He's sloppy. Yeah. Yeah I was like, oh, okay He falls over himself. He was like a running start almost and just hits him over while he's falling down I think so the the bloodstain is created as well because he picks up the thing and then goes back Yes, that's right. That is right Um, it's it's the element of surprise is working in his favor more so than his fighting prowess Yeah, yeah, I really like that. That was a strong suppression Yeah, it was like he's not as completely controlled this this man. Whoever he is Yeah, they're the the heavy breathing. There was there was a level of Collectedness, but also I guess um, yeah, you're really just focused on that heavy breathing, aren't you? It's it's hard not to notice It's very deliberately put right there for you to pick up on to figure out that this is the same person In case that was obvious There was a part there where it's just like If it almost becomes funny at some points in the film breathing um the breathing I think Really because it's I thought it was um So I didn't laugh and nobody laughed in the audience for both viewings of the film ever Well, that's the thing, right? So, um, I was there with uh, a couple of friends and Um, I think it was just we had a shared sense of shut the fuck up Um, I think it's just I might just be that we share a sense of humor because we were listening to the very heavy Breathing and then just sort of I think it was because we were both there with the shared sense of humor We both laughed at it at the same time Quietly we didn't disturb anyone else's Yeah, I would be that I would be like hey stop it. I'm trying to watch the movie But to be fair there were there were groups like Nero's who were giggling throughout the whole thing and they really annoyed me Uh, like they were just I don't know what was so funny about the whole film to them Yeah, it was pissed me off like that there reminds me of annoying I had a similar experience when I saw moonfall, uh with because this this would be a moonfall. It's basically Basically the same But there was I went to go and see it with my dad and there was maybe a dozen other people in the theater Uh way busier than the batman was oddly enough, but it's um But there was a guy who was sleeping during the movie, which is strange because it's not a boring film Uh, and he was snoring Very loudly to the point where I had actually I'd actually gotten up I stood up and I walked to the end of my aisle and I was like oh almost almost if it doesn't if he doesn't If it doesn't get quieter, I will go up there like oh, I was so fucking close And he he he slept through the entire movie though. His snoring did get significantly quieter for whatever reason But yeah, he slept through the whole thing Imagine buying a cinema ticket to just sit there and sleep the whole It was like the whole it's the worst environment to sleep in a very loud Yeah, it was it's not a quiet movie and he was like he was knocked out and it was most to the film It must have been at least like a third of the way in he started sleeping But he was Exactly what was said annoyed at laughter specifically no context at all Yes, you should be annoyed at laughter if it's in the theater and especially if it's not a funny scene It's somewhat actually trying to push it like I just find the sound of people laughing annoying in general That's someone's takeaway from that Yes, I'm not sure maybe it was a meme doesn't like it when other people are happy Hey Okay, snutter that doesn't make me happy No, particularly angers me is the laughter of children. I hate that Me too. They should die Anyway, that that's the end of that scene and thus in club thus thus begins The best scene in the lap thing Wow, all right Yes, yeah, I yeah, that's that's what I think anyway, um and perhaps the best introduction of batman ever Probably I think that our batman introduction seen in this It's probably the best stuff in the movie and I think it's the best batman content that I've seen like it's Best angle sequence that you've seen in honestly. Yeah, like I think it's so So good. It is so strong. I I think it's banger. It's awesome. It's a single gripe with it Yeah You I find the narration, uh, maybe I would have to Watch it again to find something that you know, it's isn't um, it doesn't this criticism doesn't apply to but um I find that the narration doesn't Um convey any information that I can't in simply infer from watching the scene Without that I guess I guess to clarify it. I meant the best Introduction of batman not necessarily the best scene of batman ever I thought was that not clear enough or I think it is my best scene in the film you said I yeah sure, but there were people talking about The best batman scene Oh, okay, right Did you see the best batman scene sorry well because a lot of people were saying the interrogation scene in the dark night Great scene Well, um, yeah, I don't I don't I think it skulls pretty damn high not 100% sure if I would say it's the best batman scene It could be though I like it, but I mean do is do you guys feel veneration? So I'm gonna need to be there or detracted from it always just neutral I think it added I think in the beginning it definitely added there are definitely times later on that it That it kind of annoyed me, but in the beginning kind of getting us into his headspace I was gonna say there's a benefit of knowing that's how he believes himself to be and that's what he believes the state of Gotham is So something that I would say is I think that it it's very on purpose that the two scenes that have narration are The beginning with the perception of what batman is now and the end with the perception of what batman ought to be in the future So like that is there is Um, there is a I remember I remember duration when he's on his little moped Yeah, yeah, but that I would consider that to still be bad part of the broader opening sequence um But but yeah, I get I get you um So the first one line in particular in this opening Opening narration that he has that I thought was really really strong It was the line about I'm paraphrasing, but it's something like you know, some people think I'm lurking in the shadows But I am the shadows. I feel like that's that's the whole point of the scene basically. Yeah I'm like that's really good. I thought I would have in any other film. I would have said that's edgy I was but I'm like here. Tell me why it's not Tell me well, I well, okay. It does it does sound kind of edgy. I'll give you that but I think the idea being that that he I mean the whole opening introduction scene for him is that there are what three different? You know potential crimes happening and he only shows up at one of them But the fear of his presence interrupts or disrupts the other ones as well because he is You know, he is the fear that keeps criminals in check I think on that line. I side with I'd way prefer that we say that than he say that Why like he didn't need to say I am the shadow like us saying it's almost like shadows are just Batman Like whenever there's shadows people think Batman's there instead of him going. I am the shadows. It's like, okay. Yeah, okay Well, that's my take on it as well. I feel the generation took away from that for me It's like I would have preferred this to be an inference that I made myself I do understand that because the part when he says that they've got a signal now It's not just a call. It's a warning here. He says to them and it's like I didn't need that You could have just said it's a like I don't I don't need that, you know, like I know who it's for um It's a little bit unnecessary, but I guess it's like I don't feel like it's that significant I guess in terms of detracting from the The uh, overall vibe that you're meant to get from the opening sequence Oh, no, I mean like I don't have I don't think it's significant either like I honestly even if I was Making the film I might end up like leaving it in if that was my decision. I'm not sure though like it's I think it probably would yeah Maybe the power is right. I felt that I felt that I didn't need it to be there Yeah, it's worth mentioning. It's like we've also it's one of the greatest scenes The batman ever so like, you know, don't worry. Don't worry. We're not I think yes, I think it was great. I really really like it I guess the the summary of what we see is we we see goth and we see we see bruce all coming up and Got a little cap on a hood covering his face walking through basically the goth and equivalent of like time square And then we see three crimes being committed. There's a dude. It's halloween night So everybody's got the little costumes on there's a guy robin a convenience store robin era Not robin robin with a g I just want to say I appreciate that starting on halloween That was a a lot of fan service for me. I appreciate that from mary's Well, I uh, I I also get the impression as well that it's meant to be sort of a reference to the long halloween Well, I almost They gave out Uh, the first part of long halloween and most or a lot of cinemas. I don't know if you guys got one, but I did I don't know Right now like a comic book. Yeah. Long halloween is a comic. Yeah, so No, I got I I got Fuck off I got a ticket and I had to pay for that I I'm also I get the distinct impression that the film was supposed to come out in halloween Um, before it got delayed because of uh, covid Oh, yeah, I can believe it. Yeah, it's specifically october 2021 to like november 2021 That's when the film is set so I can believe that it was meant to come out in halloween, which would have been cool But oh well. Um, yes, we have the the one guy robbing the convenience store. We have a group of guys, um Vandalizing like a bank of gotham Building and then we have a group of dudes in like sort of skeleton In skeleton makeup sitting on a train laughing about videos of people getting beat up and looking to Um, typically of them beating people up, right? Yeah. Yeah And looking to beat up a guy who's going to be getting jayce's people in white face and he assumes that they're all the same how fucked up And we we have we have three all racists are the same rags Oh Discuss in the comments below. Oh boy. You're all racist. That's the that's the common theme be monetized We have three uses of shadows in these places for the bank robber The alleyway that he tries to escape down. He pauses Because it's really dark. It's very dark in there. Every felony a pause A little bit. Yeah, that's a little bit what that man's up to. That's a good one. Actually, I'm pretty that's actually pretty good Um, the second one is as they're vandalizing He knocks over his can and then turns around and realizes that the entry to like the bank Very dark. You can't see anything um, and then the third one Uh, there's two examples in the butt. Uh, the train. It's very dark in the other carriage Um, and every single time we have a real nice steady zoom in on the shadows and the steady zoom in on the people as they look And damn, I love it as just the thought of really like it. Oh, oh It definitely gets you in the head of like, oh Shit cuz every time they're reminded because there's a little helicopter going around Shooting its lights and then when it disappears the bat signals there bat signals not to call. It's a warning which uh feels very indicative of the modus operandi of this batman at this moment um fear of fear That's what he's leveraging exclusively. It's scaring the shit out of people to try and deter crimes um Anyway, we we then cut back to uh on the uh, the train Um, the the fella gets off, but the thugs um ambush him Uh, they've got a guy with them who they're like almost doing like a rite of passage That he needs to beat him up, but uh and his face his face is only half done in the the makeup Yeah, clearly a problem on the other half. He has to commit a hate crime. Um, yes I don't want to mention it. I think it's totally in line with how they're like low level gum fucks who just beat people up and stuff I just thought it was kind of a music that on the on the phone It's like they just punch a person who's doing a jog and then it like goes to the wide of one of them to be like Yeah, nice one, bro. The high five. So a high five someone else is like, okay They just that level of scum It's a prank, bro Oh, yeah, exactly the the music in this section. Oh They have like the really um discordant like violin um Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah that undercuts it. It's really got like a horror vibe to it, which is so cool I'm so very much a fan of that Uh, in any case batman stumbles out of the shadows and then we get the the cool trailer fight that everybody's seen Rebeets the shit out of the dudes effortlessly um And then and then he says he says the line The the line on the vengeance No, he doesn't say I am the batman. He doesn't say that he says I'm vengeance Imagine he just looks up at them and just goes the batman I am DC's the batman 2022 What if he fucked up and he said is like he said I am Bruce Wayne. Oh fuck I mean I guess when I when I saw this line in the trailer I was so concerned this was just going to be an edge fest as well Now, yeah, like it's interesting you say that because it's probably like the most important line in the film Um, there was emphasis on it for a reason, but yeah, no, I I agree. It is Vengeance though Fringy Is he vengeance? Yes, like it's his name the vengeance That's that's what they should have named the movie. I'm I'm not so sure that he embodies vengeance at all in this movie So I think it's weird. Well, that's uh Uh, do you want to talk about that now? What do you think that there's lighter parts where it might become more apparent? What do you mean? I mean when you talk we've talked already about how this opening scene establishes his mo so to speak and Revenge doesn't seem to be part of it I'm a little confused. Well, so this might be something that becomes a through line as we talk about it that There are aspects of the film where I think that you could provide an explanation for things That works But it's not necessarily thoroughly supported by what's in the film if you understand what I mean Like it like the explanation makes sense, but there aren't a lot of scenes or lines that you could latch on to to explain it Yeah, I feel like for instance. I was thinking about it myself for a moment there and I was like Man, I'm pulling from um things. I know about batman rather than necessarily explicit things from this film but I wonder if that's the uh Wow with me a little bit is enough components in the film to I think justify it, but I don't think they're explicit about How truly is the question though? Do they need to have this with it? The death of his parents is the biggest thing, right? Which I'm gonna say, yeah, which isn't a spoiler. Don't worry chat Though I will say this is full spoilers. You're gonna get all the spoilers. So oh in case that wasn't obvious As with arcane, you're gonna have to leave at some point in the next nine hours if you don't want this film spoiled for you Yes, you will I haven't seen the movie yet. Fuck Um Of all the batman films though, he's the least alfred boy Yeah, it's true. Like honestly, he is the least. You're not my dad Alfred boy jr. Why why right? He isn't his dad. Why do you have to say it like that jay? Why would he literally deliver the line while wearing black high makeup? It's just a bit of a gore scene. I don't have a problem with it. It's just a bit funny My dad Oh, yeah, I guess I guess to uh make clear by the way any time that you want to interject with like a question or a point That you want to raise is we're going through feel free to interrupt. That is totally fine. Um That wasn't me being sarcastic. By the way, I'm dead serious Interrupt, um batman stumbles out He's beating him up and then he gets into a little all brool with all of these guys He uh, he hits hard in this film Oh, yeah, these are some violent scenes and we see him get a rest of batman We see him get shot as well, but his armor tanks are hit His armor does tank it. It's just good to know and I have no issue whatsoever It's a it's a thug with a pistol. They aim. They shoot They go for the biggest part amount of mass which is obviously his torso and his armor deflects it And then he like electrocutes their neck Yeah He uh, yeah, I guess the question to ask would be would it be common knowledge within this city that batman has bulletproof armor? I don't think so. I don't know. I think uh, yeah, I'm not sure that it would be either I think none of these early stages like maybe later on but like within the first couple of years Maybe not I would even go as far as saying I'm not sure if it totally matters because your average thug who's just batman's just arrived He's you know, you're you're stressed out. Everything's moving. You just aim and shoot aim Amen It's funny this happens in games a lot if you know not to attack There are a reference league of legends Someone activates a thing that if you attack them they get manner or something back You still do it because it's just the thing to do Mm-hmm I think um I think that With the introduction as well as the fact that the one of the thugs is like who the hell are you it's um, there is This is early enough Exactly, it's early enough in his career because this is only the second year that he's been doing this. Yeah Yeah, he is very much a mysterious character He is vengeance. That's right the vengeance But he is a mysterious character It's probably worth mentioning. So just um, I was just thinking I'm trying to think of our past comments on sort of stuff like that So I think they fire twice and it's just in the torso and they're pretty much right next to him Like a meter away or something like that. This is not batwoman where Uh, she's been terrorizing the city for years and that they every time aim everything away from her face Like we're talking just Yeah, there are a lot of moments in batwoman where she's like really far away Whereas a lot of the times in this film when he's shot, he's quite close up Yeah, um Which which if you're closer up, it's like you probably aren't just going to instinctively aim for like center mass If you're far away, you have the opportunity to just pan your gun up and just shoot towards the head Um, though, I guess if you're close to batman, you're trying to get that shot out as quickly as you can Yeah, pretty much. Mm-hmm It's uh, it's it's something that helps though. I guess uh, it might be worth noting right now. I'm pretty sure that his um His mask is not bulletproof. It is just like If it deflected a gunshot off of it, I'd be going come on. What also would you see that like he'd be knocked on his ass if it did anyway Well, so you say he'd be in like serious trouble if let's say something went off next to his face Uh, I would yeah That should be a serious issue. Yeah An example of something that could happen As a hypothetical yes, we will progress Have a bruise on his lip at least, you know some indication of a bruise on his lip, you know An indication of injury of any kind in in like Yeah, if you got injured, you know at all in the first, you know two hours of the movie potentially What I would like to go I would like I would have assumed it was bulletproof Hey, I am on topic your attention I'm gonna I'm gonna punch you. Oh, no Oh, what what is the reasoning for why you think it's not bulletproof? Is it just the way it looks? Uh, the reason well when he takes it off, it seems like it is like leather of some sort It's not it's not like a very it's not maybe it's kevlar. Maybe the material around the nose in particular looks leathery Yeah, it doesn't look like it's it's not the same material as his Bulletproof what I will say I think we may be dealing with a little bit of sci-fi material here because I don't know that there's anything Earthly that can do what this suit can do throughout the film for defenses. Oh, no, yeah Yeah, I'm sure We have a few modes of sci-fi material where you've got the Camera contact lenses, which I do not believe are possible with current technology Or like The audio pick up as well as the visual Yeah, yeah from the eyes. Well, here's a separate earpiece, doesn't he? I I don't know I think are we supposed because I thought he puts the thing on the thing and then it plays the audio as if the only thing It's nothing but I'm much more impressed. She's not also storage capacity Of the contact lens to store like 12 hours of high resolution video Yeah, that's fucking incredible. Well, maybe it's like cloud storage or something. Yeah, it's on the back very efficient codec It's got a really good Then I'm really impressed with the fucking size of whatever like is transmitting that in there. I look Yeah I'm fine to chalk these up to bad gadgets, but it is also Also the thing that he injects himself with at some point the film I think that that has an effect faster than anything that he could actually have injected himself would have Well, so as far as I'm aware, we are jumping super far ahead But I think uh with with that one the two interpretation would be that it's like adrenaline or alternatively that it's venom Well, it's it's a green canister, right? So green. That's right. It's not my group. Um, but it's it's no wonder fringy likes this movie I managed to get some super duper goo product placement in this movie. Yeah, wow So what I would like to highlight about the action scene is the about the action scene with the face paint guys Is that when the gun comes out? It's not it's actually treated as a more serious threat. Um, it's very clearly presented as an escalation of the stakes and batman Immediately reacts to it as the most immediate threat in the room Or I guess on the train station, which I think does a lot to ground the stakes of the story in Um, like maybe this is violated a couple of times later on But immediately we we ground the stakes of the story in combat where um An instrument that could kill me was actually a threat. We're not doing like fancy space fights, right? We're doing Grounded fights for the most part at least that's the goal in the same way of like In arcane when vi takes hits in her first fight, uh, like her street fight and is actually injured after that fight It's the same kind of thing that I think is achieved there Even though batman doesn't take any damage in this fight him just acknowledging the threat as A serious one is meaningful. I think I'm sure he takes damage, right? Like he gets he gets punched a few times He gets we don't see like we don't see any Like we see him get punched But we don't see me take any damage and like since he gets punched in the armor like I don't think that It's like I think if if you get to the end of the scene and you think that batman is fine after that fight I wouldn't feel like I think he's fine. It's just that I he's probably sustained something minor If anything, yeah, I don't yeah, well Like what is a couple of bruises, right? I said I don't get the impression that he Had any minor injuries after that fight Well, I was just gonna compliment the fact that people were here in him, which was cool Yeah We're not looking at iron man with someone punches and he just awkwardly laughs at them because they didn't do anything We see batman go like, uh That sort of thing. Yeah, he staggers, right? He is he is vulnerable. I don't remember. He was shot twice Um, yes in the armor, but I wouldn't be surprised if that gives him a bruise He was shot once Was it once? Bruised Wayne Loves when you do it. Fuck you At all I legitimately didn't hear you. When did you say this? twice That's that's an amount not a time 20 seconds ago I was Well, he joined the call I legitimately didn't know And then before that someone said to bruce on the lip and I was like, huh a bruise on the lip and nobody reacted Okay People are saying that I just forgot about them. That's fair. Um, well because I show him later on when he's he's putting on a shirt Yeah, I forgot about that. Um, the scene ends with uh, he looks at the dude who he saved And he says like don't hurt me Hmm I remember that no Like Adventures Yes, and now What the main plot wow the main plot begun in the first scene actually so scratch that they're walking through to go to the crime scene He's following Jim, but all the cops all the other cops and looking at him a bit weird Like the fox's back guy doing here this which is probably Authority time for us to discuss the correct reaction Mm-hmm. Uh, this is I wonder if this is categorized in world building, but um You've got very clear and as with more of the film Being watched They have every reason to not only prevent him from getting in any way involved But they also kind of hate him And I think that the biggest reason we're given for him being entered is Jim Gordon Which I don't know is enough when he's a lieutenant rather than the commissioner Um Right. Yeah, that's that's a good question. What's that? That's questionable I guess the question would be do we do we know quite how long he has been able to directly? Um Participate in these investigations and second one the letter is addressed to the batman Um, nobody knows that this was the only one he was there for isn't that something they revealed earlier I believe it is Jim knows it But I don't think the because the commissioner is pissed at this event The commissioner well, that's the the commissioner doesn't know that he's even there right until he shows up And then he's like why is he here and then Jim shows him the letter that's addressed to the batman I got the impression that this is the only investigation that batman was there for I believe that yeah, the first thing to sort out is why aren't they arresting him? Because he's a vigilante Yeah Yeah, that that's what um I I would also argue they hate him and they corrupt just as additional right and the commissioner says he could be a suspect The commissioner says once he sees the uh, the letter. Yeah, that he could be yeah, and so they don't arrest him. Um, I I wish they I wish they established earlier on that the cops were sort of iffy on them Uh, they like some of them were clearly like oh, hey, it's batman instead of this is extreme skepticism from Pretty much everyone Every single cop looks at him like what the hell are you doing here? I'm pretty sure every single cop One of them literally says what are you doing? What are you doing exactly? And and it is an active crime scene. It is unusual to bring in The most well-built vigilante to an active crime scene that is unusual Mm-hmm. I I guess it's it's the fact that he says we have a signal now I feel like the like I get the impression that he and jim have worked together before But they're like his participation in a huge investigation. This is new I that's the impression I get obviously the bits of this are in the trailer I saw and I thought we were going to be getting um a timeline at least in the film Maybe it ends by the end of it where he and the police are on pretty good terms And he's essentially considered a pi but one that is you know unable to be detected or is is you know Fine line between what he's doing and just outright vigilantism that they need to take down But they do make it explicit like a lot of them fucking hate him a lot of them do not trust him A lot of them have good reason not to trust him by the way From their POV and then of course the yeah, he is strictly a vigilante and it's just like are those get arrested typically Yeah So yeah, I don't know I felt um Strange in all the scenes where he's around any cops Because I was just I think um All we have that we can use is that jim is protecting him And I guess the question would be is that enough considering that he is the he's not the commissioner And it seems like the only thing because we got the line because the commissioner and jim were partners And he says like, uh, you know, I tolerate a lot of things because we were partners, but this it's like, yeah Which is a little clunk to me Uh, it is a little clunk. It's it's hey, we were partners. That's because they wrote it for the exact reason You just said they were like we got to provide a bit more probably to make this Know that they're partners. Why would he say that? I yeah, I know we're partners And it's time for that. We're just like, oh you should be okay. Just say like, um Everything we've been through man. Like I really think you're stretching this, you know And we can be like everything they've been through. Huh. I wonder what that that relates to Well, yeah, because he says we we got history. He says that and it's like I think Yeah, even then I don't know um but uh In any case They're in the crime scene They're taking a look around At all of the evidence that man is there looking at things and everybody's a little bit It seems like he doesn't give a shit that everybody else is paying attention to him. He's just sort of doing his thing Yeah, he's kind of zone move around him that zone He uh, he moves very deliberately through the environment very deliberately and slowly taking in information of all the things Which makes sense for later because he's as we said, he's does the recording things because I Yep, yes That was a thought I when I saw him like ah, yeah, that would explain why so slowly looking at everything um And keeping maintaining eye contact with things for a long time Uh with people and and things on the ground um he They they're looking at uh, he's he's the guy the mayor He's had his face taped up and it says no more lies and there's also lies written on the wall in red page lies No, no, no They uh, they look at the mayor's hand His stomach has been cut off and batman says it is uh, it was cut off afterward because of um, you can tell by the wound Yep, which uh becomes relevant later on uh, he He then looks at the ground and he sees the blood splatter from the murder weapon Metal mentioned earlier on the ground um Now that's that is like super important to remember, but I feel like it's it's very easily um It when when everything is starting to play out it's something that you lose track of specifically that item Which I guess is interesting considering how much emphasis was put on it exactly Like the shape the imprint that it leaves in the blood on the uh on the floor Um that lead us up to my favorite part of the scene That does it uh, what's your favorite part of the scene where batman is acknowledging the Victims of this scenario and there's a little boy Oh, no, we're not we're not done yet with uh with that. I think that's uh, that's later on. No, that's that scene It is that scene, but it's it's at the end free. You said we could jump ahead if we wanted. Oh, yeah, we I don't think I'm jumping that far ahead. Surely it's like a minute. No, no It's just so that we make sure that we get back because there's still other stuff in the scene We need to talk about but yeah, go for it. Well, yeah, well, you shouldn't mess up continuity that much It's just batman sees a little boy who's who's struggling with the fact that it's the it's the kid We would have known from uh that opening scene, right? There in the halloween outfit. Yes, it is. Thank you. Yeah And this by the way would be one of the things I would cite along with many others as to how he is vengeance The the fact he's just staring at this kid and it's just you know, I got immediate feels of like, ah He's looking at himself. Yeah, he's seeing that. Yeah, we have a line that bolsters this, right? Um When it's made clear that the child was the person who found the body of his dance. Yeah, that's right. Yeah It's uh, it's a pretty clear parallel Yeah, and there's just I just got a sense straight away that this is the job. I'm trying to stop this from happening yes, um I think that uh, that character, uh, that kid is like Probably the most significant element in terms of uh bolstering the theme Of the film because we this is not the last time that we see him um But uh, I guess jump back to the The investigation there they they find the letter to the batman From your secret friend who and then inside Uh, it has a little a little old riddle. Um the the first riddle in the film. What does the lion do when he's dead? Um the answer to which is he lies still He lies still Yes, he does he does say it kind of like um Now, I guess uh What what what was what was the the panel's thoughts on um on on this in terms of like the the riddlers, um The first example of the riddlers, I guess uh game that he's playing. I like that. I like it I do. Yeah. Yeah Um, I'm gonna throw that riddle It is it is quite strong For a couple of so because he he lies still it's like all right Keep that in mind. It's relevance later, but it's also more broadly relevance Um, and I guess another important thing. There's a cipher in there Uh that corresponds with with that so there's a rage Uh, no, it's not cipher rage for each. Oh, are you are you unfamiliar with the masterpiece known as after earth? No, I'm very That's why It's my favorite oc day, but I think cipher rage It does make sense that uh cipher rage is in my shamalan's oc Mm-hmm Yeah, they uh that that's that's uh, they they the the letters he lies still correspond with the ciphers we'll find out later um, and then yeah, we have uh, that he sees he sees a kid and then he Gets on his little uh motorcycle after the commissioner gives a speech about how the mayor was a super good dude a good friend of his And then he races off to the bat cave underneath the wane tower It's not so much a cave more like an underground labyrinth. Um, it's it's it's built into uh, I think an abandoned Train terminal. Yeah You can see like an old train in the background as well It is super cool how like every single batman film finds a new unique uh form of the bat cave Like every single one has some sort of new unique one. I I I mean, I'm not sure maybe uh, this is a conversation But I feel like that is one of the many examples of this film's awareness of the existence of the other batman films Um, I'd say so don't do it like everyone else did it So to the point where we're doing the wanes death scene, you know It is reminiscent to me of homecoming and that homecoming was also aware Yeah, that everybody knows Of the backstory. So it's like we're not And an awareness of like other villains that we've done before other tones that we've tried to go for and um The the story doesn't depend on the matter because it is still included in the film that batman's parents were shot Right. It's not a story that actually you can consume. This is your first piece of batman media with no knowledge And still get the full picture. It's pretty. I don't have to have the wanes death the pills fall, etc No, I think at this point it's it's it's fallen into the uncle ben territory. It's like, yeah, we know. Yes, we know Dude, I would argue if ben fell into the Martha's, uh, sorry the wanes territory. Yeah, it's true. It's like, yeah, if um If this film opened and we were like nighttime alleyway the wanes are going No, sorry, I still though If it did and any of you were like that's a bad I'd be like it's not a bad We can't be that mean you have to let them try their version. It's just annoying in a matter sense. I've seen it a million times Uh before I forget to mention as well in the monologue he mentions basically what we need to know is I'm doing the batman stuff, but it doesn't appear to be working crime is up I'm not sure that I'm making the difference like I don't know if I can save the city And he's writing all of these in the journal So the context for the narration is that when he finishes a night he'll drop down his thoughts Which is inspired by batwoman because k kane would write journals That's right. Hey, exactly Didn't want to say A batwoman was a huge inspiration for this movie But all right, no, I hate this adaptation of batwoman The original title was the batwoman man The spin-off. Oh the batwoman man. Imagine how like the lead writer is very inclusive The bat Reeves took a lot of inspiration. They were just like why? And then he just said oh because of how terrible it is. I don't want to do that They're like, oh, okay. Yeah Um And then once he's in the bat cave, he then puts his little eye thing on and starts going through the footage While listening to the news Um and the news report we find out that in an eerie coincidence. It's been about 20 years It's been exactly 20 years Since thomas wane died and he was running for mayor too Um, hmm interesting. Whoa One thing that I was slightly unhappy with in that scene was the assumption from everyone reporting on it that it was a coincidence Why well, they said an eerie coincidence. I think there is an implication there I suppose like Like I wanted acknowledgement that this this killer could have made that decision because it was very close to the you know Is it that that it is eerie not enough of a suggestion of hmm? Actually, I suppose because the problem is you have nothing else to work with at this point other than two mayors got killed Um, I guess it would be that the odds of it just happening like on the same day are like insane But I mean, I I wouldn't have to I guess my thing would be to not have declared a coincidence like I don't think the word eerie correlation covers it Mm-hmm. Um, well, I mean, I guess maybe it's just that there isn't a better word to use in that the coincidence Maybe the correlation Well, they don't know if there's a correlation It is the news they don't it just happened they might they don't they actually just might not be able to say There is definitely a connection between these two things. Mm-hmm I mean, of course, I like if I would have assumed that news reporters would say Um, this is taking place on the same day, you know the 20 year anniversary um And then just um say it is unknown if this is a can if there is a deliberate connection here or if it's uh coincidental Well, wait, was that just by saying that it is a coincidence They say an eerie coincidence. Yeah, and an eerie coincidence doesn't mean potentially not a coincidence. Sorry, but like I think the tone would matter, right? Like if if I said to free. Yeah, that's an eerie coincidence It sounds like I think it's you know more than just like Maybe is that how they say it? No, my point is that you're reading it to mean like a definite like oh, what an eerie coincidence Anyway, moving on I'm not sure. Yeah, like I feel like this is not a point at all because if they said anything else They would be jumping to conclusions. They have no reason to be the thing that I suggested They might say is it's unknown as to whether this is a coincidence Well, how is it not that they talk about explicitly that it's been 20 years and then they talk about how he died Is there not an implication there of could this be connected just by virtue of the fact that you talked about it at length? well, they I I don't feel like how I don't see how this is like How this is like holding us up because like I my read of the scene is that they declare it's those in like how it's Because my interpretation of the scene I think is pretty clear right they declare it a coincidence. I don't see the word eerie to I didn't interpret that to mean that it potentially wasn't a coincidence um So that's not that there should be any other point besides can the word eerie Actually mean that it could be a coincidence from the person saying it and I'm not sure I'm happy to accept that but it's not something that's big enough that I want to believe at the point So the the two things I would say to that are one in universe All they have to go off of is that it isn't eerie coincidence They have nothing more that they are aware of as journalists and the implication Of talking at length that thomas wane was killed on the same day Implies that there is a connection that is suspected by the press but second in universe I mean in terms of communicating the story This is information that they want to think about Saying that it's a coincidence means that they are Reaching a conclusion that it's not connected, which is also something that they don't know um Surely as a journalist you err on the side of it's a coincidence before saying that there is a link Between the two and I think that the idea of saying eerie coincidence Is almost like an implication of hmm. This could be related. I guess I'm happy. I guess I'm happy for that to be the case then Sure, okay. Oh, all right. If you're happy if you're happy really weird. What if they said Suspicious but that help would that think of better? If they'd said one of them had a beer like a like a mustache He could twirl or maybe he could do the chin beard where he just sort of strokes it downwards So is the word correlation as well doesn't mean that there's a link. It just means that it's correlated It doesn't mean that's a causal link So correlation doesn't equal causation. Yeah, that is kind of sus. That is the truth as it stands in this universe right now It's a little sassy Murder is sus Moving on, um Which we see alfred alfred uh comes on and alfred played by andy circus, which is really cool Yeah, thank you very much I was like a certain pop-up and i'm like that's fucking andy circus I don't know what it is about the idea of an andy circus alfred, but I was very very uh enticed by such things and It was very enticed. I That's the you had to cross the line there right okay subtext is everything. I'm just saying what nothing at all I I was very happy to see him and I was I was like whoo-hoo. I want to see Uh, what this alfred and this bruce are up to because I think I'm starting to realize one of my favorite things about batman content is What alfred and batman's or alfred and bruce's relationship is a big part of this Is alfred Is alfred the most famous butler? Uh, I I yeah, I think that's I so that's the name jeevs come from By the way, I I actually was um, I was I think this was I don't know if it's extended universe DC content I don't know if it's from a like a comic book or a graphic or something like that But I actually found where alfred went to school Um, and and they I don't know if they bring it up Do you want to read out the name? Butler University You lend to be a butler Butler University So here's actually recognized university I would like to say that in another astounding coincidence um, the night that I saw uh, the Batman, that's the ramus film the night that I saw the batman, which was last night I was I was up and so I was just browsing youtube And there's a channel called secret base and they talk about sport stuff And they had it they have a weird rule section where they talk about weird rules And they had mentioned butler university randomly in one of their videos and I was like, oh my god There's like, oh butler university like oh my god That's where alfred went to school and got his degree and being a butler Oh I mean, I believe it's everywhere. Yeah, I did I did like that andy circus alfred used to be in the circus That was kind of fun Oh nice Oh, I just I just yeah, I like it That's each that one person takes this road and the other person takes that road And there's just so much so much content So God, can you believe this shit's free? Jesus The uh, the impression that we get from the scene with alfred is that the relationship is not fantastic There's a little bit of distance between them It's mainly alfred is prodding him that he needs to be more involved in the bruce wane aspect of his life Um, but he's not interested He he doesn't yeah, he doesn't think I think he says that like the batman is his parents legacy Like that's what it is not the company or the the money or anything Oh, yeah, he says normally you need to worry about what about your parents legacy and you're like this Yeah exactly and Then uh, he basically says something like stop. You're not my dad. Um, and then alfred says i'm i'm well aware of that It's like, oh, no, I and yeah, um, I'll be on one of those last scene. I was like, oh, that's a big subtext That's that means that alfred saying i'm well aware of that meeting, of course I've gotten that impression bruce over the many years that we've been together. He's like, oh Yeah It is a very different bruce alfred relationship because generally alfred is basically bruce's dad um Or at the very least like well, I mean, you know, like the most good terms mentor assistant Well, the most favorite relationship in his life um consistently Uh, and it's a cool dynamic that I typically like as is so it is interesting that it is different here Um on fnt. They were saying that the most common Comic bat comic alfred is more so like the um the betas one where he is very strictly like almost always calling him master bruce and uh very much delivering food and drinks and very Really does he contradict uh bruce or suggest stuff and I was just like, okay That might not even be my favorite version. I I prefer more involved and more down like god damn it I come to him doing this. I'm sorry, but justice league alfred He was pretty good. Yeah I really like Man in the chair I just like the sarcastic commentary alfred the pushback he gives and the fact that he's a He's an engineer of sorts like that. That was really cool I like that a lot, but I also like the aspect in this one that he's a at least a bit of a brawler himself um, apparently Yeah, that he he implies that he has a military background. Yeah um Typically alfred was it with mi6 or a British intelligence before becoming a butler Which is It's a career path that every soldier takes one day Well We either die a soldier or live long enough to become a butler We we we see as uh, they go up to this really cool like gothic dining room. Um, but i presume is it like the top of the tower It's super cool as a as a little setting um alfred has been working on the cipher using the seven letters he's starting to um Basically figure it out But then they they have another idea that I kind of don't remember they they go down and they um they they run through their little uh computer and they come up With the word drive. Oh, yeah, he only yeah, they they get that get you go ahead metal So, uh, I think bruce says like oh wait, what is this? What if this isn't a partial key? It's the whole key Yeah, they put it in their little machine and they highlight all the The things they've got right like they get rid of all the ones they don't have a translation for and mix a word Yeah So seven highlights the ones they have and then the points uh shows up as drive drive Which then leads to the garage. Yes the garage where the mass cars So I was curious about this one because I was like, oh, that's probably something I'm not saying this is is a whole or a stretch in any way. It's totally fine. But um The riddler must have expected they probably will check his car eventually the police so whether or not The riddle is solved. They'll probably find that thumb drive, right? Yeah. Um Poss it's possible like it's not um something they led to that only the riddle could have gotten them there Um, I think it's interesting that there is a very slim chance that someone was like you would check of his car You know as part of the investigation, I guess Oh, shit, there's a fucking thumb drive in you. Um, but yeah, it's inevitable Maybe is more likely is a family member. Um to check the car for whatever reason and been like, oh my god, there's a thumb Well, the riddler wants um the batman to find it first Well, so that's kind of the interesting part, right? Um The riddle is something that could have stumped batman I guess you I guess you hoped it wouldn't have anything though, right? Any any given riddle could Oh, yes, I'll be bringing it up several times Yeah, um And also because there's like a little shop thing sticking out of the uh, the tire as well Oh, that was the other thing. Yeah where I was like, man, that's a big signal It's a big signal. I don't think it was necessary. I don't know why it was in there. Um Was the tool relevant in some way? I don't know to notify which car it was He used to cut off the thumb that would have been it because I had blood on it Oh, sorry. I meant the type of tool because that comes up later as a as a thing, you know Oh, I don't think so. No, I think it is just that's it. I think it's just good for cutting off thumbs Incidentally because it's used to trim branches and here's the other trim limbs one might even say um So that man, I assume told gordon you figured out the cipher, right? Uh, yeah, they would have because I hooked up to go, um and so Would gordon not be like Man, you figured it out. Did you write it down or something when I wasn't looking? Um, what like that? He's wondering why It would be pretty difficult to have nailed that with the amount of remember. He's a huge like set of Uh ciphered letters, right, but he does it because he records it all with his eyes I'm assuming gordon doesn't know he doesn't take it with him or take a picture. Yeah Maybe jim just does know that batman's doing that. Yeah, maybe does um We just chalk it up to I don't know how batman operates, but he just seems to Figure things out get things done and figure things out I don't know. I feel like I'd be pretty curious about that I'd be like, man, you nailed and and let's go for a second with jim knows it It's just like I don't think that causes any issues at all But it is kind of interesting to be like, yep, he's gonna record everything That we have access to as well. I suppose jim is on board with that Well, jim, but yeah, he seems to be really on board with working with batman. You trust him a whole bunch Yes um That's cuck They are they go into the car. They they find the the thumb drive, of course thumb drive. Haha. I love that gag so much Yeah, it's uh, yeah, I mean it's I uh, and then they They realize that they can use the thumb to access like an encrypted uh The encrypted flash drive And then We get a whole bunch of pictures of the mare With uh with a lady a little mistress walking out of the iceberg lounge Um This oh wait, this is what they serve lettuce Oh, no, no. Yeah, you're right. You keep going. Sorry Yeah, um This this is very important. Um So in the in the images Now, I guess we're just they they all get sent to news outlets automatically because they got accessed Um, we see a few people in the images. We see the penguin standing back there Uh, we also see a lady and her foot and that's it. We can't see her face. Um, and they deduce. All right. Well, let's go Meet with the penguin Uh to figure out who this lady is uh, because the the mare is happily married Um, or so it seemed anyway Um, his wife wasn't putting out. I felt um I thought it was a little like I don't know what I think about this But just the fact that it's like sending it to all of your uh sources and contacts of gordon. It's like, oh, shit Yeah, I probably probably should have put this into a secure laptop. Whoops Like yeah, I I was thinking of myself like is that really stupid or is that just a really normal mistake to make It's like because I guess he just he put it in his own laptop. It's like you probably have experience with this, right? It's like a crazy man's usb. You don't know what's on there Yeah, I guess, um, but I mean I I suppose I can see like do you know It's like a huge deal If you put a flash drive in that it's gonna send and and I guess the count would be if it didn't send the emails I just would presume that the ridler would send them anyway. Like he wants this information out Um, because the whole idea wouldn't do it like that to be honest with you instead Um, I guess there's a it's kind of funny that it's it's jim's email, you know That kind of messes with it. Maybe I mean you would seem more credible coming from the from jim surely as well There is that for sure. That would go. There'll be an intrigue intrigue in terms of oh boy Why'd it come from jim if it was from the ridler go for a middle plate? What would happen? What would have happened if you put it at the bad computer? Just like bad Oh, shit Because before I forget some the the riddle he lies still it's like And I think jim says like uh, yeah destroys reputation after he's dead. It's like, yeah, that's that's like the point of the riddle Even though he's dead lies still persists What if it comes from uh, bruce at wane enterprises instead? I doubt that that's the email that batman logs into it as terminal Well, I'm you know to be honest. I doubt that that man logs into an email on his I doubt that he has a batman at batman.com Fan mail. What if it's batman at wane enterprises? Um, that's my gamertag leave me alone batman at batcave.net bat at man.com bat at man.com Um, we got man.com. That's great. That used to be a porn site, you know batman man.com was a porn site before batman bought it for his email He's hey if you're wane you got money to throw around on buying porn site domain names Like imagine the lucky bastards who got sex.com Yeah, well, let's find out what sex.com is It's probably a porn site right now. It seems to be an investment firm Really? Yeah M.A.N. or M.A.N.N. Imagine imagine some one in history and you're going it's an investment firm. I swear man group sex.com is not an investment firm Mm-hmm Sex is sort of an investment depending on what your goal is Founded in 1783. Wow. Wow. They snagged that domain early. Yeah Um, so in any case batman deduce he decides to go to the iceberg lounge jim's like, oh, you know, we You know, you need a warrant to get in there. Did he go up to the iceberg lounge and say let us in No, I like it Um, he he doesn't say that but Yeah, I got it They uh, he thought that you get that I needed to know that fringy and He wants to get in um to see the penguin and there are these two twins that try to stop him But uh, he just beats them up and goes inside and gets into a little bit of a fight Um in this crazy big lounge. It's huge Um There's like thousands of people in there Uh, why don't we open up a controversial conversation that happened on fnt? Uh, see see what see what everyone here thinks Those thugs they open up the door and he's like And then he closes it and he opens a backup for his twin friend And then they decide to be like get the fuck out of here or we're gonna beat you up make you leave And then they fireman they lose miserably so, um Do you think that at this point in batman's like legacy slash gartham's history that they should be more careful Considering who he is and what he can do and how aware of him. Absolutely. Yeah, probably absolutely The whole entrance of his story is him talking about how he's inspiring fear And he beats the shit out of people and everyone knows it Yeah, people are aware of his existence and what he does Especially in the criminal underworld. Yes. Yeah I was saying the moller. Okay, you go ahead metal. I will Okay, we've got our two in set. So bell rags me. We'll get there eventually No, especially because this is like a penguin thing we're in here right now And he is definitely aware about the batman. So I would assume he would instruct his Security people's like, oh, if you see the batman, don't tell him to fuck off or something Could it be they're confident because they know there's loads of guys in there with guns Have they had a bunch of guys with guns? I totally on board with that, but they had two guys with two fists Well, we have two guys at the entrance, but like they know that they're backed up by those guys with guns Yeah, they should have guns and I would be happy with the scene if they if I would be happy with the scene if they had guns, yeah I would be happy with the scene if they alerted Their, uh, their bosses like immediately when I was talking to rags about it I thought it would be an opportunity to open the door and batman's just standing there And then he fucking closes it and you hear lock lock lock lock. He's just like yeah, I When I watched the film, I thought they were going to do something Clever shall we say but they didn't and I thought it was a real uh real loss Because let's say you let's say you don't really know that much about batman But a guy shows up in front of your Your door and he's covered in armor and metal plates. I think you want to avoid punching him with your hands And um and batman are not the penguin comes up to him personally to be like, okay Let's have a talk and it's just like man Maybe a bodyguard should be ready to sort of treat him not just as I don't know I just as a thug because a lot of people have cited already thugs aren't smart. It's like Okay, but they're not retarded Like they should have some self preservation, right? I don't want to punch a person covered and I don't want to punch a person Covered in metal plates with my hands. You ever said that you're not smart? Whoa Oh shit balls. Yeah I thought they were gonna do something And no like, okay. Can we just like thugs aren't smart? Is that even like can we talk about that as a rule? It's like what the thugs are just people who are big and strong and like use that as their um Savika's a leverage, right a thug type, but she's not an idiot. She's smart. Yeah. Yeah, so as vi like They're just people who use the big muscles as leverage. That's not that doesn't mean you're dumb And and you'd think that you would want your doorman who are watching the door to have some elements of judging people in cleverness about them You know, not just enough to do that at least. Yeah. Yeah, you know At least I'm not asking for Yeah common sense would be a good start starting point for this occupation It's like, well, you know, like if they were like, oh the batman come on in would you be doing? Oh, well, he said They're not smart. They're thugs. So Yeah, if the batman shows up And says I want to talk to your employer I was thinking that they'd go like, okay We'll go get him and the penguin wants to talk to him because the penguins aware of his reputation and doesn't want to cause trouble Because this is a business. This is like the like I'm fucking it's stupid that they're shooting guns inside of a nightclub Like that's absolutely retarded. There's no way they should be doing that even from their perspective That's a horrible decision But the idea that this is a business penguin wants to run this business and he wants to he doesn't want There to be fights everywhere and he knows that batman is his reputation and he's vengeance in the night in the shadow and all that So he's probably just like, yeah, let's talk in my office. This will this will work out better if we just talk instead of start fighting What's the main to his credit the penguin does when they finally like I guess when the penguin becomes aware that batman's here But you think that they'd let him know Yeah, like oh shit the batman's here and he wants to talk to you. We don't know why he just What should we do? This is not usual This is not covered in our in the seminar. I took when I when I first started working here The the the thug doorman powerpoint that they watch every year to keep their license Their certification Do you think that it goes this way just because they wanted another action scene? Yes. I feel us that way Oh, yeah, there's that someone just mentioned in chat. There's that one clip Where in the animated series there's a thug that walks into a room sees batman and just glistening the door pretends he didn't see And like the videos are are called like the correct response to seeing batman or the smartest thug ever Um, oh, yeah, and I guess the other half of it is uh, wasn't impressed with batman Decision on how to Approach the iceberg lounge Yeah, that sucked go to the front door. It was a little weird to see him just walk up to the front door Yeah, start punching everybody. Yeah, it's sucked. Um, so I like that's not clever I was told on fnt that to be fair This is an early career batman who's not learned more sleuthy You know approaches and I don't know that I consider that that compelling as a reason Oh, no, that's a that's a terrible argument whoever made that because the entire film shows him sneaking up on people and being silent And showing up when people don't expect it But he does that with selena for the most part and he doesn't do it with the people He should be sneaking up on or sneaking into I've done zero years of sleuthing and my immediate assumption is maybe there are better options In the front door I've played like I know there are stealth options in video games for a reason Crawl through the vents. Yeah There are beds Show up in the penguin's office rather than Exactly Yeah We don't see batman going in the penguins just going about his business. He's got a girl with him He's talking to some patrons on the way to his office. He closes the door. He sighs. He thinks he's alone He turns around. Oh, shit. Batman's in my office just sitting there waiting for me Stop Yeah, yeah, and but but they but instead batman very cleverly Shows up at the front door and starts punching everyone But this is our first introduction to penguin played by colin farrell What a great what a great penguin I really like him in this. Yeah, I think it's great. Um, it's is unrecognizable Really great performance of prosthetics are super cool It's making it making several people rethink what they believe about colin farrell and I've always was like I've always liked him He's uh, yeah He does But this is this would be one of those ones where it's like he has range. It's like he's always had range, but yes Yes, I met him once colin farrell neat really Yeah, do you ask him how he was to play penguin? No, this was uh before the movie. I wish I'd asked him that at the time This was years and years back. He just was at the hotel. I was working at he just showed up Uh, when I was a valet he was in a suburban this to just a regular suburban He was there with a couple other people and just checked him in and Brought his stuff inside for the you know bellhop and that was that nothing special just Check, you know, it's a tag for his vehicle and everything. So Yeah, um me End of story I I really like miss penguin. I guess we get more opportunities to talk about that though. Um They go. We will have more opportunities to talk about that I go into the penguins office He shows him the pictures And he's like, I yeah, I have no idea who this is. Uh, the girl with um, mitchell And and then uh Selena kyle walks in To to bring in drinks and she kind of stops for a second because she's kind of shocked to see batman here Um, just standing in a talk into the penguin um, she then Like uh leans down to give him like a drink, but she also exchanges I can't remember exactly, uh, who's who but the money is exchanged for drops, which are like a drug in this world Um, I think they're called drop heads or whatever, right? The heads of the people Yeah drops are new into a drop head Exchange money. They are called drops because they are taken by a drug Yeah Bill or is gusts. Well, it's Some call them droppers with the heart are Which is the one way that like People don't take drugs in real life. So it's immediately tells you that it's a fictional one Uh, well, so I guess uh an important the important thing here is so she comes in She's surprised at batman's there. She then swaps the money for the drops But she pauses when she sees uh the the girl in the in the pictures Um and kind of plays it off not super great And then she leaves but batman notices that she's actually keeping an eye on him through the window um And yeah, he he basically doesn't get anything out of the penguin like he just says like i'm the proprietor this establishment And that's it. Um of his voice Yeah, I hire all the shitty dormant again The the thing to keep in mind in this scene is when selena comes in she appears to be surprised that batman is there So this is our first big contrivance, and yeah How did you detect that's what fringy was setting up for later possibly? What? Yeah Can I I I forgot to mention by the way, um, I think batman is shot at three or four times in the club in the active club With many people everywhere twice. Yeah. Yes, as I said, this is you should never this is just like a last You don't want to be doing this not just from a Like you'd have to be an absolute fool to start shooting guns like that In a crowded club where you have your workers and patrons and you want to draw as little like Police attention to this place as possible to the point where I wouldn't even like give the people who work on the inside guns Because that's just a recipe Police attention to it What are you thinking about there? Like the sense that you don't want to get this place But you don't want to create commotion here. Uh, yeah. Yeah, sure. Um And I understand that police corruption is a big aspect But you can't rely on that to solve all of your issues and stuff You don't want to get this place on the radar You don't want to have guns like what if a patron gets shot if someone dies they're gonna go Yeah, like that's gonna be a big deal. Um In it's just it's it's always pretty much going to create more problems than it'll solve And you want patrons to keep coming back? Exactly. It's a business. You need people to come not everyone here is some Shady thug with connections who you're trying to set up. No, they're people It's a club. Most of the people here are probably just there to go clubbing Not like seals But like just to enjoy themselves with like alcohol and drinks and to meet ladies and things like that And this is less a criticism or a preference But uh when some guy pulls a pistol on him batman throws A metal polar in I think and tanks are shot after doing that And I had my first thought and it comes up a couple of times in this movie where I was just like Okay, batman didn't really Do anything intelligent there. He just He's just brawling his way through and tanking all of the shots. It would have been cool To see him doing things that make it so that he doesn't have to tank shots Um, for example getting shot in the back about two meters away by a shotgun You do get to a point eventually. We're just like is he just immune to all firearms? um because uh You know, as people know not a fan of john wick 2 and one of the main things I found is a difference between john wick 1 and 2 Which doesn't apply to this But it does apply to john wick is the we were shown him to be so Talented that he doesn't need to wear like a bulletproof fucking vest because he doesn't get shot at typically unless he's making mistakes Which he doesn't often do if you remember one of his biggest mistakes was his hesitation in shooting um The target he had because I think in the first film because he's like only just really it's like holy shit I have my opportunities right here as well as um, sometimes you'll make a mistake in terms of his stealth, but Uh in john wick 2 He gets fucking blasted by an avalanche of bullets, but it's fine because he's got his super sci-fi jacket and it's just like Um, so yeah, uh, yeah, you don't want to I mean it's it's one of those things where like in the army You will have a bulletproof vest and it works quite well But it only covers so much of you and you it is not something you rely it is a very much just in case Kind of thing it is not a rely on this to protect you Meanwhile, you get taught not to be shot first and foremost Yeah, meanwhile, batman walks around a little like iron man in this film where he's just like you can shoot me It's not going to do anything. Mwaha, which um, I think matches, uh, tony stock's ego as well as the Booty's got wearing But for batman, it's just like oh surely you want to avoid getting shot as much as possible. Oh, yeah Yeah, I didn't get that impression from him. It felt to me when watching it that he was like if I get shot It's the same as getting a little slap. It's fine Oh, when he gets shot in the back, right? He does. Yeah so Is it this is that the same cape that he later uses as a wingsuit No, he uses like a spell his wingsuit is like this special thing that comes out of a suit. Yeah I thought the wingsuit was After that, he doesn't have his cape anymore. Yeah So wait the cape turns into the Because it's got like strapped across I thought it was like inside of his suit like in the back of a suit someplace and it comes out and it goes over him I believe that the cape he loses the cape when he Does the wing gliding thing, but I mean these are across different nights. So if that cape was damaged I just imagine he has it. Yeah, we definitely got room to say he got a repaired one or something. Yeah, um, I guess uh, some Yeah, well, I guess you should be avoiding like because his cape isn't just like some cape then It's actually valuable equipment and that's where he has it with him, which makes sense You know, why why is he wearing a cape? Well, it actually serves utility. It's not just to look at you or whatever, but um He should then be avoiding getting shot in the back in particular because like That's gonna really unless his cape is made of some kind of bulletproof cloth, which I don't buy Well, if his back does it is his back armor. Do you have We have a jay's talking about it's back of his armor. The cape is on the outside of the armor, right? Yes So it's like not just for your own personal safety and like just avoiding getting shot in general You actually do take damage to your equipment when you get shot then if uh If that's the case, which means that he should be avoiding it all the more Just another reason for him to not want to get shot Um So something else that's important to mention as well as he uh, well, this is the end of the scene He notices that the boots that selena is wearing The same boots as a girl in the photo nearby is wearing And this leads him to trail her after she leaves the iceberg lounge um So in case it wasn't very parent, um So if if selena had come in to that room five minutes earlier or five minutes later Bruce would have had nothing to work with anymore. Um, what does different shoes? Or different shoes I think it's not a different shoes not an unreasonable thing to happen Uh, yes, wait do our women do women typically have more than one pair of shoes? No, like one or two they're very utilitarian Just the one and I guess it's the one shoe Just one day shoe they swap it with every step Um, it's just a very wide sheet. They can fit both their feet in it. Oh, yeah. Yeah Or like us, you know, you're gonna pop around everywhere they go Uh to emphasize the point now um This is I this is so important that that he is able to follow her because following her leads him directly to Annika the girl in question who is at this point the most important lady he has And as far as I can tell Selina wants to avoid batman Like she's she's not trying to get anything out of him Like she doesn't come into the room to get anything from him to To suss out what he's doing. She seems to be surprised that he's there So I think it is safe to say that she comes in and it's ringing. Could you not say suss? Really say suss again. I feel like suss is a tainted word What say more tainted words for you use as many as you can paint the word taint is less tainted than suss Um, I I do want to just have a quick fence about how does it feel when you're trying to summarize scenes And everyone's making a fucking joke. Is it a great? Yeah, because I I I do want to make this clear because this is like incredibly important as far as I'm concerned and like to me this is This is like the most significant plots problem in the film um, Selina is Far and away like the the most valuable person that he could have ever encountered To help him with his investigation Now, of course, uh, I guess so that we can make it clear that she is there for a reason she and anika are like a working They were working like the meadow and and falcones. Well, we're jumping the gun a bit falcon big crime boss operation to like get money um Out of him. So they're there for that reason, but The fact that she would come in at that time of any time The the five minutes that batman was there to talk to the penguin That she was wearing the same shoes Uh, that that she specifically is like anika's girlfriend um And that him following her there basically gives him all that information It's like without if she had come into that room five minutes earlier or later. The film is radically different Very different. Um, it is much harder for bruce to figure all of this out um Because of this Now, does anybody have any thoughts on that or is is that just do we agree? I agree. I think I agree, right? Yeah, I think that It's not enough that she has a reason to be there. It is too specific I think it's too specific when she shows up. You can have is that she works there She notices the big brawl and then she very just curiously curious like a cat follows Batman to Penguin thing with the excuse of I have a drink but she's just more interested to see what this batman's all about I guess the amendment would be that there is no drug swap because I think that the drug swap is just A clear indication to me that this was going to happen This exchange was going to happen regardless of whether batman was there or not Like this was something that she was doing and he just happened to be there at the right time um And and of course we're in the same boots as well and then that allows him to follow her and again She is like the key To him figuring out so many things about this investigation that would have been a lot harder for him to figure out without her Because he leads him She leads him directly to the person that he is looking for At this current moment who is the main lead that he has right now It's a huge coincidence. It's not impossible But damn, is it helpful convenient? You're you're saying contrivance here is maybe the word for it It is a contrivance. I would say Um, it's not convenient. It is convenient. It is very very very convenient Oh, it's not one of those what a contrivance is and she does have a reason to be there, but So so that's that's why I'm trying to emphasize it is convenient. It is not it is not a hole Because it could have happened It could have happened that she comes in at that moment the five minutes that he was there I mean, it's not it wouldn't be a hole if it was just like she goes to the um She goes to the club sometimes right then it still wouldn't be a hole. It's like hey, yeah, I know ours Well, yeah, but we don't we don't even need to press that she works there. So like I understand why he's there It's that she specifically comes in at that moment While he's there with the pictures of her Um seemingly unplanned and because of that that man control her because again, she's wearing the same boots So he figures that out and she was acting a little bit weird follow her directly to the woman that he was looking for It's it's perfect. You can even have um, you could even just have her like More clearly visible in the picture and then have batman ask penguin who they who she is Something like that But that that would be a significant change because then you it would just be If she's in the picture and he can see her visibly then it's like well that makes things I guess well well then it would have to be that he'd have to find her specifically right So you'd have to seek her out Is that I guess how do you think that helps actually? Okay, so She's visible in the picture He really he finds that penguin isn't a lead. He asks penguin Do you know any of these other people here that I could maybe talk to or something along those lines? Why would he tell it? Why would he tell him that? So penguin clearly doesn't cooperate Well, I mean surely bat penguin is sharing information like well penguin is seemingly Cooperative with batman because batman is slamming him into a window like yeah, sure But he always said like I'm the proprietor of this establishment. Yeah, he's doing the I'm cooperating, but really I'm not I'm not yeah, right um Yeah, like I I as far as I'm it's it's a huge conveniently it's it's it's very convenient um Because yeah, he follows her back to her place, uh, but she has a phone call with uh with uh, Anika who's like her roommate slash girlfriend And um, she's she's stressed out because of the news all the pictures of her. They're all over the place Uh, and then selena's like well, yeah, we'll try and get the money tonight then so it's like right so they're Um, they're they're working on it. She goes back bruce's scoping it out. Uh, she got a lot of cats She puts on a little cat suit And then heads off To uh the mayor's house To sneak in by the way, I think this is once you see the whole film that I think this is definitely deliberate When bruce was looking at here through his little Bioculars as mr. Burns would say I was like is this are they deliberately? Growing a parallel between bruce and riddler right now Yeah, I would say so because um it seemed that way to me I wish they went a little further once you finish the film I feel like I would actually cite this as deliberate um, but yeah Like this this place. Oh, yeah, they are doing it for very different reasons very different goals But uh, there's there's similarities in let's say approach and and ideology like is is fucked for One of them. I mean you could argue both of them But uh, it's I just thought it was an interesting thing to note because what what bruce is doing in this scene It's creepy as fuck to anybody who doesn't know the context Oh, yeah, yeah Someone shot said every clue is convenient um, what so I I mean every Only in the most basal sense could you say that to the point where it's not even worthwhile? Convenience loses its meaning at that point I think what it what's what's important in terms of uh, this particular conversation is think about the consequences of these specific clues So that her coming into the room at that moment Gives him the cause that he needs to follow her specifically a person He's never met before and who he has no clue is related at all directly to the woman that he's looking for And if she had come in five minutes earlier or later, he would have missed her and if we can do a counter example Um, if someone said What does a liar do after he's dead he lies still that's a pretty convenient bit of messaging there The batman can use to figure out the puzzle, isn't it and be like, well, no, it's not convenient at all Riddler sent it to him. It's on purpose. Yeah, it's the opposite of a convenience. It is an engineered Thing specifically it is by design He gets the clue he does some thinking and then that leads him to the car where he finds the thumb drive where he then finds It's it's all following as uh, as like cause and effect This is also cause and effect, but it's like we are we are stretching We are very much stretching things to to line up Um, because it's not just that it leads him to anika. It's also that this person specifically Is incredibly valuable to have working with you. She's she's very skilled uh and cooperative um Like a lot of what and I guess it will become clearer light of just how important how different the story is If she didn't walk in at that moment I don't know how he solves the mystery without her It would be It would be a different story. It would be a totally different story It would be a very different story if she had come in at a different time when he wasn't there You don't just have her track him down Well, why would she be tracking him down? What what does she care about batman? Okay, she wants to avoid Like when they get into the fight um Because I because what you can pull from the scene is there is a bit of concern. It's like oh anika's there with pictures Also fucking batman's got him and he's looking at him right like that's not good for you because you want because she wants to protect her um It's a convenience to quicken an inevitable crossing of paths. They would have they were going to run into each other eventually Were they necessarily? The city is big ends on what batman's route is well, so depending on where you're from to be clear It's it's not like it's not like Collina's there for no reason She is trying to steal money from falcon's operation falcon's operation is Central to the mystery But it's not about that they would have bumped into each other It's that him bumping into her at this moment is extremely helpful It is so very very helpful for his investigation We'll be getting soon to the biggest elements of that very soon, right? Yes It's coming later. We're not quite there yet to emphasize how important it is Um, but yeah, he follows her to the ma's office. She goes in does some safe cracking. She is clearly quite experienced at this um She gets in Uh batman's there Uh sneaks up on her they have a little bit of a fight Um, they're making a little too much noise. And so police officers like hey, what's going on? But batman Uh keeps her safe from the from the cop. So he doesn't know that they're both there now Is the safe currently open when that guy enters the room? Should be yes All we have to assume is that he simply didn't check and i'm just like Is that lucky that he doesn't check the most valuable thing in the room and he's designed to secure the room Well, she does have to reveal the safe behind the portrait. Yeah Yes, yes, but I so I don't think he so if you're a guard and you're aware of the secret important things That you're supposed to be protecting this room. All you do is glance over As you glance around the room, right? Um, I think on one level Well, had he checked the room in general So hang on if you look at the room in general, you're gonna luck out if he doesn't spot The the safe is open. Yeah, it's it's a it's a wide door. It's open and it's and it's just it's It's a thing that would stick out in a room because you're like, oh there's a big safe Door open on the on the wall Secondly, I think that it's lucky that he's not here Specifically with the knowledge to know that if someone's breaking in here, that's what they would go for and that he should glance over at it If if so such a well, if he is I think that would be the thing If he is one of the corrupt cops and not just a normal cop guarding a crime scene Um, I I think the luck element comes from just him noticing There isn't an open to safe on the wall with tools on the floor Um, I think that's really where the luck comes in. I think the fact though that he's probably not I think you're right. It's somewhere. Is there something that's yeah, it is somewhere I think that's where the luck comes in because um, if I kind of give it a pass to a degree to a for a decent degree because this cop probably Isn't that familiar with the room. It's probably just his job to make sure people aren't here um He's it's dark. He only has one flashlight or an electric torch as they say across the pond Um, and so he just he probably didn't hear anything I think he's just checking because he looks around because that's just what he's supposed to do is look around like a security guard essentially and He just he just shines his light in there a little bit And he just doesn't see anybody so he just goes back along his way So there's a little bit of luck. There is a there's some there's a fortunate aspect, but I don't think it's that big of a deal Um, now if it was like daytime and he didn't notice it Oh Yeah, then I'd have a much bigger problem Batman operates at night. Fortunately Yeah, he's he's become nocturnal Yeah, when someone said was it the same room. I think they go into a different room, but he's checking the room They go into a different room. Yeah. Yes um But so what we what we find out is she came the passport had been taken off of anika By the man locked in the safe that's why she was coming to get it so that they could leave Um by the man I was about to tell you something. I'm glad you did I was like free does what he's doing. Well, who was the man who was locked in the safe? I have to like try to That's sort of where I was waiting. I was waiting for what the payoff of that would be But I guess I guess it was just a little miss It was funny though because my mind imagined the visual of a little person trapped in his safe Oh, thank god. You're here um He eats pass. He's the passport gremlin. He eats pass You want to go to bogaria you get a talk to me I was like ready to go up He is like ready to go up and so there they are they go back to the apartment. Um, it's trashed and anika's gone She's been taken. Um Which is not good, uh, and but then they they Is that what happens when an apartment leaves it becomes a department? The apartment leaves it becomes a department. Hey They watch the news and it turns out that the commissioner uh has been killed by the riddler uh this night With some crazy grim like rat crap. It's very grim. Yeah The the trap is designed to just make it so that the rats will eventually eat your face Yeah, really fucked Yeah, horrible. Not a way. Did anyone else Did anyone else find it strange that the news outlet would just play the unedited video? I was going I thought about that but they do it pretty much throughout with a lot of sketchy stuff And i'm like is this just a gartham norm? Are we supposed to take it that way? Because gartham's a bit of a You know, I don't know. I I get I totally understand the point of view because I even when I sold the rat cage thing I was like damn they're showing this um Obviously for our benefit, but like the it maybe the gartham's rules aren't quite the same as ours Yeah, maybe. Yeah But yeah, that's yeah, they can have yeah, it's like british commercials where you can have boobs and like Serial ads and stuff and we can't do that over here. Yeah, it's a different place The play of lakes is just a news is just another news station in gartham You just you just have some just have some bucks. I'm last and she's just telling you about Maybe you should try some crisps And then she's unbuttoning your shirt and she just shows a tit and there you go But that's actually every advertising campaign in the uk. Yep Oh I'm not some crisps things that are crisps Someone in shouters mentioned something that's actually quite important The bat uh, not bat the count woman's phone gets stolen uh from the from from this place as well From the apartment That is important to remember um, but I don't know that it fixes the problem that That we gotta be getting to um They talk about uh She selena explains that there is a bar underneath the the club basically where it's like this is where the super duper important people go It's like the real club in the club. Yeah. Yeah, um, and then uh Makes the observation as well. Oh, you like cats. You got a lot of cats. Um, and they uh So the the plan at this point or I think that comes a little bit later um, oh, yeah, yeah that that um, that's right. The next scene is uh They're gonna like keep in touch. She says that you know, like you're gonna help me with this one um And we're gonna we're gonna help find you your friend um Which then takes us to the morgue where we see the Commissioner and the rat trap Yeah, I don't know if worth mentioning by the way batman does notice they have a lot of unpaid bills I think it's just to show us this motivation. They're beyond greed Yeah, exactly. Um Nice little just yeah, just throw these things in and he's take a look around as he would and that's how he finds out a name. Uh Yeah, they go to the morgue. Uh, it means with jim. Um, and they take a look at the rat's clue There's a bunch of symbols written in a like uv lights, which will be part of the next cipher that they need to figure out, but also um There's a little hidden compartment in the rat trap Uh, that contains photos of uh, the commissioner meeting up with some criminals Doing some and it's like, hmm. That's a wait. That's a legal Yeah, that's not you don't make it's not legal to meet up with criminals Yeah, I was about to say I guess in his aspect, but meeting up with criminals is actually sort of the job of the police That is true. Yeah It's just a little bit, uh odd, um Given what jim knows about the commissioner And then there's a second letter to the batman um And uh, it's it's got like a it's got a it's got a brand new riddle for him Um, the the the big part is like bring me some uh, bring him into the light the You'll find the rat bring him into the light and then you'll find romat Uh, which is a super important riddle for like the whole story Um, but it doesn't become clear like exactly what that means until much later Um, and the cipher itself that they start to work on later doesn't it's like it is going to give them The information on like who the rat is but the nature of like bringing them into the light is I guess it's you know We still got to figure that out. We're not quite there yet um Any observations about this particular part None remain I thought I what when you hear bring them into the light where does your Because we'll come back to this of course eventually But what is where does your mind go when you hear bring bring something into the light or bring them into the light? Expose them you yeah, yeah That's basically I I think I think it's Fair that at this point he's kind of got that impression that that's like the idea find the rat and and uh reveal them to the world um But then the next the next we're we're now with uh, he is working with Lena giving her the little eye thing to record stuff. She's going to go into the super duper crazy For those who haven't seen the film. It's basically like this mega bionic cyberpunk, uh contact lens lens Yeah, it's incredible. It is definitely a bat gadget. It is definitely batman gadget So this is the part again that I want to emphasize Remember the reason why he's able to have selena help him at this moment is because they bumped into each other at the place And and she came in at the right time and she was and because uh, she's obviously someone who can access the club And someone who can do this Yeah for him and is very helpful Yeah, and she's motivated to help him. Yeah Oh my god, I can't believe it. I haven't considered. Oh, I fucking hell. She works at club penguin. Oh my god I'm never even considered. Oh fuck um She took me this long. It took me this fucking long to put that together Fringy Fringy, she works at club penguin Yeah, I I heard you Fringy, did you know she works at club penguin? What the fuck? Oh my gosh. The pool is closed um So does she club penguins? she uh She goes into the to the to the bar. She goes up to the stairs and We see that the person who is guarding the elevator is somebody that batman got into a fight with two with the night before He is an off-duty police officer Oh, he's the one who shot him with a pistol, right? Yeah, uh, it's like, oh, he's here and he's got a distinctive broken nose. His name is kent, uh, like william kenzie um So we now find out thanks to this connection. Oh, there's an off-duty cop here gone in the club. Okay Uh, and then when she goes down into the super duper club We see that there are a lot of high ranking like police and government and city officials in this place We got police officers We got politicians members like the bank of gotham The da well, that's yeah, that's the most important one the the da is here So again, are we dent is that? No, it's not hard. His name is fringy. What does da mean for those in the audience who don't know the district attorney The district attorney of gotham. What does the district attorney do fringy? Yeah, fringy. He he he'd be like the like the lead I don't need to laugh about it He'd be like the lead in terms of prosecuting Cases for the state criminal cases Like he's the one who oversees it. There'll be other da's underneath him who like worked the cases, but he's ultimately in charge super duper important person um He in fact, he may well have uh, he may well have been involved in the the maroney, uh drug bust Um, I just point out a long time ago. This movie has maroney and falcone while the no until she had maroney and falcone It's like hey that confuses me Yeah So Macaroni the next batman reboot will but will have falcone and marone Falcone and marona Maroney and falcone. I guess The names just gonna get progressively shorter until we have More and foul Yeah, so this The the amount of people that he finds out are here in this place And gives the seeds in terms of the corruption within the police and the state Well, not the state the city Uh Like all of that he's able to find out because he's got that connection to uh to selena Because I did you mention the an aspect of the the the bionic I Think he has a computer that basically will scan your face and in seconds it will tell you your name and your occupation That only works with people on who've got their face registered with the police, right? Is it worked on the the police's facial recognition the police are well and the da as well No, as in like um people the police would have a register of I think was the implication It unfortunately, it doesn't work like uh like a disney production Where it just scans to make sure that you have a face and it lets you know that yes This person does have a face. I'm imagining that that's actually a gadget that bruce has is that it scans you Is that yep, that's a face They've got a face. Yep, they do too. Yeah, she's like, what are you scanning at him? No, that guy right there's people here that might not be a face selena. You have to get close And then they have a discussion as to whether hats or clothes or accessories and they just get distracted and um so uh Yeah, there's uh she uh Bruce like uh, no look at him like actually go talk to him. I need like his face. I need to see that you're talking to uh, That that's the da um But by doing that, uh, he decides he wants to have a chat with selena um, which actually is super helpful anyway, so uh, he uh, she sits down talks with him and then he uh now now I will say Bruce makes the observation. Oh man. He's like high off of the drops. He's super high I don't think that that is a good enough explanation for how I agree. I agree incriminating it. Well, no, it's not necessarily incriminating but very Secret information with someone you've never met before when you it It can work, but you have to work harder for it. Um, if someone's drunk or high They will probably be more likely to let slip information. They wouldn't already have However, you have to work Towards it. You have to be subtle with the questions you ask And you have to lead them on in a way that isn't obvious and direct Whereas you'd never get them to open their mouth before but now you sort of you have a chance There are little openings in there and in their in their mind that you could maybe take advantage of but Wasn't impressed. They do was not impressed at all with this here. Selena's dialogue There was particularly a lie. They they the film thought it was Achieving something when it shows it put a hand on his knee and then say so about this rat a rat What are you doing? That looks so obvious Yeah And if not to the da who's maybe high as a kite the people around him If any one of them isn't High as a kite they'd be like, uh, what is this woman doing? So you've never met before the first interest is like, hey, tell me this You literally just described that if this was found out it could destroy the entire city that she's like so Who that sounds fun. Tell me more about that. I mean, it's it's so it's so suspicious that even the girl sitting next is like Oh, that's what got that russian girl in trouble. It's like, oh man That's exactly who's the latest looking for? Yeah I A lot of people saying things convenient to the people hearing them around like People just happen to be an earshot of things that they really really really benefit from hearing Yeah, and so um, and isn't there a certain element of luck just the fact that all of these people are here Yes, I was just about to say that. Yeah They're all here. They all go clubbing. They all Or a lot of them do drugs, you know, well, you can be corrupt without going clubbing and doing drugs enough Well, to be fair, I would consider this a huge like risk. Let's say I am corrupt. I'd be like I ain't going to the fucking club penguin Yes The fact that he says like, oh man, I'm nervous about everything that's going on. It's like, why are you here? Yeah, like it's the do drugs. I don't think that the da afford to do drugs at home I think there is an aspect to this too where I'm wondering there doesn't seem to me any attempt whatsoever for These higher ups the da and the stuff like that to Like be subtle about them being there they're at You know like the like I understand. Yes, there's a lot of corrupt cops and stuff but the cops weren't at all involved in the media learning about it and public opinion and stuff like that I I would have appreciated a little more subtlety and these characters going Like like when she said, oh, you're the da and he's like, yeah, yeah Yep, that's me. It's like, oh man Oh, this is that is the exact opposite of a thing you want to be told if you're the da in a place like this Yeah, while while high as you, right? Wow Like he gotta go he of all people should understand this his whole job. I'm saying that's what I'm saying That's his job um But like he's high. All right. It's okay And he didn't seem brazen about it. Like, uh, no one can touch me, you know, I was nervous. He was incredibly nervous Which means why are you talking? I it's it's the drugs. All right. You just got to accept that um but then uh But but the the girl who says oh, it's that russian thing Selena decides to follow her and Bruce not happy about that She don't want to say anything but then it's like, hey, what's going on here? Why are you all fighting and it's like oh forget about it. It's it's the penguin but more importantly, it's falcon Right there. Oh my goodness gracious. I'll come in the big crime boss And it was interesting like john toro playing him because I just associate him Yeah acting playing goofy people, but he's a very serious if not menacing person in this film Oh, yeah, he's uh, oh, yeah, it's great all the acting choices in this. I really liked I don't think there was anyone who stood out as a bad choice Everyone I was like, yeah That's all right. Yeah The the main thing we pull from the conversation is selena is not particularly comfortable around falcon um And then she goes in the bathrooms like now we're done. We're not working together pulls out a little eye thing and uh, that's it um And then she leaves to go home um, the da's have we sorry if did you uh We're we're stressing that we really learn here and this cements the idea that the police Yeah, the police are corrupt. Yes, but also in terms of selena and The batman These two have very differing goals and why they're invested in this Selina wants to find out what happened to onica That is her primary concern And that man wants to uncover them Well, and once you've seen the film you'll know there's something that would have triggered the fuck out of her With what they were talking about without batman realizing everybody's like you have a relationship with falcon She's like i do not have a relationship with him. It's like You want there's like wait, there's something more going on there that like and and there is uh Which becomes quite interesting Mm-hmm Well, I think to emphasize how important this particular scene is in terms of what's happening This is super important information in terms of instilling in bruce's mind That he needs to think about the corruption within the police like he's got a lot more and specifically in connection to falcon specifically falcon It's uh, it's super important. It's super valuable information Um, and it helps him in terms of instilling the idea that there's a rat He could have found out other ways I can believe but damn and this is all information that he gets through the connection to selena Um, which all stems from that coincidence. It's like, hmm um, and another reason why you need to think about that is because Uh, the da gets abducted that night by the riddler So like if like within the hour it seems like when he leaves. Yeah, it is Ooh the timing so yeah, like if that showing up like a little bit later Or he had met selena and they went there like a few hours later or the next day Then uh, the the stuff that he learns through the da is lost forever Um, he could figure it out another way, but like damn the story is radically different without that Without that through line Yeah, it there was a lot just to be very clear here There are many instances where if a convenience does not occur. This is a radically different plot Mm-hmm I think that's interesting to think about where where it stems from and uh, how and I guess as well Seeing how the pieces are aligning in a way to uh help out the protagonist In a sense like the story is coming to help him out Um, there's just something to think about that's all Yeah, do you think they'll have penguin a monocle in in his maybe Maybe Maybe I'll give him two and he can have bionicles The da is already dead. What are you talking about? No, he's not that's when he's been captured He's he's got a while before he's dead a good 10 Do stuff And if you mean that he was always going to be targeted, that's the point I'm making This was when it was going to happen regardless of what bruce was doing Um, yeah, everyone's gonna die. So this is something that will become clearer later But maybe it's worth noting now. Anika doesn't really have anything to do with the riddler's plan She is aware of the information that the riddler is aware of but he doesn't care about her in relation to her knowledge about what they're doing um Unless I'm mistaken, but I'm pretty sure I'm not like I think you're right I don't know. Yeah, I don't know where You're the riddler how she factors into it. So from what I gather all the the riddler knows is that she is uh, the mayor's Mistress and that by putting her out there that embarrasses her But like otherwise she doesn't factor her personal life Yeah, her her work her personal life who she knows what she does her hobbies Her favorite faction and starcraft all that stuff. It doesn't matter. It's all just it's not relevant Well, so the reason why I'm saying that is because it's something to keep in mind as we progress her awareness of uh, her awareness of the conspiracy Is not related to the riddler's awareness of the consp- conspiracy. That's a good meme um It was yeah, it was it was a good um Well, uh in any case the next scene as I go up to uh where the bat signal is uh bruce meets with um With uh with gordon and he's basically talking to him now about how there's probably corruption in the city That's something we need to be thinking about Um, but perhaps the riddler stuff is connected to the the corruption within the city Um, that's about it for that one. Uh We then see that bruce is in his little suit ready to go to the mayor's funeral Um, I mean, it's a normal size suit. It's probably uh, yeah, I suppose it's a normal size suit. Yeah fair point Good spot. This is our only public appearance of bruce in the film, right? Yes, I I think not well pretty much. We're told about the funeral one, right? Oh wait, what do you mean? I think he talks to the investors or the bank people, but that's off-screen Yeah, I guess it doesn't yeah, but yeah, it's not really public but um Also, are we I'm assuming we're not skipping it. It's just uh, oh, is this Which is it's the same where alfred and him? Have the second yeah, we're up to that same Oh just um, I I really I don't know It's like I'm playing my hand so hard It's like I really liked the moment where the the cuff links thing because I was I was I was getting those Pieces of what I really want out of their relationship and I was like Yeah, your father gave him to me and you got to have your cuff links Yeah, you're a way he's like helping his Einstein who forgot to put on pants that day There is an implication as to whether or not alfred should be considered a wane like the By the you know, there's dad had the the cuff links the wane cuff links and it's just and they mean a lot to alfred It's like I really like these pieces slivers. I want to eat them up Like when uh, at the end of the at the end of the third film when ray says I'm ray ray wane Ray when you may refer to me as our dubs Um in terms of the plot relevant stuff in this scene, um strictly for the mystery, uh Alfred has been working on that second cypher. Um the the basically the the It's the the cypher gives uh Like uh in spanish like l rata like You are l rata Whatever it's like rat with wings that is that is what they Believe that interpret uh, that that's what it says Um, which we like to find out is kind of incorrect um Or you immediately feel like that is incorrect if you speak spanish Yeah How did they translate it this time around? Uh, I can't quite remember exactly how they translate it. It was something. It's just the cypher Rata, um, oh, I thought I thought mollumet like how did he figure it out? Well, so what i'm asking is they had the spanish Did he put it into a computer did he ask someone or did he work it out himself like what was the Or was it just something he guessed from reading it Uh, he figured it out like he worked on it and then got it Well, because like if you had access to google is the idea that the the thing he used was didn't quite get it right Or they read it wrong. I can't no no it was that that was um, no it was that riddler wrote it like that. I'm pretty sure Like oh, yeah, I think what it was was that the way that they were reading into it was a misunderstanding of the clue um That the url because I guess we're jumping the gun what they needed was url Uh, they needed to piece that together url and then rata lada or la rata Because that's that's the url that they use later on but he thought he read it in its totality as it was um I think that was that was the misunderstanding Then there's like there's one symbol in the cypher for this because it's not a straight translation of like english letters to You know Other letters is it so it's um, yeah, I think so there is one cypher for the sound l You are el no yeah We we shall come back to that later um Url it then heads off to the funeral and we see that there are some protesters there who's like the riddler Like uh, just as mentioned hour into the film at that point Yes Yeah, that's uh, there's a long movie We got a lot lot going on um But I mean this this is where we get I guess the clearest idea of like the public Perception of bruce that it's like he is reclusive But everybody kind of knows who he is and pays like there's an awareness of him Uh in the world, but he is not particularly active as a participant in it Yeah, I'm something. Yeah So isn't it isn't even like people know him, but he's not like this. Oh, yeah, it's bruce wine. Fuck. Yeah We love that guy. It's more like oh look it's bruce wine Right. Well, all the journalists want to ask him questions because yeah, he's really not accessible um This is that opportunity to talk to him because he's never out Yeah, no, no, I was trying to say he's not like the super popular Guy that's going around being like no, no, no Yeah, curiosity would be probably the good way to describe it. There is no billionaire played boy, uh persona here um What I really like about this scene is just um is that um bruce This is look this is what firmly established is bruce of the reckless and we see how Socially awkward he is how he doesn't really know How to interact with people at this point because part of his larger character arc is him learning um I suppose the place of bruce wane in his life right now. Um, he's because he's not yet the swinging playboy Um, uh billionaire um bachelor. He is he doesn't really know How to he doesn't really know, you know the the place that bruce needs to play in his life in the same way He's still kind of figuring out what batman is for that matter. And I think that I think Showing showing that he's not there yet here. Um, it did quite a lot for me as far as his um character was concerned Yeah, I agree um, I think I think it's uh It's again, it's intentional that like the bruce wane part has been totally left to the wayside and it's all batman all the time essentially um, because he's very out of place in this setting um And he's still doing a lot of detective work while he's out here trying to piece things together Um, yeah, he can't turn batman off. No Well, I mean it's it's said later, but like he batman is who he is um And it like fully The important part uh In the first part of the scene is foul cones here. He thought he saw selena, but it wasn't her someone else But it foul cone is here and uh penguin Um And foul cone is being real nice to bruce like oh, hey, I remember you as a kid your dad saved my life He was a cool chap um Something else that's important that's mentioned though as well as uh, like bruce makes the observation Oh, you don't like leave your place very often, right? Like you're usually hanging out in your little club. You don't come out Um, but this is a special occasion Uh, it's just worth keeping in mind They go inside and um Like bruce is just paying attention to sort of these observers and then he's there's a guy sitting next to him Who's like, ah this city sucks. Fuck this city nobody's gonna help us, you know screw them all. Um Does anybody remember who this guy is uh in terms of his relevance? Uh, is he the guy we see uh at the very end? I believe so. Yes Um Is he he's just there though thinking about all of this stuff and how everything sucks, but he's keeping an eye out um, but then Bella real the mayoral candidate Uh Talks to bruce is is this like i mean trying to reach you but nobody's you just don't pick up the phone Why aren't you doing more with your money? You know um So yeah, now we know it's like oh, he's doing like zero philanthropy Unlike what his parents did He's just like totally not even considered that aspect of his life in terms of what he could do Yeah with uh with the money We're just kind of gonna come back a little bit later on when he kind of figures out Because I think there's some subtext with him figuring out what batman is I think in Turn that kind that implies to me that he's also figuring out that he has to Be the flip the philanthropist He has to be using the wealth both as batman, but also to be Contributing back to the city Um as bruce wane like it because right now he's still in his edgy vengeance phase Well, I think this film is very much the the story of him growing out of that and maturing as as um as a person I think Yeah, I agree. Um, it's definitely on purpose Oh, yeah He then sees uh the son of the mayor sitting up at the front Um again And he also hears behind him commissioner gordon not not commissioner fun. It's just Jim Uh talking with the police about all of his stuff. Um, and then we see a detective was like, oh, it's bruce wane. Hey Now this detective we also see later on in the film too um And it is then at this point that uh, oh something's going wrong outside. There's a lot of weird noises Um, and then a car comes barreling What? Same time No, it's not. Oh, yeah, that would that would explain the aliens in the film. I did idiot. This is the dusting Same thing Uh, the the cub like drives through bruce saves the kid um And all the police like get out and we find out it's the da tied up with a bomb around his neck Uh, a letter on his chest that says When praise I really like when he looks up and everyone moves back except one guy Yeah, yeah, that was cool I was one of my favorite moments. Oh, yeah, good Super cool. Um Yeah, the there's a phone ringing um for the batman And we cut to some hours later. They've cleared the place out. It's getting a bit darker Uh police got the area all cordoned off and surrounded. They're keeping an eye on it They've sent in a bomb robot, but uh, there's batman coming on in to go answer the phone um And uh, I guess the police the police decide not to intervene because I guess they're probably worried about getting blown up Um, or I guess maybe like an interest in seeing what batman does in this situation I think this is before he answers the phone, right? This is this is before he answers the phone when they see him Yeah, just the part where yeah if I it it is cure there is an element of Uh, yeah, if there was more of a I I guess I wish we got more of the cop dynamic of Some people really like batman and some people really don't and a lot of are mistrusting of him That would allow batman to get away with a lot of this stuff Uh and knowing kind of why it'd be a little bit more clear I wish we got that component because we get a lot of scenes of you know cops hanging around and being in the Scene and you know talking to one another, but we never get that. Oh, I think he's kind of good Or oh, I think he's terrible. He's a menace. He's a vigilante. Yeah, but he does this but does that we never really Get that We have to infer it. Um, I guess I get made uncomfortable because I just feel like the film acknowledges Oh, yes, the police definitely take issue with him and then I'm like, uh-huh So what happens is a consequence of that and the film is like do do do He keeps to keep doing it nothing Yeah, because I'm assuming we're it's fair to I might have I wasn't sure how far up we are but just the um The bomb guy and then like all the police seem to react pretty like what when batman is coming in And but nothing happens, you know With that. Yeah, they just sort of let it happen when I wouldn't be surprised in seeing like a bunch of being like Batman's gonna fuck this up. He's gonna fuck everything up get him out of there Yeah, especially remembering this is an important person. This is the d.a Um, it's sort of bomb is neck like we gotta I just don't believe that they would be like, all right Let batman give it a shot. It's like no, I guess Yeah, because we have a bomb squad for a reason Giving it a shot man is the bomb squad I get yeah, give it giving it a shot means entertaining the riddlers game essentially, which I don't know that police would Game like who knows what he's up to really Um, I think it I think when when they get the explicit answer the questions and you won't die There is an element of oh, well, I guess we let him help him with the riddles But that means they've still you say help them with the riddles, but like they've just decided he will be the one not like Yeah, batman's controlling the situation. That is not like our prerogative No, yeah, it's if one we got to get to that point and getting that point is shaky Like once they're in it. I'm fine. It's just There there needs to be that element of the cops who are okay with batman being there Because he gets results and he's on their side um But we we don't get you you do have to infer it just because batman seems to get away with it Which is not ideal for storytelling Yeah, it's it's it's us sort of writing the movie in a way and Plus, I think I think it would just it would give a lot of nifty opportunities world building wise and to establish what people think about batman If the cops had strong opinions, which they would on batman's existence I'm like wouldn't and it seems to be one guy versus all the rest Wouldn't the solution here be for the phone to be called and then riddler says like until batman arrives Anyone who gets within x amount of space this man will explode something like that That would work here. I'll be I'll only talk to the batman or Yeah, I the batman has to be here if he's not here. Well, I mean is that not the inference that you would make of it to the batman and a phone? But it's like yeah, but if the cop So until they get an explicit threat the cops were not going to just let batman be the one to control the situation Yeah, yeah Um, I guess and and then at some point because it kind of spurs out of that control because they do a live stream for uh Like the riddler starts up a live stream for what's going on here. So that everybody can watch guys. Welcome back to efap Wait, what? Sorry, uh, jay, but we never left. Yeah, that's uh, that's um, I'm implying that the riddler is running an efap like sure Well, as they say he has woe over 500 followers No, that's fringe types Yeah, that's for the later weird like dark corner of the internet where a bunch of radicals are like planning their attacks and stuff like that But they he has like a twitch stream and comments are just flooding in Well, I like the view count they always do this in these things, but they don't understand how view counts ever work They're going up literally one one one one one one one all the way up and it's just like no, no, they're really laggy They always go Had updates every 10 seconds and it's just Can we talk about this movie just doesn't seem to understand social media at all We we'll get we'll get to there. We can talk about that when we start to get near to the end Because that is Damn it There was like sexy women Like no one's actually watching it except for bots meet local hot singles in your hair The classic twitch bot want to become famous click this link. That's totally not scam So my pussy puzzle Is that um, you could apparently post images in riddler's chat because one person pointed out Hey, he got this mask off of gotham. Um army supply. Yeah, those are winter. Uh, yeah, I've got one. I've got a I've got a surplus, um Uh, russian one. Yeah, I wonder if now it's the time to just meant they work. What does everyone think of this adaptation of riddler costume not character? I like it less. It's fine. Like fine fit the setting at all. Um You would have to be able to trade as a we've incorporated the green. Um, Yeah, the core color and the question marks. Yeah, the question marks It's not written on him, which I think would be the correct decision in this way there. No, that's not from his jacket Well on his jacket There's one on his jacket. I'm happy with that. He's not like covered in them or anything. No, that'd be a bit weird It seems to take a lot of inspiration from the zodiac killer or at least the movie zodiac Um And it's just so funny to compare him to Jim Carrey's riddler like this. This is a different vision. You can say that Yeah, and and they each have their place And I appreciate them both a great deal I think I was skeptical of the costume just because I I think when I saw it in the marketing I wasn't a fan of like the gim kind of costume, but then you see how it's um used in the film as um As being used in these live streams and the purpose for it and then I think I was fine with it. Um When I saw um, it's kind of purpose and intention All right. Yeah, I I like it So, yeah Batman answers the phone And he's given a speech about how it's like, uh, the city's corrupt and there's lies and bullshit And we're gonna get to the bottom of it. You know here live on on twitch Do you think it's weird that we say We say answer the phone, but generally when you pick up the phone you ask a question But I mean you've answered the phone's Thing and then you ask The phone Answer that's when you answer the phone and you ask hello. It's like well, it's just I think it's I don't know I just think it's strange. It's strange, but I'm fine. Why can't you see the phone being like You go, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's up? Hello? How you doing like that's you answering it, you know The phone is asking. Hey, are you there? Yeah, are you hello? Yeah, it's calling and and the card for the riddle There is no riddle. It's just answer the phone. Like that's what he's telling you Well, maybe the riddle would be answer the phone It's it just says answer Well, the what if that man just started saying things Here's the answer switzerland portugal spanish, uh, the battle of hastings He's got a riddle by the way, batman Yeah, he's pretty good All of them instantly Well, he doesn't have all the information to solve that was that was not fair Well, he has like all the no that with wings That was that was yeah, he doesn't solve them all but he he solves just And it was interesting because I it's funny. Uh, some of the way they would finish say again And I'm like, hmm. I wonder any answers. Okay Right Oh, there it is. Okay. Thank you a little more time to think about it. Yeah, because um Yeah, we the the basically the parameters of this little test is there are three riddles You get them all right and then the bomb gets deactivated He um batman is allowed to help you I guess. Um, and so the first one I guess Wow, I presume he is Because he does hope that's not a problem. Yeah, I think ridler didn't wouldn't mind if batman is He doesn't know Yeah, uh, and I guess uh because again, we keep not mentioning I I do like the riddles I can't remember all of the ones in this one, but the the first answer is justice Yeah, I thought it was I thought it was love Do you mean you thought the answer to the question? I thought it was love I thought the answer for the first one was love and I think it works Was when he gives the um the actual question I thought like I wonder if several things could fit this not just justice But then again, I guess that doesn't stop it from being a riddle or anything Yeah, in the theater, I do wonder if it in the theater. I was saying, oh, I think this is love But it's justice like, you know, I guess that works too and I think they both work I can't I can't remember what the specific riddle was But I specifically remember what I thought it was and remembering that I believed it worked so I'm curious if I don't know. I maybe I just want to hear batman say love start, but I wonder what would have happened is like, no, the answer was justice It's like, well, actually love actually also works because that's that and the writer was like, oh, yeah, I suppose so I see your point. How are you carrying on? I'm seeing someone looks off screen and he says judges Judges will accept love I uh, I see except love love is good to accept. I agree. I agree In chat someone said the deer was never meant to survive that scenario. It didn't matter how easy they were I disagree. I disagree the The riddle and worked on multiple levels in terms of if if batman has already figured out which he might have at this point the rat With the clues that he has he could have answered potentially and that would have been good enough for the riddler Um, because it's like oh falcon is the rat being broadcasted live to the world That may well like he could be happy with that and if he fails and If the da had said falcon And then blown up I would have been like, oh, okay But I was expecting riddler despair him if he actually gave the answer. I expected him to yeah yeah, um But but of course he doesn't and uh, yeah, he he blows up Within like an inch of batman Yeah, that one was this is this is one of many examples. Unfortunately the film of substantial plot armor Cases this is this is is this the biggest plot armor. There's one of the one I don't know if it's because of the other one. I don't know. I'm gonna see on the other one thing There's another one. Yeah, there are two competing in my head There were two competing instances of c4 block in your face survived by character, but one of them is unarmored so Yeah, um god, he's so close to it. I remember thinking like dab, dude And he goes he goes fly it There was also the glider scene where he like Hit in the face With regards to this scene, I remember thinking why the fuck was the explosion that big, you know I guess it might have looked a bit awkward if batman ran away from him It was about to die kicks him No, but I think I think the writer's thought process was it needs to be big enough that it knocks him unconscious So he can wake up Yeah, just to get that scene in the jail. So I want to try to say it doesn't seem like riddles explosives are very powerful I assume I assume that's a sarcastic comment because like it blasts him across the whole room like um And his explosives later on are certainly potent And I don't know sarcastic, but I just want to clarify that level of force in your face like Matt yeah, the heat and the concussive force and the it's not good So I just don't know why they don't make it like duck or hide behind this Cape or whatever like something like yeah, like alpha react another thing Just slot in A little bit later, but man riddler must have been like, oh, no This has all gone wrong Exactly. I never would have wanted this to happen considering what we find out later. I don't know if I should say yet Yeah, yeah, well riddler should be destroyed. This is terrible. What's just happened Also, I've had I've had a thought as well based on riddler's reaction at the end Should he have not been surprised by batman saying who is the rat? Or does he expect at this point that he hasn't figured it out? I guess he thinks oh Hmm, you know what I mean because later on he's like, oh, it's clearly you need help Is it are we supposed to be really good faith and assume that batman? He thinks batman's trying to coax the da to say it even though he knows it. Maybe maybe maybe Could be it Yeah, maybe yeah, I could yeah. I I I can believe that Because he's he's telling him to say it say it. Yeah, so maybe that could be yeah Yeah, I think I think we can be good faith in that but he gets knocked out and then he wakes up in the police department Like all right. Come on. Take off the mask now. They probably should have taken it off already I actually consider this a significant issue For the film. Yeah, not only do I believe the police would never be stopped by gordon saying don't do it I think gordon would do it. I think gordon would be like this guy needs medical attention I'm sorry. Your identity is not more important than your life. Like we need to save you Plus gordon's curious. He asks him before is like, you know, who are you? Are you ever gonna am I ever gonna learn who you are? There is that curiosity element that he has I just think that like I would do it for batman. I'd be like mate. You've been blown up You're out of I don't even know if you're dying in your life somehow Like we got to get you to the hospital right now. Instead they take him to like your brain interrogation rooms table Just plop him on it. It's like, what are you doing? Yeah, this is not what would happen You're about to stand up time as well. There were many opportunities to take it off From getting him into like an ambulance or a police car. Take him to the prison putting him there EMTs would do it. They wouldn't even ask. They'd be like, yeah, we're fucking They would think you're fucking joking. If you're like, no, he has to defend his identity They'd be like, shut the fuck up. We got to save his life. Like what are you doing? He was he is miraculously not dead right now Count your blessings It's weird that the movie treats the explosion not as a serious injury that he has sustained But it's a magic knockout button. It's a really annoying trope that There's not actually a magic knockout button that causes no other like calm to you Getting knocked out is inherently very bad for you. It's Just you know, someone gets hit in the face cut to black and then they wake up later like, oh That's that someone pressed the off button that I as a human have The magic knockout button. Are you referring to the g-spot? Isn't the g-force spot He should be in hospital waking up with handcuffs to be honest with you as well Yeah, he wakes up right when they're about to take it off as well so that he can have us a little like Not in the hospital by the way, they bring him straight to the police station. That is not what would happen wild And a little salt in the wound His face isn't even bruised. There's no blood or anything. He's just He is not bruised and he's not got bruised way. No, he gets up off the table real fast He's totally ready for brawling. It's like, are you like disoriented and like, oh, fuck. What the fuck happened to me? Ah, you know, go to have a concussion No, at least it isn't a shotgun to the back Um But yeah, they has a little altercation with the police Um, I forget the guy's name is the I think is you see the new commissioner. Is he like the captain? Yeah, I think he's one rank below commissioner Right because he was there when the commissioner was but um, he fucking hates batman, which is like God damn another super high ranking individual who despises you and considers you a vigilante And yet you're able to do the things that you do with these police. I don't know Oh Yeah, because there is a bit of a brawlish and they're like, oh, we can get you on assault in a police officer and then Um, Jim pens into the wall. It's like, all right, give me a minute with this guy It's like, how are you sticking your neck on the line for this guy? And that's all right. Conno Neil is like the actor, right? Batman gives in response to that Oh, when he says we can get you on assaulting in an officer and he just says you can get you on assaulting three Oh This is uh, he plays he was in uh, he was in Chernobyl. Uh, conno. Neil. Yeah, he See the uh, the The guy that the guy of the guy Oh, yeah, no, I was he did play the guy. Yeah, he has a very distinctive scratchy kind of voice Yes, everyone in the in my theater laughed when he spoke All right, I was who is it would prompt me and it would be me and his voice was really funny to me. I'm sorry It was very funny. It's a funny voice. Yeah I I I guess I see why people would think that I I don't find it funny But I could see how people would think it's funny. Yeah I think the more I heard it the more I was like, is that really like, uh, yeah Okay, um, so, uh We uh, uh Yeah, they give him the room they give him a minute and uh Jim and batman do like a fake. Yeah, we're getting in each other's face fighting But they're actually conveying information quite like that. I yeah. Yeah, that's yeah They're having a conversation but all of their expressions and body language points to an argument is pretty cool. Yeah Yeah, it's nice to see some cleverness, you know in a film where I think it could be used more And um, you know, I was just talking about, uh, you know corruption and like the Gotham police department You got to be, you know, careful about it And then the guy who works at the opportunity cop in the bar who is quite significant He strolls in at that moment so they can get a look at him now that is convenient But I don't know how consequential it really is that he shows up there It just it's just a reminder of an important person, I guess Um, so I don't I don't know how big of a deal it is. Um, it's fine. I think yeah And to be fair, I would argue. Maybe it was A simple tweak. He's just there. Just make him there. He was there the whole time. Yeah, instead of coming in at that moment Yeah, I think I think there are a lot of simple tweaks you can make to the story that would help out a lot Like that you've got a good amount of stuff that just needs a little amendment a little fix a little Change and then it becomes a lot more. Um And then it's like you couple that with the stuff that is just well written things that are cool like the you know any given Riddle or anything like that. It's like, yeah, that's um, it feels like the you can make these fixes Um, but in any case, yeah, it's like, all right Here's a key so that you can get out because at this point Jim realizes that he's not getting out of here. Um The peaceful way. He's got it. He's got to get the hell out um, and then batman punches him And escapes the police station and I really like this dude that I think it's important to note that it was a pre-agreed-upon punch Yes, um that like And it's it's agreed upon in a very net. It's like a very cool fun way as well where Um, gordon says, you know, I'll give you the key and batman says You're gonna get deep shit for this and he's gonna say, well, no, won't you punch me in the face? And then it's just like, oh, well, I see what's going, you know Hmm. Yeah, I still yeah, I take some issues very nice quick exchange With with that exchange. No, I like all the exchange. I think it's great But I think this should have been The end of batman being able to have any connection with the police Uh, correct. Yeah It's over now because you yeah, this is 100 percent This is the out I would also argue that jim should be in trouble if it was like he was punched like he was he vouched for batman So it's like your credibility is is pretty through the floor like you just fucked up and he's escaped. Thanks to you doing this Or at least be lucky. The only thing that you're punished with is you getting punched I wouldn't be surprised if you got demoted for this like this is big Good. Yeah, there's a big deal. Yeah, somebody who we now perceive as being very dangerous is uh, is on the loose He's probably at least not first in line for the commissioner position Probably not But yeah I guess it might change towards the end, but for the time being I actually do like the escape itself though I I find it. I find it just fucking runs the fuck. Yeah. Yeah, I really like it It's it's something people point out like in the dark night, you know trilogy batman will just disappear at the station I like that we actually see him like run into trying to get the fuck out I like yeah, but he reaches the roof and goes toward the edge. He goes Like yeah, like that bat is human It's it's really high up. My armor will not protect me from this fall Well, no, no, no, it's not best scar. I just like he has to work really hard to get out I just like that we see that he's vulnerable. Uh, yeah, he's it's not graceful. It's not like plan He's just like oh, oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. Fuck shit. Fuck. Yeah, like run run run run run run run run There is no plan except to run I particularly enjoy the grapple hook up all of the staircase. Yeah Yeah Rose just running like oh, he's there. Fuck. But what could we do about it? Well, and also I I really like the fixed shot that we have like from uh from the From like the the hook down on on batman as he's going up. There's a lot of cool shots I really like the escape from the music. Yeah, we haven't really talked about a lot But there's a lot they're legitimately is a lot of really good shots and visuals I think we open with them You just have to believe us. Okay chat because we can't show you it I mean, I feel like we talked about The opening scene had a lot of great shots and we're about to get to how the sequencer has a lot of great shots So, you know like with arcane like I can keep pausing and showing all of them Like I I do wish we could do it with this but there's no fucking way Yeah, because They're really cool and they're often used Narratively to serve some sort of purpose. It's these things that it's kind of hard to remind you because like I said I do really like this movie and these are the elements that I think tie into it But it's kind of hard to talk about when you're just going through the plot This film doesn't seem in in the vein of Aesthetics and the shots this film isn't like jerking itself off. It's not no Like oh, look at it doesn't insist upon Yeah, yeah, it's not It's not really hoity toiter. You know, it's it's it's displaying an actual like quality For it not for its own sake, but because it's Like it's just it's a good-looking movie with good shots and it's it's not indulgent. Maybe that's the word Yeah, it's not being indulgent. It's a little indulgent Just a little bit. No, you don't think the end of the car chase scene that shot's a little indulgent You don't think so. No, we can talk about that shot. Uh, how about we save it for when we get there? I'm actually gonna side with cap. I do think it's a little bit indulgent Oh, yeah, I think this film is very aware of how it looks I Can go with a little bit I don't know what I want to like if you've achieved a really great shot You know like and it's super cool You know, I would say it knows it knows it's cool But it's right. I agree cap. I do agree with what you're about to say there Um, but we I guess we can talk about it once we get to that shot Sounds good. There's a lot to talk about there And on your point that the escape is awesome. I completely agree for any except for the last right right up until Right at the finish line. He goes for a glide and It's a yeah Nice, I guess I guess no say what happens first He goes up the roof. He turns on his little glider And then he he jumps off and he glides. We got some really cool It's like a wingsuit for those listening. Yeah, it's yeah, it's His cape and his outfit sort of like wrap around him and it turns into a wingsuit Essentially that he wears I felt like that was the film's way of saying Yeah, you know what realistically speaking he'd have one of these He wouldn't have just the two wings that go out and he'd lie like that. No. Yeah, he doesn't fly. He falls with style This um, this this film is the most grounded Batman film I I would say at least in terms of what it's trying to do Now, of course, when he's gliding Deploys his parachute to land on a bus it snags on the bridge and he smashes his head against a steel bar Things I guess to go over here. Like first of all, why the fuck did you deploy it like that? You idiot Second being Do you remember how it goes? It snags and the momentum he would have it rams his head into the above bar like he's so dead He's all If I am the many hits the bus and then he hits the ground And well like yeah, that's like 40 meters and relatively that bus is a nice soft pillow I face palms This doesn't result in him like getting captured or anything. Why is this here? Yeah, the film recognized that this busted him up But it didn't recognize how much it should be Why didn't you just have them glide away and then land messily and roll something like that? Not slam into a bridge Just to correctly put this in perspective. It's like he got shot in the head. He's like, oh headache. You're like, yeah It's like we see we recognize he rejected him And once again and once again his face comes out Immaculate there's no bruising or anything This film has an interesting relationship with the human face In the sense that it doesn't seem to recognize that when concussive force is applied to the face Things tend to happen to it outside of it. Just hurting a whole lot Yeah, like I I get I get the impression that yeah, their goal was to say see he's not perfect It's like I appreciate that you didn't need him to slam it to a little bit guys Like just dialed out. I like why again? Why this way? Why this is relatable? It's just like you or me Yeah, we've all been there. You know mondays I like he crashes on the floor and I'm like, oh, so they're doing like a thing here Where he actually doesn't escape and that was an intense scenes like but because of this the police You know this happened within view of the station So that obviously gonna get him now and he's actually gonna need serious medical attention and he's on the floor And he's this next stage of this film We're going to see him under arrest more properly and they'll probably I'll mask him and oh no, he just walks away. Okay I am embarrassed If I like handed the film at this point like you know if we're not allowed to tweak It's like you could just you cut it after he's flying down. Yeah the shot of his face You could have the music he flies and then we cut to the next scene because we know he escaped Glides away exactly He needs like they show him busted up after they see it It's like yeah, because you know like he had a brawl with the police. You know that could have done that Yeah, I'm the explosive in this case What if he flew into a bridge What no he would have he wouldn't have done that that would have been stupid So yeah, that that's not great Uh, I think that did affect me at a decent tat I was thinking about it for a few more like tens of minutes after it Had happened because I was just like that was so absurd And I don't know how you miss the explosive onto me seems more reasonable in terms of how they ended up creating it This one I was like you deliberately made him Fucking crash headfirst into a bridge at full speed. Why did you do that? I don't understand Someone had to animate that And you didn't have to A stuntman had to die so that we got that shot A little respect, please. No Cuban did this. This is this is CGI Oh, oh, oh, oh really so So I was fucking around. Oh, okay. All right I said, oh, what's actually stuntman who flew into a bridge? Oh, no, I know that but I'm just You need to look up the list of stuntman. He would kill making this film Do it. There was no well, maybe in the credits of them. They used like 12 of them on this scene alone Yeah, it was really controversial. It's like a prestige. It's total. It's total devotion to the craft, you know Yeah, the end credits where they listed the stuntman did look like in memory of I'm sorry. Is this a meme in chat? What's wrong with the bridge crash though? Really? Are you leaving? Please be a meme I choose to read that as what's wrong with it really though You mean except all the things we just missed it with a giant grid. I hope so Yeah, it was all practical and we found out after the stunts that Robert Faze cannot know why Wait, that doesn't make check in 2022. That is kappa Oh, man. That is definitely kappa. Well data side. I'm pretty sure that wasn't actually something he uses Um guys, make sure to save some of Ross whenever you say something sarcastic, okay Oh, what's so good about that? The next scene is uh, they um, he meets up again at the bat Signal place to meet up with Jim and uh, they basically settled at this point. It's like, yeah, there's corruption within gcp We need to like Try and figure out how to get to the bottom of it and they make the decision that they're gonna tail the penguin Later on and see what he's up to Uh, because he at this point is like rat with wings being a penguin. That could be it Which is I think that's a totally fair deduction. You think it's reasonable. I know a guy called the penguin I think it's fair, but I also feel like at this point they should have thought of bat by now That is what came into my mind Yeah, penguins don't actually have wings. No, they have are they wings or are they they are wings? Yeah, hold on Ostriches have wings. Yeah, they all have wings Um, they just don't look like wings. Yeah, I like is it? I'm fit I'm fine. I actually would have preferred it had we gotten rid of pigeon and bat and then they went with penguin But we went with penguin before bat and it's like, okay Yeah, I guess it's yeah, like a rat with wings. It's like man. I feel like a bat, you know, like that's Like we're getting pretty close. Um, so fringy when you heard rat with rats with wings Did you instantly think about grand theft auto for? um Is that was that a Damn, I'm blank. Was there a reference? No You should be thinking about the pigeons Wait I'm lost. Sorry. We'll do we'll hear here. We'll do that. We'll do the grand theft auto So gta. It was like a collectible thing. There were there were pigeons scattered all over Uh, the city and if you shot them then it would be rats with wings eliminated one out of however many there was So that was like a collectible to find all the rats with wings and shoot them Right and then molla said the simpsons. What uh, hugo the other child that belongs to simpsons family He's showing bot that when they get sewn back together as conjoined twins It'll be fine and his example is a pigeon rat and it's just the rat that lies around because that's to a pigeon Ah It's really funny Because it tries to get out of a window as a pigeon But the rat hits like the thing and then it falls down the rat tries to go through a hole The pigeons head hits the That's That's awful life form. Oh, yeah, it's terrifying, but it's done. No, they'll they will learn to work together And they will become greater than each of them individually symbiotic What once they learn each other it's like the two-headed dragon from dragon tail. Oh, it's like quest for camillot It's like that and eddie broth, you know Yeah, or cat dog I'm running out of yeah. I'm running out of two headed two brain creatures I didn't like cat dog I didn't mind cat dog. It wasn't Usually, yeah, it wasn't like the exposure to life had to cat dog makes me think that it's almost certainly like a horrifying nightmare Yes, oh, I can get you scientifically accurate cat dog. Oh, I remember that I remember that do they share an anus? Are they each have their own? I think that's what the video is like a worm Concepts. Oh neat. Um, uh, in any case, yes So they decide to go tail the penguin and they tail him to a little uh, oh, no Oh my god To a facility Like near the docks or some industrial area And while they're scoping it out what they discover is Now remember moroni's operation that was talked about the drug bust as it turns out Uh, that you know, the drugs are still being widely distributed. Um, there was a big operation for these things um, and Batman suggests Jim says oh, they must have started back up moroni's operation and then uh, batman says or it never ended it's like, hmm um We're thinking and then then uh, selena shows up Uh now to steal some money Man timing. I guess he was following them too. Um, maybe But yeah timing. Um, and she takes out the twins Uh, and then opens up the car to get the money bruising Is selena being here more like justified? I think it's because she's trying to get the money. Um, yeah, and this is like an exchange where the money would be present And she would be here. It's more so the timing of it. Um Yeah, a little bit. Um In what sense do you know Like a half hour well 10 minutes earlier or later different things would be happening Well, it would be Well, all right, because it could be if she knows that this is a locate There's a few explanations either she told them or she knew that this was where the operation was And I think it might be more reasonable to know that this is where the operation was considering. Yeah, I think it's the latter. Yeah And if she knew where it was that makes it worse if she was tailing them That would be probably better in terms of timing, but if she wasn't Then she showed up at this moment She didn't show up earlier in the night and wait for them to get there and then get it Or alternatively she didn't show up later in the evening Uh to get the money. She showed up while bruce and uh Jim were there I guess something you'd say on their favor is she would have maybe they would have stayed there for a while And she would have turned up. I Yeah, because I figured that these things are actually scheduled these meetups for the criminals And so she would know when to show up for it. Yeah Like I don't think it's too big a deal. Uh compared to the other example. No, I don't I don't think so either now But she then goes in grabs the money Unzips it's like yes, there's the money and then she unzips the next bag and there's her girlfriend. She's been killed Oh, my goodness. Um, that she's right there. Wow. She's just there in the in there with the money Like you guys not want to You know to get rid of that incinerate it. Do you not have a because remember it's been at least two days at this point If I ever got my timeline right, it's been at least two days since she was kidnapped It's gonna smell you soon and based on um, oh, yeah, I mean she And she was probably she was dead before they kidnapped her essentially like once they found out that she knew the stuff I think she got killed and so they essentially just kidnapped the body We are jumping the gun a bit. Um in terms of the timeline, but yeah, it I I'm not sure that it matters for you for this thing though I don't think it makes sense that she would be here anymore. Um, no, they would not keep Yeah, they would not keep the body just hanging around for two days with money Like, you know Yeah, like why would you why would you have this with no dumb you you you would put throat incinerator Or you throw it in our corpses, you know Oh, you would you would feed it to your pigs or something but You wouldn't yeah, you wouldn't just hang on to it and keep it around I am pretty sure it's Unless I'm mixing it up because it because there was the first night when she met Selena And then it would be the next night was when she helped him So that's one night at least and then we have the next day with uh the um with um The da so it's at least two days possibly three um Damn, yeah Don't know about that I want to see the I want to see this movie but directed by guy richie Where he just embraces the crazy coincidences and runs with it And every and everything's just hectic like all of the characters the mobster is like that's happening They're like, yeah, fucking insane. Yeah chat woman's here. Batman's here commissioner gordon's here the mobs here. Oh, no and By the way, this is uh, this is important in terms of this happening because if if she wasn't in there, this is what leads Selena to realize that specifically that guy who worked the off duty cop that he was involved Yeah, and that's the thread that then connects there So, yeah, if if if uh, anika if she wasn't in the car Things become again very different Is a strange place for her to be considering the time and just logistics of it all And also just why would you yeah with the bags of money? Um, but yeah, it's the shock and then uh gunfire I've seen them, um I don't want you to understate Bruce is standing there looking And then he gets hit with a ray of gunfire from a machine gun and it goes sparks sparks sparks sparks all around everywhere That isn't his jaw and because yeah, you might be like, well, it's just not very likely It's like we're just mandalorian. It's the same fucking thing man. It's just like he's lucky Okay, and the fact that the the force of these bullets just does nothing It never does anything and I don't know that's just lame to me Yeah, one if you have if you have hard body armor fine But if it's soft you will definitely get bruised and if the helmet because you have we have mask We have bulletproof face masks that you can wear and it will save your life But you'll be done for the week You'll be you will have it a horrible bruise on your face. You will be alive and you will heal But it will you will be just knocked the fuck out and it will not be pleasant Mentioned but he covers his jaw. So he's shot at and then he reacts to it Um, so he's still lucky no matter how you like which is yeah And I don't know. I just find it more interesting when batman has to like weave and dodge around gunfire. I do Do you remember the the first proper batman action scene in batman begins? I remember that one still holding up He does a lot of I don't remember that one. It's been so long since I've seen that I just don't remember anything about that movie at this point. Damn The darkness a lot and avoiding shit. That's like ninja man Um, maybe maybe his helmet is bulletproof I so at this point I'm pretty sure he's shot in the helmet. Yeah Yeah, I I thought we already agreed on that that's why I thought I was pretty sure I remember a scene where he gets shot And it had specifically Yeah, I think I know I didn't say because I thought we grew a horrible person melon. Um, hey, what advice is always happening to me? The reason why I thought The reason why I thought it wasn't was because um at the end with the the shotgun Um, but but I guess we're just meant to assume it's like well, would it hit him elsewhere anyway? but we'll get to that um They're hiding their shooting gym tries to come in to help um And penguin's coming up like I'm I'm gonna get you whoever's there trying to take my money Um, but then when he rounds the car batman's not there anymore um now I did he I guess he just ran so like ran away and nobody saw it or Yeah, it's a bit of a teleport It seems like it would be hard not to notice him Especially when you consider we're penguin standing where all these men are standing and where batman was and where the car is Yeah, um But uh, but yeah, it penguins like oh no, and then he turns around and then we have a very very very cool review Imagining penguins saying oh no like you said oh no. Yeah Oh, oh no. Oh no We would know his internal monologue is just like that Question does batman know gordon is here Now where you're going well, I mean he knows that he's here. Yeah, he would have to right Because I both because they were talking on the radio I can't you know what rags I feel like because you you brought it up. I'll let you so this you end that thought So when I was in the theater watching this movie, this was the first big point where I was like oh batman no because when the penguin penguin leaves Batman goes to chase penguin Which means that he has left his friend with all of these gunmen who are showering his Sealment because a car is not really behind a car door, which is bad enough He's behind a car door and part of a car Who's being showered with automatic machine gunfire and he leaves him there to go chase penguin Oh batman no And let's be fair. This is not known by the movie. They don't have a moment of of them acknowledging Like you left me to chase him or anything. There's like no the movie thinks it's Yeah, gordon just shows up And next time they meet and I guess he survived That all that which is insane because again say what cars aren't bulletproof Cars are not bulletproof Severely outnumbered severely outgun. He should be dead as a result of batman's choice I think he should be as well. He has a gun. He has a he has a pistol and he is being assaulted at Upon by multiple thugs with automatic weapons and Again cars aren't bulletproof. So yeah, I think he should be dead here. Does he need to chase penguin? Really? Can he just find him later? Is it time sensitive that we go get penguin right now? It's a character thing Like oh shit my friend like because they should be like friends at this point I know and I just like you just sort of left him to die Like oh for sure. Yeah. Um like uh So can't we highlight in the it shouldn't even really be like it shouldn't be that it's not like the difference here is This is the one chance. I have to get information or save my friend. It's no no you can follow penguin another time help gordon Exactly. Yeah, you would think so. I don't see any reason that it's time sensitive that he goes and not only Follows him and tells him to wherever he's going but actively causes him to crash Like why was any of that actually necessary? It was was it a cop car? Those would be bulletproof I don't think would would they I actually that's actually maybe the doors will have a plate the so the doors might have a plate in them that's installed But that is Especially at the angle when he's trying to shoot him and he's got his body sticking up it is We go He's standing behind a car door those things don't go all the way down to the floor And can we just highlight when you google their bulletproof police cars? The answer is of course there are Because they make them specially but we're also we're talking about the average just on the beat police car right now Not an armored police truck. Yeah, it's Yeah, because remember when when the police are done with the car, they sell it to the public And they they take all the lights and things but That most of them. I don't think they're gonna have they're gonna be like armored. They're gonna be normal cars Well, and um, obviously the windows go out straight away like in this car That's at least some indication that they're not reinforced uh to take on bullets and Also, that's not something that batman would ever Leave to protect gordon. No, well, it wouldn't matter like if if batman actually said i left you because your car's bulletproof He'd be like what? It is yeah, this hurts and it doesn't just hurt because it really has an impact on batman's Negligence for his friend and that hurts his character a lot But this is a huge opportunity to present batman with having to make a choice Do you go get your very important week? We set up the penguin where he's like the lead that he needs he needs to get the penguin for the case Uh to stop the riddler's plan or whatnot or He can save his friend and he has to choose you think about uh in the film batman doesn't do a lot of like saving That's not that's not something he does a lot It's a bit later quite a bit of later Yeah, but but but for like a good period of the of the film it's not about saving So it's like that might be the opportunity to show that that that is the choice that he makes Like i'll i'll get penguin that's that's that's important now if jim dies then that sucks But like i gotta get penguin now worth planting a little seed by the way the uh overtly The penguin has opened fire of like an oozy possibly several Thousands of bulls out of like no hundreds uh the on on gordon That's the thing that's happened here Yeah, he's got a he's got a mac. Uh, he's got a like a mac 10. I think so yeah, we'll we'll we'll come back to that a little later Well, yeah, because uh now the Sorry before we get to the chase like selena grabs some money and then leaves um And it seems like the grooms are kind of dispersing but again i'm not like a It's still like it would it would it would seem to me that even if the goons are going to be dispersing that uh It's still want to you still yeah. Yeah, we've covered that then then the chase begins like batman is chasing penguin Visually, I think the chase is fucking awesome Usually it's very impressive. Absolutely. There's some fucking amazing shots Like the the shots that are locked on the wheels of the car. We get like those are really cool um And I at the end of the caveat to that though that I think it could do better to communicate what's actually happening in the scene I think it could do better But I actually think I disagree with what you were saying before that it does like a really piss poor job I think that we have enough information to understand the changes in what's happening Uh, that we can understand the progression Um, could it be improved a bit? Uh, yeah problem. I understand. I understand the progression of the scene. I just um I don't feel that I can't consistently have enough of an impression of where the players are in relation to each other Like I understand the important events and and how they happen and that they happen So I I'm not sure that I agree with that either. I think that there are It might honestly might just be that I have to watch the scene again if everyone's seeing no to this so so what we The the core progression is they're like chasing through a more quiet like uh industrial era and smaller Places, they're they're a lot more like next to each other and bumper to bumper And then they get on the highway they get split up with a truck Uh, so penguin gets a bit of a lead and then batman is gets on his tail on the highway They are on the wrong side of the road of the highway at first and then they cut over the correct side of the highway And then it's the trucks that blocked everything. That's the core progression of the of the chase I think that that's communicated pretty well to be honest Um, but there are parts where yeah, it gets a bit harder to keep track Moller, did you understand the like progression of the the scene the the car chase? I feel like I could be argued either way. I'm basically just listening to this one because I don't um I didn't have strong feelings either way on I I felt it was tense. It was an intense scene Um, but I'd have to rewatch it to give an opinion on this one I I want to get the opinion of someone who doesn't have a driver's license just to kind of I think you mean the the only one who's not an adult, okay? Yeah, I don't have a driver's license. If you ever visit, I'll teach you I don't I don't care. Honestly, I'd rather shoot guns of you Oh Another example as well and we'll combine the two and do illegal things Um, I got a convertible. It'll be really fun Something I like about the chase is that we see batman making mistakes and kind of bumping into things and and He ain't perfect at this. This is tough. He's he's not easy to to do this chase Um, but it was totally absolutely necessary Wow We've uh, we've got over that Yeah, do you want to just describe the complete of the scene that we can roll it back or yeah, yeah So so this is now yeah when I watched the film the first time I I was like, hmm so Uh penguins gets cut off by trucks. It's like, oh no shit batman's getting closer and then he he hits the brakes Rams the truck behind him. It starts getting out of control There is a massive pile up Now separating batman from uh penguin. We've got like tanker trucks and shit everything's fucking crashing and it's going insane Um, a ramp then forms through the crash Those are the words that have to be said to describe the scene Suddenly the spirit of evil keneval possesses the truck and creates a ramp To ramp through a ramp appears To ramp through a massive explosion Um, a huge explosion of fiery probably a lot of people got killed in that uh, in that crash Um, and then he he flies through and makes and hits penguins car and it just goes flying all over the place So yeah, the thought in my mind at this point is holy shit. That's a lot of people dead probably from that explosion A lot of carnage Here's the part that really fucks with b. I didn't it sucks to say because everyone adores the shot, right? The shot awesome. It's hard not to think about the screams of the background. No, no no cap. It is Fuck off This is I think this is the clearest example in this film of the story being beholden to the spectacle Absolutely, we we really wanted the shot of upside down batman walking through the ring with the fire on the back Red And we needed to get it and it doesn't matter how insane it is that like this thing caused a ramp that he could fly over Or that the chase itself happening is like iffy and then it creates a massive explosion And people getting hurt and killed that batman ignores and that the penguin did this and I guess we're jumping the gun There are no consequences for him for this He's not arrested or convicted for this massive pile up that he caused But he does walk like this was mandated for the trailer Um, maybe um, maybe ways to make it work. You can get the scene The other one would be you could make it work. Yes. There are tweaks that you can do I guess the problem is I don't know how you get the shot of the fire without batman trying to help the people Uh in the cars you can make it by happening to involve people, right? There's got to be a way to do that Yeah, maybe but that explosion is huge Correct. Maybe even a bit indulgent. Would you say? Uh, I not yeah, so that's one of it. I I like the shot a lot, but god damn, but I guess it's not that it's indulgent I think that the story breaks itself to make that shot happen It goes out of its way to make the shot happen and we don't really think about the consequences for it Good one define the indulgence in that way Like you're going so far with your desire for the shot that other things are falling out That's what well, that's when I when I'm saying like the story is beholden to the spectacle It's that your number one priority is I want the scene Um, regardless of how you get there like endgame has that problem constantly. I want the visual Yeah, I want the visual. I want the imagery. I want this particular scene But I don't care what the uh, what the what we do to get there I feel like they care more in this film than otherwise, but this to me is like a A significant example of damn man You really you bend the physics you bend the characters you bend it everything to make this happen And that's what we're looking for is bend bit. Yeah guard for a capital Just in terms of the the fact that penguin never faces any consequences for this neither does batman and obviously Penguin is the one who's most responsible, but batman could have just followed him I don't know. Very nice, dude. Yeah This is something that's a real police dude. Kind of responsible. Yeah, that's a huge issue Yeah, so if you watch you watch cops and Like like police stuff where they do chases a lot of the times police in the real world will be like Don't chase him because he's in a really crowded place And we don't want him going at super high speeds. So back off Don't give the criminal a a Don't make the criminal feel like they have to speed super fast through very dangerous places It's you know, it's it's typically been a big discussion in australia about pursuits as a thing that cops are even allowed to do because pursuits often lead to crashes Um, I remember I remember like years ago There was like a public debate in terms of like policy here about whether or not we should encourage or even allow police officers to Pursue in chases because once people chase to speed up and they start doing dangerous stuff And that it might be better to just let them get away rather than do a pursuit that could kill someone Um, I guess that man decides that that's not important to him which Well, so It's complicated. He doesn't have this is the scene where you have alfred in his ear Going yeah, calm the fuck down bad man like calm down. It isn't worth it This there's too like not even not to chase people but this specific chase where this guy's a maniac There's too many people on the road. He's going too fast You're gonna have to back off You got to back off and batman's like no, I got him. I got him. I can do this. So here's a thought I think you can very clearly identify the theme in terms of you know, how batman operates that at this point in time This batman is it like the way that he's approaching situations is flawed um It is to be a teachable moment Yeah, if the story is not of this as Well, so so let we could make more changes to make the explosion less severe Let's just have people get hurt by some pile up and we can still do the ramp. I guess we just can't have the fire Um, I don't want to do the ramp. Can we not do the ramp? Well, yeah So what ramp is shit. I hate it Not you too What I it's spreading is correct. So I think a point a point that I'm trying to make here is that You can have a reading of this film in this particular scene that this is in relation to the way that he's operating being dangerous and reckless I think you can read that the problem is that the story itself doesn't seem to is not what happened It's not recognized in the story in terms of the story's condemnation of any specific event Um, and I think that's why it's easier to believe that's like no This was just you wanted the shot and you didn't think about the collateral damage Yeah Huge collateral damage for a chase the read that I get from this The aspect of vengeance and this in this um, like in this movie that this aggressive vengeance sort of idea is that To me I get the read that it is saying it's more ineffectual than counterproductive And I feel like you could have gone with it, you know, like the other way where it's not that it's ineffectual Being, you know, this this dark Avenger But it can, you know, if if you are not very careful with that Then it will create more problems because people will get hurt around you And this would have been the scene to convey that But they don't Yeah Yeah, not not not great. Um Do we have anything else for the the chase or should we progress? I don't know how I feel I'm gonna test this one out. See whatever it says. Um What he does to penguin But easily have killed him Ah, yeah Fuck yes, it could when I was watching the movie. I was asking did did did penguin put a seatbelt on He must he did he must because he must had because he had he clearly is Because he is if you're rolling around like that Yeah, if if you are rolling around in that car and you are not buckled in you are being thrown around and out that vehicle Please wear your seatbelts. It's there to save your life in the event of a crash Like if you remember Just how the film goes penguin flies out then the penguin died. Yeah, please wear a seatbelt He's wearing a seatbelt at the end of the film He does some it was all under yes speedy and intense spins the boy was like he should probably be unconscious, right like Probably maybe um Yeah, I think you're generally okay in Like if you if you if you got your seatbelt on you should I think you'd be okay and conscious if you roll around like that um But without the seatbelt you are you're probably dead or severely injured I guess it just makes me worry because it's like there is a big moment in this film That makes it very clear batman's Very much in the rule of no killing and it's like but this action you take You you yeah, I don't know man. This is dependent on the person you're chasing having a seatbelt on which you don't know And even then it's not a risk you want to take And aren't you chasing him because you want to ask him questions or you should have won a seatbelt He brought this on himself. He brought this I uh, what's the we get access to a very good quality what I would like to see if he's got a seatbelt on because it's just uh Holy fuck if he doesn't I want penguin to get Penguin gets in the car and then as he's he clicks, you know, he clicks it That seatbelt on he looks straight at the camera and says safety first and then he drives off That's an extended you know The scene where bruise crashes into the bridge I wouldn't be shocked just before Just before the crash Penguins like don't need this and unplugged the seatbelt For no reason Oh, it's that kind of movie. Okay Oh, I did just have a funny thought like what if this scene was like Constructed um from uh in comparison to bvs So the question they were asking was not if Batman would be killing people But rather is he like mowing people down with machine guns? Is he sawing them in half as long as he doesn't do that that should be fine, right? Because as far as I know in the later parts of the film She is okay with the people he's fighting dying if it is of Indirectly him or through their own sort of um Well, we'll get there when we get there. We'll get there when we get there. Yeah I guess one one important thing I just want to bring it back to is that he Leaves Gordon to go chase penguin because it's clearly very very important to him that he can't get away because he needs to ask him questions and all that And what he does is causes a giant car wreck that could have killed him It's like that's what he left Gordon behind to do Yeah, Gordon died for this And good job By the way, I boot up the trailer just see if I could get get it from the shot in there I think you guys are gonna have to help me out. Is that a seatbelt? It looks kind of like one Uh, let's take Yeah Do I assume he's got the seatbelt on because he's just not flat out ejected from the vehicle Just PSA you should wear a seatbelt everyone They're good. You should yeah, you should seriously if you take anything away from this e-fap today It's that you should wear your fucking seatbelt It is designed to save your life in the event of a crash roll over And they do a really good damn job at that We have to check uh boy season two because I think The whole family get flipped in the car in the final episode and I think all I'm wearing seatbelts except for mother's milk and It means that he should probably be dead I think that's what we found Fun fact though, uh volvo Invented the seatbelts and they did not uh, they gave it an open patent copyright so that everyone could use it Uh It's good on them good, uh good guy volvo Um, yeah, so yeah, I guess I want to just clarify about this scene I think it's actually pretty drastic in everything other than production values. Basically Like oh, it's such a cool seat overall. Yeah, but like oh, this is damage. There's some big damage. We got here Um, yeah Batman and penguin are done like will building wise they are absolutely fucked they the what they've just done like it's The the idea that it's like, yeah, maybe shouldn't chase Batman. It's like he's a fucking vigilante. He's got no right He should be taken down for this This is not okay. Yeah, he's on a there is this understanding with the Batman character generally that the police Tolerate him because he gets results and doesn't get in their way And that he's he produces enough of a good effect that they put up with him being a vigilante and even then it's a Is it gray area that they're probably never gonna directly have a Official position on you know for the public and whatnot You if you have a batman like this There ain't no way there ain't no way One thing I liked was uh penguin causing this that being so happy with himself like I got you like I did it Yeah, I literally like He's so thrilled I like that he looks in his in his mirror and just sees the fucking bat my way of fly away. It's like oh Yeah, it's just that return to the fear. It's like oh shit like damn this guy There's nothing else to keep in mind in In regards to the police is that Batman really does want to have a good relationship with the police Because you know what happens if he doesn't the police are going to get in his way It's going to cause a lot of problems with his operation So it's within his interest to not do shit like this and get on the police's bad side. Yep But alas but that brings us to I'm talking to him. I'm like, oh, you're the rat and he I guess the to the offer that part is you're the rat. No, I'm not actually I'm not and then they they then they're like, oh, they're they're el rata thing and then he says no You obviously like basically you guys obviously don't speak Spanish. It's a lie rata Or uh, whatever the whole saying is and he's fluent. Yeah Um, yeah, but I mean in the united states, I guess I can expect that someone might be familiar with like I'm not sure that it's something that you need to be fluent to know either like It seems I word ending in a it's generally common knowledge More more than that's common knowledge. I think I think it's weird that batman doesn't know this and penguin I think batman should know this Um, well like that. It wasn't a mistake that you should have made I'm yeah, I think if you're gonna write it to any one of these three characters to know this be like probably batman Would it be probably batman? Why would we say that? Because I don't see my penguin would know it He's got very much different interests in life. Batman's like world's greatest detective I figure he's probably aware of a lot of things to do with different languages Um, I would expect penguin to know some Italian Yeah Yeah, maybe um, but but it is worth noting as well that um, it was uh It was like alfred who did it And I guess it would be does bruce have any reason to like doubt What alfred concluded based on what he was able to put together I was actually someone was trying to ask earlier. So does that mean had alfred used I don't know better translation tech this just wouldn't happen um probably sure I mean Because because he says like oh my spanish is not that great But I think this is what it says like oh, maybe we should double check Because like they have yeah, we're we're in we have internet, right? Yeah, and instead of going this is what this means, right? Well, uh, double check We have apps on our phones that can translate. Um, Well, we just talked about how it could very commonly be understood by a lot of people in american It's like, yeah, do you have a friend maybe? Some would do is that look there's a lot of things you could have done instead of going or senora Yeah, I guess No one can decree Here's an alien tongue He could have talked to riddler Straight away then if alfred had gotten it right if he had figured it out correctly Yeah, he would have been able to talk to him straight away Okay, doesn't he say in the beginning that like it's the wrong like he mixes up l or lob It's like, oh, it's probably just an accident Well, it's weird that they don't just assume it was probably deliberate because everything else has been so deliberate No, but so the thing is is that they uh, I think jim says maybe he screwed up and then Batman says well riddler hasn't made any mistakes so far And that was the thing that made them think url other than hitting me with that bomb, but sorry Wow, wow, but he hasn't made any mistakes with his riddles I thought that I thought that line about like he might have messed it up came earlier, but No, I think it was in that scene. He they're like, oh, maybe it was a mistake. Um, they said, yeah, they were they didn't make any mistakes Um, so far anyway with the riddles and then they think url and then Rattalada is the is the url And then they can have a little conversation with the riddler I mean, essentially awesome. Have you figured it out? I figured it out yet and they say we'll wrap with wings. It's is it penguin? He says, oh, that's interesting, but you're missing the it wouldn't be penguin because then it would be el rata lardo Wow That's dumb. Um Hey, I'm not saying this for any reason but lucky batman didn't mention in any part of that that he's Against riddler's ideas here Uh, what and the messages? Yeah, the back and forth he has with him is good thing that all of it can be read in a Light that is encouraging of riddler's goals rather than discouraging What do you think he would have written if he was more hostile? anything Could have been all kinds of things. Yeah, like like literally Uh, do you like do you think you'll get away with this or just anything at all that could have implied something like negative Is that something that he would have been compelled to write? Um, you would think maybe If something as broad as in any way implying he's not on board with riddler's plan Uh Could I just make the argument? He doesn't want to screw around if he's got this opportunity to interact with the riddler that he wants to play As straight as possible to extract as much information as possible I think the to have a conversation and no language to imply that is lucky Especially when batman's not intending to do that because he's not intending to hide that he thinks his plan is evil Yeah, sure, but I mean if if like being confrontational Run the risk of screwing anything up Or any implication at all as instead of just and especially if you don't want to get confused Wouldn't you want to be as a matter of fact as possible? So when he says like, you know, there's going to be a next victim The fact that you imagine all of the things you could say in response to that that would easily imply you're not on board Uh, yeah, sure. Um I can agree. I guess I would also say like what if he just wants to play at Australia's possible to get as much information Is necessary Again, so you can do that while also imply this thing if you're arguing batman's position right now in his head is I don't want to anger him But he like we are antagonists to each other like batman's perception of riddler and him right now Are that i'm trying to find you to stop you riddler's perception is you are my teammate And i'm slowly giving you the clues to figure out this whole thing Like you can be non confrontational while batman can give away The joke of batman interrogation it starts pretty non confrontational Apart from punching his hand, you know what I mean like they recognize their positions But they can still give language to he's like You're a you're a garbage who kills for money. He says that like in a very chill way I got you I assume the reason that um riddler doesn't just tell batman everything and He's even using riddles in the first place is just hidden as a character I'm not okay with other things and we'll get there yeah um, but then they they figure out it's like Uh, basically they get to the the clue orphan um Then then they go to an old orphanage that was um, so financed in part by uh, the wanes um Really quick It's it's really bizarre to me that he doesn't figure it out right then and there that he's talking about I figured it out right then and there Yeah, it makes It makes no sense to me weirdly for me that he doesn't go. Oh, I didn't believe it until Uh, this the the explosion happened because I was like But I I had it in my head that he'd probably figured out who who batman is And so I was like he's not gonna want to blow bruise Wayne. Um, but obviously that That was well, I'm just explaining my perception. But I was just like so that can't be it then Yeah, exactly. I mean and lots of many things that so like at this point in the film when you're watching At the first time around I think it is intentionally leading you to the conclusion that Riddler knows We you're getting a little hints now. We're get we're ratcheting up the intensity from bruce's pov In terms of the connection to him But yeah, they go they go to the old uh orphanage. It's really downtrodden. There's uh some homeless people residing in there And then they go into a room with a protractor Yeah, they're they're addicts to drop. No, I will ask you this though Now that we've arrived at this scene You have to take either one fictional batman world Drug, would you rather take drop or snake bite drop? drop Do you want snake bite? I remember that woman Uh, anybody's like hyper addictive and it gives you your you experience You're like what you most want to re-experience in your memories or or things you it basically puts you in a Ecstasy state, which is like holy shit. That would be so addictive, wouldn't it? Can I take bane's venom? Go for it. No, yes I will choose that Because I can then move the couch. Well, isn't bane's venom in bat woman. What what is that? It's like a because that's remember that's like a that's like a thing in bat woman now We have a super steroid. We have to catch up, but it's like a um Isn't it like a snake bite thing? It's a super steroid that basically just gives you a lot of strength the more you pump. Are we talking about that woman? That one is a super steroid that gives you more strength the more I'm talking about bane venom I I would like to take this opportunity to we are we are about halfway through talking about the movie when we talk About it for four hours. Feel free. How's it? Oh Okay Yeah, um So in the orphanage they find the projector playing a speech by Thomas wane when he's doing his mayoral campaign talking about the one billion dollar endowment for the renewal fund for like public services um But then it's sprawled across the walls. This is my least favorite riddle because it's not a riddle Everybody knows the saying the sins of the sins of the father are visited upon the son and then he realizes Oh, no, bruce wane is the target. This is my least favorite riddle. I I don't think it's Everybody knows this thing The first time in the movie where I was like Wait, are you only going after bruce because he's his son? Right, you think about all the other people that you went off like it I enjoyed the other targets as of understanding a villain, but this one. I was like, ooh This seems to be a a break of ethics that really kind of makes riddler a lot less interesting Now the steel man in favor of the film Would be Well, bruce wane hasn't done anything to try and make the city a better place as from the from the riddler's pov He's just rested on a pile of money Now, I think you could read that in but there is no reference to this in the film Yes, I feel if that was the reason riddler would have told him and I would like to have that seen where riddler Every time every time it's explicitly because of the sins of the father like that's the reason cited In the that is the reason given Yeah, that's what that's why I don't know that what I said is the the first one that you can laugh You could you could change the movie to have that be the case without You know too much alteration if you if you swapped up the Like the dialogue more than anything else and maybe some messaging But it it would be I think it'd be better. I would have just said a break of ethics Didn't he attack the new mayor? She seemed good. Nah, that didn't break his code So what you've highlighted is a very good point and we will get there Moller is saying that while rubbing his hands together. I'm very When you're like you highlight another inconsistency is C's not consistent. I'm just like lol Thank you, but we'll get there Well, so yeah, um We will know to be to be fair the the steel man of the reason he is going after bruce Is because he resents Um, how he had that rich lifestyle when he himself. Yeah, I think that's I wouldn't say that's this new man. That is just a story. That is what the film. That's what the film presents as being Well, yeah, but I wouldn't that wouldn't the uh The argument for how that makes some sense as a motivation It does kind of it doesn't it goes against The reasoning behind all the other targets, but this is something much more personal and he has this resentment What I would highlight there then is that I think that that is weak From a writing standpoint in the sense that all the other victims We're very deeply connected To the central conspiracy and this one which happens to be the most personal one to bruce is thinner And it's like very yeah, you could do better than that. You know, it's a part You need to do there's no reason for this to be linked to the other victims Who are very closely related into why they were chosen and this is just like I don't like him. I think by the way What you've said just like that I think that they should have ran with that that riddler should have made a big deal About how bruce wane is a piece of shit because he's sat on so much money I could have helped so many people and he's chosen not to It ties in so well to think he could also tie bruce wane I think there's an attempt There's an attempt to do this in a film, but it's not cited as the reason to tie bruce wane to the renewal fund Yeah, I just This is another example of a thing that could be improved very easily. Um, like it's it's a minor tweak and and you you fix it immediately Yeah, um, but any yeah, uh, in any case He's racing home to call alfred about, uh, this Because alfred is uh, he's picking up a package for bruce wane's eyes only opens it up There's a fireproof little message to the batman and then a bomb and it blows up But as it turns out he was already well too late. It's been like an hour since it detonated. I was happy with that It's like, yeah It's not gonna line up perfectly for you Uh in terms of timing I would be fine with that except for he didn't as soon as he figured out that bruce wane was the target He's like, oh my god I need to race home to make sure my people are safe And he probably should have figured it out figured it out before going to the orphanage. I don't know Why he didn't well, uh That's relying on him figuring out the clues, but he acts within character once he learns the info So the flaw would just if you could say there's a flaw. It's that he didn't figure it out fast enough Yeah, which isn't really a it's not a character flaw It's just he just seemed very obvious to me that bruce wane was But here's the thing is there meta implying that because one of the big significant things we understand about bruce And batman is that he isn't orphan rather than from his pov Yeah, from his perspective, he just might not see himself As that thing well, I think uh something to remember as well as renewal becomes important now From his perspective the renewal fund hasn't been something that he's had to think about Up until this point It's now that he starts to think about the renewal fund. I would counter a little bit on the orphan thing I think that is on batman's mind quite a bit the uh, right. Yeah, right, right, right No orphans. They can't fucking let it go Jesus christ, um, they're just fucking mad about their bone density being so long At least if I could keep my blood, yeah You know, it's been so long since that was a thing people are gonna just be so confused We're not even gonna explain it No, well, they'll never know why orphans don't own their own blood. Yeah, that's right. That's uh, that was a prime lower stream That was a long time ago That was a great stream Yeah, uh, so the the thing went off and uh, alfred is in hospital. He is cling into life But barely he's not well. Do you have any next of kin? Lord and uncle life Um, and he just says no, it's just me Uh, which I he is another sort of like But this it's like five seconds But like I just appreciate like the the constant sort of discussion that's happening in the subtext about alfred's nature In relation to the wanes. I just oh, there's so little of it. Come on. It's just been it's been a long time since He is His scenes are separated by that half an hour like each one each of the four scenes that he has in the film Um does not get a lot of screen time or dialogue in this and it is really it's a it's a damn shame Yep Because I really like him I do too. Yeah But then uh, yeah, so I want to know more Bruce starts uh, he goes up to his big gothic little place And starts sprawling things out on the ground trying to house all of the pieces. Yes. Wow his big gothic little place Also, no, this is house Also, no, it is a house. Yes. It's a big office little place. All right um, and then yeah, he starts to try and go through stuff about renewal but um Before he can actually figure it out. He gets contacted by selena who's got her little eye thing and she's asking to meet up Wait, hold on Really quick. Um, I thought it was very odd that he took all the time to spray paint that stuff on the floor I was about to say something Yeah, was to go look in a file cabinet about renewal, which was already on his mind. Yeah, I agree All of the time that would have taken you to just write it down on a table I think it's absurd that he makes this retarded thing. It's For the trailer I was expecting like a like a like a detective scene I'm gonna connect this to this and here and there like a five minute scene or whatever and it's like And then he gets a call and it's like, let's me open a cabinet. I'm gonna look in the cabinet For the trailer, that's it. So I guess that's just in his place now. I would I would happily This one as as indulgence. I would I would say this is indulgent Oh, I was I was I was on tip of my tongue. I was gonna say that. Yeah, um Because this actively makes it more difficult to like process information To spray paint it out and to spread all this stuff in this big room instead of just having it at a desk with you I'm not on a Well, well, he's got a butler foot. Oh never mind but uh the But yeah, this seems like it would hurt him How do you think that this is just a regular occurrence? Do you think this is a regular occurrence where just alfred walks into the fucking liver? Oh, he did passed away and have a clue seeking adventure here on the floor I want to point out as well. Remember the effort he puts into moving the table into the center of the floor All he writes on that is a question mark What the fuck are you doing bruce? It's such a waste of space Yeah, he's gotten a little high on the spray paint fumes and he's not thinking too clearly Those the two concussions he had in the same day. Yeah, like they did something to him Let's get a funny got it. Freak No, batman would have batman would have a blackboard That fucking orphans waste of space Yeah, he meets up with selena on the on the roof He meets up with selena on the roof to have a little chat about what's going on She's not super happy things aren't going quite well for her right now One one last thought they needed to be an after credit scene of alfred washing away that with living broom things And he's all like bandaged up and he has his bandages all over him. He's like on crutches and hunched over Why bruce? Why? They be talking on on the roof about uh everything that's going on um And uh the the big revelation here is because he's talking about like so what what's the deal? Like you were working this operation like you kind of were you were inviting trouble into your life Um, and then she says like well, no, I'm entitled to that money. Um, because falcon is her dad We play that music That wasn't the music that they played. Yeah, right. Oh, okay They don't play All right, all right. Um, you're actually fucking moron. Oh, sorry. I should uh, yeah And uh, essentially they just come to the conclusion. It's like, all right. Well, let's work together to You know to try and basically like avenge Uh, arnica that she deserves some level of justice, you know, because all of all of these unfortunate Yeah, like she's a victim here. You know, she deserves justice. Let's let's bring them down By the way, I like I really like their conversations that these two have so um I like like he apologizes after he assumes the worst in her and they There there's like the potential romance aspect there But it's I I really like these two as characters together I would not be upset if we got more later I wouldn't be either. Um, I I imagine Yeah, yeah Right. The the what was it? It was the the white privileged assholes. That was the line that was like the one line out of Yeah, that one took me out. I I just sort of like where did that come from? Like what? Yeah But I feel like that had nothing to do with anything. Um, it didn't They were they weren't yeah, they were just I it feels really weird You're like Selena just because all of the bad people are white doesn't mean white people like you need to In Falcone is Falcone isn't white. Is he he's like John tutorial. I don't alien Is it yeah, he he's he likes like a Mediterranean sort of complexion He's depending on who asked the white too, but it's Italian Italians are Shredinger's whites. So just again your your regular reminder that racism is really stupid. All right Yeah Because we're trying to figure out of what she said makes sense It's just well, I think I think it's just that there was nothing in the film that was talking about the idea of like racism being Waste until she brings it up a little bit. Yeah It was mainly It was all about like power and right government officials and senior people. Yeah, it's about the abuse of power It was barely about gender either. So it wasn't even about like privilege really It was more just abuse of power No, there was stuff about privilege earlier in that scene where you're talking about how people clearly grew up rich and things Like that, right? I'm fine with He clearly grew up rich the white part is super awkward. But yeah, well, that's definitely class elements to it Um, I it's just the race thing. I don't understand like that It felt like we never got anything about that at all in the story It's like listen to it does come out of my friends thing Wait, like you listen to a friend doing their rant on things you completely agree with and then they just throw it Like, yeah, I fucking hate the bad. They're jewish. You're like, yeah Whoa The line uh, it's fine. This one reminds me of the uh, the ex-women line from uh from dark phoenix It's just like man, they just care out of nowhere. Like, what do we do it? If it's it's a moment where it's like, damn, I see the script. I see it in front of my face I see the line written in the script. You've taken me out of it. Really? I see the notes written on the script from the executive saying you need to Put in this line, all right Yeah, what's what's especially weird about it is that they take great pains to establish that this isn't our world There's future tech We have like, you know, corruption that's more akin to like 20s to 40s america mobster's corruption. Yeah There's so many things that make this not our world except that they're also the message connects and it works Yeah, it's it's it's very strange to just insert Our current like social and political ideas into this world because it's it's like he He decided he wanted to do social commentary in a movie that Completely different world I think I think I think it's another one of those Probably mandate lines of this will get people talking this will stir up the part a bit and that'll be it, right? Some other things to make discourse happen more so that people go and see the movie more I don't know. I don't know it's weird It is weird in terms of the I forgot that line was in there until he mentioned it again I remember I now that you mentioned it. Yeah, I do remember in the theater. I was like, wait, what why? I was like right now. I was listening intently and then I went. I was why why why would you why? It tainted the neck the rest of the conversation to a degree because I kept thinking about it I was like, why would why would she say that is that why where this part? Yeah Um It was really hard The the important the really important part in terms of the plot stuff is she basically is I'm going to go find uh The the off-duty cop because he's involved. So I'm going to go find him uh, and then batman returns to with a little old bat cave and um There's there's a new video up about uh from from the riddler about the wanes Uh, and oh boy, there's revelations Sorry, huh? Very revelations. Oh, yeah. Um, I just thought you were saying I'm sorry. You know what? I'm having a brave wave. Oh, did you think oh the hell but was leather because when he takes it off it bends like cloth almost Yeah, so we just it's john wick at this point like that's the tag. It's just john wick tag Yeah Um, I thought it was leather because it looks stitched together around the nose. It's together too. Yeah Yeah, the nose. Yeah, you could see the stitching's on the nose. Well because everyone it is but Is it magic bat leather is the question? It is magic What's good because aesthetically it's like baby's birth first batsuit right like this is the first iteration of the suit so it's Like aesthetically it's not really sending the message. This should be as Indestructible as it is. Mm-hmm. Yeah I can believe the armor on the chest and like the arms and stuff the helmet though Mm-hmm. It's it's a fee The helmet is not it does not look It could use dark knight returns Adaptation kind of the suit that Ben Affleck wears against Superman that suit where it's like, whoa That one is like yeah mech almost. Yeah, it's it's that middle ground between armor and a mech Yeah, I have like some armor on his head though. Like you could have just some more Armor plated helmets. They have existed for many years Yeah, I've seen the idea of uh head protection yeah Head protection is uh, it's a thing Is this a batwoman reference does something like this happen in batwoman Does something become immortal when it's dipped in the blood of reshao ghoul? Oh, that's just dumb enough to be believable that it's a batwoman Because the reshao ghouls already already exists in the arrow verse because he fought Arrow in season three of that show so I can believe that they brought that back A lot of people are saying like yeah from the way it looks But I'm just saying like so the reason why that's just With these sorts of movies It's like you can't go off the way it looks when you see it sparking off of bullets like you just have to go Okay, I guess it can't be leather then um We're sorry The uh the the big reveal in this scene is 20 years ago. I wrote this. I actually wrote a lot of stuff down, but I've just been I've just gone read it verbatim 20 years ago when thomas wane was running for mayor Uh a journalist had uncovered some dark history about the wanes and the arkham's the two founding families of gotham uh When martha was When martha was young I we we really are listening it's just me popped up and it's funny Your best to continue okay, so um When martha was young uh her mother had like a psychotic break and killed uh committed murder suicide killed her dad and then killed herself But the arkham's covered it up Because they're a big prestigious family and then we find out that martha had uh, she's she's had Mental health issues that she's had to deal with for a whole life being in and out of uh institutions And um the journalists had uncovered it and was going to be reporting on it um thomas wane uh now this is what this is what is presented by the riddler Uh thomas wane went to his old associate falcon and had the journalist killed to cover it up um to cover up that that happened um and then of course shortly thereafter thomas and uh martha were killed um So it's like yeah, there's the legacy of the wanes and bruce you got to pay for that um That feels a bit unfair to bruce But yeah, it does feel like a breach of ethics but uh caron damn an interesting revelation We don't typically have that as a as a thing that that is so hard. Yeah Maybe thomas wane is like a not particularly great guy. Yeah Uh and that martha is unstable. It's like damn. We don't we don't typically get that and um I feel like this is one of because we haven't talked we we've talked about it briefly I think robert paterson was really fucking great in this role I think that uh There were so many strong examples of very subtle changes in in his uh emotions Um coming through in terms of the performance like it's it's it's really strong Like as i'm watching under the hood Yeah, even under well the scene i'm thinking about specifically with under the hood is Later on when he's talking to the riddler, but we'll get to that I think that's like the strongest example of The the the amount that you can achieve even with the hood on but yeah his performance is great um Oh, apparently this was done in telltale's batman game. I haven't played it. So I don't That's what I I knew it was ringing a bell. That's where okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay, right. Um, okay. Now Now I talked about this with more rags last night. I want to put it for Uh Something that i'm not sure what I think about it as an observation, but I think it's worth talking about I'm posing. This is a question. Okay. Hey put down the pitchfork I'm just I'm just making that clue because I want people to get mad at me for raising this question I feel safe with my pitchfork jumping to conclusion about what I think about it is hey Can I right so is it? A coincidence. You said we could interrupt you whenever we want it did not right now I'm trying to ask my fucking question. All right. Fringy built his nest with lies Is no more lies. No more lies That's appropriate Is it a coincidence? That's bruce wane and batman are the same person You're gonna have to explain yourself because everyone in chat's about to say I'm gonna have to yeah, this Yeah, I actually I actually put a thought there's more of a yeah, so so this is this is what I wrote down when I was thinking about it um Is it a coincidence that bruce Who just so happens to be batman is directly connected to the conspiracy that he is currently investigating Think of it this way from the world's perspective Is there any reason for Anybody in the world To think that bruce wane is batman now We know what the answer is because the riddler doesn't think he is it's no batman could be anybody um, and the riddler has got batman participating with him in an investigation That ties to bruce wane in some way. Is that a coincidence? That like the conspiracy That the riddler is obsessed with and trying to uncover Just so happens to be a conspiracy that is directly tethered to bruce who is batman Do you get what I mean when I say that? Yes. Yeah, I'd say that's a coincidence. I understand it. Yeah Yeah, I think it is a coincidence. Yeah, this is this is an interesting question that I don't feel is like ever asked It's it doesn't even this is almost Like sub meta. It's a very weird question. You don't want to like again I didn't say that it was bad. I am I am simply exploring this avenue This is why I'm broken up. Take it easy I know that the angriest people in chat are just going to be they're going a coincidence that bruce wane is batman What he has to be I was like I made a mistake by presenting it that way because now I feel like it's tarnished the fucking No, I think the question is I think you asked it fairly It's just an odd question that isn't asked much But I think it's a totally fair question We don't have to ask it much because typically Oh, man Yeah, because typically batman and bruce wane's involvement in cases and in adventures isn't linked in this kind of way Where it's extremely convenient that the person who is batman doing all these things Also is bruce wane Take dark knight, for example, I think where he bruce uses his position to get involved in business with lau, right? Even though his main well Thing with that is getting information that can help him as batman capture lau Which I think makes a lot more sense than this being like What I wanted to bring up is this is similar to the one where people are just like wait, what you we'd never think about this Which is like is it a coincidence The green goblin dark arc sandman and all these people they all happen in the same city that spider man is in Like I think that is a much more overt and all of them have a personal relationship with with peter parker Right. I think I think that is a big one. Yeah Well, so that would be to me a more overt example of what i'm thinking about here because typically typically bruce wane is not like directly connected to Like bruce wane is an independent entity from batman is rarely directly connected to like what is currently being investigated But in this story it kind of is If you get what I mean Like the the bruce wane element of his connection to the conspiracy has nothing to do with batman specifically But batman is investigating it as an entity um I guess i'm not sure What for sure this summary of of what you've said is like A rich and corrupt family have ties to corruption in a city and also the scion of the family is like nuts enough to be involved in the City that's not a coincidence. It's like nuts the scion of the family is nuts enough to be involved in the city Is your way of representing he became batman? That's really interesting as a frame Batman is involved in the city in the same way that everyone in the city is involved with the city Yeah, it's always just it's always a fun game to hear when people make those kinds of arguments The amount of removal from the original thing that is actually happening They have to do to make their little description of it that makes the argument sounds cheaper How about instead of being You actually engage with this type of this Where is the breaking point for when it becomes too convenient to the point of a contrivance? The link between a superhero and their Their unsuperhero self between a person and their alter ego. We know why the decision was made. It's more potent for drama Um, it's it's you you can tap into that more personal side of his life To uh to explore something interesting. That's like that's why you do it I guess it's just it was something I was thinking about because Batman being bruce wane affords him access to information that batman would either have a much harder time getting or wouldn't have um That's interesting. Yeah, it's it's just it's just something I was thinking about Um, when I was when I was thinking about the movie a bit I will warn you as a result of this anybody who doesn't like us will say efebs That is coincidental that batman is bruce wane I mean if like uh that That's a silly way to phrase the question That I'm actually I'm a little bit annoyed now thinking about it Like that's gonna really frustrate me if that's actually the takeaway just because I asked the question like that Now I shouldn't have said it's horribly written because of this that's something you shouldn't have said you did say it Yeah, because that because that is definitely something that I did say this is an objective flaw Right. That was that was certainly something I said. I didn't over qualify the hell out of this question We're so It did seem on when fringy called bruce wane a white privileged asshole I didn't think that was relevant, but it did seem a little out of you know, like I don't know Okay, I think it's absolutely the right takeaway. The reason why I bring it up is just because it's something I was thinking about In terms of the connection between these two from the riddler's perspective That's what kind of made me think about this is a question um, the riddler Likes batman and he doesn't like bruce wane and It's interesting to me That he wants the batman to investigate A case that directly ties to bruce wane when from his perspective and the world's perspective Batman and bruce are not only not one in the same, but you wouldn't necessarily have any reason to believe that they are one in the same I just find that interesting to think about that's all I think it's also There is thematic value to this connection at the very least though that you could argue riddler and batman were created as as victims of this big event related to the The fund and all the corruption involved. Yeah, right That would be that that would be the counter argument that you would propose that is like well batman is a consequence of this I guess it's that batman is one potential consequence, but there could have been other ones too And from the world's perspective The batman wasn't the consequence of that the world has no idea. We know that because we're following bruce's story Um, but you know the riddler doesn't necessarily know that because it's been many many years removed um, it's I think that's To make the point clear there's like no It's not that it doesn't make sense that bruce would become batman And similarly that there would be a connection between bruce and the renewal fund It's just I guess interesting to think about the dichotomy in terms of that. These are two entities in the world Uh from the perspective of the world Yeah, very well just the floor. That's all I I don't know It's a good mullet over try not to kill fringy in your dreams or anything anyone Well, I may add something to it. Um, I think um, the fact that this is the first entry in this universe and the fact that It it I think there's there's something to be said about the fact that it doesn't feel as much Like if this was like a television show and this was one story out of many that Didn't have that connection It would almost come up almost like the law of averages that eventually we come across a case like this But because this is the first case We're seeing in this universe. It does highlight the coincidence a lot more here Yeah It's not the only factor in this but it does make the the the world feel a little small in terms of how many players there actually are You know everything being Tied together Indeedy What's next fringy? right, yeah um So we uh The what's next is uh bruce decides he's gonna go talk to falcon To try and get some answers from him as bruce. Uh, what happened as bruce? Yeah as bruce Oh real quick. I just wanted to play in a seed. Uh, I think this will be more important later But how does the riddler know all of this? um So there is there was a line later on that um Is is that is the best that we're gonna get as an explanation? Maybe i'll jump it's it's that no, we'll save it. We'll save it. Okay. Yeah, sure. Um, so he goes to talk to falcon Uh, and What falcon tells him is that the the information he adds on top of this revelation is that moroni Uh, had was paying the journalist the journalist was in moroni's pocket the old if you don't remember again the old mob boss Uh, and then he gives the implication that it was actually moroni who i had thomas killed because he wasn't in his pocket like he he didn't have him as a Somebody that he could be in charge of the city um This is something that bruce accepts to be true because that what comes next is that he confronts alfred in hospital With uh, this piece of information um Does someone else have any thoughts about this scene overall? I know that someone has a lot of thoughts on this scene. I have thoughts on this scene. Um, yeah You go ahead with your thoughts. I want to hear you. I'm gonna go ahead with my thoughts. So Uh, this is the Most we get I'd say for bruce and alfred. This is the big bruce and alfred scene And uh, when I saw alfred waking up and he looks over and sees bruce is waiting there for him any smiles My my heart melted a little I was like, oh That's nice And then bruce is like you're a fucking liar he's like Yeah, what well I was like, oh no, and it's not because it's uh bad writing any way shape or form It just means that it's definitive. There is a direction this film has decided to go with these two that wasn't my preference But hey, that's fine Him saying you're a liar means that he's taken what falcon has said to be true Uh over whatever alfred has to say now you could be like, well, that's not true because once the scene ends It's like, no, no, no. I mean before he gets at alfred's take and that's what I took from this subtextually I was like that sucks that their relationship is like this I was expecting the conversation to go like You know how you're feeling and then we have a back and forth to making sure you're okay telling him He was really fucking worried and then maybe a bit of silence and then him just asking the question Did my dad have someone killed Or like more specific than that and you can just see alfred's face drop and then he'd be like I was hoping that No, we'd never have to talk about this or something like that and then he can explain it and we can get it through Instead we have a just outright beard like my dad's an asshole and you're an asshole for lying to me about it And it's like dude all you've got to go off Falcone's word But that's how little alfred apparently means to you that you're willing to believe all of this just on a whim The evil crime boss. Yeah, so it was sad for me to see that But I enjoyed the scene and I very much liked it at the end with them holding hands Be as gay as that is Very I don't like how quickly he believed falcon's And then flipped back Yeah, after getting alfred's perspective, you know, it's like why would you you have to get that first, right? And alfred's like pissed at him during this conversation. I enjoyed it So I was like you should have a bit of a like what the fuck man Like your dad was a good person. What the fuck do you even know like about your dad? Oh, yeah, he definitely killed someone, huh? Is that what you know? Like oh, yeah, I was getting a little annoyed on alfred's behalf in universe if that makes sense No, I understand what you mean. I like the scene a lot. Um, it is it I would say it's like the main feels moment in the film Yeah Something I really liked um was um that The scene has keeps the nature of the wanes death ambiguous. So alfred says It could have been because falcon Um, it got someone to knock them off or it could have just been some desperate mugger um happened to um happened to kill them and I think I like it from kind of two points of view one is the adaptational point of view in the sense that Writers can't seem to agree in the comics a lot of the time if the wanes death was just a senseless tragedy Or if it was part of a larger conspiracy So this kind of writes the line of saying look, it could be one or the other depending on What your what your preference is for me. I'd prefer it more to be a senseless tragedy um, but from a thematic point of view, um It what it emphasize it kind of emphasizes um something larger um in the film and that is um, it is part of bruce learning to get over the vengeance thing because um by emphasizing that um, the person who killed the wanes like the cause of the wanes murder whether that is um a single individual or The larger society as a whole um, that's not the important part the important part Is that bruce needs to protect other people from? um be uh from Experiencing those future tragedies rather than focusing so much of his energy On avenging his own I think later in the film that's kind of the conclusion that he starts to come towards Especially in some of those final moments Yeah, I think that's all right Yeah Oh, I guess uh to clarify what we learned in this scene, uh, alfred says Thomas in a moment of weakness. He did go to falcon. He didn't know he's gonna kill him though He probably should he like it was a mistake on his part to not realize that falcon would do something like that So that he'd have leverage over him But he intended to report it to the police immediately after he found out that and that was the knife that they died And something I do like that is out it is Oh, so falcon killing was like well actually I don't know I can't know maybe it was just some robbers Who knows yeah, and the alfred basically says like it's for him up that he never got to know The answer. Yeah, he never knew but sometimes you just don't get the answer. I appreciate that as a storytelling choice I think it's neat and then uh It's uh bruce. Yeah, he talks about how it's like this was a moment that reminded him of He's not afraid of like dying, but he is afraid of losing people it's just like a reminder of um I guess the different types of fear that someone can have and uh a part of himself that he had forgotten um You know as a uh a part of himself that you forgot another meme They just keep coming through They don't stop coming The calm never stops Thank goodness um Uh Uh, that was that was about that and then um, they see that the bat signal is up in the sky Uh, he heads over there and uh selena has captured the off duty cop. We can pause so oh sure I uh Talked to rags about this for for a while actually So I was just talking about the nature of the bat signal in relation to batman and all the adaptations and stuff so The fact that it is not on the top of the the police station And that it is instead in some kind of uh scaffold laden skyscraper that's not quite complete Uh means to me that it is you know So so you have pieces of information here, right? There's gotta be a lot of people who don't like batman and they know that the signal Is relates to him especially the people in the station that connect the mob and stuff And you know that there's this one guy who activates the light all the time And so like if you follow him you'll find the location where they always have their Meets pretty easily and you can manipulate the light be it destroy it or use it to call out batman whenever you want And so when I saw Um, I thought maybe there'd be some level of security or some super level of secrecy What kind of threw me off was like the scene begins and it's like But you didn't do the light. No, did you know and I was like, whoa anybody can just walk up there and turn the light on like oh Damn and of course looks what salina did she just walked up there and turned it on And I thought that was interesting as well because she's got a cop there that she's torturing Like man, if anybody else would just be curious enough and turn up And um, I don't know Call I assume you're talking about the bat signal now. Yeah, it's a very it's a big curiosity to me My brain didn't it didn't quite. Yeah It seems like it could be easily used to just create an ambush or whatever Yeah They've got no system for this man and that man. Geez They're like, oh man someone turned the light on that wasn't us too and I'm just like you never thought that would might happen someday With how it's just there and anyone can use it And if anyone followed gordon from the station or his house or anything ever then they would find a location pretty easily And the fact that you can just follow the fucking light to find it There's a reason why it's it's advantage. It's often To my understanding it's often portrayed as being on top of the police station Yeah, which implies that to a degree the police will work with batman And also it doesn't mean every random tom dick and harry can just access it at their leisure There is a um It's got some level of protection But here it's just seems to be fair game for everyone and people would be all over that shit I wouldn't be surprised if your average man was just like if I follow that light I think it's not a skyscraper when you go up there and just wait and you know, and just like oh shit batman Fucking crazy, man. Like you could just pay it to anyone. It's so easy to do Meanwhile, if it's on top of a police station, you ain't getting in the police station. So fuck off Yep, I mean, surely there's this built the security on the building I thought the implication was the cat woman climbed up there because that's the skill that she has I don't know. Where was the security on the building? As far as we know, it's just a lift that you walk into I don't see them on there's a lift So like it will be locked like a building but she's the cat woman so she got in anyway Like I assume that there would be at least be a lock on the building with the policeman on her bag Well, it's not even it's not even like an in the building. It's all outdoors. It's a construction site Oh, yeah, she just says it's not even like a and to be fair I don't think a lock is going to stop many people who really want to get up there No, it's like one lock separates me from the bat signal Riddle me this lock man What has a lock but won't stop me A lot of other Batman stories don't have this problem because the the light is on the roof of like gcpd Yeah, yeah, that's your location It's just something I never had to think about before because all the other adaptations usually have it secure on the on the building Yeah, um, but this one doesn't Yeah um In any case up there they find. Yeah selenus captured the oh wait actually is it is this bat signal? Is it worse than the bat woman bat signal? um I've always wondered about bat signals Has there been like a misbusters or whatever on this to test out how it would actually work because you can't know it wouldn't work It wouldn't work. Yeah, I figured it wouldn't work That's all you would probably have to be much larger for it to function um Yeah, so she says well like You can't just you can't just like shine a spotlight into the clouds like I even then like So what if there's no clouds on that day and then it relies on very low clouds shape perfect in it like Yeah, yeah, I have to do a lot bigger to get it could potentially do it with a projector in the perfect weather conditions But they don't use a projector Well, even with yeah, it makes more sense to shine it on a building wouldn't the bat signal itself You'll like bled and fucked because of the distance of the light and how it would change as it goes Like I guess one someone explained this to me and I was like, oh I think so yeah because in theory right if light was if light was more accurate Should we say that every plane in the sky would be casting a plane sized shadow on the ground But of course because light is constantly bouncing around the atmosphere and things like that That shadow is going to get blurrier and blurrier and blurrier as it goes up until it just disappears Yeah, whereas when it's on the tarmac it is casting in the air or whatever the word is it Hang on def def um def um thinking diff diff something in are you thinking of a fusion Diffusion that's the one diffusion is when uh, yeah Sort of I think yeah, because that's just one thing spread out when things are diffused because I'm fairly I've been told that this um this effect doesn't happen in no atmosphere and that if you had a plane In no atmosphere All right, it would fold the ground. Yeah, I would imagine Because the atmosphere causes it to diffuse it bounces off the the atmosphere particles. Yeah Also as light moves away from its source it falls off exponentially the inverse square law so like It doesn't work for a whole multitude of reasons Very well, um, but if there wasn't really I Would like when pretty I don't like when gritty adaptations of like I you know, it's like it's some stupid fucking sci-fi everything at patient at bat, and I sure have the bat signal but in this one it's like You guys like know how like that's stupid in every way, right? Makes you wonder if there's a way to I don't think they I don't think I necessarily know that I wonder if there's a way to update only they do to make it more. Um Rounded do I say I'm not sure What what's the way to make it more grounded is that what you're asking? Yeah, like maybe Yeah, that could be yeah Yeah, um and I there is a part of this movie where I was like, oh, this is trying to be realistic But that's really not realistic at all and it's actually really silly and it took me out of it But we'll get to that when we get to that because it was sort of not to that point yet No, we're not to that point yet um, well, no the the point they were up to is uh that selena has gotten the Uh off judy cop who was involved the the guy who was at the uh the drug place as well. Um They had selena's phone On which a voicemail left a message was left by anica the voicemail reveals that she got picked up brought to falcon uh He had had asked for a The man to take her passport and he's just like what what what the uh, what would he tell you? You know, I know he likes to talk what he tell you And basically she just admits that she knew that he was the uh that falcon was the informant falcon is the rat um, I guess there are a few question marks here um, so They did go get selena's phone But why didn't they delete the voicemail if they got it and they and the reason why they got it was because they Were aware of the phone call when you brought that. Why didn't they destroy it? Hey, no, sorry, I'm totally lost now if they took her phone when they went to abduct her. Why would she call selena's phone? Unless you When you brought it up, I I was actually not sure where it was gonna like I was so confused when you said they took Her phone from the apartment because I was like wait, but but how does but That's clean to get it I just I I was actually just gonna I'm gonna sit out of this one I don't understand what's happening with the phones of this film. I don't know if you guys So think I think what's happening. They they Go to rate their apartment get an anika and for some reason Selina's phone Right. Well, I think that's the idea because yeah, Selena recovers her phone from um From the cob unless i'm mistaken Yeah, which was off screen Before we get typing out in big text. It's a voicemail. We know that we're trying to figure out Man who in caps lock says something we've already said. Thank you. Uh, we're figuring something else out You you just you wait there give us a sec. Okay and turn caps lock off so We uh, I guess to just dial it down so anika gets her phone that she has access to Even though she's been abducted violently from the house to call selena And it goes to voicemail um So the question would be I guess How was she able to make this call which would be the first question just to clarify So when she calls that phone it is currently in the possession of the cob Yes I think unless I am deeply mistaken on uh on how the phone Because otherwise, I don't we don't know who if the cob was Rating or going into the house getting her. Well, you don't know that right? I think I think we're over complicating it if selena had her phone She would have answered the phone and heard all of this But she never had she was oblivious to all of this so she didn't have her phone Which is yeah, so we got that in stone right like this the phone was taken from the apartment So the first and foremost thing is why wasn't it destroyed immediately? That's my first thought is if you're him that phone is getting dropped in a bucket of lava. It is being destroyed Absolutely I'm just gonna fucking I want to boba fat needs to shoot a rock and a rocket at this thing to vaporize it So there's nothing left Is efap serious right now? Yes Yes, like legitimately if you can actually explain this to us I would really appreciate that give us an alternative explanation because I'm not sure what the other one would be right now Yeah, I I would legitimately like to know because I was confused by this This this this phone thing and the fact that there is a message that exists and can be retrieved and is used in this way When what if the convo was in the apartment before they took her wouldn't they have heard selena's phone ringing then from in the apartment? Selena could have had her phone and she went to the club Yeah, that would definitely make it worse Um I am waiting though for this. Yeah, I'm waiting just Christ you guys are pedantic. I don't know if you're talking about chat or us But if it's us, well, I hope I'm talking about chat because because with us like this is this is a very very important thing Yeah, I don't know this is so important. I don't know why you can't see how important this call is We need to figure out how this call Came to be and how they came to listen to it when they did we need to know how and why Yeah, so someone in chat said that she said that her phone When her apartment was robbed that it was taken or what? What else if her phone? I don't understand how she could have her phone and only just now uncover this information No, her phone was taken So you just want to say that's what she says after she sees after she didn't get back to the Apartment I'm pretty sure that's what all right. So he took the phone. Yeah, so she's great We got that okay next step Yeah, they take anika to falcon and she uses her phone to call Salinas and then it goes to voicemail and so while this thing is happening with falcon all of it gets recorded now Already why does anika still have her phone? She shouldn't if she's been captured. They should have taken that from her Secondly, I guess they didn't notice that she started up a fucking voice call message And then they didn't check her phone afterwards having done it and then they didn't notice any notifications on selena's phone And they didn't destroy selena's phone Because remember this is serious enough. This is serious enough to strangle her on the spot No questions asked. That's how serious this information is just her knowing this warrants her immediate death She's making a call selena when they burst in So no, she's brought to falcon. No, she was brought to falcon That's when she has her phone. So it wouldn't have been when they broke in I thought they killed her apartment. I assume they didn't kill her there Well, why would they have the line that falcon doesn't leave the place if he leaves it regularly to go to like dingy apartments and And we still have yeah go get her go get her and bring her here it it just It might have just been whenever yeah, it could be that they brought her Yeah, or she just while she was working they questioned her and killed her and then afterwards They went to the apartment to be like what did she do? Did she tell anybody? Did she send any notes? Did she So they went to the apartment to trash the place and look for because he didn't you don't need to trash the whole place If you're just bringing her in To my understanding So and perhaps i'm mistaken, but that was my read of it I think i think we've covered the problem Um And it's it's about three cold. There's at least three significant things here that shouldn't have happened That had to happen to make this happen Um Yeah, and like i'm reading most of chat and it does seem like most people like Maybe this happened and maybe then it's like yeah, we haven't got much to work with I don't mean from chatting from the movie Like there's not much to work with to figure out how this all happened the way it did But obviously the goals of the movie whether we couldn't have selena know this stuff yet We needed to wait until a bit later And so she has to get the phone and the delivery mechanism for that info is very poorly done Can especially especially considering how insanely important this is Um, it needs to be this would have been Where a like maybe very early on we like set up a phone Or something because it just sort of comes out of the blue like oh turns out this was all recorded And here's the phone that did it and luckily it still exists Did they already go over Batman getting a ton of civilians killed the pointless car chase that may have been covered? Yes, we did Yeah, we did Um There we could probably move on then Yeah, um, we're sorry very contrived Yes, I would say sorry The uh the uh like selena has resolved It's like i'm gonna kill uh falcon and this guy and bruce is like no we're not we're not doing that like that's not So this is kind of an interesting thought that it's like that he does have the no kill rule It ain't a huge part of this film though by comparison to other batman films Like we don't we don't talk about it much in the in the story. Um, it's much more about the movie two parts where this reference like this one And in the orphanage, I think No weapons And there's a little bit of a thematic There's a little bit of a payoff before it towards the end when he starts beating that guy and um, gordon has to hold him back It's not really spoken, but it is supposed to be like he's about he's about to go over the edge But the people around him Um can help him bring him back from that line, which is kind of part of his larger arc of Matureing and opening himself back up to others and all that good stuff Yes It does play a role in the final fight scene like the the gunmen are on harnesses I'm getting ahead of myself, but it seems like they're on harnesses only such that he won't kill them By throwing them off the jumbo truck. I was hoping to make that point, but oh well I'm jumping to apologize world. This is totally fine. Be Fun, yeah um Uh, sorry, I'm just reading it now. Um, did these guys watch the movie these guys are lacking knowledge on the film We're calling it a plot hole. Can you specifically again? I would love to know So one of the funny things that guy said You're wrong doesn't elaborate at least one of the funniest things that guy said in relation to that whole conversation Was falcon didn't know she made that call like our whole issue was that Like yeah, that's the problem my dude Yeah, they didn't know and then they did and then they didn't do anything about it And why is that why she still got to keep her phone and make these phone calls They took selena's phone They were smart enough to take that but they didn't investigate whether or not any outgoing Why would that not be like would you not just out of this thing if you find her phone on hers to start checking her contacts Maybe you need to chase these people down. Has she called the police? Who is she called? I think it is totally reasonable that like a mob boss would want to look into these things um Yeah, uh, but I mean anyway, uh, yes pressing on she she uh, she kicks the guy off which is uh Now I guess we'll talk about the shortly so she kicks the guy off Batman and gordon save him And she runs off to go kill falcon And then marus is like, all right, you deal with this guy. I'll go stop her Because she if she kills him we we probably lose our connection to riddler and Um, she's obviously gonna get herself in serious trouble. I um What I mentioned, yeah, right that we had the da earlier in the film Who basically said like I am not gonna name the rat because he will not only kill me He'll kill my fucking everyone. Oh, yes. Sorry. We jumped the gun there. Yeah, this guy is very talkative This guy tells them everything they could ever want to know and I was really surprised with that. Oh, sorry. Yeah Sorry, I forgot that this is important. It's it's important to understand. Yeah, we I jumped the gun a bit So just to make it like crystal clear what the central conspiracy is um There were two major crime organizations moroni and falcon Um, when thomas wane was running for mayor, he set up the renewal fund that uh after he was killed All of the corrupt elements within gotham competed to gain control over the renewal fund It's like a billion dollars Not much oversight just super useful um And in order to acquire that because he was competing against moroni falcon, uh, basically He informed the police of uh, his operation and a bunch of information on it that led to the major drug bust But nothing changed like moroni basically, uh, sorry falcon consolidated Control over the city. He's got all of the uh, like the He's got like the mayor the da a bunch of cops including the commissioning adam all and on his payroll In part financed by the money got from the renewal fund. He is essentially the mayor That's that's what we find out. That is the mystery unraveled essentially At least in terms of the conspiracy Um, just and this is all told to them a lot of it anyway Very abused by this uh, uh, anika wasn't adduct abducted She went to falcon because she wanted protection after the photos of her with the mayor were released He made the call before falcon came into the room What they're saying is He made the call when speaking to falcon then she went home and that's when a bunch of people came in I think this person may have forgotten she dies on the phone call Yeah Maybe um, I'm not sure. Yeah, I don't know sure. I'm not sure this person screams As she's being strangled to death like I don't think she goes home after that Also She did not go there She went there against her wishes pretty evidently I don't well. Yeah, that's because maybe that's where my confusion is because I thought that because she works there, right? Well, she what they're trying to steal money remember from falcon's operation. They're working together to try and steal money so if so if anika uh, an Anika yes, anika. Anika. Anika works there They could have just brought her into the office while she was working And then killed her there and then gone to the apartment and they trashed it looking for anything that she might have Copied written down sent Just to go there. I that's what I that's what I pulled from it Not that she was violently abducted from her home when she was working there anyway um I guess it doesn't really matter It's just um either way. There's problems that we're dealing with just by virtue of the the the phone call and the fact that they took the phones I feel like that's like actually really hurts it But I either way you would think that they would be thorough enough They'd be checking these things but yeah, and someone had mentioned that the the voicemail was stored on the network um What about selena's phone getting taken though? Oh, yeah, so I would argue that's another problem for the film She could access her voicemails without the phone from other things. Yeah The film doesn't really acknowledge that I don't think because it treats it as a yes to get the phone to get the voicemails And I guess this is a point where it's you got to think about how important this is this is like This is a substantial plot element resolved because of this phone like, um, it's huge How much stems from that? I and I like to think that we collectively as a group are pretty smart when it comes to getting info from movies and stuff I just feel like you have seven sets of ears and it seems like we can't We are really struggling to like that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm saying I'm like we there is enough like we we're all we all seem to be a bit confused about this Or we're not certain and I feel like with something this important in the movie It should be very much either super set up Or yes, sorry. I got a phone call. Terrible timing. I can hear it I mean, I guess the points come across but uh, yeah, so now it's a race against time to stop selena from uh From killing falcon now. I guess on on that point though to end it The yeah that we've got everyone here has been talking about this point and I'm we're more than ready for someone to be like Oh, you guys missed the part where they said blah blah blah blah I'm gonna be like, oh, okay. I totally um, of course if there's any information that makes this film better. I will happily accept uh, except those um And yeah, and of course I've been reading everything from chat just see if there's stuff that we can catch Unfortunately, you gotta we got to do both things, right? We can't just accept any information that might work It's as we got to sift through and find the ones that are accurate were there and The other thing I wanted to say was I felt it was a little awkward when she Threatens to kill him with the gun and batman pulls it down Is like do not like don't become just as bad as him or something like that She then slowly puts her leg in prep to push it forward to kick him Then she looks at batman and says something and then she kicks him I was like dude the second she lifted up her leg batman should be pulling it back Yeah, absolutely. What do you think she's gonna do? Like oh, she's just putting her leg on him like you do Chill one Um, that's it. Yeah, go ahead. I have a question in terms of time scale. Um, can bruce Like when we think about how far Selena is from bruce does it quite line up how That bruce can get there in time. Do you know what I mean? I know that She's going straight there. He's going straight there, right? This is gonna be close. Well, so This is this is something so they are both going straight there. I agree But once they're inside Selena has much easier access to falcon than batman does She can go in and say I need to speak to him and get in and talk to him And then they have their conversation whereas bruce needs to He needs to he needs to undress as batman at least in part like take off the mask or anything. He needs to slip in He needs to Disable the eye makeup He needs to take off his eye makeup. He doesn't know Well, he wears a hoodie. He doesn't take off his eye makeup. He's got a he's got his eye makeup on All right, okay. Yeah, sure. I was very confused there for a second He's definitely got his eye makeup on still um And then and then go in and then disable the power and then go down Into the into the uh the basement and then stop Selena like it feels like It feels like it could work in terms of timing, but I wonder Well, she does doesn't she have a conversation with him at first, you know, she knows that's something that helps. Um, yeah Well, it's it's kind of I don't know if maybe that could be considered a bit of an issue in that she so If you remember the conversation we see the tail end I think where she starts crying and he's like, let me get your tissue And she's like, oh no, I have my own and it's like that's this that's her way of setting up reaching into the purse But I'm just sitting here like I don't think you needed to do that You could literally have wanted to blow your nose You didn't have to like set up the sob story and then cry you could have just shot him Well, once he was on his own you could have pulled. Yeah, right So I I guess that's the concern that batman's gonna have is like damn By the time you get there my man, like it might be well and truly too late, but I guess you got you know, you got to try right There's nothing to do about that. I'm fine with him trying I think the way out frame it is he should have been too late. I think I that's kind of what I'm thinking that it's like timing It just seems like it's gonna be harder for him to catch up to her than it is for her to do what she wants to do Um, but it's not it's not a big deal. I don't think well Well, depends because if he got killed down there, that may well I was actually gonna bring this up. How does it affect riddler if john tatero is killed there instead of outside? And that old second acts, uh, it's a third act. Yeah, because riddler has no reason to fire the rifle No reason to get the department court. No reason. So I don't know how that I don't know what riddler's plan is from that Does he just give himself up because he's like, oh, he's dead. Oh Yeah, I guess so I guess yeah Oh, and I guess uh, this is this is also probably a point to once again reiterate that like the story doesn't this This whole sequence and all of this and a lot of the information that bruce has gotten doesn't happen Without the selena connection Or at least it would have to play out in a very different way And that all stemmed from her coming into that room at exactly the right moment for them to meet It's just uh, this would be the time to remind that of like how much stems from uh from this Oh, and also they uh, while she's having the conversation the the the audio gets released to the press Yes, that uh, like around that time to just um, and then he's taking a look and he's distracted From the situation which buys batman a bit more time as well Uh to to get there That was uh, that was released by gordon. Is it gordon gordon released it? Yeah Um, by the way playing that as well on the news the scream I was just like yeah, yeah Jesus edgy news They get to do whatever they want News there for sure Yeah So Yeah, bruce sneaks and he cuts the power He gets in his bat suit and then he goes down the elevator and it's that really cool shot from the trailer where the flashing muzzles Are illuminating the room and you can see him taking down all of the bad guys Um getting hit with a tremendous amount of bullets unfortunately as well But it is very dark and it's um And I can imagine that like if it's really dark and you're only getting flashes that you're not going to be aiming for like his mouth You're you're gonna be like they can only see once they fired and then they're dealing with recoil This would be a question for rags, but he's um fucking abandoned the podcast It has right now Yeah, so with the amount sparking off of his torso. I wonder how his face is doing But right if any of the bullets are reflecting it to his face If if we're to believe this kind of armor is just making the bullet shatter on impact. It's just like Man trendle Yeah, basically because um, we have to just believe that his suit his suit is magic at this point. Um Is the amount of the flurry of bullets that go on to it. It doesn't have an effect. He's like iron man. Uh, it's weird. Yeah In that particular which is interesting when uh, The pistol bullets had more of an effect would the would rifle they'd be larger, right? They'd be high caliber bullets right or pretty sure. Yeah, they punch harder Again rags And they're all firing. They're they're using fully automatic Yeah And like it looks awesome And it looks great. Yeah, if you were iron man, I'd probably be like the senior wad there I guess is uh one where they they're all missing because of how fucking terrified and confused they are with how he keeps moving around the room Um, but instead he just tanks all the bullets and it's like, okay That was really cool. I just don't know you want one where he's using the grappling hook undercover of darkness to just completely Get behind you know So they they have no idea how he's moving because they can see he moves very fast undercover of darkness Like in the arkham games where you you jump down you beat someone up you go back up And then some other the garden here. It's like, oh my god. What the fuck? Oh Oh god No, no, no, you forgot the part where you do the uh gargoyle spam to make sure that they forget you exist Yeah These like counters my position is very interesting, by the way. I got it's batman dude lol like Okay, yeah, that man doesn't typically do this. Oh, okay But like that's a fucking meme response. You seriously think i'm gonna take that seriously to like defend the writings like it's batman it's like, uh like What are we supposed to talking about uh, so rags rags your your you know you things about guns So in the hallway scene the really cool hallway scene it is very cool When batman is getting shot with all of the rifles that um now Rifles would have higher caliber bullets than a pistol, right? Or essentially Okay, so What what would that mean in terms of the impact that he's gonna suffer from those bullets? it's gonna be uh It's gonna be hitting a lot harder So you're gonna have larger Well, not necessarily larger bullets, but they'll be moving at a much higher speed and will generally be imparting a lot more energy onto the target. Well, so that's that's a thought so if you're Yeah, if you got batman's armor, right you get your plates of armor You could get you would much rather if you would much rather want to get shot by a by a pistol round It's gonna hit you less and part less force on you less likely to to break it or to get through it um And when you have that much depending on the nature of his armor So bullet the bullet doesn't disappear, right? Um, it will It's gonna spall out in different directions little pieces of shrapnel will go here and there It's not often it especially if he's just has a smooth Um, like so one thing I like about a suit is it has that little guard under his chin Uh, like nice would have that v-shaped bit on their breast plates that would stop arrows from sliding up If they hit the breastplate and hitting their you know necks and stuff like that um so It it just there is an aspect of if you I'm totally fine with the idea that he has special armor that stops bullets from getting through But it's still like it's like getting punched really hard Especially if it's an automatic weapon and that punch just keeps coming with every bullet Uh, so him walking towards the guys as they light him up in the chest is like man That's that must be really hard to walk because this is basic like physics stuff If you if you're the guy shooting the bullet you're getting the recoil of the gun pushing against your shoulder And that means that the guy who's receiving that bullet two feet in front of you He's getting that same thing. That's being you know, and that's happening to him Uh Which is where my which is which will come back to talk about later in the movie But yeah, it's do I buy it? No, there's too many bullets flying around in too many different directions And it's the the fact that he just gets shot that many times And it it's it's definitely done for spectacle. I wouldn't have had him just tank it in those kinds of ways Well, I think it's interesting that in the first fight. We see what a pistol does it knocks him back a bit That's one shot Whereas this was many many more shots, but but it's almost like the way that it's presented We're meant to assume that the bullets are just weaker. Um, when in fact they it seems like they'd be a lot stronger Um, yes, probably now I I would need to I would need to see to be sure I'd have to see what kind of guns they had but in a in essence If one pistol shot because the guy Yeah, the guy who shoots them It's with like a little snub nose revolver like a little like a little 38 or something like that And it does that to batman. It's like, okay being just Just fired on like that at such a close range Hmm Falcone and uh, Selena didn't seem to hear or pay attention to all of the gunfire in the hallway Yeah, I don't acknowledge it when the guards acknowledge that they can hear from in the hallway the gunshot from within, uh, the little chamber Is the is it like um, because it's his office. Is it a soundproof door? Do they ever do anything? But what I just said is that they can hear the gunshot Area in the hallway remember and then they turn around because the elevator I got it. Yeah, so Yes, absolutely guns are loud guns indoors are extra loud Falcone is there trying to like strangle Selena instead of I guess because the gun is around Oh, well actually before before you go into the scene I was thinking one thing that would be really cool with that scene in the the darkness when they're fighting in the hallway Is when it lights up when they're shooting, right? And it lights up the room and they're shooting at where they thought batman was he should just be like behind them And then we see That would have been really cool instead of them just shooting him when it goes dark They have no idea what's going on. It's because it's dark But batman he can you know, he's batman in darkness is where he thrives So I would love the scene of them shooting at where he used to be bullets hitting the wall It's like this is exactly like he was over there. Yeah, they still have some Um, yeah, and then it just lights up the fact that batman's behind them He's moved, you know in the darkness You don't typically think of batman as tanking like a full round like a full magazine Yeah Like to perplex me so much. It's like, um, he's batman. Yeah, like batman's tanking bullets He tanks punches, but like he definitely don't like get shot. He can get shot Yeah, the whole meme was that he's in the shadows and he never gets shot at because he's so good at evasive maneuvers And to be fair, this is early age batman. So I'm totally fine with him not being as Accomplished or experienced in that regard, but I don't I guess I don't know that Tanking like didn't last for a lot of scenarios, but not I'm gonna Climb out of the elevator and just walk toward all the people with machine guns like okay. That's that's just stupid It's a cool shot perfect smoke bomb territory because this scene by the way would have worked great with smoke too because the light of the guns would It's like yeah, because it's like your headlights and fog if you're if it's really foggy and you're driving Sometimes your lights can hurt because it it bounces off the fog so much and creates glare Yeah, yeah And it would have really lit up the smoke in a cool way and we would have seen more silhouettes Now it would have been bad ass kind of shit You can get away with right as the elevator opens smoke just piles out and they're all like It all clears and then they go to inspect the elevator And we get that shot where they're all looking at it looking in and batman's just behind them the whole time And we're just we're just appreciating the fact that he's got the complete jump on him gets to do Whatever he wants now because they just they didn't anticipate that Through the smoke or something just and that's not even anything right you can come up with really clever stealth stuff Yeah, there's a there's a distinct lack of cleverness for a character who's very intelligent and is a detective um He like I said earlier he sneaks up on uh, selena So much that it becomes like a meme in a sense where she's like god fuck stop doing that But he doesn't do that with the people who are trying to kill him Um, man, I've just seen something that's made my head explode Oh, man. We sound all right. He's batman as in he has plot armor. So his arm of being OP isn't an issue You have put you have put the cart You made it even worse It's batman so he's supposed to be badly written. Oh, no, you're pulling a shad. No This is not we're so the so to read it again It said his batman as in he has plot armor. So his armor being OP isn't an issue That is That is very much a cart before the horse in the sense that your recognition of him as being the main character in the story That he's not he doesn't get special rules in the batman world. Yeah, his protagonists don't exist in the real world Um, it's not yeah He the idea that let's say that his armor worked. Well, we can't even say it works Perfectly, but it works as if as it's been portrayed where if he gets shot by a pistol It will make cause him to flinch it will impart force onto him that saves his life But it will stumble him just a little bit That's what's been shown to us in the movie So therefore a much more deadly firearm imparting far more force and far less amount of time Is gonna do that to a much higher degree But apparently it turns on enough much like mando when he gets shot Sometimes right he the actor knows to like stumble back But a lot of the times he just gets shot and it doesn't affect anything It's like he isn't shot at all. It's just clearly Well him getting shot in the first place like It almost makes sense to me with star wars ammo that it wouldn't impart physical force onto him It would like just heat up his armor or something and like if he takes too many hits then he like, I don't know he gets burned But it's like it's an energy weapon. Surely it doesn't impart physical force Well, it's gotta have there's there's probably gonna be massed to it, but it's it's a weird I don't even begin to know how it works. That's a badly written. He's still vulnerable with the armor like Is he though He doesn't act like he is easy though. So okay, but So Hang on. So hang on. Where is like totally invulnerable? What have you got that from because that's not the problem. It's not that he But I'm like what okay, I'm happy. I'm happy to totally disregard those observations entirely because it's like It's totally wrong and worthless. So Yeah, that's that's the conclusion. I just reached this People bob go off at his face and it's like he's he's vulnerable. It's like Smashing his face into a metal beam Like just be clear we have In media, we have depictions of people who are wearing body armor and we have like war footage and stuff where people get shot And then they're like, they know they've been shot And they're wearing armor and they're like fucking that they're checking Themselves to make sure that like am I okay? And they're like, oh fuck the the are like or the helmet took the bullet or the the armor took the bullet And it's like it's a very traumatic thing because you you escaped death because of it and Is he inexperienced or is he not? I feel like we're we're turning one off and turning on the other kind of Between scenes as to which one kind of helps it out and I don't feel we're being consistent with it In fact, I feel if he's I feel like if he's a new batman, he'll be he would be very afraid of guns He's like, oh shit this fucking gun's at me. Jesus christ I would also be willing to concede that yes all of us were wrong for saying he is completely immune for damage So I don't remember any of us saying it. Uh, we were wrong for saying that Oh, that's the that. Oh, here's the thing. That's the opposite of what we've been saying. I think that's where That might be where the confusion came in. Yeah, I think so I think so. Uh, well, I think the Let's take an example from another batman story arkham city So very early on in that game in a cutscene batman tanks a shot that is aimed at selena This is only from a handgun, but he takes the shot And his arm like his kevlar underneath his suit does the trick it tanks the bullet He's fine, but he's still it still hurts for a little bit. He stumbles. He falls It's still like a substantial hit and that's that makes it to me much more compelling that Although he can take the shot. He's still going to hurt. He's still going to hit the ground He's still going to be vulnerable for a little bit when he takes that shot I think that's much more compelling than just it's bouncing The bullets are just consistently bouncing off of him with with inconsistent At best repercussions power. Yeah Yeah Yeah, if you get shot and it makes you stumble right the stumble isn't the only bad thing you've experienced there That's also enough force imparted on you like, okay So like if enough force is imparted on your chest play a very fast moving object to make you stumble backwards That's also hurt your chest, right? It's like I have heard being shot While wearing body armor is akin to being punched now. It depends It depends on the vest depends on what you're shot with but people say that depending on It depends some people when they get shot with body armor It's like they someone just chucked a rock atom Some people when they get shot they feel like being punched it depends But like that's how much of a pussy you are. Whoa Yeah It's directly tied to your sheer You're just your sheer force of will But typically a lot of people yeah, if you're if you've got a strong enough force of will you don't even need the vest I think that elevator sequence where it happens after selena's first attempt at killing valcone Yes, it does because um when the lights go off she misses I found that very disappointing Um I that definitely bugged me in the theater in the theater. I was like I unironically thought to myself Is he about to affect the power in such a way that she will miss the shot? Please. I beg you. Don't do this to me Um, I is not what they're going for. I think that's what they're going for But there's no way she would have missed because he would have had to physically move faster than the Bullet in order for that to happen now Was something that makes it very confusing to me is it seems to me in terms of the way that it was cut That she shot before he ducked She missed Yeah You know what I mean like it's presented out of order. We need to see him move or she shoots You can definitely miss a pistol shot, but man, he was standing still Not at that range. Not at that range. I just don't see how I'm missing that shot. I just don't see it If anyone in 100 with 100 accuracy I could give anyone in the chat a gun and tell them to make that shot and they'll make it No one would miss no one would miss. I mean, you know, some look you're the gun expert, but I still feel like that's an over exaggeration I I he was how far how far was he in front like four feet? I think it was like two meters or three right two or three meters Which is it wasn't far. It was in the same room basically like seven feet. I think That it would be it would be very difficult to miss I agree with that. I don't see how you could I don't It would be shockingly difficult just just to clarify the reason I'm pointing this out Right is you know if I put a gun to your head pull the trigger and the bullet misses I think that's a hole. However, if I miss you because I'm 10 meters away That's Not that bad, you know the contrivance versus hole. I think her missing here is just a really big contrivance Oh, yeah, like a 10 meter shot is I mean, that's that's what 33 feet or so that's Yeah, that's that's that's one thing, but I feel like he was I guess I'm going from memory, but I felt like he was just right in front of her Uh, she just yeah, she misses Uh, yeah, I I think that's a total you gotta you gotta fix that that needs to be fixed. She should not miss What if it's just she never shoots and then the lights go out and she's like fuck Or like she's about to she's about to or she's saying I'm you know the daughter of da da Oh you But I'm going to you know, I think I've been waiting for this for a long time You're gonna get what you deserve Then the power goes out and she's not like sitting there with her finger on the trigger like I would still say that's pretty convenient that she hadn't finished his speech a few seconds earlier, you know Yeah, it yeah, it's better But I still would we got we have to come up with a reason why he doesn't just die when she pulls a gun on him There's got to be a reason for it and the laziest thing to do is to just be like, oh, she just missed this point blank shot, I guess Very easy shot to make yeah, there's no denying or whoop the gun jammed. I'm like fuck off Just don't know just stop. We got to do something a bit. We've got to do something better than that. Come on Next time by american Nice So this day I am told that is not any problem because guns aren't that reliable from chider or something I'm like okey-dokey I was not I was not even aware that when they're talking about china and all that's it. That's a racism And then I think it's a high point too, and I don't even think those are made. I don't know. I have to see that again Um The scene ends with he gets there. He stops her from uh, he stops alina from killing falcon And then they uh, they they'll take him out to get arrested and he's like, um, I ain't saying anything I'm not saying nothing and then when he meets jim. He's like, uh, you know, I own all the police. I'm uh, You know, I ain't going to jail and then we go outside There are many police officers who are the non corrupt police officers That are jim wrangled up Wait, did I miss something? Well, it's possibly my favorite part of the film is when batman stops her from killing him Oh, uh, yeah, yeah, right. Well, you can slow down a bit. Yeah I just I that was the peak of my investment. I felt the most in that moment That's the most I felt throughout the whole movie was just her desperately trying to execute him and batman just reassuring her over and over again You don't want to do that. No no Yeah, that was that conclusion, you know given given what's happened in the story When moller said the one moment of the film and I said the one moment too We that's the thing we but we finished each other's sentence on that part standing out as the part that we were really into Mm-hmm. I legit really liked it Yes, it's it's a good payoff for both of them um, but uh, yeah, he So he he gets brought out and he's getting arrested by the police. Uh, and then um, we see uh penguin come out And they have a back and forth of him being like, ah, you know, you're a stooge. You're an idiot Um, penguin then pulls out a gun to shoot falcon um, but then there's a Can we just Angry he's here. I what the fuck. Yes, he is here. He's just here to chill it out. I yeah He uh, he he hooked up with him again. He's just chilling out. I legit last time when I was watching it My face my fucking mouth dropped. I was like, how are you here? What the fuck you should be in jail If you remember he was in there with he was playing pool with falcon when bruce showed up to talk to him I think I might have missed that because I just didn't I believed I wouldn't be waiting for him again. So Go ahead How How could that be possible? Because I I distinctly remember That in club penguin the pool is closed Nice nice one. All right. Yeah. All right. Well, I was saying Uh, I had heard before I saw this film and I don't know I can't remember who said this But they said the first hour is dealing with penguin. The rest is riddler and so which by the way, I don't think really Is like I don't think that represents the story at all No, so no, so I thought No, it's not the film Yeah, that's true So from hearing that when I was watching it and the the car chase with penguin happened and after they talked to him I was like, ah, so he ends up in jail and we won't be seeing penguin again I guess or at least not until you know aftermath stuff What do you just showed up here? I was like, what the fuck are you doing here? You should be in jail, man You should how are you here? What I uh, it fucked with me so much and then he just pulls a gun I was like, what are you doing? In front of every cop in the city who isn't corrupt Literally all of the worst cops to pull your gun out And then some kind of like and you do it reddit level law degree person who's like, I didn't pull the trigger Just someone beat me to it just in case it wasn't apparent what the issue is Penguin is definitely in jail now. If you wasn't before he is now Yeah, there's no there's no Person which you might you might be thinking gentle viewer like well, yeah, he ends up in jail from there, right? You're like no They beat him down, but he gets to go off into his own maybe they just can't fit him in the jail Oh man, that's amazing. There's this stuff in that. I just well, you know, he's a jerk. He's a jerk So I'm okay with it. You're like, oh Gordon man that like that penguin guy firing a fucking uzi at you Do you want to press charges? No Okay What about well, it's not actually it's not actually You're you're going to jail. Anyway, Charlie whether you want to press charges or not Um, but but as it turns out Gordon put it another good word, you know We all make mistakes once like the force it makes it all we were all we were all on edge at the time He uh Falcone it it wasn't shot by the penguin. He was shot by a sniper Across the road because the riddle bring him into the light and then you'll know where I'm at Now, I think that's cool in terms of reincorporating the riddle I feel like at that point you start you forget about that last part that it's like that's the thing that will That's when you're going to find out who I am. Um We we can't jump too far ahead yet because I know something to talk about they go up and The place that he was in that he's escaped from is where he was the whole time doing clues and stuff and and uh writing all of his stuff down and this is where we find out that the reason why the riddler was able to figure it All out was because as part of his job He came across something to do with renewal and when he decided to look into it and keep digging he uncovered basically the whole conspiracy He had he figured it all out Himself I don't because I don't remember that scene. What was his job? Uh, I think it said it was like a forensics accountant or something like that Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's all right He works with numbers which would explain how you could dive into like renewal stuff because it's all to do with Money and start to trace things back I can believe that with that as a thread and if he's smart Which it's safe to say that he is that he could work there and figure out One very intelligent person who's very driven can accomplish a great deal of things Yes, and I believe that the riddler is smart enough that he can absolutely do it I'm mostly fine with the riddler's time plus knowledge plus tools that he did it. Yes, I've seen complaints about Uh, specifically the the his end thing. How did he get away with getting all that stuff done? I'm not sure that I find it too hard to believe I don't find it that hard to believe personally Um, I think that the riddler's overall plan is like pretty solid. I don't agree with you there, but that's okay right Well, I get what I mean is I guess in terms of connecting like a to b to see whether or not motives and stuff I think we'll have to talk about But like does it does anything seem incongruous in terms of the information he found out and how the information was presented As part of the riddles or do you think there's buying up to this point? The only thing would be right? Well, we we need to get a little bit further along and then we can start talking. Yeah, yeah, sure Um, well, so while they're here they there's a bat in a cage with a bunch of rats and it's the uh, the last letter that He has oh, I I remember we mentioned the fireproof thing said see you in hell The one that was meant to be read by Batman after Bruce died um, this one it just says inside my confession um and Oh, no, sorry. I've I've I think I've jumped the gun. Um, they they arrest the riddler before they go up to the uh to the To his his office They got a call that he that somebody went into a coffee place and so they find him sitting there So he turns himself in I thought that was funny in that they said a witness spotted him leaving the apartment and going into a cafe Whatever and I was just like so if that person hadn't spotted do you think he would have waited there and been like Fuck i'll call him because clearly they don't I'm right here Next to it So And and you would expect that they're gonna fan out and start looking around so well, so what i'm suggesting is even if they Look around I don't think you can look at old dana and be like clearly the riddler. You right right right now I'll get maybe you should have been there wearing its mask. I guess I just I don't know why I don't know. You know, they would have recognized this heavy breathing That's probably I don't know why um, they they made it so that a witness spotted him as opposed to him calling it in himself But Fine, I just thought it was funny because if if someone hadn't spotted him was he just gonna wait forever Or must have called the phone must must must have called I think it was riddler who made the call. Oh, that's actually a fair point. Maybe it was him Yeah Yeah That makes more sense. I'm more happy with that. Yeah Yeah, yeah, um, should we talk about him turning himself in now or later? Uh, probably a little bit later because we get the Quote-unquote the motive and then we can talk about it Well, yeah So we turn back to what we found out how in his office how he had figured it out And then we have the thing that says the confession and then I believe it's at that point that um Batman gets told that he wants to talk to you personally specifically And then that takes us to Arkham Oh Sorry Oh, no, well, I'll come anyway Well, is it worth mentioning they have they have looked everywhere in his apartment They have definitely they've got a forensics team in they've looked everywhere. All right. They've found all there is to be found I'm not saying this for any reason at all So I don't remember this is when he goes back or not But I do like the shot when he reaches into the bat. That was that was before That was a cool shot. I liked it um So It's also worth noting that he saw up on the walls stuff to do with that gives you an indication of hmm Does he know batman's secret identity? Um And uh, and then he's like, oh, I think I think I'm the last target So he goes to arkham and he's sitting there and riddler's given a big old talk about a whole bunch of stuff um, I really like the performance personally The first half of the scene. I'm afraid. Yeah, I really liked it up until this the wailing Yes, yeah, I liked I liked it until the way Um, because it's such a weird wailing like it's not even like that It's like the least passionate wailing I've ever heard he's just sort of going This is Feels like it goes on forever that the first one is like, okay, I guess. Okay, stop. Please please talk again. That's like loud Um, like that's the only scene where the people giggling throughout the whole film. I was like, yeah fair Uh The the the sort of through line for the um the the the first half is he he keeps saying things like bruce wane in a way That's a little bit concerning And uh batman's just stared there not not saying anything, but he's certainly thinking about everything including the existence of the camera Um, this this is the scene where I am like I I think it is like the most impressive I guess display of acting as batman Like all of the you can read so much in every glance and the expression in his eyes probably mentioned So how the fuck is batman walking around and being happy pally with the cops that has access to riddler Yes They're the good cops. I think the film legitimately forgot it feels that way they didn't address this at all forgot It's almost like the other scenes didn't happen. It's so weird time a bit Yeah, so I I like this in terms of it's it's cool because There is reason to believe that he would have figured this out somehow But also it makes sense that he hasn't figured that out either. It could go one way or the other um So I don't think it's I don't I think it's cool in terms of leaning into like freaking us out that he's figured it out And then it's like nah, it's just damn. We didn't get him Um, if he had figured it out, then it wouldn't make sense in accordance with his motivations. Um that he tried to kill bruce wane Uh, well, yeah, but remember he he talks about his motives after the fact um Oh, wait, no, sorry, but no, but you have pointed out something that's interesting because if he sent the bomb to bruce Like at that point in the story before batman had figured it all out Um, yeah, it doesn't I I guess that's I well, maybe It doesn't fit with his motivations, but we as the audience don't know that yet But that's but I feel like that's indicative of the that you have come to this conclusion incorrectly and the film Confirms. Yeah, that he didn't know that this is bruce. So like it's not that it's not that there's a problem here I guess other than Maybe it doesn't make it. Well, no, no, no, no. There is no problem here there because bruce has no reason to believe Um, that like the riddler was his pal and likes batman a whole bunch. That's what he figures out later. Yeah Jumping the gun a bit there. Um Yeah, he says like This is the part where he starts to talk about how uh, he was an orphan Nobody really gave a shit about his circumstances. Everybody cared about bruce Even though he was rich and taken care of While he lived in a shitty orphanage Um and even own his blood Yeah, what? He didn't even own his own blood Did he own his own bone marrow? No, that's just um a different thing. It's about to be a weak story about it. It's about owning it. Yeah, no, yeah No, just he was a very unfortunate orphan. He that was just unrelated. He didn't own his own bone marrow. Um, that's a coincidence and so thrived Ridler basically In a bit of a roundabout way it says like yeah, we work together. We we really showed him didn't we you know, we we really did it um And course batman's like what do you mean? We like there is no we we're not working together We're not I think you're underselling how funny his response actually is No, uh, like I don't no we were You're insane like you're you're psychotic and all that. Um, and I guess maybe this is the part where I open the floor to So, uh, what what do we think about this is a motive? What specifically now the I mean that he was working with bruce that he uh, that he was working with batman to do all of this I'm not sold I think it's a bit silly He clearly wanted to use batman as a tool, right? I'm not sure that I'm not sure that he believed he was clear cut I think he wanted batman to figure it out and he was going to give him a bit of help Well, yeah, I think it's clear it's clear from the off that that's what he wanted I think you can present it this way he figured it out But it's not as simple as just giving this information to batman you need you need Because otherwise the information becomes available to the police including potentially the corrupt police The like if you can guide batman towards an objective of yours and if you perceive batman as being somewhat outside of the system I can see that lining up Um, and I think a big thing that works in favor of this interpretation of batman on my side to some extent would be Batman to the broader world There's not a lot of information about him and what he wants Which I think is on purpose in terms of the thing that's definitely what's going for Yeah, don't hurt me communicated very poorly to the world what his objectives are as a hero um There are things to pick up for example We've so the reveal here is that riddler thought he was working with batman the whole time with him And two and always remember you might be like oh That kind of just makes sense because everything up to this point has been interpretable on batman's part And i'm just sitting there thinking like yeah pretty conveniently actually if you look back at some of these scenes All of the like there's plenty of implications like all it takes is for you know Like the da when he's on the phone with him all it takes is batman to be like What's it going to take for you to stop doing this or what's it going to like like what's wrong with what are your plans riddler or like Anything introspective about Like how we're going to solve this problem because if he avoids asking any questions like that then riddler will never have to Wonder if batman is on his team, but you also have to worry about riddler never clarifying that with batman It's just an understanding he has and then it's like is that a fair understanding He's like it's kind of weird considering how much batman works with the cops. He fucking hates all of them You know like yeah, but batman, you know, he's he's all about beating up corrupted and bad thugs and people He's about justice and stuff. He's riddler sees himself as that, you know, and i'm just like yeah That's not really enough for me. I don't think riddler would believe batman is on team riddler, especially without clarification Uh, he seems like a pretty smart guy despite the wailing Pretty big and stuff With all the plans he has he has to have been put together to some extent and the idea that he's like batman's my teammate he's gonna enjoy watching With me as we drown gartham. I'm just like are you insane? That's totally not batman's mo dude I think it would have worked a lot better for me if if the riddler thought he had like unwittingly Had uh used batman as a tool as part of this thing like no you helped me do this like The fact that he's delusional about whether batman is on his team doesn't make any sense at all Here's here is a big thing that I think makes it a lot harder for me to fully understand Uh, all of it. So Something he says to him at the end of the conversation is like, oh clearly you want to smart as I thought you were You haven't figured out my end game essentially uh, because he's like he he's Batman is surprised by the notion that there's more going on And I guess to jump ahead a bit What the final clue was the first thing that we saw in the film the murder weapon It is a thing that you can use to remove like carpets The reason why bruce eventually figures this out when he goes back to the crime scene is because the cop there points it out to him It's very Very very helpful It's like here this thing you can remove. Yeah, it's covered with it. Can we restate that please for for those listening batman's Got a clue for this. He's done. He doesn't know what to do. He goes back to the evidence Well, I say evidence room. It's the it's riddler's home. I guess And uh, the friendly Yeah, yeah, well, so funnily enough when the cops saw him and was like, you know, what are you doing here? I thought we were doing something else I didn't realize the whole reason that cop exists is to put batman onto the fucking case. I was just like, oh, that sucks I thought he says which which causes kind of more problems He's so fucking lucky that this cop isn't the kind of cop to be like calling back up and being like batman has broken into The fucking evidence place. He's doing all kinds of shit. Yeah, because he shouldn't be working with the police anymore Police should be very anti batman. But like putting that to one side trying to arrest Batman picks up the fucking first murder weapon and he's like, this is interesting that the guy's like Oh, that's a carpentry tool. I know this because my dad was a carpenter or some shit. It's like fuck off I grew up surrounded by carpets. I'm sorry He merely adopted the carpets. I was born in it molded by it The end by it the carpet I was I was born in carpet. In fact, I got carpet burn on the way out The carpet tool is used to remove um the carpet and We have we have a big old map showing Seven locate. I think it's seven locations are along the seawall for gotham. Oh something we probably should have messed up earlier Gotham is uh The the oceans are really high up. Uh, and there's a seawall protecting this part of the city Yeah, um So what we find out when a real change which is written on the map is entered into the computer That the plan the big plan at the end of it was to blow up the seawall um So to bring it back to the scene in terms of the riddler thinking batman was on his side and being surprised that he hadn't figured out the seawall What did he expect batman to do when he was in the crime scene with the police to Open it up and see it all and be like, yeah cool Like is that what he thought? Anybody would have a perspective on it at all I was so clarified. He didn't expect the forensics team would check the fucking carpet Yeah, you kidding me? I guess the thing is is that when they because when they check Because the big thing is they don't need the video if once you see the seven dots, you're just like oh, shit Let's check what's at the seven dots and you'll find the vans with the bombs in them Um, what do you guys find? I found a van. What did you guys find? I found a van. What did you guys find? Oh, just like a bunch of equipment. Yeah Oh, it's um, it's you know, one of those um, it must be the explosive man's van, you know Also, please there are some people. I don't know if it's just a joke, but some people are saying like he is insane I'm like, please stop saying that The reason why that is frustrating to me is because the riddler In my in my mind in this film who is like super duper really strong. There is a very clear motive and goal in mind Um, that he's trying to achieve it's not just that he's Is it like I want to give him more credit than just oh, no, he's nuts You know, there's no reason why he does anything. It's like well, no, it feels like he does have a reason for doing anything That's clearly He is insane, but like he uh, he he has a clear goal He's a functioning Crazy person. Someone said you do realize the plan was over at that point. So please listen. I beg you What we're pointing out is the riddler thought the batman already knew this plan and therefore the car Therefore the knowledge of the vans would be available and stoppable before it's conductible by the police This is a problem for riddler, but he doesn't seem to care So if riddler was insane enough if riddler was insane enough to think this is a good idea There's no way that he would have been sane enough To conduct the rest of his plan as flawlessly as he did he's Like he if he's insane enough to think I'll just reveal my entire plan to all the police before it's uh It conducted right then, you know, why is he not like sent a letter to fucking the commissioner saying i'm going to murder you tomorrow My this is my address They never knew about his hideout. He gave it to them. He handed it to them What Remember the whole the whole Goal the broad goal of all of the riddles was Batman is going to help me execute my goal and he is on my side for it And the fact that he's surprised that batman is unaware of the plan at the end means that bat Like do you not understand what that means in terms of him being surprised? Oh, you're my friend. Wait, you're not my friend Oh, but you don't even know about that. Wow, you're not smart at all. Like do you man, I'm Like I'm really struggling to see how it's not he had already set up the vans like yes Yes, you're getting there. So the vans haven't exploded yet And if the police know about them they can stop them Do you understand? Yeah, and and think about it So batman was in there with the police Which he definitely knows the police were in there because the police everywhere and they arrested him And batman was with the police When did he like if if batman? Took out the carpet while all the police were there, which very much could have happened Like damn, you know It's not too late. He keeps it. It's too late. It was not too late. They had plenty of time It was only too late. It was only too late when batman went back After he hadn't figured it out. What movie did you watch? Because it's plenty of time It was between batman finding the thing under the carpet and the police being in there Should it should have when they should have found the carpet thing There's like they should have found it when they first got to the apartment and turned everything over. Oh my god He's just not listening. Yeah, literally moments later. They blow up I am talking about when they first get into the apartment. Thanks to riddler if they find out then which was riddler's plan Which is what riddler believed that batman had done That's an important part as well that riddler believed that batman had figured it out You have to understand this right? This is so straightforward as a flaw. Come on. I believe in you That's after riddler got caught yes In fact actually is before he got caught because they hadn't grabbed him from the cafe before they got into his place Yeah, like I don't I don't I don't understand what the source of confusion is here That was this hard to accept. What's wrong? I don't agree No, no, no, no, no. No, it's not The riddler believes that batman has figured it all out That is what he believes when he talks to him in arkham. He hasn't though But the riddler believed that before coming there While all the police were around presumably that batman had taken off the carpet and seen everything There's just something there that is mismatched Like in terms of what he believes of batman and what his plan was The carpets betray you because they belong to me I feel like it's that's that's kind of clear at this point, right? We we all happy to I guess we have to call Baywood now as well to the explosive in his face It's just it would be awkward for riddler knowing that he's like, yeah, batman's my bro and he's like, oh Right. Yeah, absolutely My batman's here. Who said that? He blows up batman said Um, I wanted to talk to you, but I want you to be next to this explosive, but I don't want you to die It's also confusing. I guess we haven't talked about it either. Why did the riddler turn himself in? Do we think? Um, I think the movie's argument is that he would like to Use this as an opportunity to meet up with batman and they can watch as gotham drowns from arkham asylum Which doesn't make any fucking sense at all. Which is safe. Well, he says the arkham is safe That's not good enough. You can be safe. I know right or do you can be safe? Yeah outside of arkham go to a hill Or any tall building Like the the water that eventually wants his calm is what like three feet or something. How significant, okay? It's very higher than that my dude. It's pretty high once it's it's Calm we see places once it's calm where it's three feet deep. It's very high It's it's no there are places where it's still on the ground where it's like It's it's like our chairs in a restaurant and you see it's like just going to the bottom of the chairs It's like we see it flooding a lot of the city where once it's calm rags Look when it when it's but when Rags is talking about when it's calm when it no stop When we see at the end of the film there are areas of the city that are super underwater Like there are parts of it. Okay, so for me to be correct. I need one area that is three foot deep No, so so what so the clarifier is that the entirety of gotham is an underwater part of gotham is underwater This part of the city or other part Yeah, yes, that does but like I have no idea why you were talking about the calmness of the water like So I can explain that so when the water rushes in at first it will be higher than when it is calm Yes, but when it is calm it is very high and you will That's the case in the city In the city you already counted your own point by saying that there's different levels throughout the city Yes, but like I'm willing to say there. So my whole point is that there is safety to be found outside of arca No, we agree, but the implication of what you were saying was when the water was coming through and it was violent I was like, oh just find a curb and you'll be okay. No, that's not what I said at all I said when it's calm that is not calm literally find a curb Exactly when it's calm Yes, he needs some he needs to be somewhere while it's flooding. So what what I am trying he could be anywhere when it's flooded He could go to his own house Specifically what I was trying you made it sound like when it was calm the water wasn't that high In the cities in the part of the city and I only have to be right as long as this one area where it's not He could stand there. I'm sure you'll be fine Yes, but but we're talking about like a different part of the city You made it sound like the water wasn't that high in the flooded part of the city There was a part of there are several parts of the city that are flooded at different levels. You've already said this No, no, but like you remember the part because because the imagery that I was thinking of it was uh, there's like a part where um You see the steps of uh, like the bank and it's super high up You you made it sound like oh when it's calm, it wasn't that high. It's like Yes, it was like in passing Why are we even talking about this? I only need one place for him to be able to go. Why does it matter? No, I agree with you on that But i'm just saying it when you were talking about it obviously gonna be places that are more dangerous than others I would just expect him not to go to those places Did you not say that torn apart? Did you not say that like the water was only three feet high? Is that not something that you said? Yes, but I didn't want to imply that's everywhere Well, you like why did you say when the water was calm like what was that? That wouldn't make sense for me to say anyway because there's obviously gonna be places that are deeper than others for where the water cools But you said when the water is calm not when the water is violent. What did you mean by that? So this is the problem What I'm perceiving is a riddler walking around looking for places to stay Go to a curb where the water is calm in parts of the city where it doesn't go as deep as nine feet or more Simple why would you say it like that other than why doesn't he go because it's quicker that it's not Flood and I figured that I'm talking about going to a safe place not heading well. No, but Well, no, but but I mean when we're talking about in this city like the reason why he He signs it like Arkham is above water like it's not even it There was no water that went through that part of the city Why are we pretending like a bit of water is gonna kill him no matter where he goes He has to go to no no what so what i'm trying to point out is like I'm not sure why you're focusing on the idea of like go to a part of the curb when it's calm Just don't be in that part of the city when it's flooded That's all i'm trying to say is practically A joke at this point. I'm trying to imply that it's that simple for him to avoid water instead of going to Arkham I agree, but you said stuff about fast water and calm water So it's it's higher when it rushes in why is this hard Is it high and when it rushes in necessarily? Yes. Well Wait, no, hold on like it has to be higher when it literally No, no, no, so it'll be higher in certain parts, but as the water is progressing through the city It's going to progressively get higher right as more water from the ocean floods in Like it will in the pool it will eventually get up to ocean level, but it will never be above it Um, yeah, no, I agree with that But like when like the water is when the water is rushing into the city Surely it's only going to get higher as more water from the sea starts to come In to the city As more contents of the water gets in parts that were only like a foot underwater are going to get higher Just because more water's coming through the parts where it pools. Yes, it will never be higher than when it was rushing in It will never be higher when then it was rushing in in parts In other parts it would be it will only ever get as high as when it rushed in if we're talking about parts that are Below the where the standard ground was related to the water like literally like I said where it would pool then Yes, but I don't know why we would consider them Because that's part of the place that gets flooded see and that's what you're relying on while I rely on riddler's desire to stay Yeah, I agree that riddler has a desire to say so I'm hoping you can now understand that when I said it That's where I was referring to not everywhere in the city Okay, I I think I think that I I don't see why we would need to just talk about that other than just go someplace My criticism is he doesn't need to stay in Arkham. Is that simple right? Well, yeah, I agree that he doesn't need to go to Arkham to stay safe He should just go to the area the Arkham is He can find a curve to stay alive in places where that will be applicable wherever that may be Implicable wherever that may be. Yeah, I gotta be careful now in case you think I'm talking about every location everywhere I wasn't thinking that you meant every location That's what I've been torn apart on when it was like the simplest point ever And it's like what I should have said is there are places that are dry and he can go there Yes, I agree I'm glad we got through this I think the reason I'm annoyed is because this is a major floor in the film and it's almost been torn to friends That didn't make sense so so I guess to clarify for so I guess I guess to clarify for chat. We are We are in complete and utter agreement that the Say from the flooding we are Never Yeah, what I like about these engines is how productive they are. Yes What we learned is that all the things that the water would be higher than it would be Don't start rushing it. You already agree to that. So don't even try Thank you so much. I'm gonna hit you cease and desist That's that's for if someone's violating your copyright. So, yeah, one of the first questions I asked springy when we first talked about this film Was I need help understanding what riddler got caught for and I even cited I think I did some rags actually Loki got caught to fuck up bruce and to fuck up the um the helicarrier and to fuck up the avengers before enacting his plan Silver got captured if someone can correct me on this. I think to try and kill em when people break him out of mi6 whenever whatever Joker got captured to be able to get at lao in the station because he knew he was being held there Why did riddler get captured? I wouldn't drown He could watch from the safety of arkham instead of the safety of outside of arkham Like on the street next to arkham well above the water or a curb somewhere I I do not know why joker allowed him to be captured Are you telling me it took you it took you like a week from when I sent you that meme to figure out the joke Because I hadn't registered the connection between kerb and kerb and then you said So so for reference, yeah, I just sort of never really got it Do you have the picture with you to show us? I don't so i'm so fucking lost right now So kerbie and the forgotten land is a new kerbie game and they have like kabi and koneby all of those memes Um that everybody really likes I saw one where it's kobi made out of bread It said kerbie c u r b y and it was kerbie, but in the shape of the kerb I sent that So I think it was molla and jay about a week ago. I didn't and jay has at this all the image Jay has at this moment about a week later finally figured out that yes kerbie get it because it's a kerb I didn't realize that there were like different kerbies called like kabi in that. I'm not i'm not I don't think you need that. I feel like I feel like I Didn't see the text right? I just saw Yeah I was like Okay, so kerbie is part of the pavement Kerbie is a stone. He's a rock. You gotta show that on uh on this It wasn't going through that. I wasn't trying to figure it out. I was like, okay. That's an image. I guess I tweeted I don't dude even without the text when I send even without the people and they're like, oh, that's a picture I guess and then this is the goal Dude, but even without the text. Come on. It's a good investment to bring it out, right? I wasn't sat there going. What could this possibly even was I? I just looked at it. I just like oh, that's an image and then I moved on with my life And then I heard someone say the word kerb and I was like, all right. That's that image. That's what that meant You solved the riddle man, I did solve the riddle um, this is um This is an interesting chapter in efab just this last 20 minutes I know it's riddle Um, so yeah The bombs go off the city is being flooded. This is a real change in the riddler's mind now. I guess pink and pink and kerb all over It's uh, it's something that I think we talked about Um, does it make sense that the riddler who has specifically been targeting corrupt officials within Gotham's uh city That he would flood the city No, I don't think it does. I think it's a huge breach of his this is a Is it with mentioning? It's antithetical. Do we at this point know his full plan? Does it's been said on his little thing? Oh, this is in the video where he's effectively said like this is a real change. We're gonna I meant like the other thing he's gonna do the uh With the rifle Oh, oh, so what killed the new mayor because I I take issue with both that and the flooding I take issue with both as well No corruption behind her that we're aware of she seems to be pretty altruistic It does seem like I think we could say it's definitive. Shall we do one than the other in order? Which one do you want to do? Sure. I don't mind. Let's start. Let's start. Do we do the flooding? Because the flooding happens and then we get, you know, the main The best argument I've got in favor of both of them. And so as far as I'm aware for the flooding one It's a matter of trying to go after mainly the districts that relate to corruption and to force most of the corrupt people into the same area to then Execute them because that's where they're likely to go. It was that it's so many says right that people are likely to go Go to that area because it's it's safe Uh, yeah, the the garden Well, well something that is worth noting as well as she was already there because she had won the election And that was where they were holding the celebration. Yes Right So, but so the idea being then That he wants to like shepherd everybody into the same area so that he can then get out the people he wants to kill So it seems like he wants to kill indiscriminately. Well, so it does seem other than the mayor I hope it I hope it's more than the mayor because Otherwise, why don't just kill the mayor? Why do you well? Why do you need so many people? Why do you need like 50 people with guns? And then of course is it to be just stupid? Or the level of collateral damage involved in this for innocent non corrupt people Which seems to and I guess we got to do deal with this like so many people be like he's insane He's psychotic. He's like he has a fucking reason He has yeah consistent level of understanding of the events Within gartham and he has a motivation to do things like we shouldn't just go. Ah, he's crazy. Fuck it. Like come on Yeah, I feel like Then than that then just yeah, it makes sense to him and his mind this makes sense He's operating in what he believes to be a line of logic Like is it crazy that he's doing all this stuff? Sure, but there's a method to the madness So there is a method to the madness for sure He's not just going around randomly punching people. Well, it's something it's something that batman says himself He's not going to target you gordon. You're not corrupt. That is exactly Yeah, that feels very deliberate from the film to say that the riddler isn't just a crazy person What if his but what if gordon's dad was corrupt? Oh Oh, no So he's not gonna target anyone who isn't corrupt until the end when he's just gonna The whole city indiscriminately basically To steal man his position my what I would say is the logic behind it is well I Like we can't change the system from within because as far as I can tell the system is Broke into the core and I am the product of that I am like a victim of a system that has broken to the core. So screw the whole like No more system destroy it completely that that would be the No just No, they're just But now but we could live in a wet society A wet society We live in a wet society a lot of society These people are for the man the person is against he was against the old man my dude The old mayor was corrupt. She hasn't done anything yet. She's just That's another defense I've seen is he's like he he assumed she's corrupt like everyone else like no He doesn't he finds out who's corrupt. He knows who's corrupt. He doesn't just kill indiscriminately They make a point about this in the film. That's the whole yeah, that's that's why there's it's so weird to be like Oh, yeah, Bruce Wayne. We gotta kill him. We gotta flood this district. She dies too That's why there's like a line where I go from okay. He's like this is in are they doing like It led me to believe that they would have an aspect of this film Where he would go to the batman and say yeah, you and I we're trying to do the same thing But I'm willing to do what it takes and you're not and they have that kind of confrontation But they don't really do that. I don't think it just it goes in a different direction With him thinking batman's his friend, which is like, oh, that's worse than what's in my head He thinks she's up to there's so many says and it's like so we're pointing out that that's bad He shouldn't think that he has no reason to the idea that it's just like nah, they're all corrupt. Okay. It's like So he's just not the character. I thought he was then And also all the people he's hurting by flooding the city are all the people are also just victims of this corrupt system that he hates so much He clearly feels a level of camaraderie with people because he has all the followers And he he talks to his followers and his private videos way more different than how he presents himself publicly Yeah It's been so great talking to y'all like that's how he's talking he does go a bit flimpy where he's like, oh, he's gonna have real change Yeah, like he did but still it's it's definitely more restrained Um, he said he has no trust in the system. That's why he's cutting it off by killing her. Yeah, that's the issue We take thank you for pointing it out Then why does he not kill? Why would he not kill a gordon? point Why doesn't he just kill like everybody who works every fucking way every Every form of institutional power just killed them all In which case if that's his goal and if that's his goal, what a dumb way to go about it Like you're setting up some blood to be like no This will this will affect the rich people and the institutions the like the least You're gonna get martial law So good job with that and now you have the people to pour and downtrodden or just the regular tom dick and harry's All the businesses are the little corner store. They're all flooded housings So this is something that I guess because the film is obviously saying that he is wrong Like that that that his idea of how to fix it is just totally wrong And the reason why he thinks that this is the way to fix it Is because he misunderstands like what the goal of batman is But misunderstands it based on mistakes that bruce has made in terms of the way that he operates I would say that it is very much on purpose that The revenge against the city Screws everything up Um, I guess it's just that it feels like there is some uh Some weakness like thematically you're saying it works thematically it works But the pro I guess it's a question of why is this what you mean Is this well, so I think the theme is very clear because it as we find out I guess we are jumping ahead a little bit. Um As it turns out Yeah, like the riddler and his group were thoroughly inspired by batman After he gets into a fight with one of the dudes in the place with all the guns when they ask who he is He says um vengeance. It's like oh shit Like batman inspired these people because they do not understand what he's trying to do and that is his fault In part because he all he's focused on is scaring people There is no idea of like inspiring of how we ought to make the world a better place It is just lash out violently against the people you're opposed to So like the theme of him then deciding i'm going to blow up the sit the the wall and like flood the city And then at the end it's like this is just going to make things worse It's like yeah, that's the point vengeance isn't actually going to fix anything We know that it didn't fix anything because at the beginning of the film we find out crime is still rampant Like nothing's nothing's changed on that front batman himself hadn't actually done anything to stamp out the institutional corruption Um within the system all he'd done is beat up cruners joke the riddler had figured out all of the uh The corruption within the system, but the way that he went about fixing it was screwed Whereas if batman was a little bit more Involved in the affairs of what was going on. Maybe he could have looked into the renewal fund and figured everything out Maybe he could have tried to affect change in a more meaningful way I think that is the intention, but i'm not sure that I would say that it is fully Supported by what is in the story in terms of making complete sense I do like this movie just in case you needed a reminder I do I do like this film So these guys wanted an anti-hero, but they got a villain and now they're blaming the film for having a genuine villain so I feel like I love it when people tell me what I want. That was pretty damn My friend you had just told us you considered him an anti-hero after he'd fed someone to death to rats like Wow, you've got an interesting point of view. I wish you the best of luck secondly, uh the This person says uh I took it as the riddler wants to kill the new mayor because he sees her as a sellout for wanting to work with the system Instead of destroying the system in order to change it. So Batman does that correct also lines to Lines to we need lines We need more. I think to support this and I think Considering how long this film is it is interesting that we are absent. Some of these are references, which I Man, it feels like when you think about this film It's like it really is for the most part small tweaks Like just an extra line here or just calling a little more attention to something here The like if you make a few minor tweaks you strengthen the film significantly um But You know in the totality It's like you think about the amount of conveniences and things that are just like not the things that don't line up so very well it's like It is just It's worth thinking about I never said he was an anti-hero you're treating ever such I don't know where the fuck you saw in this podcast that we treated riddler as an anti-hero He was always What we thought was interesting about him was We just said that his got a coat of ethics So so villains can have motive that makes sense to you Um, I feel like oh man Do you wonder if like arcane has changed like because people like oh we're silka You know, I think he's an anti-hero and he had motives and reasons It's like no good villains typically have reasons for what they're doing that you can understand It doesn't mean we yes Like everyone thinks that the only villain that exists now is michael mayers the guy runs around stabbing everybody with no motive He's just like no What the fuck where are we what has happened? So because the divide i'm seeing here is um anti-hero is the An anti-hero is a is a dubious character that makes sense and a villain is a dubious character that doesn't make sense Which is completely not Is A code of ethics targeting corrupt villains is a trait of an anti-hero not a villain I like how you've skirted by feeding people to rats like we just Don't worry about that. He's he's targeting corruption. That's what he's doing. He's just like batman um I asked to get back on track in terms of talking about what happened. So yeah the bombs go off Everybody's congregating at the that's like got them square garden where the mayor was the new mayor And um, we're gonna get everybody in here We need to take care of it and get everything sorted and then she goes out to like try and calm everybody down And we see that all of the riddlers henchmen are up on the roof They shoot her and hit her in the arm or like the shoulder. She is hurt So I thought it was the side like in the middle in the side I thought she hit in the gut. I I default to you. Yeah I left with a gut so she was shot in a way that was non lethal at least with medical attention Um, and then Gordon comes out And uh drives her off to safety. Yes. I just wanted to say if we rewind a little bit I uh laughed yeah in the set of it because She's she's gonna go out there and make her speech and go on. It's like, whoa, don't do that We was you know, it's dangerous out there and then she's like, I am tired of people not standing up for what they believe in She walks out there and gets shot Yeah, because like and and I thought what was gonna happen Was she actually is like no, I'm going to do the right thing And try and get control of this and you know be you know good and a good leader And so she goes out there and starts making her speech and the guys on the roof are like wait Okay, this is what we expected. She's actually like that could mean and then they start We start having these they understand that she has the courage to speak even though she knows she's about to get shot sort of thing Yeah, something like that. And so there's almost yeah, there's this It's like, well, I still gotta stop you obviously because look what you've done and then batman stops jumps in By the way, is it not a little dangerous for batman to set off tons of explosives on a glass roof? I was gonna mention that and then drop down. Yeah, you say it like you know It's a theory, but it's just like if you watch it the fucking shards of there are some big shards That is falling on the ground There are many I was confused. I didn't think batman is going to come down. I was like, oh, should they put explosives up there as well? And then sorry, is it well Uh, you're right The the there's a lot to this it's like he took the time to plant explosives all the way around the roof Just blow it all open when he needs to get in himself. What is he doing? Why are you doing this? Is it because it looks cool? It does look cool, uh, but The civilians and it would take you more time than you need to waste to get here Yeah, and it's not stealthy. That's another thing. I guess it's worth mentioning. Yeah If your armor can deflect bullets, surely you can tank going through a glass window if you just cover the face hole with your sleeve or something Uh, and I sorry, I didn't want to jump too far out as well But uh on that earlier point, but I don't think gordon would have let it go out on that stage with what he knows Yeah, I've not he wouldn't just let her basically kill herself I I I heard the same thing from a normie film watcher Interesting. Um, yeah, they were like, no, surely that like the police were just they're just not gonna let her do that I don't understand was I guess You can't stop her necessarily, but yes, you can. Well, I mean, I mean Well, I guess uh, right like in terms of imminent danger for your own safety, ma'am Like we cannot let you get out go out there. She's like, let me go. I'm going and you're like, no you can't Like if like like if there's an assassination attempt on the president And he's like, no, I could take him and he pulls out a gun or whatever. He's like I'm gonna take him. I'm gonna get them all and they're like, mr. President, please We're not letting you do this picturing trump or biden doing that What's amazing is that they would do it for Milwaukee Trump would do it because he's just that confident in his own abilities And biden would do it just because he's crazy and doesn't know what's happening Yeah, um, Trump's like, you're sure I can take on these guys. I could take him How dare they And there's like Real danger, right? Trump realizes that there's extreme danger, but he thinks that he is more dangerous than any extreme danger Whereas the danger just doesn't realize We have the greatest danger and I I have greatest danger and I know it. You know it. We all know it It's like the unstoppable force versus the immovable object but in like the to be I just want to make sure rags point got through there Which is that if the gun pulls out a pistol says i'm gonna fight them the secret service Just grab him stuff him into a car and get him out of there like it's like no Yeah, like have you guys seen the footage of ronald reagan the assassination attempt on him where they get where he's just shot at And in just seconds Fucking secret service is pulling out mac 10s and he gets shut he gets shoved into his car so hard He like gets hurt because they they speed him out of there like it's uh Imagine Credible throughout on her life. So I just don't think yeah, and by the other part of this I think that's really worth mentioning is if anyone takes a fucking gander outside. You will see all of the rifleman Yeah, they're not they're not hard to spot Um from the stage anyway, it's yeah, because she sees them. She's like, oh shit I wonder if that moment she was like, maybe I made a mistake Well, that's the thing if you are going to have her go up on the stage The police are going to go with her at least at least you'd have the cops go up with her Instead of sleeping her on her own very disappointed that uh, gordon let that happen I don't think he would have but consequently it's fine because of course she bleeds out and uh, she dies as a result But I guess I guess here's the thing though if you've got like you've got like 10 people up there How do they all But So there's like 10 guys up on the roof with guns shooting at her while she is slowly the I don't want to say I think only one of them shoots I thought only one shot and hit her they were so they all have guns and they start shooting at her as gordon drags her out of the way Oh, shit. I didn't realize that I am just wondering How do they all miss, you know the only thing that I could think of is that these are just random people who don't actually know I don't know man. He held that first shot Yeah, that's the thing but I'm like it's It's it's where like I can like in the batman fight that's about to happen which I have issues with There's some leeway because they're not like trained soldiers are just people who have guns now But oh, there's oh We're we're teed we got too much too much stuff is set up to where that's not enough of an excuse to warn everything Yeah Because if it's just random people and they've never shot guns before And they just think that they're better at this sort of thing that they Yeah, like oh, yeah, I'm gonna go out and be a hero and fix the system a blah blah blah But I just like they don't know that you have to do things like cite your scope And actually learn to aim and put things in and they're just like larping as revolutionaries without having any actual applicable knowledge Maybe but we don't know enough about them. It's it's a pure guesswork Do you remember the moment as well where gordon goes to fire back at them? But he realizes because there's like 30 that there's just no point Yeah I I appreciate that decision for me. I think it makes sense. I'm just saying that's how many there are like um Well, yeah, and yeah, he stops and then that's when the explosion batman jumps in he does this whole big fight Fortunately because all these guys have hooked on to there are the the hooks he can knock them off without having to worry about killing them Which as as cap I I don't know I don't know it came across as that was why they have it that way so that you can't kill Well, so it came across to me as that After it all started happening because I hadn't quite appreciated it at first But yeah, that that is probably why they're wearing them so that batman doesn't have to kill them But he does dodge a bullet that then shoots another dude. So like yes, you know I guess he is cool with allowing them to kill each other. But even if he doesn't kill them Wow, I wonder if I wonder if he watched batman begins that he would be like, you know what that's fine. I first watched this scene Yeah, do you want to go for it then? Yeah, I don't know if you need to assert dominance. Yeah, all right. I'll do it malar I'm gonna more. I'm gonna pee on you now. Did you hear what I said or not because I finished what I said I legit didn't actually hear I said, I wonder if he watches batman begins and says, yeah, that's fine I'm not a referred to or Well, I guess what should he have tanked the shot? No, so so this is the the clarification I suppose there's a really interesting cause and effect argument to be made about Did you cause that person see because what we would say is it's totally fair You avoided a shot that shot went into that other guy. Yeah, it killed him But I mean, you know, that's you cannot be held responsible Choice. Yeah, yeah, whatever could one argue that you still cause them to die It's just you're not held accountable for it because you're just avoiding your own death Um, I mean, I would say that these guys sort of caused it themselves by doing this, you know, he had a he had a role to play Yeah, we depending on how you want to get into the Yeah Like do you when you do the problem do you cause the the one person to die when you choose to rescue the five If you rescue yourself, do you cause the one yeah, you have the result to die and it's just like I just I think the important part is you're not supposed to be held to some kind of moral condemnation It's just the yes, you did cause that at least you had a hand in it Oh, we also are we also arguing that Batman definitely knew that that would be the outcome of him dodging that Oh, no, so I actually think this is pretty chill Um, yeah, I think that I'm with it. Yeah, like I The only thing I could ever say is I wonder if he would he I like his opinion On it, you know, I'd like him to see see what he's doing about this Not as chill. It's not as chill as what I initially thought was happening in the scene when I first saw it Um, I didn't realize that the that they had harnesses on right. I didn't notice that Um, and I saw that the first time it is very blatant time I I I I guess I just managed to miss something very obvious, right? That's all right. It happens It does it's like a Kirby thing and the first time the first time Like two of them get thrown off, right? Um, Batman shoots a grappling hook just before being thrown off correctly So what I think what I think is what I think has happened what I'm seeing this is that Batman has shot a grappling hook So it's lodged in their flesh and then thrown them off the side And they're going Jesus Christ nice And then they keep just being thrown off and hanging there from their harnesses and it takes me a while to be like I'm sorry. Is he doing this to every guys? He's shooting them with a grappling hook and then bringing them up In their flesh He does the tank a shit turn of gunfire again in this scene as well Yeah, um, yeah, well, well then but then the last one is that he gets shot with a shotgun and uh Yeah That's the moment for me where I was like, oh, this is this is a realistic movie and that's really really fucking silly and stupid Sorry, what do you mean? The when when he gets shot with a shotgun and he like flies through the air backwards Honestly, I I wouldn't know what the proper like what should have happened That that not that it's it's like getting hit by So if if you are state, let's say you've got a shotgun and there's someone right in front of you If you if you shot someone with enough force to make them fly backwards What should happen to you? You should fly back as well as a conservation of momentum Exactly. All right. So now if anything, yeah, so It's it's one of those it's it's another big gun thing that in movies that happens all the time where people get shot And they like fly back It's why a lot of times in video games if like that will only happen if if someone's running forward and you hit them They might sort of keep their forward momentum and fall down Or but that's not you you would have to have some kind of explosive round something that has more energy in it That isn't involved with the actual shooter, but the shooty But it happens so violently that he's thrown back and flies through the air That uh, I was just like, okay. All right. Okay. I do think it's worth mentioning by the way He spots gunman a and then he spots gunman b Notices they're in a line and moves out of the way of b's shot so that it hits a um As I said, I would love to know batman's opinion on stuff like that happening I would also love to know batman's opinion on working with someone who is using a gun Okay, uh, mr. Mixi Spittalik. Um, I'll just go to respond to you. Um, yeah for every action There must come an equal and opposite reaction So you get you fling someone across the room with a shotgun that shotgun's flinging you backwards in the opposite direction Equal and opposite. That's why he's already being criticized. He's already conceded. He said it's a movie He's okay. Oh, it's a movie In that in that case fucking anything goes fuck it. You've given up. It's a movie So fuck it. It's space wizards meant for children to hell with it all It's a movie Good job By the way, this is a very important thing because it puts batman in an extremely vulnerable position This is what like knocks him off the platform and he has to grab Like this this particular shot that violates the laws of physics and how he's been treating gunshots up to this point It puts him in a position where he needs to be saved by somebody else um Yeah, can we talk really quick about his no kill rule in general because I think in the context of this Batman's no kill rule in in the context of this final conflict I think it's stupid that he can't just incapacitate or kill these people But he doesn't want to right like principally Are you saying like he should make an exception because of how dangerous these people are to civilians or? Yeah, I think the idea that like There's there's clearly a difference morally and what it does to you as a person When you kill someone out of vengeance and when you kill someone to stop them from killing other people But that's also what a man has to grapple with so I really wanted to explore that I would love to hear his thoughts on all of this I I just I just want to I don't know that have we done that and did we do that in the nola movies at all? Like him exploring the no kill because well, he kills people when we had it We he killed he killed harvey to save a child But like That's that's a that's the thing I can see those events happening. I wanted to discuss it with someone I just want to hear him talk about it We'll listen to him on the back cast Hell yeah, um But like so and so that's a thing if I don't think it makes a lot of ethical sense for him to not realize That just killing these shooters to stop them from killing other people guys. We obvious thing to do We have someone chat. He said nope batman doesn't kill Oh, that's that's actually which by the way it seems to be against the trend Uh batman does seem to kill in fact he he tends to kill a lot in fact he has killed a lot in Even many popular iterations. I'm not just talking about sniders. Um Absolutely But that's not me. This is the thing. I'm more than happy for him to just I do kill I'm more than happy from the principally be against killing. I just want someone because what caps bring it up I think is a really good thing in terms of like if another if catwoman even was like you Choosing to spare all these people. Do you know how many lives have been lost as a result of that? Or something, you know the standard uh, did ever talk with with punisher the really good shit punisher I just want that to be explored uh and preferably before we see the results of all this But i'm willing to have it be that these are used as arguments against batman Um, but yeah always supposed to go on. It's that he definitely has a rule against killing people and it's You know a little there's a little there's some flumes in this film regarding that. Yeah, he yeah. Yeah, um, we I Feel like we don't we don't people always talk about it's one of some people would even say it is his defining characteristic Um others say that it's just an important aspect of his character And I think that is an important aspect of a character, especially a superhero, especially vigilante superhero Especially someone who dresses like a bat but in spider-man it's never It never seems to be explored with batman as much as the others Like living on the movies. Well, yeah, not in this we don't it's it's just the film acts like it doesn't happen Or batman doesn't acknowledge it and there's no Like it's not given its proper weight. I feel the him and cat woman pay off of just like, you know, don't Don't be them. Essentially. I'm just like, oh, I could really use some more on that Oh, it's a little taste because yeah, and there's a difference between Yeah, because he stops her from killing him killing him out of revenge Which is something that she doesn't want to do Because the ethical implications of that are vast, right? And there's a difference between Trying to send a criminal to jail when they potentially could get out again instead of just killing them But in this situation, this is about stopping active shooter threats I feel like the idea that oh, you can't kill them just seems ridiculous I it's yeah, because there is there is a there is a massive Chasm in between some killing indiscriminately or being fine with killing and I will only kill if I absolutely Have to that's a huge difference between those two things And a batman who will only kill as a last resort if he absolutely has to is still a very interesting character You know, you practically described in I think you could you could say that's caps Sort of position in the MCU from what we saw of him He was like, I won't kill but I will if I have to that seems to be what without saying it same for tony though Tony's probably way more. Okay. We're killing people um But a batman a spider-man they tend to try and stick to this as a rule And I just feel like it's got when you put them in these scenarios. It's gotta be worth exploring, right? Like you gotta Yeah Get us the the tools to understand it um I don't necessarily disagree with you that uh It's something he probably should have opted in for but the fact is like if we really if he varied to the core Principally will never take a life. Then I guess what we see is That's the way he's going to handle the situation Yeah, if it's a problem. I just don't think it makes any moral sense In this kind of way, sorry, you're saying what make uh, what which part in particular do you not think I don't think it's a I don't think it's a problem that he goes out of the way in this particular scenario It's not it's not a problem with the story that he doesn't kill these people But if if you know, let's just say god forbid He actually had a gun and was able to take a number of these shooters out in a quick manner It would save a lot more lives and yada yada. I think He would be perfectly justified In killing these particular people in order to incapacitate them It's not a problem that he doesn't I just don't quite understand The no-kill the no-kill rule in this context It's definitely something that needs to be um, explored like his relationship with guns in particular. It's not really I'm elaborated on here It's so uncivilized Um If we're I don't know how far this is moving on but are we up to the part where he's uh, almost knocked Completely out and cat will be saves him. Yeah. Well. Yeah, because he gets shot down And he's hanging on and then just about to shoot him in the face Oh, well, this scene was weird for me. I just can't place this logistically So y'all tell me out but the part where he's like hanging on with the lights and he gets shot at like 200 times I was not Yeah, we could definitely talk about that if you'd like though. Well, I don't know what else there is to say other than I was just like Yeah, just he really doesn't want to get shot. I guess And he even shows at one point he gets shot in the hand and he goes, oh wow like a nearly You know, like that hand's done I rely on this remaining hand and then he spots the the canister and he Gets the smoke bomb going and I'm just like, oh man, like I just don't believe you should be surviving this. I'm sorry I just I just yeah, you're just like just hanging there right in front of them And they're all shooting you it's like come on do something pretend that you're vulnerable You know, I wish all the little displays go out from all the shots like man That's a lot of displays. You do. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of them are fucking awful shot It's a great way to see how many really fired it up. Yeah Yeah, exactly. It's like, oh man, I'm really making sure to hit all the other ones they haven't hit before Maybe they just thought it was cool that if they shot part of it, it goes out And so they just wanted to be like It's like it's like popping the little uh the air bubble pack the what's it called the um Bubble wrap But guns in a tv screen Basically direct parallel Once you pop you you just can't stop Um, by the way, by the way, are we talking what was the what was the So I guess the point of all the gunners was to just shoot people indiscriminately So that yeah, that's what it seems that way. Yeah Does anyone know the definitive reason for what they were there for other than shooting the mayor? Finally, that's all I've got Because they brought like a lot of ammunition might be corrupt or whatever Because they brought yeah as rex just said they brought like a lot of ammunition Like a whole pile right next to the guy and the whole point is that he He knows that if they flood the city Everyone like the refuge point will be uh Gotham square garden So he knows it's going to drive a whole bunch of random civilians there So it seems like indiscriminate killing is the goal which I don't understand I'm across as without paying more attention that I actually for a moment They was like riddler's plan is to just kill everybody If that's his plan, why would you do it? Like this if you want to kill specific people because a flood is not how you kill specific people No, a bullet has someone's name on it a flood has to whom it may concern on it. It's it's not a It's not like a it's not a precision weapon It's just like well, I guess it's flooded the city now. I guess whoever is in the way is fuck you It's people who support the mayor No a lot of people so when This is still incorrect because that's worse the garden is identified as a location where a lot of people are Going to go to try and escape the flood anyway So wouldn't just be people who supported the man even though that alone I don't think is something that riddler would consider because if so, can we Why wouldn't he consider anybody who I guess like calls the police ever? You know to get their help. Oh, they clarified. He's insane. He's insane. There you go Oh Credit please He operates with a code of ethics up until a certain point and that's where we start having issues Because we're comparing his behavior with his past behavior that seem to be structured in order Yeah, the the issue is that we had something that was strong that has ceased Um, as opposed to it was all just he's insane. I'd like to give the film a little more credit than that Yeah, I think the film that I do appreciate Uh, and I'd rather not just dismiss it as he was entirely insane the whole thing Yeah, and then therefore we lose a lot of the we lose a lot of the cool stuff in terms of how thoughtful And relevance broadly, uh, a lot of the riddles are if we just say he's insane Again, I'm gonna emphasize it. Give the film more credit I think the film is plenty of that credit. I'm gonna have to with many instances Are we gonna have to bring up Cheryl? Uh, you can bring yeah, if you want well, I mean if you want to explain Cheryl, um, I feel like you could you could use an example like that sure well, like There's a when you have you have a good example of an insane character. They act consistently, right So just saying that he is insane is not good enough. How is this consistent with his character as he has been characterized? Well, yeah, if you take jinx, I'm fucking great about this it's just because like She is very consistent like she's an absolutely insane character like She's great. Um, she's one of my favorite characters in the show um She has very consistent things that she is insane about very particular ways that she will take certain things very certain like um If you ever mentioned something about like children or pregnancy or like people who are like or like She's consistently disgusted by dwarves. Like that's consistent with her. She's a she's a crazy person in a very specific way Well, uh, I not only is that a good reference, but yeah jinx feels like the relevant one because a lot of people in FAP chat would have seen us break it all down But uh jinx is completely fucking insane. His mind is completely torn to shreds, but she's very consistent Yeah, like we we see an event happen or a character say something and then she gets that information And it does something to her directly based off of that and this happens over and over and over and over She's not just doing things at random She doesn't just turn into a different person randomly. You don't have to have a character if you're insane You can just be whatever It does seem like a get out of jail free card for writing sometimes with people That's the dead end every time it's this makes sense because this but what about this? Well, this what are this? What this? What about this? Insane hey guys guys guys Luke and tlj. He just went insane Well, the thing they would argue that's unfair because luke wasn't characterised as insane while the riddler is clearly But he wasn't sane though in that film. No, but he went insane between films. Yeah, okay developed a mental illness I don't know it just feels like such a cop out So if anyone in chat is not gay and I just know he was insane he was always insane it's just that you know, he was insane because Um, it just his character didn't he didn't violate his character until a certain point and that was because he wasn't sane No, that's how the riddler works, right? So so so for those in chat not getting the distinction insane does not mean inconsistent it means It means you're you mean your mindset is complying to a different version of reality But that doesn't mean that that reality doesn't have its own set of rules that you are therefore following Does that make sense? Well, and we know that he does have rules because you don't spend this long Planning out something and concocting riddles that are thematically appropriate in in universe as well I mean as well as out doesn't matter in universe like you don't do these things If there isn't some kind of Throughline in your mind of what you're aiming to achieve It's something that you've thought about for a while. I do not think the riddler is insane Yes, but that doesn't mean that he is inconsistent that he ought to be inconsistent with himself Yeah, and I just think it makes him a hell of a lot less compelling if Our answer for a lot of the decisions he makes in this film is just I don't know. He's he's not like I don't even think that's what the film wants you to think. I don't think like he is insane. Yes This is yeah, I think the film is trying to present a character who is obviously not Comporting with uh reality in the same way that we are but has some sort of clear motive but um, yeah He's um, um, he's losing it. Mr. Boopman when he gets pulled up by a cat woman And and then they have a little kiss And then she gets dragged off by a riddler crony Who takes a very long while to figure out how it is he's going to kill her? No. No. No. No. He tries to stab her Exactly. That's what I'm saying walking What do you mean takes a really? Oh, so push So comparatively Had he shot her Yeah True. Why did he grab her? Why didn't he just shoot her in the back? It's very odd to me that he's like I am going to gut you like a little fish after I drag you away Sit on top of your clothes like okay It's a little awkward because you didn't need there to be another bad guy Um, the only reason you would have that is the adrenaline so that he beats him up really bad. I don't think you need that Yeah, because I don't know anything with it. We all know why they've done this like it's We know why it makes for a very Oh, no, is he gone too far? Forget about it. Yeah When you drive batman to his to his edges you start to be like, oh shit like who is this guy? You know, I love all that. I just wish it were You know, you don't literally have had it so that the guy shot her No, they they do do something with it rags. It's just that I Because obviously the goal is uh, he gets very very mad in conjunction with getting that adrenaline shot Pummels the dude So bad like needlessly And then takes off the mask. It's a guy I met before. Who are you on vengeance? It's like, ah, that's the point Yeah, I think that there are other ways that you could do that without the bad guy forgetting that He can just grab a gun and shoot her. I think we'll like that. They're again. I think we've already got enough right like if we You see the guy exactly the guy could even shoot catwoman it hits her in the shoulder or whatever And bruce takes that actually is she's been she might have been killed She's just like, you know, she falls to the side so he injects and goes fucking ham on this guy Yeah, um, it feels like there are a couple of things you could tweak that would just immediately fix the problem while retaining The uh, the cool idea, uh, there Because I because personally I think that it's a really cool idea and downright bold To have the villains be directly inspired by batman because of the way that he's operating I think that is a great idea Um, and I don't even feel like it isn't fully supported by what's here I think that there are I think that there are plenty of references It's just that there are things that are amiss. It isn't as strong as it could have been But it's a it's a great, uh idea and it's super relevant in terms of theme too Yeah, like I think I want to make it clear Them as henchmen or Is your thing about this? Yeah My thing my thing is it's about the injection Okay, so give me also that because my thing is directly falling from frames the riddler henchmen Being that they take this fucking city's corruption They're inspired by him as a leader to then take out the corruption and they see that like hey batman's kind of doing this too Like I think that's good enough for me. Um, there's just other elements, especially with riddler that don't sit well Yeah Um Have we so sand read the comics have we done in any of the live action films that the villains are directly inspired by batman? Um, we have not up until this point Yeah Like with the joker in the dark night, there's the question of escalation, but he's not directly So that's something that is often considered in batman the idea that his existence invites other people to Like it invites This type of it's it's like vision set in civil war right like our strength invites challenge it's like the idea that batman kind of The the villains will arise in response to him, but this is different It's that the villains arise because they're inspired by him They want to be him And the reason why they want to be him is because the way that he conducts himself as batman is not The right way and then we see afterward like Because I guess I'll just run through what happens now the the flooding happens The entire place is flooded. There is an exposed electrical cable dangling above the water And uh, he decides he's going to jump chop it these things. Oh, oh jay. Yes. Sorry. Yeah So It's not exactly important. Um, there's just a little story I have to tell is that on the way out of the cinema, right? One of the people I was there with had to go to the bathroom so the rest of us, you know We so I just stood around and waiting for him and as we were standing there These two girls came out of the cinema. Um, and one of them said, what do you think? What was it that he injected him into into himself? I didn't get it. And the other girl just looks at her and says Hey, it must have been kame I can picture you be very happy with hearing that I didn't actually hear it my friend heard that and then told me but that's what I've been said Have we brought up the fact that mostly everybody is like adrenaline, but there is The theory of course that it's venom Then well, I think it was green, right? I mentioned that Why earlier I think because we had a little tangent about goo Ah, well, yeah, like the implication being of course that he would have taken maybe Well, you did it for like 10 minutes. I'm gonna stop you Maybe um in year one all that, you know, it's just I don't know I think it's a neat idea to think about that he maybe defeated bane and he kept some of the Venom as a as a backup. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of neat Yeah, um, so I also liked that he had like a little A little thingy to open up to a little Because it's all armor, but he had like a little I don't know clip thing. I don't know what you want to call it. It was a little hole But he could just like a little hole basically. Yeah, the petrol thing for karn it A bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah a cap. It's like a cap. Um cap. Yeah, it was good That we talk about the theme of the film and how at least Or like what was seen so far that he is He he's he's been fighting people beating people up. He hasn't done a lot of saving and I mean He started to do it a bit more now towards this point because of recent revelations, but um This just hammers home. It's like oh damn you inspired these people because like the way that you are doing this and being Batman is not You're you're doing it wrong like making people afraid. That's okay, but like that doesn't change anything on its own Um, and so to jump on I'll cut the why which it probably should have killed him But that's just another example of plot a hummer of many in the film. What do you mean because the electrocution? Yeah, yeah I mean if you had enough charge to kill several people in the water then it should have Killed him several times over surely unless we assume that his suit is super duper good at like Stopping that it's I felt tricked by this film in one way because the first fight I felt was really grounded and he's showing him getting punched in the back in the back of the head While he's fighting other thugs going die, you know I was like, oh this film is going to do great in this regard, isn't it? And then I was like, fuck me. This film is filled with plot armor. It is significant It's a lot of plot armor, yeah It kind of did the suicide squad Mowed down all the people at the beginning to give the impression that There that plot arm was not going to exist in the film and then plot armor was rampant And then just in that in that mowing down Three the plot character the plotting put the plot important characters all survive and they're just like we survived somehow Yes So to round out the point though Once he's Someone I think feels they've counted you. Uh, the the wire was insulated. So it's fine. He gets electrocuted. He gets zapped Yeah, it gets stunts him. That's why he that's why he lets go And that's why everybody's scared that he might not come back out Yeah, that's why they do the dramatic shots of like selena and jim looking It's not because of the fall. It is because of the electrocution Yeah, he's survived plenty of falls The battle rank is metallic as well. I feel like it's important to me. Yeah, he got electrocuted You rewatched the film. Um, pretty pretty I want to talk about the flood really quick because They make a point of saying that the gotham Madison square garden, whatever the fuck that this is called is the safe point, right? Everyone should come here because it's the highest point in this region Except for the floor of this stadium is below street level so it pools. Well, so This reminds me in the day after tomorrow, we got to get to the library It's like what about just any number of these very tall buildings right next to you No, the library A place that's not even just any other building Yeah, it's it's below street level. This is not helpful like well Something that is worth noting though is that uh, they didn't close the uh, the doors That was something that was mentioned that they didn't want to leave people outside So I don't think they were given enough time to close what I would pursue any of their tall building Well, no, I I totally I I do agree in terms of there are other safe places to go in this area This is not a safe place At all Well, no, well, I mean if you had like steel reinforced doors that you can close to lock it in then you Would be safe and you can fit a lot of people didn't they go to the roof of this place by the end of the film They did it was on the plan. I think that was a plan, right? That might well have been the plan to coordinate to get them on the roof because I would have been safe And there's a lot of space up there. Yeah, I guess I don't disagree with the idea that it's like I try to give like a speech downstairs though. So like True I only give you speeches you all go to the roof Unless the speech was go to the roof. That seems a bit awkward Well, what I think the point should be here is that you probably shouldn't have put out a big thing If everyone comes to square garden, it should have been everyone get to a high place now Any building that has stairs Yeah, but you can go higher up um Step on a curvy So, um, I guess so I'm gonna I reckon I'll start from the beginning. So, uh, we we have a We've we've now come in uh to the end in terms of like, oh, yeah, they were inspired by you The way that you operate is not is just, uh um Bad essentially, um, and then once he falls down into the water We see basically like the first clear instance of him just flat out helping people Uh and nothing more than that just helping people getting them out of the wreckage leading them to safety um I love that moment. I think it's great feels like, uh feels like we are doing the um That it's very clear to us at this point what the arc of this film is for bruce as well as the broader theme Which is that What it means to be batman is not just to scare the shit out of people It's to help them And this becomes clearer like I guess we're jumping a little bit ahead at the end on the top of the roof When he's trying to help people get to safety and cooperating with like the national guard to save people and I believe Because one of the people who rescues in the water is the kid And I think it's the kid that he takes to to be uh to be lifted out Yeah And it's as simple as a jester as he puts his hand on your arm and you put your hand on his It's just like yep. I'm here for you. I'm helping It's like damn. I really love this as I uh as a message Yeah, honestly, like you're seeing him with that kid and uh having the focus on his empathy for orphans and everything I'm just like, please give this guy a robin. I love a god. Give him a robin. I want to see Like I would be okay with seeing that at this point. Yeah, I think I think it could work even in this grounded universe Absolutely And they mentioned blood haven't given robin his original They did Well, so something we didn't bring up but was brought up on my friend. I just I just didn't spot it Apparently hush was pretty heavily implied in this I think there was a hush yeah mentioned once. Yeah, um and as was disappointed because he thought that the film was trying to tell us that Hush was actually behind riddler um And the because riddler said i'm an instrument Um, but they they didn't uh do anything with that yet Uh, we might get him next movie I guess but he thought that it was going to make the film congeal a bit better to reveal that hush was puppeteering a lot of it But I wouldn't know I just wanted to make sure it was mentioned because I feel people would be like Why didn't you bring up hush? You know our favorite from batwoman There are some parallels to the batman hush storyline specifically the riddler's role in that. Um, not it's it's nowhere near being Um a faithful adaptation, but there are definitely parallels. Um There's a lot of fan love for hush's uh position in batman's story or at least From the ones that he was involved with and so yeah, you know For the people out there who are hoping for good hush adaptations. Like yeah, maybe next time. I don't know. We'll have to see We'll get him next time Get him next time um Oh, yeah, I guess uh That brought us to now the state of affairs as a good portion of the city has flooded martial law national guard here um, I remember when I saw that I was like, hmm, we're doing uh, I can't remember what the exact run it was that snider Uh capullo run where like there was wasn't it like Gotham was uh It was like a sort of a wasteland or like abandoned. Oh damn my camera was cold. Oh, um, oh no man's land Hold on uh Zero a year that was there. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I saw and I'm like, huh. I wonder if that's what they're doing Maybe it is. Um Okay That could be interesting. Yeah, it could be that on no man's land where Rocked by a huge earthquake that basically separated it from the rest of america. Um, and they had to like deal with supply shortages and I could see both of those being options to explore which is cool. I think that's uh, we haven't seen that before in the films nor But uh, yeah, like it his arc has basically come to its natural conclusion and then we Sorry His arc is basically come Get a laugh at that. I heard the laughter. I was like, okay I'm sorry I didn't mean it didn't it just spiraled out of control. It was just it was just an innocent laugh There's really no I wasn't even about to laugh about whatever it is It's not my fault. No one would have stopped if anyone else said I watched my hands of this See Wasn't me don't blame me So I I guess something that's worth mentioning now is that there is the implication that the penguin is free to take over because he's not in jail um Yeah, there's people out there who are like, yeah, you know because the place is in chaos. Well, it's like fuck you the riddler's in jail He's just sitting there Or penguin just and penguin was caught twice and he's still not there before this all happened He's just doing whatever he wants They left him to waddle around like a penguin Um, and so the last we got the final scene of the film. Um Selena is at her mom's grave and wait, wait, wait, wait. You're missing a scene. Uh, am I takes place at arkham? Oh, yeah, right. That's right. That was uh, oh, yeah Um riddler riddlers in prison, uh, but the joker is a couple of uh cells over and they're gonna be good old buddies in the next room probably Or apparently they're doing it. It was really cringe. Oh, it felt real good. Yo, man. Yeah Well, so I think my thought when I was watching it is can we like can we hold the brakes on bat on our joker a little bit? Can we like Yeah, I was I kind of got the whole joker again Every goddamn time gallery. Yeah every time actually All of this joker persuaded me up with his brief appearance. It's like, oh My initial reaction was all about of who they'd got like this is joker cash reveal I was like, I didn't recognize the guy and haul he persuaded me with with his like 30 seconds was that the performance was cringe Apparently that joker um actor was in Eternals. So yeah, it was uh, yeah, he played uh, druig. I think his name was Yeah, he's been in some good movies though He was in uh, he was in the green night. Uh more than right as you remember He was uh, he was the guy who ambushed him and took that word. Yes. He's in the killing of the sacred deer. He's in a bunch of stuff Barry uh, keegan, that's his name. Yeah, um, he's oirish Oh, buddy keegan. I hope we'll see that in the next film. Um, you need to have joker in the batman movies All right, you don't you don't have to who said that who said that Fuck off. I'm such a joker. I'm fucking That person to me I was air crow and all that stuff. Yeah, I I would be totally cool Mr. Freeze, please Give me clay face Yeah, like horror movie Too sci-fi to fit into the setting we've established Uh, it stylized enough that I think you could um stretch it because you've got stuff like the fictional drugs and Whoa, you could just have clay man. Not actually maybe he's just really good at making masks except not cringe like uh, like uh I don't know um That you got a lot of options. It's just like we don't have to keep doing joker like we don't have to keep bringing him in um But uh, yeah, I don't know Uh, and then hbo max show is it there are going to be multiple hbo max shows More more stuff of this film. Yes in this universe separate from the dcu Yeah, they're doing a penguin. That might get probably get confusing, isn't it? It might well I mean we'll have to see right because the flash is going to be super important in terms of like the other The other universe the actual the main one in the dcu Which I would be surprised if there was more investment in that than uh, this specific universe at this point Um Who knows though, uh, well, yeah, so the final scene is selena's at her mom's grave Batman shows up. They have a chat. She's gonna be leaving town. She asked him to come with him I asked her to come with her And um Yeah, he ain't leaving. He's gonna try and save gothham. She thinks it's beyond saving he doesn't because he's got a renewed sense of Focus and hope for the future Um And then they go their separate ways but not after Going on a little motorbike ride together Yeah Which I which I quite like as a sequence Wait, really? I do. Yeah Oh, I didn't what's the problem with it? It's not it's not stuck in gay No, it was it felt a little bit like they said their goodbyes and then they left in the same direction Yeah, it's that awkward moment when you like say goodbye to your friend and everything and realize you have to walk down the rest Of the hallway together or something To me it just feels like this is the real goodbye as they go Like driving in the same place together and then they split off right and they go in the same ways I yeah, considering how long the movie felt by that point I was like you could cut this you could she could leave you could cut on the scene of him with the skyline behind him Boom and I don't I I guess I just I don't see how we lose anything by having having the scene I I don't see how we get anything. No, we don't lose anything but except for time Um, except for precious time. I'm gonna agree with springy. I've already wasted. I like it. Yeah, sorry. I'm fine with it We're fine with it through the graveyard And uh, someone in chat said something interesting Which is it seems like they were each hoping that the other would change their mind that's like, yeah Maybe maybe there maybe there is the implication of that because she turns one way and he's going the other That is the decision. They are going their separate ways He's gone back to save Gotham. And then that's the end We did it seven hours Um Something I figure it might be worthwhile to see how you all feel about the movie after having talked about it We do in order. There wasn't after credit scene a really short one. Oh, was there There was Yeah, it was a really short one. Yeah, do you want to explain what it is? Yeah, I mean I can't tell you what it is. I don't know what it said though. So it's basically Uh, remember when he opened the ur when Batman opened the url with the riddler thing And you had like the little question mark and like the terminal the computer terminal It's basically something like disappeared and in the middle of the screen There was the question mark and then Did write something out? I already forgot It was like, um, the it was good. Bye question mark Yeah, goodbye question mark then it and then it was like the url on screen or something Oh, was your url? I already saw like boom and I couldn't see what it was It was the rada a lot of things again. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Yeah. Um, and then that's it um well why don't we uh Go left to right this time Yay capital. How do you feel now after having talked about it capital cap? Uh There were I I learned new problems. I hadn't noticed so I everything that I liked about it. I still liked and I didn't really find much that I I didn't appreciate the first time um, so I'd say Six five or six out of ten. Maybe question mark. I don't know. I liked it I could see myself watching it again at some point which is more than I can say for most dc movies. So I think that a really much would benefit you personally. I thought that the rewatch was super helpful in terms of clarifying a lot of things um, yeah I think I think what I would say is that there are certain elements that I think With a knowledge of where they lead you can gain a better appreciation for like the double meaning of some of the riddles Certain things that we set up really early on that we come down back to later um, I think I think it doesn't come through in a discussion when you're talking about Especially when the plot is there are a lot of moving parts in this film Um, it can be hard to keep track of them all at once and when you're trying to lay it all out as you go I think trying to figure out all of the mechanics can mean that it's somewhat overshadows um, the other aspects of the film that are strong um To which I suppose if I don't go next I think I am I think I am at a five Uh, whereas I think before I was a little bit higher than that. Um Because the plot there are a lot of problems stemming from it What about you j? Oh, I I've got to agree. Um, I came into this assuming that we would probably all end up at around like a seven or an eight um, and then this conversation has led me to notice a lot of problems that Like not only that I had thought might be there, but I just haven't registered But because like I I remember saying like going into this that I was completely happy to accept There might be lots of problems with the plot that hadn't noticed. Um, but I didn't realize that we would absolutely annihilate a lot of the action scenes Which was something I was very ready to praise this film for nearly Um So Yeah, I thought I thought we're gonna end up with this in a lot of a much higher position than we did I don't want it to be like understated how Interesting the production is right. It's not just like It's not it's I certainly respect this film a lot. Yeah. Um, yeah, I think that's something I would make clear I respect it from a crop perspective. It's fucking amazing The acting is great and even with the issues in the writing, there is a clear deliberateness to it that comes through There are just things that need and and like so many of these things. It's like a minor tweak Um, you know a little change maybe one or two extra lines just change a little bit and then I think it would just improve it tremendously Yeah, um, I think This doesn't feel like the normal kind of praising production where hey the effects are good and it looks Pretty. It's like no, it's It's something more than that the production is something of its own It's an artist. I love it. I'm very well realized I would say it's more than just the effects looking good. Yeah It's more than just the effects looking good and the individual shots being pretty It's something much more than that and I don't want it to be understated how valuable I think that is Um on the other hand the writing problems. I think probably take it to about like a five or six So that's where I leave it What do you think views? I think this film has a fucking excellent soundtrack that Gotham is this wonderfully realized world and from like Yeah, we never really talked about that. I don't think the atmosphere to the just every the buildings that everything about it It felt real. This is probably my favorite Gotham with maybe Some exception if I could I'd have to re-watch the others, but I'm pretty sure it's not been Robin. Obviously. Yes Uh Gorgeous performances and a pretty solid thematic through line but Batman has problems with the no killing characterization and his regard for civilian life Riddler's plan Partial nonsense and opposite to what I think he believes in at times Uh, and he makes several decisions that come across as not thought out at all Despite being incredibly important to just everything that we're considering in the grand scheme Will building regarding like Gotham PD seems flimpy at best related to Batman and it provides him great access to the case along with The plot basically bending in general constantly to allow Batman to do everything he needs to do um and then Any and Then there's the plot armor it's absurd and it fucks with my understanding of his approach to like all situations As a man who uses the shadows and stealth and gear and intelligence But he barges it everywhere he goes and just tags every bullet he can find And that's on top of making me unbelievable like I can't believe that he's ever going to be in trouble with anything In fact, if he wouldn't be significantly hurt, I just get confused Like I don't understand what he's trying to tell me. So with all that in mind Uh, I I think I'm gonna have to agree with cap. I am stuck between five and six I think we're dealing with such a mixed bag here. It's insane. Like I There's so much I like there's so much I don't like and um, I just don't I don't quite know what to do with it You know, it's interesting. I think that the easy thing to bring up right now Is like oh wait, so it's a similar school to no way home a film that fucks with the multi-verse and assassinates dr Strange I'm like, yeah, I think it might balance out to be similar because of the fact that Uh, we've got a lot of damage to a lot of people in this film I think characterization wise and the plot and the world. Um While no way home as far as we were consumed Strange was the only one that was damaged and then they brought in characters from legacy franchises and gave them arcs Like there's some impressive character work for the limited time they had for different people Trying to make this make sense without scale. I mean I which would you rather rewatch? I don't think that's a fair question rags I you're right. It's not sure. Obviously no way home. I um, so yeah, I think I think I could be argued to six. I could also be argued to five. Um I was I was really hoping I'd enjoy I did enjoy this film. I really did in fact I think my score from the moment of finishing it was like a high seven like like near eight Um, it's just that the more I thought about it the more I think it falls apart Uh, unfortunate because my god, this film's got a style and I really wanted it to be awesome Like like 10 out of 10 awesome, you know Yeah, what do you think metal the metal is Mola said all the things uh, no This one was weird for me because when I got out of the cinema. I was like, I don't know Like I get I liked it. I guess I think it's pretty good And now we talked about it's like, oh, there's a lot of not so good in this Because I said earlier it wasn't really super paying attention. I was just kind of watching the movie And I realized the plot armor stuff definitely the contrivances already But it was the most things I've seen so I was like, oh, this is probably gonna be Pretty pretty pretty well rated. I think after we talk about it But yeah, now that we went through all of this with the plopping flimpy The whole pd stuff again It's like, yeah I think I think too like Evens out like a five five point five ish. I would I would say Uh Yeah, I don't know I wonder if I want to rewatch it at some point I think it'd be interesting to watch it with the With a closer eye. Maybe if it's out for streaming or whatever or available on dvd I can pause it and even take some notes Because I I thought I go to cover those metals forge as well But now I'm like, I don't I think I need to rewatch it and really really watch it to do it properly Uh, because as we said, there's like a lot of moving parts And I forgot a lot of the movie right after I watched it And it was just like a whole feeling thing where I was just like, oh, yeah, I think it was pretty cool But yeah, that's yeah, I think that's that's it. Yeah, I did it What do you think rags Thinking that listening to everyone else. Um, I guess I walked out of the first viewing with my initial impressions probably being The most close to my uh, the score that I'll give it now Um, I know when I left the theater, I was just like Ha, ha, you know, I was I'm glad I saw it. I appreciate it But I didn't really feel strongly for this movie either way Which is odd because watching the trailer it gives the impression that you'd either love it or hate it But I really was just like, you know, it was a movie Um, and I and I think I'm I think last night when we were talking I was I said, it's anywhere in the four to six range Uh, I think I'm just gonna settle on a five I think for all the good it does and all the bad it does it just kind of Evens out. Um, I appreciate a lot of the shots. The music's great. The acting's good Um, I think, you know, for you was saying thematically. There's a lot of great great stuff in here But there are a lot of the conveniences and contrivances a lot of the inconsistent character stuff it, uh A lot of a lot of plot issues a lot of plot issues Um, kind of makes it to where I think it evens out and lands square in the middle at a five out of ten But I would say it is worth the watch And meme um, well, I'd say um What I'd say, um, uh, this is about what I expected, um to happen where I only had the one viewing ahead of time Um, and so hearing out the plot issues and everything it's definitely bringing into perspective What really worked and what really didn't and I think um, a lot of what I um thought really worked still Basically works. There's some character stuff in there that I didn't catch on the first viewing. It's like, uh Like there was some stuff with the riddler. I already thought was dodgy, but now it's kind of More coming into perspective. Um, how many issues that character has um, and of course, uh, some of the uh, some of the The plot armor is even worse than I thought it was and I and I already thought the plot arm was pretty bad um So I'd say it's definitely around, um, I'm I'm I'm about between a five or a six Um on this I definitely need to rewatch it again But at the same time I'm still this is like a version of batman I can be excited to see again. I think robert Might be my favorite live action batman having gone back through all the other films now um, and thematically I think this is probably the most fertile ground for batman to grow because he is um Developing into the character that I think a lot of us are familiar with and I think you can say that a lot about this world The penguin You can see that he's an earlier version of the more familiar character catwoman an earlier version of what we're More familiar with and I'm and I'd be interested in seeing that grow and like honestly like It is a more grounded Setting but I think it's stylistic enough that it can go in a lot of different ways Um, and it's honestly a shame to me that we're continuing to have to carry around the bloated Festering corpse of the old dce eu when I feel like Especially thematically a batman who is now opening up to working with others and opening up to being More than just the the broody one I feel like this is that's almost like a perfect setup To eventually work with other heroes and stuff like that and have a like I want this batman to meet a superman That's also really well realized, but I just don't I don't think that's gonna happen but I I think I think that if you you if you were to give me a choice between where the dce you actually started And this film I I would take this film in a heartbeat, but even without that I would still love to see this batman go up against All kinds of different foes. I think they need to work out their plot issues. They need to definitely I think I definitely think there's a lot of valid criticisms that Need to be taken into account, but at the same time I also think this is a far more refined product that I'm used to seeing out of hollywood nowadays and it's very clear that they did Um take their time and a lot of aspects. It's just um, there are obviously parts of the script And the execution that are still um deficient Um that that need to be ironed out in in future installments. Um, but I would say subjectively I'm basically still the same. I came out of it subjectively really liking it at about a high nine and please know I was going in So burned out on batman because he you just open up any streaming service that has dc films You type in batman you get assaulted with batman stuff. It's ridiculous yet Despite that I found something as and I wasn't even that excited for this one because I was skeptical from the trailers and everything But the fact that I had all of that and I was still able to enjoy it that much um I think there's um it did it definitely did something right for me even if there are a lot of Issues that need to be ironed out. So I think that's my that's my final thoughts there I think you and I line up similarly in terms of the enjoyment because it appealed this version of batman Appeals to me quite a lot and I would be super happy to see again another attempt at the detective story as the focus and it can be and yeah, and a continued exploration of What it means to be batman like what does it what does it mean in terms of how bruce ought to go about being batman? And I can see I can see very Clearly in my mind a future for this particular series that could be really great In terms of aspects of the character that we can explore um I am I am excited for the next batman film despite the issues present in this film think uh I think it's great potential. We've got a great great potential. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah Definitely like we'll remind everybody rest of the dcu schools at like a three at most with us at most of the just catastrophic um This and see what I mean if this schools I guess If this were in the dcu you would be that it would be uh, I guess if you put it up with the suicide squad It's like it's the contender for the strongest film By like a margin that is appreciable compared to the rest of the content in that universe. Yeah um I guess obviously compared to joker. It's like joker is though. I saw jay. You tweeted this and I Totally agree that it's like it feels like with joker and the batman that they've kind of managed to Nail a sort of gritty vibe. Yeah in these stories cultivated a style That they have seemed to like I could see people going from going to a dc movie Expecting something along these lines not necessarily You know, you don't want to back yourself into a corner and and force yourself to manufacture more of the same product over and over again um But you know in the same way that guardians was an experiment for the mcu. I could see the dce um that as a dcu if dc um Created more and more films like this They could see them experimenting in similar ways having their foundational style that they then experiment from And I think that could be really interesting and I think that could probably benefit them quite a lot if they continue in this direction I think something either with individual films or a new extended universe Well, something you mentioned in the tweet that I was also thinking about because meme brought it up Like you don't necessarily need to if you wanted to do more dc characters in this batman universe You could just do it with more of the grounded superheroes in this universe like green arrow or something Yeah, and of course Batman itself is like rich ground For having many many many many characters introduced because batman has a huge roads gallery and a huge cast of supporting players Yeah, I mean the thing is you could have a batman cinematic universe. That's the thing um That's the plan seemingly that they are going to do a batman universe where Batman is at the center and and all the other stuff spins off from it And you could they might even you know end up having Characters that they because like they're probably going to introduce a robin and then have them turn into a night wing and all this kind of stuff Right, you know, that would be nice. Well. Yeah, I mean You could even do Jason Todd but not have the Lazarus pit just have him have like a near-death experience and then I want to I want him to have a Lazarus pit that's guarded by a confederate war general Confederate civil war general. I want that Jonah heck Oh, man Is there anything else that you think needs raisin any pressing? We I think have we officially saw it because this is what was the last dc movie was it the suicide squad was yeah So they've put out two what I think are solid fives Um, yeah, um, so I'm like wow. That's kind of impressive. Um, not just fine Sorry Fives with like legitimately good things in them Um potential Yeah, absolutely with potential and if I compare this to marvel. Yeah I'm like what the fuck is there even to begin to look forward to Like i'm afraid for them to release release things and i'm actually kind of interested in what dc will be putting out So I mad That's how it is. What a flip. What a fucking flip And I I wonder if it's something all you had to do is get rid of zack snider You can fucking flip us on that I feel like I feel like in many ways the batman is the film that zack wishes he was making No, I think I think that zack snider makes the films that he wants to make. I just don't He's just bad I guess I guess no, I want to rephrase that. I want to I want to Is that coherent thought in my brain? It's just not it's I think I know you're saying in my mind I think I'm sort of yeah, I feel like this is if you took a How this is perceived as how zack wants to be perceived Yeah, I think I think that the way I think that when you see fans coming out of a zack snider film Or maybe not the super crazy ones, but the ones who are like pretty into it and they're going Oh, it's great for this reason and this reason and this reason they're not describing zack's work But what they actually are describing is this film I think it goes to mean if you put on your your zack snider your snideroid glasses and then you watch one of Oh, like if you watch Batman vs. Superman You see this through the glasses Yeah Yeah, this is what this film is what snideroids see when they watch a snider film. I think This is this is us getting their experience rather than the cringe In terms of executing on the eye looking at the yeah, the like the more darker elements of the character Um, yeah, and and doing it for the most part in a way that isn't cringe Yeah, where you have him being like, you know What what does it mean to use vengeance as your main motivator when bo versus do you bleed? Like all right Yeah Um, okay snider I I think uh Something that has been benefit and I guess it will become clearer at the end of this year because this is the first of five dc films coming out this year They make it a lot of films this year They got black adam then they got the flash They've got back y'all the hvr movie and aquaman 2 So making like five movies that seem to be quite distinct from one another. It seems like dc cares a lot less Now and I imagine it is a byproduct of how badly it's gone so far About really trying to make sure that each of these films connect and are like unified and cohesive It feels almost like you've got whatever ideas people have That you just sort of do them and allow them to execute on the idea more so to what they want Whereas marvel is a much more controlled environment by the looks of it It seems like that approach may well just yield better results not necessarily for a shared universe, but for like stories that are interesting and somewhat unique And can sort of achieve interesting things with their characters Not that marvel couldn't do that But it feels like at this point a lot of the way that marvel films and tv shows are made there is just like But it's all about what's next You know that that's such a big aspect of it But maybe we'll see that with these films considering like the flash seems to be setting up Like huge things in terms of the future of that universe But whatever batman's safe in his little in his own little club He's safe and that armor of his that's for sure Yeah What um Yeah, what are you thinking after all this? How do you feel about the batman because the thing is from what i've gathered this film is adored And then there's a small amount of people i've seen who kind of hate it But i feel like we have the most controversial position ever of being like it's pretty mid Yeah, it's got good stuff That's good. Lots of bad. Yeah This is let it's less um I think where the suicide squad was like super high super low and they just sort of eventually even out to a middle Uh, this one is a lot more I don't know. I feel like it's more that the waves aren't as high or or low in a sense um I think I think I get what you mean in terms of the like the plot in suicide squad is just completely Utterly screwed like it's because I feel like it's got two things in that movie which are characters and plot And the characters are yeah Yeah, but it's it's it's just like those are the those is a big negative and a big positive And those are really what kind of They're the biggest aspects of that where I feel like this movie has more that's going on Well, so I think something I would highlight is that uh, when we talk a lot of the issues we talked about were extreme Contrivances and coincidences. There were a lot less just outright breaks Um, yeah in the logic whereas like which now, of course, that's a problem But it's like it ain't nearly as much of a problem as just breaks where there is a contradiction There's just like a big contradiction that just breaks the story here. It's a lot of like Man, it's really lucky that this lined up at this time. It's really lucky that this went that way But they could have gone that way. It wasn't impossible. There are a few things that where I think it's like We might actually have contradiction. So yeah, I guess it's like the lows aren't as low Uh, and maybe because the suicide squad achieves a lot with character Um, I think the batman also achieves a fair bit, but it feels like it could have gone higher with the characters What is the general sentiment that you're seeing? um A lot of very like A lot of different answers go a lot of things like some people are saying this I haven't seen it So I don't know some someone said they're not gonna watch it. Um, I hope that's not because of us. I think you should yeah Yeah, I would definitely recommend this especially for batman fans. I would as well. Yeah Yeah, this is this is not a five out of 10 where it's just like There's nothing to it. You know, this definitely has a flavor to it that I would recommend this is this is a five out of 10 That's worth seeing. It's a midi film. There's a lot to talk about. Um, especially in terms of theme I think it has value. I think I think it has a lot of value as a film um Not just from the craft perspective, but also from the writing perspective Batman and if you have seen it a rewatch A rewatch does clarify a lot of things. I think uh, I think a rewatch is very hoped Fault with this film. I can see myself rewatching it, but it'll be once it's out not uh in this in america. Mm-hmm. Yeah Um, yeah, I suppose that's that's about that and since we're at seven and a half hours We will likely move Uh superchats to the catch-up Because uh for a bit we're a bit long in the tooth already the uh So but before such exits would be made We should we talk a little about who everyone here even is and what they're up to in life I think so Let's go left to right to make it nice and easy Hello Uh, uh, I am capital. Oh opinions. I have a youtube channel. Sometimes I make videos there. You should watch them Laya, uh, I'm working on a Because I'm working on a super I hope super funny video about the matrix resurrections and how Oh, uh, it's making movies making movies bad on purpose is good. Actually, it's gonna be great If you if you really don't like people like high top In terms of their video content, you're gonna love this video. Oh, I'm excited for it. What a great sale Dude he fucking adored this film. Yeah, it's like I know he cried like eight times or something He's he was it was like it was tailor made for him. Um, I'm sure his video Yeah, we'll go over all of the the stuff. We've mentioned that it's good But maybe even point some stuff out that I didn't even see that was good in the film Who knows I'm hoping he can actually come out with like a decent video because he's very passionate about Batman and this film Please don't be crazy. I'll hold your breath I don't know. Look at what shot on each. Is that Oh, I don't know about that like because like I don't know We're looking we're gonna consider watching uh, Ben Shapiro's review. Apparently that's out now That sounds like it would be very funny His star wars rankings were hilarious. I love the star wars Isn't isn't the meme did you talk about jay that he thinks that tross is better than this film? So I know so what he has said is that tross is great and that this film is terrible So I have I love I need to hear why That requires justification. I think I think that's a simple that's gotta be a fact at this point Like we haven't checked but yeah, it would make sense the Ben Shapiro believes the rise of Skywalker is superior to the batman, which is phenomenal Man, it's just very funny, isn't it? That's hilarious That was really funny Wait, hold on. Oh, oh, no, that's right because he tweeted about it So this was something that he said which I'm guessing will be in the review. He says this the batman hates batman as a character I fundamentally disagree With his assertion. How can and I don't understand. I don't get I I feel like this is the live action film That's gotten batman the most out of all of them thus far I don't know. Was he gonna say like is he gonna say like oh, it's um I don't know because it's got Is he is he gonna say like the whole film staying of being critical of the pure fear approach and just Is he gonna say that that's bad and that's anti batman? I wonder if you want to join us for that cover because that's That would be fun I'll I'll raise my hand for that as well if if you'll have me To bring back the same crew Oh Up our part two of the batman coverage. We gave arcane four streams. I feel like batman can have two Can have sir. Yeah. Yeah. What are you working on jay? Yeah, I am working on well. I've got some some merch coming soon. I think The efat audience will be interested in But uh, other than that You can buy bottles of my piss Yes, I'm a gamer piss Um Drinking it is not recommended, but you know, um, you don't have to live according to recommendations I was saying that for legal reasons. Um, and I've currently got a in a full critique of Uh lego star was the complete saga Basically finished i'm doing revisions on it at the moment and that should be out pretty soon. Um, you're gonna get some I mean, you don't know what I say in it though. Do you maul it well? No, no How could you possibly know what I say in it having anything but possibly say that lego is gonna get you destroyed I think I've made some revisions since you saw the video I might might show it to you again lego void um Mel what are you up to moe? What are you doing? um playing elden ring all the time Well, that's basically what I've been up to this last week. I streamed every day Elden ring. I think I streamed like 60 hours the last week Or me even more. I'm going to stream even more tomorrow more elden ring. I'm still not finished. Uh, yeah Also, I hope someone's making you nuggies No No one's making you nuggies. No one's making me nuggies I just gotta die What's the part of delivering? Uh, and yeah, the Well, I wanted to talk about the bad man on metals forge, but I realized One I don't really care too much about the movie that I want to talk about it and also I want to link them here if I do Sorry Just link them here. Yeah, I was like, hey, welcome to metals forge. Here's the efab. Goodbye Just have the have the editor put that at the beginning of this evening Or you can do the live editor can do it Just yeah for that. Thank you So I think I think I'll do just a metals forge on on on my experience with elden ring On on monday, I think that's my plan because I'm off work on monday. So I have time to do that So yeah, look up for that metals forge. Who are you? It's good stuff What about you? Ream repository Um, well, uh, Mandalorian video, um, is still uh, still going And aquaman is also being edited at the moment for refat movies. Um, I'm also thinking about, um, Maybe starting a podcast of my own for the simple reason that I have so many ideas floating around that I often I don't know. I feel a little sometimes I get overwhelmed with how many ideas I want to turn to videos that it ends up just not manifesting into anything So I figure if I just have something every week where I just choose a topic that I'm thinking about at the time I draw up some notes in a roughly structured way and I just ramble about that for a few hours that might be uh, there might there might just be a way to, um I suppose satiate that need and help and and help to focus the more, um edited work, um that Uh that I have in the work. So if that does go forward, I would be calling it the stream Repository both that because it would be live streamed And because it would be a both because it's live streamed and because it would be a stream of consciousness So it's kind of a double meaning there the obvious one and then the kind of foremost level one So that's that's what I'm getting up to Um, well springy. What about you? I got nothing right now. I'm just working Damn rags. What about you? I'll just working away working away. I um, I'll probably have I'll probably I'll have a I will have a dog bites video tomorrow around noonish um around eFap time and um probably another one after that the next day Uh, so you can go there and take a look at those while the big stuff's getting uh Taking care of getting over the sump the big stuff um I bet you there's at least one person in chat right now who has no idea But I put out a video the other day built tfa part four if you want to go see it How about it's long and you don't say anything it is long and I don't there is at least one person right now There is one person going what what? There probably would be statistically like someone subscribed them and waiting for it and didn't know it's out They're just like you you are joking. It's like no seriously reload the channel. You'll see it. It's right there I in line It was short. I hate you me tfa part five one no now they're all saying what I don't trust at all of you those people I think you're lying to me, uh, but yeah, go go check that out if you want to and Work has already begun now on just the next thing the thing you probably know what the next thing is going to be Since we're getting so close to april But you know who knows oh the boys the halloween video. Yes The halloween video April fools. Here's our halloween coverage Um, yeah, I guess that's about it. Uh, like I said, we'll we'll tackle today's super chalms first on the catch-up See on when wedness d for that I'll be on uh real bbc on tuesday Oh, man, I think that's that's that's all the things next week. You may very well see us Checking out bench pier is fucking batman review. Why not? I don't know I'm so excited and I just can't hide it. I could I could tell because you said it. I was like you can't hide that Um, but yeah anything else anything else before we run off Oh Bum seamen seamen seamen seamen. That's all I got. Bum seamen seamen. Can we can we do that together? Yeah, let's do it. Bum seamen seamen. Bum seamen. Bum seamen. Bum seamen. Bum seamen. Bum seamen. It's not a song already. It's an incredible I just started chanting that randomly one morning and then me met came up to me later that day and when I've had bum seamen seamen bum seamen seamen All day, I don't know how you did it Beautiful song There's a lot of a lot of power of music I think so I think so It's got a nice waltz to it Okay, so, uh, thank you all for hanging out with us. Thank you all for the kind donations and commentary I hope you had fun and we shall see you next time Yeah Love holds. Goodbye Bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum