 Welcome to Economics and Beyond. I'm Rob Johnson, president of the Institute for New Economic Thinking. I'm here today with Christine Pasorella. She's an innovative educator and the founder of what I think is a tremendous program called Kids for Coltrane. Referring, of course, to the great John Coltrane. Thanks for joining me today, Christine. Thank you so much for having me, Rob. I really appreciate this opportunity. So we're talking here on the 21st of June. The pandemic has run through society. Our economy is quite off balance. The horrific episodes are, you might call, accented by the phrase, I can't breathe, and George Floyd are kind of ripping at the roots of the fabric of our society. And I'm curious from your vantage point, and we'll talk about education and John Coltrane very intimately in this process. But what I do really want to hear from you from your own sense is, what do you see going on? What concerns you? What surprises you? And how, ultimately, over the course of this hour, we're going to create some light at the end of the tunnel based on your insights and experience. So how has the pandemic, how have events that are before us, how would I say, disturbed you and inspired you? Where are you at? Well, it's very heavy. It's heartbreaking. Watching George Floyd die the way he did, watching him murdered in the world watch, just took away the veil of any hypocrisy that our citizens were engaged in. They were doing something that is systemic, and it was done in a way that we can all see. We know that that wasn't an experience or a situation that's unique. We know that decades and decades of African American people, especially African American men, have been murdered that way. And so it was really hard to watch, but my heart goes out to the family and to George's soul. But in this moment, I think God brought change. And in that change, there's hope. And then where the hope is coming from and in a magnificent way is watching the young people of America say, truly say enough is enough. And I, and the hope also comes from, I think it's because our young people are very loving and very caring for the most part. And they don't hold these prejudices and his hate, and they don't want a life or a world that has all of this negativity in it. So I see goodness in this horrible moment and the pandemic itself. For me, being a very spiritual person, even though this horror in so many people dying, it's a wake up call for our society to ask for our society to look in the mirror. John Coltrane looked in the mirror for his own growth. So we as a globally, we look in the mirror and say, who do we want to be a human beings. And we have an opportunity to get better. I don't know if we'll have another opportunity to get better. Maybe this is the last opportunity. And it's such a drastic wake up call. So although it's heartbreaking, there's hope in it. And I was so sad. I have two adult children and they're staying with me throughout the pandemic and one morning I was so sad I just told them, I have to go to the cemetery and pray. And I just sat at John Coltrane's resting place to just pray, because I was in so much pain. And his spirit seems to always, I don't know what it is exactly. It's happening where it's bringing me hope and direction. And so I have to believe there's a light that there's good people on this planet that we could come together and make the change for our children and the future children that we don't know, you know, a future that we don't know, but we, we as a people must do better. I do have hope in my heart. One of the things that, and I want to get deeper into how you found inspiration in John Coltrane and it became at the core of your teaching. But I want to leap into a particular place in light of what you've just been saying. John Coltrane was very illuminating about the resistance to change and the nature of what a creative person must be like. Can you share with us a little bit of how he, what you might call, girded himself to be creative, to go beyond the resistance, to go to places where he was gentle and loving and also ferocious at the same time, unyielding. Well, I'm certain that all of us who, I won't even say our fans are who love John Coltrane here in his music that change. And when we examine his childhood, we go through the timeline of his life, we see how he grows, how he meets these challenges, these human challenges. He's quite losing so many of his elders at a short period of time and has to face a racist country on his own, but seems to do it in such a loving, gentle way. And he tells a story, he tells his heart, he expresses himself through his music, and that music in itself develops. He has his heroes, whether it's, you know, Charlie Parker, he's following the greats of his time. But at some point, collaborates with Miles, Miles Davis. But at some point, he takes off and creates. And what he creates is what's inside his soul. He creates his prayers, he creates his love. And because he's so magnificent, because he's so brilliant, because he was so disciplined. He has an ability to share his humanity. I think in ways we wish we all could. But it's very rare to have that kind of genius and that kind of love so John keeps pushing himself to change. And it's hard for him to but you can't do anything else but change. He can't stay still. He has to keep moving forward and risk. And that is such a unique thing to see so many people we know, find a place and they stay there, and they live their life in that one place of security. I mean, John could have done that certainly, but he doesn't. So his music is a gift, because it's so magnificent. But his example as a human being is also a blueprint, if you will, for those of us who are creative, who are innovative, who believe that we are here to make some kind of difference, whatever it is. And so, you know, by following John, I know personally, he gave me the courage to just keep moving forward and share that. Because I was blessed to teach for many years to share that with my students, so young. And they needed that to they connected to that immediately, which was amazing for me to see because it was so little. And then the older kids as well, I mean, I taught from pre K through a three. So, John has a philosophy, and part of that philosophy was changing and growing he insisted on that for himself. And he did it with such love and sweetness that I don't think I mean I feel like I know him. I'd say I never met anyone like him, but I never actually met him. But I met him through his music. He's at the highest level of humanity as far as I'm concerned. There are many dimensions of Coltrane's music that have moved me but as I was listening to you. I was recalling the release of kind of blue and the European tour where Miles Davis, because John had been on the record kind of move, they went on tour. And they were there's a concert at the Olympia Theatre in Paris, where you can feel every time the solo turns to John, he just takes off. And there are times when the audience you can hear booing, because they want to hear all the familiar licks from kind of blue. And I remember Quincy Troop writing in conjunction with Miles Davis, and they were kind of enjoying the fact that this guy had reached this kind of lift off point. And they knew it was the end of his time in Miles's band as he was creating giant steps and then my favorite things and so forth. But that track, and I remember there's a version of Bye Bye Blackbird on that record. And you can just feel him take off, just go almost like, like just frenetic. And like you said, he's a gentle man, he's not trying to, it's not like an ego contest. He's gone in deep, and this is what he's meant to create or produce in the reflection of his spirit. But I found the evolution of Coltrane, particularly in the realm of free jazz. And he's working with people like Pharaoh Sanders and Ornette Coleman and others to be quite inspiring because he was number one in the downbeat poll. He could be making in those days real good money, playing his hits and whatever kind of audience pleasing. But I think he wanted to take his audience on a journey. And he just never, he never stopped creating. I think that's really true. And I am certain that as he died so young as he got older, as he moved on in his life. I'm sure being surrounded by such creative musicians, or he put himself in a position where he was surrounded by such creative musicians had to be very uplifting for him as well. That was beautiful to see that he had, he knew, and I think it's a lesson for all of us, you know, to surround yourself with people who could push you who are like minded but are also have something new to offer you. And not be competitive to bring the best of people around you so you could grow and challenge each other. It's kind of like, it's kind of like a tough love in a way that it's unsettling. But you have faith that it's there to help you grow faster. And it's a, it's a beautiful thing. And to see it done musically is such a gift for all of us. So let's now, where did you get what you might call blessed with the inspiration of John Coltrane? What is that process? How did that come to fruition that led you on the path that we'll explore in the next 45 minutes to an hour? Wow. I'll tell you, I am incredibly blessed and I don't know about ever understand how John Coltrane came into my life. The way he did, but I believe God sent John Coltrane to me through my prayers, even though I didn't even know what I was praying for. I was praying for help. I was praying for love. I was praying for support. I was praying for understanding. And I'll go back to briefly when I was a little girl, I came from a loving family, but a family in which girls did not have equal rights. And ever since I can remember my earliest memory I was being told, you'll never get what your brother gets and all this. And my parents are proud of me, but no matter what I did, I was quote unquote just a girl. And so I was born in 1957. And that was actually the year, you know, John Coltrane had a spiritual awakening. So I love that I learned that it was in 1957 because that meant something to me. And it was disheartening to me, but I never gave up. I worked hard. I was very studious. And always sort of the best in my class. Very quiet, but very bright. I had confidence. My father gave me confidence, but no matter what I did, I couldn't, I wasn't a boy. And so I learned early on that being judged by what you look like is a negative thing. So young. And so I just school was my salvation. And at 14 years old a traumatic thing happened to me. I write about it in the last day called the story of my two cousins and my cousin Frankie passed away early was only 18 from the effects of heroin. And it devastated me was very close to me like a brother. And then I had another cousin who's a phenomenal that's being john tutorial, who's brilliant and fantastic and I analyzed in my life as I would move forward. How did we lose Frankie. And what made john just soar. And I have to say they're both deeply love for sure. But with john I noticed something in his mother's love. She locked eyes with her son in a way that made him know that he could do whatever he wanted. And to me that it wasn't that she praised him so much or anything like that. She just believed in him. And she was there for him. And I remember talking to her and she was just the kindest woman, very supportive of teachers and education. But what john said to me I had interviewed him for an article I did and he said but she wasn't over the top. She just said, if you had an idea, she would say go for it. And there was something in that. There's something in that that every child should have parents who believe in their uniqueness, and every, and as a teacher, I'm with my students for hours and hours a day. And if you have a teacher that doesn't have that same belief, and they're student. There's not only a missed opportunity, it's a tragedy and a crime, if teachers don't believe in their students in that way. So that's what I was trying to bring into my classrooms that that love that belief that creativity, a home away from home if you will. I did that I went to Brooklyn College at first got a degree in economics worked on in the Wall Street area for Peter jungle Andrews, who's a Greek shipping tycoon my father was very proud of me. And I, and I was successful, but I said to my father one day, I'm leaving to teach. And he was very disappointed in me. And I think that was my first rebellion. And I taught in Catholic school because you didn't need a license back then, and taught science and kindergarten all different subjects. And my first day teaching, I explained to the students what class would be like. And my second child and never forget raised her hand and said, you must be new, because school wasn't like this. But I, I wasn't trained, I didn't I didn't come from a school that said teachers do this, I, I was free to create and they did that. And eventually I got my licenses I went to a Delphi at my master's went to. I love you, CW post and got my degree in. School district administration my principles items my superintendent so that stuff. And I had a great mentor to Delphi who also taught me that I use wonderful project learning environments were good. And we flourished. I always used art in my classroom examination of great art in my classroom as a liaison to the Metropolitan Museum of Art for my school had a wonderful principle, don't mind garden who pushed me in that direction was fantastic. And the music flowed and all that ends. At one point in the early 2000s. I started to use the music of John Coltrane. I started to listen to Coltrane myself I was in a major car accident on the liu in New York. Gentleman made a U turn on the liu and came in the wrong direction. My life flashed before my eyes. I changed my life. After that, got a divorce. We went through the process of divorce and was wondering about the meaning of life. It was around that time that John Coltrane's music appeared in my life. And I started to listen to it. First I went to the library and it just took every CD out. I bought my own collection. And I started to bring my music to the students. And at this point, I had a first grade class shared Coltrane with them. And I remember friends said that's a little complex for little kids. But I put on the album, the best of John Coltrane, which is filled with wonderful music children can relate to. And magic appeared. Just appeared. There was a soothing beauty in John's music that the children related to and they absolutely adored. And second year, parents asked to have me again as a teacher. So they looped me. And we were able to develop the Kids for Coltrane program. I wondered as I got to know John's music. What is going on in America with the, I have a lot of musician friends and they are of course only John, but the school teachers didn't know who John was and so on. And this was like 2006. What was going on in our country, if one of the most magnificent musicians to ever have walked the earth is not known by every American citizen. So I set out to raise his profile in America. I know that sounds. I don't know what it sounds like, but it was important to me to do that. A lot of people from the jazz at Lincoln Center educational program helped me out. A lot of people jazz foundation of America helped me out a lot of people got involved in the kids for Coltrane. So we decided to do a program, another program was decided to do a show to raise money. The children and I because I love doing productions with the children play singing all of that. So we decided to do our program and raise money for the we heard there was a home on Long Island that was being turned into a museum. I got in touch with the founder of that project, Steve Felgoni, and he came with his board and they watched our show and I think we raised $1,500 or $2,000 and we donated it to them. We were playing through the process. And the children and I vowed one day when the museum comes to pass. When it's here when it's this project comes together with just the working on, we will all meet one day at the museum and now I'm part of that. I'm part of that care. So that's an interesting side note. But so, yeah, that was one of the things that I was like, I didn't understand how this great man wasn't known by everyone. And to be told, I wondered if it didn't have something to do with racism in our country. So I pushed and I pushed with a curriculum was magnificent. I think I'm a great teacher. And but by the time the Bloomberg administration came in. There was a shift in the way teachers could teach. And there was a push back the administration tried to stop my work. And this is where some of these mentors come in. Nat Hentoff, before I get into that, Nat Hentoff heard about the production the children I was doing. And Monday I get a phone call. And Nat Hentoff on the phone. I'll never forget. He said this is Nat Hentoff from Wall Street Journal. We had a deep conversation. And he became my mentor until the day he died. And he was John Coltrane's friend. So he helped me a lot. He warned me he taught me he was amazing. One day when I was disheartened by the system changing, when I was being told by administration not to bring Coltrane in my posters were ripped down and I blues posters and jazz posters up they were literally ripped down by the administration. My daughter who's a feminist wonderful brilliant young woman took me to an event where Anita Hill was speaking. And I said a few words to Anita Hill. And one of them was Coltrane. And she looked up at me she was signing books. And she locked eyes with me and she said, don't you stop. I don't know how to continue because administration is trying to stop the work. And so I, I think it was the next day I went into the principal and I said, I want to do an after school program. And the principal said no. Yeah, there's no money. And I said to her I don't need money. I just for a few years after that I did this beautiful after school program. Wendy oxenhorn and the jazz foundation of America sent jazz musicians into my classroom live music was would be flowing out of my classroom. It was just unbelievable. I just kept finding a way and the children would sign up for the after school program and I just whatever way I could bring Coltrane into the classroom I did, because I saw that his music his spirit his love had this profound effect on them and that and I want to say, you know I called it kids for Coltrane that and I called it kids for Coltrane. But there was a reason I didn't call it Coltrane for kids. I couldn't. But it was these children were saying the youth, they were saying, we want John Coltrane, we want this type of love. We're insisting on Coltrane. It's the kids who are pulling John Coltrane close to them. And it was a magnificent thing and I don't think it's that complex because all I'm offering is a loving environment. Using whatever a teacher thinks is beautiful in my case, it was John Coltrane. You know he personally means so much to me. I mean I have to say, at this point in my life. He dedicated my life to John Coltrane. My children will tell you that. Let's talk a little bit about how the children react and at what ages. Do you start to introduce John Coltrane. And at the different what my call phases in education. How does their attachment to his spirit evolve. Well, it's interesting because I did it I did the program in different ways I even had something called the jazz breakfast cafe the children come in and have breakfast jazz music it was just extraordinary. But it started with children who was six years old and analyzing music like Central Park West or Naima. It's not that complex beautiful music but they could relate to it they were able to see the story in the music and talk about it related to their own lives. This is really vital that when I used to do this thing when kids would come in I call it clear the deck, they would just walk in and start writing. No pressure, you know, they write, and they were able to share if they wanted to. And it was just sort of making them know that they mattered I cared about their life. And so we would connect to john stories of john's music songs and there were stories in those songs. And they absolutely love that I remember one little girl was on the computer just doing research on his life. She was seven to just love doing the research in which she would come and we would have these centers I would let you know the children would, they would do their research they would go play chess different things during the day. And she just so young invested her energy and learning more and more about who this man was not to tell you, many years later when I was doing another form of the program before I left. Before the Bloomberg administration. Just drain me from the attacks, you know, they were just trying to stop the work and every which way but Tuesday but I remember I was doing a program was teaching 500 kids a week of music literacy program. And a little boy who was so thrilled to be in my class. You heard about me, you know my work was in the Wall Street Journal was in New York Times. So there was like a little bit of a buzz about me so when the kids got into my my class. They're excited. And this was now a music program. It wasn't my regular class they gave me a cluster class at this point. And a little boy with the kids in kindergarten. He went into the music and I held up a picture was a laughing American boy. And he just looked at me and said, You mean he's black like me. And there's, there's something very powerful in that moment for all of us for all for educators for this. There's something there that we have to explore. And I have my opinion about how we could change the system. Touch this moment from that from so many experiences. But yeah, there were many people that came into my life when I needed them, including Dr Cornell West. Yes, he's been a guest on this podcast. He's a good friend of mine and how I say, I think he is might be the king of lateral pattern recognition across all kinds of artistic social science theological poetic realms. He's just brilliant. Just brilliant. He is a gift. He's a gift to humanity in my opinion. I consider him one of my dearest friends. And briefly I could tell you that it was one day I came home from work is heartened by what was going on in the in the school system under the Bloomberg administration. Joe Klein administration. He was a chancellor where they were changing teaching in a way that was shocking to me. And I signed up for a lecture by Dr Cornell West called moral courage. I have to be honest, I didn't know too much about Dr West at the time. My son told me about his work actually. So I signed up I went over to think it was at NYU he was speaking. And I just heard this magnificent person talk about life. Try again, fail again, fail better all these. All this energy came from this meeting. But on my way there. I knew I was sent. I can't tell you what it is. I knew I had to be there I didn't know why. And all of a sudden, for no West talks about his love for John Coltrane, which I had no idea. I fell off my chair. So my daughter lived. She was at going to Columbia at the time she was on the Upper West Side so I was leaving the building, and it was over and I was like, sort of stunned. That Dr West mentioned Coltrane that was on my way out to go to go to my daughters, and someone said at NYU, you know they're serving coffee in the ballroom. So I, you know, as tired as I'm going to get caught. And then Dr West came in, passed me by. Again, I'm shy so I get something pushed me to go over to say hi. I wish he wasn't surrounded by a bunch of people chatting. As you know, people see Cornell and they're all thrilled. So he, I saw his shoulders lift and he turned and looked at me. And later on he said to me, I felt you before I saw you. And he pulled me into the circle. And I mentioned when my daughter said just to an elevator speech mom just say. So I said, John Coltrane physical. And he pulled me and he said, I'm going to help you. And the next day he called. And the rest is history, he became my mentor, my friend in educated me in ways I can. I couldn't have learned from anybody else. So that's one of the miracles. And I introduced Cornell to Nat Hentoff one day. So that was thrilling for me. Wow. Now, as I recall, Nat Hentoff was a friend of Malcolm X. Yes. And I know that Cornell absolutely reveres Malcolm X. And Cornell, I mentioned his gifts of lateral pattern integration and recognition. He fuses arts with politics and culture, as well as any human being I've ever encountered. And I'm curious when, what was the chemistry when Nat Hentoff met Cornell West? Well, it was magnificent. It was an out of body experience for me. I was, there was a documentary. I forgot the name of it. I apologize about Nat. Oh, I know what I, yeah, I do. The pleasure of being out of step. That's it. That's it. Yeah, I watched that recently. Yes. So that was a thank you. And so we went to the premier, and Nat didn't know I was bringing Cornell West, right. And so that didn't even know I was there. I just, I think I asked a question. And then, and that was in the front, we were toward the back. And he said, Oh, Miss Pessarels here, you know, Christine Pessarels here. And he said, and I was so proud that he said this in front of Dr. West. He said, her work could change education as we know it. I'm so proud that Dr. West heard that. And after the film was over, we went down and I was just thrilled, but it was interesting. Because at that point it didn't matter that I was there at all. Nat's son was like, Oh my God, Cornell West is here. And that was just so thrilled to see Dr. West and his son, that son was thrilled. But he really, Nat Huntoff really admired Cornell, and rightfully so. And, and as you could imagine, to have two mentors believe in me through this work is is bigger, it's bigger than me as a person. It's not just, it's not just my life. It's my purpose. It just makes me realize that I'm on the right track and to keep, as Coltrane did, keep changing, keep going, keep going forward, have that courage, bring in the right people to work with you, and also let go of the people who don't. Eventually in 2014 and the 2014 with a conversation with Cornell West. I agreed with him that it was time for me to retire early from the system if I was ever going to bring this to the next level. Let's let's talk about in your endeavor, you have this circle of people who are very illustrious and creative and supportive. Let's go into the plumbing of education systems that have been at some level privatized at some level, kind of rigid, rigidified, if you will, in lots of testing lots of monitoring lots of ranking and controls, rather than touching the heart and drawing inspiration like you've been sharing with me in this conversation. What kind of resistances did you experience? Even when people in the Wall Street Journal of New York Times are lauding this wonderful creation called Kids with Coltrane, and when in a world where what you might call overcoming the original sin of slavery after 400 years and all the animosity and the unconscious resistance to creating a loving community, almost like you're what the doctor ordered. Where did the resistance come from? How was it manifest? Well, I could tell you my experience and from that you could extrapolate what you will. But so I'll just tell you what happened. Around the time Bloomberg came in with Joe Klein, they created a program or a way of bringing principles into the system called the Leadership Academy. Now, if you recall, I said I have my superintendent's license and my principal's license. I have a professional diploma in that expertise, which took me about two and a half years at CW Post. And around the same period of time Bloomberg comes in with Joe Klein and they create this thing called the Leadership Academy. Well, I didn't understand at the time what was happening. I did research after. So what they did was they made a way that they could handpick people to become principles. They wouldn't have to go through the educational programs like I did. They would just have to go through the Bloomberg Klein program. They would find these people, principle jobs, and those principles came in. One of them was mine. And around the time I started to do Coltrane, just a little bit after, a little bit after. I was already in the Wall Street Journal New York Times. And so this new principle comes in very little experience as a teacher. I don't think any experience is a principle except shadowing a principle. And she started to stop my work every which way she could. And it took me a while to realize, I mean, it's probably people say to me it was probably more than one reason that a creative teacher is stopped. And then started to make a connection to this rote way that Bloomberg and Klein wanted education to be this way to numbering children and testing, testing, testing. It was just heartbreaking. I mean, I could give you an example we were supposed to do a program over at a jazzling and center in the education room was all set up that was coming. And Barry Mayo, who is the radio executive who is also incredibly supportive and I met him also in a very magnificent way through sort of spiritual similar to Cornell where when I needed someone to believe in the work. I was kind of trained when I was reading a book about John Coltrane, unbeknownst to me he was this huge radio executive who believed in me and told me to keep going. So he was coming I had tough was coming and was just beautiful. And right before, there was a few weeks before I get a call or an email, you can't you, you can't do that you, your students cannot go to jazz at Lincoln Center and perform. And I was shocking to me. I reached out to the superintendent at the time, Anita Saunders, and she said, Oh, I have to do a legal legal ramifications. We need a year in advance to let you go to jazzling and send it just sounds absurd to me, but they were my bosses and that was that at the very end of my career I was doing a program over in the city. And I still have a career but not in the city I left. I was doing a show called New York loves and we were going to invite Cornel West and Harry Belafonte, which is beautiful the kids were singing amazing songs. The bells of New York City it was just lovely. And I got an email that said, You cannot do this show. Cornel West came to my school to talk to my students a Socratic round table discussion it was beautiful. The principal barely gave him attention or recognition or anything. So, I don't know the answer but I know that this that administration wanted the work stopped. But I kept going on because it was just so magnificent and the parents love that the kids loved it. And then, but then eventually, I had enough, and I knew that I couldn't grow it anymore. That's when I made a decision to leave. And hopefully, hopefully bring the work to other districts throughout America. Nat Hentoff believes in it Cornel West believes in it. Many people believe in my students who I'm still in touch with believing it. So I'm hoping to find a way to bring this curriculum that I developed to children all over America. And who knows maybe all over the world. Well, that how would I say that brings us back to the the current challenge. The which I'm going to use a kind of shallow metaphor but like the operating system that is loaded into the American mind. Tolerates racism, a criminal justice system, a way of discriminating a way of neglecting. That is 100,000 miles away from the kind of love that John Coltrane's work encourages or represents or infuses into you. I would I would call it what he does, the vaccination of the heart. It's fortifying the heart and your teaching is a vaccination of the heart and you're putting this into these young spirits. And I know from talking to you that your alumni from this kids for Coltrane program go through life and reach back to you and want to help and bear witness and. And so I can feel the energy. And I can see the awkwardness now. I have daughters just about in the fall will be in third and sixth grade. So they come just out of second and fifth. And I see their school grappling with how do we explain this craziness and this racism and how to insulate the children a little bit from how horrific it is. And, you know, you were talking about this crisis creates like change and opportunity. And the young people have to embrace it and they seem to be doing so. But your vaccine is what the doctor ordered right now to transform young and old to get to the place where we leave this shameful hideous tolerance of inhumanity behind us. And in the kind of secular stem discipline. Technocratic if you will. Notion of what education is it's like tools for performing in a capitalist system. And those tools those tools are helpful you you studied them yourself I heard you talking earlier. But but it's this moral compass. It's this infusion of awareness of right and wrong and balance that can't I'm not talking about five children learning this I'm talking about 40 years from now 150 million people thinking differently. That's right. And how do we how do we. That's why I was asking you about the resistances because I'm trying to understand. Given the magic potion that you've developed. How we can disseminate it. So that it what it widely inhabits the heart. Of the future. American people. So you mentioned Malcolm X. Yes, beautiful thing is now schools are mentioning Malcolm X. There's a time when you couldn't mention Malcolm X I of course was I remember I even had Dr King's poster I'm in front of my room always making a connection to Martin and Coltrane and remember teacher came into my room and said, you know the principal is not going to like this it's not black history month you should take that down. The ignorance in the building was unbelievable and it's not I'm not trying to be negative toward my colleagues, but it was literally ignorance. And so we have to. I mean, some of it was racism, I'm sure, but some of it was ignorance and so we have to reeducate the teachers will bring these beautiful programs to teachers. And let me say this one of the things I did was I had a think tank for a while called the illumination cafe where having gone to Harvard for six professional development opportunities to meet how a gardener and the project zero team Oh, well, things that they do at Harvard and I paid for that myself and all of this because I wanted to keep developing myself. I was so impressed and inspired that I created a think tank in my classroom and so I invited my colleagues and some of the my the most beautiful colleagues in my building would come to my classroom for lunch. And first I bought the lunch, then, then eventually we all, you know, brought lunch together by for coffee whatever I could do to get them into the room but what what it was was respect for each other. It was in top down. It was a teacher respecting a teacher having a conversation I would just present an article or something I learned from Harvard, and then we would just have this beautiful. It was an enlightening conversation about what we wanted for our kids it was really wonderful lunch. And so I use it as a model to have an illumination cafe, sort of professional development to the school systems throughout America, where teachers are respected for their brilliance. Educated teachers teachers have to get master's degrees and all this but then there's this top down squashing of their intellect that has to stop. And so that's a piece of it, respecting teachers in a way where they're able to bring their creativity to the to into the process. And then, you know, who do we hire, make sure, make sure just even what we're saying with the police force right, we want to make sure we don't hire racist teachers and administrators. And we straight with you. You know, Malcolm X. I'm reading a quote here is an education is our passport to the future for tomorrow belongs to the people, you prepare for it today. Yes. But Baldwin would agree that who you put in front of the classroom is vital who administrators are. This is vital. And so I believe I ran into people for a variety of reasons. I had my opinion about it that they wanted the work stopped. And part of my, my feeling was that I was honoring a great African American genius, and my work was named for him. So, I put it out there. People could tell me what why would, why would the system want that stopped. And so, I think that kids for Coltrane is very transformative. And the way I developed the curriculum wasn't, we don't just learn, I don't think just but learning about Coltrane is huge. But it's also helping children develop their thinking skills through Coltrane through great art. We even had law classes we do mock trials where the children would do cases we make up these cute little, the case of the missing skateboard or whatever and the kids would have to figure it out and think through a process. So I taught for understanding so that what they could take that with them. Like you're saying a vaccination for the heart but it also helped the children think for themselves and question and collaborate and believe in themselves and their uniqueness. A lot of what I did was rooted in the work, which I fell in love with Dr. Haber Gardner, multi theory of multiple intelligences. I thought that was extraordinary, extraordinary work. And again, to me, the answer is here in front of us. The question is, who's stopping it. You know, I also studied the work of Peter Sangay systems thinking and I was, I loved his work. He talks about personal mastery, mental models, shared vision, team learning. Again, makes so much sense in a school. But that's not top down. That's sharing America with the teachers and the students and the parents. The answer seems clear to me. But the problem is, there's a system that's stopping it, you know, raised to the top and charter schools and not investing in public education. I'm a huge, huge fan of Diane Ravich. She gives a fax. Her latest book, I think it's called a slang Goliath. She talks about how Bloomberg and Gates are trying to take over education, but they're not educators. So, this is a problem. And I think the kids for Coltrane curriculum can really make a difference if implemented in certain school districts, I think it'll grow and grow. I saw it happen, you know, I witnessed it. And I just think I'm a vessel. I think God is working through me to get the work done with Coltrane genius all around me. Yes. That's how I feel. Well, let me kind of bring things to a head here because I think you've covered a lot of ground and I'm sure we'll do other episodes together. But your mentor, Nate Hendoff, did write for the Wall Street Journal. And at the end of that article, he says, he quotes John Coltrane. When you're playing with someone who is really something to say, even though they may otherwise be quite different in style, there's one thing that remains constant. And that is the tension of the experience, that electricity, that kind of feeling that is a kind of lift kind of feeling. No matter where it happens, you know when that feeling comes upon you and it makes you feel happy. He then goes on to say that kind of happiness can lift listeners to listeners of any age, including second graders. That's right. I heard you bring one of my favorite thinkers. James Baldwin into the conversation. And just as how would I say that you talked about a life of miracles. I really wanted to close with a quote from him about people who go inside themselves and they discover secrets and what they do with them. And here's what Baldwin says, perhaps such secrets, the secrets of everyone were only expressed when the person laboriously dragged them into the light of the world, imposed them on the world and made them a part of the world's experience. Without this effort, the secret place was merely a dungeon in which the person perished. Without this effort, indeed the entire world would be an uninhabitable darkness. Christine, your work is fighting that darkness. Your work is bringing that uplift that Nate Hentoff, your mentor, underscored in the conclusion of his writing about your program. And you're not content just to know and feel John Coltrane. You're using him to light up the hearts and the love and the consciousness of an entire society. I couldn't be more admiring of your work and of your purpose. And I want to thank you for being here today and joining me and sharing with the Inet audience something that's far, far beyond economics, which is where your degree started. And that gives me hope that there's great possibility for us all in following your example. I thank you so much and I'm so incredibly grateful for this opportunity to share. Thank you. Well, I'm very grateful that you chose us as a place in which to share. And I hope after a few months pass that we can reconvene. I'm sure we'll be working on projects together. Whether in New York or Detroit or electronic versions of how you teach teachers to teach kids for Coltrane or just dissemination. More broadly, now that we're all in these electronic platforms, I see so many exciting possibilities for you to realize that broader vaccination of the heart that you described to me today. Thank you again and we'll see you soon. Thank you. Bye bye. And check out more from the Institute for New Economic Thinking at InetEconomics.org.