 Over the past few days many parts of North India have experienced quite severe rains and many states have seen a massive amount of flooding. The visuals have been quite stunning, even apocalyptic in many ways. We have seen from states like Himachal Pradesh, you know, a huge amount of debris flowing into cities, people facing all kinds of risks. There have been reports of death, many families going missing, administrations having to work a lot to find out the whereabouts of these people. But the key question like in many of these instances has been that is this just a natural disaster? Is it just the result of rains? Or is it also about how we see development, how we sort of delude our cities, our villages, our environment, how do we treat our environment? To talk more about this, we have with us Tikindar Singh Panwar, who is the former deputy mayor of Shimla. Tikindar, thank you so much for speaking to us. Thank you. So you just come down from Shimla to Delhi and so maybe could you first take us through really what is the scope of the damage, especially in Himachal Pradesh? When you ask scope, I mean, I think the damage has been called phenomenal. And if you ask me, the state government has estimated that the loss could be somewhere around 14,000 crores, huge loss. And as you rightly pointed out, I think in my lifetime, I haven't seen such a vast damage taking place across the state. Not a single district has been spared. And, you know, we've seen gory pictures, videos where cars were like dancing in the in the river streams. And, you know, the entire mud river flowing through a village in Thunag in Mandi district that happens to be the home place of our former chief minister, the previous chief minister, Mr. Jairam Thakur. Still the two major roads on the national highways also to say I mean the roads that connect to our borders with China are still not been restored. The Shimla Chandigarh one, which apparently it feels is going to take weeks together if not months to allow, you know, even the minimal passage to pass through. Likewise, the Shimla, the Chandigarh Manali highway is literally washed away. So, yeah, it's the damage has been like very vast, very, very colossal and the rise of the water in the river has been like unprecedented, we've witnessed. And I think today we are witnessing in Yamuna, I mean, Delhi, where I'm here today. The water has already reached ITO. It has reached certain parts of the civil lines. I'm told that even the ISBT, Kashmiri Gate is literally inundated now. So, you know, you can just imagine, I mean, just look at the draw the canvas. I'm right from the Himalayas to the to this place. I mean, it's been really, very vast. Right. So, again, in this context, of course, like I said, the rains are, of course, one aspect of it. But the larger question always in such events take place and we have seen many incidents of urban flooding, which you'll get to. But specifically focusing on the Himalayas is really the question of our model of development and what has changed over the past many decades that seems to sort of lead to these kind of disasters where it seems like there's definitely are some issues in how we are sort of conceived planning, how we are sort of thought of development, how our understanding of dealing with forests and nature is. So, how really do you think what are the underlying factors that have possibly led to the situation getting worse? Well, before I think I come to the underlying factors, definitely it's a climate change. You know, I mean, we should not miss that point. And I don't have to. I mean, the scientists are really screaming at us through the IPCC reports, through the bohingrup one, two and three. And the recent ones, what the the meteorological department explained, you know, the rise in temperatures in the ocean, the oceanic rise, and of course, the mix of our south-westerly monsoon with the north-northwestern disturbances. So, there has been a fairly large precipitation, but that was always there if you ask me. Not always, but most of the time, because I remember in my school days, seven days, eight days, we've seen continuous rainfall, okay? But the damage has never been like this. So, now, I think it's more, apart from the nature's fury, it's more the human-induced catastrophe, I would point out. So, it's, and when I say human-induced, it's not all human beings, but you know, the kind of developmental trajectories we have advanced, particularly in the two states, that's Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh. Now, if you see the genesis of this is, Himachal is quite a different state, because here we are after Kerala in the Human Development Index, and there was a roadmap that was designed by a first chief minister, which was kind of abruptly ended post-90s. And, you know, the center asked the states, and that's later when Uttarakhand also came into being, that we are not the ones, you know, crying mothers, okay, and you be like crying babies, you have to manage your own resources. So, the impetuousness of generating these resources, especially in the Himalayan states, which were not carved out because of financial capacities, or, you know, but they were precisely because of some linguistic basis, or some of the mountain aspirations of the mountain people. That's how these states were carved out. So, financial capacities, financial strength was not ever their evolutionary status or, you know, even their capacities for that matter. So, there was this strong stimulus, strong catalyst that was there from the center, but that, as I said, abruptly 100 post-90s, we have the FRBMs and all. Why I'm bringing this, because they said, look, you have to generate your resources. Now, if you ask me, I come from a mountain state of Himachal Pradesh, if you ask me, how do I generate my resources? Either I sell or squeeze my labor, that's my human capacity, or I squeeze and sell my nature. So, you know, so there's a limit to sell your labor, I mean, they did, you know, instead of regularizing and scrapping the posts, more outsourced and all this stuff, not to go into those details, because that's not right now appropriate. The point is, so I start selling my nature. How do I sell my nature? I sell my nature by constructing n number of hydropower dams. And that's the shift that we find even in the World Bank understanding. If you see the World Bank documents post-2005, prior to 2005, the World Bank was against the construction of mega hydropower dams. But post-2005, they started funding large hydropower dams, Satlujal, Vitham Nanatvajakari Power Corporation, and the latest one, we have the subsidence that was taking place in Joshimath. So, once I start selling nature, hydropower is my potential. I start selling hydropower. Tourism is my potential. I start selling tourism. How do I sell tourism? Not just by constructing few hotels, but, you know, allowing large influx of the people. People can't come, so we start widening the roads. And there is the sympathies that comes from the center, the NHI interweaves, because of other reasons also they say it's a strategic location for us, so therefore we have to widen the roads. Believe me, I mean, the loss that has happened in Himachal Pradesh, I'm not sure about Uttarakhand, is precisely in these two roads, the roads that are subject to massive widening. That's the first part, not to go into further details. The second part is, and of course there are losses at other places also, but the impetus is this, so there's this relationship we should not forget about. And the second is, how do we construct a road in the Himalayas? Himalayas are the youngest range of mountains. We can't copy the Switzerland model where we have a different range of mountains, which are fairly strong, fairly older than the Himalayas. And most of the widening is taking place, which is kind of a very loose strata. You know, it was, I mean, there's no rock even, okay? And so in the mountains there is a practice that you, if you have to cut a mountain, the mountain has to be cut in slopes. So you cut mountains in what we call in terrace form, so that there is no, I mean, the loss is minimal. But if you see the two highways, the Chandigarh Manali and Chandigarh Shimla or beyond, the slit is vertical. It's a sheer vertical slit because that's how the private companies, the nexus between National Highway Authority of India, and they have allowed this. And you see the road has been completely washed away. Mark my words, it's not just this time, but it is going to be a perpetual problem for another few decades to come till the time they are able to restore. And you just visit and you'll find, I mean, every day you, even when it's not raining, you find stones coming down, boulders. And there are two major slips that has happened in that Chandigarh Shimla road. And I think in one portion the road has been completely washed away. So that's the first part. The second part is because of this change dynamics in the Himalayan economy, that no more produces cereals. And you know, there has been a dramatic shift in the production of horticulture crops like apples, tomatoes, off-season vegetables and all that stuff. So how do I transport it? There is no ropeways, so I need the road to reach my village. So there has been massive kind of construction of roads that have taken place. Some of the roads under the famous Pradhanwantri, Raminsadakyojna, I can comment these are better roads because there is a formula how these roads are constructed. But the roads that are constructed by the JCB, the new excavator, so it enters the mountains and just creates that road. So the road is functional for a strong utility vehicle, but the moment it rains the road withers away. And it is this debris that enters finally, where would the debris go? The debris enters the river system and the entire ecosystem and that's why you find the color, the sheer color. We've seen rains, but we've never seen a muddy water. It's completely muddy. So where is it coming from? It's massive kind of intervention or you know, engagement with nature, with the newer forms of development, which is like catastrophic. And we can easily witness the way things are happening. And the third thing is I think also the way we are urbanizing. I think, yeah. And also there is projects like the Char Dham project for instance, which seem to... I didn't jump to Uttarakhand, but yeah, Char Dham is another reason. And this Char Dham is never going to be the Dham. Mark my words, because every year when there'll be rains, you can't stop the rains and why should we stop the rains? They are part of our evolutionary process. And we can't even do that. So people say it's an unplanned disaster. I say it's a planned disaster. It's a planned attack on the mountains. It's a planned devastation of the Himalayas. And the Himalayas are answering back. It's as simple as that. Absolutely. I think in this context also, you mentioned the tomato product, tomato produce and say for instance apple farmers and all that. And I guess this is also taking a very heavy toll on the employment and livelihoods of people as well. Mark my words. The two major roads, if you see the Shimla Chandigarh highway, if I'm not wrong, I think 70% of the apple produce is transported through this road. Are apples coming from Kottkhai, Kottgarh, Rodu, Rampur, Kinnar, Kumarsan, these are the apple bowels of Himachal Pradesh. It's completely gone. It will not be restored in another few weeks, which means an apple is a perishable produce. What do you do? So you can imagine what is going to happen. Likewise, the apples coming from Manali, Kullu and even areas of Mandi are completely gone. So you know, all this is being done for the larger context of development for the people. But then we find the same people, same development gets badly hit. And not to mention the loss of lives. I mean, not to miss the point that there's massive loss of lives that have taken place. And just yesterday, I saw the chief minister saying, chief minister of Himachal Pradesh, I think there are more than 30,000 people who are stranded and maybe half of them have been evacuated. But it's a complete disaster. So the kind of developmental trajectories, the poor states, I would say, the poor states who have no wish of theirs, in fact, than to just move on to this path, the impetus that comes from the center, that you ought to sell your nature. And they do not even have the capacity to say no to that, you know, because the push is so strong. And I can tell you, take for example, River Satluj, the moment it enters in India, so Khab, Shaso, Shaso, Jangi, Jangi, Thopan, Thopanpawari, then we have Shonthong Karcham, Kancham Vangtu, Natpajakri, Rampur, Luri, Koldam and Bhakradam. I mean, these projects have either been commissioned or there is a plan to commission them, which means the river will be completely conduated. There will be no water in the river. But the entire debris has been dumped along the riverbed. And when there's a flood, you know, the kind of frames that we have, the entire debris moves along with the river. So it's a complete catastrophe. And together, finally, just because often we end these discussions with this question, and I think it's a very important question that, you know, when we talk about this development model, a key aspect of it is that it's pitched as inevitable that this is the only way to go about it. But from your experience, how do you see, say, is there another sustainable as well as productive way to sort of go about it? I think the another sustainable way, I would not say what the way is. I would say what the process could be. The processes and people have started fighting back. You come to Kinore. Now, the Shantung Karcham project, they're not allowing even a single new hydro unit coming up. And the tribals have galvanized themselves and they have a very interesting slogan, I mean, which is like really resonating across the mountain communities is no means no. They said, we won't allow, we won't allow a single new unit of hydroelectricity to be generated because they've already lost villages. Natpa village is gone. Urni village is gone. I mean, what happened in Joshimath? We have already experienced that. Likewise, you've seen Sangla, how Sangla has been hit. So I think the alternative process should be that A, no two large dams. That's the first thing. B, there has to be complete veto with the people. I mean, and we had that provision in the Gram Sabha. If the Gram Sabha says no, you cannot construct a hydro power for that matter cement plant. So I think after all this old development, you can't expect, you know, a coal dam coming up in in Nahan, Sidmore district and getting watered for Delhi. And what fun is it? I mean, people lose there. So, you know, how can it be a win-win situation? I don't think there are easy ways and solutions. At the same time, I think we ought to, the Supreme Court is also saying, though I don't buy this Malthuson theory, but, you know, there has to be a debate on the carrying capacity of the mountains. So this whole bunch of mass tourism that we are having, similar as a population of 200,000, and we are getting some more than 5.5 million tourists. So it's not a sustainable model. And it's so that they come and they go back in the evening. I think what we require is more sustainable, more, which is like developing, you know, the entire ecosystem than tourists rushing in and rushing going back. So people have, the development model in that process has to be people-centric. And people-centric doesn't mean the government-centric, okay? The state governments chatter out a path and then they say, look, this is how we've taken because we've got the mandate, we've got elected, and that's how we can, I don't think that's the way how the development process has to take place. The second part is, I think we have to revisit the whole question of mountain ecology, particularly forests. Forests and water have a very strong relationship. After the nationalization of forests in 1980s, the entire building typologies have also surrounded around RCC, what we call the reinforced cement and concrete. Why shouldn't salvaged wood and timber be part of those building typologies? So, you know, the point is, when you have to build in the mountains, the mountain typologies have to be different, not akin to what you're planning in the plains. So that's, I think, another area which we have to look at. And I think thirdly, what is important is, how do we create those structures, the new governance models? And the governance models, take for example, now there's a loss. So there's a loss to the bus and there's a loss to human lives. A loss to the human life would be, of course, it can't be compensated, but there is an element of insurance, whether you have a life insurance corporation or there are the private corporation players that are going to pay. Likewise, for a bus, there's an insurance, but the asset that the village community or, you know, in the urban communities have is the small culvert, is the school that is gone or the dispensary that is gone. I think new forms of governance have to be visualized or maybe debated, where these assets can also be incorporated in this whole bunch of maybe insurance or whatever model we call it. But, you know, you ask me, I mean, what is the work of an MLA in Himachal Pradesh? I'm not sure about Uttarakhand, but predominantly of most of the MLAs in the mountain region, the first task of the MLA is transfers, ensuring the people doesn't move out or to come in. And the second one is writing DOs, what you call the demiofficial letters to the Chief Minister, demanding a grant for loss to the road, loss to the culvert. Why cannot the governance model be a little altered? Why should the MLA be interested about culvert? Why shouldn't the village community be empowered for, you know, converting them into custodians? I think they could be held a lot of transformations that can take place, because then the ownership will come from the communities. I think this needs to be altered. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Tikindar for, I think, giving us the larger picture, not only about this horrific disaster, but also I think the questions we need to address as a country as a whole. And of course, we didn't get time to go into the floods that are taking place in the cities, the mega cities, for instance, which is an entirely different can of worms, so to speak. But thank you so much. Thank you. And that's all we have time for today. As we see, this is not just a natural disaster. It's also, as Tikindar said, a plant disaster in some senses. And the questions that arise are really of what kind of development model we need to have in India, in the urban spaces, in the Himalayas, across the country in various ways. We'll be covering similar issues in future videos and stories in NewsClick. So go to our website, check out our social media channels and keep watching.