 we need to have a kinder world, a more thoughtful world, and where people do ask them the question, you know, what effect am I having on others and the planet? The SDGs provide a really good framework for going in that direction because it's very specific. The golden rule is the motivational principle, but the specifics are in the SDGs. So I think, yeah, great worlds would be that the SDGs have been satisfied. Kim Pullman is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Kim is the co-founder and chair of Reboot the Future. Kim is also an international public speaker, a polymath, and a citizen of the world. She has been an environmentalist for many decades, has taught music, performs as a cellist in chamber groups and orchestras, has initiated research on expats and ran a community-based website for the expat community in Geneva. Kim is a vice chair of a charity dedicated to literacy for the blind and visually impaired children of East Africa. She is an avid advocate of the golden rule. Treat others and the planet as you wish to be treated, which is how she got to co-author the first book, Imaginal Cells, Visions of Transformation and Established Reboot the Future Foundation. The imaginal cell is really a metaphor. It's powerful and helps people to make sense of the chaos that we live in. The beautiful order comes because the imaginal cells emit a common frequency to find each other and collaborate while the caterpillar is breaking down or out. That frequency represents the golden rule metaphor. If more people who live it, the better off we will all be. I am so honored and blessed to have Kim here on the show today. She doesn't know what a virtual mentor she is to me and an example, shining example. Her book, Imaginal Cells, is one of my favorite. I've read it a bunch of times. Matter of fact, I have a signed copy here from her because she's given away so many signs, so many. She probably doesn't even remember, but I want her to know. Before we get over to her, and my listeners as well, is really in this book, there are so many other co-authors and contributors to the imaginal cell. A few of them are really vital for me. I was one of the first 50 people trained by Al Gore in his ranch in Carthage, Tennessee. Al Gore, of course, is in the book. He's a mentor of mine and a shining example to the world. Another mentor of mine is William McDonough, a sustainable architect, a wonderful man as well, who actually coached me and mentored me on my first TED Talks and kind of gave me the wisdom and helped me reduce my fear to speak in public. He's also the architect on one of my projects North of Humberg for the Aloha's Eco Center. And then I was just recently, well, actually not recently, last year in a film, a documentary called Now with Greta Thunberg, but another person, Mohamed Yunus, that is also in the book. And so there is a star lineup of wonderful people in the book. Professor Dr. Johann Rockstrom is another great of mine who's also in the book, and from afar that we see at the UN conferences and big food advocate, planetary boundaries advocate. So we're going to have a wonderful deep dive discussion today about many things. Welcome, Kim. Sorry for the long introduction, but it is so wonderful to have you here. Well, thank you. You're very gracious and I'm very honored to be here. And I will say it was a super honor for me to assemble those articles from all those great people. I believe it. And it was almost awe-inspiring, I bet, because of the the wisdoms and just baby to work on with them and on such a visionary, futuristic type of a vision that we need to reach and where we need to go. Before we get too much into the book, I really want to ask you the biggest first question is, I want to see if you've been doing this for a long time and an environmentalist and also in the arts and helping all over the world. Has any of that given you some resilience and maybe could you give me an update of how you've been during this crazy time of the pandemic? How have you weathered and are you okay? And what what learnings or things have bubbled to the surface for you? Well, you're sweet to ask that question and and to care. I will assure you that I've been actually very good during it. I, Paul and I, my husband and I are at a good stage in our lives because our children are grown up and he's retired. So the work that we do continues without having to worry about maintaining a family. So that's a big a big relief and we empathize totally with all of the people that have been suffering so much financially, but of course, loss of lives and the long this long what they call now long COVID people who continue to suffer. We've managed to stay safe. An entire family has stayed safe. We've been wise and cautious and I think this moment is a great moment to to really understand the importance of the Golden Rule. Just the simple act of wearing a mask. You want to protect yourself, but but but then you also want to protect others. So that is totally a perfect example of the Golden Rule. For us as well, we were traveling like crazy for so many years and I have to say I had a lot of conflict about that because of the climate and the emissions from the airplanes and we had a terrible carbon footprint and so to stop traveling was a big burden lifted and so I felt good that I wasn't contributing anymore to that and we just really needed a quiet time to to be together and just restore our connection with one another really. So I know a lot of people have experienced that as well and we were able to experience that also so it was wonderful and just to stay at home and the whole the technology of zoom was incredibly liberating in a sense because a lot can be done. It can get tiresome. You have to manage it but but it's amazing what can be done in a super efficient way without any carbon emission. I was on something this morning early this morning with people from Hong Kong, Oxford, and St. Gallen in Switzerland and at the end of it he said we did this great four-day summit without any emissions. So I think you know let's hope that it does help move the world along in the atmosphere along in progressing towards a cleaner atmosphere. That's beautiful to hear. So I also travel quite a bit and obviously not during the pandemic but before quite a bit I don't know as much as you and Paul all over the world and I started from the example of Al Gore to do carbon offsetting and carbon capturing through one of my companies as well and through offsetting schemes and things and there's a bunch of different users out there. I'm sure you've probably done that as well. It's not as good as not flying at all but it's a step in the right direction. I think a lot of companies, airlines, even those who are doing events in 2019 and 2018 I was really adamant about when they would ask me to speak that I would send out requirements that they have to include some kind of carbon offsetting and if they didn't do that that I was going to do that and that would then have to be incurred by them somehow to offset that balance to get them thinking in a different direction about the future and about where we need to go and you know I don't know if you guys have been doing that for a while as well or if that's kind of helped you guys think in a different direction going forward in the future when we do start to travel again. Yes I did add a carbon offsets to my flights. The problem is it's still in the air and I wasn't 100% trusting the system to actually offset it so the best thing is not to but I do recognize I am a very global person. I hope to limit my reach going forward and I certainly am committed to not flying as much as I was for sure and I have more time to go in the car take a train. I totally love trains. Unfortunately my family spread out and to stay connected with them I do need to travel and then you know have friends all over. That's beautiful. I actually am not committed to fly less actually. I have family all over the world and friends all over the world, businesses all over the world. Matter of fact all the different pins on the thing or some project or event or a thing I have going on the world and I think it would be better to raise the bar a little higher and have those companies and those airlines and not only do carbon offsetting schemes but think of other means that we can still see our families around the world and be connected for vital meetings or vital things where you must be in person and for me a lot of that is family or business setups and to do it with alternatives fuels you know hydrogen based jet fuels or some new innovations to get us there and I've seen that emerge as well you know so there's not only Airbus has come out with some really wonderful things right now that they're pushing that forward a lot faster than their initial roadmap and we're seeing that shift that now a lot of airlines are saying well the carbon offset is automatically included in your ticket because we feel that's important and not the way that we can address it and now so I believe that no matter how horrific the pandemic has been it's kind of shined the microscope on a lot of things and a lot of problems above to the surface that we're just kind of waiting for the future to resolve but I think if we tackled it a little bit head on and did some proactive things to take the step in the right direction that it will happen because I was born and this leads to my next question for you as a global citizen my mother was German my grandfather was Austrian my father's American relatives in Italy and Japan and Spain and right from a baby I was global citizen running around meeting all these different cultures and all my relatives and not a big carbon footprint in the beginning as well but I need to see my family and back then there wasn't that technology available and so now I use that technology but I really want to see my family live and I think that business and the future of travel the future of way we do things can be more innovative to think more of the future I don't think we're going to need to get to Star Trek but I definitely think we need to think of more sustainable innovations that get us there faster and so that leads me nicely to my next question do you consider yourself to be a global citizen how would you feel about a world without borders nations divisions of humanity especially I think it would be amazing to have a world passport and not the national ones we are moving beyond tribal divisions we live close together and I kind of envisioned something like during the old days of let's just say the Ottoman empire where they would there would be these urban centers but then this like rural you know emptiness in between and you just they would just have this more open kind of system and I I think passports nationalities can limit our view we are a global world right now and we're facing global problems so we can't yeah we somehow have to work them out globally and the if you have these national barriers then you have to defend your nation's interests whereas there's so much that connects us and unites us and good things but also bad things so we do we do need more collaboration and I think the nation's nation-state concept does make that more difficult I would love to have an international passport yeah I would too I have a German and American passport so but I really believe that and especially the pandemic has shown us this that you know species air water food pandemic they're all global citizens they're not holding to any borders or divisions that that humanity is created for itself and then this nationalistic thing is really bubbled to the surface awfully in the pandemic so it's really sad to see that we're all team members crew members on this spaceship earth and we all can put our hand on the steering wheel and guide us to the future that we wish to see and Carl Sagan really said it best and it ties to the book imaginal cells there is this rising consciousness of feeling that the the world is seen as a single organism and a single organism divided amongst itself is doomed and basically the world our earth is a bigger single organism made of many cells and many systems that if we divide ourselves against each other we're doomed we need to collaborate and cooperate in a symbiotic earth with each other to really reach the future and so I think the golden rule as you discuss it in the book and as I've heard you say before is really a global rule as a global philosophy of thinking treat people on planet how you would like to be treated and is a very global thing now I have to make a comment our audible or our podcast listeners won't be able to see this but I'm going to try to describe it we're both wearing our SDG pins but there's a distinguishment between the two of them yours is much cooler yours is cooler because it's the SDG ring or pin with the golden circle the golden rule circle around us it's hard to see on the camera but that's one you're wearing which was something that you did on the side of the book as well as because you have some advocates for the SDG as your husband and also Johan and a few others that and that's very important and the SDGs envelop the golden rule and that and but that golden rule is also you know the circle around the SDGs that connects us all to each other and so I really love your answer and I love how how you describe that that and I want to really get into the book now and could I just go ahead so so the reason that we have the golden rules is is because you we can't fulfill the SDGs unless we live it but also going back to your comment about nature and the world I think it's worth just dwelling on this for a moment because if you look at nature it is this incredibly beautiful system that just flows from one to another and I remember when I was visiting South Africa and we went from the west coast and we drove east and you go through these these very different zones of of climate and nature and the soil the amount of water the vegetation and it just flows from one to the other and this this is if you travel across the United States you know you go across the Appalachians and then it flattens out and then you get you know go across the all the plains and then you go to the Rockies and then you come down and you get to California and all of that and if you just follow the nature it just flows gently they don't have passports and that reading about the sperm whales in Carl no no his name it's called Becoming Wild Carl Safina is the author and it's beautiful book but these sperm whales travel great distances and they just there's no there are no borders in the ocean even though we've set up fishing territories and all of that all this idea of these barriers are are really a human creation and I I don't I think it stems back from well maybe it's separate but it's similar of in the days of when the Europeans were exploring the world and bringing back species and categorizing them and you know you have all the deciduous trees and you have the conifers and you have this kind of bird and this kind of animal and there's this obsession with categorization and division whereas if you look at the way the Aborigines look at their environment everything is connected and the you affect one thing over here and it affects another thing over here and and it's it's one one flowing stream and it's some such a different and indigenous people when they they they think of their environment in a more holistic way rather than these categories that divide it's not neatly divided so I just wanted to throw that in. Yeah that's that's so important and and it's really species don't have borders and and we we're divided ourselves in so many ways that we really need to see the big picture. I just had Dr. Parag on my podcast a couple weeks ago and he looks at geospatial maps show the lights at night or show how things work from outer space but it's basically a digital live map of how the world is working you know ship movements and and all different things and those maps or that view of that big overview effect is very telling that you know there's also no borders or divisions there it's our world functions in a little bit different way and even though we're we're we're in lockdown but agriculture and food basically domesticated human beings there it's still outside and growing and and doing that but we're locked up in in these human zoos now and that we've gotten a microscopic view of what our human zoos look like and we've heard throughout the world that people are pretty unhappy that their human zoo wasn't created the way they they wanted to and they were going stir crazy and having cabin fever and domestic violence or eating themselves to death and that there was just a lot of other problems bubbling the surface that says they don't want to be in their human zoo that they've created for themselves for a lockdown for extended periods of times and it's really important that we realize that that these divisions are the way we separate our spells from each other plays a big effect on our culture on our futures and on the way we see and interact with the world and that's nice to the kind of change that you mentioned your family and and being you know spread out around I'm I'm a grandpa so I have adult children as well for adult children and just had my new grandbaby born for my youngest son on October 14th and they live most of them live in the United States and America and so I want to go see my grandbabies and hug and kiss them and spoil them as a grandpa and I need to travel but I want to do it in a way that doesn't harm humanity and it doesn't harm our environment and I believe in innovation for purpose and ways to do things and ways to to be global citizens and to to be part of this planet that doesn't go outside of the safe operating spaces of our planetary boundaries that doesn't need to harm in the same process and that really the reason I mentioned that is because I want to know if there was like a shift or what led you to become an environmentalist as some of these same thoughts or these same things that the way our world is set up or is working that you see that it's really not in harmony with with nature or human suffering is that was there any journey or anything kind of an aha moment or something that led you off onto this path so going back a long way when I was at the university in the 70s I remember taking a course in wildlife ecology I grew up out in the country so I did have a sense of the the view and I've always felt really close to nature and needed to be in nature and that and the wildlife ecology course just really helped me understand the system of it and of course traveling around I experienced many of these different systems and then of course in the there were books coming out at that time I remember Rachel Carlson's book Silent Spring and Shoemaker it was a Shoemaker's book Small is Beautiful these kinds of things and unfortunately these voices got a bit lost in the frenzy of the 80s and the 90s and the me you know there was this whole emphasis period of me focused on me and I just could never buy that line because I never felt like I'm alone on this planet I'm not alone in my family I have to live with other people it's not about me and I always did have the golden rule in my in my heart at some level um that's what I grew up with love love is is about thinking about other people so um but then the the real the the thing that really cinched it for me to to work hard on this golden rule idea was the Laudato Si the climate encyclical from from the Pope Francis in 2015 and uh I love that book so much I'm not Catholic but I love that book and he he addresses it to all citizens of the world and I thought you know this message really really resonated with me that he redefined the word dominion in the bible that man has dominion God gave man dominion over all the earth that was a phrase that always bothered me um he we he gives it the new interpretation of stewardship which is much more appropriate even though it still means that we're separate word like it's still responsible nature can take care of itself it doesn't need humanity but it is definitely a step up from domination so um I so then to me when he talks about the golden rule and uh then I was asked to participate in this book and help put this book together and instead of focusing on leadership we agreed to to have it revolve around the golden rule and when I then started looking into the golden rule I realized oh my gosh it's not just Christian it's it's the basis of every religion and in the book um since you've got it there in the middle of it are these pages that just pull out a few references throughout history that a historian has been working on uh for decades and um I love this one which I'll share from the Yoruba people in Nigeria one who is going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts I love that that's beautiful I think when we we we have the choice every day to think about if we're going to hurt somebody if we're going to help somebody and in our organizations that we work in in our families what we say it's it's about asking yourself every day what what you say and what you do and how does it affect others in the planet like I can see you thinking carefully about it in in all of your flights and how are you going to do that going forward in a way that that is helpful rather than hurtful and that's just one example but I know you're you're involved in food that's a really big question that's a big what am I eating and has it hurt people along the way to get to my mouth or has it helped anybody and so that this is a huge system that needs to be changed and a lot of people are working on that thank goodness and yeah it's it's rooted in in this simple principle that is so incredibly universal it is and that's why I find it so hard to go with that the thought that not only is it universal it's global it's something for us all that we then try to break it down and divide ourselves or fight against this this nature and and you know went from domination over nature to now stewardship and I also love them cyclical I think it's a very progressive pope but also such a beautiful way to to get many listeners many followers to think about things a little bit different and to put themselves into the picture with with nature and with biodiversity that we're not a dominating species on top of this planet we're actually part of the the ecology of the whole ecosystem of this planet and we're an integral part if you you know not only is the name but some of the other things that are described in here that I'm gonna let you touch upon in a moment so interesting is that we actually have more microbial cells in our body and more microbial genes in our body than we do human cells and human genes and what that truly means is that we have more in common with our planet with an oak tree with a squirrel with other species than than we do with us as human beings as far as cell to cell ratio and we we no matter what religion or what belief you have we crawled out of the primordial soup of this earth we are of this earth we weren't dropped off here by Mars or Venus or any other planet we we were born here and another quote from Carl Sagan which I really like is we're we're all made up of star stuff star dust you know and oxygen nitrogen carbon calcium they're all the basic elements of life but they're also the basic elements of our planet and our earth and how things are made up and and aren't so if we can get that connectedness if we can realize the connectedness of us and and our earth it just gives you a different view of how to act and how to progress and how to move forward without this not not very long-term model or sustainable model yeah it gives you a much better operating system or model and that's also you know one in the beginning I asked you about how do you weather the pandemic have you had some resilience with this type of model you guys have been operating on and thinking about for many years in in Germany and you you're probably well aware of this that they call your husband Green Paul because he's so great with not only the sustainable development goals but thinking in a greener sustainable direction and um that only occurs with that global or that universal view of the rest of the world because the way things flow in our world are all interconnected the stuff that occurs in Brazil affects us in Germany and the United Kingdom the stuff that occurs in the United States affects parts of China and other parts of the world it's all really interconnected um that that leads me to probably before we get too much into the book uh uh even more I want to ask you the toughest question that I have for you today and it's the burning question W2TF now don't be afraid it's not the swear word although this year I'm sure many people have been tearing out their hair saying the swear word it's actually what's the future well I can't see into a crystal ball but um you know it depends a little bit to how I feel about the future depends a little bit on how I read the newspaper if I read it from the front and don't have time to get to the back of it I get a little bit worried I get quite worried if I started the back I've discovered all the really fun articles are at the back so when I start from the back I don't have time to read the front so that I feel a lot better because the back is always about creative people doing wonderful things and so I suggest to people that they skip the front and just read the back on it but also I also feel hopeful because I do feel this great surge of awareness and connection that I think this COVID period has brought it has created some awful things but there's such a I think I believe very much that good eventually overcomes evil and I think the goodness that is coming out of this will eventually seep into other things and help us in all of the areas and young people generally have a much higher degree of awareness of wanting to move their lives differently than the dream that I grew up with which was to I'm probably not one of the biggest consumers but I am a big consumer I have to admit that and was is it's clearly not sustainable anymore and I don't want my generation to feel guilty for what we've done but because we didn't it was just a system that we were all born into and a way of life a way of thinking and it seemed endless the opportunities seemed endless so nobody is to be blamed for it but we do need to fix it and I encourage young people to to have a different dream and I think they do you know for the most part so that makes me feel hopeful I think companies themselves are waking up that they should not have built-in redundancies like the you know the classic example are printers that I learned from Bill McDonough that they have a chip in them that says after 10 000 copies they stop working nothing's really working but these companies have still not figured out they have these sort of recycling things but you have to pay for it and it's so we that whole model of these these machines has to change and is changing very slowly but this takes government working together with manufacturers working together with with consumer organizations to to change that whole model and make it great to repair a thing make it possible to repair things rather than cheaper to buy a new one so these are all the things that that are happening and that you talked about new fuel there's so many creative people working on all of these things that I think we're going to get there I do feel positive and of course with the change in some of the administrations around the world and leaders that will help a lot you brought up something interesting a couple of times now systems so I believe strongly in systems view of life and systems thinking and how systems make up our world and they're all around us a little bit of complexity science is inter mingled in the systems thinking or in systems as well what's your version what's your take well how do you see systems and when when you bring that up how does that not only tie into your book but your general philosophies and do we just need an add-on or a tweak to our current systems or do we need an entirely new system kind of want to know your philosophies our thoughts or maybe ideas around that since you brought it up a few times well I think food the way we produce food is is probably one of the most crucial systems again I mean you you know much more about it than I do but I'll just offer a couple of simple ideas again farms are individual cysts have been thought of as an individual system but it's not correct because when you clear the land and you clear the forest and particularly the amazon and the the the tropic forest in the middle of the earth if you cut these fragile systems down they it has terrible terrible repercussions and the soil isn't even that good but let's say the farms where I grew up in the Midwest and the United States you clear that land and you get these vast these vast fields of a monoculture well all of the native life there is gone and that has all of that native life has created that rich soil over so many years and we are just planting our seeds and exploiting that soil without thinking about how that soil needs to regenerate so and then of course with all the chemical then over time that soil depletes and then you have to use chemicals to supplement what's been depleted so then the problem is that those chemicals are not very precisely put on the seeds and so then it runs off the excess runs off into the waterways creates all kinds of problems in the in the in the rivers where it runs in the streams then it gets out into the ocean then you get these algae patches that take all the life out of out of it I mean it just is everything is connected and that's been ignored for for decades so that that's just a one example of a system that's beautiful I speak about systems all the time I just wanted to really hear from you and that's you have I could listen to you all day long because you have a beautiful very wonderful gentle voice and and I thank you for your wisdoms can you tell us a little bit more about imaginal cells and maybe your favorite contribution I'll tell you right now my favorite is is your introduction your what you wrote is my favorite part of it all and what I enjoyed the most but do you have a do you have a favorite or some some things that overarching take the way that means the most to you and what message you're trying to depart to the world the very title I could start with the very title imaginal cells they are the cells just briefly that hold the vision of the butterfly while this being is a caterpillar so there's two separate identities the caterpillar and this makes a great metaphor for what's going on today and gives hope actually in this period of chaos so the caterpillar gorges and gorges and gorges during his life and consumes consumes like that it's how our world is now we just consume consume consume finally we reach a tipping point and the caterpillar reaches a tipping point and goes into his cocoon he starts breaking down and that activates the imaginal cell it's actually biologically it's pronounced a marginal cell but we've changed it in our our metaphor to include the concept of imagination so the imaginal cell starts activating but the caterpillar cell the old way of doing things feels this new presence and feels threatened and starts attacking it and eating it and fighting against it but that the imaginal cell starts man starts multiplying anyway and they find each other they emit a common frequency and they find each other and they start collaborating in each the different cells actually have their own purpose so some are the legs some of the the butterfly some is the color some some are the mouth some are the antennas and so they they collaborate and form slowly this butterfly and so out of this chaos that the caterpillar finally gives up and disappears and and because of this collaboration the beautiful butterfly emerges so for us that common frequency is the golden rule treat others and the planet as you wish to be treated so when enough of us collaborate we are able to overcome the old way of doing things and and have this new worlds that is more cooperative more collaborative more helpful more supportive and less exploitative less extractive less greedy um so that that's that's the the beautiful metaphor from the book I couldn't really tell you what is my favorite article because I was just thrilled when I received them from our contributors the first one I got was from Jonathan Porat which I find particularly beautiful and I did I did get tears in my eyes when I got that one so it is very dear to my heart and but they all are really and we we continue to collaborate with a lot of our authors which is really very exciting in fact I I should mention that we are collaborating with Jonathan Porat he's writing a new book geared towards young people it's kind of a it is a blueprint um as his previous books have been for young people what else they can do in addition to rising up in fact that's what we're calling it rising rise up what they can do in their communities locally and and nationally uh to to and in a very short time span we both we've got till 2025 really to make some really important shifts in some of the pressures on on the world and then we're developing some teaching materials because we have a a another website called global dimension which is a platform for educational materials that different organizations around the world produce to to for teachers to download about the different issues of the world so it quite actually collaborates with our fits in with our book so this teaching material will be to encourage people to to follow this blueprint so I guess you could put it that way so this will will be doing and rolling out in 2021 that's beautiful thank you so much for sharing that um and I I'm sorry if I put you on the spot it's always hard when you have to compete about so many fabulous uh people the the collaboration is um is good to hear that it's continuing on I uh I'm also bringing out a book it's called menu B people in planet food saving solutions it's basically about global food reform changing the food systems or improving them uh drastically and uh also tons of contributors right now the count is about 38 contributors uh fabulous people all over and so if I know you and Paul's passion is around food so if you want to collaborate if you want to join forces I I would love to to have your voices as well we can talk about that offline but I food is definitely our passion and it's also the biggest lever as uh uh Johann and Paul and many others what you've said um to kind of get us back into the safe operating spaces of our planetary boundaries to draw down like Paul Hawkins says as well um our global warming and get us in a better situation not only is it the biggest effect on human suffering and and environment but it's also the biggest way to to make a big impact and change and it's such a beautiful cultural thing that we all do all the time especially with families and and and all around the world and so I'm just really passionate about it as well um and and and I've always been following you and Paul for many years uh not just because of the food but because of that carbonate and that you guys see uh food and and environment and sustainability tied together um I I have actually a few more not so difficult questions I think you're off the hook now there's by the way there's no wrong answer so he can't get it wrong we just I just want to get into the a little bit more in depth and substance you do the do a few things around the world as we talked about with those of uh who are blind or have vision problems but you also came out not too long ago with uh some kind of a planner wall planner for is it curriculum or is it for schools or education can you tell us a little bit more about that yeah the the wall planner uh was put out by our our team that focuses on education it's a big poster that teachers can use as a tool throughout the school year to help them um focus on different issues of the world so uh it's most it's built a lot around the UN days day you know they the UN has declared all kinds of days for the environment or for girls or for you know whatever whatever whatever so uh it points them to different tools uh that they can use um and also I this year's has different versions of golden rules that apply to each of them it's a great thing about this I keep harping on about the golden rule but it is so flexible and um adaptable so it's very good uh thing to date for people to keep in mind because for example if you want to be treated with dignity then you can assume other people do as well so then you should treat others with dignity and if you want to uh if you want people to speak kindly to you then you should also speak kindly to other people you can assume other people like that is like that as well um um you can think back on opportune moments when somebody has not spoken kindly to you and been very brutal and aggressive and you know who likes that right so we need to take that responsibility and be examples ourselves of speaking kindly um you could go through all of those UN days if you if you uh want to have if you are grateful for the education that you have or had then you should make that education possible for others as well obviously there's all kinds you know the rape and you know all of the horrible horrible things the abuse the the low pay if you are happy to have a good salary then you should make sure the employees in your organization are paves uh an honest fair livable wage so it's it's just as basic as that that's beautiful it's kind of like a reminder and a constant uh rolling calendar to let them know what what's coming up what's going on what are the activities and momentums around and how can they educate and rally to get to get students and kids active in in those areas are aware of what's going on i love that yeah that any teacher can can sign up but have some copies on our website global division yeah great i'll i'm gonna list your websites and every anything we talk about in the show notes with some links so that people can go out and and hopefully uh we'll catch a bunch of people who haven't read your book or didn't know about it that they'll go out and get a copy and uh we don't have it on amazon but from our website rebootthefuture.org that'd be great that'd be great and um here's a similar question that you've kind of already answered in one respect but i'm going to put a different twist on it and see if the answer comes out any different um what does a world that works for everyone look like for you yeah i agree with with the pope that um we need to have a kinder world um a more thoughtful world and where where people do ask them the question you know what effect am i having on others and the planet the sdgs provide a really good framework for going in that direction because it's very specific the golden rule is the motivational principle but the specifics are in the sdgs so i think uh yeah great worlds would be that that the sdgs have been satisfied my last three questions for you are really selfish for my listeners their takeaways that they could use or apply in their own lives and the first one is if there was one message that you could depart to the listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change our life what would it be your message i'm gonna have to repeat myself same thing right treat others and the planet as you would wish to be treated right what should young innovators um be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make real impact well i think there's a lot of talk about having purpose i find the idea of that word limiting it needs an adjective in front of it good purpose because even a weapons producer has a purpose so think about your i personally don't think a weapons producer has a good purpose i don't want a gun ever aimed at me so why are we producing these kinds of weapons um these kinds of machines to kill one another so that's for me not a good purpose so the good purpose goes back to the common values that we we talked about earlier the respect and the dignity the generosity the kindness you know all of these things and is there a way to embed this into your organization uh and it doesn't really matter what you do i mean it does you want to have a good a good product and a good service that is helping but the way you do it is as important as what you're doing and when you're doing it in this good way and being a good person you will do good things and you will be helpful rather than hurtful so um yeah just however you're building your organization build these principles and there's a lot of really good examples so recently i i met the woman who runs ground control in the uk they bought this organization and i can't recall 20 20 or 25 years ago and it was just a simple ground maintenance company but they have embedded so many beautiful principles into it so they profit share they provide a lot of mental health services they do everything all of their products are ecological um they really encourage education continuing education for all all staff they have a core um employees but then they do a lot they have a lot of contractors but they continue to train those contractors they continue to support them and they they don't just dismiss them you know it's it they encourage them to be successful as a contractor not just dependent on them but also with others and it's a very holistic very beautiful example of how the golden rule is embedded in their entire organization they don't use those words but the the principles are there and so deeply embedded in everything they do so there are examples out there that an innovator can look at and model so again the B certification system is another way of of embedding those principles and it's great it's better to start from the beginning with those principles rather than creating something becoming successful and then adding it into it successful financially because you might not be successful in terms of how you're treating your employees so so build it in from the beginning and you will be more resilient you will be more creative and innovative and adaptable uh if you have those at the very core of your organization that's beautiful thank you for sharing that I I say a lot in in my talks and and writings is that it's really not about the brands or the products of the future that will have the biggest impact on human health and human suffering and our our environment greenhouse gas emissions and some of the pollutions that we're we're having based around products whether it's single use or whatever it is it's how we produce those products that matters the most and that goes back to what I was mentioning about air travel there's a way to do it that's bad and harmful for human health and the environment there's a way that should be in the future that doesn't have that impact and that harm that is applicable to all brands and products and the way we do things that also has a little bit of that that golden rule in there and the resiliency in there if you were to do something in the depths of outer space to produce something there that was wasteful and in our energy and used a lot of chemicals in a closed system in in minutes no longer than hours you would quickly realize that you've just polluted or hurt yourself and you've created a product that that has a ripple effect or an effect on that closed environment whereas if we look at doing things differently innovative uh with purpose without harm on human health and environment and without these impacts within the planetary boundaries within our finite resources it really can be a game changer but it's a mind shift on how we look at that and that's how this for me what I kind of heard a little bit of the summation of what what you mentioned there yeah one um I want to share a bad example okay and that's in the book it's the it's about the ocean vessel the ocean fishing vessel that has this huge net that it's a kilometer long net that drags either it just catches everything as it's floating along absolutely everything or it's dragging along the bottom and destroying the entire ecosystem on the bottom so this story is just so shocking and these ships are still out there so my my question is if you are an investor it's it's about how we're all responsible so if you are an investor you should not be investing in this kind of fishing vessel secondly if you are a designer of nets you should not be designing a net like that and then thirdly if you are a consumer of fish it's very hard to get that information but try your best to not buy fish that have been fished in this way it's I when I read that story I've thought about a helicopter a giant helicopter going through my village or my town and just having this huge net drag along pick everything up all the houses and all the people in the lamp posts and the cars and everything and then wanting to take out a few red cars to keep and everything and everything else gets thrown back down destroyed like we wouldn't we would be protesting against that yeah exactly fighting wars about that yeah I did that so why what gives us the right to do that in the ocean is astonishing to me and it's the egoism of the human being that thinks that we're we're superior and that that the world is there for us to exploit and extract from without protecting and giving back and long term you know existence so I that that is that's a beautiful story I like that as well and I've worked on some projects that really are combating that and trying to solve those problems and change the fishing industry matter of fact more than one project three different projects around the world what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far your life that you would have loved to know from the start keep going and don't get discouraged and find find the people that you admire and look up to either read read their books or if you can get to know them better ask them for advice yeah I think having the courage to to choose the right way of doing things and not go along with what the system how the system is behaving I think having courage to go against the system would be a good thing I love that I really I think part of the process is a journey for myself so I like the journey but if I if I were to answer that same question I would say darn I wish I would have started sooner I just wish I would have started sooner more impact and more movement if I had only started sooner so that that's the only thing that I probably would add but I I really appreciate our time here together uh and unless there's anything else you would like to add or ask me uh that's all the questions I had for you and it's been a sheer pleasure well it's been a pleasure for me too and I'm again I'm greatly honored that you asked me and invited me onto your podcast and I I hope it's helpful it was beautiful thank you so much Kim and tell Paul hello and hopefully you'll see your kids soon and I wish you all the best in this holiday season and upcoming new year and hope that we can follow up again next year and have a little bit deeper discussion of what you've done and and what's progressing for you and your family yeah and I I think since January is the month of New Year's resolutions I hope everybody will embrace the golden rule and make it their new year's resolution thank you so much thank you take care I really appreciate it