 session of panelists who lead from different industries talking about how CEOs were always at the hem of innovation, how they are leading the change and thinking about the new. So I'll first start with Radhika. Radhika, what are your views on innovation? Do you think in today's time when we discuss about the new normal, the meaning of innovation has changed in the last two years? So I think innovation is not unidimensional. Innovation has always existed, but I think when we have talked about innovation in most of our industries at least mine, it has often been in the context of product innovation, at least in an industry like ours. And I think that continues to be there. I mean, you have to be innovative, be in product and channel, etc. But I think COVID has also taught us that there's much more in the name of innovation. I think workplaces, for instance, in the way we deal with people is perhaps the area that has seen the most innovation in the last two, three years. I mean, the fact is, look, we're sitting here and we're doing a panel like this, which is effectively a hybrid format panel. You have one guest who's sitting on the dais and you have two of us joining virtually. I am the mother of a recently born two month old and in an old era, I would have not been able to do this panel. I was not traveling, but here we bought an innovative approach to communication. So I think the lens that we look at with innovation has changed and has widened. And the kind of innovation that we are trying to focus on is innovation in the way we hire, for instance, over the last two, three years, ours is a talent industry, talent has been our crunch, talent has been very, very expensive. So can we differentiate and hire very, very differently? Can we have new models to hire talent in the way, innovation in the way we market? So I think a lot of innovation comes in that. The second point I would want to make on innovation is over the last three years, I have sort of developed a strange dislike for the word innovation in the context of financial services because it has come to be associated with complexity. And I truly believe that innovation that is powerful is innovation that is useful to a consumer. So anything that is simple and solves a consumer problem at scale is innovative. And I think in a country like India, the need of the hour is not complex third order innovation, especially in financial services, the need of the hour is simple things that create impact at scale. I mean, you live in a country where Prime Minister is still asking people to open bank accounts. So innovation is powerful when it happens simply and with scale. So I think a culture of useful innovation is also important. Ankit, coming to you, what are your views on innovation and has it changed its meaning in the last two years? Yeah, firstly, thank you for having me on this panel and my apologies for not being there in person. I want to just say a few things. I think one is my own view is that the next 10, 15 years is India's time. It's just incredible, incredible opportunity for India to leap forward to a first world country. And it's really on all of us and all the entrepreneurs and all the people who are present to make that happen. It's not for someone else to find a way. And really in that then one of the critical parts is innovation. However, you describe it. For me personally, I've seen on the manufacturing side, there's a real opportunity to take Indian technology products and compete with the best in the world. I'm extremely proud that we make these unique products, which provide essentially broadband to over 120 countries. We're probably one of few companies in the world who've done that and we've invested heavily in R&D. We have massive R&D centers all over the world and with 750 patents. So my point is, it's not so much about STL, but to believe that such solutions are possible in India with our own talent and we can compete life for life. I mean, one of the things we always talk about is can we compete on quality? We've been able to compete on price or cost, but not necessarily always on quality and innovation. And I just want to reassure everyone there that that is very much possible. And it's really important for entrepreneurs who are sitting there to also believe that it's not always just about getting to the lowest cost. Yes, you have to be cost competitive, but I think in this world, you have to have to focus on quality, focus on customer experience. And I think that's a big part that we are differentiating on. I think really linked to COVID, but also prior to that, few things that we decided to do differently. One was how we put ESG front and center, rather than a tick in the box about the 2%. We are, as of last week, the only company in the world to be certified zero ways to landfill across our operations around the world. That is my first opening slide to my every customer around the world. It's not how big we are, it's not what product I have, is that we are the most sustainable company in the world and people are shocked that Indian company even cares about it, more so leading the world about it. So that's an example of innovation where customer says, wow, I want to be with you because you're leading the charge on sustainability. The second part we've done in terms of innovation is actually built a very unique platform to what we saw because of supply chain disruptions around the world. One of the biggest challenges our customers had was just visibility on demand, almost like Amazon of where their goods were at any point of time. And so we said about doing that, there was no one platform that we could use. We actually got startups, large companies altogether in a room and we actually created first of its kind platform that when a good lease, my factory to Indian port to a ship to a US port to the customer, all of that can be tracked on demand by the customer. So these are just examples that I'm sharing in terms of where we've looked at innovation. And I fully agree with what Radhika said ultimately comes down to how you're improving the customer experience. And every time we found ways to do that, the customer values you and wants to stick with you. So I think that's how I see it. I certainly got an accelerated by COVID and I would really encourage the entrepreneurs to think outside of the box to create their customer experience. So thank you, Ankit. We'll come back to both of you during the discussion. Rupesh, coming to you, how TeamViewer as a company looks at innovation because digital transformation is something they've all been talking about. And in the last two to two and a half years, it has surely taken a leap. So what are your views on this? Sure. So if you look at innovation, for me or for us as TeamViewer, it's more being relevant to the current times. We have seen changing environments every day. And what is it that you can do to simplify the life of your customer? And what all areas, if you operate, can help them simplify business is innovation for us. Case in point, very simply put is it cannot be in every area. It's not a whims and fancy that let's go and know it. But the first thing that we look at is where is it really required? So what is the problem statement? So identifying areas where there are opportunities to improve. And then thinking of building solutions in those areas, those kind of innovations really get you where you want to be in business or with business with customers or within your organization from an improvement standpoint. So when we studied and researched the market, we realized that 80% people in an enterprise are actually people who are not on systems. Right. So what do we do to get the information that these people who are sitting in working in plants in warehouses or on the field servicing the machines that you would have sold? How do you get the information to them? So the innovation is where we were able to create a platform to which could be used by the 80% of the people. Otherwise, IT was more used by people who are sitting in our office. So such enabled changes really lead to innovation. And that's what we're doing a team. We are now able to get the 80% of employees or members in your team who are not on the systems, the data or access to the data to simplify their work. So I want to go next from all of you, since as CEOs you are in charge of that innovation ecosystem, but you're also responsible for the PNL of the company. So how do you maintain a fine balance in terms of how overboard can you go in terms of launching a new innovation in the entire organization and also keeping an eye on the profitability or the shareholder margin. Radhika, I would like to ask you this first. You know, I'll start with an example. I think that leads well to profitability. We launched a product called Bharat Kaur and ETF with Government of India three years ago. And it is extremely innovative product. It solves a consumer problem by being a tax-efficient replacement to FD. Now it was a no margin product at that point in time. And so there was a lot of criticism from at least peers around us, etc. that we were going to launch a no margin product and there was a certain amount of marketing and spend. And we were a loss making company back in the day. We however firmly felt that the investment was worth it because we could build a franchise because we would acquire customers. Today that franchise is 50,000 crores. Because we were able to succeed with that, we were able to launch a bunch of products on the back of that that were fee only. So I think the short answer is that if you are doing something that adds value to the consumer, if you are able to then monetize those consumers and I also know that we live in times where business models are under question and profitability is under question. So if you are able to monetize acquire consumers and then eventually monetize consumers, then I think innovation can be very, very profitable. So that is the way that we think about innovation in the context of our industry. In financial services, I do feel and in asset management, the cost of failure is reasonably low. So our model for innovation is to try often and the team often asks what if you fail. If there is no regulatory cost of failure and if there is no damage to the brand, then we are okay to invest. We are also quick to cut losses however. So if something is not working and we are not getting the feedback, then we stop investing in the area. So the pace of innovation is due a lot because the cost of investment is usually low and go from there as long as there is not any regulatory risk and once in a while a sort of game changing opportunity like Parathorn comes out. As I said at the beginning, I truly believe that in any industry, if you do the right thing for the consumer, you will find a way to make money out. Ankit, any examples you would like to share? Yeah, so I'd break into two or three things. One is I think you have to be fundamentally for business, you have to play on the front forward, you have to play to win. You cannot be defensive and you're not going to grow if you're defensive. That doesn't mean you do anything and everything. It means you do prioritize what are the investments that we possibly create the best plan for your buck. And you move forward. See in my industry, most of my competition are global companies, multi-billion dollar companies and they probably have 5 to 10 times the R&D budget that I have. So I have to be, I have to still be on the front foot, I have to out invent them with probably one-fifth the budget and that's the task cut out. And the beauty of it is that it actually for me is much more on the culture, how do you drive the innovation rather than whether we should invest or not. That's a given that we have to invest if I want to. My ambition is to be world top three where we are and for me, there's no option but to continuously innovate in what we do. So then it comes out to how do you drive the right culture of innovation and then it gets into what is innovation, what is Jugaad and all of these language. One of the things that's worked for us very simply is you don't need a lot of these big bang life-changing ideas. And I think Azitya Ghosh, one of my friends said it, is if we can do a billion one dollar ideas, that works for us. And so we don't need a lot of big bang. That's the same thing when I walk into the factories, work with the shop floor team, is every day if we can do something slightly better, that's still a step forward. And we really encourage people to come up with those ideas. And then the core which is still a problem I think and we have to solve for that particularly in India is that how do you still let people take risks on the shop floor ultimately. Because when you come down to KPIs, ultimately only rewarded for positive performance. But how do you tell them with your heart and place that your failures are mine and all the success is yours. And then you really encourage them to make that happen. And you keep doing that, you keep doing that, you keep them, how do you even celebrate failures which a lot of companies talk about. I think that's the trickier part to solve for so that people really come in and once you solve that, I think even the talent that you give to attract will be phenomenal, where people come in and hey, I can really try new things here and I'll not be kicked out of the company for trying something that I felt was in the interest of the company. So I think that's something for me extremely important on the innovation. I think overall I do believe I've worked in various countries around the world. But the sheer willpower, the sheer effort, the sheer energy that we have in our youth in India, I really believe that we have a lot of the table stakes to be one of the most innovative countries in the world. Thank you. CEOs, all three of you, I mean, are also in a way intrapreneurs. And Radhika, of course, you have walked that path. You have been an entrepreneur yourself before you sold the company to either of us. So there are a lot of people in the audience who actually want to understand as leaders, when you're walking that path of introducing something new, walking the innovation way, how do you take the entire team along and act in those times as a leader and you should know, okay, in the future, how they should be prepared for what new is to come? So I think before I answer that question, I don't want to say one thing is that there is the audience is full of entrepreneurs and we are probably celebrating the best of startup India culture today. But innovation also exists in corporate India. And just because you are a CEO or forget CEO, just because you are an employee of an organization does not mean you're an entrepreneur. I fully truly believe that entrepreneurship is a state of mind. It's not a state of employment. And that has been my firm belief as I transitioned from entrepreneur to professional CEO. I got a lot of comments at that era that you're selling your company, you didn't have a boss, finally someone will become your boss, you're not the owner anymore, that's a load of Bapu Asha. I think finally all of us are accountable to stakeholders, whether you're an entrepreneur or whether you are a full-time CEO or employee. And all of us in a country like India have an opportunity to innovate in our industries and in our roles and in our line of work. So innovation can happen anywhere. It's not conditional on your employment. I think it's how you drive innovation. I think a lot of it comes down to how you motivate your team to take risks and what do you do if risks fail? I know Ankit also touched upon this point, but people feel scared to take risks because of the fear of failure. And when there is a fear of failure, suddenly you see a sense of risk aversion. So as a leader, I think I know when we were doing a product launch last year and there was a lot of failure about not taking off. I said, listen, if it works, the credit is yours and if it doesn't work, I'm happy to take the downside because I have a sense of what the downside is. And I know the downside is not that bad. Sometimes as a CEO, you have more of an ability to step back and say, the outcomes of failure are not so bad. A lying guy will not feel that. So I think how you incentivize, how you talk about failure and how you take credit for failure is important. The second thing is I think innovation needs a culture of open ideas. I truly believe that the best innovation now doesn't come from board rooms. It comes from what I call the battlefield. It comes from the ground. It comes from customers. One of the exercises that I do as a leader is every six months I do a catch up with and we are about 300 people. It's not a huge job, but reasonable size. I do a catch up with five people in a group of different teams and I don't speak in that catch up. I just listen to suggestions. And it's become a great format because I think some of our best ideas come from the ground. So if you build a culture where people are willing to speak and you are open to listen, you will find innovation in small, small pockets in your organization. Ankit, any lessons you wish to share with us with regards to leadership? Ankit, we cannot hear you. Sorry. I was saying there are some things I think CEO cannot avoid. Number one is this CEO has to be extremely positive, not just positive. In whatever is going on, you have to be the rock to find the positivity in it because everyone is seeking their positivity from you. And that's just a given in my experience, but also when I speak to my friends or anyone else. So it starts from that place. Okay. I would request the team to give the login session again because I think they have logged out in the meantime. Rupesh, if we can have the answer for you. I think the team could have solved this problem. Okay. So, see, in my opinion, first of all, giving team the confidence that they will win and really pushing them and being with them is the first thing I believe to have an innovative team which will be successful. Second point is, I believe deeply in the principle of frugality, where everybody talks of heavy investments. Things can be achieved by little investments also. So, how can you solve a problem not using too many resources? Is what someone should also look at? Because that also gives you a view, whether the innovation that you're bringing to the table, is it can be, do people really want the innovation or the Jugaad as Ankit was saying? Some things work with Jugaad. Is that innovation really required? And then to have that confidence and go on the front foot. For example, so, we came in with a solution of augmented reality where we're talking about the maintained people in manufacturing lines using smart glasses. Now, everybody will be like, wow, I mean, this is so sci-fi and how can you use smart glass and build that solution and so on and so forth. But when you really link it with the value it creates to the problem and you're able to solve it, you're able to sell it number one and sail through along with your team to build a business case to monetize it. So, there are two parts to it. One is the frugality as to finding a simpler way of doing it. And when we are sure, then don't hold back as Ankit was saying, play on the front foot. So, once you're sure that the solution which you are providing is the one, okay, then just play with a lot of confidence to the team, play on the front foot and deliver it. Because too much analysis also leads to paralysis as they say. Just move, keep moving and you will get there. Yes, there will be tweaks required. There will be an evolution, but you will get there. You have to be persistent with it and just deliver. Yes, so multiple areas the way we are creating an ecosystem where we can create value for our customers. So, startups definitely come in with a lot of fresh blood from experience and the knowledge that they bring to the table is immense. So, there have been areas where we've partnered with these entrepreneurs to really create newer models which customers can adopt. So, for instance, now EV is the next big thing. And there are a lot of startups who are doing EV charging stations. So, they came up with the thought that if there are EV stations all over, can we do a remote connectivity to make sure that all EV stations are up and running, all the time charged? So, those ideas are coming in. We've created a platform, but startups are coming with ideas as to how you can leverage the platform to create their own solutions. So, startups are creating solutions on top of team viewer as well. So, that is how we are also growing and creating the ecosystem which is for everyone. So, good to have both of you back. So, Ankit, you were sharing some lessons with us on leadership when we lost you. Yeah, I'm in the connectivity business. So, I'm particularly upset that we lost the connectivity. So, yeah, I think what I just spoke of in terms of how critical it is to be positive and optimistic. I think clearly from a cultural spectrum, I fully agree. It's not just for entrepreneurs or startups to be in a certain mind frame. I think all companies have to be looking at it. I mean, in fact, we've seen clearly that five-year tenure strategies have almost become meaningless. You may broadly want to have a view of where you want to get to. But really, we have to relook at the details probably every six or 12 months, the way the market and what is happening and global events are happening. And then that's a little bit linked to agility. I mean, I think that's something that typically you find that as companies scale up, certainly as a small companies startup scale up, you typically want to put in those process and systems to make sure that you're ticking the boxes. But then how do you just still balance that with quick decision making and moving forward? Because there's really nothing worse than kind of thinking through too long over taking a decision. Very often, even a bad decision or a wrong decision is not as bad as just sitting on something for too long. And then I think the last part I would add is, I think my own style has been towards a bias for action. And by that, I mean, yes, you can have a certain strategy charted out. But really, I find that the biggest challenge for me personally has been just the execution, just getting the top talent on board absolutely aligned towards execution within a certain time frame and really running it in a project management style. I really encourage even the entrepreneurs and others in the audience to disproportionately focus on building those tools and capabilities towards the execution, rather than overly thinking about some breakthrough idea and all of those. Because we've seen enough cases where you just, you don't have the challenge on the idea or far more challenging on the execution on the ground. So I think that's a skill set I would strongly recommend the same for innovation or anything else, even your core business. I would say disproportionately have a bias for the execution. Sure. Another question I want to ask you is, is STL in any way driving innovation while working with startups? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can think of probably eight or 10 ways, but in context of time. So we're actually doing some very interesting things on in AI and ML, for example, where to reduce our scrap rate, we're using a startup to look at, you know, through visual inspection, while our manufacturing is going on, whether there's a scrap so we can catch it early and then avoid the scrap later in our process. That's one example. We're working with many logistic startup companies for looking at how to minimize our time and our cost. I just gave this example of global logistics, how we are able to map again using startups. We're also looking at startups on the hiring and recruiting side, where again, now there are AI ML machine learning algorithms to go through CVs and be able to create the fit for you in an automated way. So many such examples. And again, it's never come up with an intent that we must use a startup or a large company. It's always been what's the need, what's the budget, and who can serve this for us as fast as possible. And more often than not, we're finding startups come to the table and step up. What I also appreciate with the startups is they're much more open to customize and create things personalized for you, rather than saying, here's my brochure, take it or leave it. And I really feel more and more corporates are looking at it. I don't think they're the exception. So I would encourage the entrepreneurs to not kind of undersell themselves. And I said, be on the front foot, approach the corporates and find ways to work together. Radhika, any innovation which you have brought with startups at Edelweiss? To be honest, we haven't had the opportunity to work with too many startups simply because I think in the asset management business, we've largely worked with established players. That said, I do think that because there has been an absence of startups serving our industry, there is perhaps a very large opportunity because the old players, whether you look at registrar and transfer agents, whether you look at analytics providers, et cetera, are old age players. So someone who brings in agility, someone who brings in technology and someone, the differences in financial services also is able to be regulated and command the regulatory workforce. Actually, there's a very powerful proposition. So I always say that if I were to start a startup, I would not start one in asset management. I would start one as a service provider to the asset management industry, either as a registrar and transfer agent or as an analytics provider. So no, I don't think we work with them and they're not too many serving our industry, but I just think that there's a tremendous amount of potential for people to come forward. So with this, I would like to throw open the floor for questions and before we lose the connection with our other two panelists, please raise your hand if you have any questions for any of our speakers. Good afternoon. I'm Dr. Singul from XLRI. The question is to all the panelists. So we had a chat about innovation and how you as CEOs are trying to implement it in our companies. We talked about companies accepting the failure and the cost of innovation. Can you please talk a bit more detail about how do you transmit that information to your employees down the line? How do you beat the last part of the question, transmit information? So how do you transmit that information or that sentiment that the company is going to support and is going to sort of absorb the costs which will involve the required innovation or the failure of it? I can take the jabber. I think for us it's just been by, of course, you communicate it. We do it very actively in our town halls, for example, which is one supporter. We do it when you visit the factories on shop floor and it's just you have to keep repeating it, but also I think you have to demonstrate it. So for example, one of our values at a company is hunger to learn. So we will in our town hall give examples of teams that tried something different, which could have had a very meaningful impact to the business and for variety of internal external deals. It didn't work out and we will still reward them in a public firm and it's not about the monetary reward itself as much as A, recognizing that there was a sincere effort put and B, that it's okay even if it didn't work out, we appreciate the sentiment with which you put your life into it and try to make it successful. So I think it's just with anything and when you're trying to drive a certain behavior, you have to just keep repeating it continuously. And again, keep an open mind into if you're, of course, if you're continuously seeing trends that people are trying things and not being successful, then you have to go deeper into what else you can do to enable that to be successful because obviously whether you like it or not, it does impact your personal, your company morale. So you want to create good wins to celebrate the wins, but also then keep showcasing where people put in their best and may not have worked out. So that's been my experience. Yeah, I tend to agree with Amrit. I think often when innovation is expensive, I remember during the barricade time, there were constant questions on people's find why are we doing this? This is loss making, etc. I think your own conviction, your own optimism shows in the communication and very often I think companies don't communicate about this. They don't like taking the questions. I think being open and taking those questions that are on people's minds because just because you don't talk doesn't mean the questions don't exist. The questions will exist when you're open to talking about them, then you're open to communicating your vision for that, which they're not going to buy into maybe at inception, but they'll buy into some will buy into six months later, some will buy into it a year later, two years later. I think optimism and conviction, I think people can read through your body language, which we give them less credit. The second is how you actually react to failed innovations. I mean, the language you use, the words you say, do you put pressure on people who have failed? Do you penalize them or do you celebrate them, as he said, through town halls and other exercises? But how you react in that particular moment, I think often determines. All culture is usually not determined. I mean, we do values days and we do town halls where we award values, but I don't think then we write it on our wall, but I don't think culture is finally shaped by that. Culture is often shaped in the day to day. So, you know, when you talk, obviously, I agree with Ankit in terms of town hall communication, especially in larger organizations where there is a recognition on everything that is happening, some things which are really giving you heavy dividends, some things which are not working as much. However, you know, when it is an organization which is led by innovation, it is not binary or black and white. Every exercise that is done, you know, reaps some benefits to the organization and organization recognizes that. So, you might not get the end result, but you certainly get some learning out of that, which is put to use. And recognizing that is what I think we've been able to do. And that has led to a lot of, you know, excitement amongst researchers or even people who are working on the field to constantly keep trying doing something, you will lead somewhere, not every innovation. You know, all of us know the startup story, right? Only two or three percent actually go where they want to go. But that doesn't mean that others are complete failures. So, we promote that. Any more questions? Hi, my name is Saheb. I want to ask the panelists that I have a challenge that I face a challenge that I want to know that how the corporates tackle. So, basically, I have a new company. I am a very young person. I'm 22 years old. And I have an infrastructure company. We have operations across pan India. But I want to know that while like I always am a believer that, you know, corporate rules, systems and processes should be implemented in startups, so that everything is in order. And if things go without processes or systems, that is usually the case with all the startups. So, we make losses or there are a lot of things that goes by that the CEO cannot see when there are very different teams working. So, if we implement those systems and processes and we are smaller in team like 30, 40 or 50, so that final deliverables get delayed a lot of times because people are very, if there are multiple teams set up and everyone has to follow a written set of protocol and rules. So, the final deliverable is usually delayed or there's some problem in that. So, do you face those challenges? And if yes, then how do you tackle those? Yeah, I'll take this one. So, in my tenure as a, you know, as a business consultant, I've seen this, you know, in many occasions. And I always, you know, make one comment that, you know, don't take an antibiotic just because you sneezed. Okay. So, you have to play on your strengths. Okay. Especially the strength of a startup is being flexible, is being agile. Okay. Then a established or a very large enterprise. Right. So, the strength being flexibility and agility, you have to play on it. If you create too many processes within the company, I'm not saying don't create processes, but you have to evaluate. If you're creating too many processes that is causing the delay, you have to rethink the whole model and simplify. Okay. More often than not, you will find that, you know, you are trying to run your company like a large enterprise, which is not required. Okay. Like, you know, Ankit will agree, you know, Sterlite technologies for that matter did not implement all the processes day one. It evolves. So, go with the evolution. Go step by step. And don't complicate things, simplify. And it doesn't mean that everything has to be done in the system. There are easier ways of doing it. And, you know, experience will teach you, you know, that is what I would say. Go stepwise, don't complicate things. Thanks. Yeah. Just to add, I think it's ever it was, I would be wrong to say even this morning if there was something I thought should have been done and it wasn't done. I think the big shift I've seen personally myself is probably, you know, versus even three, four years ago, where I would, you know, go after the person or the individual. A lot more now for discussions happen. Okay. If something was not delivered to a customer or any other part of the business, what part of the process was broken and what you will do to fix the process. And it's always open-ended question. I think that's probably we're moving into leadership style. But I think that's extremely critical to understand what questions to ask and how to ask the questions from your team, because you don't need to come up with all the answers and you're not going to be able to know what process to set up all by yourself. So just again, it comes back to what are you aspiring towards, where do you want to scale up? And then clearly, as I said, we don't need to have everything, you know, sorted out only one, no company does really. And even where we are at, we've been in business for 30 years, we're still going to evolve, right? The ambition is to grow 10x from here. We will need a lot more processes. But you know, you can't wait for everything to happen at one go. And I think the more you can involve your team to drive and fix those processes rather than do everything yourself, the better odds of your success. Radhika, anything you want to add, because you've seen both sides of the world? Yeah, you know, I came from a startup world where virtually there was no process. And I saw a lot of frustration when I moved to a corporate environment where there was a lot of process. And now I perhaps am in, I am perhaps run a business, which is the most regulated industry in India. So we have the maximum number of mandatory processes. And yet I still think we are a very agile company. So I just want to make a point that while, yes, cut down the number of, you know, processes, even if you have a lot of mandatory process, agility is a state of culture. Agility is an important part of culture. Very often when we see, it's not the process that slows people down. It's interdepartmental politics. It's a lack of ownership. It's a lack of a guy in a back office function feeling that he needs to do this quickly because sales is really not his thing. So a lot of it gets caught in a trap of culture. I think if you have a lot more interdepartmental conversations, for instances, where different processes are, where you push people to realize that while they're doing things in one day rather than seven days actually matters to the consumer, even though they are not consumer facing. If you do things like this, even while having a certain amount of process, you will build agility in an organization. So the only point I want to make is that agility can coexist with process if you fix culture. I think with this, we would like to conclude the session. I would like to thank both of you and Rupesh for joining us offline and both of you taking out your time and joining us and logging in again. Thank you.