 So again, I just want to take the opportunity to thank all of our panelists for their time and their perspectives this evening. I look forward to all of your questions and to our discussion together. So Nick, at this point, I will turn it over to Neil and welcome everybody. I'm very excited that we're having this event. This is a topic that has been a passion of mine for well over 10 years now throughout my career in libraries ever since realizing the huge digital divide that exists in our world today and it's only getting worse as more and more information is excess solely online. And one of the primary things that public libraries have done through all of this is to try to bridge that gap for people who are most at risk. And in my time in Chilacothe, I was the director of Chilacothe and Ross County library before coming to Athens, and then as well in my time here in Athens, I have tried to find ways to use the library's resources to help to bridge that gap. But we're going to go ahead and go around the panel now to do a brief introduction of our panelists, but before that we are going to roll out a poll, and I hope that this is going to go smoothly he said, aside to Jen. But we're going to roll out a poll to everybody to tell us a little bit about who you are so that we can have a sense of the audience here today. There's the poll. So just if you could over the next few minutes, identify where you are in any of those categories, and we'll go ahead and start going around our panelists. So we're going to go alphabetically by first name so Dr. Amy Wolf, please tell us by yourself. Hi. So I was filling out the poll. I found myself falling into multiple categories which I think you probably many of you also do. So I'm here representing my life as a parent in this interesting time in this interesting region. But I'm also a faculty member at Ohio University Chillicothe campus. And I'm also a teacher. So I share that perspective and my heart is a teacher. I work in the teacher preparation program at Ohio University Chillicothe. So my students are engaged in learning experiences in the classroom with K to 12 pre K to 12 students. I guess that is sort of an overview of who I am and why I'm here on this panel. I look forward to hearing all of your perspectives. Thank you. And Austin Gilbert. Yeah, I'm Austin Gilbert. I'm a current employee of the Athens County Public Library. I served for four years as a digital literacy instructor first for the Megs County District Public Library, and then for a year at Athens County. It was through a program called guiding Ohio online, which is a state library program that places instructors in rural and low income Ohio libraries to assist in closing the digital literacy gap. Through my time with guiding Ohio I led group and individual instructional sessions covering digital topics from beginner computer use intermediate and advanced technical skills and in between classes and tutoring sessions I provided just sort of on demand tech support for patrons who needed trouble shooting of any of their existing tech. So I feel I'm well versed with the current digital issues facing a lot of my neighbors and community members in a library patrons I have answered just about every technical question under the sun at this point. So I think that's a pretty decent overview of where I am. Great. Thank you. Next up is Claudia Cisneros-Mendez. Thank you. Well, first I want to thank the OU libraries, the Athens County Libraries College of Health Sciences and Professions and also the Appalachian Rural Health Institute for this invitation as well as Dr. Thank you so much for letting me participate in this conversation. My name is Claudia Cisneros. I am a journalist originally from Peru. I arrived here to Athens, Ohio in 2017 and studied a master's in communication and development here at Ohio University. I'm currently pursuing a master's in journalism. So I'm very active in social media. I have over 500,000 followers on Twitter. I work with Dr. Ken in the smart lab, also because of my interest in social media. And I was, like I said, part of this interesting study of the Appalachian in Southeast Ohio, Ohio. And the Appalachian for me is a place I had no idea that existed in the United States until I arrived here in 2017. And it was both a beautiful and a sad surprise because of both its marginalization and at the same time for the richness of its culture. And I have since learned so much about it and thanks to this paper also that we would talk about today. We were able to get to know a little bit more about the Appalachians and hopefully to contribute to something with this region. I just wanted to say that when it's my turn I'm going to be talking about what is digital inequality or inequity. How we conducted the study and how we collected the data. And I will also explain the concept of vital internet use, which is the concept that we propose in this paper. And finally I will refer to how this pandemic has validated this concept of vital internet use. Finally, just in this introduction to say that I am part of a team who worked on this research with Dr. Han Lede, Dr. Welser, Haone Manitok, and Aika Carlina Aytris. It was conducted, the research was conducted in 2018 and published in 2020 in Telematics and Informatics Journal. Thank you. Next up we have Jan McGarry. My name is Jan McGarry. My pronouns are she, her, and hers. I have spent my entire life in Appalachia. I was born and grew up in Logan, Ohio. I graduated with my bachelor's from Ohio University and then with my master's from the University of Rio Grande. I have been a teacher for Athens City Schools for 18 years. I taught first grade for eight years and second grade. This will be my 10th year in second grade. I'm also an adjunct professor of early childhood education at Ohio University. Most importantly, I'm the mom of a 13 year old, soon to be eighth grader at Athens Middle School. And in the past, I've also had the opportunity to go to Washington DC to sit down with our representatives in the House and the Senate to advocate for broadband access in Southeast Ohio and for net neutrality. I'm really excited to be part of this discussion as both a parent perspective and as an educator. Thank you. Thank you. Dr. Lee Khan. Hello everyone. Thanks, Nick. My name is Lee Khan, as you all know by now. I'm an assistant professor in the School of Media Arts and Studies in the Scripps College of Communication. And I'm also serving as a director of the smart lab, which stands for social media analytics research team or smart lab. And we have been working since 2015. I'm the founding director of the lab. The main reason we established this lab was to promote a better understanding of the use of social media in general, and analytics and data in particular. My areas of interest are quite broad. I'm looking into research and health communication, government PR, as well as business. So there are a range of things that we study within our lab and as Claudia was introducing, she's part of a very valuable team member in our lab where we have been working on so many interesting things. So the idea for this paper or this research study came about long time ago when I was working on a bill in Melinda Gates Research Grant at Michigan State University. We were looking at the economically disadvantaged regions in Michigan with a special focus on public libraries and their role in society. So I love our Athens Public Library and its strong support of it. My kids love it. I think that's such a beautiful place to go in Athens. And looking at that, this sparked interest in this topic and how we came about looking at the Appalachian region. I really like the way Claudia introduced it as a beautiful but surprise as well because before coming to Appalachia I was not aware of the economic and digital inequalities in this region. And that was a point when I really thought that this has to be studied and brought in the form of research papers so that we can speak from a position of strength when we are talking about the kind of issues that communities are facing in this entire region and especially in Athens area and surrounding counties. So we'll talk about it more as we progress in the meeting and this was hopefully a brief introduction of myself and the kind of work we do. Great, thank you. And last but not least, Shelby Roberts. Hi, I'm Shelby and I am currently a youth services librarian at the Athens Public Library. I'm from Athens, Ohio native and also being a bit on the younger side here and part of the generation that are kind of digital natives. I grew up pretty much relying on the internet for a lot from social interaction to school work. And I see that trend kind of continuing and expanding here today. I'm here mostly to talk about my personal experience with digital inequity, particularly having faced it, both living out in rural middle of nowhere and having no access to internet at all, or now dealing with internet that is prohibitively expensive. I look forward to seeing what we talk about here in this panel. So, Jen, do we have the poll results back. There we go. A lot of librarians here today glad to see it. But I'm also glad to see the course I'm glad to see the community members showing up here as well and we're going to have opportunities for everybody to ask questions as we go throughout this. So I'm sure that there's going to be lots of questions about about the research that has gone on that has gone into this that Dr. Tom was just referencing as well as information from the librarians about the things that libraries are doing to try to bridge that gap. So let's start the next part of our program. Leak and Claudia, if you would be willing to give us a summary of the paper and your key findings in there, in particular I'm interested in the vital information concept, but if you could share that with us. I think you can open that. Okay, thank you. All right, so I will begin by explaining in a very simple way what is digital divide or digital inequality. The digital divide or digital gap refers to people who are excluded from internet access or adequate internet access. For research though we prefer to call it or use the term digital inequality, because we find it more explanatory of the social causes and consequences of the inadequate internet access. But what do we mean when we say adequate or inadequate internet access well, internet access for people who haven't like researched and go depth into it. To tell you is not merely the physical availability of internet. There are multiple levels of accessibility and of the quality of the internet that will determine the adequacy or the equity in internet use through the literature review. On this matter we found that usual three levels that are studied in which accessibility and inequity are measured are the first level of course is the physical availability of internet that refers to the infrastructure, the hardware and software. The haves versus the have nots, the ones that have or have not this level of access. The second level refers to the internet skills or literacy needed for the useful for its useful usage. This refers to operational skills, technical skills, navigational skills, cognitive creative and social skills to be able to use the devices as well as the software, the interfaces, gadgets. And content discrimination abilities and the third level. It's the inequality in the outcomes or productivity from the internet usage. This last one I would like you to keep in mind because additional to our research in our paper we propose as you already said a concept or framework vital internet use that is tied to this particular level of internet accessibility measurement. And so how did we conduct this study and why digital inequality. As we know now is more acute in the rural areas of the country like the Appalachian region. According to the 2015 US census nearly one third of Ohioans in rural counties do not have broadband internet access. Also according to the 2016 Broadband Provers Report from the FCC close to 39% of Americans, especially in rural areas still lack access to high speed internet access. And this is also a very important issue because it's not only about having the access but what quality of access allows you to access high quality data graphics videos and other services. So we wanted to explore the digital inequalities in the hills of the Appalachia area of Southeast Ohio, how internet access and digital skills impact the online contribution to the community and to the individuals in terms of services and resources that are considered to be vital social needs. And these are as we identify them health, employment, education, social media, and of course government services. This group of social needs is that what we call the vital internet use. For the methods we use a random accidental sampling technique in which we will approach the participants that were coming in or leaving, especially the libraries, those the libraries at the primary locations because of what has been said already because they are the, they have been instrumental to the bridging the gap, the access gap, offering computers and internet use. So this was the best place we could find to go survey people with with a paper survey. For purposes of diversity, we also included other public resources like the farmers market in Athens County, and also we went to the community center in Athens County and to a supermarket in Perry County. And in total we sample this study in seven Appalachian counties of Southeast Ohio, Athens, Hawkins, Mates, Morgan, Washington, Perry and Monroe County. And the survey was like I said a paper questionnaire with 30 questions. It was pretty long. I was a minister in the presence of us, the data collectors, and it was returned immediately to us by the participants or not so immediately because it took some time to fill it out probably like more than 10 minutes. The survey included questions about demographics, internet access, digital literacy and skills of the participants among others, and the total of participants was about 200. Also I should say that there are different clusters of internet use analysis. For example, one of these clusters is comprised of information seeking news, information seeking news, personal development, leisure, commerce and transactions, social interactions, networking and gaming. But for our investigation, we decided to explore the cluster that we identify like I already said as vital internet use that is related to basic social needs. Acknowledging how internet and the ability to use it effectively has become so important for a person or an individual or a collective or a group in its economic and political or social well-being. So we classified the vital internet use factors into four major classifications, three major classifications according to the degree of the necessity to the individual. The first one is well-being needs such as health, the second knowledge or learning needs such as formal and informal education, and the third one was economic needs such as job search, employment, even trade or banking services. And the fourth one was information and social connectivity needs such as social media use. And we added the social media use because we thought that nowadays a lot of, not only a lot of information, it's spread through the social media and it could be vital information as we are seeing now with the pandemic. But also because it's a stage where civil rights and citizens rights are also, they also take a stance there and they can participate and exercise their rights in these platforms. Quickly I will go through this form relating then to the appellation so that you can see why we chose this. In health the appellation region is specially prone to negative effects of diseases such as obesity, heart disease, smoking, cancer and physical inactivity. A report by the Appellation Region Commission indicated that the appellation region's mortality rate due to heart disease, for example, was 17% higher than the national rate. And that's due to lung disease where 27% higher than the national rate. This was a study in 2017. As far as education in the Appellation Region, education levels trail behind the US national average according to the Appellation Region Commission, 52.2% of adults ages 25 to 44 in Appellation, Ohio have some type of post secondary education compared to 63.3% in the nation as a whole and 65.3% in non Appellation, Ohio. As far as job search, commonly known this region as the cold country, we all know that residents in the Appellation Region have historically lacked employment opportunities or diversity in employment opportunities and this has derived in higher levels of unemployment, also lower levels of income compared to the national average. And internet access has been found to be correlated with this economic participation, which includes finding jobs via internet or buying or selling products, but especially during this pandemic we've seen how even to apply for unemployment, how vital internet was shown to be. And social media, like I said, was included in the vital internet usage in terms of political participation and access. And also, in terms of critical, in terms of civic engagement, there's a study that was made in 2015 involving 400 American high school students that participated in a media literacy program and they demonstrated higher levels of civic engagement and had substantially higher levels of media knowledge of news analysis and advertising skills after this literacy program. So it also impacts the social media and the way it's used, it impacts on the quality of the information and the civic exercising of the user. Three ways in which, I will end with this really quick, three ways in which I just wanted to say how vital internet use has been validated lately during this pandemic. As physical services and interactions were impossible were prohibited or were too dangerous and we have seen how more than ever internet access quality of the access the skills and the literacy impacts on the use and how this all will benefit more or less the citizens. In social media, as I said, spread of information, valid or fake information, also the means of expression and participation in terms of civil and political rights, like the Black Lives Matter movement, information about COVID, true information, fake information, and discrimination among those. In the job situation, like I said, the file for unemployment and also the job search because you can even try going to the websites of the different places to try to look for a job instead of going door to door or calling, which nowadays we know will take a call for that, probably. As far as education and this is my last topic and I wanted to say it last because I find that something very interesting happened here in Athens with the education and bridging part of the gap of the internet inequality. Well, when the pandemic started, the superintendent for the Athens City Schools Tom Gates was faced with the dilemma that most of the planet was faced that was to resume classes remotely. But the problem, of course, was more acute here because of the historical internet gap that we are talking about in Southeast Ohio, where in Athens County, for example, currently 19.6% of households still do not have a broadband internet service according to the US Census. So what he did was very interesting back in March 2020. He did a hybrid survey online and then phone and even door to door for those who had not responded because they didn't have access to online. And asking who needed a laptop and internet connection, which households with students needed laptop and internet connection. So he found that out of 2600 students, 1900 needed a laptop and out of 2600 students, more than 350 in 270 houses did not have internet or good enough internet. So he supplied them with both laptops and a device called Metro smart hotspot that connects to the internet signal. So for the first time, many families in this area were are having access to the internet in their home because it was not only for the students but for the whole family. So at least this was a way of bridging this first part of the first level of the inequity the access one. And even though there were 17 households where did not have access because of their location geographically, and they will be provided printed assignments while the internet company tries to fix that. But I just wanted to leave and with that idea because as we can see the vital internet use now in in a context where physical interactions are so risky becomes even more than ever. Very vital resource that everyone in this country and everywhere should have access to guarantee so that they can have the same opportunities of bettering their their qualities of life and of advancement in their path of life and their hopes and their dreams. Thank you. Thank you very much for that overview. And that certainly matches our experience in the local libraries as we were going into COVID times. The one of the most significant statistics to me from our time during the closure was that our branches in Gloucester and in the planes. Gloucester has very poor access to the internet in their area. The planes has a fairly high level of economic challenges. And at both of those libraries are Wi-Fi usage basically did not go down at all during the closure. So people were still coming to the library to make use of the library's Wi-Fi in there. Would it be okay if I add a few things here. Yeah, just to cause you for just one second though. I forgot to mention that we did want to send out a poll to everybody to find out how you are participants access the internet. So hopefully I didn't catch off guard there Jen. Yeah, thank you. So if you all could go ahead and fill out that poll and go ahead. Go ahead, like you can. Okay, so just to provide a little bit more context to what Claudia was mentioning and she really summed it up very nicely. But I'd like to add a few things here. For our non-academic friends in the audience, especially when we are trying to parse out the different levels of digital divide. So first and foremost, the digital divide research has been going on for a few decades. Beginning with the access divide. So we were actually or researchers were mainly concerned with providing internet access to places that did not happen. And this is a very important consideration from an economic justice point of view, just as people can have internet access in one area. Others also should be no matter where they live have access to those opportunities and we can appreciate why that is important, especially in the post COVID era that we're living in. If somebody does not have internet access due to whatever reasons. In terms of their location or the the internet company not being providing not providing the services there just because they live live too far off in the country. Then we can imagine what that would lead to those people are going to be left out from just about everything. Whereas we now the session itself is taking place through internet access and if we didn't have that we wouldn't be participating as simple as that research after that in the decades following access research moved on to the digital skills. And people were wondering what kind of skills do we need for people to have so that they can participate effectively. And that led to a lot of studies in which people were concerned with areas such as can they participate, can they write comments, let's say, are they able to access health related information when they need to and stuff like that. But we were facing a very interesting conundrum when we started working on the research in the in the Athens and the surrounding counties. And the problem that we were facing was that there are these pockets of areas that do not have access at all, we should have happened way back. And we're still wondering, because the research had moved on. And then the latest research that is very interesting talks about not only access, not only skills, but most importantly, how are people going to participate. And that is what led to the rise of this very important concept, vital internet use. Because if we are able to parse out what is it that we want online. And then there was research that said that people from economically disadvantaged communities and that was very resonating with what we found in Michigan as well and other parts of the country, that those people who are from minorities, or those people who are let's say first generation students were, were the most affected ones because they were not able to not only participate even when they got the internet they did not have the skills. And then they were wasting time on the internet. Now this could be a very relative thing of how we define time wasting, because a lot of entertainment can't be considered time wasting and time and misuse of the broadband internet speeds that we have. But really a lot of times we are gaining information from, from, from internet. We're trying to produce information when we're telling people what to do let's say in the form of comments under YouTube videos on Facebook on Twitter. Our participation really matters. And I would like to introduce a very important concept for everybody here. And that is related to engagement online engagement and participation. So that can be split into active engagement and passive engagement. Now this is an extension of what we're talking about here are people able to participate. Now this is a very important question. How many of us are able to write a cohesive argument on the internet. So that's that's something we need to instill at a very young age in the schools and there talks about how this can be taking place through maybe through libraries. There can be certain programs that can help people do that. And a related thing to that would be home internet use. So our focus was on home internet use. But by extension of what we were talking about, if somebody did not have home internet use then when what's the next best thing that would be your public library. Now the public library internet is really, really important. But at times what we found in Michigan, and maybe it could be true for other parts of the country was that there might be a shortage of terminals. So if a lot of people are coming at a particular time, then they do not have space to sit on those computers and do something with what they want to do. And they might miss out. So digital inequalities can be of various forms. They can come emerge in so many different ways. Not only access, not only skills, but what are you actually doing with the internet that you get. So this pretty much sums up why we did this research and what is this going to lead to and what questions does this raise in our minds so that we can explore them further. Thank you. And that's a that's an excellent point about that, you know, it's great that public libraries have the access that we do, but then being able to access what's in the library is hugely important in Ohio we are very, very fortunate to have a long history of well funded libraries and that has given us a great deal of strength in libraries in our state but in other states where there is not that statewide funding of libraries you can have vast differences between major metropolitan centers in the more rural communities so that that can have a huge impact. I'd like to throw this now over to the to the other folks on the panel here. And let's go ahead and start with Jan and Amy. In particular, in your role as parents, I'm kind of curious, given what Claudio is saying about the sudden jarring shift that we had, both how that went for you but also what what you know from your fellow parents and also what what you know from your role as early childhood educators. I'll let you start. Okay, I think my story as a parent and person transitioning to working online is a good illustration. I don't live in the hills per se. I live three miles from Athens. My children are they were in kindergarten and fourth grade. And when we made the transition we took the survey that Dr. Gibbs sent out and said that we thought we had adequate internet access we pay, you know, a hefty sum as shall be referenced for our frontier access each month. We also have cell phones and our kids have iPads. So we said, you know, we think they have devices that should be adequate for this experience. Well, I will share that when the survey has come again for the fall as we know that we're going to spend the first nine weeks at least online. We have asked for a wifi device and for computers because I don't think that we anticipated or realized exactly how strained our internet would become. We spent hours and hours in parking lots such as the one at the library, which is a nice quiet parking lot if you've been to the Athens Public Library. There were some parking lots on campus that were a little louder with construction. And as the situation improved, we did get out of our cars and spend time on benches at a maritime park in town. But we spent weeks without internet. There was an issue with the service down the road. And every time the power would blink, which it does around here fairly frequently, we every week or every two weeks. The internet would go down and a technician would have to come out and reset the internet. And sometimes that took up to two weeks I think 10 days may have been the longest period of time that we didn't have internet. When we went to our regular bill, we added wifi on our phones so we could have hotspots, but then we're sharing those with our children while they're doing their work on their iPads. There were times when just the stress of figuring out how to manage all of that was more than any of the tasks that we had to do in the day. So we were very grateful for the library's services. And I think it definitely opened my eyes to how difficult it is, not just for us but in this entire region. For some people there's there are no options. So I feel thankful that we had the resources that we did to get through that. I'll add to that really quickly that you were not alone in that because we did have reports from both the Athens library and the Plains Library which are in Athens City Schools of parents who were very clearly sitting in the parking lot working on stuff with their kids. So you weren't the only one who discovered that. And I also feel a little bit sheepish because going into the lockdown we discovered we didn't realize this up until that point that the wifi signal at the Athens library did not carry through to the parking lot. And so we had the Jerry Riga solution during the lockdown and we're working on a permanent solution now. Thanks. Go ahead, Jan. Very similar situation. I live in the Plains and we thought we had high speed internet access that would would have been fine for what we were doing. I found myself very quickly thrown into a tech facilitator position that I am not qualified to be in at all. When my daughter doing her seventh grade things would be online at the same time that I was trying to zoom with a class of second graders which is a whole other experience and a whole another conversation to have. My computer screen would freeze and I couldn't access or people would cut in or cut out and then on the weeks that my husband who works the health department would be working from home and all three of us were trying to access it we learned very quickly that it was not going to happen. I know I had several phone call conversations with parents that hadn't had access before and now had a hotspot, but they didn't know how to use that hotspot and how to access zoom and so it was going to people's houses in my mask and social systems and I was trying to talk to them about how to log on to zoom and how to have their child check their email from home with their Chromebook that they now have at home that they haven't had before. So lots of lots of unanticipated difficulties, I think that had to be ironed out fairly quickly. I had students sitting in the school parking lots accessing the internet that way as well as going to the libraries to access it so I think it was a very sharp learning curve that we all had to try to navigate very quickly and I am also in the same position where I realized for this fall we're going to need more we're going to need better to be able to do this adequately. Yeah, it was it was definitely an experience so I am. I'm hopeful that the fall will be much smoother than what the spring was. Had you mentioned that about the the helping people figure out how to get on and that that certainly matches with what we can Claudia we're talking about about understanding how to use the equipment. We have only just at the Athens library started diving into trying to figure out ways to provide remote help. And so I thought I'd kick that over to Austin because he was involved in some of the early stages of getting that started and. But Austin also obviously feel free to talk about your experiences over the last year or two, working with people in this area helping them figure out how to how to use the equipment. There we go. Okay, so yeah, I unfortunately I don't think I can speak a whole lot to the remote situation just because I worked on it for so brief of a time a lot of my remote tutoring sessions were mostly over the phone, which I guess does count as remote Zoom calls we tried working a few zoom calls with different patrons and those were met with mixed success. Some people had no problem. Setting up zoom and getting a call connected they had used it before for work or for communicating with family. I know a lot of people had just all over have become very acquainted with zoom in the last few months so that's helpful but there's still people who either don't have the internet access don't have the required hardware to run a zoom call, or they don't feel like it's something that they want to fully invest their time in at the moment but so I did a lot of phone calls talking with people trying to duplicate what they were seeing on their computer on my own computer. I get very good at both improvising and imagining over the last couple of months trying to do tech help over the phone, but yeah in a broader sense. I'm really glad body and like like brought up their three levels of digital access and let me go back over to my notes because I have a horrible memory. Yeah, like the digital access, what to look for, how to be productive. All of those I feel build on to each other that's been my experience working with people, especially physical access to the technology itself. Those people have a greater ability to practice at home and on their own free time because just like any other skill digital skills require a lot of practice a lot of trial and error. So that if they don't have access to that technology at home, especially if they're people who are relying on the internet to access computers or access the internet. They are limited to learning on a schedule that allows them to visit the library, which isn't always the most convenient for a lot of people. So their learning is greatly hindered compared to people who have computers at home or have reliable internet at home. I have a great example of that I had a long time patron who actually followed me from the mags library down here to Athens whenever I moved. He was an older fellow in his mid to late 80s he was a regular patron I met with him. Just about once a week every week for three years, and we would meet and once an hour just one hour a week. We would work on basic skills, we would go over some of the digital chores he would have to do like checking on insurance checking on medicine, keeping up with medical reports. All the basic skills that had or skills and chores that had moved on to the internet. We would go through those and keep a skill sharp there but he also had a computer at home and internet access at home that allowed him to check in on those things at home on his own time. So he could practice in between those weekly sessions and keep his skills sharp. If he did need help at home he would be able to contact me while I was at work and, again, over the phone we could work through some of his problems he would describe what he was seeing I could try and talk him through it, explain what he was looking at. And I really was able to see a great change in him from when I started working with him three years ago to towards the end of our meetings where he could not only troubleshoot his own problems. But he could explain and teach certain skills to some of his friends. I know there were times when he would come in one week and say that he was talking with one of his older friends and he would explain how to copy and paste things for things that he would see on the internet he could put into a Word document and print off. And it sounds like such a small thing to someone who is very used to working on the internet, somebody who would consider themselves a more advanced user. But that is such a great leap for someone who just a couple years ago would not be able to do that skill on their own without having someone help walk them through it to be able to go from that beginner level to being able to show his friends how to do that is just unbelievable. And that comes with that consistent access that's something that they can work on at home and the people who don't for one reason or another have access to computers or internet at home, their practice abilities are limited. They're limited when they can try those skills those skills take much longer to develop and gel and just in general that inconsistent physical access ends up in just a poor quality learning for that individual person so that's a greater just a greater prevalence of greater access to computers tablets reliable internet can really help a digital beginner quickly run up through the ranks and learn new skills just because they have that that ability to practice on their own. Yeah, and I also know from my own career history that that moment of realizing that you have helped that person make that leap is there's nothing like it that's why that's why we're librarians. This is what kept me on you have to hear it. But going back to what you were saying about needing that consistent access that's a great segue to go over to Shelby. Because Shelby I know that you've got stories to tell about lack of access but I also know how phenomenal you are with technology so I'd love to hear your perspective on that and also how you how you develop the skills that you did in that environment. Yeah, I'm growing up in the planes my grandparents had dial up internet for about pretty much forever I don't actually recall when they switched to proper internet because I was away at college at the time. But, yeah, regarding. I suppose first lack of access when I first moved out to this house that I was in here. I during this discussion here I've come to realize that every job I've had so far has been thanks to the library. As I applied for my very first job out of college in the planes library parking lot. I worked for a while as a freelance illustrator with clients online and a lot of the time when you send the final product I sent it from the planes parking lot the planes libraries parking lot. And up until when I applied for the job that I have now at the Athens library I drafted up and sent that application in the planes libraries parking lot. Which was immensely frustrating while it was great to have access to that through them it meant that just about every trip that could have been maybe five minutes done at home, took maybe half an hour or so to get done. And it becomes really difficult to kind of fit that into your schedule, especially when you start working full time or when you have other obligations that you need to meet throughout the day. And I believe that the lack of know how of how of how you use that technology has come up now during COVID because my younger siblings are both in school. And they had done a lot of their schoolwork at my grandparents house and they showed up with all of the necessary items and my grandparents had to call me down like pretty much daily for a week or two to go down and actually help them create that and submit their schoolwork and stuff like that, which I was actually quite grateful the library was closed at the time because that was the only way that I was able to do any of that. Thank you. Can I jump in here. I think you make a really nice point Shelby about the convenience factor, how much easier it is, and what an inconvenience it is to have to travel to do something. On the day I was doing long days in parking lots, like hours and hours and hours, and it's incredibly uncomfortable I mean I got a shoulder injury from sitting in my car using a laptop in a way that it's not intended to be used. I think I am a pretty motivated individual, you know I would never, I would never call my employer and say I can't do my job I don't have internet I will find out I will hunt down the internet and make it happen but I don't think that we can take for granted that people have the motivation to do that or the ability to do it. I mean I just get in my car you know like my big complain is it's a little bit uncomfortable but not everyone has access to a car to get to the library to use the computer and it may just be comfortable with it to go through all of those steps and feel all that inconvenience and get your shoulder injury and whatnot as you're working in a parking lot so I just wanted to kind of build on what you said there. Thank you for that. That's one of the reasons why libraries in general Athens library in particular we're trying to find additional outlets to provide the internet we're trying to find more and innovative ways to to get the equipment out to people. So we're looking to start here locally we already have community Wi Fi hotspots and aims in Amesville in new March field where we don't have a branch. We're looking to expand on that. And we also will be bringing back the book mobile by the end of this year and that will have internet access and computer equipment on board so my main challenge there has always been that we're we're just plugging the little holes in the dam we're not really fixing the dam itself. That's why we're here tonight to talk about that. So with that. Yeah. Sorry, I would also like to mention, particularly working as circulation staff since we've gotten our fleet of mobile hotspots. I truly don't think I've seen a commodity more clamored for that we've been able to provide than the ability to take the internet and bring it home with you and that's just mobile internet. Yeah, absolutely. And we're grateful that we're able to offer that and that's another program that we're trying to expand we're working on grants to be able to expand that service as well. So Nick, if I can quickly add a very important point here. And this is in relation to what Austin was just talking about. He gave a classic example of how he was able to guide over a period of time and build certain matrices in individuals were visiting the libraries. So when you read the research study that we did, you might see a seemingly conflicting situation when we talk about the importance of home internet versus the library internet. But I don't see that way. Actually, this would be, we've been actually thinking about extending our research to talk about how does the media literacy and the participation gap that we were talking about actually Manifest itself and most importantly, how do we build those skills and the way we can build those skills are yes through online education but there are times. It's again a problem then if you are not able to go online and participate and gain access to those resources where do we go. So the best starting point for that would be public libraries where they can go and be guided into and those skills could be built in those places. And that's, that's a great start home internet. Yes, is very important from our research, but then those skills where do they come from they come from the public library so that's that's the very important piece that we'd like to highlight in our future research. Yeah, absolutely. And something that I've said to colleagues for a very long time. And in presentations like this is I would love to get out of the business of just having to get the equipment in front of people I would love to be able to transition the resources that we have into the education piece of it into the training piece of it into truly leveling that playing field but right now so much of our infrastructure and so much of our resources needs to needs to go towards just even providing the access to begin with and and if access was universal then we could focus our resources on on the educational aspect of it. So now I would like to go ahead and get the poll results from the poll that we did there before, and it looks like most of our viewers are getting their home internet connection. Just a few of you picking it up by a cell signal, which is not too surprising to me given the fact that we're all here on zoom. One of an interesting aside about that is that we had several people who expressed interest in viewing the program at our several of our branches out in the county outside of Athens City, and they were not going to be able to tune in live because they get their internet access from the library and our branches are closed right now so a little bit of irony there. So I think that we can go ahead and open it up for questions now. And I see that we've got a couple of things going on in the chat here. So while we work on the questions. I just wanted to quickly see what was going on in the chat here. Kelly to your point. It depends on Kelly asks the government funding or policy decision makers take issues related to digital digital inequity seriously, or believe that it is something worthy of their time and attention. And in my experience and I'd love to hear what the rest of the panel has to say about this. I think it depends on the on the government official or lawmaker I've now spoken with two fc seek commissioners who both are taking the issue very very seriously but I know that there are others on the commission who may not be quite as much or might have a different approach to it. And then similarly I've had interesting discussions with some lawmakers about this, but I also know from reading the news that there are other lawmakers who don't so go ahead and to the panel who'd be interested in speaking to that would be great. I want to say that quickly that we're doing this research. I remember. We looked into, there's an NGO that is very active here in, in, in Ohio for trying to get internet. Quality internet for Ohioans. And I remember some interviews on the media to the representatives and they were talking about how difficult it was in terms of trying to get, for instance, private companies to invest in infrastructure due to the high costs of the geography. And that's a big, big, big obstacle that investors are not willing to commit for because not only it costs a lot more than if it was the infrastructure is deployed in a plane terrain, but also because of the little usage that it has in the area that people, a lot of people are not really, do not really see it worth it to spend so much money monthly, you know, $40, $50 for a service. They don't really, they can't really see how much more it's going to improve their lives. And especially because of the, you know, the economic situation of most of the region, then that, you know, $40 or $50 a month, it's, it's, it's a lot for, for a low income budget. So I remember this NGO, I can't remember the name right now, let's kind of look it up, but they, I think they're connect Ohio or something like that, right. So they were, they were trying to look into ways of luring investors to invest in other companies, the internet companies to invest with some help from the, I think it was from the, not the federal government, but the state government. So I'm not sure I haven't looked into it, what's the status of that right now, but that was a big, a big obstacle and well, at least there were people trying to work it out. Yeah, there's a lot going on and there's, there's a statewide broadband Ohio plan that's in the works right now on the state level. And I know some of the legislators who were involved with it feel very passionately about it and, and as I finished talking I remembered of course that Senators Portman and Brown work together on a broadband initiative that's currently working its way on the federal level. So there is stuff happening. I know we all wish it would be more and more quickly. I have a question from Annie Bowen asking to the hotspots work in all areas of Appalachia. I'm going to guess that that means the Wi-Fi hotspots, and that actually is a major gap. The Wi-Fi hotspots that the Athens library loans are sprint hotspots. And so they only cover about two thirds of our county. And that's probably generous on the on the fringes of those signals they probably don't draw enough signal to be able to be effective. So one of the major issues we have up in Gloucester is that our Wi-Fi hotspots don't work up there. So Wi-Fi hotspots are definitely not the end all solution. They certainly help a lot of people and I'm glad we're able to offer it, but they still leave a lot of people in the dark. I don't know if anybody else on the panel wanted to add anything to that. Just a quick, just because I have the experience of the story I did of the Athens school district and I had the remember that Tom Gipps stressed that out of the 270 households that they surveyed, I'm sorry, out of the, yeah. So from the 270 household that they asserted with the hotspot, there were 17 that were not able to use the hotspots because of their location and the geography again. So they made it impossible for the connection, the signal to get through to where they were located. So I don't know, he said that he was having the internet company working on those, but I don't know, you know, what that entails like how, how are you going to, you know, that signal go through the geography that it's inaccessible right now. But yeah, so there's, there was any possibility there with some small portion of them. Nick, I also know a personal case that I know personally. There's a place right outside Albany where I used to go to a farm. And I know as a fact, I just knew it from somebody else who told me about this farm, just for organic stuff. And, and this, this lady who, who owned that farm said that she wish that there were some cell phone signals because there weren't any she had to go up the hill, just to get one bar on the phone. It's a little challenge because if she had internet or some degree of internet, she would be able to better sell her stuff to a lot more consumers, but she wasn't able to. So there is a very big economic impact as well. And this is just right outside Albany. You can imagine like there might be so many more areas that do not get reliable signals. Oh, I'm sorry. I recently listened in or watched a conversation on Facebook in an Amesville group about internet. There's a movement there to incorporate Ames Township, knowing what we're headed into into the fall. Because so many people don't have access to any sort of internet. There were people in the conversation who were sharing that they pay over $100 a month for satellite internet, which is not reliable at all. It's incredibly slow and doesn't function well for them, but they have to have it for work. But I think the need for government participation in building those networks has become evident to the people in that group. They have realized that the companies don't see enough economic benefit to invest in building the infrastructure so they they're trying to take it upon themselves to incorporate the township and get that infrastructure built so that they can have access to internet. So everybody can. Absolutely. And I've totally lost the other thing I was going to say, but that's totally fine. I'm sure it wasn't important. We have our other technology trainer from the Athens library here and she shares that one of the greater challenges I'm encountering for providing remote technology training is not only a knowledge gap but a gap in understanding common operating system and internet browser terminology. And she goes on to describe how that experience has been for her. So that certainly speaks to the gap that you were talking about in your research there, but I think that the broader point here is that even in terms of understanding how to use the equipment. There's there's even more that you have to go into to understand, you know, like what is a browser and what is a mouse and what does what is a URL and other things like that. There's so much that has been built up around this technology that somebody who doesn't participate in it, and who's excluded from it just isn't going to know. So I don't know if you wanted to add anything to that or anybody else on the panel. Yes, and actually that's related to another question that just came up related to digital literacy being related to age. Yes, there is certainly that the more experienced we are with the internet and that happens to be because we might be from a generation that has been more acquainted, or had spent more time using the internet so we do have an advantage over them. And then compared to those who are from an age older age group. But then there is another issue here which we we not pay attention to those people who are outside those signals that do not get a chance to practice those internet skills and it. The more time so we research shows that the more time people have been using the internet the better they get at get at it and the more resources they're able to summon to their advantage. Go ahead. Yeah, I could just for. So yeah, speaking to trying to find the correct terminology and how to get that across to people who are just starting out or who are just starting on a specific field of digital literacy. It is one of the biggest surprises that came to me whenever I first started training, which is just how do you explain to somebody. What a mouse cursor is or what purpose it serves or how a left click works differently from a right click and what difference that makes and how you use the computer, and you really for some people have to break even simple actions to their most basic steps just to try and make sure that you're not skipping over some crucial link that could result in the difference between them understanding what they're doing and how to do it. And just getting completely lost a few steps in and then that digital literacy to an age gap if I could just talk about that real quick there is. I have I've seen a lot of my learners have definitely been older adults, but I have seen, especially with younger kids that they do know how to operate computers and how to operate cell phones, but it's very limited to certain skills like they they'll know how to get onto the internet they'll know how to operate the basic hardware how to find games a lot of games, but it's when it comes to maybe trying to set up word or fix basic problems they're still just like any of my other learners they are just as in need of teaching it's it's there it's they do have that further start the further long starting point but it's still they do run into these issues just the same as anybody else that I've worked with. So again, that just comes from not having the ability to experience those issues and work through them on a regular basis. Thank you. I'd like to jump down there's a question for Jan. What experiences that it's seen your students and their families were having in the spring to do yourself experience animosity from people who had trouble with either access in terms of internet service or access in terms of not being familiar with the technology that you were using, for example, Google Classroom. So I wouldn't say that there was necessarily animosity that there was definitely frustration. And that came across. You know, like I said, there were parents who hadn't had internet access and didn't have Chromebooks and here they are with these things for the first time and their second grader is supposed to be zooming with their teacher and their class and their second teacher freaking out because they're missing the zoom but the mom doesn't know how to get her, you know, child on the call and it's a lot of frustration with that. Um, so basically I tried to find any way that I could to communicate with them and talk them through everything that we needed to do so sometimes it was Facebook Messenger. Sometimes it was let me call you on the phone. Let me text with you. Let's do I'll make a video for you and send it to your phone. I will come to your house and stand outside on your porch and have my Chromebook and hold it up and show you how to do it because Luckily, at that point in the spring, my second graders had been using Chromebooks throughout the year so they did know how to access their email and they did know how to use Google Docs. Which was great because we were using that Google classroom platform. I'm a little concerned thinking about the fall since we haven't had that time together to teach them already those steps in person and they haven't gotten to practice that how that's going to look to teach that through zoom to teach them how to access their emails and to use their Google Docs. I know that I know I had people that were living I had a family that lived in the Fedhawk district and she's like we are so far away and I work all day and I can't get on at these times and even when I can get on my access is bad. So all of those frustrations but I feel like I know that I was and I know most of the other teachers that I talked to were like we are going to be extremely flexible and we're going to do whatever we have to do to make this work because everybody is feeling this these challenges with technology and access and accessibility, and the parents comfort level and knowledge with the different platforms that we were using were all over the place. I took, it was a lot of patients, it was a lot of flexibility for all of us. But I wouldn't say I didn't. Luckily, there wasn't anger there wasn't animosity, it was just a lot of conversations, a lot of conversations had to be had whether that was in person or whether that was over the phone or whether that was little videos being sent back and forth whatever we could do with that conversation going to help them so that nobody felt that they were being left behind, which I feel like was the biggest point we did not want to leave anybody behind and we were doing whatever we had to do to make sure that didn't happen. And the build off of that. It's interesting because I certainly along with everybody else saw the many comments and social media people complaining about the situation that they were thrust into. But every single educator I know their story matches yours. The one that immediately came to mind was a friend of mine in Columbus who teaches at risk kids. They wind up in his class because they have behavior problems and many of them come from poor backgrounds and all that. When everything shut down in Columbus, he was going around to their houses to drop off Chromebooks for them. So, I mean I hear many many many stories of educators exactly like that working through it side by side with the families and so thank you for doing that. I did want to go back up to the question that Neil had, because I was also intrigued by this way of your mention of research on digital literacy and digital access furthering civic engagement and civic competencies to see if anybody else on the panel is aware of anybody who's deliberately trying to connect the civic engagement with this online use and technologies. I, a few years ago at an Ohio Library Council convention, I saw a company that was doing something like this. They were building an online civic platform, but I'd have to look up the details of it. But does anybody else aware of this or Dr. Conn if you'd like to speak some more to that point. Okay, well, so Nick, are you, we're referring to the, if you could repeat your point about the, or Neil said I'm very intrigued by Dr. Conn's mention of research on digital literacy and digital access furthering civic engagement and civic competencies. And is anyone aware of any K through 12 efforts that intentionally wed those two concepts. I can think of something at the top of my head. At this point, that would web K to 12 efforts, but I would like to mention that digital literacy again is a very evolving concept so a lot of times, people have been studying what it really means to be digitally literate, because we're living in an age of, if I may say, misinformation. A lot of times we are having so much fake news coming our way, just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's true. This is a very important literacy, which I feel that the new research is really covering not only the ability to be to able to participate and communicate effectively, but also being able to decipher what is important and what is not important. What is true and what is not true. And this relates to another research that I published recently, which is about verifying information so that we can avoid fake news and we can avoid misinformation. There was a model that was developed and it talked about how we can just by having the right attitude and that attitude basically sums up into taking a step back and not sharing everything that comes our way because the internet really functions on this principle that people start sharing things right instantly without even verifying. You'd be surprised to know that there was a statistic that talked about that a majority of people, maybe like 80%, never read an article before they actually shared it on Twitter. That's really interesting. They just read the title of the paper, the article, and they did not read what the article actually said, and they just shared it. Now that's a very big problem in my opinion because we might, you know, a lot of these people who are spreading fake news on purpose, they've come up with titles that look so catchy and interesting and real. They also have websites that are looking very professional. But the content that they're spewing out is not true at all. It's not based on facts, it's not based on any research. So they are through some vested interest, sending out this information and we're so surprised to see how this information because of the power of social media and the internet spread so fast. And this is where I think in education, in various programs that we have at the academic level, there's already this realization that we need to impart digital literacy skills that could impact civic engagement. Now, if our civic engagement, you might have seen videos of town hall meetings about not wearing a mask. I'm not going to wear a mask because of so many reasons. Now those reasons may not have any backing in whatever they were saying. Just because somebody said that in some news articles that came their way, they are believing it, and they're resharing it. And they're so staunchly adamant that this is what it should be. They're denying science and this has been going on for so many years in so many areas, not just what we're seeing now in the COVID pandemic. And I'll just conclude with one very important thing. All this could be dealt with effectively at a very individual level. Yes, each person is responsible for not sharing misinformation and also not believing if it's not true. So that's the digital literacy we need to instill in our children, especially. But very important point that I would like to add here is out of all the research and reading I've done, I've come to a conclusion that sites like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube have a big responsibility that they're not living up to. While we need to step up as an individual, and that would be the most effective thing, but as human beings, we do not always step up. As human beings, we have this tendency, we do not spend the required time to read something and then try to understand what it's saying. Those sites that we rely on that have really sadly become the internet have a big responsibility to make sure that wrong information does not go out. I know that that is something that libraries are really struggling with is trying to figure out effective ways that we can play a role in helping people to navigate that information. When I was in library school, which is now 15 years ago, they talked about how the librarian was the last person that people usually asked and that was a fun joke in the classes at that time and now it's becoming unfortunately a matter of a matter of some importance, even more so than it was at that time. Yep, go ahead, Claudia. Yes, I just wanted to add because in our study, we have a couple of other research that I think trying to respond to the original question. There is one by Martins and Hobbs 2015 that involves 400 American high school students that after participating in media literacy program, they demonstrated higher levels of civic engagement. I'm going to put the link there in the chat. And there's another one I was going through while I was listening, SCARIC at all 2016. That one I'm not sure it's K-12 related, but it is a study that shows social media having a positive relationship with civic engagement and other forms of participation. So I'll add that to the chat. I'd also like to add, I did a little Googling while you were talking and did find that the Ohio Department of Education and Technology standards do have a strand that spans all grade levels that is entitled society and technology. So it's definitely, it's there, it's a concern, and it's been articulated in these standards. Great. Thank you all very much. Continuing down the chat box here, there's a comment from somebody at Integrate Athens, which is a division of the Athens County Board of Developmental Disabilities, just making a note that the challenges that their clients face are exacerbated by the challenges of access to the internet. We certainly do see many people in that category in the library, but there are many more who aren't able to get to the library and that is also a significant gap. I don't know if that was anything in particular that came up in your research, Lee Krakadia, but we can keep moving on since that was more of a comment. There's a good question here about apathy among the group where the digital inequities exist or if there was a desire for increased digital literacy. And I think that this is something that the librarians might have some input on as well, because we certainly have encountered people who in the library were like, I don't want to have anything to do with that stuff. But I would also be interested to hear from the researchers what you found, where there are those digital inequities, were there people who were like gung-ho to go out there and learn what they needed to learn, or were they more likely to just go, I don't want to deal with any of that stuff. So I guess just speaking as a librarian and one of the instructors, I feel like I might be in a unique position where I might not be experiencing a lot of apathy because the people who aren't interested in learning aren't going to come to me to learn because they don't want to learn. So I don't see a lot of apathy. What I did see was either frustration because they don't know what they need to know and they're coming for my services because they've got to know how to do something to participate in just basic society. A lot of, especially a lot of government organizations, all of their processes have moved to an online format. I know Social Security is a big one where people if they want to access Social Security information, they now can either wait several weeks for a paper form or they can go online and get it instantly, but going online requires creating an account with Social Security. So that requires an email account. So there's a frustration that they have to jump through all these hoops just to access what they think they should be able to receive pretty quickly, which rightfully so. There's also this frustration of why do I need one account to access another account and it's the case of trying to explain how completely independent all these systems are from each other and that's very rightfully so a source of frustration for a lot of people who just want to get on with their day because I do know people who don't have interest in technology and I respect that. I have those people in my own family. My dad does not have internet at his house. He only got a cell phone within the last five or six years. I'm going to embarrass my sister Casey, who's in on this call. She can agree with me. Our dad is very much not a technology driven person and it works for him. It works for a lot of the people that I work with in the library who don't have an interest in technology and they get along fine without it most of the time except for when they urgently need something and then that's where that frustration sets in and it's more just because they don't have an option to opt out of knowing those digital skills. Otherwise, I do see a lot of eagerness for people to learn the people who don't have access to these digital literacy skills right away. They want to learn. They want to know how to do these things. In a lot of cases they're excited by learning all this information. I can't count the number of times I have explained different concepts to people and they're just fascinated. They're excited. They're glad to know that they have access to this information and that it's not as intimidating as they might make it out to be and as a lot of society would make it out to be. So that's a lot of what I see from my point of view. From my point of view, ironically, I've kind of encountered a lot of the opposite working largely at the circulation desk where people kind of walked up to the computers and I've seen people like, you know, sit there and like, you know, cuss for a bit can't quite get what they're doing and then they'll just like leave. Or on the other hand, those people will approach me and just ask me to do it for them. And some of those people I've walked them through every single thing that I was doing step by step and they would come back a week later. Same exact thing. Hey, do this for me. I do understand the hesitation because a lot of it as we've mentioned several times before is what they want to do requires them to build on basic skills slightly more advanced skills several levels of skills that these people have never had the opportunity or the desire to kind of pursue. And even then like some folks who aren't particularly computer savvy or do you have that eagerness to learn may not necessarily have the ability to remember that information in a useful way. I have had people who have written down step by step everything that I've told them, including little drawings of the icons that I've asked them to hit and still when they're faced with it on their own they're not able to navigate those spaces well enough to accomplish whatever it is they needed to accomplish. Thank you. I saw a note here quickly that there's an Eastern Ohio they're going to try a pilot program taking remote or in person learning to senior centers and low income housing areas to teach the seniors, especially how to get a zoom call and so forth. We're actually working on something like that right here in Athens County with the Athens County public libraries and I see that person would like to coordinate with libraries in their region so please don't hesitate to send me an email after this and I can help you get started on that. We are four minutes over. There was one last question that we had here that I would like to hear some of the response to again this is from a serri Cornwell who's one of our technology trainers at the library. Asking if any information was collected in the research about how people felt about their individual technology skills and experience in my experience people who struggle with technology can have feelings of shame for not knowing how to do things and are hard on themselves or feel like they're asking stupid questions and wondering how much those feelings contribute to not asking for help. I particularly don't recall that we went into that detail or death but I did engage with some of us when collecting data will engage with some of the people and just you know talking to them informally and I remember specifically when we did the collection of data at the Athens market that some of the people would talk to no they didn't feel any shame at all they just felt that at the time this was 2017 or 2018 they didn't need it they didn't feel like they needed it as much they didn't really feel that it would make a lot of difference paying $50 a month so that much I recall but no in the research we didn't go into those details okay thank you and I think that that's a good place to wrap it up unless anybody on the panel has any closing thoughts or comments well thank you all very much for thanks to the panel for participating in this I think this was a great discussion I enjoyed it immensely for everybody who's on the call we will be this has been recorded and it will be posted later we're also going to save the chat and send out links that were put in the chat to everybody here so you have access to all of that information so thank you all very much for coming thanks to our organizers thanks to Alden library for and Ohio University libraries generally for putting this all together this has been great and hopefully we'll get to do it again sometime thank you thank you very much and thank you to all the organizers for this wonderful event I appreciate it