 Fyelch yn cyfweld i ymddangos cyfaint am y mynd, ymdillol, llwyr, lleol mewn mynd i ymddangos ymddangos ymddangos ymdillol, i ad homework ymddangos ar ei ddaol i'r Prifysig, i dweud am gilydd y trynny, i ddim yn ddiwrnodol i'r frysgffennu meddwl i gawr. Apolygiad hefyd yn ei dddangos i gyda'r Carlaw Jackson, a fyddwn i gwyllwch i fy ngomodedd ymdillol i ymddangos i'r Carlaw. Ar gwrs eich ysgol y byddai gynhymch yn ei fydd yw i ddefnyddio'i ar gyfer y cyfan. Gall gwrs eich ysgol y byddai gynhymch yn hefyd, fe i'n psychosu drictaill y Llywodraeth Cynllud yn dechrau blwydfaith i'r gaelgau, yn yn fawr mor gweithreun agoriaethol, y Com Roy, David Anderson a hynny, i gaelgau Gweithreun y Llywodraeth Cynllud y Llywodraeth i gynnig o gyda digon o swyddfaith i gyd-drinkol a ymgyrch ar gyfer Llywodraeth Cynllud. I would like to begin by inviting the cabinet secretary to make an opening statement. Thank you very much, convener, and thanks for the invitation to come along. I will concentrate first of all on the structural funds, but a few words at the end about the hubs issue that has been raised. European structural investment funds represent around one-third of the EU's annual budget, and they, as members will know, provide key support to the Scottish economy through the ERDF and European social fund programmes. Scotland has benefited from those programmes since joining the European Union, and the funding has supported projects right across Scotland, while contributing to our ambitions as set out in the programme for government. During the current programming period from 2014 to 2020, Scotland is scheduled to receive €944 million as part of the ESF and ERDF programmes. That investment has been designed to support smart, sustainable, inclusive growth in line with Scottish and European priorities. The European regional development programme is supporting innovative and potentially transformative projects through £33 million being awarded to the low-carbon transition infrastructure programme to support projects across Scotland. That will bring forward low-carbon demonstrator projects that aim to stimulate commercial interest and investment and to maximise Scotland's vast potential in the low-carbon sector, while contributing to positive progress in reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Another area where we are seeing exciting work is in relation to the Zero Waste Scotland programme, where £30 million has been provided to support the resource-efficient circular economy that stimulates new business activity, especially in the SMEs sector. That invests in SMEs that are helping to create the circular economy and includes cutting-edge projects that will develop new high-value markets. For example, I am sure that there is a bit of interest to Mr Locker in particular, we use whisky by-products, waste plastic and household furniture. Each of those will draw on further private investment that will accelerate their circular economy ambitions, create jobs in skilled jobs in urban and rural communities and contribute to our action on climate change. SME funding is focused on supporting SMEs that represent 95 per cent of all Scottish businesses helping to boost economic growth. The SME holding fund will give companies access to funding to help to transform their innovative ideas into economic success stories. It also aims to create 2,000 jobs that form a key plank of the Scottish growth scheme, supported by £50 million from EU funds. On top of all that, we have allocated £20 million grant to extending world-class digital connectivity to those parts of the highlands and islands that will not be served commercially or by existing public sector investment programmes with a particular focus on remote island communities. That will help to contribute towards the Scottish Government's national priority to deliver 100 per cent superfast broadband access by 2021. In relation to the European social fund, the work here is to support those most removed from the workplace by providing intensive support to help to remove the barriers that they face to entering sustainable employment or progressing into better employment. The projects approved to date are targeting those areas. As well as that traditional type of support, the social fund is also looking to support social inclusion and combat poverty and discrimination. Projects such as the Shetland Islands Council Fuel Poverty Service are working with the most disadvantaged individuals and households providing fuel poverty and support. Others are focusing on financial and debt advice, as well as access to childcare. The Scottish Government's aspiring communities fund will help to enable community bodies and third sector organisations in our most deprived and fragile communities to develop and deliver long-term local solutions that address local priorities and needs. That should increase active inclusion and build on the assets of local communities to reduce poverty and enable inclusive growth. £27.5 million has been awarded to the Developing Scotland's workforce initiative, providing funds to Skills Development Scotland and the Scottish Funding Council to support the delivery of higher-level qualifications aligned with the needs of growth industries and sectors in Scotland. That includes extending the modern apprenticeship programme, creating new links to sectors, including science, technology, engineering and mathematics, and creating a new work-based learning approach through foundation apprenticeships, where activity starts at school and uses a mixture of academic and work-based learning. Finally, the Youth Employment Initiative in the south-west of Scotland saw nearly £60 million committed to addressing the 25.8 per cent who, at that stage, were unemployed. Since the initiative was approved, the actions that the Government has taken, including the YE Youth Employment Initiative, have seen the youth unemployment rate fall to 12.7 per cent. That is more than a 50 per cent reduction, and substantially below that in the rest of the UK. It was, I think, the third lowest in the EU, now the sixth lowest, as other economies have been catching up. The Scottish Government allocated funding in two phases, allowing for a mid-term review to allow for changes in priorities or approach, and to date 203 operations—I know that that was the basis, I think, of the request to come to the committee—203 operations have been approved, with £395 million of grant committed to those operations. Based on current exchange rates—that is one of the big issues that we are wrestling with—that represents around 45 per cent of the programme. In taking into account match funding, that represents a very substantial investment at a time when public spending budgets are under pressure. The ERDF programmes will support 16,000 SMEs to grow, 750 enterprises introduce new products and 3,000 low-carbon resource efficiency and circular economy projects. While the ESF programmes will support 77,000 individuals with multiple barriers to employment, 15,000 disadvantaged people and 17,000 people with lower levels of skills. Her Majesty's Treasury has guaranteed EU funds to projects approved before the UK leaves the EU, while the Scottish Government has confirmed that we will pass on the current UK Government guarantees in full to Scottish stakeholders to provide stability and certainty for those key sectors of the Scottish economy. We still have no clarity from the UK Government on the operation of these guarantees following the date of Brexit. It is worth pointing out that, since last Friday, the speech that was made by the Prime Minister in Florence highlighted a potential two-year transition period. That might be good for other reasons, but it does increase the uncertainty and throws things substantially up in the air. I am seeking clarification urgently from the UK Government on what that means for European funding in order to bring around clarity for those who are currently involved in it. If I could convener to mention in relation to trade hubs that other committees are interested in, it is part of our programme to expand our presence in Europe. It is essential to protecting our place in Europe and we will continue to do what we can to protect our interests during the UK negotiations to leave the European Union. We have to continue to assist businesses to internationalise to help to boost our export performance and to continue to attract record amounts of inward investment. We have established innovation and investment hubs in Dublin, Brussels and London, and we are currently in the process of establishing hubs in Berlin and Paris. That will support the wider work across Government partners and businesses to support trade investment innovation and intergovernmental relations with Europe. Primarily, they will provide a platform for collaborative activity to increase exports and attract investment to Scotland. Each hub is different, tailored to the opportunities present in the market in which it is located, but it also covers broader economic opportunities such as the development of collaborations and research partnerships and work to support funding for innovation and research in Scotland. As I said to the SCDI yesterday, we cannot simply wait to get through the process of Brexit. We have to try to maximise the opportunities in the meantime. Thank you for the chance to make the opening statement. You have outlined some vital areas that those funds cover, such as foundation apprenticeships, youth unemployment, the circular economy and low-carbon technologies. What is going to fill the gap? What is going to replace those current programmes once they are finished? That goes to the point that I was just trying to make about trying to find out where Brexit is taking us, whether it is a transitional period. What the impact of the UK Government's guarantee is in funding through that transitional period. There is still uncertainty as to whether the transition period will happen, whether it will be for two years, whether it will be for four years and what the impact on European funding will be. Much of what we want to do to go to your question will depend on the available resources, and we do not have a clear picture on what those resources will currently be. However, there is an announcement by the UK Government on a shared prosperity fund, which we are assuming will be used for those purposes. However, again, there is very little clarity on that. Given that we are 18 months away potentially from exiting the EU, we really need to have clarity. We have asked the UK Government if we, the Scottish Government and the other devolved administrations can be involved in developing that fund. If it is going to be the vital measure by which we replace the European funding, then we have to know more about it and know it quite quickly. Have there been actual discussions with UK Government counterparts? For example, the recent discussions at ministerial level, have that touched on future frameworks for the funding of regional development programmes? That was carried out by the Deputy First Minister and Mike Russell, as you know, with Damian Green and David Mundell. That is centred on my understanding from having heard back from Mike Russell about the 111 areas that were talked about, which touch upon in those areas, but not in any great depth. It certainly did not provide any clarity on the discussions that took place on what the future direction would be of European funding or its potential replacements. Can I ask you, in terms of the funds at the moment that you are managing, what has been the impact of the falling value of the pound on those structural funds? Well, it is quite a complex impact. There have been two downsides to one upside it. If you think about the value of the pound and we could give you the details on, at the point of 2014, the change that has been in the value of the pound in relation to the Euro, it does really substantially present problems with how we profile the spend. If you suddenly have a larger amount of pounds to spend and you have to spend to the level of the Euros that were allocated in the first place, you have to try and change the programmes that are there to make sure that you get as much of the allocations as you can. However, changing the amount of the quantum available during the course of the six-year period does present difficulties. Maybe, if I could ask David Anderson to say a couple of words about that. When the funds were first started, the 940 million euros was worth about £750 million because of the change in the exchange rates. That is now worth around £870 million, so again, that increase. At one level, as the cabinet secretary said, that is at face value a good thing because there is more money available to us. Clearly, then, we have to look for schemes that can be match funded and we are currently doing a number of things, one of which is looking at changing the intervention rate, which is the level of match funding that we seek, particularly in the Highlands and Islands. We are looking to increase the amount of money that we can put in from structural funds up to around 70 per cent, which reduces the amount of money that match comes from the local authorities and the partners, so hopefully that will bring more schemes forward. The other aspect to it and the downside, as the cabinet secretary refers to, is that the spend profiles were set out in 2014 and set out in euros, so those have also gone up at the same time. The matter of trying to get the money spent is becoming challenging. It is a kind of two-sided coin. I would like to ask the cabinet secretary about underfunded or unclaimed allocations. Your letter to the convener this week says that on the 2017-2013 programme, there was a total of €740 million. The figures that we had from our predecessor committee five years ago were that the Scottish programmes were allocated €798 million. Does that mean that there has been a funding shortfall of £58 million, as it appears to? Allocation to Scottish programmes was not taken up by... Right. Yes, there were monies that were not taken up by that order. I have to give you the exact figures on that, which you can do. We will provide that to the committee. However, yes, that is the case. That does happen when the eligibility criteria are not met by some of the partners. It happens as well when the nature of the scheme over the six-year period changes. Also, there is a case that, as you know very well in the committee, we will know issues in terms of suspension of some programmes because the audit data was not provided in the form that was required by the EU, so a number of factors did contribute to that. It does happen. The shortfall, I think, I might not say and again I would check this, was substantially less in Scotland than it was in the UK, but it is a feature of those programmes across Europe. Obviously, what we have tried to do is to minimise that difference between what can be taken. What would you assess the level of risk to be in the current programme? Obviously, we are at an earlier stage of the current programme, but the actions that we have taken, for example, having reduced the number of partners from about £700 down to about £200, or their abouts... That means that it is from £200 down to £45. All right. We have substantially reduced that, so there are bigger programmes, but fewer of them, and that should help with some of the audit requirements. Plus, I think that there is a much better understanding among some of the partners now that we will not get this money back from Europe unless we can provide the audit data that is required. The risk that you refer to lies with the Scottish Government in the first instance because, obviously, the claims will come into us and we then claim it back from the EU. If they do not provide us with that money, then the liability rests in the first instance with the Scottish Government. By doing what we have done in terms of seeking to recover the shortfalls because of the lack of information or non-compliance, some of that will fall back on to the partners themselves. I think that there is a much greater awareness of that, not least because of that process that we have just gone through for the previous funding round. I think that those things helped to minimise the risk that we have this time. Since the... Compared with the previous funding round, there is an additional European Commission requirement, the N plus 3 rule, which means that if you have been allocated money in 2014 and you have not spent it by the end of 2017, then that money is lost. How much is that? How much is the risk in that for monies that are not committed by the end of 2017? I do not think that it is possible to put a figure on that, what we are trying to use to work in the ways that I have mentioned in terms of not just having set the programme in a different way with fewer partners involved in it, but sometimes with some very small organisations trying to cope with quite a large auditing requirement. We are trying to minimise that, in the meantime, to minimise the risk. I am not sure if we can put a figure on that at this stage of the process, the N3. Previously, of course, it was the N2. I am not sure if we can put a figure on that at this stage. Presumably, though, you will know whether we are talking a risk of millions or tens of millions. What is the ballpark area of risk under N plus 3? If I may, I am back at what the cabinet secretary is saying, is what the team we are currently working very, very hard to get those claims in, because what we do is we claim from the European commission, as you have correctly said, by the end of 2017. We are right in the middle of getting claims in from lead partners, processing those claims such that we can then claim. As the cabinet secretary has said, we have committed £395 million. Not all that money has been spent. That money is profiled to be spent out to the end of 2018, perhaps into 2019. However, what we are doing is working very closely with those lead partners to get as much of that funding out as we can. I am afraid that I cannot give you that detail, but I can assure you that we are working very hard to keep it to a small possible number. Should we be very concerned that there is less than 40 per cent commitment on European social fund at this stage—less than 50 per cent on ERDF—when we are already halfway through the programme? As the cabinet secretary said, when we designed the programmes, we always intended that we would commit approximately 50 per cent of the programmes in the first phase, and that should Brexit not have been brought forward, we would, at about this time, be looking to commit the second phase. That is very different to the other managing authorities across the UK. They committed funds for the entire programme at the very beginning, but we decided to put in half the funds, approximately, take stock and then commit the second half. Effectively, that is exactly what we have done. As you make in terms of the European social funding being below 40 per cent, that is due to two factors, one of which is due to some local authorities choosing not to take up their full allocation but also the exchange rate changes, which has changed that percentage take-up by around six per cent points. It has dropped it significantly. We are working very hard to ensure that we get phase 2 out of the door. Clearly, from what you are describing, if some of the lead partners are not coming forward and taking up those allocations, there must be an issue for them, too, in terms of being able to provide the much funding. I am simply keen to understand how much potential European funding we may not receive as a result of those programme issues. One area where there is more certainty is in relation to the youth employment initiative, because there are changes there. If you reduce youth unemployment from 25 plus down to 12 plus, there is less scope to take up the slack in relation to substantial progress. However, we could probably come back to the committee in writing with a greater clarity around where the likelihood of not being able to spend the entire entitlement would relate to that, but the rest of it, as David Anderson just said, is not looking not to draw down the other funds. We are working very hard to make sure that we can do that. We are not alarmed by the 40 per cent, which is pretty much where we expected to be at this stage. However, there are particular circumstances in relation to YEE, and I am happy to come back to the committee with detail on that. That is very helpful. Could you also come back to the committee regarding the N plus 3 at the end of 2017 and let us know how much, if anything, has not been drawn down? I need to do that. I just wondered if you would be able to tell the committee whether you are confident that you will be able to recover the outstanding amount of money for those projects that had high error rates. I noticed in our briefing that the error rates were from missing documentation and procurement processing errors. How does this happen with such a huge amount of money and such a huge amount of commitment? First of all, because part of the answer lies in a huge number of projects in different organisations of very different sizes. The error rates that we had were pretty typical across Europe. Quite rightly, the commission has come back and said that we cannot accept these. Going back to the previous question that was asked by Lewis MacDonald, despite all the actions that we are taking, we had one claim that came in with a 20 per cent error rate. It was pretty unusual in this current round, so that is still happening on a much less frequent basis. However, what we are seeing are the different organisations that are involved now, mainly because of the fact that it has led to local authorities and that they have the resource to do the auditing and the accounting that is necessary and are used to doing it in relation to European funding. However, I think that the answer lies to your question in the proliferation of organisations that were involved and the lack of capacity, especially in some of the smaller ones, to carry out the necessary auditing. Sometimes, more than that, I have to say, there was a disregard for the requirements that were laid down at the start of the programme on the part of those organisations. That is why we are seeking to recover the money. The other part of your question is about how we go about doing that. We have talked to all the organisations that are involved and raised invoices to them. You will be aware from the Parliament's public audit that it was. In some cases, if it is below £250, it is not worth going after that level of recovery, but in areas where it is more than that, we are doing that. We have explained quite sensitive areas that the committee's own letter to me made clear. However, we have tried to talk to the organisations where it represents a substantial amount of resource and try to work them through it. We are in the middle of that process now. I think that we have a third of its being collected already, and we expect to be substantially above that. Okay, thank you. My second question is in the programme review. Firstly, who did the programme review? Secondly, you were going to implement a number of technical changes to those programmes. The one thing that I was particularly interested in was the change to the scope of the programme for the culture and heritage activities in the Highlands and Islands, particularly with an emphasis on SME growth. I just wondered if you could talk us through that. I guess that one is coming my way. The technical changes here are actually about trying to address the point that Mr McDonald was making earlier. This is about trying to get the better absorption. Clearly, projects in the Highlands and Islands often face more challenging issues than being brought forward. We have been working with the commission to say that we want to meet those changes. That change has been saying that there is a demand. We have understood that demand from talking to the likes of Highlands and Islands Enterprise and others in the Highlands and Islands area and saying that, if we could change the rules slightly, we have a stream of projects that we could bring forward to seek funding. That is one of the reasons for bringing them in. The other part to that is that we have sought to increase the intervention rate, such that the amount of European money that we can bring to it is higher, up to potentially 70 per cent. The amount of match funding that has to be brought by the local authorities and the partners is less. That is again helpful. As to the actual review itself, it was carried out by my team. I chaired the steering group. The steering group itself, we had representatives from the Highlands and Islands Enterprise, we had representation from the third sector and we had representation from Slade as well, the local authority chief economic development staff. The actual work was carried out but it was carried out in consultation with all of the lead partners and we issued a number of calls for evidence and information to be provided. We feel that we have a pretty good tone back from those who are in receipt of structural funding to see where this is going. Again, it comes back to the point that Mr McDonald was making. A number of those people were saying that match funding is harder because often these are discretionary funds, the projects that they are supporting are being supported in different ways. What we are looking to do as well is to extend a number of projects to allow them perhaps to deliver a slightly longer timescale and that, hopefully, will make them more deliverable. I should say, though, that we are, when the programme, the programme often focuses on the money but the programmes themselves also have performance targets related to them and the Cabinet Secretary has outlined some of those here, like the number of people supported, the number of projects delivered and what we have to keep an eye on is the amount of money spent versus the actual delivery against those targets. I know that ESF money is extremely important. I benefited from it 20 years ago at university but, certainly going forward, you mentioned the issue of Brexit. The UK is due to commit with the EU in 2019 and this funding round goes up to 2020. Will there be a change of process between 2019 and 2020 for any applications? I think that that is exactly the uncertainty that they are trying to highlight earlier on. If you look at the current discussions on Brexit, there is discussion now about my article 50, which I know that the committee is going to discuss, the requirement to leave in March 2019. As I said, the UK Government has given a commitment that all funding committed to prior to us exiting the EU would be honoured, and we have said in turn that we will pass that on. However, what happens after that? What is the status after, if it is a two-year transition period, is unclear? What is the status of the shared prosperity fund, which we understand in it? Again, it is not absolutely confirmed. It would be, perhaps among other things, the UK's measure by which they would provide regional aid in trying to reduce inequalities across the UK. However, to what extent that would replace what has been paid just now. If you go back in history in the 1980s, you saw a massive contraction of regional aid in the UK, which centred very much on the Midlands of England. European funding came at that stage, and it has been an absolute lifeline, especially in places such as the Highlands and Wales. If that is going on, there is a real question mark about what the commitment is going to be for one of a better term, regional aid in those other parts of the UK. The UK is one of the most unbalanced and unequal economies in the world, and it needs to have strong measures to counteract that. We need to have, given the fact that we are less than 18 months away from a potential exit, we need to have more clarity. As has been evidenced by some of the questions that have been asked already, there is a long leading time to those things, and people need to have some degree of certainty about the framework in which they are going to operate. I cannot answer the question that you have asked, but I do not know what the arrangements are going to be, because so much is uncertain in terms of Brexit and any transition period. If there is a transition period, what does that mean for things that European funding? I thank you for that. My second question is on the hubs. It could be argued that the hubs are probably more necessary now, because we are leaving the European Union. Was that part of the thinking of the Scottish Government? Yes, it is. Having visited Berlin, where we are establishing a new hub, shortly, we have offices elsewhere in Germany, for example, in Dusseldorf. However, just from the visit to Germany on which we took the chambers of commerce with us, it is quite clear that there have not been the connections that should have been made in terms of taking up the opportunities with direct contact with the German industry and the German economy. For example, the chambers of commerce that came with us on that have tapped into their equivalent in Germany, but also the two other massive employers organisations that operate there for the first time. It was quite clear that direct contact. We met senior politicians from each of the major federal parties at the British Ambassadors residence. It is quite clear that there is a real appetite in Germany to continue doing business with Scotland. We also went to Hamburg and saw, for example, the port that is there, which is nearly all automated. However, so much goods go through Hamburg. It is extremely important to the UK and to Scotland. However, they are also very concerned not so much in Germany with their concern about Tarvis, but they are much more concerned about the bureaucracy that might attach itself to the UK's relationship with Germany and with the EU. It is vital to have these discussions and to raise the profile of Scotland. I have said to Liam Fox when I met him a while back now, although I will meet him again shortly, that the Scottish Government is perfectly happy to work within the network of the UK's representation around the world, which is a phenomenal network. However, increasingly, my experience is Scotland—for that matter, Wales, Northern Ireland and Northern England—do not get represented effectively at that level. I continue to say that, if you do represent us effectively, we are happy to work with that, but, if we do not, and even if we do, we still have to do as much as we can to emphasise the opportunities that there are for Scotland in dealing with these countries. For that reason, you are quite right. The hub that we have there—London is hugely important, and it is a global crossroads for investment—it is hugely important. We now have around 750 businesses expressing an interest in the hub, but 160 are members of that hub, and it is on the embankment in London. In fact, it might be worth the committee convener looking into that, and if you get a chance to go to it, last week, I met the Chinese ambassador at dinner, and he is offered to bring all the big Chinese companies operating in the UK based on London and elsewhere to come to that hub for events about investment in Scotland. Therefore, we do have to do these things and represent Scotland's interests. It is my view that we do it. That is why the First Minister committed to the expansion of the hubs in the EU. You mentioned the Berlin hub, the Scottish Chambers of Commerce and the first-time connections that have been made. Why has that particular UK trade facility not actually done this before? Why have they just sat there and done nothing? I should first of all say that the Scottish Chambers of Commerce with the British Chambers of Commerce have a network in which they operate, and they have connections. It is because of those connections that we have given a particular resource that the Scottish Government has to the Scottish Chambers of Commerce to make sure that we can use that to the best effect for Scotland's PLC, if you like. However, when I said that it was the first time that connection had been made, there is a particular location in Berlin where it is different there, because all companies are obliged to contribute to their equivalent of the CBI, if you like, legally obliged. It is an immensely wealthy, powerful organisation that sits with two other organisations, including the Chamber of Commerce. That direct contact has not been made, Chambers of Commerce, to tell me. It is very important. Maybe the prospect or threats of Brexit has meant that people are rapidly seeing what is going to have to be done to fill the void. I really just wanted to know why you decided on the hub model for that, and what was the thinking behind that? I suppose that it was different in different places. Currently in London—I will get George Burgess to come in on this—we were based in Doverhouse and shared with the UK Government, and it was not the place for us to carry out the activities that we wanted to carry out. If you get the chance to go to the hub that has been established in London, it is in a nesta building right on the embankment, you will see the different resources that we can use in the facilities that are there, and the drop-in points for people and businesses to use. We needed to have that facility there. In terms of Berlin, it was about the intergovernmental relationship as well. Dusseldorf is a key for manufacturing Berlin more for tourism and intergovernmental affairs. In Germany, I am writing scenes about the third highest investor in Scotland. It is very important to you as an obviously the most powerful economy in the EU. That explained that one. In terms of Dublin, we are sharing with the British Embassy there. It seems to be working quite well at this stage, so we are happy to do that. It is not an ideological thing. We will work in the best circumstance. You are right if your question suggests that because of Brexit and somebody's uncertainty that we have to up our presence, and that was the underlying philosophy, but it might be useful for George Burgess to talk more about that. I think that the cabinet secretary has really captured it. It is that bringing together of the Scottish Government's diplomatic and institutional links with business links through Scottish Development International, the hub in London, as well as the many businesses that are already signed up to be members and will be able to use the facilities there. The back office space brings together Scottish Government, Scottish Development International, Visit Scotland and other players like that. If we look across at the Brussels hub now, the committee will be aware that for many years we have had Scotland House and Scotland Europa operating in Brussels from the same building. They have worked very closely together, but there is a bit of a physical separation within that building that has been a little bit of a limitation on the work that is taking place there. We will actually bring the teams there physically together and improve the integration between those two operations in Brussels. Looking ahead to Paris, we already have a substantial SDI team based there, but no Scottish Government presence. What we will be doing is adding Scottish Government presence to the existing SDI team and getting more than we already get from the work of SDI there. Given the hubs that have already opened and are currently operating, how effective would you say that they have been so far in doing what they were established to do? Are you able to give any examples of the outcomes that have been achieved so far? I think that in relation to London, the examples that I would give for those companies have already been signed up to it. Even to major investment conferences, such as Mipham, which happened in London and in Cannes, it is certainly easier to go to London than it is to Cannes and get away with it. Some local authority leaders have found that. That can be evidenced by the level of interest that there is in those 700 plus companies. Some take-up membership costs money and helps to free the costs for us in establishing it in the first place. That level of interest has shown that that has been very effective. In relation to the Dublin hub, I hear very positive reports about it. That derives, I think, in part from the staff that are there working on that hub but the connections that they have made. It might surprise people to learn, sometimes for the first time, some of the connections that we have made with businesses and economic interests in Ireland through the use of that hub. The other ones—Paris, not yet established, Berlin, not established as yet—were more difficult to point to things that are done there. In relation to the Berlin hub, it was evident to me from the visit that we had about the potential for that hub. Those are the things that I would mention as examples of how they are working. Maybe I can add some of the very specific examples from the Dublin hub. At the moment, John Webster is our head of the hub there. There is a small team at the moment of two and a half staff equivalent in total. They have worked with the Irish Government and there is a partnership between them to create the Scottish Irish business network. They have already held a number of events both in Ireland and in Scotland. They have been working with Strathclyde University, University College Dublin and business organisations on a project in relation to collaboration between the financial sector. In fact, there is a conference coming up in the middle of October that Mr Mackay will be speaking at. I think that there are also a number of foreign direct investment projects that have been chalked up as a success that relates, at least in part, to the work of the hub. That is up to create or safeguard 295 jobs so far of which 10 are high value added. I have also seen a further F5 FDI project that has landed which has created 456 jobs. Again, we can provide those details to the committee. That is just in relation to the Irish Dublin hub so far. Thank you. Morning, cabinet secretary. I wanted to follow up on something that you mentioned in your opening statement. You mentioned that there will be some European funding available for the growth scheme. I understand that that is going to be in the form of equity funding. How could business in Scotland apply to access that funding? Who will decide which businesses are eligible and allocated funding under that European funding? First of all, there will be two elements to the eligibility. The eligibility will be dependent upon the conditions laid down by the EU when they have made this funding available. People can get in touch with probably any arm of the Scottish Government if they want to get in touch, but they can also do that through Scottish Enterprise or SDI or, indeed, as I say, any part of the Government will get directed to the right place. It is around £50 million, as has been mentioned already, which is a part of the growth scheme, not the whole amount, and it is intended to try to help those, especially SMEs, to grow. If that answers all the parts of the question, what is up? It almost does. I guess the final part is who decides how to allocate the funding and the terms of the funding. I looked at the Scottish Enterprise website and it looks like it will be the equity fund that decides which businesses in Scotland get to access the funding and the terms of that access. Is that understanding correct? I am happy to provide the exact process, which companies, if your question arises from possibly your own experience that there is some confusion out there, then that is an issue that we have to address. I am happy to give the committee all the information around the applicability of it. That is how it will be decided, but it is decided upon by the eligibility criteria laid down by the EU. Given that it is part of the larger growth fund, as you will understand, we apply our own priority to particular areas, particularly the £50 million section of the funding that is to be applied there. I am happy to give you more detail. If you are aware that there is some confusion or lack of understanding among the SMEs sector out there, then, if you let me know, we will do what we can to make sure that confusion is cleared up. On the face of it, there seems to be perfectly compelling reasons to open new hubs all over the place, for example in the emerging economies. What is the formal process for assessing the impact, the success of existing hubs and the process for deciding where and whether to open new ones? I will let George Burgess come in here as well. From my point of view, I have just mentioned some of the achievements so far in the very early stages of the Dublin hub. Over time, you want to assess whether those things are making an impact. There is an assessment made of the market, there is an assessment made of the geography, and the assessment made of how close it is to another hub, which might serve that market equally well. All those things are taken into account and going back to the questions that Stuart McMillan answered, there is underlying the EU hubs, not just in terms of the hubs, but in terms of our commitment to double the number of SDI staff working in the EU. There is a recognition about the particular challenges that we have in the EU, so our current export performance and what we believe is a potential export performance with the EU underlies that. I should also say that there is an assessment going on currently within SDI about the non-EU hubs as well, so we do assess those things and review them on a regular basis, and that has been carried out on the wider network right now. I do not know if you want to add anything to that, George. I think that cabinet secretary has largely covered it. As he mentioned in the opening statement, the hubs that we already have are each different. They are targeting things in different ways, so comparing London and Dublin would be comparing apples and oranges. Nevertheless, we are trying within the Government to establish some sort of framework for evaluating the success of our hubs overall, but the success that we have already seen in Dublin has given us the confidence that applying a similar model in Berlin and now in Paris would be a sensible thing to do. Can I just ask a couple of questions about the points that you made in your opening remarks on the programme that is currently under way? Firstly, on Superfast Broadband, how much money is EU marked from the remainder of the budgets available for the delivery of the commitment on Superfast Broadband? That was the only question. Do you want to come back in there? The programme that we have currently had applications with digital colleagues, we have allocated £20 million. That project is about to start. That is grant funding, so, of course, they would match in that. That money has yet to go out the door, so this is a project that is actually now starting. We will then continue talking to them if they want to. 100 per cent commitment to every house sold in a country and indeed business in a country is way, I mean, the overall budget is way more than that from the Scottish Government in fairness, so it is only going to be £20 million of European funding towards that. Again, it is because of some of the criteria, so it is very much in the Highlands and Islands that it is dealing with some of the far less accessible areas, so it is doing what it can within the rules that surround the European funding. I understand. Has the Government decided yet as to whether it is going to procure that contract on a pan-Scotland basis or in a number of smaller areas? I think it is fair to say, and it comes, obviously, into Fergus Ewing's area rather my own, but that is under active discussion just now. The reason for that is because of the UK Government's change or potential deal with BT, which, depending on how that is rolled out, will have an impact on Scotland. The UK deal requires, I think, a rate of 10 megabits, whereas in Scotland we are trying to aim for 30. Now, what we are trying to do is trying to reconcil our procurement programme with what is going to happen from elsewhere, given that BT is a big partner for us. In the bottom line is that we could end up spending money abortively to achieve something that would be achieved already by the UK Government, but if it is achieved, well, it is achieved to the right speeds that we want to have as well. That is why it is actively being considered. This week I was involved in the discussion about it with Fergus Ewing. It is actively being considered, and I think that he will have some clarity on that in the next few weeks. Some of us who live in the wilds would be very grateful just to get 10, believe me, if it never mind 30. Also, you mentioned Mr Brown, the developing sovereignty on workforce investment. If I caught you right, you said that the budget there would be allocated to SDS schools around Scotland and to the Scottish Funding Council. Are those the only two recipients of European funding for that particular programme? No, they are not. I do not know what to give. The point goes back to the way that this programme has been designed. We are funding those people as lead partners because they have the infrastructure to better deal with the audit requirements and procurement requirements. They are then passing that money out to far more recipients to actually do the delivery on the ground. It is fair to say that that particular strand in the previous round is one that gave us most problems in terms of the auditing, because there were so many smaller projects that were undertaken, so that is why it has funneled through those, but many other recipients will benefit from it. The final question that I wanted to ask was about your remarks about the transition period. I take your point about the uncertainty, but I guess the one thing that we do know is that, as the Prime Minister said, there will be now a UK application for a two-year transition period, 19 to 21. It is the post-21 scenario. None of us know anything about it. Would it be fair to ask you to write to the committee at some stage with the options at least that we understand? I took your point about this fund that the UK Government may come up with, but I suppose for many of us who, as you said, have relied on this kind of funding in the Highlands Islands over many, many decades, it looks to me like the proverbial cliff edge, because I can see where this funding comes from. I wonder if Mr Brown would be prepared to write to the committee with at least the options as to where we might be in 2021. No, I think it is a very good point. I will write to him as far as I am able to. I think that there are huge uncertainties there. It is a UK-shared prosperity fund that is being referred to as their measure or their means by which they can try to address inequality, and they are also linking that into their industrial strategy. However, we have very little clarity just now, but we will give what views that we can about the potential options post-2021. However, I have not listened to the point about the two-year transition. You are right to say that the UK is now talking about that. That does not guarantee that the EU will agree to that, so that adds to uncertainty upon uncertainty. However, I think that the fundamental point, and it is probably more keenly felt, as I am sure that Tavish Scott knows better than me in the Highlands and elsewhere, is the reliance on European funding now for decades, which has done huge amounts of goods in the Highlands and Islands, not least when it had objective one status and the nuts two status. It presents a real threat, I think, to the Highlands and Islands. Any views that we can give on that, we will do that. We will write back to the committee on that basis. I visited the Murray Council's income maximisation unit recently, where a handful of staff work to ensure that people get the benefits that they are entitled to and navigate welfare reform, which is a very important role. I very much welcome that unit. I learned that 50 per cent of their funding is from Europe, so I was very interested to note that, because I did not know that. I was wondering to what extent the Government is capturing all those examples and anecdotes, particularly on a constituency basis, so that MSPs are aware, and if that exercise is under way. I am not sure that it is done on a constituency basis, but I am happy to look into that for the reasons that you suggest. I am bringing in a greater focus to many of the uptakes, a huge area. I mentioned in an opening statement things about financial inclusion and financial capacity, if you like. I am happy to look at that. It depends on the cost of doing that, but I am happy to look at that being done on a constituency basis. Presumably, the point that you are making is that if you can then pass it on to MSPs, you will be able to through publicity campaigns increase the awareness of those programmes. I know that in some people, in individual cases, that can transform their lives if they get the right advice about what they are entitled to. I am happy to look at that and, if we can, provide it back on a constituency by constituency basis. My second question is, as a Highlands and Islands MSP, representing Murray, like Tavish Scott and others, I am well aware of the positive impact that the European regional policy has had on our communities over many years. Clearly, today we have discussed the threats that the withdrawal from the EU poses to our communities. However, does that now mean that there is an opportunity for Scotland to form its own regional policy? We will need a regional policy in Scotland if we want to promote economic development in the Highlands and Islands and all corners of the country. Therefore, can I urge the cabinet secretary to seriously think about taking that forward or perhaps the work is already under way? Well, I think that there is work in a number of different areas that would contribute towards that, and maybe I could wrap that into the letter right back in relation to Tavish Scott's question about what the potential options are in future. However, I do have to make the point that whatever programme you choose to or measures you choose to bring forward have to be underpinned by resources, and that is the fundamental question. If the resources are currently used by the EU to assist Scotland and especially the more disadvantaged areas of Scotland, if those resources are not forthcoming post the EU situation, then that undermines whatever strategy you have put in place. That is the bigger question and that is the bigger uncertainty, and maybe it will be available through the shared prosperity fund. I welcome back on that as far as I am able to do that, although we have to know—the Scottish Government has to know—what the shape and nature of this prosperity fund is if it is to be a replacement for these programmes before we can properly configure what we would do. However, I think that your point, as the Tavish Scott to the need for further thinking on this, even given the uncertainty and we will come back with where we are at on that. I urge the cabinet secretary to define regional policies beyond funding in terms of our policy directions, largely being dictated by EU policy in past decades. We can form our own Scottish regional policy, which might include, for instance, all new civil service jobs that are located in all corners of Scotland. Are there other issues like that that could be included in Scottish regional policy now that we have the opportunity to—or that we are forced into having to develop our own regional policy? I think that part of that will be around things such as city deals and other initiatives as well, so I am happy to do that. I am just thinking who will get to do that, but we will make sure that we get something right. We have already gone over time, and we have got one last point of clarification from Lewis MacDonald. To follow those answers to Tavish Scott and Richard Lockhart, the EU withdrawal bill that it currently stands means that those decisions will go back to Westminster. Is that correct? That is your interpretation as well. Yes, I think that that is the whole nature of the 111 discussion that Tavish Scott and Richard Lockhart made. My question, I guess, is—again, to be helpful in the fuller response that you are sending to the committee around this issue—what proposal will the Scottish Government put forward in terms of any future UK framework for regional development funding? Will it make a proposal for simply freezing the shares as they currently exist? Will it make a proposal for a dynamic relationship, depending on levels of development or non-development, just to give us an idea of what it is that the Scottish Government envisages for post-2021? Notes have been taken of this. It will be quite a fulsome letter when it comes back to the committee. It points to some very important issues. All I would say is that a lot of that work is currently done. We do not just rely on what the EU says it will fund. We have a number of other measures. I mentioned city deals, but a number of other things where we attach our own priorities to things. However, it is going to be foggy at least, because if you have a UK measure of the shared prosperity, which seems to be the preferred method for replacing EU funding, we, the Scottish Government, really have to know what the shape of that is and what the criteria are that are being applied before we can configure a response to that. It does not mean to say that we are going to sit back and wait and find out what those things are before we get our own views across, but we have to know that so that you can know how to fill in the gaps. Of course, the optimum position would be that we should not say it for the Scottish Government is to have those resources ourselves so that we can decide what the priorities are within Scotland. Thank you very much, cabinet secretary, and I look forward to receiving your letter. We will suspend very briefly until the next witnesses to come in. Our second item of business today is an evidence session on EU citizens' rights, and today's panel are all EU citizens living and working in Scotland and our members of the Fife Migrants Forum. I apologise. I would also like to let you know that this evidence session is being streamed on Facebook live, so welcome to anyone who is engaging with the committee through Facebook. I think that that is the first for the committee, so I wanted to let you all know that. I would like to welcome the panel of witnesses. Since we have a larger panel of witnesses than normal, it might be best if the witnesses introduce themselves and tell us a little bit about who they are and what they do. Hello, my name is Eva Smirzańskań. I moved to Scotland since 2010. My husband came here one year before me. I have two children. I am a worker and I am a student, and I live in Glenoffice. Thank you. Hello, I am Roxana Dymutru. I am from Romania. I just got married in 2013. In 2014 was an open market for Romanian and Bulgarian to come here for having a new job. Being a new family, I said, let's have a new start and hopefully a better one. We have our family with us. We have two daughters and we are living in five. We love here, living and hope we will be for a long time. Good morning, my name is Katarzyna Słavec. I'm a case worker in the five migrants' forum. I came to Scotland about 12 years ago, but I'm declared that Glenolotess and five is my place and this is my home. Every day I do link with the problems which actually we have it after Brexit, when Brexit will affect us. I'm a mother of two years old daughter. She has a British passport. I have a mortgage. What else do you want to know? Hello, my name is Victor. I'm from Spain. I've been here for seven years now. I've worked since then and I'm still working. I just want to make sure that we can stay here for a long time. My name is Auxesosa. I'm also from Spain. I've been here seven years too. I am married. I've got two kids. My mum lives with me. I work. I'm going to college and I also want to stay here as long as I can. I don't want to leave. Thank you very much. I'm sure that you all have been watching on television the ongoing negotiations between the EU and the UK Government. The status of EU citizens is a priority for the EU and the EU has said that they cannot move on to the next stage of talks until there is clarity on the status of EU citizens. Of course, there seems to be two different views of what level of reassurance is required to make people feel that their rights are being absolutely properly protected. There still is a difference between the EU and the UK. Are you concerned about the way negotiations are going or do you feel that you are happy with the announcements that the UK has made about reassurances towards EU citizens? I don't know who wants to start EU citizens rather. We still don't know anything because it's not clear information to us that we have a right to reside up here permanently or not. All what we want to know is that we will not be lost in our houses. We don't lost our jobs. We don't lost our humans right up here because we don't want to be treaching on the front. We put so many contributions to this country and we don't want to be discriminated on any point. What say, Kasia? Because we still don't know what we have to do. We need clear information, what we have to do next, what will be next step. Every time we look, we watch the TV, what's happened but still not happened. We still don't know. Lots of my friends have to leave Scotland because they don't see the future because they don't know what's next. Especially people who are here less than five years. From two months my friends, my eight friends, leave Scotland, my close friends because they don't still know what happened. I am stuck because I don't know what I have to do next. I have to planning my future here or I have to planning my study here. I have to, I don't know what I have to do now. The same my sons who thinking about future here because they are 11 and 15. They don't know what will be next. They can't stay here and they can't stay here. Yes. Even if you will be applying for the permanent residential card, it's not saving us enough. We not will be saved because the permanent residential card will be not longer valid after Brexit. That's the information that we had on the website. How we can protect each other? How we can protect our family? My understanding is that the legal right to remain permanently after five years is not contested and is not at risk. Therefore, the question is, I guess, are people, are you and are other people applying to have that status recognised and what is your experience in applying for that status? Did you ever see this form? This form, it's about 80 pages and they will ask you. Can I ask you the question, Louise? Do you remember when you've been last time on holiday or 12 years ago when you've been away on holiday for how long? Can you tell me this? That's a well. It's a very good question. You're putting me right in the spot. Because they asking, ask about those questions. How many times I was away from this country because this is my country? When, for how long, when I come back, they ask about any single of benefits what we was claiming. That means if we were claiming child tax credit, they asking how much, how long. If somebody was on job, they asked exactly how much, how long. Do you think that we are able to provide this information? So the issue then is having an accessible mechanism to make that application. Are you saying you've made that application? I was helping and I've been trained for the five law centre how to do this application, but I don't see any point to do this application if that application is not longer valid. It's cost for me and my husband because my daughter has a British citizen already. It's just wasting the money. That's 160 wasting the money and I know a lot of people which actually was helping with to apply for this application before we had information that application would be no longer valid after Brexit. And where did you get that information from? On the government website. So it's true that we are still being able to be permanent residency in here. The thing is that card, that permanent residency card is not going to be valid after Brexit. So all the foreigners that paid for that card spent more than 120, 160 pounds. I know a friend who paid 360 pounds for the whole family. He's, for just an example, has to pay for the new settled status. So what's the point of applying now or a few months ago for the permanent residency if it's not going to be longer valid if we have to apply again for a settled status? Yes. Thanks, convener. I wonder what communication have you had directly from the UK Government? We don't have any communication. We have to look in the newspapers. We have to look in the government website. That's it. We don't have any letter from government that you write are saved. And even up here when I was applied for my passport for my daughter, when I have to provide all the documents from last 11 years, it's no matter. I'm still not safe up here. I'm working and I was work up here since I coming here. And what will be if I will be, if something will be happening to me or I have to lost my job? I will lost my job. What will be, what will be happened? We've heard anecdotes of European citizens living here who are now struggling to get tenancies because landlords aren't convinced that they'll be able to guarantee that they're staying here, that they're unable to get mortgages, struggling to get new jobs. Are those anecdotes accurate in your experience and from the experience of people who are not? I have a few clients who actually was coming and spoke about mortgages because people are worried to take a mortgage and I know it's few banks already was rejected the application just because I guess because of the immigrant status. Most of the employers will start to think twice or more than twice if it's the right thing to take an immigrant as an employee or to take someone else from outside of Europe or a British is not an issue to take it or not but it's this, shall I have this one who is already here or shall I make an announcement outside of for it? At this point if an employer got two candidates, one is from Europe, one is from outside Europe, I believe 80% of the times it's going to be for the one is outside Europe because they are regulated, they got the visas, they got the provider for work so the problem is going to be for us after Brexit, there's no employer is going to take us because I don't think it's going to be nothing ready. And it's not going to be just after Brexit it's during the negotiations just now, there is nothing clear, there is nothing clear about what's going to happen with us, what kind of paperwork we are going to need to stay in here, if we are going to need just the settled status or we are going to need something else, if we are going to need to prove something to the employers and it's not just to protect us, it's also to protect the employers, the employers needs protection needs to be, needs to have clear that they can hire someone from the EU and it's also about being comfortable to hire someone from the EU that knows that he's not going to leave that job, that after one month or two months they're going to have to rehire someone. This was exactly my situation when I applied about a new job to a huge company and I was here five years and a lady who has interviewed with me asked me about pernament resident card, I told her I don't have to because I'm not applied because I don't have to apply, she told me I can't, she can't give me this job because she don't know how long I can stay here so she spent time on a training me, she spent time on a you know everything what is what is for new new employer and now next somebody told no you can't employ people from union and she have to throw me from work so I think employer feel not comfortable because they don't know what will be next, what will be next, what have to, because we haven't resident card, my application is at home really at home, I have to change this application three times because three times was change, I was updating so I can't feel this form alone, I need help lawyer because normal people don't understand everything so we really have to spend money from lawyer to apply it for this application and now I hear to this pernament resident card will be worried so I can't find new job because many many employer don't know what what next so I stay in my job, I love my job really but I need some extra for example next job extra jobs but lots of lots of employer has problem because don't know what what next and just finally time commuter what effect is this having on a number of you mentioned you have children what effect is this having on your children this uncertainty because it's uncertain we don't know what's going to happen with them and that's we all want I said earlier um I commented earlier I don't mind what happened with us if we have to leave we have to leave if Britain doesn't want us I don't want to be in some place that they don't want me all I want is to protect my kids they are just six and two and if you ask them if you if you ask the older where are you from he's not gonna tell you what is he from but if you are asking something about Spain he's gonna tell you that Spain is some place to go for holidays so he's not from Spain he he just know that we are going to Spain for holidays that's it so we don't know what's gonna happen with them my kids dance doesn't have a British passport they have a Spanish passport I don't know if I can apply for the British citizenship for them um I don't know what's going to happen with the school I don't know nothing because there is not information there is not a letter from the UK government to us saying don't worry it will give you more information or um updating us about something there is nothing clear nothing at all thank you to another uh cities because we bought a house uh we moved from kikodi to Glenrofe's and my son had to moved uh change a school and first day his new friends asked him where are you from he told I am from kirkodi because he don't understand he's from Poland because his life his old life is here he spent here seven years he has uh he was two years old when he came here and he don't know different life we of course spent a holiday spent christmas or something like that in Poland but his all life is here so he isn't from Poland he's from Glenrofe's from kirkodi sorry so thank you a savage score thank you um I think most of us would think the situation in urin is utterly intolerable in terms of the uncertainty but the the question I wanted to ask was in terms of the case you've made about that uncertainty have you used your mps who obviously uh sit in the house of commons down in London where and therefore can make the case directly to the UK government ministers who are responsible for this uncertainty have you used that that channel to to make uh to point these these things out yes we had on five migrants forum we have a few events with them and yours of course explain our worries as well but since this they cannot give us answer us you cannot give me yeah yeah so good yeah so nothing happens as a because there's no answers no certainty from the UK government about this yeah and have you been invited at any stage to talk directly to the UK government whether to um you know to officials to civil servants or directly to ministers I think we had a secretary of the minister last few weeks ago okay and he was we was talked directly today and you made this these points to them okay did you feel you had a got a sympathetic hearing you know it's very hard question for me because it's part of my work to be up here yeah and as I tell you I don't feel immigrant up here because I feel that I belong to Scotland and I belong to my small town Glenrothes when I'm staying from last 12 years and I know that people would like to help us but they are hopeless with with this because the main government yeah we understand the reasons why I mean it's a negotiation that is ongoing yeah you just wanted to be finished but our feeling it's lots of people has depression our feeling is like we don't know what will be happened and imagine just sleeping with with the feeling that you have a mortgage you have a your small daughter which actually she she don't know anything from my country she she she's just growing on this culture and everything she don't have any other friends that that friends from the street and neighborhood and just imagine my worries on the night what will be if I cannot work I cannot pay my mortgage I cannot make her a future and what will be with me if she she can't she will be stay up here because I was not apply for the Polish citizen for her if she has a British passport because I don't see a point and she will stay up here and I have to go to my country I'm just I'm really confused and and my job it's working with the people and every day the people coming with worries about the Brexit and what will be happened and does not help as well. Want to come in? So yeah I personally emailed two weeks ago my MP my local MP and because I heard about the settled status I it was the first time I heard that the the permanent residency card is not going to be valid and after Brexit so I wanted to contact him to see if he can give me some advice about if it's true if it's not true what can he do if I should wait if I shouldn't wait um he never replied so yeah we we have tools and we use them but I really believe that if they don't have answers how can they answer us that's a problem we're all in that position exactly thank you very much Richard Lockhead thank you I just wanted to explore where you get your information from because it strikes me it's a very complex picture and there's ongoing negotiations and you were saying that you get some of your information from the newspapers is there anything you think could be put in place to give you more support to make sure you're getting constant updated authoritative information in terms of what the status is and also how the negotiations are progressing is there I'm just I just sense from people in my own constituency and from what you're saying today that it's very difficult for people to get accurate reliable information I don't I I think we just need information really information on a 100 percent what we have to do because every negotiation don't give us nothing new everything is talking one one place this is of course my opinion but um we need on a 100 percent what we have to do just one decision which told us what we have to do next okay I'm just thinking whether there should be a national service that people can sign up to and get a weekly update or something I just was trying to think through the website and then you have the news just just just just this way that what we're doing yes there is a lot of information on um on um I have to say names sorry Facebook Twitter whatever um and um I don't know and I want to believe that the government knows which are the migrants and from where we are coming from so if if they have a database um maybe the consent letter to confirm the new movements if um they have an agreement about about this about don't get the permanent residency or or get it but take in mind that is going to be changed for example if I've got a letter saying that I don't save money for the permanent residency and I will wait for the settle status that's that's what I'm doing now I I took away the idea of taking the permanent residency just for waiting um if there is if the application for the settle status is open I don't know I have to find out so why I don't get a letter or an email saying I know you're from Spain or you are from EU and this is open we are offering you this we think that you are able to get it um here is the information um if there is any other um agreement with the EU or between MPs or whatever if there is any other decision that they know that they are going to do it after Brexit they should tell us instead of for us finding us on Facebook newspaper televisions or word of mouth because always is going to be a rumor exactly I think that's certainly something that should be pursued by authorities my second question is clearly we hope you feel welcome in Scotland and we rely on people moving to Scotland because we need the people's contribution and skills in this country so we rely as a nation on people moving to Scotland so many people in Scotland are upset by what's happening just now but in terms of some of the anecdotes I know that from speaking to certain people I hear that EU nationals are now wanting to move away from Scotland or UK they're hearing about friends and family who are going to come here but have now changed their mind and are going elsewhere I just wanted you to perhaps elaborate on your experience you know from people you're speaking to who've perhaps moved to Scotland to previous question the home revenue already have all the information about your time when how long you are here and how many years you have a contribution on this country that mean it's easy to find for them and even when you have your personal account on the home revenue it already show you the year of the contribution the year of the works that mean it's easy to for the government just to decide that which one which one of us it's you know has a right to reside which no at the same they have information how many times we went away from the country and for how long the second question it's yes we already have it that from Eva's classes eight of families decided not come back to Scotland after holiday on my work I have about seven families which actually they're moving to other countries as well because they are not with safety up here as well they are asking me what it will happen to them shall they prepare to pack from 2019 to move back to Romania or thinking about moving somewhere else what will be their status here because we all came here believing in some rights and we got some rights here and after the Brexit will start it's like you know having a dog you have it for Christmas and sorry I don't have enough space for you I have to send you away to a to another house on my work there are a lot of EU citizens that are deciding to leave because they don't know what is their future in here and there are a few already left and there are another few that are saving to leave because obviously if you're going to start a new life you need the money to start that life and I personally been here for seven years my both kids have born in here one in London and the other one in in Cercodi I refuse to live I don't want to live my country is getting better now that's what I hear and I want to believe that I any family can have a kind of good life in there but I refuse to live this is my house and I left and we used to live in London for two years when we first came to the UK and we moved after two years to Danferlin we feel welcome in here and this is so different to London we are so comfortable in here I don't want to live this is my house this is my place and and my my kids are here they have their friends they have their schools so there is no point for me to start a new life from zero in another country Spain is just the country I was born I don't feel Spanish anymore yeah and I've got student mill who wants to come in are you finished it should look good can I ask imagine you were in a position as as we hope to be in the next few weeks where we have in front of us David Davis who is the chief negotiator for the UK government in Brussels and negotiating the detail of brexit what would you say to him what is the answer to the questions that you've highlighted so effectively this morning is the answer simply for the british government to accept that european union citizens who are here should continue to have all the rights that you currently have on the same basis that you currently have them is that essentially what you would want to see as the british government's position in negotiating with europe yes as she said before the government already knows who europe citizens are here working paying taxes having a life and who not so we are here to make UK better and they know that the uncertainty people feel would be removed if the UK government simply said people who are here now will continue to have the same rights they have had up in the past better for us thank you convener good morning i think the evidence that we've heard from yourselves has been extremely powerful and i want to thank you for that i want to take you back just to the reasons that you came to scalfland and in the UK in the first place and the whole issue of the of free movement within the european union as to how beneficial you have actually felt that has been for yourselves but also for friends and family so um we are married um we got married in 2010 and i just finished my college he was unemployed for almost two years and we didn't have any plan to come to the UK um i was planning to to have a job in there about what i had a study and one day him and my mum sat me on the sofa and said you have to live because it's not fair for him to be unemployed for this long time spend was in a very bad time and even though i had the hope to find a job on what i studied um there was nothing certain so we were looking for um places to decide which country because we could move anywhere and i had a sister living in London already uh but that we prefer to move to Germany or to norway uh but the language was easier and it was easier because we had my sister in here so um it was just okay language we don't speak English but we can understand something and it's going to be easier because we've been studying English uh for the old every single school year um let's go to my sister and she welcomed us on her house um in two weeks we had a job one of us um just simple as that two weeks when he'd been unemployed for two years um and after two years in London we decided that it was too much it was too big it was too stressful and a very long period of time traveling to go to work and come back so we decided to to look for something else because it isn't just stressful or whatever the impact on us it's just the future of my son on that city so big with so many people um so he found a job in here in Amferlain so we decided to move and that was already five years ago and we don't regret any single movement um if i could go back now to my country maybe i will be welcome in there no um i'm getting my qualifications in here um i'm an agency accounting in here and um the law in there is different so i'm not going to be able to be an accountant in there um that's why i moved in here it was easier for my my sister and the kind of knowledge of English um most of the people when when we moved asked us did you came for the benefits no i don't receive any benefit any we had our son the 24th of ffogos 2011 and one year after we heard that we could apply for working tax and child tax i didn't even know that we didn't know that we had right to have benefits we've been told a thousand times we don't need to work we got two childs and just the government pay for the childs we don't have to work because the government is going to pay for everything i refuse to do that i came here to make a life of myself my family because i finished my uni and i cannot find a normal well paid job 12 years and going poland and i cannot afford pay the rent for my house and my mommy has a cancer and shinita support as well i was came up here and i started to work day after when i came up here i had an interview and i had a job one of the hotels and i was working 80 hours a week for two years to have some money for me save some money to buy a house up here and rest money to send was sent to poland to help my mommy with to survive she's fine just now but it was a long time i was i was unemployed up here just for one and a half month but from 12 years i was working up here all the time and the contribution up here and the job of the community would contribution to the community what we're doing it's amazing because i start conversation cafe it's a part of my job as well which actually was helping people to learn english and helping people to the community and just imagine situation when on the small room you have a more scottish people coming that people which actually was belong to this conversation cafe because they feel so happy to talk with us they are supporting us with the bad feeling about the brexit and it's amazing it's amazing but the other way we still don't know what will be happened um if if other witnesses don't want to come in i've got mary uh good john wants to ask a question yes thank you so much for coming along today and for telling us about your experience and i'm so glad to hear in your last response there that you know you do feel supported in that way and yeah i couldn't help but feel angry and frustrated as well you know i like someone you talked about being asked if he came for the benefits and i think that that's one element of this whole conversation which really angers me because well first of all as if our benefits are all that generous anyway as a country i think that's one thing um but really it's just in terms of your sense of being here um and would you say that has has your view of scotland or the UK changed since the referendum um i know that you say a lot of you want to stay here and it's your home i have your opinions of scotland or the UK as as a whole changed since all this to be honest um before the scotland referendum to leave UK i was hoping scotland to don't leave UK because remaining to the EU and now it was i am hoping to get another referendum to get rid of the UK and be part of the EU again um yes my my view of UK has changed a lot um as i said earlier um if i'm not welcome i'm not gonna stay that's why i want to stay in scotland i don't want to go back to england um i don't want to leave scotland it's Scottish people are really friendly and um they are real people that they're humans and um they treat us as equals and when i was living in London that didn't happen i didn't know my neighbours and um we couldn't have friends because everyone was so busy um in here we have friends we and Scottish friends is friends from another countries from the EU from outside the EU um here you can make a life and that's the change on my view that i have made is um it's ah please it's got only a few k want to come in on that question i would like thank you uh i don't know Richard probably who welcome us because i really don't long time i he i didn't hear this words because when i come here i feel i was proud that i can use my language wasn't problem nobody looks on me like i don't know from but now really i avoid using my language between other people because i feel they think i don't come i don't want come be here i don't know i could explain because i think uh because we speak about this um when somebody go to vote vote and decide to leave a uh union European Union thinking this day every immigrants move to their country and they feel uh Scottish people or uh British people feel um frustrated because this not happened and they probably uh not feel good with us because we are still here thank you very much for that i can only imagine how frustrating it is to see negotiations on each side and knowing that you can't have any say in that and it's pretty much determined by you know we'll have the negotiator on the EU side we'll have the UK government and that's you just have to wait and see what comes out of that but i was just wondering i mean have you had do you look at the different negotiating positions between the two areas and i suppose what are the specific are there specific points in particular or specific areas you want to see protected or things that you feel like on either negotiating side haven't been considered or things that you you know need to be discussed in further detail i just want to to remain here the same i am now i don't want to pay for a visa i don't want to an employer have to pay a working visa for me because he wants me to stay here i don't want that to happen i want to still have free to decide if i want to stay here if i want to go somewhere else i just don't want that to change question we had a panel of lawyers here last week who talked about this matter and some of them identified some specific aspects of the negotiations that could cause problems and one of the things that they said was that the UK government was suggesting that to apply for settled status european citizens would have to show a passport many european citizens don't use passports they use identity cards is that something that's emerging as a as a problem yeah probably just that for in spain we got both of them we can have a passport we can have a id card and we can travel with both of them no problem within europe but if i have to pay for a if i if i have to get to choose i'm going to choose the id card basically because it's cheaper i don't want to pay the extra money for the passport because i don't want to use it at least now i don't want to get out to europe i don't have plans to go abroad can we just have a Scottish passport when talking about what we want to see from those i want to see them to discuss about us as people as real humans not as a number i want to get down not as i've got i don't know how many millions of migrants and i want to reduce them on i don't know how many percent we are real people with real life with real problems and with real works with real jobs and my boss is a real boss with a real company and if he lose me he's gonna have to find someone else so we have to protect everything not just the migrants or the british we have to protect everything and that's something i really appreciate from today that your guys are taking your time to listen to us and to see our own problems on all life and that's something the british government should do that too said with a few migrants from the EU and listen to them to see what kind of problems they are looking at what kind of future they are looking for the the migrants the other issue that's come out in terms of the negotiations is that the UK government have not given a cut-off date for when settled status could apply and i know the EU have been pressing them to name a cut-off date but they have not done so is that something that's of concern to people in your organisation John just imagine how many immigrants we have in Scotland and all UK and imagine if all these people will be applied on the one time for this application that i need to say something else about this because i think i will be a disaster to be honest the same was what was happened with the permanent residential card because they already have so many forms to check and they're stacked yeah Eva did you want to respond to that point similar like in kasha yes yeah and finally the other difference between the EU and the UK in terms of these negotiations is that the EU wants and if they get a settlement they want citizens EU citizens in this country they want their rights to be upheld by the European court of justice whereas the UK government is saying that they want the british courts to rule on those rights but with guidance looking at the looking at european law but they want it to be decided in british courts is it important to you that your rights are still protected by the european court of justice on my country the Strasbourg tribunal it very important because of the politic situation politic situation that changed so many times and the influences to their courts are special just now very huge and if we want to fight the Strasbourg tribunal at just the last hope for us i don't mean i don't meet very people up here which actually using the Strasbourg tribunal in scotland against the courts up here i don't mean even i don't know which difference could do to us because i'm not planning to use it and i don't know anyone that have using it so one thing i would like to say i don't know maybe that both help in on that moment when the barcelon attack and the terrorist attack last month we were there we were just 40 minutes away so we called the the council the the UK consular on Barcelona and they couldn't help because we are not a british and i i was in contact with spain with spain and they couldn't help because i'm i'm not spanish i'm residency here in in the UK so i am belong to nowhere so if if i want help somewhere outside of the UK i cannot get help so that's something that it really needs to be checked i don't know if it's something to do the brexit or not but that needs to be checked i don't have a permanent resident card because i know is not going to be valid after brexit and i'm waiting for the settled status so i don't have nothing to prove that i live in here but that needs to be checked we need to be protected out of the UK that sounds like an issue with the present position and so i'm curious to understand what it was that you were trying to get from the spanish government as a EU citizen in spain that they weren't able to give you so basically it was to see if we were protected where we can travel where we couldn't travel we went on holidays so everything we had was on news and on media it wasn't nothing clear so who were you asking for advice the police or in spain it was the police at the moment the mosos and the only thing they could say if you're going to Barcelona don't go by car that's the only thing but then we had to take the plane two days after so we wanted to know if we needed more time because there are more checks or anything something we wanted to know something and there was no place we were from nowhere the reason i'm asking is because i guess my earlier question was do you want to maintain the rights you currently have but if you're describing a situation where your current status creates a difficulty that clearly raises some other questions about the EU it was a very difficult moment and i know that this is a very difficult question because of that because i don't belong to anywhere when i'm out of the UK because i cannot prove that i am living in the UK i just have a spanish passport but i don't live in there it's changing the subject slightly but thank you for coming along today we know that the hospitality and the agricultural sector are very reliant on migrant labour and i just wanted to ask you if your friends or your family work in seasonal labour and how you believe that i mean you you will have pretty much settled status you've lived here for quite a long time all of you possibly over five years as i i made some notes at the start but how do you believe that you know migrant labour is going to work in the future for the seasonality of agriculture and hospitality particularly in Fife well we already have a contact with a few farms and hotels on the five which actually they asking about people to work and they don't have nobody because people just decided to move or decided to have you know like a work on different area on the more more safety place for their status a my colleague from my work column he was on hospital and the five person which actually was going to care of him was immigrants and i just cannot imagine situation on one day i hope it's never never will be happened but one day when all the immigrants just not will be coming to drop and what will be happened with this country what will be happened with great Britain because we are everywhere we working on the hospitals we working on the farms we working on the on the one house we working on the shops we work everywhere the north the cleaner somebody who it's pick up your food for you produce the food that most of these people they are migrants and i just cannot imagine one day if people just give up and will be going on the strike and this country will be stopped i just cannot imagine situation i remember situation i don't know maybe last last year when on our facebook was information one day we not coming immigrants not coming to work and how many how many immigrants don't coming to work everybody come because we protect we care about our job our because we we feel respect because you welcome us you give us possibilities so we respect everything so nobody from immigrants stop at this work this day work everybody come to work okay thank you okay and we're now slightly over time and i'm going and i'm going to draw this evidence session to a close can i once again thank you all very much for taking the time to come here i know you as we've heard you're all very hard working people and you've had to take time off your work to attend this committee session so we do very much appreciate it and just to reiterate what other members of the committee said that you are very welcome in scotland and certainly this committee will be working hard to try to get answers for some of the questions that you've raised here today so thank you very much again thank you very much can i just thank you very much as a five migrants forum member and guys if you want to if you would like to come and see how we're working and the problems with every people lives you are welcome on our office as well thank you very much for that invitation but brief suspension