 Alright thank you for coming for our session. We welcome you but we would appreciate if you would move a little closer to us. Come a little closer. We do not bite, we're friendly folk. So we're having a panel and we're looking at some provocation questions so it'd be really nice if we can hear you without you having to yell. So thank you so much for moving. Definitely nice. No looking at the back here. Thank you. This is great. Thank you so much. Okay so thank you so much for coming and our panel is about futures of interdisciplinary open educational resources. My name is Dr. Connie Blumgren and I am a professor at Athabasca University in our Masters of Education in Open Digital and Distance Education and to my left is... Go ahead James. Hi I'm Dr. James Greenwood Lee I'm a professor at Athabasca University assistant professor in Applied Mathematics at the Center for Science. And I am Dr. Stella George. I am an associate prof in Computing and Information Systems at Athabasca University and we have one more colleague Trevor, Dr. Trevor Butler who is in the School of Architecture at Athabasca University and he's going to join us via the telephone today. Oops sorry. Okay so Athabasca University is Canada's online and open university and we welcome a diversity of learners from all over Canada and we celebrate and acknowledge indigenous heritage including the ancestral lands on which our buildings are located today in Athabasca on Treaty 6 and Treaty 8. It's a traditional territorial meeting ground and of the Cree and the Métis and it's been the home for many well time immemorial for many indigenous peoples. We respectfully acknowledge that we live and work on the traditional lands of the indigenous peoples of the country known as Canada and we honour the ancestry heritage and gifts of indigenous peoples and give thanks to them. So we're going to be talking about a very interesting project interdisciplinary by nature and by design and it was as you can tell we've got an educator, mathematician, computer scientist and an architect engineering architect construction engineer so quite different in our backgrounds and so James is going to have a little bit of the Genesis story about the Callisto funding. Yeah so I think we just to start off with an acknowledgement to Callisto. Callisto is a educational outreach program that's supported by Cibera and Pacific Institute of Mathematical Sciences here in Canada and they focus on educational outreach that centres on data science. So I'm not going to talk too much about how this all came to be because there is a bit of a story there but rather I think we want to highlight what the project was and use it as an example because it'll sort of ground the discussion the panel discussion later on. So in our case Callisto funded our project called form and function sustainable design meets computational thinking and this was a project that sought to provide educational outreach through the creation of OER focused on computational thinking and promoting computational thinking at the high school level. So in approaching this project we really wanted to be open in the sense of opening it up to the broadest possible audience so I think one of the dangers when you start thinking about computational thinking is that it gets siloed in very quickly into computer science, mathematics possibly and it eliminates and creates barriers for a large potential audience and so we really wanted to open up the discussion of what is computational thinking and have that available to a broader audience which is why we took an interdisciplinary approach and we did so using a STEAM approach and a bit of a sleight of hand in that we took the spotlight off of computational thinking and placed it on a related concept but a concept that felt more universal and that was on the concept of design and so the project really became about three design inquiries. The first introduced design as a concept from an architectural and built communities perspective, introducing the idea of sustainable design, the problems that are associated with sustainable design, what sustainable design might look like and how it might be achieved. The second design inquiry then pivoted and it took more of a natural sciences perspective and asked well what does design look like from a natural sciences perspective and then the third perspective on or that third inquiry came back to computational thinking and said well what does design look like from a mathematical and computer modeling perspective so seemingly they're a bit unrelated or totally unrelated but we found a way to pull them all together. I think how we were able to pull them all together was that underlying the project with these sort of core values that really sort of brought the team together. So the first of those values is of course openness and in some ways that goes without saying we're all faculty at Athabasca University which is Canada's open university and so in varying degrees we all deal in open education on a day-to-day basis but as Connie pointed out we're all from diverse backgrounds from different centers. We're formed this interdisciplinary team and I think when you work in any team but in particular interdisciplinary teams it's important that those teams be collaborative and cooperative and that you be open to sharing your knowledge and your perspectives and equally open to hearing and listening and learning from the knowledge of others and their perspectives. So that was important for us. Ultimately I guess the goal of all this openness is empowerment so we wanted to empower teachers with new materials and a different perspective on computational learning. We wanted to empower students to be able to learn this subject matter but I think one of the things that we really wanted to also seed was a whole systems view. So we wanted to move away from that siloed really focused perspective on on subject matter and we wanted to provide something that looked more at a whole system and sort of seed that into sort of the minds of young students. So the next few slides actually and I'll push through these pretty quickly because one of the products that we produced through this was is a video and animation that provides the overarching story of the project and so there's probably better value in watching that than listening to me have on about these slides but these slides essentially highlight the process that we went through in developing each of the design inquiries and tying them together. In fact I think these were repurposed from one of our early meetings as the project kicked off so just the highlight is that you know we've the first one focused on sustainable design from that sort of architectural and built communities perspective. The next one pivoted to the natural sciences perspective and here we're you know our thoughts were that we could not only look at nature for inspiration as to what solutions to sustainable design problems might look like but we could also look to nature for processes to find those solutions and in this case that's natural selection that we fell upon and that provided us with our pivot to our final design inquiry which was mathematical and computer modeling and basically using natural selection as a process to emulate for mathematical and computer modeling. Of course OER are only useful if they have real practical applications in the classroom and so a large part of the work that we did was really focused on creating those curriculum connections and I think this will be part of what we end up discussing later on. So it worked quite well and it was quite I think there were quite beautiful connections between what we created and the Alberta high school curriculum and in fact quite rich with many connections possible and I think there's even many more that we haven't even explored. That being said they're scattered across different courses right so high school is taught in a very siloed manner so it's when you create these materials you're making connections to a bunch of different courses as opposed to any single course and that potentially poses problems. So what we did our best and we put it all together and it came together through the work of the hard work of a bunch of contributors so we'd just like to point that out and the materials are available on OER commons and through the Callisto website and I think right now what we'll do is just shift to watching the video and then move on from there. Is it going to work? Okay he's just working on it there. Just to speak to that we really were thinking about high school students primarily in Alberta but part of the design was to also create it so that it was had lots of hooks so being OER making it available in different ways for others to build out sort of like Lego sometimes what we thought. So enjoy it's about eight minutes. Computational thinking is much more designed the shape of the building based on its functions and goals. Aesthetics are generally preferred but beauty also needs functionality. As we seek to lessen our environmental impact in the face of climate change we must build communities that sustainably integrate into the ecologies they inhabit. Our goal is to design communities that create as much energy as they consume, operate to conserve water, are carbon neutral and are beautiful. Attaining ecological integration of our built communities is a very complex design problem. How might we solve this? Using ideas from nature. Have you ever wondered how nature is so well designed? We see diversity and variation. Animals adapted for where they live. This is due to natural selection. Darwin's finches are a prime example of natural selection. During his ocean voyage as a naturalist Darwin observed and collected finches while visiting the Galapagos Islands. With the help of ornithologist John Gould they realized that the Galapagos finches were similar to a type of finch found on mainland South America. This similarity suggested that the Galapagos Islands finches came from the mainland but they were quite different. Surprisingly they were also different from island to island. The finches size, claw size and beak shape all varied depending on the food sources on each of the islands in the Galapagos. Natural selection favored physical adaptations that fit the environment. For example longer and narrow beaks were more suitable for eating insects. Short and narrow beaks were suitable for eating nuts and seeds. Returning now to the concept of design. Buildings like Darwin's finches have lots of form and function goals. Natural selection is a process that promotes useful adaptation. If we apply it to our building design problem the idea may lead to better form and function in our building and community designs. To do so let's explain how this process works. Natural selection operates on populations. Within populations individuals vary in trade expression like neck length. Trade expression is within genes and DNA and is heritable passed from parent to offspring. Trade expression affects individual fitness and the likelihood that an individual survives and reproduces. I can't reach any leaves. I can reach some leaves. I can reach all the leaves. The most fit survive and reproduce. The least fit do not. Beneficial traits increase more often while least beneficial traits decrease. Genetic changes ensure new trait expressions occur and the process of natural selection repeats again and again. We can express natural selection mathematically and as an optimization problem. That is how to make something the best it can be. We can calculate and describe how to maximize the individual fitness of an organism through the variations in the genetic traits. Different expressions of the trait long or short necks can be thought of as potential solutions to our modeling problem. A population all with different traits represents many solutions. Using the fitness of each asking is it the best it can be allows us to compare and judge. We can select the best solutions combine or emphasize the finest parts of the strongest solutions and we can create a new population of potential solutions and like nature we can repeat the math modeling again and again. So how might we apply such a natural selection process to creating a building. In architecture diversity in form and function is goal-driven. For example our goals might be to create an aesthetically pleasing functional sustainable net zero energy building at a reasonable cost. In designing our building we have many variables dimensions of length width and height aspects and orientations of walls northeast south and west number size and location of windows the ratio of window area to wall area insulation thickness of walls construction methods and more efficiency rating of glass and windows and roof thickness. Each of these variables influences the amount of heating and cooling needed to maintain a comfortable living temperature and low annual energy consumption. Other factors are cost to build and how desirable it is to live and work in the building. All these values influence how close we are to our goal to create an aesthetically pleasing functional sustainable net zero energy building at a reasonable cost. Architects and engineers use math models to describe how our different goals are influenced by building choices. Often one choice favors one part of our goal over others. It is a challenge to meet all goals equally. Energy efficiency can be achieved by increasing insulation driving heat loss and peak thermal load down but building costs up. With so many variables and needs in our goal math solutions are not enough. The Galapagos Finches took generations upon generations in adapting. Using our math model of natural selection and the power of computers we can simulate natural selection in seconds. Genetic algorithms are computer programs that are designed to imitate natural selection. These programs allow us to compare masses of alternate designs and select those that best achieve our goals. We can emphasize and combine design elements to produce new building variations allowing us to replicate the many possible adaptations and natural selection process easily and quickly. We can apply natural selection design through genetic algorithms to a group of buildings to a community. A well-designed building flourishes within a population. A community of well-designed buildings interact and influence the health of the entire population of buildings and so on. The more complex the design problem the more that genetic algorithms can help us consider a variety of solutions. Computational thinking is much more than mathematics and computing requiring inspiration, creativity and informed decision inspired by nature. It is ultimately rooted in design. So we're going to be providing our statements to these two provocations of how we came to be involved with an interdisciplinary OER and what did we find most thought-provoking about the process you experienced. So I think James you're you're starting that off a little bit. So I came to this through trying to think of how best to explain this. So at the time I was chair for the Center of Science or and had been in discussions with PIMS and Colistil around these ideas and so it was decided that we had this nugget of an idea and could we make turn it into anything. Right away I sort of wanted it to expand beyond just computational thinking in the traditional sense and knew that I wanted to take this sort of broader whole systems approach but also right away knew I was in over my head and needed more people to help and I think that's what I found most thought provoking about the experience was how do you take something like computational thinking, move away from just teaching coding or whatnot and try and open it up to a broader audience and maybe hit students who haven't really thought about it in a way that would bring them in and actually find out that they're interested in and enjoy the topic. And so that was my most sort of thought provoking intrigue I guess with this this whole project and so knowing that I knew like I said I needed more help and so I broadcast it out and the first thing being at AU knowing that we have such great educators to work with and with such expertise in open education and whatnot that's where I went and so I was lucky enough that I because to be quite honest I didn't know who to contact I just sort of broadcast like I'm interested in doing this and I was lucky enough that Connie responded so I'll pass it off to Connie now. Yeah and so I was very excited because I'm curious but a lot of time after a meeting I just go okay I'd say to my husband we're talking genitovate not genitovate computational thinking I'm not a computer scientist I don't know what I'm doing with those people like it was it was very intimidating a lot of time but they were very welcoming and I always felt that my background in high school teaching high school students in lots of different places actually Northern Alberta Northern British Columbia and indigenous populations and places also in rural Southern Alberta I felt that I kind of understood to some degree the target audience right these high school students and how are you going to catch their attention hold it and have something that's going to be able to allow them to enter into some really quite sophisticated thinking and yet not be overwhelmed and you know the animation was always considered the jewel there's a lot of Stella may talk a little bit more about some of the coding lessons that were developed but so that's how I came I'm curious I'm a learner and I really think we need to work at breaking down those barriers between the silos and a publisher probably would never create this is it be like no that would be just like we won't you know it's just way easier to stay in our lane do our math resources do our biology resources do our computational thinking resources and Callisto has been very interested about actually breaking down those barriers and they had a couple of presentations maybe a couple of people attended that but so that's how I came it was through the invitation of James and then from that others joined and so I'll pass the mic over to Trevor who's on the telephone hey Trevor you're up if you can hear I'll give this a go Trevor I when I joined the project and James and Connie had already made a start and I was brand new to you so I had this wonderful gift of a little bit of time because I wasn't embedded yet I had some project management background and I thought oh well at the very least I can bring that but it turned out that actually I have a little bit of biology background from my own undergraduate degree as well as genetic algorithm training and AI background too so it turned out it was quite a good fit and the time was an amazing gift that I could give and we what we did with this I think is we break managed to braid information together in a micro sense in terms of looking at it from a different curricular points of view and I really love the idea of joined up thinking so I was very happy to join one of the things I found most thought provoking was though that I did expect the different knowledge perspectives to come in but what I didn't really expect was the diversity of people's processes from different disciplines so it's interesting because myself and James and Trevor are all in the same faculty of science and technology but we all have very different approaches to working with our students and our disciplines all work in a different way and obviously Connie is from humanities and social science and education and so practice education works in one way and humanities and social science works in another way and education in academic area works in another different way and so that sort of mix of process was one of the most interesting pieces for me and I think we learned quite a lot in this and in fact Connie and I went off and and have done another video OER off the back of this experience and some of the things that we learn so the diversity was very important I think one of the other things that was really remarkable was when it's such a large diverse group at the beginning we had a big influx you saw our list of initial contributors what we found was that although there was a lot of interest there was very little engagement and I think you know it comes to this time gift people have to really be serious about whether they're going to be involved with an OER and I also heard somebody speak earlier in the week that there is a good size for an OER when you're developing and the more people you have the harder it is to keep them involved and keep them contributing and they were recommending around a four or five well we were very lucky because we had two RAs one that was a practice educator and one that was a computer science person so they did a lot of the work with us so we were a team of six in essence and so that was quite a good that was quite a good learning was you need a lot of perspectives and to keep it open and find a funnel to accept ideas but the core group needs to have sort of some motion the other thing is that the values that we set were really important for the project and that I would encourage the idea to set values so once we had done that even our production company who made the video bought into the values that we had set so the values were openness collaboration and cooperation and empowerment and the empowerment piece was very important and the in that it was not just about bringing your own cooperation but it was empowering others so we had a lot of yes and conversations and a lot of conversations around well you know what do you think from that point of view if you had that problem what would you do in your process in your domain so then there's a lot more to the interdisciplinarity of it than just different knowledge bases and the team values helped guide us pull together the other thing was we also tried to keep our audience in sight at the whole time which is a tenant of good communication but it's something that needs not get lost in this sort of big mix of what there is now one of the major we're going to move on to some provocations here but one of the major reflections about this is creating an OER like this is actually really quite expensive so you've got a group of people involved you've got a big group contributing but you've got a core group and so one of the things that I think we do in today's societies we look to reduce the cost of producing something but in a way and with this project and the other project what we did was we tried to lean into if it's going to cost that much to make a quality resource what we need to do is make a resource that is of substantial quality that is sustainable and it will move forward so in this and the other project that we did the videos act as an anchor or you know they provide that sort of basis from which you can hang other very specific OERs they have a breadth of knowledge across them which allows you to link up different ideas and so there is if you find funding it's worth leaning into an anchoring resource knowing that you can then put other pieces with it as you go along and find other resources that you want to link to it and I think that sort of connectedness is important so this drives us to our sort of first question that we then came up with is if we're going to do have these deeper complex quality resources what what do they now allow us to do if we create something that has got more depth more hooks how do we need to think differently about education and the resources that educators use so Cable Green spoke about embracing open as a future mechanism to challenge pay systems this would be one way to help bring those resources that are truly open together and a number of speakers have talked about the value in creating OER as an investment like not just creating it as a cost but thinking and reframing it and creating it as an investment so if we were take to take that frame of reference that this is an investment what else could we do with these resources that we haven't previously been able to do so I don't know whether Connie or James or well probably not Trevor because it's a bit complicated but whether either of you have got some thoughts on that provocation question that you'd like to chip in well I think you know as a program co-chair we've been working very hard throughout in trying to bring together all the different keynotes but also through the presentations the action labs etc there's been many people saying in different ways how do we want to use Kayla Larson's image there of hand back hand forward I think was the order of it so kind of using the some of the strengths from the history that you know of where we're at in open and OER but also kind of again looking forward because some of these issues that we're facing really require probably some different ways of perspective taking on these problems and helping people come into them in different ways so that they don't feel like that's only for the scientists to solve or that's only for the philosophers to solve or that's only for you know I might not maybe I don't have a lot of education and so I feel like I can't contribute to anything because I don't understand so much and so in a way having things that are open and accessible I think that it helps people recognize that at certain places people are interested and curious about things and you can you cannot anticipate or really ever really know for sure who your true target our audience is so I think you design to be best for who you think but anticipate that there may be some learners somebody curious maybe you know somebody who's 70 could watch our video and learn something right so it's not that it's only for high school students and I think that's also the power of the animation is that it's colorful it moves along there's the narrative and I always felt that there and the animation company would tell us to okay you know they had their little rules as well and it was like four minutes that's the you know like three and a half four minutes that's really how long you want an animation to be and I was like well we can't I mean I guess we could have three or four four three or four minute animations but we packed it all in there like and as a teacher you could access it differently like it's not just press play and watch it all the all the way through once right you could watch one clip and just like that at that actually I could teach that animation for a whole semester probably and you would just sort of dive in deeper into different parts but so it's sometimes thinking about like I say hand back and hand forward how can we take what we know that's working from the past but also start to think differently about how do we pull together some systems thinking because there is not a lot of systems thinking in K to 12 education especially but also in higher ed you have it in certain programs and then that's it it's like there's only systems thinking for some people but not for everybody so that's what I think is we could think differently about education I could go on but I'm gonna pass the mic yeah I think for me you know it comes back to those ideas around whole systems and systems thinking and in the idea of when we teach of breaking down those silos showing that there are connections between all these different fields of study that we engage in and this I think you know coming from my background so I'm a mathematician and I I'm a mathematical modeler but my origins were actually in biology that's where I started as an undergraduate and I had zero appreciation for mathematics until probably my third or fourth year as an undergraduate student in which I came to natural selection and started seeing models of natural selection and how they were used in biology and then suddenly I was like oh math does have value it does have a reason and that caused me to to move into graduate studies and mathematics and from there as you sort of branch out you see more and more application and more and more connection so I've worked in health research and health services and various ways and so I'm very because of my background in my story I think I'm sort of really in tune with the fact that right away in our education system we can create barriers and push people out of knowledge areas simply because of the way we teach certain things and mathematics is really one of those fields for sure it's very algorithmic it's you know you get it right or you get it wrong there's not a lot of discussion about the beauty of it or the meaning of it or its applications and so for me it's I think there's this real value in looking at how what we learn is connected and the challenge of that though is that all of our resources and all the way that we design curriculums is very siloed we learn biology we learn physics we learn chemistry way over here we learn social studies they're not connected but are they connected well maybe they are well so so one of the things like when I look at this project there's the connections between subjects and there's how you would scale it up and down and how you could even broaden the connection so to use this as an example we really focused on the natural sciences and connected it to this building or this problem of sustainable design but sustainable design is connected to a lot of other problems and we could have breached out into the social sciences and there can and when I talked about the rich curriculum connections to the high school curriculum I think there's the potential to do that as well so if you think about sustainable design well then you bring in all of the human elements to housing as a right the need for affordable housing in the and the value of affordable housing in all communities what does that bring forward the implications for health and population health and when you start bringing in those questions well we can start talking about policy design so we come back to this idea of design and when you start talking about policy design then you start talking about analysis again and you come back full circle to computational thinking and modeling and simulation and and these are all things that are being done and so we can we can make these we can always make these connections between the different subject matters I think they're there when we deal with systems as complex as human systems those connections are there so going back to the idea of scaling these you get into some pretty complex ideas pretty quickly and so one of the things I think we need to think about what in terms of education and the resources we create are also how those resources will scale up and they'll scale down so we created a video that we thought you know sort of hit that high school target audience but I think you know could I use this in my undergraduate courses I think absolutely sort of the video is intended to create sort of an overarching narrative but if I'm teaching a course on mathematical modeling I think this video could serve as sort of the basis for that and then you know there's all these different connections that we can go in and talk about and if we're going to do mathematical modeling well what are the different problems that we could look at and how are we gonna solve it using methods such as you know adaptive dynamic methods like a genetic algorithms so I guess you know the danger of these panels is that you start rambling on which I feel like maybe I'm doing that to summarize I think one thing I'd like to really see with the change in how educational resources are created is that they get smaller in their size in terms of pieces of information so that they can be pieced together as in multiple different ways easily by essentially creators who are the educators who want to teach in different ways or teach about whole systems or maybe you just want to teach about biology but then you grab all the biology pieces but maybe you want to do something bigger and you can grab all these other pieces and so that's a shift I think I would really have value Connie you know sort of alluded to Lego and I think that's an approach that that has great value do we want to try and give Trevor well yeah so James has in his in his rambling sorry not rambling though has moved on to the second provocation which is if can we expand though we are into spaces that are new yet needed so areas that we haven't so I guess Trevor there's an opportunity for you to add in here if you would like all right Trevor if you're there we're going to be a chance to speak to the second provocation here and I'll give you the thumbs up to indicate that we can hear you you probably want new building thanks Trevor so for me just building off what James and Trevor have said I think one of the things that we managed to do in this resource and to some extent accidentally is to realize how valuable the hooks are so within the piece that you create you can leave deliberate hooks for other people to hang content from and so there's a structure there that's easier to engage with in terms of a remix or a reuse or in addition to what what is there for reuse and you know they the I'm trying to think of what hasn't been said and so so that allows for different perspectives to be added to the overarching resource so it's either an anchor or it's a springboard or it's a storytell but it what it does is provide that openness to get people initially engaged and then it allows the educator to choose where they want to put their focus and how deep they want to go so it's an incredibly flexible resource in in following what James said about the pieces that can be added can be smaller if you're very conscious about how you make the initial piece and it doesn't have to be a video it could be something else but the hooks that you put in it and the possibility of placing things within there so for instance in this one we had a Jupiter notebook with our wonderful RA Lilliana created a genetic algorithm and students could go in and alter values within that and understand how the parameters worked in running a genetic algorithm they could code one themselves if they wanted but I also saw colleagues eyes glaze over an absolute horror come when I said well you know there's the code is there you just press go and they're like well which button is that and so what I did was for students who are computer phobic in the sense of gubbins computing not you know Instagram I created a game that you could play like a physical game where you are the genetic algorithm and the people in the class are given a parameter about how they move you know and and they you act out and you move across the room and satisfy the conditions for the for getting the correct chromosome to come up and so you can make the hook one hook serve multiple purposes for different learners at different levels or with different neurodiversity and then you can also pin it on to other policy that's out there so the UN SDGs you can relate those to what you've got in there and hook those on so you can connect out to existing platforms and so I think by thinking of the investment in that first OER piece as an investment and as a frame for hanging other OERs from it allows it to be way more useful may or flexible and familiarity of one piece then bring brings more use of pieces I think just touching on redistribution I think this is one of the areas that we struggled with most and we made it open so that's fine we have it on two places that's fine at a macro level that's actually hard like how do we get this to the right audience how do we make people available and aware that it's there but for the future I also think there's a micro level of redistribution that doesn't really happen and what's what's going on there is that that we need people who are using OERs to recommend OERs and we need to get educators talking to other educators about oh well here's this good value overarching piece that you could maybe apply there so for the K to 12 curriculum it's obvious to see with side breaking down silos to solve big real world problems in a context that students could engage with but that micro level redistribution I think is also really important for the future of OERs to breed sort of familiarity and break down those barriers of just not knowing how to use them effectively and in a timely way so I'm not sure that we really need a summer no I think we're probably pretty good maybe just move to that one yeah I wanted to just mention you saw the QR code in OG OEG connect there's a conversation going on about our interdisciplinary project so if you're interested there was someone from England who shared her PhD thesis in interdisciplinary and systems thinking so we did try to tie in to OEG connect as well so just you know this idea that it's very complex it's there's many moving parts but really if I had to say one thing just go out there and try like risk it and and Callisto wanted that was one of their requirements was that whatever was created would be openly licensed but when sometimes when there's calls for all sorts of projects like the second one the follow-up that Stella and I did that was through the Canadian funding from the funding from the trice tri agencies here in Canada but there was no requirement from the government to say that it had to be openly licensed but there they also said you know you can't so we just you know if it's if it's something that you're applying for make it open even if they don't really ask for it to be open right and that's something that can be negotiated and so I think we're going to contact Cable Green and the organizations that he was listing because sometimes too when you're innovating you can be actually ahead of when like you can like innovation sometimes occurs before it's really ready right like so when you're ahead of the curve I'm not saying that this is necessary the case with our project but at a certain level I believe it is true that in some ways certainly our approach and the topic and trying to bring things together is sometimes a little bit of head ahead of when it's really going to be taken up or noticed and that an OER can live out for a long time and in other words risk it try have some fun because we did we had a lot of fun you know when we even talked about the panel I said oh the the band's back together and we had lots of fun and that's you know like we it's like we don't want to talk about that but it's it's really an important part it's part of the reinforcement of the good work that we're trying to do and share out so I know everyone's tired ready for a nice lunch and I just thank you all for coming today