 I would like to say good morning to everyone this morning and welcome to day 11 meeting of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. We have no apologies for today's meeting. Our first item of business is a decision to take agenda items 4 and 5 in private. Are we all agreed? Yes. Thank you. Our next item of business is an evidence session about the cost of living crisis and is impact on lone parents. The session is in a round table format and follows on from last week's session when we heard from organisations representing disabled people and unpaid carers. I'd like to welcome everyone, and we have in the room Martin Canavan, head of policy and participation, Aberlare Children's Charity. James Dunbar, chief executive of Newstart Highland, Kara Hilton, policy and public affairs manager, Scotland Trussell Trust. Kirstie McEchnie, early warning system project manager, Scotland child poverty action group, Scotland. Satwan Rehman, chief executive officer for one parent's families, Scotland and Fiona King, senior policy and public affairs manager, Save the Children. Joining us remotely is Morag Hanna, chief executive officer from Sky and Le Calche Citizens Advice Bureau and Laura Miller, strategic manager from Fife Gingerbreads. Thank you all for joining us today. We have again this week chosen around table format facility a free flowing conversation, so the committee is very much in listening mode today. Please feel free to indicate to me when you want to come in. If you are attending online, please pop a we are in the chat box and I'll bring you in. We have three themes today. I will kick off with the first theme, then invite Miles Briggs to introduce the second theme and Katie Clark for theme 3. We have approximately 30 minutes for each discussion, so let's start off with theme 1, which focuses on how the increase of the cost of living has affected lone parents. We are interested to hear more about how things have changed for lone parents in the last year and what particular issues have had a greater impact on lone parent families. Also, if you can pick on where there are gaps in our knowledge and if you are aware of any research being undertaken on the issue, that would be really useful too. I will kick off and I will have that open discussion and we are all ears sat in it. Thank you very much first and foremost to the committee for having this focus on single parents and the cost of living crisis. I just wanted to say a wee bit to start off with, there was some very good information in the SPICE briefing for this, giving the profile of single parents and I think it's important for me just to summarise some of that because that indicates what some of the issues are that we are having to address and why the impact has been so significant for single parents. I think that one of the things that we are really keen to point out is the fact that there has been a series of cumulative issues through austerity, the pandemic and then the cost of living crisis which exacerbated the situation for single parent families. What we are seeing is an impact materially on the family circumstances but also in terms of physical and mental health of both the children and the parents. The issues for this are manifold and there is a lot of structural issues with how the labour market is working, employment that is on offer, the way services are structured and the greater reliance on services that many single parent families have because they have the sole responsibility for caring and earning. From the summit yesterday, one of the things that came out which we hear a lot about from the single parents is the incoherence in the way services are organised and delivered and the impact that that has on families. In terms of single parents, the vast majority of single parents have become single parents through a relationship breakdown. 80 per cent of single parents speak about experiencing discrimination and attitudes and assumptions that are made about them. They are more likely to live in deprivation and they are more likely to live in deprived areas in the most deprived desile. In terms of paid work, which is often seen as a route out of poverty, although the in-work poverty stats we have show that not to be the case for many families, but for single parents who are not in work, they are more likely to have low enough access to services that are not available to many families, but for single parents who are not in work, they are more likely to have lower-note qualifications, less likely to hold a driving licence and less likely to be in health that is good or very good. If we are looking at the priority family groups and the child poverty act, there is a 40 per cent overlap between single parent families and those where either the adult or the child is disabled. You have seen compounding factors in terms of inequalities that families are having to cope with. This profile is important because it points us in the direction of the policy actions that would be the most effective in reducing single parent poverty. For each of the priority family groups and the child poverty act, there are the general causes of poverty and the specifics of each of the priority groups. We think that that is really keen and important when we are looking to see how do we respond to that? The Living Without a Lifeline report, which was referenced in the invitation to this meeting, this round table, was our research with single parents on the cost of living crisis. At that point, it showed that three in five single parents are finding it either extremely difficult to afford or could no longer afford electricity. Almost 60 per cent said the same about gas, and almost 44 per cent said the same about food. More than one in five parents said that they could no longer afford to buy clothes, pay for travel or for childcare. One in ten single parent households were in unmanagable debt, which is higher than any other household type. Part of the reason why there is this disproportionate impact is the pre-existing inequalities that there have been. Since then, we do bi-monthly impact reports, which are sort of topic-based for single parents. The key findings in terms of what has changed is debt. There is a big concern that single parent families are having around debt. We are not seeing any issues abating, so I cannot come here with a good news story for you other than the fact that single parent families are extremely resilient and creative in how they make do with very little. That is something that is really important for the committee to note. However, they have been hit by this economic storm. Like I said, the vast majority of women, so we really are seeing the fact that there was a gendered impact of Covid and that coming through into an exacerbated gendered impact of the cost of living. Energy costs and prepaid metres were big issues that came up. Things that we can look at seeing how we address. Like I spoke, many are supporting disabled children or have disabilities themselves. Those families were particularly vulnerable to the cost of living crisis because of the additional costs that they face. I will stop there, sorry, otherwise I will keep on forever. Thank you very much for your comments. They are pretty stark, but there are really interesting comments that we will take on board. Thank you for that. I believe that Morag Hanna would like to come in. Good morning everyone. The cost of living crisis continues to squeeze all household budgets and I am not sure whether the committee has seen the record levels of demands that the latest data report found in March for Citizens Advice Bureau has helped more than 100,000 times in March. It is the highest on record for the individual pieces of advice given in over three and a half years. Then looking at that in March, it is normally food bank advice again, so it is showing the poverty levels and how people are needing to access the food. If I may give an example, which might sum up why people are coming to cab and an example of a lone parent in Skagglash, we had a single parent of two children living in a very remote area struggling with the increased food costs, very limited competition. We do not have the various supermarkets, so it is a one supermarket in the area. Access to the local food bank being an hour's drive away, so it is not a case of being able to just jump into a car or a public transport. In fact, regarding the public transport, there is only one school bus in the morning that you can get and then you can get the school bus on the way home at three o'clock, so then you will be stuck in the village all day, so it is probably not acceptable for her. That is the only service that she has to reach the GP, the supermarket and indeed the Citizens Advice Bureau, local authorities, et cetera, for help. The client was working part-time. He could not increase hours due to the lack of childcare provision in the area, which is very limited. He was in a multiple-debt situation with priority debts including rent and council tax areas, and she had significant electricity areas with legal action notices being served in her for eviction. Through various appointments, once she made that contact with the Citizens Advice Bureau, we used the one-named adviser approach, building on that trust and relationship between the adviser and the client. It is vital that lone parents do not feel judged. You can build up on that trust, especially in smaller communities where they may be worried about confidentiality. It is really important that they know that everything they tell us is treated in the strictest of confidence. It was established that the client had never claimed child benefit before by having two children. She did not know that that was an entitlement. She did not know about council tax and co-locupancy. She did not know about council tax reduction. She did not know about universal credit claims. It was presumed because she was working part-time that she was not entitled to any benefits. An initial assessment showed that she may also qualify for the adult disability payment due to her health needs. Obviously, the cab adviser assisted with the Scottish child payment. That followed once due to the universal credit claim. She had never heard of the Scottish child payment before. That was an additional help coming into her household at the income. The one named adviser that was assisting her was an approved money advice worker accredited through the Scottish national standards. That adviser was able to steer the client through the sequestration process through the map route, as she had debts of over £21,000. Initially, when somebody approaches us, you do not find out the whole story. It is all about building that trust relationship with them. Once they know that they are not being judged, the more they will disclose having the debts of over £21,000, being a lone parent, not having a family, not having a partner to share that burden with, causing her mounting stress for her. It was agreed that sequestration was the best option for her, with no disposable income. The adviser was able to obtain a grant through the Home Heating Support Fund. That was for £1,600. That was to help her with on-going electricity costs. All went forward. The sequestration was approved for the debts written off. In relation to the unclaimed benefits that were amounted for that one client, an actual gain of over £16,000. Unfortunately, the adult disability payment is not yet known. The application was started on 6 December, so we are still waiting on that decision. It is still on-going, but we are hopeful that decision will come through and that will be additional money coming into her household as well. I think that it would be fair to say that a lot of her stress was alleviated going through the whole process, but I guess what I was trying to say today is that it is building up that trust relationship between a one-named adviser and the client really does help. The cab almost being a one-stop shop being able to deal with the rent arrears, the electricity arrears, the mounting debts, access to food, energy and just being there to support her through that process. Thank you, Mordig. Thanks for sharing that story of that family who live in a remote community. It also sounds like they have been completely isolated as well in their lack of awareness of what benefits are available to them. Thank you for that. I'm worried now bringing in Kara Hilton. Thanks, convener. You don't need to press anything. Thank you to the committee for the focus on the cost of living crisis, because it certainly is having a devastating impact on the people that our network supports across Scotland. We released our annual food bank parcel stats last week, and they found that there has been the busiest ever period for our network in Scotland and, indeed, across the UK since the Trusill Trust began. We have seen a 30 per cent increase in the number of families in Scotland who needed to use a food parcel. In our alarmingly, 90,000 of those parcels were for children. That's the most parcels that our network has ever provided for children in Scotland. That's up 24 per cent on last year, up 57 per cent on five years ago. We've seen more and more people having to use food banks in Scotland for the very first time. An extra 62,000 people in Scotland need to use a food bank for the first time last year. I'm told that's more than you could squeeze into Hamden stadium, but not being a football fan. I couldn't verify if that's the case or not. When we look at our parcel stats, even though they are not broken down by the type of family our previous research published in spring 2021, State of Hunger, found that single parents of families with three or more children were much more likely to need to use a food bank in Scotland. A quarter of food parcels distributed by our network in Scotland go to families with three or more children. When you look at the general population, there are only 7 per cent of families who have three or more children. Almost one in four of our parcels go to a lone parent household. One of the most staggering things is that 70 per cent of parcels go to people who have a disability or live with someone who does. That shows you the scale of the situation that we face. We're going to be publishing some research on this next month called Hunger in Scotland, so we'll share those findings with the committee when we do. Essentially, the cost of living crisis has been devastating because the families that our food bank support have already been cutting back on everything. They've already made every saving possible. They're not just choosing now between heating and eating. They're having to cut back on both, as Satwat talked about already. People just don't have enough money to afford even the bare essentials. They can't afford to buy their kid a warm winter coat. They can't afford shoes. They can't afford to travel to work. The average person that's coming to one of our food banks, when you think about the scale of the increase in need at the moment, they're living on just £8 a day after housing costs. They've absolutely nowhere left to turn and we know that the cost of living crisis is having a huge impact because we know that the costs that affect the lowest income households are rising disproportionately. The cost of food is up 19 per cent, but the cost of basic food items such as bread, cheese, pasta, some of those costs have more than doubled. People are really at breaking point. It's really heartbreak in some of the sort of stories that we are hearing at our food banks. It's people who can't afford food, but they can't afford to use a cooker. They can't afford to keep the fridge turned on. It's just staggering that we're having to do things like change the hours that food banks open so that they fit around the working day because more and more people work or having to use a food bank or having to give out more kettle packs because people can only heat food from a kettle rather than a cooker. In every community in Scotland we're seeing the devastating impact. One of the things that worries us most is that we know that this is just the tip of the iceberg, someone that's coming to a Trusill Trust food bank. That is the absolute last option. There's many tens of thousands, thousands of thousands, and there's more people across Scotland who are accessing food larders, pantries who simply don't have enough money for the essentials. We would say that this doesn't just reflect the current cost of living crisis. It isn't just the impact of the pandemic. It's the fact that the social security system that we have here in Scotland and across the UK just doesn't provide people with enough money to live on. Too many people are in work that is precarious. It doesn't provide enough hours, enough income. There isn't enough flexible or affordable childcare that fits around the working day. I'm sad that I addressed the issue very well about the particular challenges that single parents face. It's just simply because they just don't have enough income to meet the essential costs. We need to be exploring all options to reduce costs, to maximise incomes, and to look at things such as a lone-parent premium to top up the Scottish child payment. Things that we could do in Scotland with the powers that Holyrood has to make people's lives easier and to increase people's incomes because we know that it's cash in people's pockets that will make the difference. That's probably enough for me. I'll pass on to the next question. No, thanks. Kara, and even from my constituency, I've spoken to several constituents who used to donate to the food banks, who are now using them as well. That's a stark reality of it, so thank you for sharing that information. The next person we're going to bring in is Martin Canavan. Thanks very much, convener. Again, thank you to the committee for inviting us along to give evidence today. I'm probably going to be building on a bit of a theme in terms of what we've heard already. I'm keen to be able to represent and reflect not just what we are seeing in our work but also what parents have told us, some in their own words, and I'll share some of that with you this morning. For those of you who don't know, Aberlour, one of the things that we do is we deliver our urgent assistance fund, which is a hardship fund, which is accessible to all low-income families across Scotland, not necessarily those who already have contact with Aberlour or supported by Aberlour. I think I've given evidence to this committee before about the use of that fund and the impact and demand on that fund particularly since the time of the pandemic. That hasn't relented, understandably, over the last period and in the last year. Just to give you a little bit of top-line information about how the fund has responded specifically to single parents across Scotland and have supported families across 31 out of 32 local authorities through the fund across Scotland. Since April 2021, we've distributed over £1 million in small grants to families, single-parent families in financial crisis across Scotland through our fund. Nearly two thirds of the total number of families supported through our urgent assistance fund are single-parent families, which are disproportionately represented in terms of the families that we support, which gives an illustration of the level of deep financial crisis that so many single-parent families are facing. That's around 3,000 families, which equates to about 5,500 children across Scotland that I believe have supported in that time. In more than 90 per cent of those cases, single-parent families that we support are mums, which is consistent with the national statistics. In 80 per cent of those families, the parent is unemployed, and therefore relies entirely on benefits for their income. The majority of single-parent families supported through our urgent assistance fund are young parents, under 25, which speaks to some of the particular issues around discrepancies, income and value of income that single-parent families under 25 receive in terms of universal credit. The main reasons for referral and requests for help and support that we see at Aberlour through our urgent assistance fund more than half, 51 per cent, of referrals are for help and assistance to buy children's clothing. 38 per cent is for food, families who are really affected by food insecurity. 33 per cent is around a third for families who need help and support to pay their utilities, essential bills. 22 per cent is help with bedding, beds, mattresses for the children to be able to sleep. And 16 per cent are for families who are in real dire straits in relation to debt and to help support families with problem debt. That doesn't tell us the whole story though about debt and I'm going to say something more about debt in just a second and I know that's a theme that we've already begun to touch on. But just to illustrate the point or to give a little bit more of an insight from one of our parents who we spoke to in advance of coming along to this session this morning. One mum that we support up in Murray, who's a single parent of three, wanted to share her experience and if the committee's okay, I'd be keen to share a short extract from that. So in her words, the cost of living is hard and stressful for a two parent family and little did I know when we split up the pressures ahead that I face as a single parent family every day. A single parent family has to carry everything on their shoulders alone. We've nobody to share the load. Yes, we may have support of parents and friends, however, when things develop into more than just a nod of favour, shifting into a regular theme and dependency, we catch ourselves and we stop asking as we value our relationships as equal. This is very important to be treated with respect and as an equal. It seems that the very basics are far out of reach for me and mine at the moment. Things are not getting any better. I go to my friend's house for a cuppa, we're always made to feel very welcome, loved and wanted, they know the score. We don't meet at a cafe any more. I couldn't afford to pay for that. I can't afford to buy packets of biscuits. If I did, my children would eat them all. They are not thinking about tomorrow and why should they. I can't afford the extra sugar and milk it costs and never mind the cost of boiling the kettle. I know my children quietly worry about things well beyond their control. I try hard for them not to know the pressures but it's difficult to keep turning them down when their friends are doing something and I can't afford for them to join in. I tend to batch, cook and freeze my meals. I try my hardest not to buy processed foods when they're so much cheaper than fresh and making from scratch. Batch, cooking days are good, hard working couple of days and busy the kitchen door is left open and that helps to keep the house. I don't like using the oven unless I'm batch, cooking. I don't buy the best meat or vegetables. Fruit is a luxury. I can't afford any brand names. I'm conscious about the lack of vegetables. I nutrients and my children are eating and are certainly not eating the recommended portions every day. I use toothpaste and cleaning detergents sparingly. Once the cooking is all done I worry about having enough to pay for the electricity and keep the freezer on. I have the hot water on a strict certain time. So if you ever come to my house and see dirty dishes in the sink that day I'm not being lazy. It's because I'm being frugal. I could go on but I think that maybe brings into some stark relief the direct impact of the cost of living and the circumstances that we're talking about for many of the families. Not just at Aberlour or the Aberlour supporters but across Scotland. In terms of Aberlour's work some of you may be aware and we've given evidence this committee before that debt, specifically public debt and I mentioned that debt is a key referral reason for families accessing support from our urgent assistance fund. However we've also been delivering a pilot service in Tayside over the last year or so supporting families through our Family Financial Wellbeing project which is specifically supporting families who have unmanagable levels of problem debt. It's part of our extended family support the practical support and emotional support that we offer families. This is in addition offering welfare advice helping support to access entitlements and where possible and where necessary looking to write off some of those unmanagable debts for families. We supported lots of families through that project and many of them haven't acquired to have their debts written off once we've done all that welfare advice and helping support but for those families that have gone all the way through our project in the last year half of them have been single parent families. The total cumulative amount of support that we've provided through our project in the last year the total debt relief has been £38,500 and that's supported families to write off on average around £2,700 for those families. Around 90% of those debts were public debts council tax and rent arrears what we would call involuntary debts and so I think that begins to build a picture and illustrate what we've said before to this committee and said in other spaces is that understanding the issue of the debt and the context of debt is really important to understand and recognise that in most cases and overwhelmingly we see this in the families that we support at Aberlawer single parent families included is that debts that the families are burdened with are public debt. I'm going to pause there because I know other people probably won't want to come in but happy to build on that theme or coming at another point. Thank you so much for sharing that story of that particular family and it's sad to hear of the pilot scheme that you're rolling out so thank you for sharing that information. Can I bring in Fiona King followed by Kirsty McKechnie? I think, as Martin said, that there's starting to chime the key themes from across the sector and I think that what's already been said I think it's really important that the committee do take away that there is a consistency here and that all of the organisations despite representing slightly different parts of the puzzle are experiencing the same things. We've heard really articulately that lone parents are disproportionately a risk of experiencing poverty across Scotland and the stats are bound but I think it's really important to understand that being a lone parent whilst you're disproportionately at risk of poverty your choices are diminished and I think that's an important part of the issues and why there does need to be a particular focus on lone parents because the choices that you have around your work pattern, your childcare options and your travel who can pick up your wrap around they are diminished at the time so it's a bit of a double whammy for lone parents and I think that lots of what's already been said and Martin articulated really, really powerfully individual case study of someone they've worked with but at Save the Children we're seeing very similar things so we also distribute emergency early years grants like many other sector organisations we're seeing around 70% of those go to lone parent families so that the national stats are born out in third sector stats that there is a disproportionate reliance on that emergency cash from lone parents because as Cara articulated so clearly they just have nowhere left to turn and again the vast majority are women and I think it does highlight the fact that we do have a fundamental inadequacy in incomes and that needs to be addressed so we also welcome the focus on cost of living and that's absolutely critical at the moment child poverty levels have been pretty static across Scotland predating the pandemic and the cost of living crisis so a lot of these families were already living on the very lowest incomes before the tsunami of everything that's happened in the last few years and so they have been living on very low incomes and cutting back and balancing really tight budgets and the cost of living crisis and really compounding those structural inequalities so we must focus on emergency crisis response but we also need to look at the longer term changes on how we're going to get Scotland to the place we want it to be which is a Scotland free of poverty where we're meeting those 2030 targets and less than 10% of children are experiencing poverty and we need to do that for the individuals involved and for the children but also for the outcomes of the children for the stress levels mental health and wellbeing of the parents but also at a society level the high levels of poverty that this country is experiencing it has a cost on all of us so the parents that we've been supporting and working with very similar to others but the main reason people are coming to us is for those basics and I think that point really needs to be hammered home this isn't about luxuries or days out or additional lectures mainly food children's shoes has become increasingly important and bedding so pretty low cost items but they don't have the cash to buy and I think the point about the stress on parents has been brought up but parents are saying to us things like the stress of always having to make up backs and assess what you can and can't afford is deeply affecting my mental health and that we hear that every time we speak to parents I really want to make the point that the system is still too complex I think that Morag really articulated in that case study how difficult it is to navigate the system you're dealing with UK benefits Scottish benefits, different pots of cash the third sector is to a certain extent filling a gap by providing lots of emergency grants and emergency relief but that's also complicated you're needing to work through the system and if you are a lone parent you're already doing everything on your own it is overwhelming and that's what we're hearing from the parents we're working with this is overwhelming and there's no end in sight so the kind of cumulative impact on parents is substantial but as say the children we're particularly concerned on the long shadow this is casting on children experiencing poverty we know that children the longer children experience poverty the greater and deeper the impacts can be and of course we need to not look at having issues of poverty in a silo because this is also about the attainment gap and the long term health and wellbeing of the children and I think that the current stats around the number of children in Scotland who are needing food parcels that should be a cause for great alarm to this Parliament because if that's increasing at the time when we're supposed to be moving towards a Scotland where we have very low levels of child poverty I think that really just underlines the fact that we need to do more and do it quicker to meet the targets but much more importantly to improve outcomes for children and give all children in Scotland an opportunity to grow and thrive in the way that I think we all would want them to so I think it's that complexity and a parent described it to us as a web and it's like trying to work your way through a web and piece it all together and I think I know we'll get into child care and employability and what maybe the specific policies are but I think it's not about more little pots and more funds and bits and bobs I think it must underline the importance of a cash first approach if we can get more cash into the families into the pockets of the families and the parents who need it they know their family, they know the choices they know their local area, they know the supermarkets they know their travel routes that's the best way to respond to parents and all parents are facing is to give more cash so they can have the choices and so I'm sure it will come up but I think one of the key things that could and should be done is to increase the value of the Scottish child payment to at least £40 a week rather than pots of cash and it's not about little bits and bobs it's more money in pockets so that those choices and actions can be taken so I'll leave it there but I think it's important that we Thanks very much, Fiona for the points that were really interesting I'm conscious of the time I know it, we set us at a 30 minute slot so I also want to bring everybody in so if you could be as succinct as possible Thank you Thank you I think everybody has teed me up really nicely just to add in the extra point about why lone parents were so exposed to the cost of living crisis in the first place we know that 24 per cent of children in Scotland are in poverty and for lone parents households that increases to 38 per cent that was talked about what the reasons for that are no seconderner, more likely to be working part-time availability of childcare costs all of those structural things but all of those things also mean that lone parents are more likely to need to supplement their income through social security and between 2013 and 2020 benefits were either frozen this is a UK benefits such as universal credit or tax credits they were either frozen or the increases were capped at 1 per cent so by the time we went into the pandemic the value of benefits in terms of what they covered was much lower than it had been at the beginning of the decade so as the cost of living had gone up over the decade the value of the benefits hadn't so even as we were going into the pandemic the value of the benefits was much lower than it had been a decade before and we know that from some of our early warning system case evidence that for the lowest income families the cost of living crisis isn't new we had already been receiving reports of lone parents who weren't eating just so that they could feed their children or not using power because they couldn't afford to for them the cost of living crisis isn't something new it's just that it's affecting more people and I think that lone parents were particularly exposed to the cost of living crisis because there just wasn't anything else to cut back on Thank you for that, Kirsty and I'm now going to bring in Laura Miller who's online and then following that it's James Dunbar and that ends the theme one and I'll pass on to Miles Briggs I'll make a really short point because I'm conscious of time but I think that the main thing that we're starting to see is a real increase in the stress and anxiety as a lone parent you're that main carer you're the main source of income however that income comes in the household and we are seeing a real change in that and compounding all those issues in households and it is driven by that constant budget in every penny and surviving and I think it's a really important point to make is that a lot of the families we're working with are really in survival mode and it's really focusing on the vital essentials that we've talked about today and I think as part of this conversation it has been touched on by colleagues is that we cannot lose sight of the fact that we have children and young people unable to live full rich lives and participate in their communities so we're seeing a lot of families where there's early years developmental delay isolation, the attainment cap play poverty unable to take part in hobbies and activities healthy diet so there's a real lack of proper participation in our communities and that's just the additional point that I'd just like to emphasise as part of the conversation that we don't lose sight of that Thank you Laura, I really appreciate that I'm now going to bring in James Thanks Thank you Thank you convener, thank you committee I will be really really brief One of the things we've noticed in Rural Highland is that there seems to be as there's more pressure on resources services that should be more person-centred or less person-centred and we're having the public sector more mindful of expense over a wrap around person-centred service and I think that's a really important point, I also agree with everything that's been said before so I don't have to say very much here but what we've seen is a lot of people who are single parents are finding themselves in a place of hopelessness and dropping into a place of almost wanting to avoid what's going on and some of our support workers are finding people with bundles of letters, some of these letters contain good news but the situation has become so difficult and has become so isolated that they're in a place of hopelessness and they're actually avoiding a dealing with a lot of things so I would agree with everything that's been said and I will keep my this contribution that brief Thank you I'm going to pass over to Miles now to commence with theme 2 That's great, thank you Camina, good morning everybody thank you for joining us here today I wanted to ask some questions with regards to current policies and I'll maybe ask them both at the same time so everybody has a chance to touch on them. The first is with regards to actions set out in the tackling child poverty delivery plan and whether or not you believe these need to be revisited given what we've heard already today with the rising cost of living challenge and then I'd also like to know if you could provide any examples of existing policies which are particularly effective and policies you think have been less effective we've obviously heard around child payment from many of you today but just wondering if we could gather that sort of information so happy whoever wants to kick off on that point we start from the beginning I was sort of hoping somebody else would start off this time and I'd say I agree with them absolutely Miles absolutely in terms of your first question with the delivery plan and do we need to revisit it I think it needs to be kept under constant review because the situation and the circumstances are changing but in general terms if we were wanting to look at how we revisited and refocused the plan I think we need to be more explicit about the links between child poverty and women's poverty and really build on that I know we're going to talk about employment and employability but actually we need to make it work for mothers and I know we've got the parent employability support programme that's out but at the moment the sort of generic approaches aren't providing the support that's required for single parent families and other priority family groups that there are childcare and I think we need to be looking at childcare as an enabler but also as a source of employment I think we need to be thinking about how we can make best use of and invest in the social infrastructure which provides employment opportunities but also the consistent support that's required by single parent families and I'd like to see stronger monitoring of actions and impact what's actually making the difference in the plan, what isn't what do we continue what do we need to roll back on and I've spoken earlier about the crossover between priority family groups so I think you need to look at this in an intersectional way what are the particular factors and I do think the Scottish child payment we see it as making a big difference to the families who are receiving it however the cost of living is outstripping it and the impact of it and that's why we would be supporting the call for there to be an increase to £40 per week per child but then within that it's important to look at what difference is that making to single parent families and as Cara spoke about it is there a premium we need on top of that if we're thinking about this in terms of equity it means we're not having to do the same for everyone but we need to look at the specifics of the circumstances the families and the priority family groups are in we think absolutely the cash first approach that's being adopted and the poverty in Scotland is the right thing and that's why an increase in Scottish child payment would make it so much simpler for families what Fiona spoke about in terms of the complexity of the landscape is something we hear about all the time and one of the parents that we worked with spoke about actually all her time is spent managing herself in poverty it's not about being able to lift themselves out of poverty it's about managing it a little bit here, a little bit there something here but actually then all your time is spent doing that childcare we would argue that from what we're hearing from single parents is that whilst the roll out is making a difference there are issues with availability accessibility and particularly flexibility of childcare that we need to be considering because many of the types of employment single parents go into tend to be entry level very little flexibility that suits the parent lots of flexibility required on the part of the employer and we don't have a childcare system with that level of flexibility built in to support them homelessness and housing I think are big issues that we need to be thinking about how we address if we're serious about tackling child poverty issues that have been commonly highlighted with unaffordable properties spiralling mortgage or rent increases bad credit cramped conditions poor living standards and poor standards of property maintenance so one of the things I think we need to be looking at and many others will have called for this is how we invest in social housing and actually meet the commitment that we've got on social housing and affordable housing in terms of employment one thing about employability and then I'll stop to give it an opportunity to others if we're looking at Fair Start Scotland for example the 2021 evaluation shows single parents were only 9% of those who'd joined Fair Start Scotland 2700 single parents had started with Fair Start Scotland over a three year period but only 200 were in paid work after that which begins to highlight some of the things we need to be changing looking at employability support and actually that type of cycling in and out of work is very typical among single parent families but it has the consequences of disruptions to benefits increasing the impact of debt repayments having to give up childcare arrangements put in place and paid for by universal credit which impacts on children's experiences as well as parents confidence so I think one of the things is looking at new policies and ways that we can address the circumstances later we want to look at how we can develop more bespoke employability programmes or go back to ones that I've worked in the past but which may have been time limited parents that we work with some of the older parents who remember it still talk about how valuable Jobcentre Plus was the supportive approach the person-centred integrated approach working for families was a great model we had here in Scotland because it took the family-centred approach and I think when we're looking at all these policies one of the things I'm really keen for us to do is to look at generally what's going to work but then really drill down into what's the specifics what's going to work for single parent families how do we create that bespoke offer be it child care be it looking at the levels of income that need to be increased through social security that was a lot in there it's very helpful thanks so just to reiterate the point that others have made but I think it's important and we can't state this enough Abel or like some of the organisations around the table are a member of the NGO property coalition so we've got a very clear collective position on the Scottish child payment which is that we think it should be raised to £40 per child per week and that would go some way to addressing the lack of income the cost of living impact and other issues that are impacting on all families low income families but specifically on single parent families also and on top of that I think there's been free-skill meals some considerations around universalism and the roll-out into P6 and P7 we would absolutely advocate for continuing with the commitment to extending free-skill meals to P6 and P7 we know that food insecurity is a key issue for low income families and again through some of the statistics and the anecdotal evidence that we've heard this morning we know that food insecurity is a particular and significant issue for single parent families so continuing with the commitment to universal free-skill meals and then considering what that free-skill meal offer could look like also for high school aged children one of the things I've learned is thinking about how we might raise the income thresholds for families in order to increase and extend the number of families that that reaches could be something that we were thinking about in relation to high school aged children and also that would have the effect we believe of addressing the issue specifically of school meal debt which is something that I've been looking at and doing work around which many of you will know and the issue for low income families who are just above the income thresholds and who don't qualify for free-skill meals and again single parents are overly represented disproportionately represented in that group so that's some of the things in terms of current commitments or current policies that we think could be extended or continued also that the or the other thing probably to say that it's important just to reflect the value and the importance of increasing the cash first approach and increasing the Scottish child payment it's coming back not wanting to labour the point about debt in public debt but coming back to some of the work that we've done over the last year is to highlight that about 80,000 families low income families across Scotland in receipt of universal credit and with children are currently having deductions from their monthly income through universal credit that equates to about 80 pounds per month for those families again single parent families are significantly represented within that group and effectively what that is having the effect of is wiping out or cancelling out the impact of the Scottish child payment entirely for a child in that family and so that I think gives us even more urgency as to why we need to increase the value of the Scottish child payment as well as tackle the issues around debt and the on-going debt crisis which I think it's fair to describe it as that we're seeing in Scotland for low income families right now SACWAT has already talked about housing as well I think it's really important to understand also the effects of the debt and the public debt particularly in relation to rent arrears that many families experience including many single parent families and that is that families who have a rent arrear are unable then to move into a more suitable accommodation and housing local authorities or social landlords won't allow them to move until the arrears are cleared and so those families are trapped in debt particularly when that debt is a rent arrear or housing arrears it then has the effect of creating difficult challenges around their housing circumstances and housing situations so I think that's another really key issue in area to look at and begins to make the connections between income, debt housing and the way in which all those policy areas overlap and the effects one policy and one action within one policy area will have on another I think one of the other things it's really important to highlight and we see this in our work around domestic abuse and our domestic abuse services but single parent families are one and a half to two times more likely to experience or have experienced domestic abuse and the issue of financial challenges that families face is almost universal through the domestic abuse services and the families that we support at Aberlawer who have experience of domestic abuse often trapped and burdened with debt that's been built up as a result of partner and ex-partner and then often more often than not single parents who are mums are left with substantial amounts of debts and council tax, housing areas even drug debts are some of the things that we see in families so understanding the particular context of domestic abuse in relation to single parents and how we then target and think about actions that build on what is in the existing child poverty strategy but also other actions that we might need to take to target support effectively to address the particular financial challenges and financial pressures on single parents I've covered a couple of areas there and I know others will have lots to say so I'll just pause there if that's okay Thank you, Martin and can I just mention to Miles we've got a wee list of people who are wanting to contribute as well so yes not as if Kara Kara indicated Thank you, convener India obviously have a deco what's that what Han Martin have said I think we do need to revisit the child poverty delivery plan because we will the Scottish Government and every party in this Parliament is determined to tackle child poverty, it's really clear that the actions that are being taken at the moment and the pace of those actions simply isn't enough either to meet the interim or the final child poverty targets and Martin and Fiona have shared so powerfully the impact that has on children in Scotland who are grown up in a cycle of poverty but this isn't about statistics as we've heard you know this is about children's life chances and their wellbeing and there really is an urgency about this we've talked so much about poverty being a priority but we need to be using all the levers that we have if we're going to address that effectively and this needs to be embedded across all government departments between central and local government and as Sattlatt has said we need to make sure that the much much stronger focus on impact too and so really bold action is needed I echo the comments that I've made about this needs to start with increasing the Scottish child payment again to £40 a week and also committing to increase that in line with inflation to ease the cost of living pressures and to meet our targets we were disappointed that it wasn't increased in line with inflation this year we welcomed the increase to £25 but our research that we conducted last year would save the children's Scotland and IPPR found that 1,000 children out of poverty and I think the Scottish child payment is a great example of a policy that is starting to make a positive difference now that it's been scaled up and extended to cover young people aged up to 16 and there's much greater awareness in some parts of Scotland about how to claim we know that it's starting to make a difference because when we released our annual parcel figures last week it does look like there's a much lower percentage increase in the number of parcels for children from November 2022 to March 2023 and I think that it's really encouraging news but I think I would emphasise that that isn't an excuse for complacency because firstly it's still the case that we're seeing more children in Scotland having to receive a food parcel than ever before but secondly because if £25 a week is starting to reduce the need for food banks increasing that payment to £40 a week would make an absolutely huge difference both to families who would benefit but also to the ambition that we all hold to meet Scotland's child poverty targets and I think we should also need to explore how to use the success of the Scottish child payment to increase the incomes of other households and priority groups who are struggling the most and feeling the impact of some of the UK less regressive, more regressive policies I guess it is such as young families who are affected by the young parent penalty larger families who are impacted by child cap and people most at risk of using a food bank and another policy that we think works really well is availability of cash grants in a crisis some of the Scottish welfare fund that stands in stark contrast with what we see with welfare assistance schemes at other parts of the UK it gives people dignity, it gives people choice but if we're going to allow that scheme to make more of an impact if we're going to reduce the number of families that need to turn to a food bank then the Scottish welfare fund really does need to be properly resourced to ensure that it meets the growing demand because demand for the crisis support has never been higher and that also needs to include the admin back-ups to be able to afford the staff and so that people who need support can get that support quickly we want to see people get support within the same day and that's really important if we're going to avoid the need for a food bank or people getting into the spiral of debt others have said all the evidence does suggest that cash support in a crisis reduces the need for food banks so we need that investment put in place so people do get that support right across Scotland and that people are properly signposted to come maximisation maximisation and advice services so that those services are properly invested in because ultimately the problem that we face is a lack of income and we hope to see this approach at the centre of the action plan to end the need for food banks this is supposed to be published in autumn so we're waiting impatiently for that to be published hopefully very soon and also finally in summer up I'll just echo the comments that Martin said about universal free school meals we do really think a universal approach is absolutely vital it reduces the stigma that we face especially in our high schools where we know that young people don't want to be identified as having a free school meal and it's absolutely vital that we have a universal system that that system is rolled out as soon as possible for all children in our primary schools, nurseries, secondary schools because that's important to make sure that we don't have children going hungry in our schools and it's absolutely vital as Fiona has said too to tackle the attainment gap that is a huge challenge for us in Scotland so I think that's enough for me at this point now Okay, thanks very much. Can I have another I think it's three or four people so I'm conscious of the time so again if I could ask you to be as concise and succinct as possible Fiona, can I bring you in and then after Fiona I'll bring in Kirsty thanks Thank you, just to add I suppose to what's already been said we produced a report last summer looking at the action plan with Joseph Rowntree Foundation and went through it and appraised what the strengths and weaknesses were and I think our overall conclusion was that the sort of diagnosis of the problem correctly identified lots of the issues that we've been speaking about today but perhaps the the route map to resolving those remains a little bit opaque it's not clear how we're targeting effective policies to each of the priority groups to drive down the disproportionately high rates of poverty for all of those six priority groups so I wonder if we are revisiting the action plan do we need to look at specific targets per priority group and think about how we stratify and kind of target that support I think the question about universalism versus targeted is an important one when resources are stretched but I think we would echo the point that Free School Meals is not the correct policy to roll back on that universalism for all of the points that have been well made, that's pivotal but I think also we need to not look at each policy intervention in a silo Free School Meals is obviously a poverty reduction mechanism but it's also a health mechanism it's a public health, it's the attainment gap so looking at return on those pounds spent Free School Meals is a good one so we strongly support maintaining that commitment and others but I do think that we need a balance of universal services where the evidence is there that that's effective and then more targeted approaches and to your question Miles around things like childcare and employability I think it's not clear how effective the employment schemes are for the different targeted groups and I think we think it's really important there's a lot to talk about how we bring parents closer to the labour market I think we'd flip that and say how do we bring the labour market closer to parents, how do we incentivise businesses or employers to upscale their flexible part-time hours that can work around childcare think about working from home in non-traditional work from home sectors because the parents we are speaking with and others have touched on this but the rubix cube of getting a job and getting childcare that works for those hours or those shifts or the work pattern that you've got and if you are a lone parent you've got to drop off and pick up and you've got to get there and you get to your job and you may work an inconsistent shift pattern we know there's an inequality in the roles and we're mainly talking about women and that's low paid work in carers roles often or hospitality some of those inflexible sorry much more flexible shift patterns and things so we welcome the approach on employability but I think there's two things for us, one the point's been well made that a lot of the families we're talking about right now are in such crisis that employability seems quite a way away when you're thinking I can't turn the light on or I can't turn the fridge on so I think it's building towards that but also we need to think about the barriers that each of the priority groups in the action plan face and the cumulative effect of those and then think about employability programmes that really get in about that because one like employability programme won't work for all of the different priority groups there's multiple barriers to how you can access employment and I just wanted to read out a quote from a parent that we've been working with so they said so I'm stuck I can't do a course, I can't do work and I can't get childcare because the youngest is only seven months I'm just stuck I was told that if I get a job it would really affect my benefits I wanted to speak to someone but I don't know who to speak to about how much it will affect my benefits it's like you're stuck in a position where you're needing to work but you've got no support to get there and I think that probably in a nutshell is our view that at the moment the job market is too far away from the lone parents that we're talking about and I think in terms of childcare we hear consistently and persistently that childcare we really welcome and support the 1140 hours and that childcare offer but there's almost an implementation gap and a lot of the parents that we're speaking to it just doesn't work for them it's not flexible enough or the top up that they're needing to pay to in addition to the free hours is more than the income they're taking home from their part-time job so we need to iron out those inconsistencies and the kinks in the childcare offer because for too many mothers basically it's not working for them OK, thanks Fiona can I bring in Kirstie now? At conscious of time I'll just support everything that everybody has said so far and then come on to one meanish bit which is we particularly welcomed the announcement that the Scottish Government would mitigate the benefit cap in full or as full as possible within the legislative framework through discretionary housing payments capping benefits through the benefit cap means that we've completely lost the relationship between the level of benefits that are paid and the amount that people actually need to live on but we know that as time goes on and more children are born after 2017 fewer families are going to be affected by the benefit cap because they're affected by the two child limit instead so quite simply they won't get enough or won't be entitled to enough benefit to be capped in the first place so whilst we welcome the mitigation at the moment we know that the cost of that will reduce and that moving forward that the two child limit is going to become the bigger issue for families instead so we would recommend that we look ahead to this and start to think about making additional payment through the Scottish child payment to families affected by the two child limit Recent Scottish Government analysis suggests that in terms of reducing child poverty the two child limit would be the most cost effective UK welfare reform to reverse and our own analysis suggests that mitigating the two child limit would lift between 10,000 children in Scotland out of poverty at a cost of around £85 million so the most practical and effective way to address the impact of the two child limit would be through an additional payment at the Scottish child payment to households who have a third or subsequent child born after the 6 April 2017 Thank you very much I've been alerted that there's two members in the room that want to ask you questions on this so I'm going to quickly bring in Paul and then our deputy convener Gordon if you could be as quick as possible please, thank you It was actually to Fiona's point about childcare Obviously when the 1140ers came in we had the two year olds and obviously a lot of that work was to try and get parents back into work Have you seen any analysis of that or do you feel that the Government needs to do more analysis of what happened and how we may be able to expand and improve that? I think the eligible twos is good targeting for low income households but the uptake is lower than the 3 plus offer and I think there's a multitude of reasons for that but there isn't enough analysis into why that is and it comes back to those cumulative barriers, I think there's lots of individual reasons there's community factors there's logistical factors but also there's an awareness raising around that but there's also potentially a little bit of a stigma we hear from some of the parents that we're working with because it isn't a universal service if your two year old qualifies for an eligible two place so I think we welcome that that the eligible twos scheme but I think more needs to be done to target uptake and encourage uptake and I think the new First Minister has made some references to expanding childcare and doing further targeting I think increasing the uptake of the eligible twos would be an obvious first step but I think it has to be built in with choice and flexibility because otherwise it's not an offer if you can't take up the place it's not a genuine offer I've heard a lot of good suggestions this morning the £40 child payment increase the loan payment premium etc all that is mitigation against a situation where the UK Government Kirsty mentioned earlier on about the fact that we saw benefits frozen or 1% uplift using the Bank of England's CPI calculator it suggests that 2013 benefits should have been increased by 30% there is only a limited amount the UK Scottish Government can do given the fact that has the balances budget every year so should there be more of a call on the UK Government to look at minimum wage look at employment law look at benefit levels and look at the two child limit because all of that would make a substantial difference to poverty in Scotland more than asking child poverty sorry child payment increase from 25 quid to 40 quid absolutely I have colleagues in London who will be calling on the Westminster Government to scrap the benefit cap to scrap the two child limit all of those things but in the meantime in order to reach the Scottish child poverty targets we have to use all the powers that we have and all the levers that we have in Scotland in order to make sure that we are taking the actions needed to get there thanks Kirsty I've now got James who wants to come in and I think that's the last person sorry my apologies I've got more ag in the end James so more ag is online thank you thanks Camuna the Scottish Government rightly identifies the number of families particularly at risk of child poverty Cabs in the past year helped families unlock £23.7 million on client financial gains and it's more about supporting making clients single parent families aware of what benefits their entitlements are out there that they're not actually claiming and getting them that support that one named advisor support for them to build up that trust that I mentioned earlier we very much welcome the First Minister's commitment to increase the Scottish child payment and also consideration to remove the 20 metre rule and disability benefit assessments as well which I think would assist and really encourage both these policies to be progressed as a matter of urgency very quickly one of the other things with regards to the Scottish child payment perhaps not linking it to a qualifying benefit looking at income threshold for example because I'm aware certainly in our view in Skengelhalys sometimes there's a lone parent who are working part-time that whilst they might be able to claim universal credit and the universal credit for them might work out to be £5 a week or £10 a week and then it would then passport them into getting other benefits such as the Scottish child payment some families or some lone parent families are choosing not to go down that road because of the difficulties with being on a universal credit claim the difficulties of maybe perhaps managing that claim the digital access working with their work coach having them to look for additional hours up to 35 hours a week and they just don't want that additional pressure for that extra time find a week so it's maybe looking at an income threshold as well when just looking at a you have to be on a qualifying benefit in order to get the Scottish child payment thank you thanks Morag can I now bring in James who will be our final speaker in theme 2 thank you Martin said about people fleeing women primarily fleeing domestic abuse and one of the things we've become aware of is how difficult it is for them sometimes to get access to benefits because a coercive controlling male tends to keep control of finance and it seems to be from our anecdotal experience one of the reasons I know typically people go back seven times before they manage to go free from an abusive relationship and I wonder if it was easier for the benefits to go to the mam and quicker it might make life for mam's fleeing domestic abuse easier other point was what Sartwa said about employability and the importance of not reinventing the wheel there are some models that don't work some models that do be good to look at employability training because that's employment is one of the routes out along with good access to suitable childcare and in Highland the geographic location of the childcare and employment and the children's schools all of that matters to make it practical a car attached on Scottish welfare fund and I would ask it to be something done both for more resource for Scottish welfare fund but also that Scottish welfare fund would be more consistent we deliver the furniture side of Scottish welfare fund in Highland and depending where the priority is for the point of the month the same person may get what they need or not it just depends on demand over a period and also we find that dads don't always separate dads seem to be lower down the priority list with welfare fund but for children to be brought up by two parents albeit they may be separate but wishing to have a positive contribution into the children's upbringing they need to be able to have a good environment in their home for their children and the final point I hear things about up to 30% the third sector could disappear because of the pressures it's under I just think we need to be mindful that third sector is where a lot of people find as their final port or final refuge and just being mindful of what we can do in the face of reduced resources to protect valuable services thanks very much okay when we're now going to move on to theme 3 and I'm going to bring in Katie Clark and theme 3 is about new policies and we've actually had quite a number of suggestions of new policies in themes 1 and 2 I was going to read them out but there's far too many of them so I'm not going to do that and as the deputy convener says many of the leavers lie at Westminster but at the same time this Parliament and the Scottish Government has substantial powers both areas that are very much its own responsibility but also the ability to mitigate as well so in terms of developing some of the themes that we've already raised what new policies do you think that we need to prioritise to tackle specific issues that have been identified in relation to lone parents and are there any that probably wouldn't cause significant amounts of money that might be easier to prioritise in the current situation and what permanent changes do you think we need to make particularly given that the Scottish Parliament does have extensive responsibility for social security and we have to develop our social security system in Scotland in a different way so how would you develop maybe on some of the themes that have already been raised and maybe if I go to Kirsty first if she's comfortable with that I think we need to use all of the leavers within our power to increase lone parents incomes and reduce costs and we've heard about secure employment opportunities with better pay we know that for lone parents this is an issue in particular it's a gendered issue we need the availability of childcare that works we've talked a lot about childcare today and we've welcomed recent funding announcements in relation to childcare but we really do need it to be a stepping stone to a more strategic approach for the development of childcare as a whole and we need to reduce costs for parents as well be that the costs in school days for example free school meals transport costs in terms of how we build the social security system it's so important that it's accessible to the families who need to use it we've heard already about families who are not accessing the benefits that they're entitled to because they simply didn't know about them or the complexity of the benefits system because it's delivered by UK and Scottish Governments as well it means that people have to apply services for different parts of benefits and how do people know which ones to apply for and which ones lead to each one so I think it's really important that as far as possible we automate the benefits system not in terms of decision letters and computers and things like that but in terms of people not necessarily having to make fresh applications all the time that if they're entitled to one benefit that leads to them being entitled to another one that there's a much information on the security of Scotland about the benefits that people can be entitled to and things like that That could be developed in many ways that would take quite some time but it's very interesting I think that Martin was wanting to come in We have got an indication of people who want to come in if you just forgive me for interrupting you there and thank Kirsty for her contribution however before I do that I believe Jeremy Balfour would like to come in Thanks Jeremy I'm sorry to interrupt and there are lots of questions I would like to ask but I just want to go back to one of the points James has made and I don't know if anything panic can help me with this one of the things that we brought in with the Security Act was the entitlement for split payments so the money didn't go to one individual but it went to maybe the female and obviously with Covid that should have got lost I just wonder does anyone within the round table have an update of where we are on that and is there something that we should maybe pursue with the Scottish Government but I don't know if anyone has an update on it because I don't so I'm just interested to know where we are If no one can come in on it can I maybe suggest Jeremy that we get in touch with Spice to see if information is available from there and we can produce it I just wonder if anyone was engaged in that with the Scottish Government okay thank you okay thank you so you spoke about loan parents rates and legacy benefits and all policy can the new policy not assist loan parents in terms of the reintroduction of those rates just pop that out as well okay thank you giving us fit for thought anyway thanks Mary now can I bring in Fiona and following Fiona I believe Martin wants to come in it was just quite briefly on new policies I think probably I would sort of gently push back on the premise that I don't think we need new policies there's so much expertise across the country there's so many projects there's so many local services there's networks of providers local authorities people around the room but far more extensive than that who have expertise of what works and how to reach families and how to pull all the threads together and really help to deliver improvements for families and help them unlock benefits has been said so I think probably my very general point would be to not throw the baby out with the bathwater maintain funding for projects where there's evidence that they work but go back out into communities which I think the pathfinders are sort of doing in the child poverty delivery plan but I'm not sure we need more pathfinders the pathfinders are out there in communities and they're already happening so it's maybe collecting that best practice and working with communities and importantly working with parents I think we've tried very hard to bring the voices of parents into the room but speaking to parents and finding out what works because it's only then that you'll unlock the intricacies of people's lives which mean that the policy intention isn't realised on the ground so I think it is going out and speaking to parents, lone parents in this case and understanding what works for them but I think my other quite general point is to say that we've got a report coming out next month which I'll share with the committee with IPPR and JRF looking at the societal and economic costs of poverty in Scotland and I think that it would be intuitive to everyone in the room but I think we need to look at social security spend and other spend to reduce poverty as not a black hole throwing money into the black hole to help individuals although of course there is individual benefit but the money going into the Scottish child payment is being spent in communities it's going back into our communities it's being spent in local economies the childcare money being spent is an enabler to employment I think these things aren't siloed so when making decisions about policies to be either extended or rolled out or maintained funding for impact because a lot of these things address not just lifting numbers of people out of poverty but there's impacts on the attainment gap on wellbeing, on mental health services, on public health on the health budgets there's multiple cumulative impacts of positive spend around poverty and I think we need to maintain that when making policy choices Thanks Fiona can I now bring in Martin we still have another four people wanting to come in so can you speak as quick as possible it's a challenge as people who know me well will tell you it's a challenge but I'll do my absolute best apologies if I speak particularly quickly I'm just going to build first of all on the point that Fiona made which is crucial and I think often gets lost in terms of the narrative around social security an investment in social security that provides more money in the pockets of our children and families as an investment in our children and families and I think we need to remember that and as Fiona says that's not money that goes into a black hole it contributes to our economy it contributes to our communities and it makes sure that our children are able to get the things that they need thinking about policies new policies are otherwise I think it's important to think about some of the things we have committed to but haven't yet realised we haven't yet touched on UNCRC but I think it's an incredibly important point that we have a universal commitment in this Parliament to the incorporation of UNCRC and that in itself will provide the framework and accountability that will make sure that we follow through as a country on many of our choices and commitments and that is crucial in terms of the work that we are doing and the commitments that we have made to lift children and families out of poverty and to realise children's right to food realise children's right to play in good quality housing all those things will be much much better achieved once we follow through with that commitment to UNCRC incorporation so we would urge for that to happen quickly and I know others have made that point as well coming back to some of the debt discussion that we've had some of the things that Aberlour have been calling for in relation to more action that we think the Scottish Government can take in response to debt and we've seen how we've heard this morning just how pervasive that is in terms of single parent families particularly so we've called for a pause in public debt recovery in Scotland, we've actually called for a pause in public debt recovery across the UK which there's a precedent for during the pandemic but we've also called for the Scottish Government and local authorities to work together to do what they can to pause public debt recovery for initially at least six months to give some families breathing space and to provide them with some relief around the debt burden that is impacting on them right now as I've already touched on we've been calling on cancelling school meal debt for all children across Scotland we know local authorities have taken steps to do that unilaterally which has really been positive but that then in and of itself means there's now a discrimination amongst different local authorities in Scotland and so some children have benefited from that school meal debt cancellation we want to see that extended and we think the Scottish Government should be able and should do that for all children in Scotland alongside that and as a preventative measure it should as well which we think will then prevent school meal debt from accruing in the future for many of those same families and also to provide flexibility and funding to local authorities to write off debt where necessary, where relevant and where it's in the best interests of children and families and impacting on children's wellbeing we want the commitment around keeping the promise to be followed through particularly in relation to delivering whole family support for families so the commitment to the funding that's been committed to by the Scottish Government is realised and we know that that is crucial in terms of responding to the immediate needs and the immediate impact of poverty on families including many single parent families I think Kara and others have already talked in Scottish welfare fund so I won't go into detail about that but the final point I would make around new policies or new actions that we think should be taken is to think about the particular groups and particularly vulnerable groups including families with no recourse to public funds and families with no recourse to public funds are again disproportionately represented in terms of the work that Bob Lour does responding to those needs and providing support through urgent assistance fund it's a group that will not shift the dial on child poverty statistics but it's a group that are highly vulnerable at most the risk in terms of falling into poverty and destitution and we think there's a lot more that can be done by the Scottish Government working in partnership with local authorities and using existing local powers to target support and help to prevent those families particularly and destitution so I would make the call for more action around those families no recourse to public funds okay thank you very much Martin for your contribution can I now bring in Satwa followed by Kara thank you I will also try to be brief I promise I think I'd also answered some of the things about actually we need to be looking at what's worked in the past that we're no longer doing as opposed to thinking about what new things we need to do I think there's a whole series of things we need to do in terms of the approach though to identifying what it is that's worked why it's worked and how we can bring it back scale it up, replicate it and in order to do that I absolutely want to echo Martin's point about we need to be using what we have and we have an approach here to develop a holistic whole family support and that's going to be critical in how we're looking at supporting single parent families because it will then integrate services from the perspective of what makes sense to the family as opposed to the silos that we have that we currently deliver services through which adds to the complexity of the landscape for families I think we need to be looking at analysis to make sure things are appropriate so that's where I spoke about the intersectional approach being critical others have spoken about the complexity of the system for people to access the support that they're entitled to that's available for them so information advice services at places where the families are going to go I think it's absolutely critical for us to look at stigma and discrimination need to be addressed these are some of the underlying things that will make policies fail make initiatives fail unless we do something about it lessons from Covid on the importance of partnership and I think that none of us can do this alone and at a time of restricted resources we need to look to see how we work together more collaboratively the role of the third sector and how we can remove some of those barriers to delivery I think if we do some proofing of policies so for example in this case if we were to look at single parent proofing so we're looking at what it is we're planning to do it's informed by the views of the parents who are affected it makes sense to the single parents and their families and it fits the complexity of their everyday lives we're more likely to have successful initiatives rather than thinking about it from the perspective of what makes it easier for me to do it sitting where I am within my institution you asked about permanent things things that can really make a difference I mean prevention obviously would be the ideal and that's where we need to get to but actually the crisis is here and now and the crisis measures need addressed but that doesn't mean we wait for that before we start looking at some of the longer term preventative measures they need to be happening at the same time you know we need to increase the baseline of income and we've spoken about the Scottish child payment as a mechanism there's also a minimum income guarantee working group which has MSPs on it as well as some of us from the third sector and other areas there was talk about universal basic services when we were coming out of Covid and there's the need actually for all this to be built on strong dependable mainstream services these additional measures to tackle specific experiences of particular priority family groups needs that foundation of strong mainstream services to build on this shouldn't be about sticking plasters to fill gaps because there's cuts happening in mainstream services essential services but we need to be looking to see how we can do both and there's income maximisation and the current system we've heard about how much goes unclaimed how can we simplify that automated increase eligibility and finally we need to be looking at how we align employability with childcare family friendly working flexible working also look at rates of pay and hours of pay within that because that's what's going to make the difference and stop it being a step from out of work poverty into into work poverty okay thank you can I now bring in Kara thank you and I would agree with others that I don't think this is necessarily about new policies I think we know what changes we need to see there's been a lot of policy papers published a lot of consultations taken place in many debates at Hollywood but what we need is the policies solutions implemented we need them scaled up to meet the challenges that Scotland faces and we need the best practice that is happening in communities across Scotland better shared I think we know that before the UK Government policies that I have had had a detrimental impact but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't act because children families living in poverty now don't really care what level of government it is it's responsible, they need to see action and they need to see the support in place and that's why at the Trusill Trust we really welcome the Scottish Government's commitment to develop an action plan to end the need for food banks we really hope that that's going to be published soon we think that Scotland should be leading the way that's why we're calling for more investment and expansion of the policies that we know are making a real difference to families such as the Scottish child payment such as the Scottish welfare fund policies that we know work so let's invest in them more let's realise their potential to end poverty and destitution in Scotland that's why we support free school meals so that no children in Scotland faces this stigma that's why we need to see action to reduce the cost of the school day that's why we need to see action to reduce the cost of living invest in flexible and free childcare do more to make work pay and to make sure that everybody's got enough hours and we would echo the calls that Martin has made in Aberlour have made around pausing public debt and we also need to look at disability obviously, Scotland has control now of disability benefits, we need to be using that to make a difference by scrapping things like the 20 metre rule by looking at the level of disabilities to make sure that they're adequate and make sure that people have the support in the workplace because clearly there are a lot of barriers in place at the moment so there are loads that we can do and loads of ideas that are being mentioned here but it's just about being bold and using the urgency but we also need policy change at UK level and the Trusill Trust together with the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and with the support of 90 charities across the UK have launched a new campaign to reform universal credit so that it always provides the support people need to cover the cost of life's essentials such as food, utilities vital household goods and we know that right now 9 out of 10 low income households receiving universal credit are going without one or more essential so we want to see at UK level we want to see the UK government reform universal credit so at the very least it covers the cost of essentials and the deductions for example to the DWP can never pull support below that level and that would mean increasing the rate from its current £85 a week to at least £120 a week I think it's an absolute bizarre situation that we have a social security system that doesn't really reflect the costs that people face and we need to reform that so that benefit levels reflect how much things actually cost obviously this is a mainly reserved matter but we hope that the Scottish Government we hope that Scottish political parties we hope that committee members here will back these calls for a social security system that guarantees our essentials but I mean that is an absolute minimum our ambitions in Scotland also need to be much higher if we're going to secure the fairers of more progressive future that we want to see here Tala I'm not Tala I'm sorry Sala has already talked about income guarantee for everyone in Scotland and we know this isn't obviously a low cost measure but this is a measure that really would highlight the sort of different Scotland that we want to see I think a minimum income guarantee would be the best way of ensuring that families in Scotland are protected from future crises it would make sure that everybody has enough income from either work or social security to afford not just the essentials but to afford a decent quality of life so obviously it comes at a cost that cost is so much less than so many children, so many families in Scotland grown up in poverty Okay, Kyra, thank you very much I'm now going to bring in Laura, who's online and following that James Dunbar Thank you, I just want to make a small additional point around employability I think that over the next, well this financial year we're going to see an investment around parental employment into all the local areas in Scotland and I think it's an opportunity we need to be really careful that we don't sconder and from our experience at Five Gingerbread I think there's three key things that we could really think about how we maximise that I think we need to demand investment in loan parents specialist projects across Scotland we know that works, it's evidence so we must demand that that's part of the approach nationwide I think there's links that are not used to community wealth building and progressive recruitment so how can we fast-track loan parents into good, well-paid, healthy jobs in our community anchor organisations and the third point I would make around parental employment is we often just measure the success of these programmes with the number of people engaged and the number of job outcomes that were achieved and we must be more sophisticated and cleverer with how we do that we need to look at how we measure the success around tackling child poverty and just looking at those high-level data points so that's my contribution thanks very much following James our final speaker is going to be Morag great, thank you convener I'll be really brief it's almost a paradox I want to share I hear a lot of really really good policy and I'm encouraged by the policy I'm hearing coming from the Scottish Parliament where I see the challenge one of the challenges is consistent implementation of good policy and the paradox is I think we need to be consistent in how it's implemented or the outcomes we get from the implementation but I'd love to see service being co-designed and shaped around what's different in each local authority area and the right outcomes because doing the same things in every area won't give you the same outcome necessarily and all of that I would like to see shaped around the individual that would be my thanks very much James and finally Morag thank you I think every passing day that without these kind of interventions that we've all discussed today is pushing more and more people to the brink and significant reforms are needed more so than ever increasing the social security payments looking at introducing a social tariff for the energy market tabs deliver life changing results one in six people who saw advice with us last year saw a financial gain the average financial gain being £4,200 better off that could be vital money in that household for housing employment utilities and them accessing their rights at the same time with regards to these subject areas Cass recently published a good practice guidance for creditors to encourage creditors to foster more constructive practices aimed at helping people manage their finances as well as their mental wellbeing rather than punishing them for not being able to keep up-to-date with payments noted in February this year the mental health charity CME saw that 59% of people in Scotland see the cost of living crisis was impacting their mental health this new cast guidance was setting out 10 key principles and invites creditors to consider what they are doing and what they could improve in each area and really what we would like to see a broader change is a more sympathetic person-centred approach helping people in their years of debt so that the focus is what people can afford rather than what they owe a similar approach to those who have mental health issues and obviously these demographics include one parent families Thank you Thank you very much Modeg, so that brings us to the end of theme 3 Can I say a huge thank you for all your evidence today and if there are any points that you have not had a chance to read with us today you are absolutely welcome to follow that up in writing and I know that for me personally it has brought a lot more questions and I am sure that the rest of the members are here as well so that basically concludes our public business for today we will now move into private and can members who are joining us remotely please use the Microsoft Teams link in their calendars to join the meeting and a very huge thank you once again to everyone that has been here today and for those of us that are online as well Thank you very much