 I don't have a hammer here. I'll call this meeting to order. This is our second public input session. And the purpose of this is to get public input meeting to allow for the general public to express their opinions, ideas, and concerns regarding the police station site. You're allowed to speak at any time. We are televised this evening. And we ask that when you go up to the mic to present, you record your name and address on the sheet that's there, as well as speak it to us so that we can all get who you are and write it down on our notepads. If you have specific questions that we cannot answer, those questions will be given to your older persons and those answers should be given to you at some point or another. They may also be turned over to like the committee of the whole and then we'd bring them in and discuss them at that particular time, too. So with that, I'd like to start by reading something that we were asked to read. Susan Hart, the mayor's administrative assistant, received this and was asked to have it read into the minutes or into the meeting. This communication or this information was presented to us by Mary Zephanides. And she asks, this regards the new police station. She has in here a question, has come up, that who will do the cleaning, maintenance, snow shoveling, and grass cutting for the new police station? As it is right now, a young man named Travis does City Hall and does a top-rate job, I believe. He also has two part-time helpers who work from 4 p.m. on. A police station and grounds of the projected size will require additional costs beyond that, what has been computed to cost for this station. Or is it another hidden cost that we don't know about? The North 23rd site is the best option. The building of the new police station at a rate of $150.95 per square foot times a 50,000-square-foot building equals $7.5 million, not $17 plus million. Please check with Carter Paulus. He has a construction cost analysis sheet. So this was asked to be read in, and that's what I just did. So what will happen to this is we will refer it to the Committee of the Whole coming into council, and then these questions will be answered at a future meeting. But that's the start of this. Now, I invite anybody who wants to speak at the public input session. I'm going to keep it open until 8 o'clock, then we'll take about a 10-minute break, and then we'll continue until 9 o'clock if people want to continue speaking. So anybody who wishes to speak, please step forward. Use the microphone because we are televised. Remember to state your name and address, and then record it on the sheet that's provided there. The mic is on. OK. I'm Dulcy Johnson. I live at 1306 North 3rd Street. And I have not read the Zimmerman report, but as I understand it, the top two sites are the 23rd Street site and City Hall. And I would like to speak in support of City Hall. I think it's centrally located. And contrary to what Mr. Payne would have us believe, I do not think the 23rd Street site is a win-win situation for the city. I think it's a poor location. We would lose a valuable parking lot. Plus we would have to pay $300,000 for land we already own and build a new salt shed for the county. The new idea that has surfaced of sharing an evidence storage site is a plus. And I'd strongly support that. But along with that, evidently, there's going to be an indoor pistol range. And as I listened to the council meeting on Monday night, I believe it was Alderman Stephan who said that LTC is planning to build a pistol range. If so, that cost would be shared with Manitowoc County. So the question is, why would Sheboygan build a separate facility if they could share that at LTC with Manitowoc County? I did have a phone conversation this morning with someone at LTC who confirmed that a pistol shooting range is in their five-year plan for that department. But it seemed that they were waiting for the city and county to decide what they were going to do. And I understand that they currently use the shooting park, the outdoor shooting park. There's no fee to them for that. It's under some kind of mutual agreement. I don't know what that's about. But as for the Vandervaart site, which I gather is favored by the police department and some of the Alderman, I think that site has greater potential development and that it would be a mistake to take that property off the tax rolls. Interestingly, Officer Winter express that this site would allow for a one-story facility. But I think that the one-floor demand or requirement of the police department is a point in as much as in supporting Sheridan Park, the police department was willing to accept more than one floor for their station. As for shared services, I have heard and read several comments that the 23rd Street site is the best for shared services. My question is why. What services could be shared if the police station was at the 23rd Street site that could not be shared at City Hall? And of the people that I have heard talk about this, not a one has mentioned a single service that could be shared at 23rd Street that could not be shared at City Hall. And given the fact that the county has no plans to move to 23rd Street but would more likely move further west, I understand. To me, it sounds like another Brooklyn Bridge. I just find it interesting that the county is so determined that the city should build their police station at 23rd Street. And one of the biggest shared services, which has not been discussed for a long time, is sharing dispatch services. I would like to suggest that in building the police station on the City Hall property, that the mechanics garage facility be combined with the public works facility. I understand that the city has five different garage services. I can name three of them. I don't know where the other two are. But of course, we have the bus service, and we have public works, and we have the police service. I don't know what the other two are. But I don't know why the police vehicles could not be maintained at the public works department. And this would also facilitate the parking or the no parking issue, because police officers could then park their vehicles on New Jersey Avenue. And the issue of parking at City Hall would not be as big a burden. But further on that point, I really do not believe that the city has any obligation to provide parking for its employees. All of the buses stop right across the street here. And of course, this would be a problem for those employees who live outside of the city limits. Indeed, I understand two of our police officers live in Milwaukee. But that's what I've been told. And I find that quite ridiculous. And further on the parking issue, I understand that employees of private businesses rent parking spaces on 7th and 9th Street at the meters. They pay a monthly fee or whatever. So that's another option as far as employees' parking. In any event, since parking is such a big issue, why give the county a valuable parking lot, which I understand would cost a million dollars to replace? And so then when we add that in, we're not talking about $300,000 for land acquisition. The figure is much greater. And if the county is so stretched for parking, why aren't they leasing spaces from the city now at 7th and Penn if there are spaces available there? And if the county really needs that lot, why don't they lease it? Has that ever been discussed? I urge that you not give that parking lot away, because I think in the near future, the city will be tearing down more houses to build yet another parking lot. And I know the county has said, well, if we don't get that parking lot, then we're going to be forced to build a $3 to $4 million parking ramp. And to that, I say that's a scare tactic, not in my lifetime. It seems that with the county finally assuming some fiscal responsibility, I can't imagine that they would ever build a $3 to $4 million parking ramp. After leaving the council in 1988, I worked in Washington DC for eight years and more recently in Chicago for eight years. And so I see the parking issue differently. I didn't even have a car in the eight years I worked in Washington DC. My car was parked in my garage here in Sheboygan. I walked to the bus or five blocks to the train. I walked from the train to my office, which was two blocks from the White House. And that becomes a way of life. And I think people here have gotten very lazy. They just have to park immediately outside the door where they're going. And I just don't understand that parking always has to be such a problem. One of the other points that has been raised about in favor of 23rd Street is that it would allow room for expansion. But let's look at that issue. I moved here in 1965. So I've been here 40 years. In 1960, Sheboygan's population was 45,747 people. In 2000, it was 50,792. But in 2003, per an article in the July 11th Sheboygan Press, our population was 49,446, a loss of 1,300 people. So the need for expansion kind of escapes me. I just don't see it. And so I try to understand why the county is so determined that the city should build on the 23rd Street site. And it's obvious to me that it would be a win-win situation for them, because they would get $300,000, a new salt shed, a valuable parking lot. And as I listened to Mr. Payne's recent presentation to the council, he also talked about the appeal of sharing services if the city would build at the 23rd Street site. But he did not list one single service that could be shared with the county if the city builds the police station on the 23rd Street site. And somebody needs to ask the question, what are those shared services that can be shared at the 23rd Street site that could not be shared at City Hall? That is a question that I would like to have answered by someone sometime. As to the matter of the cost, it seems that the cost of the police station has risen considerably, just very recently. And I really don't know why. When Mr. Paula spoke to the council on Monday night, he stated that a police station could be built for $6 million and the very best for $7.7 million. So I must ask, why is the projected cost of a police station for Sheboygan upwards of $19 million? Especially given the fact that there is now consideration to sharing a separate pistol shooting range and an evidence storage building with the county at a separate site. An architect can build whatever you direct them to build, true. So the question is, what is the police department asking for that has caused the projected cost to skyrocket? It sounds like an above and beyond Taj Mahal, as some people have characterized it. And as elected representatives, you need to be responsible to your constituents and eliminate the gravy. And I seriously hope that you will consider City Hall. Thank you. Just to answer one of your questions, Dulcy, regarding LTC, I know contact has been made with them since we passed the document on Monday night regarding the firing range. And they're planning on, as soon as it goes into a committee and is acted upon, there'll probably be a three-way communication for that firing range. So that portion will be taken care of. The city would use the firing range at LTC, then? Would not build a separate one? It would be a combination. The county, the city, and LTC would build a combination. I see. By the range. OK. Well, that sounds like a good idea. Thank you. That I can tell you about. The rest, I've got what you said written down. Alderman Davis. Or McGrath. You don't have to stand up. Does that mean managed walk would not be in the range out of the LTC? I don't know. I know they just contacted LTC. There's contact made with LTC. And they said in their reply back that, yes, they'd be interested in working with us. Anyone else who wishes to speak? The microphone is open. Again, we are televised. Please sign your name on the sheet, as well as give it to us so that we can record. My name is Jeffrey Bubb. I live at 2906A South 10th Street. And I just stumbled across an idea recently that some of you may have or may have not thought of. I've always been a proponent for having this to please the police station essentially located at night. And I've always felt that the 23rd Street site was a little bit out of reach for the police to operate properly for the city. And so everybody was talking about the fact that we needed a lot of land for the possible expansion of the police station in the future. And when Vandervaart, the Vandervaart site came up on the list of five places to consider, I thought that was an awfully nice place to go. It was just a few blocks away from the supposedly ideal location for the Sheridan Park spot. So it's, even according to the zoom report, scores very high in marks according to its location. Now, the thing that everybody seems to be worried about is that, well, we'll lose the property taxes if we lose Vandervaart. Well, it just seemed kind of clear to me that if we were so bent on having a deal made with the county that the county wanted to sell this land so much, well, why don't we just have Vandervaart buy the land from the county on the 23rd Street site? They could move there. And they would have a perfect spot for their business with an access to a major state highway on Highway 23, which is exactly what they want. We would move our station to the Vandervaart site, which is exactly what we want, because it's plenty of land. It's more land than we actually need. And the excess land in the future could be used to, I don't know, return some of the costs that would cost us up front to purchase the land. So that land at Vandervaart's use, its use is much more than just for the police station. It could be used for future things as well to benefit the city. So it just seemed that the police win if they move the Vandervaart. Vandervaart wins if they move to the county land. And it seems like, really, everybody's happy. So I just wanted to throw that idea out there for you to consider. And that's basically all I have to say. Thank you. Thank you. Good evening. My name is Pete Heimbold. I live at 305 New York Avenue. I'm a recent resident. My wife and I moved here a year ago. Although she grew up here in the city, I was lucky enough to steal one of your beautiful girls away. I have been following this situation. And I think there was a concern about space, but yet you're interested in using this garage over here, which is not very large, unless you build six or eight or 10 stories or whatever to pick up the additional space. So I just came up with a little idea. And it would take a little work. Maybe it's maybe work. Maybe it wouldn't work. One thing, the first thing you would have to do is contact the GSA and see if they would sell the post office. You buy the post office, see if they are the owner, or they are the lessors, let's use, excuse me, of the Social Security Building. OK. You would close Center Street between 9th and 10th. You'd close the south one-half of New York Avenue. The reason the one-half is because there are two driveways on New York Avenue for the people to have access. Buy all the property on New York and the south side and 8th on the west side between Center and New York. So all the property down here would be purchased, except for the high-rise. OK. You'd notify the older dealer about future expansion. So if he has plans what he's going to do, you put them on notice that the city may be acquiring his property. You rebuild the post office on the newly acquired property. You put the Social Security Office in that building. All they need is handicap access, which are required in an elevator. OK. If you do that, then you can then lease that land to a private developer or the city could build the post office themselves. If the city builds a post office and leases it to the federal government, there's income, but there's no tax. If they go through a developer, they can lease it at a reasonable price, plus they get property tax. OK. This way you keep the post office downtown and you keep the other government buildings close by. That's it. Thank you. Thank you. Leroy-Hartensman, 2603 Elizabeth Street. Your last name again, please? Hartensman. Could you spell that, please? O-T-T-E-N-S-M-A-N-N. Something that doesn't seem to be mentioned here too much is the amount of space that is available for the police department next. You know, they're talking acres here, acres there, but nobody says how many acres of land the police station would have next to City Hall. Can somebody clue me in as far as I'm concerned? Is there space enough for the station? I don't know. Does somebody have the report that Paulette and Tom put together? There was the acreage is, I'm sorry, or 1.6 maybe? 1.6, OK. Now, is this an adequate thing? Is that using the alley? Yes. It is using the alley. We also have a parking lot over there. It could be, you know, if expansion would be needed over in that direction. I would like to see the police department established right here at City Hall. I think it's the most convenient place. And whoever came up with the idea certainly should be congratulated, because it's an ideal place. It's right here downtown. It's near the courthouses. When you police have to go over there, it's not that far. I don't know if parking is going to be a problem or not, but like the lady says, you can have your maintenance done down at the city garage down there and divide it up that way. The shooting, the pistol range, you mentioned something about LTC getting in on this now? I just read in the paper about the county wanting to go down in that building down there. I didn't hear anything about LTC. They have been contacted and asked to, because they were planning on building a shooting range themselves. LTC was at their place? At their facility, yes. So that eliminates that type of thing that you were. If they all get together yet. So basically, I don't see why a city hall location can't be used. You have facilities right down here, your cable, what do you call it? Yeah, fiber optic cables and all of that. You don't have to extend that out there. A lot of extra cost. And it probably would be most cost efficient. However, one other thing I think should be mentioned here as far as the station itself is concerned in architecture is that make sure that this building is built to serve the needs of the police department and not necessarily all of their wants. I think architects have the tendency to throw extra things in. And somebody should go over those plans with the architects, with the police department, say what we really need. And let's get that cost down. Thank you. Thank you. Did you sign in on that? What's that? Did you sign in on that? No, I'm going to. Good evening. My name is Tom Riffle. I live at 1617 North 24th Street. I'm a resident on that street. And I was listening to the proposal on the 23rd Street site for the police department. And I do have a couple of questions. And actually, it has been brought up already this evening. But it is on my mind too. And that is what would really be the value of giving up the land that the city already owns to the county in that we are trying to build up a tourist destination here and also improve the city itself and what it would cost to the city in the future to have to try to replace that land if we're just giving it away now for the 23rd Street site police station. Also, because I live in that area, I was concerned if anybody had ever done a traffic study in the future, if not right at this point, I know living in that area pulling out on Superior Avenue sometimes is quite a challenge. And of course, once you put a police department over there and especially if in the future a municipal courtroom goes in there, you can just imagine the amount of traffic flow that would be added to that area. And pretty soon what happens is you've got no choice but to put stop and go lights at practically every street that T bones into Superior Avenue. And I feel, because I'm a homeowner in that area, when my wife and I bought that land and home in 2000, even though it was a nice home only 13 years old, we did spend a considerable amount of additional money fixing it up. And I just feel that down the road, if you end up having to put stop and go lights in there, that is gonna detract from that area. And it might even cost me what I've already stuck into that home. So that I think is probably my biggest concern. Also, I have to admit that I did really think Sheridan Park was the best place for it. But if that is off the table now, I would think the next possible spot would have to be Vandervaar's land because my feeling is that the city would gain an awful lot of land that they could sell to other businesses and recoup some of their expenditures. And I guess I really don't understand also the shared costs or the shared services between the county and the city. I don't know that a firing range would really be proper at either location. I think that's something that should really probably be put out of town anyway. So I guess that's pretty much it. And then hopefully somebody will look into the traffic situation over there because it is quite a problem already. And it certainly would be a huge problem if that would be put in over there, I think. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, my name is Ben Cooner. I live at 1427 North 10th Street. A lot of things have been brought up about 23rd Street being a great site, quote unquote. The city and county could share a lot of services there. They're going, it doesn't matter where the city builds or even not at all. There's no reason that we can't share services down the road, even if it's not in the same building. They bring up about the shooting range. Yeah, we could make a good shooting range in the city of Sheboygan, but you know, since LTC wants to build one, you know, it's not a bad idea to get together with LTC Manitowoc, county of Manitowoc and make a fantastic shooting range for both counties. Or actually, you almost could get Calumet because they're not that far away from LTC either. The K9 unit training, I'm sorry, there's at the most you're gonna have two dogs for the whole county of Sheboygan. A training facility for two dogs does not make sense. Again, we should look at talking to LTC or something in that manner and to get together with another county like Manitowoc and say let's get our dogs together and put up a fantastic facility that four or six or eight dogs would be using instead of just two. And you go through like the evidence room. I'm sorry, if they looked at the laws, technically and legally, that cannot be in the same room. It can be in the same building, but not the same room. So you're talking two separate rooms, which means you're not, what are you saving other than the rough and maybe a little bit of shared heat. You're also talking to 23rd Street site. I'm sorry, there is no easy north and south exit from that building. If you go south from 23rd Street, somehow you're gonna have to go down to 14th Street or to Taylor Drive and cut back. So you're talking an extra nine blocks at least on an emergency call to a Southside residence. Even north, you're somewhat going back to 14th Street for an emergency call. So you're talking, what, nine blocks for an emergency call. You're going, well, that's only a couple of minutes. I'm sorry, when you're in a life and death situation a couple of minutes can mean death. And I hate to see us get to a point where all of a sudden somebody dies and we're going, what did we do wrong? That's not the time to look at that. You're also talking expansion. It's four acres of land there now, and the city is, or the county is asking basically what's gonna end up with $1.3 million at least for that piece of land, not counting the cleanup because yeah, we're giving a parking lot, which in a sense to me doesn't make sense to the county of that parking lot is quote unquote gonna alleviate some of their parking problems when I'm sorry, they can use the parking lot at the armory and they can't get their employees to walk the two blocks from the armory. How are they gonna get their employees to walk two blocks from Seventh and Penn? And you're talking that if there's 48 stalls being rented now for business in the downtown area, we are gonna have to replace that at a million dollar cost. You know, granted the county, well, we're not gonna kick them out at least around for two years. So in other words, we spend a million plus in two years to tear down the houses because after all the properties are gonna go up, not down. And my strictest point on this is we definitely need a police station where you have an easy access to a North, South, East, West from the building. Because in case of an emergency, you have to have that. And basically you're talking two major streets that have North, South, Access is either A Street or 14th Street. Taylor Drive is too far West. A Street right now, to be honest, is a little too far East. So my two sites I would prefer and actually I still kind of prefer Sheridan Park. If we would have thought outside of the box and figured, yeah, we're losing a park, but yet we can get funds to build a better park. You know, that would have been an ideal solution, but evidently we don't think out of the box here. So my preferred site would be the Vanderfart site. Yeah, it's 19 acres. We can, in some ways it's a high cost, but from my understanding, from latest information going out, Vanderfart would be willing to swap land in the industrial park that the city already owns for that land. Plus it wouldn't be that hard for the city to sell half of that property and still have 10 acres basically to expand a police station. That's two and a half times more than the 23rd Street site. So I just don't understand why they're so convinced that we have to go to 23rd Street. And to be honest, you know, when you think about why the county is so adamant to get rid of that land, I wonder if they're not using the city of Sheboyin to help balance their budget for years down the road, because they probably can use that 3 million. Yet the county does not need that piece of land. They should basically sell it and put it back on the property roll. That's all I got to say. Thanks. Thank you. Again, I'd invite anyone to the mic who wishes to speak and remind people that we are televised and to please fill out the pad with your name and address and then state your name and address for the record also. My name is Milton Storm. I live at 1736 Marvin Court. And I want to thank the honorable mayor and also to the council members who are present. What I'm probably gonna say is not gonna be very pleasant, but then I'm not that type of guy. I met the honorable mayor over at the old McDonald's. I introduced myself to him and I told him I'm Milton Storm and I write letters to the editor. And he was a very nice gentleman. We have gotten to be France, although we are on the opposite side of the political spectrum. So I have to thank him because I went home and on my caller ID at 10.07 in the morning, I got a call from the Shabuigan press. And it was Michael Knuth, the editor. He says, I see you've met my friend, Warren Perez. Yes, I did. So that tells me a lot. I'm sorry. Then I went over to Sheridan Park. I still think that Leonard Cooner has got a good idea. The police station should have been at Sheridan Park because the Sheridan Park is useless. The neighborhood parks are going out of style. And it's a very little use. I would suggest that we put the park on the 23rd Street and we make it a county park. And then every, both the city and the county, how is that's gonna be funded? I don't know. Would save a lot of money, wouldn't we? Well, the other thing is I heard on radio today that Racine, I don't know what their population is. I think it's about, is that 90,000 already? I always thought it was about 77,000. Now they are looking to at least add some more police officers, at least about 200. So that means that for a city the size of Shabuigan, we should have at least about 140. I'm then a member of Neighbors Against Drugs and I also attended a court case today. And you ought to see what our police department and sheriff's department have to go through. It is sad. Our judicial system is a farce. And how can we argue when we put the cart in front of the horse? When you have articles like this in the Shabuigan press that the council wrestles with a police site and we see Alderman Dan Berg and the Honorable Mayor Juan Perez. And he likes the 23rd site and Berg likes the Mandibard site. I think the Mandibard site is a very poor area because I live in that area. And I think we can use that. City lacks a lot of cheap motels. We could get in more motels or even businesses for that. And I think a motel would be the best idea because there's access to the easy access. And if you're going to put a police station there and you have very heavily trafficked in that area, you're going to have to do something because you're going to have more problems than you are. And the same thing over at Sheridan Park. And what I recommended over at Sheridan Park that you vacate Virginia have no access. That the only place the patient actually would be from New Jersey have them because you got stop and go lights. And I think that area is plenty big enough to put a police station because I've talked to a lot of police officers and especially with me with the community policing department, we would like to have two more. One community police station on the north side and one on the south side. And I would put Todd Priebe on the north side and John Winter on the south side make Todd drive a little further to work. I also heard on WH Bill, I think it was. With Nick Reed, he said it was Mark Elliott. I've always known him as Matt Elliott. So, is that right? Yeah, it's okay. Well, he has a special operations over on South 12th Street. I met him many years ago over at the Zion UCC church. And he's a very excellent, I was in that bank building and he has mats up there and he gives services. He said he will give services both to the sheriff's department and the police department. And he says it's free, but I don't think it's free. It wouldn't cost the taxpayers any money. I think he's still gonna charge. But that's another option we have to go privatize. I suppose we can't talk about municipal courts anymore. Okay. So I thank you for listening to me and you're still my friend. I am Earl Meir. I live at 2215 North 26th Street. Been a resident of Sheboygan for 49 years. I think we should go back to the 23rd Street site. I would think a handshake should be just a solid deal as a signature. And then to take that same handshark lay after and figuratively thumb your nose at the county and say, eh, I don't think it's right. I think we don't know what else may be coming along in the future, but I think we should try to do all we can to seek cooperation with the county. Thank you. Thank you. Good evening, I'm Carter Paulus and I reside at 414 Erie Avenue. It's interesting that the more you listen and the more you study, the more you find out. It seems to me that the Common Council has lacked in communication with the public. And so the public has to go digging. One of the interesting side lights of the 23rd Street site and all of the bargaining that was taking place was that the county wanted to get this parking lot at 7th and Pennsylvania Avenue for their use. How are they surviving today? And as long as they have had the county courthouse and also have added their annex and their other building, their executive and their other offices in a new building, Katie Corner from the county courthouse. When this particular parking lot is administered and run by the city of Sheboygan and it has 51 parking spaces, 46 of which at last count are rented at $25 a month. Two people that work in the bank building, not in the county offices. And that amounts to something over $130,000 a year income just from that parking lot. So maybe Dulcy Johnson has a valid argument about the transaction. But why isn't the Common Council bringing this information out to the public? I think it has a material effect on what you think you might be doing for a place for a police facility. I can't tell you how pleased I was to hear that the city of Sheboygan finally agreed to go with the county on an evidence storage and police shooting range effort down at the drop off site, the old drop off site on New Jersey Avenue. I thought at last a light in the future was showing up. There is what, I think 5.2 acres there which should be more than sufficient also for a complete police facility along with the shooting gallery, along with the evidence storage site. So why isn't that in consideration? And that is only a few blocks from the Sheridan Park location that so many people were avidly for. And as far as Sheridan Park is concerned, the only thought that comes to my mind as far as parks is God isn't making any more land. So why not save the parks and use other facilities and the drop off site sounds pretty good. So you've got 5.2 acres on the drop off site, you've got 4.1 acres I think on the 23rd Street site. Do you have some serious thinking to do there? Thank you for your time. Edward Kowski and I live at 2632 North 8th Street. You know, a light went on this evening when I heard a lot of people talking about what is shared services and what about the location for the police facility. And I'm not too sure that we're not doing this a little bit backwards. It appears to me that we're looking for a police facility and then we're going to determine what shared services we can use in that police facility. And I would propose that before you do that, perhaps you ought to define what our shared services because apparently that appears to be not understood by many people. I define shared services and I give you some examples of what I see as cost savings. Number one, a shared police range, pistol range or whatever you want to call it, makes sense because you only need, if you build two, don't you need two people to run it? If you build one, you need one. A evidence storage location, need one person to supervise it, not two. What about dispatch? If you have two dispatch centers, then you need two people, three people, two supervisors. Isn't it better if you have one? If you have one garage that services all of the police and sheriff's vehicles, do you not save labor? You may not need as many mechanics. You certainly don't need the inventory of supplies because the cars are pretty much the same. New vehicles that come out on the market require additional tools to be purchased to service them, which you would eliminate that need. And again, you would eliminate duplication of supervision. Let's talk about the police cars themselves. I don't think anybody in the community cares what color the police car is. All you care about is that you're gonna get a ticket. Well, we use our police cars here in the city, which is stop and go. The county uses theirs in the county, which is more highway. Well, don't they keep a few cars in reserve for a breakdown? Don't we keep a few cars in reserve for a breakdown? Could we not eliminate or at least reduce the number of cars that are purchased for backup if we were to share those types of vehicles? So you have law enforcement of Sheboygan County rather than two different colored police cars so they could be interchanged and perhaps extend the life of those facilities. If you have one garage rather than two, you don't have the maintenance on two garages. You have the maintenance on one garage. If you have a shared storage facility for salt, you can purchase it together and you don't have to have two. You don't have to have a forklift, two forklifts to move the salt around. You don't have to have two forklifts to load the trucks. You have one. I could go on and on and on of the things that I see as shared services to save money. But I think what is most important is that I think you ought to define what the shared services and savings to the taxpayers would be first. And then together with the Sheriff's Department decide where that facility should be to accommodate those shared services and not the other way around. Because obviously whether it's paid by the county, paid by the state, paid by the federal government or paid by the city, that's paid by me and my tax dollars. And I think that we do a real disservice to the individuals of this country if we don't stop defining our own territory and start operating like a community. And a community is bigger than just the city of Sheboygan. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Anyone else wishing to be heard? Hello, I'm Dimple Adams and I live at 1424 Virginia Avenue in Sheboygan. I've lived in Sheboygan since 1976 and have lived at this address since 1987. And my late husband has lived there since the mid-70s. So we've lived at the Virginia Avenue address for a long time and I've been a taxpayer there. I have made my thoughts pretty well known from the get go about most of this. And I've read this many times in the Sheboygan press about the Sheboygan police station site. And you know, you couldn't make this up starting since 2001. What has transpired here? I mean, you know, what is it that we cannot make a decision and stick to it? I just don't understand this. And now the cost has escalated again. Now a lot of good points have been brought out tonight. And there is still an answer about the shared services that no one has ever answered. I mean, we get up here and we say when you say that it's cheaper to have shared services at 23rd Street, I wanna know why it's cheaper at 23rd Street than it would have been say at Sheridan Park when Sheridan Park was an issue. No one's ever answered that. Could someone answer that for me? Is it possible? I don't believe tonight they can answer that. Okay, cause I thought that's what this was was to be able to ask questions and get answers. But we were looking for a lot of the information ourselves to ask the engineer. Well, I know that that's been said in the paper many times that it was advantageous. So I'm assuming that because it's been said many, many times that surely to goodness someone has it written down somewhere, maybe I'm mistaken about that. Another thing that I have talked about repeatedly is that this is the house of the police department. It is going to be their house. Yes, it is going to be owned by the city taxpayers, but I have begged repeatedly and asked repeatedly where are the policemen with their input? I hear a little bit every once in a while about, I mean, okay, so they preferred Sheridan Park site because it was centrally located. They do not prefer the 23rd Street site. Period. They don't want it there. They don't think it's a good location. So I'm still wondering why we are considering that site. Can someone answer that one for me? There were five sites chosen and that's how many are. My question is why are we sticking with that chosen site? When the police department who should have, I think one of the main priorities as far as the decision-making here, I don't want it there. Why do we continually push that site? I just don't understand it. In fact, I got an interesting call a couple of weeks ago after I spoke at the last, maybe a month ago. I don't remember. This summer is going by so fast, but anyway, I spoke at the Common Council about a month ago about that very subject that I would like for the police department to be a priority in being considering of where the site is going to be. There's a lot of questions about 23rd Street, which a lot of people have brought up tonight. So I'm not going to repeat them, but I am going to put out one more thing, which is won't we need sidewalks there if a police station is put in a 23rd Street site? Will that not be an expense? Has that been figured in? If you do choose the 23rd Street site, I mean, if people are going to be walking to the police station, won't they need a sidewalk to walk on? Because I don't remember seeing sidewalks in that area. And the cost of that parking lot to me, that's just fuzzy math. It's going to cost a lot more than the $300,000 that I keep hearing. Okay, so now Sheridan Park is off the roll. Well, everybody that knows me knows that I disagreed with that vehemently, but I have accepted it. However, I pass by Sheridan Park every day. I see one, zero, maybe six kids and at Sheridan School playground, I see anywhere from a dozen to two dozen on a daily basis. Now I want somebody to explain that to me when they're right across the street from each other. Why there's more children playing at Sheridan School than there is at Sheridan Park, even in this heatwave. Today, it was that way. I don't know the answer to that, except that I think the neighbors, which I am one of them, has not seen, and then I was told, we were going to revitalize Sheridan Park and to be patient. Well, it's been two months now, and I'm sure we're still being patient, but I have not seen one improvement, period. I don't even see it talked about anymore. I don't hear anything about it anymore. So, you know, and there was all this money going to be donated from some businesses and so forth, and I don't know, you know, there's not new lights there, there's not cameras there, the fence hasn't been put up in May line. The brush has been cut a couple of times, but other than that, I don't see the improvements. Well, you know, summer's almost over now, so maybe by next year when school is out, there might be some improvements, but let's just talk one more thing about Sheridan Park that got lost in all of this mess, okay? Well, Sheridan Park was not going to be lost with the police station being built there. The front half, the west side of Sheridan Park was not even going to hardly be changed at all. The statue was still gonna be there, the honor was still going to be there, even the name Sheridan was still going to be there, and I don't know, if I was a descendant of General Sheridan, I think I could be very proud of having a city put their police department on a piece of land that was donated in my name or named after me and have it be called the Sheridan Park police station of Sheboygan. You know, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong on that, but anyway, now the police have said, the van of our site, we're not listening. We are not listening. I wanna know why we're not listening. Where is the police? I heard Mr. Winter talk the other night, but Chief Detective White's call me about, it was the day after I spoke at the last council meeting that I spoke at, which was in June, like mid June, and he said, because my question was, why are the police not more involved in the selection of this site, that he had been reassured that they were going to be involved and that I shouldn't worry about that anymore, and so I kinda took it that I probably didn't need to speak about that anymore, but I have not seen evidence of that, so if that is the case, I would like for someone to enlighten me about that, and mainly that's it. I support the Sherboygan Police Department. I think it's one of the finest in the country. I think it's one of the finest in the state that have been praised. That NADS program is a wonderful program that Mr. Storm is a part of. My neighborhood had their victory party. I still think we've got lots of drug issues in the area I've shared in part. I don't think they've all gone away. I still don't feel safe to walk in my neighborhood after dark, like I used to. But I just think, and now the cost. Last year we were talking 12 million. Last week, now we're talking 18 million. If we wait another year and wait for this referendum that our SCTA, I think that's the initials to Sherboygan County Taxpayers Alliance is wanting to do, I'm a poll worker in Sherboygan. I've worked at Ward 5 for probably 12 years now, and it's not cheap to do an election. So if they do succeed in getting the signatures, which I don't know if they did, my understanding was the deadline was today, but if they do succeed in getting the signatures for this referendum, we're either gonna have to do two things. Have a special election or wait till next spring. Well, you wait till next spring. If the price went up from last summer to this summer by $6 million, what's it gonna be next year? You know, we've gotta build it now, folks. This has gotten to be amazing. If we were children and we had a mama up here somewhere, she would say, get our acts together, make a decision, stick with it, don't change it, and you know, there's not gonna be a site that everybody is going to 100% agree on, but the best site definitely was Sheridan Park. But now Vandervaard is. Thank you. And now I'd like to take a 10-minute break. We come back at quarter after, and then I continue this. Thank you. You could sign in, please, and state your name and address for the record. Good evening. My name's Mary Dainan, and I live at 3427 South 10th Street. What I did is I kind of wrote a statement suggestion. If y'all don't mind, I'll start. Sure. As I look back these past few months, I think of how this common council has not taken as many steps forward as they should have when it comes to the issue of a new police station. I have seen tongues speak somewhat bitterly when it comes to talks of the police station location and their needs. After hearing the rankings of the designated locations for the police department, what I planned on saying or recommending is now a mute point. I spoke to Mr. Payne earlier this week, and he confirmed that the 23rd Street location is not exclusive to joint services considerations. It doesn't matter to the county where we build our police station. After all, it is our police station. Don't worry. If you build it large enough, they will come, no matter where it's at. What I'd like to suggest at the least is for this council to approve three sites that is feasible to you all, then let the police department choose from those three. After all, they are the ones who are the experts as to what they need, what will most accommodate them and the public at large. I have only lived in Sheboygan for a year now, but I'm glad to be a citizen here, and I see great opportunity and potential for this city. I don't quite understand the error about Sheboygan when it comes to the police department, but I hope it changes soon, for it is very sad and somewhat discouraging as a newcomer to see. I came from Green Bay and worked for their police department just shy of 10 years. The community supported and embraced their police department. I am proud to say my husband is a Sheboygan police officer. I am hoping he and his comrades will have the same opportunity and experience as I did in Green Bay. I hope everybody sets their personal feelings and opinions aside and be the professionals that so many of you already are, and do what is right for everybody concerned, especially for the police department. After all, it is not mine, yours, or my husband's police department. It is ours, ours to support, embrace, and be proud of. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Yeah, my name is Ken Barbian, 232 Lincoln Avenue. There's three sites that the Zimmerman Group picked for the police station, Vanderva, 23rd Street, and City Hall. I consider Vanderva not a good site because of the size and location. It's 15 to 19 acres. It has real access and a major highway going right by it, which is business 42. It would be ideal to put an industry in there so that we could put Sheboygan people to work and to be paying taxes to the city and not putting a police station there and then figuring out what you're gonna put next to it. Would an industry go in in 10 acres? Maybe, maybe not. What size of an industry? The City Hall site, they wanna tear down the garage and build a three to four-story building. The architects have already said that a multi-story building for the police site is unfeasible. The 23rd Street site, everybody's saying that it's no good because it's not centrally located. What's centrally located? The police station is supposed to be lasting 20 to 30 years. Sheboygan can only build three ways, North, South, and West. If they build East, they're gonna have to put the building on barges. And I don't see that as an issue. So in 20 years, is 23rd Street even gonna be a centrally located site? And they started this process in 1995. In 1999, the cost of building the police station was seven to eight million dollars. Last week at the council meeting, they said that the cost now to build on 23rd Street is 18 million dollars. And to build on a site, Vandivert site was over 19 million dollars. How much longer are we gonna wait for the council to make a decision on a police station site based on the Zimmerman report and have it go up another 10 million dollars? It's already been 10 years. I say, let's pick a site, vote on it, and get it built. And I feel that the 23rd Street site is the best site. At this time, it is not centrally located, but in 20 to 30 years, is it gonna be centrally located even then? And the thing is with the proper foundation, if you're thinking of building a three to four story building behind City Hall, put a proper foundation in out on 23rd Street, and in 20 years, if they need to expand, then put a second floor on there. It might be a little more expensive now, but in the long run, you can make that 20 years last 40 or 50 years by just going and building a foundation that would support a second floor if needed. If something would ever happen to City Hall here, then you would have a second floor that you could put all the city officers in and leave the police station on the first floor. They would still have their first floor facilities. Thank you very much. Could you spell your last name for us, please? Yes, B-A-R-B-I-A-N. Thank you. I'm Joseph N. Segel, I'm senior. Joseph N. Segel, S-A-G-A-L, senior. And you're address? 1522 Alabama Avenue. Bear with me, I ain't a speaker, but I've been taking notes like everybody else and I've been harassed on this police station for a long time. They go back, this should have been built 20 years ago. Why wasn't it? I'm still digging into it. We were offered that bank on the corner there for a good price and it was turned down. I'm still finding out what who does the council was and the mayor because that was ridiculous. They could have the whole block here. And another site was never brought up where the old Kingsbury brewery was. That was never brought up. We owned that. What are they gonna build there now? Some more apartments or condominiums or whatever. That was ideal. They talk about in like Sheridan Park, in the thing. They could have had it right there. We had it, we owned it. Now we gave it away or sold it. This is getting ridiculous. Now it is higher price that's been going up. I know the report things aren't in yet the final, but why it escalated to so high? Whether they's put more rooms under this police station or what? I know you guys don't know that either. But when that final report comes in, I like to know the whole building, the yardage. They get onto this 20 year thing. I hear this all the time because they know I'm hot on this police station. And I get it all the time when they talk to me about it. I said, don't talk to me, go inquire about it. Well, why don't you? Because I said, now I am inquiring about it and I'll find out what happened within the last 15 or 20 years. And while the estimate on this thing, I said the reports aren't all in yet. I know you guys, you can't say it because you don't have it here. But why it escalated so fast from last year to this year, the prices go up, but that much? Are they putting more rooms onto that building? The original price that was put in, I believe it was three years ago and the capital improvements was like $8 million. That's what I thought too. Okay, but now the architect, when he was designing it, he put in or he looked at a 80,000 square foot building. And that was the first time there was a square foot each put to it. And that was based on the estimates that the police officers felt they needed for the various activities that they were doing in the building. So based on the 80,000 square foot, that's where that cost of between $16 and $17 or $18 million came from. Does that include the so-called court that they wanted also? I believe the court was originally included in the 80,000 square feet. So as that amount drops, the price will drop. Plus the sharing though with the shooting range in that, that's what 800,000, a rough estimate. Now, if they have that in the same building, wouldn't that bring the cost down? I don't know, they have it in the same building. I'm just stating that. I mean, I know you don't because we don't have the figures here. And like you said, you would hope and that would be here this week, but they were given until the end of the month. And a lot of people that are going hog while on that, they were given until the end of the month to give different, their prices on different land. And Vannevar, that's a good situation. And they talked about trading land, but that could be a difficult situation too. It ain't that easy just to say, well, we'll trade it is for that. Or like even with the county, they said, that's another thing I couldn't understand why. They wanted our parking lot on the, what, 7th and Penn. And we have to give them 300,000 more. Isn't that land worth money? Their land is worth money, but ours isn't. I mean, I like sharing. We should share with them. And the more we do, we should have been done years ago, but there were some blockheads in both sides of the government in town and out of town. I didn't write everything down, but I kept up on it and I read it. And that was ridiculous when they just got to be so blocked that they wouldn't talk to each other. That isn't what, we pay taxes for both the county and the city. And then they can't talk with each other. That's getting out of hand. And I'm glad that they are starting to now. And I mean both sides. It should have been done a long time ago. Somebody should have put their foot down and said, hey, we're representing the people no matter if we're county or city, that's their money either way. And they should have got into it. I think that's all I can think of now. I'm glad I could speak this well. Thank you. Hi. Hi. I'm Gina Steinhardt at 1311 Maryland Avenue, which is one block from Sheridan Park, which everybody probably knows by now. I wasn't going to say anything tonight, but after reading through the report on the costs, it seems to me that the cost of this police station is very excessive for any of the sites chosen. Their landscaping design varies from 15,000 to 30,000 depending on the site. 30,000 for Vandervaart, why? Just because it's big. I mean, we don't need to have the whole thing. We don't need to spend that much money there. You know, cut back on some of these things. Cable hookup is more at the drop off site and at Vandervaart when they are closer than any of the other sites to the cable vision company. So that makes no sense at all either, why it would be $5,000 more just to go across the street at Vandervaart. It just doesn't make any sense. The radio tower too varies between $100,000 and $325,000 and the radio transmitter between $10,000 and $30,000 spending on the site. And then when I was looking over the furniture and the furnishings, I mean, the costs are outrageous. I mean, you guys have been fighting over the police station for in the sites for 10 years, maybe even 20 years making do with what we have here. Why not take some of the stuff that we have here, take them along with and make do still and take the costs off of us tax players. We don't need to provide a Taj Mahal police department or Taj Mahal anything, you know, there's no reason why everything's gotta be top of the line so everybody can have the best of everything when we've been making do just fine for this long. We do need a new police department, but we don't have to go crazy on these costs. They are just outrageous. Just look at the report. You'll see that. Plus something that wasn't even in the costs, as always, which I can't understand is with this 23rd Street site, the swap and all of that kind of stuff, some of that cost isn't figured into that report, plus also there's no mention of the contamination issues which the county has not addressed that they will take care of. They have not said anything about it. This issue keeps getting swept under the carpet as if it doesn't exist. There is contamination there. The Moyer Report even acknowledges it. It has been found. It's going to have to be addressed. It's going to cost more money. It's gonna cost more than that's on that's report. So besides the location, not even the centrally located part, but like he said before, there's no north-south access to North 23rd Street. So they have to go all the way to 14th to get to the north and south of the city. Then why aren't we building closer to 14th? To me, it's just ridiculous that you'd build way out west just so you can travel ways just to get to the street that you can build on in the first place. It doesn't make any sense. As Dimple said, we were always for Sheridan Park because it's not being used. It's in a neighborhood that needs help. We haven't gotten help yet. And yes, we are disappointed in that. Not one thing has been put through in two months' time when it was rush, rush, rush to save the park. But no, that's not fixed any of the problems now. But then when we decided to compromise, we said, hey, we're all for compromising. We're not gonna fight you anymore. It's ridiculous to fight over an issue constantly and not get somewhere. Let's just all agree that it has to be centrally located. That's what the police want. The police even called us and thanked us for getting their input involved. So they appreciate the fact that Dimple and I have come up here and said repeatedly, police department needs to be listened to. It's their building. It's what they need. They're the ones who know their needs better than any of us, any of you, any of anybody. The police know what they need. They should be listened to and they're not. And not having North-South access besides the sidewalks, the contamination, all of the other little issues with the parking lot and everything else. 23rd Street should be thrown out and gotten rid of right away. It's silly to keep going over and over. Same issues and not getting anywhere. We're just chasing our tails here. It's just stupid. I think we have to move on like everybody said and get something built. This costs are going way up every single day it seems. And I just think that the police definitely have to be listened to in this and that nobody's political ambitions, whether it's the counties, the cities, whoever's on the council, whoever's on the mayoral staff, anybody, none of their opinions should mean more and should cloud the judgment of what's really necessary for the whole city. North 23rd Street is not a very good site. And everybody says so. There's a few that are backing it. I don't know why, maybe they own stock in it. But it's silly because it's just fighting over something that's basically getting us nowhere. And I think we have to just come up with a consensus, like was mentioned before. Not everybody's gonna love the site. But the main thing is the police should not love it necessarily, but have it work well for them. And if they have no North-South access to their building, what good is it for the rest of the city? What good is it for even them or anyone? So let's get this over with, get on with it, move on and start making do. So all of us taxpayers, including you all that live here, we don't have to bear the brunt of more and more costs added to this building and to this situation. It shouldn't get this out of hand. Thanks. I just wanna mention something. I wasn't gonna say anything, but I have to. But the police were interviewed for this various equipment and so forth that they asked for. And that's where those cost estimates come from. From what they said they wanted, not necessarily what they needed, but what they said they wanted in the new police facility. So that's why those costs are as they are. And also if you will recall, and I'm not sure if you were here, but Tom Houlton addressed the pollution at the 23rd Street site. He said they didn't say that there wasn't. He said that there was some, but it was nothing that we should be worried about as far as their soil borings. But if you read the Moira report, it quotes it very clearly. I'm just saying, Tom just gave that information to us. And then also according to what was given, the information given to us that the 23rd Street site was brought up in an as is condition. So the county already addressed the point of who's gonna pay for the cleanup of that pollution. And that's when Tom said that it was not. That would be us. So that's what I mean. More cross for the taxpayers. That report is Elden's probably pointing out to you. Does say that there is contamination issues. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can offer this, which is from the Zimmerman design group. This is the bit of information that we just recently received that looks at all the sites. And this is how they speak to what they call the geotechnical assay of the 23rd Street site. Are there known soil conditions that make construction of a project on the site cost prohibitive? Generally speaking rule of thumb is that all all that can be applied to the evaluation of the issue risk is higher when proceeding without soil exploration. But in general terms, the sites all have the same amount of risk. The 23rd Street site bears less risk than other sites since it has been explored in general terms. And that's the, from the Zimmerman design group, the most recent report we've received. I still think that's rather vague in the way they're putting it. They're not exactly addressing the fact that there is or isn't there. They're just saying there's less chance, which doesn't really mean much. When we find it, we're gonna find out more costs and then it's gonna be added. And I just think, we just have to move on. It's just not, even without that issue. There's so many other issues with the parking lot and the North South access and all of these other issues that don't work for it. And it's so many other sites are so much better. And adding extra costs such as the radio tower is more expensive in one site or one area or the landscaping cost is more expensive on Vandervaart than anywhere else. Well, that's a great way to pad up Vandervaart that is so much worse of a site than North 23rd Street. Somebody's got some political ambitions that was writing in this report and I don't think that they did it fairly across the board. Maybe they'll say they did. And maybe there is some truth to it, but for Cable to be more when they're just going across the street, I mean, there's a lot of costs in here that just are very questionable. And I think everybody should take a very close look at this. This could be pared down a lot and this could save us a lot more money and us taxpayers don't need that extra cost. Mr. Mayor. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to point out that the police department on behalf of the police department is Chief Kirk that is the department head. They have been involved. They've been involved a lot. They also have the opportunity to meet with me any time they'd like. All they have to do is call my secretaries that I'd like to meet with the mayor. I meet with them frequently on this issue. So they have been involved, but there's a clear distinction that needs to be made between the decision making, responsibility that the police department has and what this council and I have. And that is the people will ultimately hold us accountable for the decisions, not the department heads. We're the one to get elected. We're the ones that are gonna be held accountable by the people for the amount of money we spend or don't spend for the location we pick or don't pick for anything that has to do with a decision. This council and be as mayor will be held accountable by the people, not department heads. They work for the city. They don't get elected. So there comes a time that that distinction needs to be made. Their involvement is critical, it's crucial, it's key, but then there's a point where that involvement has to stop and the decision making responsibility lies on the council and the mayor. Thank you. Mr. Montemara. Thank you. My name is Lee Montemara Jr. 1015 Logan. And I'd like to correct, I spoke on the first input session and I made a mention that the words of 80 meetings being used a lot. And I said 46 meetings when actually it was 41 meetings. 19 of those 41 were closed sessions which the public does not have any input on nor access to, okay? I'm a friend of Sheboygan Parks member. And I have to remind everybody that our mission statement in our comprehensive plan, which is our mission staple for this city tells you that you have to create parks and you have to maintain and protect the ones that you do have. Every alderman, animator, every city official here is sworn to that duty. The police station we've needed for years. I keep saying this because it's just now getting around to it. That comprehensive plan tells you then when it was first brought up that you needed a police station. And I believe that was in 1991 that we got that plan and we still haven't got it built. One of the reasons it hasn't been built is because we don't have a process or didn't have a process of public input in here. If you'd have done this many years ago, this thing would have been built already. It has to be built in the right place because I keep caring about the parking lot on six and 10 and here's a good example of what happened in 1932 when we built the courthouse down by the lake. If you'd have looked at 70 years down the line, say the 2002, you would have known that you needed that courthouse west here. You wouldn't have the problem you have there now if this process had been done when we started talking about building a police station. We'd have had it done. It would have been built already. But if you leave it to just a few individuals to do this, you can tell what happened. We've gone backwards and we had to start the process all over again to the point now where the public is really involved in it. They're gonna tell you where you're gonna build it. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ernest M. Kepler, 2533 Lakeshore Drive. First of all, I would like to both compliment and thank Mayor Juan Perez for initiating these public forums. It's in keeping with the campaign promise of citizenry input and it brings true democracy to action which I'm proud to be a member of. Tonight, we heard a lot of good ideas, a lot of input. Cost, we also roughly spoke on, but the main emphasis tonight should be location. And I'm not gonna ponder on the fact that I think this council squandered 24,000 of my dollars to get an opinion from a architectural firm and yet we're still debating it and we're not listening to that recommendation. Let me say this. From what I hear and what I understand, the Vandervaart site, if I understand correctly, this company is willing to swap land even Steven with the city. I think we should do it. It's a wonderful idea. It's a golden opportunity but not use that land to build a police station, use that land to develop and let's expand that tax base. I was kind of surprised to hear that that huge amount of acreage is only paying $24,000 a year on property taxes. When I'm paying almost seven and I just got a simple city lot, unbelievable. It comes down to that there seems to me two viable locations, one just north of this building, adjacent to it and one to 23rd Street. And I think there's good points to say on both locations. Should it be viable to have a police station on the first floor of city hall as it is now and expanded northward across the alley right up to the back door of the fire station, if you would. And then in Capis on top of that, multi-story buildings and you renovate city hall and bring it up to modernization and you bring in all of the outlaying offices that you're paying rental to and you put it under one roof. I think there's something to be said for that. North 23rd Street gives you opportunity of a new slate and perhaps geographically the best opportunity today for shared services. And that too would be, I think, more cost advantage. So in my opinion, it comes down to two locations, city hall or North 23rd Street. Which one do you decide? You love with your heart but you think with your pocketbook and which is the most economically and efficient way to do it. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else who wishes to speak, we have 11 minutes left of this listening session. My name is Scott Levendusky, 2201 Erie Avenue. I just wanna mention a few things that I've heard tonight. One is that I think we need a police station as soon as possible. And that should be the biggest priority is how fast can we build it. The police department needs a new building. I had a tour of this police station downstairs a couple months ago. What they call the dime tour which is the longer tour. And I was always told how bad it was. And I did not realize how bad it was until I was in the station for a tour. And it's just a big lawsuit waiting to happen if somebody gets hurt. And that's gonna really raise the price of a new police station if you also have a lawsuit that you would lose. And I've heard about the population of Sheboygan not growing too much in the last 30 years or 40 years. Maybe the population hasn't changed but if you look at a map of land area you're gonna see a much bigger city now than you did in the say mid 1960s. In the mid 1960s there was no mall even where sunny ridges now was out in the county. That was not city property. You had hardly anything north of North Avenue and you had hardly anything south of Wilson Avenue. All of that area is now city property and the police need to patrol that. So they do need a bigger police station for that factory alone. I did a book a few years ago about Born's Park which was in Sheboygan. And Born's Park was owned by a gentleman by the name of Charles Born. He was the second police chief of Sheboygan. He was an alderman and he was a four term mayor of Sheboygan. In 1895 he started to pull for a new police station and city hall to be built in Sheboygan. 20 years later the police station was finally built. He had selected a site that he thought was the best possible site. Nobody agreed with him. 20 years later they built on his site that he had proposed which was the northeast corner of ninth and center. Now we're arguing again over where to build a police station for many years. About a week ago I was at Meade Library looking at a Sheboygan press from 1980 on microfilm. I saw an article about a common council meeting the night before. Their main subject in 1980 at the common council meeting was a new police station and shared services. And 25 years later we're still arguing about a new police station site. Will there be a perfect site? No. I favored a 23rd Street site because in the last election the majority of the people that voted let it be known that they were for saving shared in park and building a 23rd Street site. That's why we have a new mayor and some new alderman because the people wanted the 23rd Street site. And that's what a lot of people still want but you're also getting sick and tired of hearing about it and the arguing. And I've heard, can't they agree? Now we have people that are against 23rd Street site because they were for shared in park. Maybe that's true, maybe it's not. I hear about contamination at the 23rd Street site. How do we know that there's not contamination at the Vandervaart site? That's been a business for how many years? There's got to be contamination on that site. But nobody knows for sure if there is. And as for 23rd Street and Superior being a bad location to get to and from for the police officers, the police officers are not going to be spending the entire day at that station. They're going to be out on the streets. And as for getting on the Superior Avenue, I lived on the corner of 23rd and Superior Avenue for 10 years. I had no trouble getting across Superior Avenue and the fire department has no trouble getting apart across Superior Avenue or Kohler Memorial Drive and they're two blocks away from the 23rd Street site. And if the fire department doesn't have a problem, I don't see why the police department should. Also, this report gave for the attachment to City Hall it gave it the worst possible scores in three areas. And that was future expansion, size, and parking. We took away Sheridan Park because a lot of people felt it was too small. This site to the north of the building would be even smaller. And even Officer John Winter said that the other night that he did not see how that would work on a smaller site. And I just think that we should decide to go with 23rd Street soon as possible and get ground broke as soon as possible. The other sites might be nice too, but when you have to try to get the property or switch to land trades, I mean, I'm sure Vandervaart's not going to give up the land that they have until they have a new place built. And one question I have is right now, their site is 19 acres. The largest site available to them in the industrial park would be 10 acres. Why would they want less land for an even swap? And I want to thank everybody for allowing me to speak here and I want to thank everybody else that spoke tonight. Thank you. Something I forgot to ask when I was up here before was the cost of that park in Launt cost the city of Sheboygan. It's my understanding when they built it. 480 something thousand dollars. So I don't understand why the estimated value of it is less than that. And then if we were to have to rebuild it, why isn't all of that figured in? I mean, you know, you keep saying that the cost of the 23rd Street site would be $300,000. It's not $300,000. It's a lot more than that. And I just think that we need to be very explicit when we're explaining this to the taxpayers. And again, I think all the points that were brought out tonight about access to North South just doesn't cut it at 23rd Street site. And another thing is the police don't want it there. Thank you. One thing about that parking lot though, I don't believe that was the one that cost 400 and some thousand dollars. I think that was a parking lot on, was it Center Avenue and Seven Street that may have cost that much? Could you check that for us and make sure and let us know? Thank you. And thank you very much for allowing us to come tonight. I would just like to add something to my statement earlier. Sure. And that is when the county chairperson was here in front of the council and Adam Payne in front of the council giving their report would have been two council meetings ago, I believe. They said that the city would pay the county to build a new salt shed. And if the city built on 23rd Street site, the city could have the old salt shed. They could use it for whatever they wanted. Perfect storage facility for anything. They could put cars in there. They could put anything they wanted in there. So they're not paying the county to build a new salt shed. They're getting the old county salt shed as a swap. So it is not costing the city $300,000 for that property. It's costing the city minus the cost of the old salt shed. Thank you very much. Thank you. I'm gonna wait Ben just once to find it. Yes. I would like to add one last comment. You know, a lot of people thinking the city of Sheboygan is gonna grow west. I'm sorry, but I don't think Herbie Kohler and the village of Kohler is gonna annex anytime soon to the city of Sheboygan. Because basically, the model land left for us to annex west is up to maybe Highway 43. So I'm sorry, westerly growing for the city of Sheboygan is probably not gonna happen. City of Sheboygan is probably gonna grow north and south and the way it looks like probably only south because we're getting landlock going north. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Tonight again, we were speaking about the public input for a police station and the various sites that we have to choose from. I wanna thank everybody who attended and thank y'all for speaking your mind. And we will try and get answers to many of the questions that were answered or to all the questions that were answered. And in the coming month, I would guess something will come out regarding your concerns. If not, please give your alderman a call and they will bring in a request for that information. I know they all would, if their alderman doesn't do it for you, contact the committee of the chair, committee of the whole chairperson who has a little note here saying any questions, please feel free to contact me. And her telephone number is 458-5855 and she will bring that information and those questions into the committee of the whole. I know in the future, another public input session is going to be held after we narrow down the sites and we'll appreciate your comments at that time too. So with that, I'd like to again thank everybody and say good night.