 I'm Julia Patrick and I'm delighted to have you here on another episode of The Non-Profit Show. Today, Meredith, Tarianne and I are greeting Alicia Eastfold, one of the managers at your part-time controller. Okay, we brought you on to talk about tech, but we ended up talking about alligators in the green room. That's true. Right, Alicia? Yeah, whatever comes up. Talk to us a little bit about what we're going to be hearing from you today, because this is a very interesting conversation. Yeah, today I'm hoping we can talk about there's so much tech that's available. There's so many things that can help organizations, but just like why we don't schedule the appointment for the eye doctor, when we could see right away if we just made the appointment, there's all sorts of reasons that we don't sign on to this new tech, we don't know where to go, we don't know what to find, but just with some simple steps you could really jump right in and it could really help your organization. I love it. I love the eye doctor thing, everybody I think at a certain age can relate to that. One of the other things that we can all relate to is the Non-Profit Show. We just celebrated our 1,000th episode and tomorrow we will just finish our fourth year going into our fifth year of broadcasting. We are here because of our sponsors and they include Bloomerang, American Non-Profit Academy, Non-Profit Thought Leader, Staff and Boutique, Your Part-Time Controller, 180 Management Group, Fundraising Academy at National University, JMT Consulting, Non-Profit Therapy and Non-Profit Tech Talk. These are the folks that join us day in and day out. If you want to find some of our archives, like I said, about more than 1,000 shows, we've got an app. You can dream us or you can listen to our podcasts. We'll meet you where you are and really help you with your journey and your Non-Profit. Alicia Eastfield, we've had you on before. You're a manager at Your Part-Time Controller, but you said something in the green room and you kind of like painted a new picture and even almost gave yourself a new title. Tell us what that is. Well, we were talking about the need for a tech sommelier. I've been trying to think of the term for like what it means to choose something and when you go to a restaurant and you have a wine sommelier, they pair your tasting with all sorts of things. You're thinking of what's on the rack at the time, what's available, what might be new, what might be in your budget, but also what you're eating and who you are as a diner. We really need something like that for technology because every Non-Profit is different. Everybody has different needs and different structures. One size just doesn't fit all. You really need someone to help you through that. The hardest part of the job is trying to figure out what I hear over and over again is it's about finding and choosing the right technology is the hardest part. I love that because when did you ever go to a restaurant and the sommelier made an offering or a suggestion where you didn't take them up on it because you felt like they were far more educated than you and they did take in all of those factors. It's a super cool way to look at this and especially for me, I feel like it alleviates some of the fear that can go. One of the starting points you recommend is asking why implement tech. I feel like we're always like, we got to do it, we got to do it, but we don't really know why. Yeah. Well, I really think we have business missions, we have organizational aspirations. But thinking, I don't know how often we think, can tech inform every single step of our organizational strategy? And I think when you know your why, when you have your business strategy and think, tech is there to help you. It can help you start doing something like reaching more people or hiring new staff or applying for bigger funding that may have more requirements around it, right? Tech helps you with that. Or it could be things that you need to stop doing so that you have more energy and time and resources to give to your mission. That's the kind of stuff that tech helps do. And if you could go back to your organizational strategy and think, how does tech inform this? I think that's how we need to be thinking about technology no matter what. And we're seeing it, all sorts of tech can help, including AI. And I know you've done some things on AI, but I think every single step of the way, when we start with the why, it helps everything fall into place. The hurdles that you're going to have to overcome, the cost of it, the time it takes, the processes, when you have your why really clear, it's easier because you know your reason. Just like when we have our New Year's resolutions, like when we just have a goal of a, you know, I got to lose this, well, why do I want to lose it? So I can pick up my grandkids so I can go run a marathon. Those are the things that help us keep our goals. And that helps us too. OK, so I've got to ask this question. Like, how do we get everybody on the same page? Because programming why might be different than development why? Then C-suite, then, I mean, is this like a group thing? Or do we just all put it in the hopper and see what happens? Like how do we get people to even have those discussions, right? Yeah. I mean, first is probably like, I think of it like a funnel. You look at your overall organizational why and how the tech can inform that and you funnel it down to how each part of your organization fulfills that mission. I mean, at YPTC, we have all sorts of different departments. And like, for instance, our discussions right now around AI, it's not, hey, we're just going to choose to do AI for the purpose of doing AI. It's how do we more meaningfully do our financial reports? That's our accounting services. Or maybe the AI is going to help our HR department be able to look through our emails or help us communicate better. Each of it has to do with it all comes back to your larger mission and then funnels down to each of your departments on what you want to accomplish. So I think getting that larger mission really clear and how each piece fits. And then I think that's where the tech comes into it. Because usually tech is around the pain points of your job, the tedious parts of your job that you know, I don't need to be doing this, but I don't know the way to make it any better. That's where tech comes in. And sometimes that's where like a person who's informed around what tech can do can even give you ideas that you maybe didn't even imagine that tech could help you with. So. So now here's a question for you, Alicia. This is maybe an unpopular opinion, but I'm curious what you think about this because you're right with this topic on tech. I mean, there's so much that we can get in terms of help, right? Assistance and what we're doing through tech. What do you what do you think about outsourcing some some tasks that we oftentimes have on our staff to like these programs? I mean, I say it's an unpopular opinion because, you know, some folks look at that and say, well, you're putting folks out of a job. But at the same time, like you said, I mean, there's some aspects, tedious aspects of our of our jobs, maybe that could be more efficiently and absolutely with the help of tech. Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, I'm in outsourced accounting. So and in our particular field, we're wrestling with this right now, right? We see tech that will replace a lot of the tasks that we do. And I love the story of hidden figures. I don't know if you've seen the movie where the the whole the human calculator used to be a thing that was a career that you could do. And the whole movie, the backdrop is them building the IBM computer in the other room. And I forget the name of the lead character where she's she's watching it. And she goes and picks up the manual in the room and starts learning how to run the IBM and the whole team by the end is moving. You have to change your skills. And I mean, the part that's scary and where this is not easy. But if you can get on board with saying change is going to happen and you got to get on the boat, you got to be a part of that change. Because if you don't, you it does start affecting your your possibilities with and point, but this is happening across our country. So if we can skill up, we can learn to think higher level about what I bring to the table, I you will still need an account. You will still need somebody to set up your software because you're going to need somebody with a mind who can integrate all of the different conversations I have with you and ask the questions and vet what the technology is doing. I don't think tech will ever completely replace us, but we do need to keep skilling up and that should be where our organizations go. And that's nonprofit or not. We have to keep thinking larger with especially if you have a job that is slated for automation, you've got to be looking at that. So and I know that full well, that's that's my profession right now. You know, another thing that you advise us and I can't wait to hear more about this is you say, don't go it alone. Seek guide support and other users. Yeah, when we're looking at really understanding how tech can change our work, you know, improve things, navigate us in a different direction. What does this look like to you? Well, it looks like having the humility to know that this is going to be a hard process and that unless you are in the field, let like just like a wine Somalia who step like think of like how much work they got to do to go to school to become a Somalia. So if you are going at it alone, you need to find people around you to help you can get pretty far, you know, I can go to Trader Joe's and I can do some reading up and probably find some good wine. And Julia, I always have all these fun analogies and they just keep coming out because I like you say these things and I'm like in your shoes. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm going down the aisle. I can't really get it. Yeah, I mean, you kind of need one you got to get up to up to speed, right? You do need to have some tech technology or get somebody in your company who does to think about it, but you can't go at it by yourself. And so you got to figure out where where can I go to get that that support? And the worst decision, I think, is counting on a sales call with with the software and they show you the bells and whistles and to think that that is going to be the true story is the biggest myth I have seen and so many people fall into it and and organizations make huge financial commitments thinking, oh, I need to do this because this is what I heard everybody does. Well, sometimes that's not what your organization needs. You need you need support and guidance to help you. So yeah, and I have lots of ways that I go look for that support. So, you know, I look for it within our company. We've got over 500 accountants that I work with that are excellent. They're and we're kind of tech agnostic. We're not stuck on one piece of software. So we try everything and we give I love the people who have no skin in the game to tell you like if they're not going to get a cut from somebody and they can say this is a tool. We recommend that's who I like to listen to. You know, yeah, and I think, too, it's it's it's almost like, you know, I align it to cosmetics, hope in a jar. You're going to put the serum on and you're going to be 25 years younger overnight and all your problems will be solved. And then you're like you wake up and you're like, holy cow, I still look like my great-grandmother, right? I mean, there's some truth to this like process and fear. And I think leveling expectations is a is a huge issue because we don't really seem to understand what we need, how we're going to get there and what it looks like. So let's talk about this because you have some really, I think, amazing advice and along a line of attitude mindset talk to us about realistic pessimism with equal optimism. Yeah, well, I heard this phrase from my my dear friend, Kelly Soyfer. She had shared that and it's it's a common phrase. You might have heard it, but that we often underestimate the work in the short term that we think it's going to be way easier. Oh, this is a piece of cake, but then we over estimate the work it takes in the long term, and we have to reverse that type of thinking. We need to be ready for a little bit more up front. We need to not think, oh, this is an easy fix, but we need to have optimism that if we put a little bit of footwork in in the beginning, we're going to get there. And that's that's I think the big part of designing tech is to give yourself some time. You won't even know what questions you need to have answered. You may think you do, but you go in another level and another level and another level. And then all of a sudden you realize, oh my gosh, I didn't think of all these things. And that's where a community around you that's gone there before that is thought of those questions ahead of time is really, really helpful because they'll they'll fast track you to the right questions or to the right resources to help you. You know, I love what you're saying here, Alicia, because one, like we just talked about on the last slide, right? One of this this idea of bringing in tech to maybe in some cases replace what we're doing as human beings. But realistically, we still need training on the tech, right? I mean, we the tech is there to complement or to help us. I mean, we still need human beings that like know how to use the tech. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. And if you think about that's that that middle process that in between the first choosing and then finally getting to that, look, we're here is you have to count on it changing your processes. It will change the way you work, especially if you're going through a big shift. If you're going through, you know, a brand new soft accounting software, for instance, is a really big transition. So you don't take it lightly. Some shifts are a little bit smaller and maybe looking for small wins versus big wins. You have to kind of figure out where that is and where. I mean, it all comes back to that point in the beginning of where that where's your why? What is it that you need to do and what's getting in the way? If a few things, you know, hey, this is kind of a nuisance, but it's not that big. It's not insurmountable. Maybe maybe wait on that kind of a tech implementation till later. But man, if I need like I just think of we call them the painkiller projects, it's the things that the tedious jobs that take days of work or hours of work every month that we don't need to be doing. That kind of stuff is what needs to change, but it takes learning it and that's intimidating. But it's like that appointment to the eye doctor, you will see better. No, I have to say like with that analogy, it's not as easy as like walking out with a pair of glasses. Like we said, some of it takes some more time. So having somebody guide you through it is really helpful. So let me ask you this question because I know why PTC works with a wide assortment of people. You have a wide assortment of interests within the nonprofit sector working hard on their missions. No two clients are like I'm sure. Do you, how do you mitigate organizations that might have kind of like a wackadoo system that maybe they've created or something off the shelf that's like lower end? I hate to use that phrase again, but not like one of the premium software platforms that everybody's trained up on. That's got to cost more money in the long run, everybody. When you have something that isn't readily understood maybe is the way to, how do you deal with that? Well, we try to do a little bit of cost analysis as best as you can and value time. Like we've got a process right now. One of the tasks that we've been thinking about doing is we've got a lot of nonprofits that are on QuickBooks, for instance, but also we've got a lot of large organizations that go to things like Sage Intact or NetSuite or MIP and those softwares are significantly more in cost but you need to weigh out what does each tool do? And there might be some benefits to a smaller one but then you might get to a complexity level that you need a different one. So it's really looking at what time does it take for you to even use this system? Are you out, outgrowing it or changing it? It involves all sorts of questions underneath around what you need the tool to do. So I mean, it's first again, getting back to that mission. What do you need this tool to help you with to help answer when it's time to change? And then yes, there's all sorts of like decision trees around do you update the system that you have or do you overhaul it? And those paths have very different choices and different questions that an expert who's good at system design can really help you walk your organization through but it's not an easy process and it's really specific to each organization, right? What I'd say is like some of the smaller tech you lose out on some of the benefits of tech that talks to other tech. I think that's one that I'm always looking for is does this play nicely with other tools because there's a system it's called APIs and it's where it shares information between the tools and they talk to each other and save you time. That's one of the big ways that tech is changing right now. So I'm always looking for tools that have software that has APIs in it or ways that it can work with other tools. You know, you started us off with a great framework today with the why. And I almost want to circle back to that because how often should we be doing the why? It's not a one and done. I mean, like, because I know with like our strategic planning it's a given, we do it every year and we do a one, three or five or one, two and three or, you know, it's something that we're engaging with but what does this look like to you? I mean, how often should we be doing it given that, you know, AI is structurally changing every 24 hours? Yeah. Well, you just brought up a good point which is that tech is constantly changing. If I had been on this show, actually, not last March but last November of 2022, AI had just come out. I didn't even know what it was able to do as far as chat and GPT. I was learning along with a lot of people. So like the conversations we have keep changing. That's where like having resources that are up to date on like, here's what it can do and having that technical mindset we have to start moving the needle. Leaders of organizations need to be thinking about having a technology education, how it works how the systems work together, what AI can do how the models work, how information's changing and it affects our mission. I said this in the last time that I was on the show that if we don't stay up to speed we will miss out on opportunities. That's a hard truth of it. And also, if you don't stay up to speed you might implement something and be missing all sorts of ethical considerations that you need to do. AI is loaded with challenges as much as it's loaded with opportunity. And so knowing how to use it responsibly protecting your data for your organization and the constituents, that all takes skill and understanding. So back to your why, I think all the time at our organization we're always thinking about our why and our strategic goals. Every single one of our department knows what our goals are at our company. And so if we're thinking of that and that's a front of our mind and we're thinking also technologically we can think of how that can keep completing that mission but I think it takes open doors it takes the leaders who are welcoming that change who are creating some space for that change it takes time, it takes resources but think about like we spend time on capital campaigns think of how much money we raise to build buildings to build things, why are we not thinking about that kind of fundraising with our donors to say this is gonna help us do this mission it's gonna help us think of if we could start framing things better that way what that could change, then you have the resource I feel like so often it's the afterthought and then we don't have the resources to do it. We have a viewer who's actually been a guest on the show a couple of times and she writes in process and people before product amen on the integration point. So thank you for writing that or yeah pulling that comment into the show because it is a great way to frame this up and Alicia I think what you said that's so interesting to me too is that it's a continual journey. It's not just a we're gonna, you said a capital campaign gonna build that building and things gonna be fixed. Yeah and having people like I think of the guides like a good consultant or a good guide for any sort of big plan like this even like think about if somebody was gonna help you design the building it should be around your mission it should so the same with your tech like you can't walk into these meetings and say I need a new budgeting software well why do we need this software? Why do you need this one? Is this the right one? Are you sure we need to migrate to this new accounting system? Are you sure you can't do it already in this one? What is it that you're trying to accomplish? Actually, you think you can do it over here it's better over here. A good consultant is gonna walk you through those questions and help you think through how it informs what you're trying to accomplish. I mean it affects everybody too it's what outputs you need from the tools. That's a big question that we ask so. You know it's really been an amazing conversation today with you Alicia and I think it's really incumbent upon us to reframe how we're thinking about this because obviously it's not going away I mean this is what we have to be doing I loved your comment and I think Meredith you echoed that it's like there are new ways to be doing things and if you don't get on board with that you're gonna be behind. And I think in terms of the competitive set there will be other nonprofits can do it better. Yeah, yeah, always, right? I mean always. So the more you can stay competitive in your area I mean I say that to nonprofits all the time as a consultant they come in and about their mission and to your point Alicia on the why? I mean you're probably not the only one that's addressing I mean that particular organization is not the only one addressing that mission area so what makes you unique or how are you tackling this in a newer different way? And so I love the idea of bringing tech in and you said earlier, you know monitoring it and continually evaluating is it the right kind of tech? Is it serving the purposes we need? Yeah, you remind me I'm thinking of an organization that we helped they wanted to start visualizing their impact. So they came to us we built a dashboard for them and it turned into like this really interactive quality visuals that they could put on their website that showed not just their financial information but like how they were impacting different things in the community. And when we interviewed them later they get people reach out to them because they use this technology they were clearly communicating the impact that they had in this community and it led to more funding it led to more support because people could see they were doing what they said they were gonna do. I mean think I could give you 50 examples of how that imagine if you can more efficiently and give quality reports to your funders on what your impact is on how you're spending things that has to I mean I'm really well versed on the accounting side but you can incorporate that with all sorts of other technology but imagine if you had an efficient and quality way to tell that story to a funder how much more likely it would be for the next funder to say I believe in this I can see that you're doing what you say you're gonna do. Yep I'd like to support you more. I love it it's impact all the way and you know it's amazing. I love the impact that you bring to us YPTC. I always tease you all off camera but I'm gonna tease you on camera because I'm always like oh accountants how are you gonna make a good show you know but you guys are always amazing you're so inspirational. I feel like you're realistic but you're inspirational at the same time and you kind of as we titled the show stop pulling your hair out. You help us navigate these things and if we don't have this type of talent in our boat we're gonna sink right. So Alicia Eastfold manager at your part-time controller I'm gonna call you the accounting sommelier. Ooh I like that. I really like that I think that's like you painted that picture man I was right in there. I was just I saw what you were saying and yeah it's a cool way to think about this. Check out YPTC.com the organization has so many resources are free don't have to be one of their clients. They have amazing amazing streams of information and knowledge with their vast leadership and amazing thought leaders. And so check out again YPTC.com. Quick story your original founder he was really one of the very first people that came to me and said how do I get my and I'll never forget. He's like how do I get my logo right there? And I was like what you know so Eric Frank dear to my heart Jennifer Aliva now your new CEO which is very very exciting but your part-time controller. Thank you ever so much. You know we wanna also make sure that we express our gratitude to all of our other partners that have joined Merritt and I today and they include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Nonprofit Thought Leaders, Staffing Boutique your part-time controller, 180 Management Group fundraising Academy at National University JMT Consulting, Nonprofit Nerd and Nonprofit Tech Talk. These folks join us day in and day out and really give us some exciting ideas as to how we can build our sector and it's an exciting time to be a part of this sector. So ladies thank you so much. Thank you. I'm really energized and not so afraid to make some tech changes in my own business. Thanks, thanks. Well we're here to help if anybody wants that and you can find your way on your own too but if you need support we're here to help. I love it. So thank you. I love it ladies. Well as we end every episode of the Nonprofit Show we want to leave you with this message and that is to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Thank you so much ladies.