 This show is Politics for the People, and I'm your host, Stephanie Stoll Dalton. We are gonna be discussing a topic about the campaign today, given the waning interest of the GOP in the Big Lie Single Issue campaign talk, and on the other hand, increasing democratic energy given the likelihood of an indictment by the DOJ of our former president for obstruction of justice. So we have a panel of participants to discuss this issue and those associated with it, and they are Jay Fidel and also Tim Appatella. So welcome panel. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you, thank you. All right, so we are gonna begin right away with Jay talking to us about the construction that works right now or has been working so far, which is of course that the ex-president is the leader of the GOP. Now, the reputed leader of the GOP according to the reports in the news. Now, is this strengthening or are the GOP voters thinking to move on? And would this be about threatening his stardom or Trump stardom as the leader and potential nominee for the 2024 presidential nomination of the Republican Party? Search me. I haven't really seen anything that suggests that the GOP base is disintegrating under Trump and they don't believe him anymore. They shouldn't believe him, okay? It's logical, it's not inductive, it's a logical thing where you say, well, if I were a GOP member of the base and I watched this stuff happening, I couldn't possibly believe it. And he has to be declining from where I am from if I make myself into a member of the base. But I don't know if there's been anything material in the press, maybe you guys know more to suggest that his base is leaving him. Logically, he's in more trouble, domestically. And logically, he's made some stupid remarks about Vladimir Putin in Russia. And I call him Putin now, by the way. That's not an era, that's what I call him. I did see that. Yeah, I noticed that. So I mean, it's only logical but it's not based on any evidence that I know. And so that's my answer to your question. I'm not sure that you can make an assumption on either end of that. What you can do is say that if you were a member of the base, you would not be impressed. Well, I was quoting the latest report that I've had on that topic, which is his leadership in the party is substantial. But George, the husband of Kelly Ann, his high level advisor in the White House, Trump's high level advisor in the White House, her husband maintains that the GOP is moving on, wants to move on, and that this single issue topic for the campaign is weakening and over. In my next life, I would like to be the marriage counselor between George and Kelly Ann. They have some real issues there. It's not a statement of a great marriage. I can't imagine what their pillow talk is like. In any event, let me say that I don't believe Kelly Ann and I don't believe George either. So it's not really much authority for either one of them to say anything. Would you agree with the other side of the topic, which is the interest and the increased energy of the Dems, the Democrats, in thinking that the Department of Justice may be moving forward, given that recent federal judges ruling on the culpability and potential felony accusation or indictment of the former president. Well, through the magic of Zoom, I can see Tim shaking his head, no. And I shake my head, no, too. In fact, it works exactly the other way around. So this judge who is getting, you know, evidence and pleadings from the Department of Justice, some lawyer in the Department of Justice is saying, gee, that's enough for me to conclude that Trump has violated the law and is a felon because of what happened on January 6th or around January 6th. But, you know, if it comes from the Department of Justice, don't you think that the Department of Justice should be doing something? In January this year, Merrick Garland made, I guess it was in the proceedings remembering a year ago, you know? Merrick Garland made a remark that he was investigating and he would investigate it wherever the evidence took him, end quote. But you know what? I wasn't convinced of that. I thought he was saying that because somebody was pressuring him to say something because he has said nothing for the past year. And I would conclude just as an ordinary citizen that he has done nothing for the past year, nothing. I think he's AWOL. He's AWOL on the big guys and the little fish too. He hasn't really been doing his job on the January 6th insurrection. And it's really too bad because the public needs to hear from him. Democracy needs to hear from him. We have to believe in our government. And with that, with that Attorney General, it's really hard to believe in your government. So the New York Times reports the 34-page decision by that judge a few days ago. And so the judge finds that it's very likely that Trump violated the law and is a felon, very likely, okay. So a couple of days later, maybe one day later, America Arling gets up and says, no, no, we really are doing something. And I'm saying, what do you've said that if the New York Times had not had that article? Interesting how the media is doing more investigation than he is. And the media is like motivating him to respond to statements of investigation of what the media has found in its investigation. I think it's a sad sack situation. And I think that there's no excuse for Merrick Garland to be behind the curve this way. There's no excuse for him to be silent. It is shades of Robert Mueller. Was it sort of magic, Emperor wearing no clothes. We're all supposed to believe that something's happening, but there's no evidence that anything's happening. So, frankly, I am not convinced that either A, Robert Mueller's doing anything or B, this new energy in the Democratic Party. I think right-thinking members of the Democratic Party are gonna wonder all the more, what is going on here? How come we can't investigate an obvious if a coup in our country? Thank you. Tim, let me come to you for some follow-up that might help us here, understand better what's going on. Not that anybody really knows, but we can speculate. We hear a think-tack, we know. Oh, and we do know a lot, we do. With Jay's comment about no excuse, of course, but would you take us back to Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump and the Department of Justice's approach to their investigations at that time? If you recall, there was quite a hullabaloo about why Hillary's investigation was announced and then the Donald Trump investigation was never announced and she blames that for or believes that that may have been the basis of her loss. Of course, that's- Oh, it certainly was the final dagger in the back. Sure, it was, no two ways about it. So what does that tell us about the policy of the DOJ? So can you talk- Jay's right, it comes down to an individual. We've got milk toast in the seat of the Attorney General's office. United States Attorney General's office, he's milk toast. And I don't know if he's waiting for the select committee's report and have them do all his work for him. I don't know if it's a matter of complacency, being lazy, or just not knowing what his job is, but Jay's right. It's, he was prompted to say something only after the publication came out. And so what's holding them back? Is he waiting for headlines? I don't know. I did hear yesterday that they're expanding, they're scope of investigation. I understand that they don't want to talk about their investigation, but give us some highlights. Let the president at least know what's going on. Maybe the American public doesn't deserve to know the details, but it's ridiculous. And you're right. I mean, Hillary Clinton basically was, the last dagger was the announcement by James Comey. And that was it. That casted a doubt on people. And they said, oh, can't vote for her. All right. Let's talk about Joe Biden, though. In the case of Trump, Trump was telling Bill Barr what to do, right? He was telling him, he was telling him how to put his trousers on. But that was wrong, Jay. It was wrong. It was wrong, it was wrong, okay? Well, that was absolutely against the power. And Bill Barr was listening to Trump and doing everything Trump told him to do. He saw himself as representing Trump, as a counsel for Trump, not the country. That is hideous, and it's very destructive for our democracy. It is a completely wrong way to correct it. It amazes me how these guys who went to law school and presumably understand the way the country works don't. They don't understand the way the country works. And Bill Barr did. We can never, ever forgive him for the things he did, never. Now, I think Bill, rather than Joe Biden, is taking a page at the reverse page out of that book and saying, well, I'm not gonna tell the AG what to do. I'm not gonna muscle the Department of Justice the way Trump did, but he's carrying it too far. But first of all, he appointed a milk toast attorney general. Merrick Garland might have been a good judge. Maybe I really haven't followed him. Everybody thought he was a great guy when his nomination came up. But that's the way everybody run to the left side of the boat, run to the right side of the boat. They thought that Amy Barrett was a good possibility too. The problem is that we have an attorney general who's not doing anything. And Joe Biden is not saying boo about it. Now, if I were Joe Biden, nor better yet, Stephanie, I think we need a woman president. If you were Joe Biden, you would get on the phone and you would say, hey, come on, Merrick. You know, we want something from you, Merrick. What's wrong with you? Well, the call would have been made long ago, but I understood, I'm glad we're kind of revealing what's going on with these people in charge making decisions about how to implement the DOJ policy. Because my understanding was that those investigations were undercover until they're ready to charge. So that's why it was so amazing. They had the impetus to close and we all sit around for years while the country is deteriorating and waiting for these guys. And when they finally come back, it's a nothing burger. It's a nothing burger. Well, all right, I thank you for that clarification and that may be the case. And I do think we need to keep in mind that Obama had to select someone like Merrick Garland to counter some of what he was trying to move through with the opposition to his nomination. Just like Lindsey Graham is making the point about this current nominee that she was not the best choice or a better choice. Well, it's not a choice. It's completely different though. This is an outstanding nominee. But I think Joe Biden is chicken about this. I think he probably nominated the wrong person for the AG's job, who did not have experience as a prosecutor, for example. And then now, for the past 16 months, he hasn't really done anything to motivate him. All of this sort of sanctimonious thing about, oh, I'm not gonna tell him what to do. Just tell him to speak. Just tell him to give us some confidence. And if you don't want to tell him, then you do it. But the public is thinking, this guy is AWOL. Well, you know, let's move over to Tim. I'd like to add onto that. Not only is he AWOL, but it tells the American public that maybe you can commit crimes against our democracy and maybe get away with it. You bet. And that's worse. The rule of law is not applying to- Well, he's got to, what is the primary duty of the Department of Justice? It's justice. Well, the primary duty is to protect the democracy. William Barr never did that one day in office. And frankly, the guy before him, who was appointed by Trump, never did it either. Jeff Sessions. But the reality is that Merrick Garland's not doing it either. We have a crisis in our democracy and he doesn't see it as a crisis. No. If the three of us were involved, we would be moving- We could take care of business. The other thing is the FBI has a lot of power to gain information. Maybe as much or more than a select committee does. The select committee is all stuck in bureaucracy. They have to go through all this process. The FBI doesn't. And so you'd think the FBI would be way ahead of the select committee. They could have started earlier. How could they do that? Who would unleash the FBI to take a look at this? The Attorney General, I mean- He could call them on. Okay. Absolutely, totally. Well, he could at least do that if he wants to save himself the energy. The problem is that Biden can't get rid of them. If you or I or Tim or Attorney, rather President, we'd have to entertain the thought that this isn't working really well. And if you have to evaluate how we're doing in responding to the insurrection, the weak link here is Merrick Garland. I'll go on record. And so what do you do about that? Well, one option which is not very appealing is to get rid of them. Say, look, I'd like you to resign. You're not doing anything. Well, don't you think that this might be- The problem is that if he resigns, then Joe Biden has to find someone else. And let me tell you what will happen in the Senate over confirming the someone else. It will be something to watch. It'll make Katanya look easy. Of course, of course. So anyway, that's fine. Yeah, let's move on to another aspect of all of this, Tim. It appears that Pence has a new agenda as he attempts to rehabilitate himself. Do you think that he has the traction or the grit or the capacity to proceed from his psychofency under Trump and his cooperation with him on everything to becoming more outspoken about what he did and what he thinks his accomplishments were and also to become a policymaker, such as he's saying he wants the military to be stronger and to be more powerful. What do you think is going on? Two points. Two points. One is a little too little too late. He had a chance to be a vice president and speak up for democracy while he was vice president. I'm glad he didn't, you know, he followed through with the vote for a electoral college confirmation. He did something right. But no, he's been a total bootlicking lackey for Donald Trump since day one. So, and then second part is he's got the charisma of Merrick Garland, Milk Toast Squared. So, you know, if he has dreams about being a nominee for the United States, first he should begin with Trump to see Donald Trump allow him to even put his name on the ballot, but he won't be allowed. You know, that's, you know, that's Mike Pence. I, you know, to go to the title of the show, I think Donald Trump is losing traction, mainly because the American public in the last 20, 25 years, the attention span of the average American has shortened. We don't have the attention span anymore because our technology is so much faster that we're required to spend our attention on multiple things than we were back in the 70s, 60s, and even part of the 80s. Now we just, you know, it's the next news cycle is probably about 12 hours, maybe 24 hours. And so I think Donald Trump has been out of office now for well over a year and the bromance, the love affair is waning. And also I think they're getting tired of a one trick pony. The election was stolen from me. The election was stolen from me. And then secondly to that is the snuggling up to Putin. If Putin doesn't look like a very nice guy and he looks like a war criminal, support for Putin kind of looks like you're un-American. And I don't think anyone likes that label. And I think that when you say I'm for Trump, it's almost saying I'm not really American, I'm un-American. He's tried to compromise a free and fair election, tried to bury our democracy. And now he's following in the footsteps of a comrade Putin. And those are two things that most Americans, especially from the Midwest, don't kind of want to side with. So I think his numbers will slip even more. You got any evidence on that? Jay, Jay, yeah. What evidence? The, well, I want it. It's what I said before. Okay, logically, if you make yourself a member of the base, you come to those conclusions. The passage of time that he's not on Twitter or all that, and the stupid remarks he's made about Putin. But is there any evidence that the base is shrinking? Is there any evidence? You see articles? Do you see people speaking out on the subject? I don't. Well, yes, there is some evidence. And that's one of the reasons I brought up the topic is because that he's slipping considerably in the states where he has recommended, where Trump, the ex-president has sided with, supported, approved, promoted the candidates for governor and for secretary of state. So they're not busting through. They're actually falling behind. And also the interest in these topics is also waning and the polls show lower counts for these Trump topics and for Trump candidates. So there's some. And I have some qualitative evidence and that's just the people I talked to, they're steadfast Trump supporters. They're now saying, and I quote, let's put Trump aside for this conversation. Because one, they don't want to be labeled as un-American. And two, they're kind of tired of hearing about the one-trick pony topic, which is the election was stolen. They're sick of it. Is there any confidence about the election this fall? Does it give you confidence about the election in 2024? It gives me confidence that the Democrats, if they really apply themselves, and quit tripping over their own feet, can actually be a competitor in this 2022 election. Yeah, but Democrats don't know how to win. The exactly. And Jay, back to you on where we go about this bromance with Putin that our ex-president has. It appears also that Pence is interested in returning the GOP to the more traditional anti-Russian stance. So there has been some write-ups about and reports about this is what his goal is. So I mean, you've already put down his intention to get out from under his second fancy and affiliation totally with Donald Trump, but he seems to be moving to do that. And also to bring the party. He's got major huge goals in his rehabilitation plan, according to the articles that I've been reading. So do you see that he's got a winner? If Pence has a winner with some of the public on trying to move towards a traditional stance vis-a-vis Russia? No, Pence is a non-person. He's not a player. He's not on the stage. He said, what's the word? He said, no consequence right now. He never had much consequences, as Tim said, and he certainly didn't get any consequence by entertaining the possibility of participating in the coup. He made this choice after talking to all these people. It was not interconnected. It was not because he had any great sense of democracy. It was because they appealed him on some political basis. But the fact is, he's weak. He doesn't have a moral compass. He hung around with Trump and was the second fan for Trump for four years. And he is of no consequence now. He will be of no consequence in the election this fall or in 2024. His political career is over. So he cannot convert. Tim, that is, I think what we've been heading towards hearing in the discussion that he isn't gonna resurrect himself at all, even in the Midwest, where he was a state governor. I agree. Okay, good. Well, let me ask you this question. What will be this country's stance in the world if the US DOG does not or whoever can charge him? What if we do not charge Trump? And what if we do not prosecute him? Where will the US do? Well, I could see some possible outcomes. They're not as optimistic as an indictment. But regardless, you're gonna see some candidate. And I don't know who it is. But as we get closer to 2024, you're gonna see some candidate take that report from the January 6th select committee, take that report and say, here's my brief. I'm to impose the 14th Amendment paragraph three that Donald Trump is not qualified to run for President of the United States. And here's my proof. Read it, enjoy it, because it's all laid out for me by the select committee. I think that'll be a possible outcome if the DOJ does nothing. I also think that you'll see the dribble and drab of reports once the DOJ does come up with something, you'll get that and people will start to say, gosh, I guess he really did try a coup d'etat against the democracy of the United States. And there'll be those independents, there'll be those old fashioned Republicans that kind of nod their head about Trump, but then secretly they were nodding their head, no. You'll see them to actually be a little more bold and a little more strident about their opposition to Donald Trump as the party nominee. And Donald Trump may not be the party nominee. It depends on the timing. Again, if the select committee drags his feet and goes much beyond May, this is gonna get lost in the summer months. And as we said yesterday in the program, I think Cynthia said it, it's too close to the election. We can't talk about it. It's not fair for the voters. So this thing has to be done now and as soon as possible. And then the DOJ, I agree with Jay is that, Merrick Garland, if you have something up your sleeve, let's see it because times are wasting and it's almost May. Thank you. That times of wasting is certainly related to the next question Jay, for you, if the Democrats lose, not only are we out of time almost in this congressional section, but what about if the Democrats lose? Where's all of this work going Jay? Yeah, so bottom line, I think we can all agree that the Republicans have been busy, busy bees while we're fooling in Afghanistan and while we're fooling in Ukraine and all these other issues come up, including COVID. They've been busy, busy bees, even after Trump left office. And they've been working together for this most outrageous array of anti-democratic bills in so many states, in battleground states. So I'm not optimistic at all about how this election is going to go. You can say that although it really is too late for Merrick Garland to get an indictment, to take that to court, get a jury impaneled, have a trial, prosecute Trump, that's not going to happen between now and October. Not going to happen, I'm promising you. And then of course, Trump is going to appeal everything. So it's not going to be settled. So if you're relying on either the select committee or worse, Merrick Garland, to have a clear-cut result demonstrating that from a legal point of view, Trump is a felon, you're not going to get it before the election. On the other hand, our democracy has changed. There's nothing so constant has changed. And the fact is there's a whole new generation of kids that have come up in the past five, five and a half years now. They are not the same as the ones who elected Trump in the first place. They are not the same as the ones who supported him and let him do his mischievous, for a good part of his term. Let him get away with all that stuff. This is a new generation that may hold him to account, but it's holding him to account in the court of public opinion. Cause that's all we got left of our democracy right now. We don't have the rule of law. We don't have a Supreme court that's going to enforce the rule, I'm sorry to tell you. So this is not a good recipe going forward. And I call it the the Keynesian question. What happens in the world of Christmas future? What happens on the bad side of things if you make all the bad assumptions, which I think in large part we can make. So let's assume that Democrats lose cause they can't get it together. Republicans are working like busy bees to command that election, both of those elections. So A, we're going to have a lot of Republicans running the country and the state legislators. Congress is going to change its complexion. It's going to be to the right. And it's going to be a sad story cause they're not going to adopt legislation that is consistent with the interests of the country. And they're going to hamper the president, whoever it is, even assuming the president is a Democrat. And the result will be that our Democrat government will be an even greater jeopardy because of that. Trump has set things in motion for a sort of a slow moving coup and that's not going away anytime soon. I am not optimistic. Well, let's have a last round here as we're out of time. And so Tim, perhaps you're interested in responding to Jay's points. Are we at that point on the con? Well, I would like to respond cause since Jay resurrected the spirit of Christmas future, I'm reminded what Ebenezer Scrooge said to the ghost of Christmas future. And that was, are these the things that may be or will be? And if the Democrats get their collective act together, we could say maybe. And second point is I'd like to think that Donald Trump has lost his luster. No one wants to be labeled as an anti-American. And after January 6th, if you're with Trump you are not only anti-American because he tried to overthrow our election and our democratic process, but now he is in the camp of Putin. Those are two big strikes. No American wants to be labeled as someone who's in lockstep with Putin. And you can't extract Trump away from that. As much as some of the die-hard Trump followers will try to do, the foil is for Democrats to say, well, you are judged by those company you keep. And if Donald Trump's your guy, then you're one of them too. And I guarantee you, like a cockroach, they'll scatter. They won't like that. Yeah, thank you. Jay, to finish off- Was that definitive? I'm not sure. I think you got there. I have the milk toast about my statements. Yeah, right. I was gonna ask Jay to say whether he believed that people could be, it's almost unimaginable that there could be a majority of anti-Trump. Jay, do you see it going that way, as Tim suggests, that he will be seeing- I didn't say majority. Let's make that clear. Well, I mean, that's the only way it's gonna make any difference. Well, no, you're assuming we're gonna have free and fair elections. Don't assume that. We have all these people who are trying to make it just the other way around here, electing secretaries of state who are instruments of the GOP and just like Trump wanted. So, I mean, I think our democracy, and our democracy is expressed most clearly at election time, I was in great, great jeopardy. The other thing I wanna add is this. I sent you guys, or did I? Actually, I posted in our newsletter today about an article about this guy, I'm gonna say Richard Koch runs Koch Industries. And one of his is a very, very rich man and has given money to the GOP and to Trump for years. And he's really part of the group that has built the GOP into this right-wing organization, which is what it is today. And one of the things that he runs is a greeting card company. And so they're greeting cards you can buy from his company. And one of them is a greeting card to Vladimir Putin. And it's entitled something like, stand in there, stay in there, man. Keep going, Vladimir. What? This is a very significant political guy who has enormous amounts of money, who we buy consumer goods from every day. And he is sending greeting cards to the base to stroke Putin and say, stand in there, man, we're with you, we're with you. Okay, so what I'm getting at is there's a lot of people in this country who are suggestible and a lot of people in the world who are suggestible. Look at India. India has got its policy of non-alignment. And it doesn't wanna vote against Russia and anywhere in the United Nations. Half of Africa is like that. A lot of South America is like that. And they know the atrocities that are going on, but they still support Putin. So what I'm, I just wanna point out as the last point here in our round Robin is that it's not a matter of whether you support Putin or you don't support Putin for a lot of people in this country. And the GOP I think is tending, and this is again, it's logical but not inductive. The GOP is tending in this direction and that Trump and this guy Coke would send us in. So Putin ain't that bad. He has reasons for doing what he's doing. And maybe it's okay. And maybe we can forgive him the atrocities. In other words, it's not black or white. It's like the way you were talking to him about how, Trump ain't that bad. Let's move on. Let's find someone else who can come down with some sort of middle ground gray area where we don't have to send him to jail and try him as a war criminal. We have to understand him and give him some room. And I think that's what may happen with these Republicans who are soft on Putin. They somehow forgive him. Thank you, Jay. I'm sorry, we're out of time. So it looks like we could do a little more here on this. Maybe we'll return to it. But thank you for the participation and the insightful comments from both of you. And we will see you next week on this show. The politics for the people. And I'm your host, Stephanie Stoll Dalton, and appreciate your attention and viewing Aloha, everybody.