 your host. Today we are going to discuss and dissect the agricultural sector. Though we don't have enough time, but we'll try our best to dissect it and to give you some inside information, achievements and of course some challenges the ministry do have. With me is Mr. Kemuel Jabatis who is the former chief extension officer and now the acting deputy director of agricultural services. Welcome to the program Mr. Kemuel. Thank you Sid and as always I'm always happy to be here to be sharing information with St. Lucien on what's happening in the sector and hoping that we could provide some updated information to our wider community and stakeholders. Definitely because where we are today Kemuel, we need to prepare a program to ensure that we feed ourselves. Absolutely. Our food and nutrition security is key. More so at this time of our lives in Zennosa and of course the minister's mantra in the ministry is to try to enhance our food and security. Okay moving forward but let's go back a bit and you have been the chief extension officer for a while. What can you tell us about the achievements of the extension division? Well I'm happy that I've been there for the last few years and the extension advisory services is indeed a pressure pot of the ministry of agriculture. We are often described as the face of the ministry but from a managerial standpoint it's really a pressure pot meaning that we have to interact with the public and I'm talking about Joe public and all stakeholders talking about producers, agro processors, exporters and each one of those players, each one of those stakeholders have expectations in terms of what the advisory services is supposed to provide. So over the years we've been successful in doing a lot of capacity building through farm or field school. The farm or field school methodology has proven to be a winner for us. So we spent a lot of time starting from around 2009, 2010 doing a lot of farm or field school work, building capacity. The focus areas would have been in person disease management, integrated person disease management and so on. The school feeding program is another place. We have some persons who have provided some really good support. Green housing as well. The green housing coming through the youth agro entrepreneurial project as well as the Taiwanese supported project way back then. We've seen some strides in that area. We also seen some regression in terms of greenhouses because of cost of maintaining them. They're so susceptible to the storms and so on. So extension has been essentially looking at this particular area. We've been supporting a lot of projects. We've been supporting the south east coast project. We've been supporting the seven crops projects. In fact we've been implementing that project more or less. We've been supporting the other agencies, ensuring that the farmers are getting the sort of support that they need. And essentially that's the story that we have to tell the Morocco soil fertility project. A lot of the farmers will have been beneficiaries to supply of fertilizers out of Morocco. I think we just finished some disbursement maybe about three or four weeks ago. I would have distributed about maybe 3,900 bags or so. And so these projects extension has been in the forefront of interacting with the farmers. But also in the background of that as well, in terms of program preparation, we normally have these community meetings, community interactions. And extension would have supported minister in his first year or so meeting different groups at the community level. So these are some of the areas that we've been focusing on. And yes, as agriculture emerges locally, we are seeing that there's even greater need for preparing the officers to make them cutting edge to respond to the emerging challenges that we are going to be facing. What are the major challenges you think that the farmers are facing out there? Currently, I like to look at agriculture from an economic standpoint. And usually I like to make reference to the factors of production. You're talking about land labor, capital markets and so on. And at each one of these levels, there are challenges. When it comes to the issue of land, you have limited land space. But not only limited land space, you have issues of entitlements. And when you're not sure your entitlement to the land, you treat it in a different way. Persons who do not own the land are not necessarily going to protect it or preserve it. They're going to utilize it anyhow. But even worse than that, those persons who do not have the entitlement to the land cannot utilize it to gain access to credit and so on. And then we're also seeing a lot of shifts of agricultural lands out of the sector. We're seeing pasture lands going into all kinds of investments. And we're not anti-development, but when you take prime lands and you put it into all the uses, the question is how do you plan on intensifying production to satisfy your food needs? Then you look at the issue of labor. It's interesting that I'm driving along the highway this morning and there are hundreds of people cutting grass along the road and clearing the roads. And that's really important. But even more important would be that same set of labor if they were able to get onto the farms. There are a lot of farms that if you go to the farmers now, they tell you labor is a problem, but not just the availability of it, the productivity of it. The people come to work and once a full day pay for five hours, for four hours. And so this is another challenge. And the quality of labor, people may not even be aware that farmers constantly have to train the labor that comes in, train them how to fertilize, train them how to apply pesticides, train them how to do a whole number of things. And so you have this constant training taking place where the labor is concerned. And we spoke about capital already. The challenge with capital is accessing it. And we are aware of what the challenges are, but it's not a walk through the park to correct it. The issue of what do people have as collateral in order to access credit lines and so on. Excuse me for just a minute. And then you have the issue of markets. We see what has happened with the bananas, for example. Bananas had its own safe haven. We lost that. And then from the safe haven days of the late 80s, early 90s, we've seen mayhem. The markets have been an absolute mess to the point that there is a loss of confidence. And that loss of confidence is not only in bananas. It's in the number of other areas because persons are trading cautiously in terms of what it is that they are producing and so on. So you have land, labor capital, you have markets, and then you have the issue of partnerships as well. Agriculture cannot operate in a silo. We have partnerships with private sector. We have the exporters. We have the agro processors. They rely on the primary producers to provide the raw materials that they require. And then you have challenges with that. You have challenges of the weather and climate impacting on the availability of supplies. Now you have the agro processor investing in a number of plant and equipment facilities, and then the supplies that are required become a challenge. And so we now, as agriculture, need to be able to bring all these persons together and continue the process of navigating through these emerging issues. We know that they're there, but as time elapses, it comes in a different form. Yeah. When you look at our full import bill, because everything that is strategized now, we had a youth entrepreneurship program. Again, that was a very thoughtful program to bring in young people into agriculture because of the aging population of our farmers. Yeah. Very good program. But in terms of the implementation, was it a success really? The youth agriculture project was founded on a premise of what Morocco did with the Green Morocco plan. So if you go to the Kingdom of Morocco and they've been a partner with us in agricultural development, the Green Morocco plan was built on two pillars. One, a set of people who have the capital that government would give access to additional resources. So they would invest, they invest in plant equipment or production facilities, and then government would provide a grant of up to about 80% I think of that initial cost. The second pathway that they were using was one where the infrastructure that would be road infrastructure, production infrastructure would be established, and then persons would come on board and pay overtime. We used the second approach, a second pillar, where we looked at setting up and this particular project looked both at crop and livestock. So you had the livestock pen set up, the spoil tree swine, small ruminants, you had the greenhouses, and also you had the open field spaces. And these were allotted to various young persons. I must say at this point in time that our Saint Lucia people need to ensure that we understand that when these valuable investments are made, that somebody else could have been there. So what we had was persons who were coming in, were not necessarily adequately prepared for what they were getting into. They did not understand it, they did not understand the cost associated with it, and so essentially they did not, a lot of them have not done well. We have some good successes. We have some persons producing eggs. There's a young chap down at River Durie, can't remember his name now, he has like two pens, but he's struggling with getting basic things like water. He's had to do rainwater harvesting. So essentially the investment was made, government made the investment. I think we aired on the side of participant selection, because we brought on some participants who had this entitlement mentality, like you owe me this, who did not necessarily understand what it was that they were getting into and didn't realize that even if we tried to make agriculture sexier, whatever phrases that people used, the hard backbreaking work is required. You have to get up on the morning, those animals need to be fed, these crops need to be irrigated and so on. And so in that area we perhaps faltered and selected some persons who just didn't really care so much, they got in there and they got lazy, and then we had a whole plethora of issues and so on. But I think the fact that we have the infrastructure remaining, we need to go back in there, engage the operators and see how we could best restore that particular project. Yeah, because if we look at it, especially young farmers who are involved in, well, shed production of vegetables, a lot of the structure, I mean, a great percentage is underutilized and it's uncovered. And if you go back, especially now with the uncertainty of the weather, you have a lot of rain, right? You know right now, our food and well-being has skyrocketing because our tomatoes, our sweet pepper and our lettuce, you know, you cannot get this as we speak. But then if we had our shed houses in operation, most likely it would have been a decredent. So speaking of food security and nutrition, let me just stick a pin there and say to all solutions, a major challenge of reducing our food security bill is our cultural eating patterns. We have shifted away from eating traditional foods that we cultivate to eating a lot of luxury food. So a lot of the stuff, just walk through the supermarket to walk through the freezer section, walk through the other grocery section, and you'll recognize that the local produce section is the smallest section within the supermarket. In addition to this, most of what we consume on a regular basis, we do not produce rice, we do not produce flour, we do not produce sugar or even white potatoes. So having said that, from my perspective, I have advocated it and I'm going to continue to advocate food security and nutrition for the Caribbean islands has to be approached on an original basis. We have the wider territories of Surinam, Guyana, Trinidad, Belize and so on. Let them be those territories that continue to support the majors, the rice, the flowers, the sugars and so on. But let not the governments forget that the Jack Dewey initiative was still sitting there where Guyana opened up itself to investors from the islands and we ought to take advantage of this if we are going to see any significant reduction in the food import supply. The other thing I've said on this program is the issue of livestock seed. I think we need to start knocking harder on the livestock door. Again, under the Caricom 25x25, Guyana is being considered for production of livestock feed, for example corn and soybean because one of the major challenges of the livestock sector, particularly swine and poultry, is that 75% to 80% of what we are feeding these animals are coming from foreign sources. So you're actually converting foreign grain. So if we could use the Caribbean territories, the wider territories to produce grain and the sort of feed that is required, we will be able to keep the resources within the Caricom territories and hopefully get a better product. So having said that, this is one of the areas, livestock seed is one of the areas that we must, must invest. On any meal that you go to, you go to a high-end restaurant, to a fine dining restaurant, the biggest cost of your meal is the meat. So it means that if we are able, we are doing well with poultry eggs, with eggs, we are pretty much self-sufficient. We need to find a way to enhance what we're doing with poultry meat, but not only poultry meat, but a lot of the cattle and the small ruminants, we need to see how we could get off the ground with this. We do have a facility at V4 that is intended to process meat, but it has its challenges. And as we speak, the ministry is currently looking at what are the options for reviewing, what we have, how can we retrofit it, how can we scale it down, or perhaps relocate it to ensure that we get utility out of the facility. As it stands, the facility is depreciating and we are not being able to utilize the space, but there are conversations as to how we could scale down and in order for us to effectively operationalize it and also utilize that excellent facility that has been provided. I think if we are able to do that, we will see significant reduction in terms of the cost of meats. Like I said, there's nothing we could do with the rice flour sugar and notice a whole set of stuff related to flour is there. Perhaps when we come back after we talk about the vegetable part of it, I'll share with you some bizarre stories about the vegetable part of things. Thank you. You're watching Agriculture to Move. Do you for a break? Back soon. The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries, Food Security and Rural Development is placing heavy emphasis on the concept of food security. It's our prosperity, our future. The Cocoa Sector Enhancement Project, CSEP, is targeting the rehabilitation of at least 201 acres of cocoa and the expansion of at least 294 acres. It protects against main diseases like black porn and witch's broom and pests like rodents. It secures the appropriate enabling environment to advance the sector. To learn more about the Cocoa Sector Enhancement Project, please contact Project Coordinator at 459-7003. Welcome back to the program, Agriculture and the Move. Of course, with me is Mr. Kamuel Chabatis, who is the Acting Deputy Director of the Agricultural Services in the Ministry of Agriculture. And of course, we're just speaking about the agricultural sector in general and focusing on areas, you know, and its impact on the agriculture industry in St. Kamuel, we still talked about the food import because I'm very worried about that because what are we importing? It means that we're consuming. Okay, and if we are consuming, then why can't we produce it? In terms of, so we talked about the livestock and we talked about some of the staples that have become weather staples on our plates that we do not necessarily produce. The other area of focus is producing these crops that we have the capacities to produce. So these will be the vegetables and there's a wide cross-section of vegetables that we actually produce in this country. The unfortunate thing about it is that even if we substituted 100% of vegetables and fruits in the in the forms that farmers are producing, meaning in the primary form, we would not see savings of more than 5% on the food import bill. However, that being said, it presents opportunities for livelihoods. So the people who are involved in producing these crops have the opportunity to have a solid livelihood and what that actually does is contribute to food security because we talk a lot about food security but as long as we have access to the food and that's what I'm saying, food security and nutrition, if approached on an original basis and the Carrickham brothers and sisters understand our plight, then they will provide access and as long as we could access those food resources, then essentially the region would be considered food secure. Just to give you some insight into our imports, just like tomatoes, the first quarter of this year, $115,000. Cabbage, $280,000. Sweet pepper, $245,000. And the lettuces combined, you're talking about almost $320,000. And that is why the Seven Crops was conceptualized. The minister back in 2016 that was there said, I want to do something different. What can we do differently? We looked at the import figures at the time and all these crops that were selected, we were importing over million dollars worth of clothes every year. So they were selected on the basis that one, we have the capacity to produce too. We were importing over million dollars. So if we were able to cut that by half or three-quarter or something, that would represent money livelihoods for the farmers as well as significant reductions. We have seen some strides where that is concerned. But again, there's a lot more that needs to be done. Markets have to be sorted out. I mean, we have not even spoken about soil relations. We have severe challenges with our soils that we have not spoken about. Plant nutrition, dealing with pest and disease and climate change impacts. These are affecting farmers. Last year, I messed up everything. The trough comes, it messes up farmers further. And so they're having difficulty recovering from that. Having said that, the ministry now needs to ensure that we have mechanisms in place and we've been talking about insurance products. As we speak, the ministry is engaging some of these insurers to see what options are there in terms of providing a risk protection against risk to small producers, fishers and farmers. Let's go back a bit. We had an agricultural policy in place in 2016-2021. Right now it is being reviewed. So we're looking at 2023-2013. Let's go back and look at the former. What were our achievements? That particular policy had, I think, if you remember well, there were some 11 broad areas that we focused on. The truth of the matter is we have not been able to put any one of those pillars aside and say that we've completed this one. So, for example, the issue of youth involvement and gender, we can't put that aside and say complete. The issue of food security and nutrition, we can't put it aside. These are all areas that we have focused on and over time the investments have been made. So we've been making investments in farm infrastructure. We've been making investments in a number of areas on farm roads and so on that is intended to enhance these 11 pillars. We have not done very well with those pillars. So I think at this point in time, we still have to ensure that we look at those pillars and see how we could perhaps reframe it in the new environment that we're looking at, recognizing that lands are shifting out of agriculture, recognizing that the markets are very volatile, recognizing that the issue of the weather patterns and climate impacts are right there. We have to now determine which one of those we could actually pursue in order for us to see some significant advancements in agriculture. As we speak from yesterday, there's an FAU funded project looking at the agricultural policy, rehashing it and to guide the way forward. There were a number of stakeholders at that meeting yesterday and it's continuing today as we speak and on tomorrow as well. Do you believe that we are doing the right thing in bringing all the stakeholders on board, all the players and actually bring them to the table and then to actually go through the whatever is brought to the table and see how well we can put that strategy together? Yes, so we must say of the bat thanks to our partners in the in the food and agriculture organization, particularly the sub-regional office in Barbados for supporting us on this. It is timely and as P.S. Sambarima would have said yesterday, this is not just about a revised a revised policy and strategy. This is this is thinking brand new. This is this is reassessing where we are shifting gears and perhaps bringing on something absolutely different to what we've traditionally done. So it is timely. It is timely in a number of cases. It is timely recognizing that the global environment in terms of trade has changed. It is timely recognizing that we no longer have a pristine banana industry that we could brag about. It is timely recognizing that we have a large number of unemployed people and hopefully agriculture will provide an opportunity for livelihoods for these persons. It is timely because there's a huge amount of pressure by all the sectors within the country that we do not shift those needed resources out of agriculture. It is timely because they are emerging technologies. Yesterday I heard persons talking about drone technology for spring. You have a whole set of other technologies in terms of land preparation. You have the aquaponics emerging and so on. And so I think it is timely for us to look at all of these emerging technologies and perhaps set a pathway for validating them where that is applicable and then from there get persons on board and see the private sector, when you see private sector, the farmers, the agro processors, the exporters, what is their own vision, what are they doing expectations so that we could bring those together and make it happen for agriculture. As we continue, I really want to bring to the fore the involvement of the Taiwanese technical mission in focus because I think they contributed tremendously to our sector. Absolutely. And we have a lot of thanks to them. We're talking about a facility, a mid-processing facility. We're talking about greenhouse investments. Among many other investments, we've invested extensively in aquaculture and banana industry. One of the things that I'm a strong proponent of, and I'm hoping I'm not set my boundaries, is that we need now to step back a little bit also and do a cost-benefit analysis of all these investments. We need to take some time to look at what are the investments that have been made in our agricultural sector, the cost associated with that, who have been the beneficiaries and how sustainable has that been? Among the many investments that we've made, who's continuing along that path? The greenhouses that we put up, are they still in operation? Are they still being utilized? The infrastructure that we set up, livestock infrastructure and other production facilities, who's utilizing it? Is it still producing a stream of benefits? One of the challenges that we've faced over the years is that we make these investments and then the sustenance of it or the maintenance of it falls right back on the public post. It's like we provide private sector with these expensive cars and when the tires are done they come back to you to get new tires. Meaning that you put up the agro processing facilities and it needs maintenance and we come right back to the public post and that is why the cost benefit is required to be done because you need to look at the economic benefits of these investments. Are they sustainable? If you invest in a poultry pen, for example, and you had to go to the bank and take a loan and produce it and all of that, is that sustainable? If you had to set up an agro processing facility, go to the bank, get money and pay for your everything, is that sustainable? If the answer is yes, then it is worth the government's time and effort to put monies and resources in there and subsidize it to give the operators a comparative advantage. But if from the word go, it is not sustainable, it is not cost effective, we probably should review what it is that we are investing in. Exactly, because you see a lot of these projects that are funded by outside agencies, it is for a period of time, three years, five years. And after that, what happens? I don't think there is what you call an exit report from a number of those projects to evaluate this and say, okay, what were the constraints, what are the benefits of the project? And so it ends and then there is no continuity. So if there is no continuity, it means something was wrong. Yeah. So one of the things that has to be integrated into these projects from the time you're designing the project is a sustainability strategy. So beyond the life of external source investments, how is it that you're going to sustain these investments? How is it not just the investments, but the people who are involved? Because you need to continue building capacity to operate, you need to continue building capacity to sustain the functionality and the utility of these investments. And so all of these need to be enshrined in projects when they have been designed. And there needs to be flexibility in terms of the print so that as you begin to implement, if there is need for shifting things around that you should be able to do that to cause the project to be successful. Acting Deputy Director of the Services in Fowen. Yes, sir. What's your vision? My vision for the department is that we'll be able to have a greater level of engagement of stakeholders and to respect it and to integrate those visions into our planning and to avoid the pitfalls of planning from top down. There's some top down thinking that has to come into play because we are assessing the data. So we need to share that information with the public and let the public take decisions as to which areas they feel comfortable investing in so that when they make those investments, there's not this entitlements in their minds or reliance on the public post, but that they will see themselves as entrepreneurs pursuing their own investments. And of course government will provide the safety nets required. So in the case of disasters, in the case of fallouts, there will be something to fall back on. Internally, I think we have a lot of work to do in terms of the capacity. Agriculture was once upon a time deemed as one of those ministries if the highest level of academia and technical people. That is not the case anymore. And so we need to review that because as I've said before, I'm suspecting in the near future we'll have to be recruiting agricultural technicians from regional sources, from some of the regional territories. And so to all the young persons out there, there are opportunities for professional development in agriculture. I encourage students to study agriculture, the sciences, the agronomy, the botany, the horticulture. Because we have come to the end of the program. But so much, there's so much, agriculture is so dynamic. And then the things we need to avoid the units working in silos. We need to work together. Thank you for being here, Mr. Zabatis. It's a success and I know you'll succeed in, I know it's challenging, but it is challenging, but thank you for the opportunity. You've been viewing agriculture on the move. I will thank you for having the program. Please continue to review this program because we are bringing you information as far as agriculture is concerned and fisheries and the rest are concerned. I'm Philip Sidney saying goodbye and see you again.