 Okay, it's Think Tech, it's Community Matters, I'm Jay Fidel, and the magic word of the day is Joshua Cooper. Hi, Joshua. Aloha, how are you? I'm good. You are into human rights. You teach a course, you're a lecturer at UH Manoa doing that. You've spent a lot of time in studying the subject, thinking the subject. And I want to compliment you because I think we all need to do that. But the question is why do you do it? If you wake up one morning and say, oh my God, I'm late, I got to get involved in human rights. Did somebody talk to you? What happened? No, I think I was probably growing up in why and I sort of planted the seeds when you get to see how your world works and then definitely growing up in why and I living in why and I but probably commuting and taking the bus to UH. You kind of see the two worlds of Hawaii and I think what's important also is, it's also what I was studying in college, it's what I was doing in high school. It's really in everyone's blood. If you look at every song that's written, it's either about love or it's about revolution and making a difference and finding meaning and purpose in life. So I think it's a universal story many people feel. I think one thing that might separate me is people, it's always struggle how to do it and how to get involved in what you can do. And so for me, I just got lucky in that I was always involved in student government and newspaper writing and journalism of political science either writing the news or making the news. And more importantly, I realized we're all in this world together no matter where we're at. Wow, there's an answer to my question. How long you've been doing this. Probably decades, two, three decades. Yeah, wow. And it's a life mission for you. You're not going to stop Joshua. No. In fact, even with COVID I'm even getting more busy. I'm just zooming. So I have meetings in Australia. I just got off a meeting with San Francisco in New York, and I got a meeting this afternoon, focusing in Geneva. And one good way is I get to make a world of difference from my bed now which is a little different before where you'd have to sort of prioritize where you're going and what you're doing. But no, I would love to retire. You know, when we get to world peace and everyone has human rights, then, you know, I can settle down and study some languages and build up my ukulele skills. You're working to make yourself obsolete. In human rights work. One of the things you love to do is if you can actually make yourself not be employed. That's one of the benefits that no longer have to worry about a human rights harm. And everyone has their rights respected and you're like, sweet, I made myself unemployed, and the world's a better place. So that's how we're going to unpack that Joshua. I got a couple of questions that come to mind with it. You know, you make me think of a guy who is connected to the world with zoom or some like program, and it comes down from the ceiling and when you wake up. It looks right at you, and you're on zoom it follows you around wherever you go you go to the kitchen. There's one there and it's a seamless connection. The world, you know, can see you because it's coming. I know zoom is expanding into our lives in our society. But second question is, so you're on the phone all these people in various places. What are you talking about? Is it are you making a movement here? Is this an activist thing, or do you just want to schmooze and find out what's going on in terms of a human rights and be anti human rights. Yeah, no so the call I was just on is for the universal periodic review. And what's exciting is the world agreed in 2008 that every country would have a human rights record reviewed every four and a half years. And so the United States will be reviewed on November 9 the week after the election so perfect timing so to speak. But I was working with the ACLU director of human rights program Columbia University, the US human rights network, and people who are directly impacted their human rights have been violated who are now active and involved in part of the solution they consider themselves human rights defenders but also human forces. And the other aspect is working on the issue of climate change and sustainable development so human rights was definitely important and it's crucial. And the big terminology now is also sustainable development goals the UN 17 goals. We have our own aloha plus challenge with six goals. And that one is about when at the federal level, they do not do what they should do. Then we can also organize at the city level, because so many human rights issues are at a local level that we can be being born be involved to make a difference so in Hawaii we're doing a voluntary local review at the UN General Assembly at the end of the month since it's September now, you're going to do that. Yes, be partnering Hawaii green growth and many different public private partners coordinating together to come up with a sustainable future for Hawaii. This is not easy. What's in your toolkit. I mean you say you want to take action on this that and the other thing. You know it's nice to have meetings and Lord knows there's enough meetings but what do you do. In fact in action what what what what tools and points of leverage do you try to out of your toolkit. It's good to have a lot of tools in your toolkit. Too many people see it's a problem and only have hammers, but even a hammer has the other side that you can take the nail out with. And I have a very vast toolkit that is direct action and diplomacy I say that's the two parts of my toolkit and if the government's good. You got to focus on the diplomacy if the government's not where it should be you have to use the direct action. We all work together it's peace and human rights and so for the UPR the first thing we do is talk to people, explain what it is talk to about their human rights most people don't know. Eleanor Roosevelt and American chaired the Commission on human rights to create the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. We see a real deficit in education as far as civics goes. So it's, it's people are just shocked to know what the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is know how it overlaps with our Constitution and bill of rights. And what do not only what's wrong but I think what's important about human rights, it's proactive and participatory it's what do you want. So I see a whole new segment of society you never engage with politics, take it from a human rights based approach, coming in as solutionaries, seeking change that they want, and not just dwelling on what's wrong but what they really want. And the good news is when you have that. You take that to the UN, and they're the ones that put the questions recommendation so in a way you kind of a state sandwich you have the grassroots of IE coming up from the ground and the global and you squeeze together just to make the truth a little bit better. And I remember that word. The UN that's the one that Trump defunded. That's the one where the Human Rights Commission is not only populated by but chaired by the Chinese who have a very special experience with human rights in in Xinjiang in the West with the Uyghurs. I mean, how can that be about there so on a good front. The UN has many different parts. So, and we can talk about so he definitely wanted to defund the World Health Organization, not the brightest idea when your country has the highest rate of COVID cases and deaths so not smart. You'd want to connect and hear from other countries on how they do it and learn lessons so that's just one reason why multi lateralism matters and how we need leadership because we need our leader bill to connect the dots and understand consequences. How do you how do you do that though I mean we know we have a president who's not interested in multi multi lateralism and who is he's a he's a wrecking ball. And so the question is we do call him up. One friend of mine, you know was complaining about the violation of the Hatch Act last week at the Republican Convention. I said well why don't you why don't you go to Washington and make a citizen's arrest, get on a plane, talk to those people. The problem is how do you what are you going to do what are you going to do about it with a wrecking ball. Yeah, so on a certain front. That's why human rights and we're just so valuable so it's not just political news only as a wrecking ball for recognizing it so your case you brought up of the Uighurs is a good one. I help and work with the Uighurs and we brought up this issue, probably two years ago at the UN Committee on the elimination of all forms of racial discrimination. And by bringing that case there and bringing the Uighurs firsthand to share what was going on. We were able to cut through. In the first place it was the Chinese who were using lies which our current president does as well, but they were saying, first they don't exist. Then the second one was okay but their, their education camps like technical colleges, and then now it's like, oh damn like the world knows the truth so you know we're really truth tellers and speaking truth to power. We have to go in and really challenge and being able to prove the situation and then to also point out the laws on our side. So, and what you talk about the Chinese that's not even the end of it during Ramadan they forced them to eat pork. They do all kinds of horrific things that really do play on the mind and soul of the Uighur people. It's cultural torture. What benefit did they get out of it? Is there troubling in the sense that it doesn't really help anybody? Why would they do that? I mean is the violation of human rights a kind of shodden Freud desire to hurt people, no matter what just to hurt them? I mean why do people do that kind of thing? Yeah, no I mean the root of it is it's you know it's it's to portray image of strength China plus the current administration both use it as law and order but the real thing they're forgetting is it's about rule of law and make sure we live up to those and not just using it when it's to your advantage. And so what we have been able to do with the Uighurs is that now is a global movement. There's no way that China is getting away with that the people around the world understand it. It's the same thing here is we have to always stand up for these basic rights and we also have to understand if anyone's rights are violated all of our rights are violated and we have to work together that way. And if you look at the source of human rights it's definitely in all the religions of the world but it's also after 1945 it's the end of World War II and it's that spirit of never again. We just commemorated the end of World War II. It was that spirit of never again and it was giving tools human rights are a couple of things one. It said that everyone has to work together if there's a human rights violation. That's one but the other it's also a toolkit for people to defend themselves freedom of thought freedom of speech freedom to assemble freedom of expression gathering organizing voting. These are all really the ingredients in the recipe for a moral revolution to make sure people can defend themselves in a bad state, but also the tools that we need to set up the global way of working together it's really a agreement to live with one another. You're talking about regime change in some cases then a bad state would be a state which has a regime that needs to be changed. So is it a matter of duty to somebody who believes in human rights to take steps to remove the dictator. I mean, what's happening in Belarus is very troubling. And they're coming down on people now and complete violation of any rights that people in Belarus have had before. And what's even more trouble do about that. What's even more troubling is normally the United States would be a country, Secretary of State would be there speaking for peace democracy human rights, and with the people. And now we have hypocrisy where we're doing the same thing in our streets. So we can't really speak with moral authority. And that's where human rights is so valuable. Normally only China, Russia would try to weaken human rights and use it only as a political tool and if they ever spoke out about human rights, it was to advance a nationalist agenda. And the United States isn't perfect, but at the global level, no matter which president there was this belief that fundamental freedoms of all people and if the US even didn't uphold that the people would always go in the streets and peacefully push for that. So I think what's most important is we can say it's regime change, but more important it's actually working with the people who are asking for a better life based on what they're calling for. So it's not coming in from abroad saying this is the way to go. It's what people are asking for. And the easiest way to break through it all is, would you want to live there? So when everybody ever gives me something about you don't understand it, what would you want to live in Belarus now into those circumstances and then it's like, well, that's another story. So I think that's always the easiest way if someone talks about this or that, put yourself in the shoes of the people there, and then that allows you to then organize from that point in perspective. Well, it sounds like, you know, one of your biggest toolkit items is embarrassing a country that is violating human rights and knows it at some level, it knows it. Unfortunately, a country like China is, is going to try to dampen the press. I mean, recently they arrested a TV journalist who happened to be ethnic Chinese, who was from Australia working for an Australian network they arrested her. Well, she was in China saying, wow, they're coming down on, you know, the First Amendment and I know they don't have one. They really don't have one. And I worry about that happening. For example, it's happening also in Belarus. It's probably happening in Hungary. It's probably happening in some of the dictatorships in South America. And, and are you ready for this Joshua? It's happening here. It's nuanced, but it's happening here. You can see it almost every single day. So the press is a big piece in the toolkit to deal with the deprivation of human rights. How do you deal with a dictator who is, who is withdrawing freedom of the press? Yeah, I think that was probably the most alarming part and also one of the strengths of human rights. Human rights is also a temperature taker. Because you take the temperature of a country, so we don't have to wait till you're being taken to a concentration camp and we don't have to wait until all your rights are eroded. When you start seeing a couple rights being eliminated, that's the time to take action. And so I saw it from the beginning when the press current president always attacks the media. That is a sure sign that this is definitely something we should be worried about. And yeah, as you went through all the other countries, I, in my mind I was saying unfortunately, we're shooting media, we're targeting media. We're doing similar things here. And everyone should stand up for the First Amendment. I mean, it's one of the most important pillars of human rights. You sound just like Timothy Snyder, who wrote on charity, I'm sure you're familiar with that book. You sound just like him, Joshua. So what do you take out of that book that we should all be listening to and acting on? Well, I think the good news is when you also do global human rights work, such as I'm helping a woman whose husband was disappeared, we just celebrated and forced disappearance day in Laos. It's around the world, it's world enforced disappearance day. It's to make sure that they know they're not alone. And so that's one aspect. And just to make sure that all she wants is for her to know what happened to her husband. Another case I'm working on in Laos as well is an older one where it's this amazing woman who's moved to our country. She just wants to have the bones of her father back who was a democracy advocate caring for the people of Laos in the 70s. And she can't even get the bones back. So the point is, we have definitely let our muscles sort of go a little flabby and we have not exercised what we know as civil and political rights. This is the ultimate workout right now with this current administration. And if you haven't worked out, it's time to stretch. It's trying to get flexible and nimble and be ready for the next three months, because this is time for us to realize we do have a challenge. It's about, you see it at every level saying the votes are rigged. All these different things we've had contested elections before, but you never can't it saying that before the election so we don't wait till it's too late, we need to really exercise our rights to vote we need to write more letters to the editor we need to talk to our friends. There was a huge statistic on climate change that just came out. And it said, people never even heard about climate change from their friends so it might not be what we talk about enough where you know, but this is the time when we're in lockdown to actually talk about liberty talk about liberation, talk about things of a little bit more meaning. And we have the time that we can do that now. Okay, now, so there's a million questions I have we could go on a long time and you and I are in the same thought pattern here. Demonstrations, that's really front and center these days demonstrations is the first amendment experience for sure this country has enjoyed the first amendment and demonstrations for a long time. And arguably on certain issues that has got us somewhere it has improved the public conversation and it has improved the connection with the government and maybe maybe influence government action. But where are we now with demonstrations. Where are we now with civil rights human rights and demonstrations. It really troubles me what are your thoughts. I'm alarmed because normally from the top down we talk about rule of law no matter who's in, and you might disagree with what people are doing or how we're doing it but you don't organize actively to keep the fire burning in fact you don't put more gasoline on it. And when you see the action today of wanting to go to Kenosha when everyone in Kenosha says don't come. That just shows it's always about that person and that's what we have to cut through we have to realize first and foremost everybody has the right to peacefully protest and assemble. We've seen the president come out and try to quash that for a photo op the Episcopal church across that street I've been there many times when in Washington DC. They contacted me after that happened and want me to bring their case to the UN Human Rights Council which you referred to, because they want the world also know what happened how it happened and as first hand witnesses. And you know, it's, it's interesting because you would never encourage people to go out with arms to face off against people and the statements the only ones I can just say today that are just so alarming is when the one person goes there and shoots two people, you say that person was good and going there to protect property. He was in another state he didn't live in protecting property he never knew about before. And it really does point out that the the biggest pandemic we do have is racism. There's a lot of great human rights language. The convention on the elimination of all forms of racial discrimination has a great article five, it has every letter in the alphabet, but that's another show for us. But you know it's getting to that point that we have to really, I don't think we're going to get to the indigenous level of seeing the birds you can hear in the background as our feathery brothers and sisters and seeing the life force in the waves and the air like indigenous do, but we have to recognize we're all human. And that's the other problem. It's a constant dehumanization of the other. And that is what led to all those wars. And the scary part is you see the marchers around the world on fascism, having a lot in common yet. They also go against multilateralism and saying they only care about their people but it's the far right of all groups that are the most detrimental to our society that we have to stand up against. Because most people, if you look at human rights, it's basic, you know, people want, it's not hard to understand human rights. It's easy for you to have human rights for yourself. It's easy for you have human rights for your family. Sometimes you extend it to your community and most of times it stops at the national border, but really around the world we recognize everybody wants to have a to be loved everybody wants to have a family everybody wants their children do better than themselves. And I think a good one was went to Marsalis came out with a new album called the low funky ever funky lowdown and he's like, we got a concert and what's real you know we're just getting distracted. And the people who are saying all the problems don't have the money or the power to be able to create those problems. So we got to keep our eye. What we always did in journalism follow the money and not follow the chaos and this current administration loves chaos because you can't concentrate. They say as much. So I like to talk about boundaries for a minute, you know, human rights is a very broad term. And when you say human rights, I think of I way way the movie human flow. And I think of 70 million people who are behind Bob wire today and have no prospect of getting out. There's sort of a reject of civilization, and they don't have human rights it's tragic beyond description. You know, to me that's core kind of human rights, but then you have civil rights. You have the whole war crimes experience. I guess that's human rights I mean, that's a subset of humanitarian law, but yes. We're talking about decency. I mean I decencies from what you say and crime crime in general of violation of the rights of others it's like some way that must be written down maybe in Eleanor Roosevelt, a list of these rights. Is that in her in her piece in her organization is the simplest way is exactly what you said it's decency. And then it's also a little deeper its dignity of every individual and there is a universal declaration of human rights known as the universal declaration of human rights the UD HR. And that's really the moral architecture for how we should live with one another. And there's 30 articles and the simplest way to break it down as civil political, which we know in this country really well. Freedom to vote freedom of the press right to elect our officials innocent until proven guilty. Those human are those human rights, those are human rights those are civil and political rights in the subfield and then there's economic social and cultural rights, which during Corona. You can definitely see how important they are because the first thing we said was shelter. Well that's right to housing then it's. Wash your hands that's the right to water, then it's in today's world of globalization it's the right to education about healthcare healthcare is absolutely essential, because health is wealth. When you're young you never think of it but as we all get a little bit older we realize we're maybe not as invincible. And if you don't have health you have nothing. There are millions of people in this country who don't have health care, and it breaks them it breaks them as human beings is really awful. Let me let me let me ask you a hard question. You know, one of the great great violations the most horrendous violation in humanity of human rights was was the shore. The Holocaust, and you know in the Holocaust, certainly we saw that the never again emerge out of that. They say well the US established a liberal world order and, and raised the flag on that sort of thing for how many years 75 years after the war, although Trump is doing as much as he can to undermine that now. Now there's a movie that was I saw this on, I want to say Amazon about the ACLU and I do want to ask you about the ACLU. And it was interestingly, you know it was interesting enough that they were funded they had offices they had a lot of lawyers they, they, they file a lot of lawsuits. And then they got this guy was an executive in the ACLU and he's defending Skokie number Skokie, and, and they still defend Skokie they haven't changed their, their position on that they will defend the rights of Nazis and skinheads and, along those lines the Charlottesville other, you know, as protected under. And of course when they do that people like me say, what, you know, my God, what are they telling us they want me to send the money so they can allocate some part of that to defend defending people who were Nazi armbands. Now, you know their boundaries, and I just want to know your thoughts about that. The ACLU has managed to distance itself from a lot of people I know, and I don't know why they can't get straight. It shows like a flaw in the society around, ostensibly protecting human rights but actually protecting people who would like to bring human rights down. Yeah, well, I'd say one thing I, I'm fortunate to work with people such as Jamil Dock war who's ACLU human rights director, firsthand to meet with him. And I would say someone that's definitely dedicated to human rights for all. So I mean by working experiences I could say they're consistent in working at that aspect. One thing I would say on that element of free speech. It's, there's two different sides because we're, you know, we see free speech today and fanning the flames. It's an incitement to hatred and violence. And you have free speech, but it's to a certain point till it impacts other people's lives. And it's also how we deal with one another and how we say things. So what's important with free speech, and I know the reasoning behind the ACLU and some of the actions is, if we suppressed it, it would be hidden and it would just be lurking, and it would still exist and there'd be harmful things happening and this is like let's get it on the open so we can see what people really think, and shut it down because we think it's disgusting we go against it. What we see now is people actually saying find people. There's even more alarming because it's not fine people. It is racist, it is vile, and that hatred is what creates world wars and if we don't handle it now. It will then really burn up the entire planet and we've got to understand that. And you can't allow people to be humanized. And I think when you saw Black Lives Matter and you saw what happened to George Floyd people came out to march because they said that just shouldn't happen. They're busy making money and doing all the things we do and that was the time everybody was at home and said, oh my goodness. Like that's horrible. And you had 10,000 people in Hawaii go and march in the middle of the COVID crisis, most with masks. And it was that time where I would say people have stood up throughout time in fact that's the promise of America we've never quite ever gotten to that point. And what human rights are as well. It's the baseline that we cannot allow anyone's life to fall below, but it's also horizon we have to keep aspiring to get to that keeps improving life for everyone. And so what I think we do with free speeches. We engage in debates we discuss with people we don't agree with, but we never lose the civility, and we also have to make sure that we don't violate rights by engaging in the debate and there's no way that what this current administration is doing is on the right path. But on the other hand, it's out there they're talking we have that. One thing I think it's hard for media, and hard for even activists with this administration. You just never had someone live blatantly in front of everyone's face, and you showed two videos saying you just said that and then say I didn't say that. I really have a conversation that way so that's a new challenge because every president always fibs a little because they want to look better than their latest poll number and they usually have good self deprecating humor about it. But this one is is rancid, and it's wrong. And we've got to call it out. And I'm really sad that I used to know when there was a Republican Party who stood for certain things. I can't believe it's folded and forgotten all of its other aspects of fighting communism and, you know, now seeing a president who stands more in line with China Russia. We did something recently and it'll be the last point because I know we're running out of time is Russia always talks about family values. When they try to weaken human rights against LGBTQIA China talks about rice not rights. And in the United States under Pompeo he tried to create a new commission on inalienable rights. You know so it's, it's, we're now in the party of the global countries who are trying to weaken universal standards. And I think most Americans don't know about if they would they'd stand up and do something about it. And that's why we're talking today but commission on inalienable rights is just one example of our administration going down the wrong path. Oh, we have a question let me take a moment and ask the question he was. Trump commented yesterday that he approves of Trump supporters shooting paintballs and protesters and I guess that includes pepper spray to because that's what they were doing from the trucks. Do you think Trump supporters have less compassion than others. A lot of time with human rights work we don't talk about the words we talk about the actions. And so if you see, especially unfortunately the RNC last week. There was half of these family members which just screams of nepotism which is something we should be concerned about we normally maybe have dynasties of certain names but never so much nepotism, especially when they're accusing the other party of that at the same time there's four names with Trump underneath it, but it's the actions you know you you say people are monsters you say they're not human you put them in cages, and then you want to do a naturalization ceremony so you know there's no compassion in any of the actions. It's just unfortunately election time. So I don't even know why you'd even do those things you know so it's, there's, I would love. I think everyone's human I'm not sure from the top down the leadership and how they treat others that there's definitely that's one little characteristic that's last lacking I wouldn't say their compassion champions. Joshua Cooper dedicated to human rights to teaching human rights to acting on behalf of all of us to achieve better more human rights on this planet. Thank you so much for coming down Joshua and I know we'll do this again and next time you can tell us how you really feel. Mahalo. Thank you.